Artists

Can't think of any normal map gens off the top of my head, but regarding PS filters, it is true. My sleepy brain tells me that all it can remember is in Post effects, like adding a Gaussian blur to your render and such. I'll be more specific after sleep. @:-]

Chris Bowden
http://brain.gamekey.com/

Thanks brain, I may be able to use a plugin for photoshop that is a normal map generator in max, I'l mess around with it tonight

Lead paint: delicious but deadly!

I'm sure you can use height maps to create landscapes in Max.. There are a few programs that generate those b/w heightmaps using fractals, and you just save the bitmap and use it in Max.. I can't remember how you use that bitmap to generate landscapes exactly though..

Hmm... you *could* use a patch and put a noise modifier on it.. [;)] Very dodgy though hehe.

Tried the photoshop filter idea, No luck unfortunatley, just makes max crash. Damn it

Lead paint: delicious but deadly!

Nvidia has a photoshop plugin I think. ATI has recently released a tool to convert a high and low poly mesh into a normal map (for the low poly mesh). They also have another normal mapper tool. Not sure if there are any for MAX, but I'd say there would be. Really you should have a seperate tool tho, to convert a heightmap into a normal map (or whatever).

---------------------
Andrew McGregor
Engine programmer
Tycom Studios
andrewm@tycomstudios.com
www.tycomstudios.com
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You should definately check out Terragen at http://www.planetside.co.uk/terragen/ for creating landscapes.. as I mentioned before, you can make a snapshot of the height maps generated and use it in 3ds max if you like also.. A big list of landscape generators is at http://dmoz.org/Computers/Software/Graphics/3D/Terrain/ .. I'm sure you'll find something useful there. Check out this Terragen picture at http://perso.wanadoo.fr/bianco/3D/Ter131.jpg .. it looks awesome! One day... ONE DAY desktop computers will be fast enough to render this in real time for us to run around in. [:)]

Using photoshop filters during max rendering is a bit of a hit and miss affair to get the results you are happy with (well, from my experience from using the video post from ages ago ;)).. a much easier way to do things would be to render all your animation out of Max, and use a video editing program like Adobe Premiere to crop/edit/add effects & sound etc to your rendered movie - a big bonus is that you can preview it in real time.. Being an Adobe product, you can use all the photoshop plugins, and also many Premiere specific ones too.. It might be overkill, but I reckon it will save you lots of time and get you more satisfying results.. and if you really want to show off, look into Adobe After Effects..

Souri. He wasnt quite asking about terrain generation, or using heightmaps (for creating geometry).
:-)

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Andrew McGregor
Engine programmer
Tycom Studios
andrewm@tycomstudios.com
www.tycomstudios.com
---------------------

Thanks AndrewM, yeah I got down the tools and am now messing around with them.
Oh yeah Souri thanks for the tips, but I wasnt really asking about terrain generation :)

Lead paint: delicious but deadly!

I think one of the most promising tools is the high poly mesh low poly mesh normal generator. Artists have to start thinking about building extremely high triangle meshes. Around the 500k mark.

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Andrew McGregor
Engine programmer
Tycom Studios
andrewm@tycomstudios.com
www.tycomstudios.com
---------------------

You were asking for a terrain generator... ADMIT IT. [8D]

Seriously though, if you have a link to what you're referring to, I'd like to be clued in as well.. [:)]

http://mirror.ati.com/developer/tools.html

The program is called "normalmapper"
There's some other stuff there too.
RenderMonkey is hardly useful at all, since they dont provide any src code to their material format. CgFX is MUCH MUCH better (for people writing OpenGL engines). It's basically direcx9 effect files, but with a parser/runtime that can be used with OpenGL.

---------------------
Andrew McGregor
Engine programmer
Tycom Studios
andrewm@tycomstudios.com
www.tycomstudios.com
---------------------

hahaha, maybe i'll actually get around to doing a lower rez divx version sometime [:p]

http://www.jasondalton.com

That video is like over 85mbs.. It's more webspace than what Sumea has! [:)]

hehe yeah, gamespy doesn't seem to put a limit on how much i can store on their servers [:0]

http://www.jasondalton.com

I got it last week and it was worth the full day of downloading [:)]
Now as soon as i can figure out how to get it to play slower im set [:p]
Can't wait till the next one!

