Artists

ok, just found this on the alias community site:

[url]http://www.alias.com/glb/eng/products-services/product_details.jsp?prod…]

looks like it might be what i want, i'll give it a go when get home tonight.

You can go from Maya to Max by using the free FBX exporters on the Alias site, though at times they can be a little bit unstable.

A quick way to get a Maya file into an older version of Maya is by saving the file as a .ma file and opening it up in a text editor and changing the version number back to a lower number (like 6.5 to 4.0) that occurs a couple of times in the first few lines of the .ma file.

Third way is to use good old .OBJ format - it works! Not good if you have more than basic geometry.

cool, i'll try the .ma trick (i figured you might be able to do that seeing as it was just a text file, but passed it off thinking "nah, i couldn't be that simple").

If I can remember correctly, 3dsmax comes inbuilt with that functionality and will save out the skin to a specific quality/size/type. But, I haven't used 3dsmax for ages :S

you can use the 'render to texture' option on max to bake lighting into your texture. but you should paint a fiar bit of the lighting in to start with, and with higher poly models and new engines using better realtime lighting, normal mapping, and other shadders, lighting in textures is becoming less and less important.

I already know about that max can do it. I was hoping that there existed some other programs that does something similar.

what 3d package do you use?

EDIT: ahh, Wings3D according to your portfolio. never heared of that one.

if your looking for work or serious about 3d it would be a good idea to learn 3dsmax or maya. not that knowing a certain package will be nessessary to get a job (i was a max user and didnt start using maya until i was hired), but having an understanding of how either max or maya works would be a good idea none-the-less. modeling is pretty simular in both in the end anyway.

oh, and i dont know of any 3rd party program to bake in lighting

Actually I have a good understanding of maya did a course in it I just prefer to work in wings3d for the model part then transfer to Maya and do my animations and stuff there.

I was Just wondering if its possible to do lightbaking for games in maya to a texture? as alot of my knowledge of maya relates to animation and making animations that have never required lightbaking.

i have only done modeling and UV unwrapping in maya so far, so i cant help you there

I've done Prelighting using Maya on my Project which I think is a better way.
Select your object, Go to EDIT POLYGONS>Colours>PreLight (option) reset settings. OK.
Go back to EDIT POLYGONS>Colours>Paint Vertex Color Tool>Attribut Maps>Export.
Good Luck.

Sounds interesting, have to try it out sometime :)

Hey Dave,
Thanks for the tute. Have you by chance, heard anything on the grapevine about new advancements in unwrapping? Maybe for Max 8? If there are any confidentiality agreements and so forth, u can always start the sentance with allegedly. :)

/fingerscrossed

pop

It's a digital eyedropper? It will "allow people to take the color, texture and movement of any physical object and to immediately draw with that attribute". I'm not sure how useful that would really be when you can easily make the colour you want through sliders in your favourite paint package. As for grabbing textures, well, I'm sure a handy digital camera would do a better job, but I don't think a lot of people would find many practical uses for grabbing textures and painting with them.

My initial thought when I saw the picture was "awesome! They've invented a digital paint brush!", and that would be unreal. I'd love to learn how to hold a brush and paint digitally really well, with strokes and whatnot replicating what a real paint brush would do (and to not have to pay for expensive paints and oils as well while practising). I get cramped fingers when I draw/paint with the tablet pen after a short while.

I guess the digital paintbrush would be a better tool if it acted like a pen on a tablet so that you could have a large digital canvas and then paint to it normally like you would an oil canvas or something.

This paintbrush might have its uses in home decorating and areas such as that where people could select different surfaces they liked and see how they would go in their yet-to-be-made kitchen etc.

What you're asking is kind of confusing, so I hope I'm able to answer; sorry if not [:)]

You're basicly referring to a mesh's unwrapped uv(w) coordinates. To texture any mesh (besides procedurally in xyz space), you need to unwrap your mesh like that. It's the coordinates that tells how to project a 2d image onto a 3d mesh.
So, to answer your question, There's many automatic uv generation tools and apps; max has a count of 3 different individual methods (plus the many different options within those methods). Problem being, virtually every one of these utilities and methods produce innefficient, irrational, and messy uv's making them pretty much unusable for painting any texture. It may be good as a base to start stitching panels togethor, but other than that, automatic uv generation is bad. very bad [:)]

I agree with da Styles... there are some techniques that help with unwrapping, but you will still need a manual component to get paintable control. I reccomend practicing a lot using the old unwrap techniques so you get a good feel for how uvs work.

I will post a quick uv technique on another thread for you if your interested.

If you want to unfold a model that already has UVS into the shape of the uvs, look up how to paste vertex data in the channel info tool. I use this for when I have part textured a character and need to shuffle the UV layout... I paste the model into a flat plane, then edit poly it into the new layout, then render it so that I have the old parts in the new places. -its pretty fiddly stuff though :o)

After watching some discreet videos about 6 months ago - I had an inkling to setup an automatic unwrapping tool using reactor cloth simulation.

After many hours of tweaking ive pretty much got it to the point whereby you can take your section of mesh - define where you want your seem, and throw it into the simulation which has a wind modifier, some gravity, a solid flat mesh 'wall'.

The simulation blows your mesh ( it now reacts like a piece of cloth would under some high wind ) up against the flat wall, and by tweaking the 'rubberyness' factor you can get some near results albeit slightly stretched.

Not bad for an almost instant job - but still its not as fast as the traditional tools imo. Like Dave said - once youve got the hang of the traditional uvw tools - uvw really is a quick and painless ( maybe ) process.

i saw that video - it loked like fun, if imperfect. in the end it looked like it's still a quick fix. did you find it useful? or was there enough re-adjusting afterwards that it didnt save that much time anyway?

in a video tutorial by [url="http://www.poopinmymouth.com"]Ben Mathis[/url] he uses a third party program that adjusts the uvs based on the proportions of the actual faces. does a very good job too! you still have to define the inividual pieces, and you will want to adjust a bit afterwards for packin, but otherwise it looks like a great program.

Yeah, in his vid Mathis uses Right Hemisphere?s DeepUV just for its relax tool. I tried the demo of it and it?s awesome. Once you?ve unwrapped the mesh, instead of fiddling around trying to reduce the stretching you just jump over to deep UV and hit relax, then back to Max and you?ve got perfectly relaxed UV?s with no stretching. Saves a bundle of time.

