Artists

Interesting read.

although for next gen to become current gen - we also need suitable hardware.
We are seeing game developers really pumping out shit that cannot possibly be run at their full potential - which is great, as they are pushing the hardware limitations to the their full extent - rather than holding back.

just say in a few years, game developers could be using their million poly models(maybe lol), instead of converting to normal maps.

wat is the average player model now? around 7000-15,000 + a normal, bump map etc?

it will be awesome to see how much they are in a few years and compare.

Next gen to me means art produced for the next, (or latest as it is at the moment) generation of console hardware. That means 360 and PS3, that means unreal 3. It's what you called the game player standpoint i guess. But i think it holds true for the vast majority of developers as well - how many developers do you know that are developing for unreal 4? several i would guess, but most i would think are looking to 360 and PS3, and many are still on 'current gen'.

I think your 'Developer's Next Gen' standpoint only applies to engine developers such as Epic or ID, becuase that's exactly where their focus is as a business.

Also i think "These models have been around now since 2003 / 2004." is a dubious comment. They may have been around since 2003/2004, but they are yet to appear on any current technology. Anyone can make a unreal 4 spec character, but if there wont be a system capable of running it for three years, will it by then be considered old work?

To me ?Next Gen? mean great graphics that don?t come at the expense of game play.

I?m sick of playing broken game?s because someone was more worried about adding poly?s to my characters boots than addressing crappy draw distance and lighting, & I?m sick of item and character that glow in the freaking dark! In a stealth game!!

Loom: To give you some idea, the character specs that we have been working on for various projects for the last 6 months, range from about 8000 - 15,000 tris with multiple 2048 textures.

LiveWire: I agree most developers would be developing for Xbox 360, PS3 and Multi-Core Processors PC's.

As for those models not appearing on any current technology your mistaken, they do run on current technology and have been able to run since the 6800 ultra (which is the minimum spec for deving with the engine) Its the 'making it fun' part thats taken all the time.

I also dont believe *anyone* can make an unreal 4 spec character - thats like saying anyone can build a computer [:)]
And from the artists perspective - yes if he or she creates something thats wont be revealed for 2 - 3 years and it stands the test of time, upon releasing it to the masses worldwide of course its old. Why would it be new ? they completed it 2 - 3 years ago [?]

Djenx: I get that comment all the time [;)] and I always answer the same way.

Making the game fun isn't my forte, I'm there to break the programmers engine and push it to the extreme [:D] whether thats for 10,000 x 150 poly characters on the screen or 4 x 50,000 poly characters on the screen. In any developer studio I'd hope artists create solid art, the programmers write solid code and designers make games fun to play, with a bit of inter-mixing for good measure.

Dont get me wrong, I have to agree with you ultimately Id rather play a game that could keep me entertained - because awesome art holds up for a few minutes / hours and thats about it. I expect more from my game purchases !

But perhaps that 'Graphics Versus Gameplay' discussion warrants a thread of its own [;)]

The term itself implies a moving target. I guess my idea of 'next gen' is something that *cannot* be done on the Xbox/PS2/PC(Pixel Shader Model 1). Anything which is physically unfeasible on those platforms is only feasible on the next generation of platforms, hence...

quote:I also dont believe *anyone* can make an unreal 4 spec character - thats like saying anyone can build a computer
Well, I didnt mean that litterally, figure of speach man! figure of speach! [:)]

I agree with mcdrewski here.. its a moving target and I think a 'clean' definition (without getting into model specs) is something that simply cannot be done on current hardware/consoles. And by "can not" I mean keeping a good 30fps! :P ...well, X360 and PS3 are pretty much current now.

I mean, last year I was using "next-gen" stuff... ie. parallax occlusion mapping, 2048x2048 textures, HDR, SSS and PRT, Spherical Harmonics, 14texture lookup terrain shaders, 1'000'000vertex on screen scenes... but as the year went on, by July 05, I saw that 1hr Sony PS3 conference and immediately felt like an old-timer with outdated gizmos.

And now on the horizon is DirectX 10, the PhysX accelerators are out.

There'll always be the graphics race... and I do love getting my hands dirty with new rendering techniques, but in my opinion none of these advancements have been used for gameplay yet. What I'm looking forward to (hoping?) is that next-gen gameplay ideas will come along... instead of devs constantly pumping out the cliches with a texture, lihgting and mesh revamp.

I went off on a bit of a tangent there we my High-poly boot comment, didn?t mean to blame the artists for doing their job[:X]
It?s those damn level designers that are causing the problem[:D]

But back on track. In times like these it's becoming very difficult to classify artwork into generations; even content on consoles could be broken into separate generations as developers become more familiar with the hardware. What about 2d games, should they be seen as inferior or last gen compared to 3d games, graphics wise?