Bloody hell its a giant harmonica!

that vid is top stuff crystalmesh, its really good to see something from such a different perspective.

As far as I can remember, you can trade 3.1 for a portion off the price. You can't buy an upgrade, you've gotta buy a full version (though as far as I know, there aren't upgrade versions, tho I could be wrong). I bought my copy of max3 going on 2 years ago, so I'm a little sketchy on the details.

Try and find a local reseller of Discreet products, they might be a little more helpful. They should be listed on Discreet's website.

Chris Bowden
http://brain.gamekey.com/

a portion off the price you say? thats alright, I guess I'll look around for a re-seller later this evening

Lead paint: delicious but deadly!

If they are for real HO-LEE-SHIT, fantastic work, it looks to me like the materials were obviously photo-sourced, You never know they could just be photos that somone says is a model. They certainly take a giant shit all over final fantasy.

Lead paint: delicious but deadly!

Phf00le3 5ick Mate. They rock FF 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,X,XI,XII n suches boxorz out the doorXX0rs

100% chance of PAIN, in the GLAVEN

quote:Originally posted by Obsolete_386

Phf00le3 5ick Mate. They rock FF 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,X,XI,XII n suches boxorz out the doorXX0rs

386 posted my exact thoughts except in a very stupid way.
They are very impressive.
FF characters are still very good and while sid is the most realistic other characters are pretty realistic in some shots
but these are better [8]

Bloody hell its a giant harmonica!

I guess these models have a slightly extra advantage of being rendered with global illumination, while Final Fantasy had to fake their lighting. Yep, those textures were definately photosourced. FF were orignally too, but they ditched it and did all the skin textures by hand.

If i could do 3d models like that i'd be swimming in money!

But... i can't

100% chance of PAIN, in the GLAVEN

I'd just thought that i'd post to say that, i'm sorry, but i can't help you in anyway. Thanks for you time

100% chance of PAIN, in the GLAVEN

Thats kewl
Changed my mind on what i am doing so i don't need any help [:D]
Hey souri would i be able to upload my final animation about 30 seconds long at max?

Bloody hell its a giant harmonica!

At the moment, the upload function tests whether the file uploaded is a jpg or not - if it isn't, it deletes the file.. so you can't upload it - email it to me and I'll put it up, and you can link it off Sumea. sumea [at] sumea [dot] com [dot] au

Its something akin to programmers using more libraries, it might take hold, but like what was brought up in the forum there is that this will only work for existing environments, but what about all those 3D platformer games, or those one's such as Half Life, or Quake 2. I don't think you can just REALVis something like what appears in those games.

Its just like using libraries for programming, there's DirectX, some extra audio libraries, maybe a networkign technology such as Gamespy, and numerous other things such as physics systems etc, but in the end they still take time to implement into the engine and get working with the game itself.

My point is that there will always be jobs for animators, modellers, texture artists even (possibly in future just to tune and tweak and create new algorithms for procedual textures etc), programmers, level designers. Heck I'd imagine even more jobs would be created to fill the vaired roles.

For me personally even though I am a programmer by trade, I can still have some decent photoshop skills, and I could do a fair few things in Lightwave, but I'm not that great an artist creatively. Heck probably my best piece of creative art is this: http://members.austarmetro.com.au/~sdgrab/

quote:Originally posted by Souri

http://www.planetcrap.com/blah.php?action=viewtopic&topic_id=610&limit=…

Planetcrap sometimes run some interesting discussions, and this is definately one. I've always wondered whether one day such technology will eventually become good enough to replace manual creation of 3d objects, and textures, and this one (backed up by giants such as Nintendo, Electronic Arts, and NamCo) seems it's heading towards that goal real quick.
As you're all probably aware, content (models and textures) make up a huge proportion of developement time, and I'm sure many developement companies would sure be thinking of time and cost saving alternatives such as RealViz.
Who knows, one day modellers and texture artists might not even be required if models are scanned, and textures are procedural (like they are in animated films). It very may well be that artistic roles will be stripped back to the roots of concept design, while new roles are created for cleaning up scanned/digitised work.
The discussion raises a few very good points against these technologies though.. what do you think..? How do you rate your general artistic talent (can you draw to save your own life? [:)]?