But like everyone said earlier, in the end there is no real alternative to manually unwrapping the uv?s and packing them exactly how you want. Its just another skill that game artists are required to master.

The original question, though garbled, was whether automatic
uv mappers existed (I wasn't sure). This DeepUV sounds good-
especially since it doesn't distort the texture, although the
consensus seems to be that it's best to map things manually.

kingofdaveness: the tutorial you mention would be useful
to many on Sumea, although it'll probably be a while before
I'd get to work through it as I'm more of a coder (though
sometimes I have a dabble with a bit of rendering).

not sure if this helps but goto [url]http://www.3dbuzz.com[/url] there are alot of VTM (video training modules) for 3dsm not sure what version have a look around and find the ones u need for unwrapping. You 1st need to register to d/l

unwrap the parts into the blue box thing in the inwrap window.

Move that sheet over to the side so it fits in the same sized area next to the Blue box boundary.

Fit the rest of the pieces into the blue box boundary

To export; do one sheet, then move them over so the other sheet fits in the blue box. ttextporter only exports whats in the blue boundary box.

To apply 2 materials. Make a multisub object material

Select Polygon and select the whole model. scroll down to Material ID and make that 1

To make the other material ID on your model go to unwrap window. Select one sheet then press "Select Face" In the modifyer stack under Unwrap UVW.

Collapse stack

Select polygon mode, this will then have the polies already selected. Scroll down till you see set material ID. Make this ID now 2.

In the multi sub-object, load your textures in. apply to your model. If the textures look broken, swap the materials around on the Multi sub object. When that happens it just means you have them on the wrong material id. Swapping them over in the material editor will fix that.

You may need to move your UVW's again in the unwrap window to match them to the texture you exported, as when you were exporting you were moving your UVW's to the Blue boundary box. When moving your UVW sheets in and out of the box, hold down shift and drag, this will only move it in one direction, helping to keep them on the same horizontal plane :)

I hope that helps. I hope its legible o_O

after many times moving the uvs back and forth to export in texporter, i finally spoted an option to select which id you want to export. so if you have your ids defined before you begin unwraping, you can unwraping both in the same space and switch between them any time.

to break down the process I usually take:

-make a multi/sub material with different obvious colours (or the base colours)

-apply the mat id's on the mesh in the right place

-select by mat id's and detach to seperate objects to seperate the maps (just for the purpose of having seperate unwraps for each id)

-unwrap each id into their proper respective blue boxes

-after you're happy with the unwraps, attach the objects back togethor and weld all verts at a .001 or lower threshold (unless there's specific areas that need to have verts sitting on top of each other un-welded)

-texport wires (white edging) and blocking (solid whites for masks to keep the map clean) by mat id's.

-texture!

-assign the respective maps into the proper id's on the multi/sub

oooooouch my head is going to explode!
...thank you for the tips, I think they might make sense as a progress with the unwrapping and have the program open infront of me :)

I think a simple way to say it is that you need to detach half the polys to create 2 separate meshes, then apply a seperate texture to each mesh, then re-attach them. Is this right guys?

I didn?t have a clue what to do either, and I?m still not sure if it was the right way to do it. But the way I worked it out was to make a simple cube mesh, unwrapped the 6 sides, packed 3 sides into one space in the edit uv window, and the other 3 sides packed into a different space, then selected one of the 3 sides and detached them (creating 2 meshes). I could then apply a separate texture to each of the meshes, then re-attach them with 2 separate textures showing successfully on the one mesh.

Experimenting with a simple cube made it a whole lot easier to understand what I was doing; so then it was easy to do to my character model. I don?t know if it was a good way to do it or not (seems too simple - I must be doing something wrong [:P]), but it worked in the end.

But I still don?t understand all this multi/sub object stuff?

Palantir: if you use material ID's and multi-subobject texture.....
(in material editor 3dsmax click the 'Standard' button up the top right corner to bring up a list which will have the multi-subobject option there)
......then you wont have to spilt the model up and apply two different textures.

Ofcourse if you are making your texture mirrored then you will cut the model in half and unwrap one side, Mirror and copy then stick it all back together.

1) Setup MultiSubobject material with 2 materials - call 1 HEAD / the other TORSO ( ow whatever )
2) Make Model
3) Unwrap model into pieces
4) Pack pieces into 2 squares in uvw window.
5) Apply Unwrap UVW to Model and hit Edit to Open UVW window.
6) Select over 1 of the squares in the UVW window - the corresponding Poly should be highlighted red in your viewport.
7) Set the selected polygons to Material ID 1 ( you can do this way down in the Polygon Properties Section ( Over to the right ))
8) Rince and repeat from step 6 with *OTHER* square of pieces except set the ID to 2.
9) Texport Wireframes and Paint Texture, you should have 2 texture sheets now call them the same as your material - HEAD & TORSO.
10) Apply each texture to the corresponding material in the multisub object.
10) Apply Material to Model.
11) If its all screwy - you might have got the id's backward in which case swap them around.

Thats about it - JohnN if your in some real Strife pop me an email and ill send some screenshots over to help.

this might sound compicated, and there have been said several good ways of solving yuor problem above, this is just meant as an explanation as to how material ids work

when you create a mesh it has one material id by default. if you select faces and drag a material on to them, they will be automatically asigned a unique material id. if you then select different faces and drag on a differnt material they will in turn get a different material id, and so on for as many materials you drag on to faces.

if youthen select a blank material slot in the material editor and useing the eye dropper select the mesh a 'multi sub-object' material will automatically be created containing the two materials applyed to the mesh. so basically a mesh can have any number of materials assigned to it, and a 'multi sub-object' material is just a way of organising them (as you can adjust the materials in their own material slots if you want).

you can set up material ids manually by selecting the faces you want then setting the material id number at the bottom of the edit poly/mesh roll out thing (forget what it's called - ive been suing maya lately). whatever number you put in here will correspond to the number slot the material sits in in a multi sub material.

so i usually set my ids manually then create a multisub material with the two materials in the right slots, then aply that to the mesh. easy.

in the uv editor you can choose to display specific id, or all ids.

if that was confusing, ignore me [:)]

That was good LiveWire. Thanks for all that info guys, that?s cleared it all up for me. I expect JohnN will be fine now also.