Never winter nights 2 3d
[url]http://www.atari.com/nwn2/_assets/ss/13_OldFarm_md.jpg[/url]

Sacred 2d
[url]http://www.pc.sk/drivers/hry/clanky/sacred/sacred_big13.jpg[/url]

quote:But perhaps that 'Graphics Versus Gameplay' discussion warrants a thread of its own

I'm looking forward to it [;)]

Good comment Djenx,

No I dont dont think next gen art is soley linked to 3d. The way I look at it is using or experimenting with new techniques in order to achieve something artistcally that hasnt been achieved yet. Back a couple of years back XIII even though not an ounce of realism involved to me back that I would consider it a masterpiece and therefore worthy of the 'next gen'

Making stuff look prettier and prettier and prettier will soon get fairly boring and the cycle will start anew it will be ultimately the creativity that prevails, not the ability to wrap a character in a photo or photos you took down at the mall of some bystanders.

Bring on the days when ingame graphics look like the WOW intro!!! - I'll be happy and stop these pointless rants [:D]

quote:Bring on the days when ingame graphics look like the WOW intro!!!

I agree, but only because maybe then publishers will finally let us work on gameplay and story arcs!! lol.

This is a great example of what next-gen should be!
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-Qw1ClCVN8&search=super%20mario%20galax…]

Yep, sadly we have a new 'post-modern' in Next GEN.

So we have post-post modernism. And next, NEXT next-generation.

I have already had to use 'no, I mean NEXT gen' in meetings and it gets annoying that our cutting edge gets relegated to an inflection.'

I think developers would want to see a little bit of everything,
you never know what you might be asked to work on. [;)]

Yeah, I reckon just gather as many different types as you can think of and i'm sure they'll narrow down what they want to see and what they don't need to see.
It's better to have too much than not enough!
-Parka

If you're talking about in a portfolio, think of it in terms of range of animation instead of specific animated actions. It's more helpful to guage a persons abilities from a range rather than a grab bag of idles/deaths/attacks - after all, your ability is what an employer seeks to assess you on.

To clarify, think of a range of animation, like subtle expression through to large full body actions, and then derive the specific animations from that. Even if it's just two completely polar types of animations which are done well, it's much better than 20 good idle and walk cycles. An example, you might do:

- subtle nervousness (like a suspect being questioned by the police). Fidgeting, eyes wandering, erratic blinking, twitchy and jerky head movements... it's all subtle yet very communicative of emotion.

- large acrobatic and full body feat (think over-the-top kung-fu opera style acrobatics). Expressive movement, transfer of weight and motion. All about large scale mass and motion.

hope this helps

Can I just say... that was a big help. I mean, I wasn't even the one asking for help in the first place, but i'm building my portfolio at the moment and was kind of stumped mysefl exactly what to do, but that seems like a very, very good idea.
Thank you!
-Parka

Thanks for the info J.I. Styles.

I would also like to share what I've learned from 'Career Animation Forum' (which was held in Federation Square, Melbourne) 20 seconds of quality smooth animation is enough, than showing a serious of animation that could probably last a minute or more.

Because the 3D industry in Australia is so small, you should specialise on atleast 2 areas in 3D e.g animation, rigging, modelling etc.

Sorry for replying so late.

Btw, check out some of the answers in my interview with [url="http://www.sumea.com.au/sarticle.asp?art_ID=2147"]Lachlan (animator) from Pandemic[/url].

Thanks for the link Souri. That was indeed helpful.

the impression I got from a recent Digital Labours Federation Talk (that included staff from Rising Sun Pictures and ex RatBag) was that quality over quantity was the key- more than any other factor when they view a show reel. so I would say choose one aspect of one topic that you have mentioned and spend a sh*tload of time getting 1 or 2 really killer animations together.

I agree, but it really depends where you are applying, which really sucks!!!!!

You sick, perverted and twisted puppy. At least MacOSX is a kinda sorta unix and has some open source bits in it. You should be running Maya on Linux on that Macbook

Now you can use the age old eletist quote while holding a mug with the apple sign on it. "I use a mac because I'm better then you are."

Veva la max

does anyone else appreciate the irony of those mac adds about "inducting" as it were the intell chip so it can "perform new and exciting tasks"... like run windows... again...

still, variety for the win!

Found a nice app to make that MacBook far more useful [;)] from slashdot
quote:
Petey_Alchemist writes "SomethingAwful.com forum goon isnoop has developed a useless but fun app that takes advantage of the new sudden motion sensor available in Macbooks. The MacSaber 1.0 causes your Macbook or Macbook Pro to whoosh and crash like a lightsaber depending on how you swing it around. The reviews from those who have installed it say it is quite fun--although there is some concern about whether or not 'lightsaber battles' fall under warranty."

http://isnoop.net/blog/2006/05/20/macsaber-turn-your-mac-into-a-jedi-we…

The site is sufferring the usual consequences of the slashdot effect right now, you may have to wait a day or two...

C'mon, I know there's plenty of those in the industry here. How about an answer? [:)]

Hey Turkey,

Weve had anywhere from 2 days right through to 4 working weeks to model / uvw map / build high poly / normal map / texture / rig full characters.