Interesting.

The games industry is constantly evolving - this tool could make for producing the less important assets and even the important art assets if necessary. Would it mean that we'd start seeing Hollywood effect studios and make up teams? It could also mean that we'd see more expansive worlds because the basic tasks would take up less time - this could still allow for artists to spend time modelling the characters.

Like any technology, it will take manpower to manage, implement and make it work. Perhaps new positions will arise, like that of the Motion Capture operator. It still appears that a bit of work is needed with it.

As mentioned earlier the games industry is evolving. Where did all those 2d artists go? They didn't just disappear, I'm guessing that they learnt new skills and honed some 3d skills.

I think it's an interesting concept - potentially we could be seeing actors in games, much like how Bruce Willis was in Apocalypse. Perhaps we could also see the rise of some old-school Star Wars/Weta Workshop studios to build actual armour and stuff on characters and then have them scanned.

Dunno where I stand with it. As Daemin mentioned, there will always be jobs for artists, it's just that the roles might change.

Yeh.. I don't think a job of cleaning up scans and captures is very appealing myself. Shader programming will eventually be in the realm for artists to control, which I guess can be enjoyable to a certain extent. Other new artistic roles could be cinematography/photography, which is something I'd love to learn. Currently all that stuff would be handled by the art director for games, I'm guessing. Anyways, I'm sure there'll always be an outlet like modding which you can do in your spare time to serve your creative needs.. [:)]

blah humbug.

sure, and computers are such time saving devices soon none of use are going to have to do any work ever again. This didn't hapen, and in my opinion, it is not going to happen. (speeding up the cpu and not using triangless would be nice, but..)

you find a way to speed up art, and that means you can do more. Else you find methods that take insane amounts of time, (like normal mapping) and the technology has to run to catch up.

and if nothing else, gameplay migh come back to being importaint, and wild artistic creativity can roam in the game design's background. (a 10000 poly screw on a rifle doesn't make a fun game)

DSC

A thought occurred to me the other night
The same thing happened with painting in the past
everyone was concerned with realism but then when they reached it they decided to move on.
Perhaps the same things is happeneing.
What will happen when we are able to achieve complete realism?
Everone will get bored with realism and artists will move on.
Thats my thought

Bloody hell its a giant harmonica!

quote:Originally posted by Meatex_Salami

A thought occurred to me the other night
The same thing happened with painting in the past
everyone was concerned with realism but then when they reached it they decided to move on.
Perhaps the same things is happeneing.
What will happen when we are able to achieve complete realism?
Everone will get bored with realism and artists will move on.
Thats my thought

Bloody hell its a giant harmonica!

Exactly. Achieving realism leads to abstraction. That's how the impressionists were born. Photography came along and there was no need for realistic painters anymore.

Well what Carmack said once on an interview is that the perfect map compile time (This was before quake3 even) is 15 minutes, that allows the artist to go away, grab a coffee and a bite to eat and then come back and its finished. Going on he said that if you were to optimise the map compiler a lot and make it 10 times faster, then the artists would just create levels with 10 times as much detail in them, and the end result would be that the maps still compile in 15 minutes.

I guess the meaning of this is that artists will always be necessary, as there are things that must be done by a human, and if you just improve the tools then the humans will adjust to compensate. So don't you worry all you artists, there will still be room enough for ya's to create all those funky models and levels that you always do.

I haven't tried DP3D or any programs that let you paint directly on the model. Personally, I have more control working on the texture straight from Photoshop, so I prefer to do it that way. Does DP3d unwrap the texture off the model for you, btw??

Well yeah DP3d saves the texture as a .tga or whatever you want I think. It doesnt uvw map it though, you need deep UV for that

Lead paint: delicious but deadly!