I sure wish this thread were here a few weeks ago when I was trying to work it out. I found it surprisingly difficult to find anything useful online.

thanks for posting replies everyone. I've spent what seemed to be an unproductive afternoon re-reading all the posts trying to get something to work, but finally I think I have cracked it :)

what version of max are you using? max 7 allows you to turn edges.

learn to love shift-drag to extrude. it's very handy. unfortunatly thre is no way (that i know of) drag extrude faces. shift drag will only copy them. maybe i'm not looking hard enough though.

Extruding faces is fine.
Im working with MAX 6

then you'll have to stick with the 'edit triangulation' button. not as simple as turning, but it gets the job done easy enough.

personally I find edit triangulation a bitch to use since it interrupts the modelling process too much -- just a clunky implementation of a tool in my opinion. generally, I'll either chuck on an edit mesh or collapse to editable mesh to do my cleanups and edits; I really only use epoly for up-resing stuff to retain the uv's, or to do specific operations like rivets or fabric seams.

Makk: Hi there. If Hold shift and pull the edge instead of using the extrude tool you get a clean extrude. The extrude tool is more for throwing in wrinkle midway in the surface. Still, I generally dont use it. Shift cloning edges is the way to go for your prob.

Now on the subject of edit triangulation. The reason your not seeing anything is that this dumb tool only effects hidden edges. :( It was one of the first things I focused on when the Discreet guys asked me to give them feedback. However, I use the following technique instead for all my Unreal Tournament characters...

In old school modelling, your hidden edges where REAL edges, but... er, hidden. In edit poly the hidden edges are reorientated automatically as you move the surface around. This is cool for most of your modelling, but when you get down to really low optimisations you want to control those too... which is why turn is needed, or was needed in emesh. Now the way to think about it is if you need control over an edge, make it a real edge. You can quickly do this by binding a key to connect vertex (if your lucky enough to have max 7, then you can use the brush select tool in combo with the connect vert key to brush on edges in seconds).

What I am lobbying for now is to make turn work on visiable, real edges... rather like 'spin' does in other programs. This is far more useful.

Oh, and youll probably be pleased to hear I slapped the guy who wrote the edit triangulation tool when I met him ;)

I dont check back here much, so if you have any further questions about epoly, feel free to email me.

until then here's a scrip that spins edges:

[img]icon_paperclip.gif[/img] Download Attachment: [url="http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/attached/LiveWire/2005753557_SpinEdge.txt"]SpinEdge.txt[/url]
6.89 KB

re-name it to a .ms file and put it in the scriptsPluginScripts directiry (i think) and bind it to a shortcut key or menu or something.
it's a bit dodgy in some circumstances as i remember it (shortly after i got it i began using maya so i never got a chance to use it much).

and Dave - if you get the chance slap the guy that put the close button on the 'Render to Texture' progress bar and did make it do anything!

I eventually figured it out. What I was doing was drawing over the edge I wanted turned, instaed of drawing out where I want the new edge to be. heh :)

For games work, it's true it's not as important since it's dictated by the capabilities of technology and project scope. At the moment there's not that much required to that degree, but it is becoming more and more so. Consider that starting work on a title right now with a projected finish of 2 or 3 years will put you easily into next gen specs, and it becomes a whole lot more viable -- another argument to this however, is to show that you're a skilled animator effectively, facial animation is an integral part of portraying character and personality through expression and movement. So it can go a long way in communicating greater depth of character and bringing things to life, which is one of the most important things for an animater to be able to show.

With that said, I think I need to clarify another thing - I've just talked about expression and movement, not really directly lipsynch. If you haven't really got into lipsynch yet, then it's very important to learn first that 90% of good lipsynch is before the lips and jaw start to move at all - it's in the movement of the head and eyes and body language which is directly linked to what the character is saying and expressing. Once you've got this down, then refinement of the lip shapes and tongue and jaw movement is secondary to it.

I guess at the end of the day, to show a breadth of talent as an animator, you must be able to show a full range of animation ability. This could range from large fluid acrobatics with multi-character interaction, to subtle movements of the eyes and mouth when a character delivers a scared/shy/sad line of speech. Lipsynch fits into expression and adds subtlety to all ranges, so it is important if you want to show that breadth of skill.

Styles has pretty much covered most of it..
I see lots of portfolio's and i see a hell of alot of Lipsync.. and most of it done not so well.. and it especially frustrating when their character animation is terrible.. It highly unlikely you'll get hired purely for facial animaiton.. unless that what theyre looking for.. and then you better really good..

I'm of the opinion, that especially in games, that I want to see good character animation, Like JI said, with interactions, either with objects or other characters.. gesturing, weighting, anticipation, action, reaction.. etc.. If the body can't tell the story, how can you expect the face too..

anyhow if you want to do lipsync back it up with good and robust character animation ability.. then you'll do better than someone with just facial animation..

seeya

Totally true.
You may be interested to know that I spent a while learning lip synch many years ago, and I think I have only really used it for about ten hours out of seven years full time work.

That is soooo awesome.... bought tears to my eyes... the superheros! OMG! I don't know where you found this site Souri... but its coooool

lol thats brilliant

That's one of the cooler things I have seen for a while. cheers for that souri.

Like everyone has said ? extremely cool. And I bet the kids would be thrilled to see their drawings brought to life like that.

That's damn sweet as! Gonna have to ask the girlfriend for some stuff. As a Year 2 teacher, she gets plenty of this stuff. I'm definitely intrigued to give it a try. @:-D

i love it, would like to try it my self gonna have to ask my little sister for her inspiration :)

wow.

Thats great! I wish I had done that with my Nephew.. he would have loved it!

Quite a different approach to "childish" art :D
I love it and is a great exploration of art

...3ds max script?

Yes its a 3dsMax MacroScript. It becomes a menu item under the customize toolbars dialog in the category rodent.

I tried it out for a while back.

It's workflow didn't seem to intuitive to me but I probably didnt have the patients to learn it.

Although, it did have one of the prettiest interfaces around :).

I can answer the last one [:)] Malus is the resident expert on maya-3ds differences though...

"f" will frame on selected, should then be able to rotate around it.

Grab the script below, its a target weld.
Say thank you to Mr Campbell Strong for this one.
---------------------
/*

targetWeld
---------------
- emulates the behaviour of the 3dsMax tool - snap selected
vertex to location of a second vert, and weld/merge them.

Campbell Strong 9/02 4.0 > 02/03 4.5
campbellstrong@hotmail.com
-----------------------------------------

Usage:
---------
- invoke the tool with "targetWeld" proc (stick it in a shelf
button, hotkey, MMenu).