I wont speculate on the times ive heard from studios, but taking into account each model needs to be iterated upon and is in various stages of development I would guess somewhat the same amount of time or even longer.

How long is a peice of string? [:P]

Guess its all relative... what quality you're after, texture resolution, amount of bones, complexity of rig, complexity of normalmap, complexity of materials (ambient occlusoin, specular, HDR IBL map, height?), availability of modeling tools (like Polyboost to speed up work), speed of studio tools (is a ragdoll a nightmare to setup?).... etc!

In "the industry" you're given these specifics with a deadline depending on what is required for that particular model. You simply cannot put a "this is how long it takes" blanket answer on it.

Apologies if this gets a bit long winded, but I'll try and give you some solid answers. I'll give a high and low range that I'll usually work at, so should be a fairly good ballpark figure range for what's acceptable/expected in "the industry". Note these ranges I don't rig or animate or set up engine exports for these, just character and creature model/tex.

low end asset budget:
1000 - 2000 tri's
1 512x512 diffuse
= ~10-12 hour turn around, so assume 1 1/2 standard working days.

high end asset budget:
6000-10000 tri's
1 2048x2048 diffuse
1 2048x2048 spec
1 2048x2048 normal
high poly normal source mesh (usually don't go over 2million tri's since low level details are fine to bump in with zbrush)
= ~45-60 hours -- depending on the complexity can keep you occupied for a whole standard work week or two.

These ranges are still ballpark figures and completely reliant on specs, revisions, and technical complexity, but should be a good average ground. An example here is material complexity -- texturing a 'next gen' character with 3 basic texture passes can be done in a day, but a character with 5 or 6 passes is a 2-3 day turn around plus any revisionary passes; simply because there's diffuse, rgb specular, gloss, translucency, glow, and normal map detailing. It's quite surprising how much extra work it is to balance out every map against one extra map pass.

Last thing I'll say is usually you don't get the luxury of defining your own deadline since you're working to the project schedule. As an artist you need to figure out how best to manage that time and employ time saving techniques to keep a comparable high quality. That comes with experiance, so don't sweat it if you don't feel up to it yet! good luck! [:)]

edit: simplified my examples to make a bit more sense and made them more generic so you can gauge it better.

i think maybe Deep Exploration by Right Hemisphere will import, but im not sure.
I wanted to import .x files a few days back but only for reference purposes. i just use a viewer, and there are plenty of them.
i picked up this one for free use:
http://www.teamxtcgames.com/3d_object_viewer.htm

*cough*

hhhhmmmm..ok, well I might just go 1400tris and a 256 and 128 texture.

I havn't tryed importing from maya yet, if you were using max i could help [:?]

I've just got a new computer and nothing's installed yet, but once i get maya and unreal back up and running i'll have a look for you. What version of maya are you runing?

quote:Originally posted by LiveWire

I havn't tryed importing from maya yet, if you were using max i could help [:?]

I've just got a new computer and nothing's installed yet, but once i get maya and unreal back up and running i'll have a look for you. What version of maya are you runing?

I'm Using Maya7 Personal Learning Edition..it's the only version for free that they let you download.

Yeah I've used maya to build entire levels for unrealEd..

this could be your problem

if you are using two textures on a model for instance there is one thing you do have to do for it to work in the editor correctly..

unrealED won't export or pickup more than one uv set for a model.. so you'll have to combine or collapse you're uv's into one set ( the base set ) and then apply your materials on a selection basis..

on export it only picks up on the materials applied not the sets..
so when in the editor when you are linking in your materials the editor figures out what goes where.. and youre done...

I guess in your case.. make sure you only have one uv set per object.. cause it looks like you might be applying your texture to the wrong one..

anyhow.. let me know how you go..

quote:Originally posted by Me109

Yeah I've used maya to build entire levels for unrealEd..

this could be your problem

if you are using two textures on a model for instance there is one thing you do have to do for it to work in the editor correctly..

unrealED won't export or pickup more than one uv set for a model.. so you'll have to combine or collapse you're uv's into one set ( the base set ) and then apply your materials on a selection basis..

on export it only picks up on the materials applied not the sets..
so when in the editor when you are linking in your materials the editor figures out what goes where.. and youre done...

I guess in your case.. make sure you only have one uv set per object.. cause it looks like you might be applying your texture to the wrong one..

anyhow.. let me know how you go..

It doesn?t go well. I've looked over my meshes UV I only have the default set named [map1] and in unrealED there?s only one texture allocation. I'm using the default Lamert material with the texture under the colour property. Everything is at it's default and after I made the mesh I layed out the UVs using automatic mapping to start with and planner mapping any sides that needed it.

I'm pulling my hair out here. It?s not the tagra file or unrealED I think. I think I?m missing something important in maya.. The book ive read to learn how to to all this is for maya5 so maybe something important has changed since then. I have no idea.

Again guys. I've provided as much info as i can give.. Anyone got theories or solutions?

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Yeah everything looks in order as far as maya is concerned..

It won't be your texture causing the problem.. it either goes into unrealED or not...

in the past I've had problems with using exporters.. if I was you I'd try a different exporter..

[url]http://udn.epicgames.com/Two/ActorX[/url]

Grab the ActorX off the UDN site.. I never had a problem with this one

[url]http://udn.epicgames.com/Two/ActorXMayaTutorial[/url]
A tutorial to get it up and running..

hope that gets ya up and running...

quote:Originally posted by Me109

Yeah everything looks in order as far as maya is concerned..

It won't be your texture causing the problem.. it either goes into unrealED or not...

in the past I've had problems with using exporters.. if I was you I'd try a different exporter..

[url]http://udn.epicgames.com/Two/ActorX[/url]

Grab the ActorX off the UDN site.. I never had a problem with this one

[url]http://udn.epicgames.com/Two/ActorXMayaTutorial[/url]
A tutorial to get it up and running..

hope that gets ya up and running...

*chuckles* Unless Actor X is made for the maya7PLE the plug-in manager wont allow for the ActorX program to be executed.

"Error: The plug-in could not be loaded since it was not built specifically for this version of the Personal Learning Edition"

Gotta love cheepness XP

although your probably right. I'm currently using "unEditor"

Doh!

Good times abound! I got a another version of Maya that could use ActorX and tryed it out.

IT WORKED. I imported a static mesh with an alpha texture into unrealED.

With this obstacle solved i can continue producing my folio level.

Thnaks for the help Me109

Ahhhhh good work Caroo... Happy level building to ya!!

glad to be of help ;)

I highly recommend downloading some 3D Buzz video tutorials on Maya. I'm a Max guy and just watching the introductory tutorial video on Maya that came with my copy of Unreal Tournament 2004 (made by 3D Buzz), I was able to get the jist of Maya pretty quickly. The beginner video tutorials will explain to you the interface and some simple concepts to get you going, and they have plenty of intermediate to advance videos as well.

http://www.3dbuzz.com/vbforum/sv_dl_tr.php

You have to register an account before you can download, and I think you'll only be able to download one or two video files to start with.

I think video tutorials are a much easier and faster way to learn 3D than reading books and web tutorials, so give it a go!

Ay Lloyd. I didn't know you were rendering ur normals in max when you told me this.

Have you tried rendering them out in Zbrush?

Might just revive this thread rather than starting a new one:

I've been at this for hours and after following two tutorials, including the one included with max 8, i've only managed to get this working once, and since then i've been able to replicate it. Either max's normal map rendering/displaying is unbelieveably un-userfriendly I am simply and idiot who cant figure out their countless options and obscure settings. Autodesk would probably claim the latter.

anyway, i'm trying to render out a normal map in max, and then apply it to the model usnig max 8's directX 9 shadder.
I've been following the max help file tutorial and [url="http://www.poopinmymouth.com/process/normal_workflow/normal_workflow.pdf"]this one by Ben Mathis[/ur] (pdf link).

I'm trying this simply on a low poly sphere and high detail sphere with noise on it for the high detail model.

So far 99% of the time i manage to render out the normal map i end up with one side odf the mnodel comletly black when the shadder is applied (the side facing away from the camera). It is not the lighting information or texture as far as i can tell - the only map applied is the normal map in the bump channel.

Once, ONCE it all worked fine and i had a perfectly normal mapped noisy sphere without any dark bits, but dispite my best efforst i havnt been able to do that again, which is strange because i dont remember changing any settings.

does anyone know why this is happening? or better yet are there any specific settings i should know about? any that must be on, etc? any help would be much appreciated since, as you can probably tell, this is starting to get to me[:(!]

No worries, moments after posting this i figured it out. I had the Projection Mapping Options set to World space (as per the Max tutorial) rather than Tangent (as per the other, unoffiliated tutorial).

I guess i shouldnt be surprised that the max tutorial failed to mention the effects and/or importance of this option, i remember now why i gave up trying to follow these tutes when i was learning 3D...

yep, thats a pretty critical difference there!

$!&%!%#$(*(&@@#!

Translation: Im in normal mapping hell

I suggest learning about what normal mapping is and how it works, understanding its benefits and uses before delving into working on them with tools.

Livewire - if you had known the difference between tangent and world space before hand you would have know that was the problem, and fixed immediately.

Having been a complete n00b to normal mapping 2 years ago this resource I found absolutely invaluable. Cheers Ben!

http://www.monitorstudios.com/bcloward/tutorials_normal_maps1.html

Normal mappings a breeze - I dont know what you younguns are complaining about, youve got normal mapping tools right there inside your 3d program to play with!!!! 2 years back we had programs like ORB and others which required DOS action and commands to render the things! They where extremely temperamental and half of the time simply crashed for no good reason.