- follow help line prompts:
- select a single vertex initially,
- followed by the second vertex which will be
snapped and merged/welded to.
- or simply shift select to weld last weld to
new target.

- the tool will error if you select a multiplicity of points at
any selection stage:
-->tool is geared for quickly snaping one vert to one, unbroken
by pressing enter, you dont get the 'multiple pnts all snapping to
one' functionality. just shift-select your 'multiple pnts' one by one
into one, then take them to their destinatn (its quick). if you've got
a whole bunch (>~10), where selectn is drags, do distance merge (or
jig this script if you use that a lot, of just have large dist merge on
a MM).

- merge vertices does not work across independent meshes,
they should be combined.

- if you cant see pnts on your mesh at any pnt, like if you return to the
tool via 'last tool'/y or in toolBox rather than by a targetWeld call,
simply RMB->vrts them back to visibility.

- if your on running prior to 4.5, you'll need to comment out some of
the functionality that has been added, its just below, line 59.

*/

global proc targetWeld()
{
if (!`scriptCtx -exists snapWeld`){
scriptCtx
-t "Weld Verts"
-tss 1
-fcs "vrtSnapAndWeld($Selection1)"
-esl 1
-snp " Select FIRST, singular, vtx to snap and weld to a second, of shift select for SECOND w last weld as first"
-ssp " Select SECOND, singular, vtx to snap and weld to"
-setDoneSelectionPrompt " **** ---> MORE THAN ONE PNT SELECTED FOR SNAP AND WELD, UNSELECT THESE AND TRY AGAIN <--- ****"
-sat 1
-ssc 2
-sac 1
-pv 1

-euc 0

// maya 4.5 specific additions, comment "//" out if your on 4.0 (just like this line).
-tct "edit"
-ts "$sel = `ls -sl -dag -typ mesh`; select -cl; for ($se in $sel) doMenuComponentSelection($se, "pv");"
// end 4.5 specific additions

snapWeld;
}

$sel = `ls -sl -dag -typ mesh`;
select -cl;
for ($se in $sel)
doMenuComponentSelection($se, "pv");
setToolTo snapWeld;

}

global proc vrtSnapAndWeld(string $sel[])
{
undo; string $fst[] = `ls -sl -fl -type float3`;
string $scnd[] = stringArrayRemove($fst, $sel);
if (size($fst) == 1){
float $p[] = `pointPosition -w $scnd`;
move -ws $p[0] $p[1] $p[2] $fst;
polyMergeVertex -d 0.0001 -ch 0 $fst $scnd;
} else {
warning " ** More than one pnt initially selected to snap and weld to, start selectn again (you may have coincident vrts) ** ";
select -cl;
setToolTo snapWeld;
}
}
-----------------------------
Its a rooster, can't lay eggs but if it was a hen then the egg will always roll down Daniel son..... [:P]

Thanks for your help, this will quicken my modeling.
Now I need to buy a chicken :)

or alternatively just import objs from max and do all your modelling in there. ;) My God how I hate maya.

LOL! tsk tsk Dave.

Posting that comment in a "Hail Maya" thread is just plain cheeky isn't it Dave? [:P]

Also its hard to believe you're unbiased when we all know you've worked with Discreet as a consultant hehe. [:D]

In the end its apples and oranges.

Oh and I think they both rock myself so I win!! hehe

What is the .smd file used for?

If its character stuff shouldn't there be an exporter?

Try asking the guys your freelancing for, I'm guessing htey'd know.

You can read about that here..
[url]http://www.steampowered.com/index.php?area=news&id=364[/url]

It looks like you need a installed copy of halflife 2 to be able to access the maya exporter..

apart from that go visit forums...

I don?t know of any hand drawn reference sheets, but here?s a great site for photographic 3D reference sheets. [url]http://www.fineart.sk/index.php?cat=16[/url]I suppose for exact proportions you can?t do much better real humans? [?] The ones that don?t lean to the side, anyway.

here is the back front and side which makes up part of sumeas header[:)]

[url]http://www.imagehosting.us.com/image.php?id=24845&h=203736[/url]
[url]http://www.imagehosting.us.com/image.php?id=24848&h=641435[/url]
[url]http://www.imagehosting.us.com/image.php?id=24850&h=779761[/url]

lol, Ive got those and looked around that site as well.
I would prefer them naked as well. ah! no jokes please! ;)

edit: Conundrum, thanks those a re good :)

here is some good ref but the same type of thing.
http://www.3d.sk/sitemap.htm

That is an awesome site!!
Pity you have to pay for it, though its fairly cheap so I might get a subscription.

looks like the 'www.fineart.sk' site had nude front, side and back photos too. As well as Loomis anatomy books! bonus

conundrum theyre dead links for me :(
can u repost them?

Try a couple of things,
Changing the scanline renderer to something else like vray or mental ray.
Change the size of the avi you are rendering to a standard size.
Import the mesh into a new file - and try render it again.
Can you render anything at all ? or does it just crash when your rendering whats in this paticular file ?
How much ram do you have ?

If its still not working you might need to re-install max. If its still not working after a fresh renistall, id say its because the scenes possibly too big to store in the virtual / ram buffer that you have free, or you might be working with a nasty corrupt file.

Hopefully that helps a wee bit. [:)]

Don't know if this will help, but I crash max when rendering to avi and i have the folder open to which i'm rendering.
Or when overwriting a previous render and have the file selected in windows explorer.l

HAve you checked the Discreet website for a patch. I hade some problems rendering to Avi at one point untill I evntualy found a patch for it. Sorry can't find the link anymore.

what program are you using? something like illustraitor(vector software) will be easier to use than somehting like photoshop, i know because ive done it in both.

dont have any tuts tho...

This seems to be teh only one I know of-
http://www.drawthrough.com/tutorials/perspectives.html
Perspective is a real biatch when doing complicated objects!!

edit: painter 8 (and probably other versions of it) has a built in perspective grid that you can toggle.
Its under Canvas>Perspecitive Grids> Show/Hide Grid
Its only a one point though, but still pretty handy.