Well "one" of the probs Im having the moment is trying to generate the normal map with render to texture in max 7.
Here are hte models...
[img]http://members.optusnet.com.au/~rowanfamily/general/nm1.jpg[/img]

Here is the cage and render setup..
[img]http://members.optusnet.com.au/~rowanfamily/general/nm2.jpg[/img]

and here is the resulting normal map...(ignore the uv layout, its just a quicky to test out the normal map)
[img]http://members.optusnet.com.au/~rowanfamily/general/nm3.jpg[/img]

..what the fudge is going on with it! Is it the cage? it looked fine enough in that pic above. Ive tried pushing it up a little but that doesnt do anything. Ive ran STL checks on the meshes and they came up fine. Ive got global supersampling set to 2.5
And the part that does render out ok, is filled with all this crap all over it.
What the fudge is going on?!?!?

ok, silly stuff out of the way first.
You do have the two heads occupying the same space when you're doing the ripping right? not side by side like in your presentation?
Second, click the options button, turn off ray miss check (the red) and make sure you don't have include working model checked.

Yep done that, still no luck.
Here they are overlapping each other. the pink is the low poly.
[img]http://members.optusnet.com.au/~rowanfamily/general/nm4.jpg[/img]

And here is the normal map result
[img]http://members.optusnet.com.au/~rowanfamily/general/nm5.jpg[/img]

ugh

well that's fixed the ray penetration, now it looks like a null ray hit issue -- I'd suggest checking your projection modifier (use one if you're not already) and making sure everything's facing the right way, and is in the volume. Post it if you're not sure.

Here is what the cage looks like.
[img]http://members.optusnet.com.au/~rowanfamily/general/nm6.jpg[/img]

hmm, no obvious thing on first look, tell you what -- if you're interested, post the file and I'll take a look and get you a fix in a little bit.

Nah, dont worry about it :)
Ive got to finish off the rest of the models anyways, so I will probably run into more trouble then...fun, fun, fun!

Crikey... I know people who plagiarise aren't particularly smart, but to use Mullins? He's got some good art there, but after knowing what I know, I question if it's actually his or not. And that's gotta be the worst blemish he can get for the rest of his artistic life.

Remember kids: Just say no.

Sorry, are you questioning whether Craig's work is his or not? I'm a tad confused by your post. How is this a blemish against Craig Mullins?

If you read the thread that Souri refered to it appears an artist did a very nice picture, and as you troll through the thread a poster put the picture that the artist did over a picture of Craig Mullins and then cut holes in it.

Basic jist - the picture the artist posted appears to be a paint over of one of Mullin's works. Maybe if you read the thread it'll clear up what the statements above are about?

I read the thread Jacana and understood it. My point was that Brian's post was worded in such as way that it seemed he was referring to Craig Mullins. To top it off the plaigarist is a she not a he.

That's all but yes i've got it really. :)

Ahh ok :) I just thought you were confused about the response (rather than as a response to the thread)!

hehe , thats the internet for you.

Over @ CDG a collegues AK47 model and skin was used in the LORD of War movie(featuring Nicolas Cage) for the DVD Menu. Without permission of course.

What about games plagiarizing other games? I'm not talking about the art side (where it is obviously happening) but on a gameplay point of view. There are a number of genres and its ok for a game to dip into them and take stuff but sometimes it goes too far.

For example, how many GTA clones have you seen in the past 2-3 years? Thats right... heaps! Now its not wrong to take many elements of a great game like GTA and put it in your own, but when you deviously try to make it exactly the same (same setting, same language, same violence) then it becomes despicable. Look at True Crime, its a total rip-off gameplay-wise and it also sucks. They cant even match the great gameplay of GTA games. Actually, no GTA clone since GTA3 has matched it aside from the 2 GTA sequels.

I was reading a new review of the new PC release of Driver3, again a GTA rip-off and a bad one to boot. As a designer if I was in a position to make such a game I would at least try and differentiate slightly or add new gameplay elements that would work. I'd also try to stray away from the whole gangsta/mafia stuff, its been done to death in the space of 3-4 years with only a couple being good enough. I hear EA just released The Godfather, a GTA-esque mobster game using that particular universe. Its cool, its a rip-off to an extent but at least they aren't pretending, its a game based on a great mafia movie. Cliche but its ok. But please stop doing it!!! There seems to be no imagination at all.

Now watch all the unimaginitive MMO's that will be released in the next year or 2 running off the success of WoW. Just watch the craze!

/end rant

Just been listening to a few of these, and passing on the recommendation for people to tune in. Some really nice nuggets in there. Has gotten me thinking, which is always good. Thanks for sharing Kratos!

Just FYI, I found Juice to be a great podcast receiver (http://juicereceiver.sourceforge.net/)

Been listening to this also. Thanks for the link Kratos. It have me a bit of a boost.