Check out the book "Perspective Made Easy" by Ernest Norling. It teaches some good foundations, which will easily allow you to work up to bigger scenes. Plus, it's cheap to buy ;)

I wouldn't mind having a look at that new maya book, "The Game Artist's Guide to Maya" that looks pretty interesting.To bad my local book store is pretty crappy when it comes to these types of books :([url]http://www.webreference.com/graphics/game/[/url]

Speaking of books were would i find a really good online book shop??
Prep in Au

Here's a book that is proving to be immensely useful in learning to draw and improving existing drawing skills:
Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain, by Betty Edwards. Just look at some of her students before and after drawings (you can probably find info online), and you'll be amazed. I'm only half way through and already I can see a big improvement.
I highly recommend it to anyone wanting to improve their drawing skills, especially people who could use some more artistic confidence.

I have The Animator's Survival Kit and Stop Staring

both gold. havnt got far into Stop Staring just yet but i intend to follow it through and build a few nice faces.

The Illusion of Life: Disney Animation
Dynamic Light and Shade (Any Burne Hogarth for that matter)
Anatomy for the Artist, it has great photos and descriptions
Any Frazetta Books, awesome for character concepts
Any Loomis Books, great anatomy books
Double Memory: Phil Hale and Rick Berry, some cool stuff
Goad: Phil Hale, haven't read but its phil hale
Progressions: The Art of John Foster
The Spectrum Series (1 to 12 i think), best of fantasy illustration
Alla Prima: Everything I Know, i haven't read it but it looks good

Octane: i use amazon, yet to have a problem and its fairly cheap

Anatomy Drawing school.
[human.animal.comparative anatomy]
by Andras Szunyoghy/Gyorgy Feher

Believe me, if you can find this book you'll hardly ever need another anatomy book again. My bible. [:)]

Any medical or autopsy journals, gross but invaluable. Boo haha

I second Animators Survival Guide. Must have.

Stop Staring has been floating around work for a few months and although its good I'm not overly sure it greatly helps anyone other than those just starting out in higher poly facial modelling etc.
It seems like pretty common knowledge if you understand edgeloops and muscle structures of the face, although there are some pretty cool things to do with Maya specifically. Worth a look.

Keep away from software specific Guides unless you're really just starting out, literally haven't touched the package. They run over so much but touch so briefly on anything that its just easier to open the softwares helpfiles and tutorials or do a few web based ones.

Brom: Darkwerks - this is the fucking shit.
Any of Burne Hogarths Dynamic books.. Maybe not the faces one, doesn't really establish difference between male and females.
Frezzato - Keepers of the Maser (i think) Amazing level of detail in these..
Frazetta - Much Respect
Anry http://www.anry.ru/eng/index.htm

Umm.. But yeah.. Make your own reference.. Buy a cheap digi camera or a scanner.. Go people watching.. Bad thing about most of the stuff in books, is that you'll find that all the bodies are pretty much stock standard cliche stuff, so yeah.. Don't be afraid to look outside the box.. Try the masters, the ninja turtles did some crazy stuff..
Head down to your local library and browse through some of the art books in there. Granted, you may need to wade through a lot of junk to find something useful, but shit.. You're getting some culture. Culture is good.

3am and i'm rambling.. blahh

I want to get Ernest Adams and Anrew Rollings on Game Design soon too. i've read a lot of their stuff on Gamasutra and this book keeps looking better and better.

Hey LiveWire. I actually have a copy of that book if you would like to borrow it. I wasnt that impressed really. It may be usefull to people absolutely starting out with games design but for anyone with minimal experience or even a serious game player with some brains the majority of it to me just seemed common sense. There are a couple of little nuggets in it but on the whole I found it to be outdated.

Actualy if anyone can recommend a good book that teachers creating emotion in games let me know. I believe thats the key to a good game.

I think you mean elaborate and not collaborate for number 3.

People tend to change careers because they have decided that they are more passionate about something else. Maybe the lifestyle for that career is not suitable for them after a period of time. There are many reasons; each person has their own story.

Depending on quality of the games and how they are marketed, the consumers will decide if they prefer Australian or imported games. In the end, it?s a matter of consumer demand and the financial risks that developers will make for industry growth to happen. If the majority of consumers doesn't like Aussie games then bad luck to local growth, but she?ll be right...lol

quote:
1: A question that has come across in my head.. As an artist I wish to create game art? but somewhere down my career I want to pursue my own original game ideas. Can a person who starts out being a game artist come to designing and producing there own game ideas after a few years of being in the game industry?

Ah the wish of every games artist :P
Look anything is possible if you work hard enough but you will need to do just that, its not a common occurence.

quote:
2: pay and money is one thing. I think I speak for many when I say I wish to get into the game industry for reasons other then money. From your experience is the work you do satisfying and fill you with a sense of achievement?

Well I'm glad you're wanting in for the money because if you are this is the wrong industry. :P
Speaking for myself the work is satisfying but who knows what you'll be working on next, Halflife 3 is one thing, Monopoly Madness is another.
You really just need to find challenges in everything you do and if bettering yourself as an artist is a primary goal then you're going to be happier than someone whos just after the glory.

quote:
3: on a survey it says that about half of people working in the game industry wont be seeing themselves working in the same industry 10 years form now.. Could you collaborate in this please?

Alot leave because they had very skewed views on the industry to begin with, its not all LAN's and booth babes, hell it practically never is.

People may want in because they just want to make games but once they've had a few crunchtimes and can't remember the faces of there friends and family they soon have to reconsider that as sole reason to stay and if they can't find another reason they may decide its not for them.

Others find they are overworked, underpaid and undervalued and just burn out, burn out counts for a great deal of those who leave. (games are seen as the entertainment sweatshops alot, just look at the mess with EA).

Finally alot just find the film industry and other creative industries way more tempting.

quote:
4: Finally, The Australian game industry is considered to be at a medium point. Nether tiny anymore nor big enough to attract mass international attention? what do you believe that the Australian game development scene will be in the future. Thriving or keeping to the sidelines or something else..

Well there is a tonne of potential in Australia, we are cheaper than alot of European and US based companies for one thing.
I don't really have much knowledge on that side of the industry as I'm just a pleb [:P] but Australian companies seem to be getting better and better on the international playing field.

Burn out.. Yep heard of that when i did work experience for wicked with software.. Nice blokes they are.