No problem. We all need a good boost every now and then to keep us going :)

There are some "free" music packs and loops from [url="http://www.incompetech.com/m/c/royalty-free/"]Incomptech website[/url] which I stumbled upon when looking at some other pages on their site.

For 3D - Maya PLE, GMax and XSI Lite each have no direct export capability at all (afaik) unless you use [url="http://ogle.eyebeamresearch.org/"]some dodgy hack[/url]. That basically leaves [url="http://blender.org/cms/Home.2.0.html"]blender[/url] which is scary.

For 2D - [url="http://www.gimpshop.net/"]GIMPShop[/url] is a free similar-enough-to-photoshop tool that might be ok.

Wings 3d as the name implies is a 3d program. Dont know too much about it apart from its free.

have you checked out http://www.devmaster.net/engines/ ?
you even get a 'Top 10 Open Source Engines' at the front page :)

I just [url="http://www.smh.com.au/news/breaking/kiwi-freebie-digitial-paint-tool-ta…"]read this at smh.com.au[/url]

[url="http://www.ambientdesign.com/artrage.html"]Artrage 2[/url] is sorta like Painter, there's a free version, and it's made by Kiwi's.

It's been a while since I've looked, but I'm sure there are plenty of free 2D pixel paint programs on the PC similar to Deluxe Paint on the Amiga.

thanks for the help everyone, I'm looking into some of them now.

wonderland just had a post which looks like it [url="http://feeds.feedburner.com/Wonderland?m=758"]links to huge amounts of poublic domain music resources[/url] for machinama

There's quite a number of ways to do this, and it sounds like you're using path follow as a modifier which definitely isn't the method you want to use here -- instead, under the motion panel, change your controller to a path constraint, or under trajectory sub panel under the motion panel you can convert spline to keyframes using the spline conversion tools.

sure.. you could retarget from one skeleton to another.. or the best way of doing it is with character sets and then using the trak editor to export and import animation clips..

people usually triangulate for games.. where they want a model to tri strip as efficiently as possible.. when the model does this well it can be computed quicker.... so better performance in games..

Thanks mate, I'll post here again to let you know how it turns out.

I don?t know how you mean by using the trax editor to import export animation clips. I?m not familiar with it.
I?ve been using the character mapper, then the graph editor to copy animation curves but the animation is not accurate.

I hope the next version of Maya has the GATOR tool like XSI 5 has. This GATOR tool allows you to copy information from a model to another such as; the UV mapping, texture, rig, and animation with just a couple of clicks.

I'm sure maya can do it. I've heard of Jason Schliefer creating a script that sort of did the same thing, it copies info from a low poly rig to a high poly one. You might want to go over to cgtalk

You have to make a character set before you can use the trak editor.. once you have done that you can create a clip of the keys on the timeline.. and then export and import..

of course you have to have an identical character set on the target rig.. and it works best if your rigs are the same.. you can also retarget the skeleton..

I'm not sure if this works.. you can also export your character as FBX and when you import.. you import the animation only..

Thanks again. I'll let you know how it turns out.

To ninothe; A script that copies animation? Very Interesting. I'm on my to CG talk.

Well done 'Me109' thanks hips.

i'm pretty sure there was another thread like this a while back.

anyway, i found it so easy to switch from Max to Maya (admitedly after two weeks of pure frustration) that i think what one you learn is irrelevant. i'm sure it's handy to have an understanding of several (if you had to jump over to another one suddenly for whatever reason), but it think just being a great modeler, animator, whatever is the most important thing, and that skill can be transfered to whatever program - since all you are really learing are the new tools.

Are you a top secret Autodesk rep looking for new studios to pitch to ? [:P]

Ill chip in with our info.

We use Max 8.1 / Biped / CS2 / Various in-house tools.

Having a unique perspective on the siutuation - in our position we use the tool that suits us best, if someone needs lightwave files or maya files for example - we still use MAX and simply supply it in relevant format, testing before hand if somethings broken, we write our own exporters to fix the problem between the two programs.

quote:Originally posted by tojo
are there any studios using xsi?

The smart ones do ;)...although you won't find many in Australia, you will in the UK however.

Actually some of the larger studios use a combination of 3D software, AMH were using Maya,xsi and Max at one stage and probably still do.
There's even a few Lightwave studios about.

quote:Originally posted by tojo
have any companys switched from maya to max?

I wouldn't imagine so ;)... no disrespect but it's generally the other way around.

quote:Originally posted by tojo
do you think this is a time in game development to be a master in one or two software packages of choice, or go for the jack of all trades approach

It's difficult enough to master 1 package, therefore I believe you're much better off putting most of you effort into learning a single package as thoroughly as possible, but it's still good practice to at least have a basic knowledge of other industry standard programs.

Hi, I am over in the UK at the moment and yep there are a few lightwave and XSI studios clinging on here. God knows why.

Most unreal studios and high-end normal mapping studios I have worked with use 3dsmax because it murders maya for modelling, mapping and level work. Maya usually enters the pipeline for animation- a lot of studios I have talked to have weird combos of both. I know one studio was using maya because a couple of their guys where maya freaks, but teh team where pulling out their hair.
I know a big studio using maya that was crying recently because it couldnt do the skinning and projection tricks that max could.
Most studios seem to be using a combination of things. Modo, max, maya, mudbox mainly M programs - aint that a bit weird.

Games is really max's domain. But hey, EX-Autodesk rep here, I would say that wouldnt I?

kingofdaveness2007-03-23 11:35:49

I started on Max, moved to Maya and recently I have been playing with XSI.

Really its all irrelevant, if you can use one well then you should be able to use then all.Malus2007-03-25 01:07:47

Keep them coming. Do more. Practice practice practice! Visit here more! Find your inspiration again! Smash a guitar! Paint a guitar! Send me a guitar! LIVE DAMN YOU! LIIIIIVE!!

*cough* It's good to see you doing something again. Keep it up and don't lose the faith. @:-)

like the face of the girl, just keep going man!

Lots of thanks Brain & moonunit .. i only wish i could smash a guitar!

insteadd heres a pic of a dude burning one instead 35min
I was trying to capture the rage inside me!! [B)]
[img]icon_paperclip.gif[/img] Download Attachment: [url="http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/attached/adie/200611755951_burnG.jpg"]burnG.jpg[/url]
40.3 KB

its made me feel sort of fee for a few min.. maybe tomorow that feeling will last a bit longer if i draw a better pic [8]
still verey messy, but hey i dont have time for pollished works till i get better and faster with my coloring.

Any tips when for drawing drecty with color or colroing in sketches, like what color should i draw the sketch in to help blend shading into the color. or sothing to try and do in my next

dont use white for highlights!!!
Colour is determined by so many things, light, environment, there is soooo much info on it that it can be a little overwhelming. Do some seraching on colour theory but be be warned it can get compicated!!!
Remember though, Value is more important then colour. Get your values right and you can pretty much use whatever colour you want.

one thing for digital painting is to try and borrow from traditional methods. Ultimately, if you can visualise what you want the final to look like, you're 90% to being finished before you've even put brush to canvas (stylus to tablet?). To summarise a few practical things in this regard:

- Consider the average mood and palette; if it's a predominantly light piece, underwash with the highest point and then work back into darks. If it's a dark piece, start from the lowest point and work up. An example, your scene is a moody fantasy work, orange light and blue shadows - fill your canvas with the darker blue and work up through the orange, keeping it consistent and not being afraid to keep pieces of the underwash popping through.

- rules shmmoooolllz; there's a whole world of artists out their that have been practising their trade for the last few thousand years... learn from their example and spend at least some time learning for learnings sake. If you're trying to learn how to animate, you don't jump into a 300 man battle scene, you start with bouncy balls and understanding how motion curves work etc... with painting/illustration it's the same -- no mona lisa without countless studies and experiments. I guess the simplest way to say it is try and forget painting a painting every once in a while, and try to just do a study to learn from. If you want to learn how to illustrate hands, don't spend 5 hours on a character (that's 1 set of hands...) - instead spend 30 minutes on sketching 20 hands in different poses, you'll be amazed at how rapidly you develop. Same goes with every other concept in painting/illustration.

- try and push your bases before even considering anything else -- I'm really bad at this one unless I force myself. Try and block in forms by pure light, squint and/or zoom out and try to aim for it to look as much like your goal (or a photo) at that level before tightening anything.

- Copy others! Go have a look at http://www.artrenewal.org/asp/database/contents.asp and find some traditional artists that have spent their entire lifetimes perfecting their art (I love Bouguereau for study)... then drink of their gooey knowledge by studying them, copying them, and trying to understand them.

Thanks J.I.Styles for your time ..you have given me some verey handy points to start with , and i like your disregard for rules..heheh sorry i dont have time tonight to draw..I think ill leave my safty zone of figures and do a landcape , I'm hoping this will make me concentrate a bit more. oh yeah that artrenewal site is great havent been there befor thnaks again

thats an interesting read, was a little suprised at first when i saw the name but i dont think its actually him

You don't think its actually who ? Jack White ?

Jack Whites the front man for the two peice band the white stripes :p

haha .. yeah thats not him. The guy that wrote the article does all these paintings for gallieries and stuff.

Pretty intersting.. the art style isn't really my cup of tea but I can still respect it.

Thanks for the link Souri.

I'll have to go over this again once i have a graphics card that supports normal mapping, damn shader models[V]

Yes and yes... reactor is extremely weak for anything more than novelty grade solutions, attempt to do anything above that in terms of complexity and it loses integrity extremely quickly. The only time I've used reactor for production grade work has been the water simulation for driving the million dollars in the Blue Haven Pools million dollar ad (should be getting air time now).