Burn out and undervalue from the outside point of view seems to be an ever growing concern for those wanting in on the industry.. i mean.. yeah overtime is overtime but to kill all artistic and creative talent isn?t a fun game to play.. (PUN! CALL THE PUN POLISE!!)

none the less.. im a stubborn bastard and I?ll continue my quest into the game industry. And i believe i got what it takes to get to the point of producing my own ideas.. but i know it ant gonna happen for a loooooooonnnnng time.

when you think about it.. game production over the decades has gone from a handful of people to when the next gen consoles come out were looking at teams of 100+ easily... how does one maintain such a complex environment.

as for EA (evil arts) games.. I?ll put myself on limb and i agree with Malus.. they seem to be monopolising and if something isn?t done well all end up working for the exact same man.

Just going to add a little on the game design thingy..

You say "your own original Ideas" I guess this can be taken two ways. A. your own Game idea as everything bassed around your idea.

Or.

B. Ideas thrown into a game as it is being created.

So far I have had alot to do with B. and I know of a number of companies who get ideas off artists and who ever wants to have a say in the matter.

quote:1: A question that has come across in my head.. As an artist I wish to create game art? but somewhere down my career I want to pursue my own original game ideas. Can a person who starts out being a game artist come to designing and producing there own game ideas after a few years of being in the game industry?

I have to agree with USF & Malus on this one, it really depends on the company and how well you grow with them. If it feels like your ideas and designs are fitting in well and are being implemented in some situations, then keep at it and maybe start introducing ideas on a grander scale.

Either way - dont expect this to happen, youll most probably need to go well above and beyond the call of duty to even get your ideas heard in a larger studio.

quote:2: pay and money is one thing. I think I speak for many when I say I wish to get into the game industry for reasons other then money. From your experience is the work you do satisfying and fill you with a sense of achievement?

My answer to this is probably different to what you expected.
How long have you been actively and solidly doing 2D / 3D work aimed specifically at games? If its anywhere less than 12 - 18 months keep going until you hit 2 + years, then work on a piece, finish it and ask yourself "How do I feel about this piece?"

Whats even more important is comparing that piece from 6 months - 1 year ago and see how far youve come, compare it to similar pieces created by other artists. Are you catching up - or are they leaving you behind?

If you still have fire in your belly, are still eagre to better your skills, are still checking on your artistic idols on a daily / weekly basis for updates of their new work.

Chances are your feeling pretty good about what your doing [:)]

Personally - I feel a sense of achievement for every stage of a 3D Model. Overcoming 3DS Max / Zbrush 2 anomalies seem to rank rather high at the moment on my list.

I'm never quite happy with my work, I see so much talent on CG Talk / RAPH I feel Im fighting a mighty battle with near impossible odds to even begin to compete with some of those guys - But its what keeps me going, and every time im able to express a new idea or technique it re-ignites the flame.

quote:3: on a survey it says that about half of people working in the game industry wont be seeing themselves working in the same industry 10 years form now.. Could you collaborate in this please?

10 years from now I dont see myself doing the same thing im doing right now - but I still see myself as doing something industry related.

I hope to one day establish a place of higher learning for those graduating from places like QANTM, which deals with real projects, real money, and very real deadlines, pressures and day to day runnings of a Studio. But more on that another time [:0]

quote:4: Finally, The Australian game industry is considered to be at a medium point. Nether tiny anymore nor big enough to attract mass international attention? what do you believe that the Australian game development scene will be in the future. Thriving or keeping to the sidelines or something else..

Whow really knows - my thoughts on it are that Australia will continue to grow at about the same rate as it has, so far its been pretty good, few lumpy bits but in a general trend toward growth which is positive.

There are some promising things on the horizon for AU - its a great place to work - especially if you have a view out over a beach! [8D]

Some very helpful info from some insiders here?

Caroo, maybe if your ultimate goal is to get into game design, getting into the industry as an artist may not be the best move? As an artist you certainly will not be working professionally on your own game idea for a very long time. Possibly a better way into game design would be to work on as many *unpaid* projects as possible, like mods and indie games, building your experience and expertise. By concentrating on getting into the industry as an artist, you won?t really be able to concentrate on developing your game design skills.

Basically there are three main areas of game development: programming, art and production. It?s probably a good idea not to try and be an expert at all of them... *Palantir looks at all his programming books on the shelf and wishes they were art books...*

It sounds like possibly you would be better off focusing primarily on learning the production side of things if it?s the coveted position of game designer that your after. Though that?s not to say a change from art to production is impossible. I don?t want to talk you out of the art direction! I?m just saying that focusing on production and design is a more direct route.

Here?s an interesting article (Education of a game designer) that you may find helpful:
[url]http://www.erasmatazz.com/library/Game%20Design/The_Education_of_a_Game…]

palantir... i see.. i guess my situation is that i wish to creature orginal games.. but i want a be a producer who can bring is artistic and creative skills to the table as well. and more so being someone who lead by example.. i still think i'm gonna do the AIE art coruse becouse of its links to the industry, but you do have a point..

i am studying the production of game making through test.. i got a book called. "secrets of the game business" which is very interesting..

but well just have to see in time.

Oh yeah Caroo, going to AIE is defiantly a good idea. I'm not saying you shouldn't, just that it's good to be aware of the different areas of the industry and the job of game designer isn't an easy one to attain. That's not to say you won't get there one day. Maybe after a few years working in game art you might have the "right stuff" to get into production. Or maybe you might even go into business for yourself? It's certainly possible to become a game designer, and knowing about the industry from first hand experience has to help, right?

I just think it's good to have a correct perspective on the industry. If you spend years working your arse off to get in as an artist thinking that you'll be working on your own ideas before long, then you'll probably be very disappointed when you spend the first five years or more of your career making game art that you think isn't particularly cool.

Personally I think the most important thing is to love what you do and realise that working in any capacity in the industry should be a lot better then many normal, mainstream jobs out there.

By the way, what's a dictor? Or do you mean doctor? Or do I just not get the joke? [:P]

well.. i'll tell you what i want to do and you tell me from your experiense what would better suit me..

<< My plans and ambitions is to create my own stories through a form of media.. I choose games as my desired medium because of there intractability and potential to show a story much larger then a movie.

Thus why I began to draw.. I draw to get these ideas out of my head and accessible for people to see.. but not just story ideas but game ideas.. like concepts and applyable features that make a game that little more rewarding to play and engage yourself..

Because in games that?s what its about.. Rewards.. you do a task or event and you get a reward.. and thus your engaged to keep playing to get more rewards.. this is a proven fact in some of our most popular games.. Diablo.. grand theft auto.. the sims even.. You?re always working towards getting rewarded. But of course this is only one aspect of what makes a good game.