Solution is either fix it or throw it...

fix it: Bump up the sub samples, go over your scene scale and mass properties with rulers and real world ballpark figures, change the euler rules and try to minimise all interframe chops (eg, mocap and bad curve types and spiking).

throw it: I don't know what version of clothfx ships with max8, we use a beta build from the guy that codes it, but I'd highly recommend using it. Real time previewing and the ability to manually pull it around just rocks. If you can spend the R&D time, you can pull off rigid and "collapsable" solutions (eg, metal solid metal pipes buckling under weight, skin and fat folds moving over skeleton etc). We've used it for quite a few projects like constantine and stalker, as well as a heap of tvc's so it's very production proven.

Is that you Joel? How's everything in Canberra?

I found I was getting twichy rigid body solutions. I also found out that the objects should be using TCB rotation controllers as reactor has difficulty with any other rotation controller type and gets that twitchy thing going on. Since changing to TCB I haven't had any problems with the rigid bodys.

Yup, 'tis I - everything's very peachy down here [:)] finding that living in Canberra and working internationally is a very nice combination!

Glad you got your fix, hope it's all good!

Short Course offering good direction seems a little unlikely imo (just cause of the nature of short courses (short/straightforward), no offence intended).
If i were you i'd go to a life drawing group, then simply look at your work for a long time after class. Just sit and look, look at it upside down, in a mirror etc. To be able to analyze it yourself is what you really have to be able to develop imo (long-term).
Also if there are good artists there you can ask them for feedback and tips.

Dear Friend,
You are right. I also think short courses can attract ordinary teachers.
Self analysis is obviously the backbone to improvement. This thread linking to the concept art webpage...

http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3291

is a great example of that. In fact, it was looking at the studio where this guy is studying...

http://www.panturastudios.com/

that made me post this thread. There has to be a teacher somewhere in Brisbane that can offer the kind of direction that makes self-analysis more focused.

I'm also planning on looking for some short art courses in Brisbane (once uni is finished for the year). Unfortunately I don't really know where to look. I did one through TAFE earlier in the year, and while the life drawing segments were good, it was generally a fairly poor class.

I suppose I should just enquire at some art supply stores and see if they can recommend any classes.

The arts academy in balmoral offers a very comprehensive life drawing course in their fine arts program, it is all from a fairly traditional old masters perspective but with an updated approach to it I guess you could say.
More along the lines of a relaxed julian ashton.

I don't have any contact details at hand but could get some if you are interested, I think currently they offer classes on the tuesday and wednesday but also run short courses in certain specific techniques in the holiday period.
The main course would be the most helpful as far as the pure basics go.

Holy crap, that looks freaking awesome!

Arn't the planning like 5 of these films or something?

I'm all for big budget fantasy epics!

Just hope they don't fall into the cookie-cutout form of most hollywood films..
Small wussy characters go on an adventure. Meet realistic CG character. Huge Battle. Small wussy characters play some key role in the outcome.

Hmmmm

I hope they do all the books..
When u see movies like this being made you have to forget the hollywood big budget connection. This, like lord of the rings, is passion and love for the stories...i think hollywood is none other than just a good source of money for so they can make them.

Wow, I just went through all 24 pages of his thread and I must say it is very inspiering.
Shows you that practice really does help. :)

That's a very nifty art journal happening there! Is always interesting to see how one improves over time.

Yeah very cool and inspiring. love the cast drawings.

inspiration? absolutly. makes me want to try that or something simular. perhaps i'll add it to my very long list of "things to get done eventually"

pheeeeeew your right, that really is quite a journey. Makes me feel ashamed i havent done enough recently :|

The later stuff reminds me of work i've seen from Florence Academy of Art students/teachers.
The pros and cons of that type of art training has been discussed a bit on sijun forums as well.

Yeh, those cast drawings are awesome. They're photorealistic and seem to pop out of the picture. I'm totally envious of the paintings that he can do as well. They look like the work of a master. [:0]

Wow, that thread is totally inspirational, thanks for posting the link. It?s simply astounding that someone can improve that much over only a few years. It?s got me fired up to keep plugging away with regular practice. Er, as soon as my exams are over in a few weeks anyway [xx(]

er, just to clarify, my comment was supposed to be a bit of a backhanded compliment.
The line of reasoning i've heard on sijun that i agree most with is 'its focused learning, (albeit/hence) narrow.'
I'm not trying to bait though. I'm a big fan of traditional art skills and spent 4 yrs at art school but eventually you do get bored with drapery/cast studies and the like.
I'd like to see some of his work that isn't studies.

Wow .. thats an awesome thread .. his still going at it today .. yeah true most of the stuff he shows is from his studies, but study or not .. its the result his been able to get with so much practice that counts. AMAZING. Someone should start a modelling/texturing thread with game objects .. that would be cool.

quote:Originally posted by Souri

Yeh, those cast drawings are awesome. They're photorealistic and seem to pop out of the picture. I'm totally envious of the paintings that he can do as well. They look like the work of a master. [:0]

That's exactly what I thought too.

"Wait, that was his drawing?!?"