I consider myself to be creative. And I desire to be a creator who doesn?t get others to do the work that the creator really should be doing himself.. As I said before. I want to lead by example.>>

So what suits me better?

If you are interested in game design, There is a book that I'm reading at the moment called 'Game Design' by Chris Crawford. Its been quite a good book so far. Maybe you should look into it.

IMO you picture yourself a budding creative director and you wish to lead by example - if this is the case its quite clear cut, although there could be many ways to go about it heres the approach I might have taken.

First of all I would set myself some clear goals about what I want, and how long I feel I require to achieve them ( get used to making estimations as soon as I can - this is a perfect opportunity to see if I really suck at it or not )

Then I would review the goals and start breaking them down into manageable 'chunks'. For instance, Animation, 3d Modelling, Concept art and so on. Read up about each of these things, and then have a crack at them myself, familiarise myself with every aspect. Purely to gain an understanding of what is involved for that specific 'chunk'. I don't need to MASTER all of these but having a good understanding and the ability to fit into any of those areas will definately be an advantage later on.

Once thats out the way - I'll need to research pipelines, engines, toolsets - to gain an understanding about how all of those specific 'chunks' need to go together in order for me to express my idea correctly.

In this day and age - theres almost Zero chance of being able to complete the expression of my idea alone. So no doubt I will need others to help out.

I will need to be able to clearly express my thoughts and ideas to my team, using pretty much any means necessary to get my point clearly across. Documentation.

Without having a creative reference point for my team to call upon to set them back on track it will make life interesting to say the least. I will need to learn how to create successful documentation, or any medium for that matter that bests interprets what my ideas are.

I will need to realise that creating a matrix like 'jacking in' mechanism for team members to download sections of whats in my head, is out of the question.

After I have achieved a thorough understanding of each of the artistic processes, are up to speed with the current technology / tools / engine trends, have my documentation all complete along with a plan of my idea, I can start looking for a team to help my idea come to life.

Team Building & People Management. Thats a whole new jack in the box.

Hopefully that provides some insight or at the very least the urge to ponder what lays ahead [:)]

Anux -
Well actually two days ago while on an excursion to melb uni i got a book called. "game design second edition" by Bob bates... its a relevant and very interesting book at a glancing. and its very resent so that?s a plus.

HazarD - thanks for the advice mate. My ultimate goal is to become a creative director... but im not totally sure how one gets to there... i don?t mind it being hard work.. my life was built on it.. but would the starting position of a designer, be the better choice from the artist?

Here ya go: http://www.sumea.com.au/sarticle.asp?art_ID=16
Off the front page it is in the articles section.

Can I please just underline something, If youll notice in that article the " does an artist need a tertiary education " question - Dave King Wrote :

" Absolutely not important at all... there are three qualifications in this field. 1) What you can do (your showreel) 2) What you have done (your experience or previous titles) and 3) what people think of you (your interview skills and industry gossip about you). Everything else means squat unless you have learnt from it. "

I couldnt have said it any better myself. And the theme runs pretty much consistant throughout all of the replies.

Thanks Jacana, muchly appreciated :)

-t

Hi guys, just wondering as im expanding my resume, should i try and put up a showreel? ive had many people tell me that i need one even tho i have a few short videos available for download, would i be better off with a showreel?

What content should go in a show reel(ingame stuff, still renders/wires,animations/textures/sketeches? what length(max 3 mins?)?

Hiya Bronson,

Yeah pick your best 2 - 3 models and present them nicely, but most of all express your strengths - if you cant animate very well, then dont animate the models at all or get someone who can animate well to do it for you and accredit them accordingly.
Same goes for concept / modelling and texturing.

Having a longer reel than 3 minutes is crazy for a modeller / skinner position. IMO aim for a short reel that definately focusses on quality not qauntity. Even a single eyepopping model & texture spin with no animation at all will draw more attention than a 2-3 minute long epic with 8 - 10 models showing wires and whatnot.

And if possible avoid clunky flash demos, with whizbang 'sliding in and out of screen' gadgets every time one wishes to view the next item.

Overall aim for the end user to simply double click, sit back and prepare to be instantly wowed.

Thanks, so it should be about 2-3mins and more or less a teaser ? :)

I can do some animation id really like to show some stuff such as ingame work that seems to never work on other peoples computers so ive recorded a bit of that to flash by quickly....

one other question, what about music? is it ok to use some from a cd? or i can only use free stuff?

im no pro myself but the majority of guys that ive talked to say that if theres music in it, they by and large just turn off the sound anyway.

okay wont worry about sound then, what codec should i use to compress it? something generic like cinpac which is ugly or something like divX?

bink is good. make it a self executing file and then all you need to give them is that - it has the codec in it so all they need to do is run it.

http://www.users.on.net/~firefox/bronson/demos/reel/Bronson_Reel.avi

thats what ive got so far, not shure about the music, without it, it is kinda boring?

When your modelling in Edit Poly Mode, Whack an 'STL check' modifier on your stack then hit the '7' key. That will give you a Triangle count ( which is all you should be worried about when building stuff for games )

I like to have an STL check on there anyway it helps to spot open edges, and dodgy left over verts etc.

this seems to get a lot of people starting out in max.

the poly counter shows the right info all the time - the difference in edit poly it will count polys (polygons of any amount of sides) where as in edit mesh it will count tris. so the result you get from an edit mesh poly count is the "real" ammount.

i just convert it to an edit mesh, check the count (7 key), then undo. otherwise you could put an edit mesh modifier om top of your stack and still work in edit poly below.

or get your hands on max7 :)

the polycounter has a triangle option.

Thanks guys :)

Or better yet, just download Juan Martinez?s popular polycounter script from [url]http://www.juantwo.com/scripts/Macro_PolyCounter.zip[/url]
It's also on scriptspot (well worth checking out).

It sits on the interface and displays the triangle face count on Editable Poly and Editable Mesh objects. You can select multiple objects at once, and it works in Sub-Object mode.

Even better thanks palantir, sweet site to now all need to do is learn to understand what they all do [^] << well the ones i need anyhow..

again thanks guys

Can I be the guy who yells "Porn! Porn! Porn! Porn!"
:P

Hmm, now that cartoons a great use of generalisation.....
I feel much better now that I have a way to pidgeon hole myself in my chosen profession. [:|]

Honestly Caroo, do you really think that cartoon is an accurate cross section of people in or attempting to enter the industry? Yikes.

How about drawing another guy sitting there with a confused look on his face and title it:
"Guy who looks in from the outside and thinks he knows it all"?

What is the measure for a games artist in your eyes Caroo, experience? raw talent? a job in a studio ? good people skills ?

Malus:

Generalisation. NEVER!!!! XD.. The cartoon isn?t actually that at all mate.. I said it was based of people i KNOW of.. not people TYPES... every artist is different and has there advantages and faults. i'll put up my hand and admit i have alot of those faults as well mate. Some i need to ween out before i go into the industry O.o or I?ll quickly be booted out.

it is a naive stab at humour...but if you meet the 5 people i have meet in the wannabe section, you'd chuckle with me.. and since you haven?t i understand why your pissed off about it.

again...there people. not people TYPES.

HazarD:

what the measure of a game artist... I honestly can't tell you.. because A) im not one of as of yet.. just a pup.
B) No one i know of has ever told me.. Most wannabes like me are kept in the dark.. Where told how to present and compile folios. but as of yet.. no one has said to me "this kind of personally and mindset is what we the managers look for in a game artist" if you can tell me that.. Awesome.. I?ll stop drawing silly cartoons like this (which was born out a convo from another wannabe game artist that I respect.. I respect more artists then i dislike? basically.. I don?t care if your drawing skills are low.. As long as you give it a go) and focus on what really is more important.

what is a measure of a good games artist.. haven?t got the sliest clue.. i do however, know 5 annoying people that wont make it past there school exams if they don?t get over themselves.

and why did i put myself in the potensal section.. because I?m willing to change my point of view and mindset for the sake of better correction... the 5 below hold there hands to there ears when ever you tell them otherwise.

Well its a little hard to look over your post again to see if I misread it since you deleted it. [:(]

I can't remember reading the bit about the comment being aimed at just people you know, it just read as an attack on people who want to get in the industry or are there already.

From memory the post just sounded like another rant at how people in the industry don't help you get a job and honestly that just sort of attitude just shits me, I can't for the life of me understand why so many people think they are entitled to help by those who got there through their own blood, sweat and tears.

I had to also chuckle that on your website you have written:

Art Chris hates: Renaissance art, modern art, tagging.

Well I agree with the tagging part, thats just lazy graffiti for the unskilled but both modern and renaissance art are kind of important Caroo, especially the later, without guys like Da Vinci, Botticelli, Michelangelo and Caravaggio we would probably not have the artistic freedom or techniques to even do your beloved furry anime.

I just think before you go bagging anyone publicly, even if you only meant "people you know" you might want to check your own work and attitude first, that way gits like myself won't get there backs up when we think your attacking people who have tried or are trying to do there best.

quote:Most wannabes like me are kept in the dark..
No ones keeping you in the dark, there isn't a secret society of "we hate new guys" you just aren't asking the right questions to the right people, or maybe you aren't doing what the rest of us did, trial and error, networking, cold calling companies, writing letters, posting your work on forums like this one etc.

Believe me, we all realise its hard work trying to understand what companies are looking for, I myself still don't know exactly what it was that got me a job. [:P]

In the end its going to be different for each employer but obvious things stand out, great skills in your chosen field, great attitude and a great ability to 'self manage'.

If you really are interested in knowing what you need to get into the industry then reply to this post or start a new thread with a list of questions.

It can't hurt and I'm sure guys in the industry like Hazard and JI Style and myself would answer them as best as we know how.

I know the rest of my post seems rather agressive but its just a pet peeve with me, I respect those who help themselves or actively seek help free of attitude, but I get like a bear with a sore head when I hear the "why not me's", and the "I'm better than these guy's" etc.

It is quite possible I misread you, and if I did I apologise but in future you may want to try wording your posts better if you don't want negative replies.
Both Hazard and I misconstrued it so it couldn't have been that easy to follow.

Hey, I thought it was amusing. [:)] I don't think Caroo as making a damning statement about the kind of peple entering the industry, more like just a bit of humour about his observation. Please don't go down too hard on the poor guy [:D]

p.s put the comic strip back up! [:D]

Souri:

^^thanks for the support.. but both Malus and HazarD have a point.. it was what you call an "inside joke" and i guess the Sumea lunrchpad isnt the best plase to putz it... however.. i'll mail it to you..

More so.. if anyone else want a look at it.. i'll mail it to you guys as well... sorry if it offended some people.. but i dont take my own work that seriously XP

Malus: true points...

mainly with the hate of ressionse art and modern art... yet again its something not to be taken seriously.. my hate of that comes from my school studio art teacher.. who basicly said and i remember coz i wrote this down. "furry art is fetish art... Anime is lazy and (oh this is good) Video game artists are the comman slob of all artistic effit..." MERRRRRRRR!!!

I may not be working for someone. But god knows just now hard meshing and texturing can be.... and this comming form a woman who had 4 different bilbes on her desk... ok.. i'll stop there im deverting form the point. XP I acculy have a art book called "the art of ardian smith" which.. it realistic art that is used for the warhammer illos..good book i advice people to take a spiz at it.. and as for my (cough) website... i need to edit the about me secion... as for modern art.. im sorry but ive been to camberra and i dont see know painting NOTHING on a canvis and getting $20,000 for it is considered art (which was a pease when i went there on display)My hate for modern art runs pritty deep. but i guess we have art likes and dislikes.. i dont critasise people who hate furry art.. as there alot of good reasons to.. but it isnt worth talking about in this forem.

I will make a list and post it in a few days.. lets see if there good questions..

and i can understand your pet hate to as i have one myself.. artists..no people in general who have the attatude of. "i'm gonna do hardly anything and everything will come to me and be easy (PUNCH)"

I dont come from a well off family.. but i do come from a father whos worked all his like for me and my siblings and i beleave in the consept of hard working. If you have advise to give. thats awesome... god i hope to meet or work with you oldies (had to do it) in the future.

for example.. currently im devoting my free time to doing free consept art for this MMORPG being devoloped.. http://www.evilgamers.net/apalia/index.htm hoping its an extra foothold into getting into the industry..

anyway.. yeah i more then probably did miscontrued the point of was trying to get across with the comic.. it was supposed to be a bit of fun and not to b etaken seriously.. but these things happen.

It's not easy being green. peace in the middle east!