Deep UV isn't worth the price from what i have seen, well after max 5 came out that is with automatic unwrapping. Not perfect but apparently cuts down time ALOT and gives you something you can tweak.
I have heard of another dp3d thing but can't remember something with face in it
ah well :P

Bloody hell its a giant harmonica!

im pretty happy with max5's texturing methods, dont think ill need to use chilliskinner anymore

ps. its still a pain in the ass tho

Edited by - LostSanitY on 02/10/2002 12:36:57

Things I liked about DP3D. The brushes, very fast and easy to control when painting with textures. Ability to paint different layers at the same time (opacity,bump etc) and projection paint for those ugly stretched or sqeezed uvs. DeepUV has a couple of cool features like to relax the uvs to ease things out. Its a stable uv editing environment. Connectivity with photoshop is sweet.
I tried out Max5, and yeah I could live with just that and PS. So, imo, for the indivual artist at home it is rather pricey, but for a production pipeline with an artist concentrating solely on texturing, its alot cheaper than a Max seat.

Oh yeah. The actual question, other software with demos.

http://www.bodypaint3d.com/

A cheaper solution is Paintshop Pro, and 3D Exploration for those texture artist specialists. [:D] hehe.. What's chilliskinner like, for those of us without Max5's new uber unwrapping kung fu?

Chilliskinner is garbage as far as I'm concerned, use it for anything more than a basic shape and it causes problems. I found that when it flattened out your model, the morph target wouldnt work, putting things backtogether by hand isnt fun.

Lead paint: delicious but deadly!

"UnRapper4 is a freeware clone Max5's UVW Unwrap tool - except it runs in Max4.2 and above. The functionality is identical, but the menus and icons are a "little" different. If you are stuck using Max 4.2 or you would like new uvw unwrap functionality in Max4.2, please "try my product." I am giving this plugin away free because I am confident you will come back to me for all your UV Editing needs. Be sure to check out the html doc before you start. Send me some feedback & feature requests!"

http://old.fileplanet.com/dl/dl.asp?/planetquake/polycount/Tools/discre…

I can't seem to download it.. can someone send it to me?

Excellant, excellant links!
I've spent hours at that Fineart.sk site before.. It's definately a great resource for reference material on human anatomy, and also animals, and manga characters etc... brilliant site.
That 3D Forum is awesome too!.. some brilliant human modelling in there.
Anyway, I've put those links in the modellers section.. thanks

Oh yeh. subdivision surfaces - exactly what I was looking for actually.. I've been meaning to learn all about that stuff. hehe

http://jamesmestemaker.com/ripoff.jpg

Hi,
I won't be removing David Coen's picture from the site right away as you've requested until he has the time to respond.
Having a look at the two models, I can see that his texturing is not a carbon copy as yours. It might be possible that you two used the same reference material, perhaps? The proportions are simliar, but I guess if you follow the same reference material, then it'll turn out like that. Although they look very different to each other below the waist. Of course a mesh screenshot of both models will show whats going on. In anyway case, relax and wait for him to respond first.

Well, cooler heads prevail this morning.
Here's the deal... From what I can tell, Mystical Entertainment's manager is stealing concept drawings from the web.
from Adrian Shuter, project leader of mystical development (regarding the concept skectch)
_quote_
As for the bad man concept, that was leftover from a mod project which I wanted to incorporate into our game. It came from a concept artist no
longer with us, and I wouldn't believe it's not ours. However if another company is saying it's too close to something they've done, that's good
enough for me to want to re-do it anyway.
_end quote_

Here's where the concept came from...[URL=http://test.earthandbeyond.ea.com/community/glimpse/glimpse8_13.jsp]htt…]
..and here's Gary Freemans/ Westwoods sketch taken from the above article.

David was nice enough to send me a screen of his working files...

He did build the model but the concept is stollen. My apologies to David a.k.a. FragCow.

the project leader for Msytic did not steal any concept, an unethical concept artist gave it to him with a touched up head.

additionally i DID model and texture it in eight hours, and did not use anyones artistic resources in the model and texture's creation.

I find the name of this thread slandurus, and am currious what is required to have it removed. Neither was I told of this threads exsistance, and while after abusing me in several forums publicly i have recieved James Mestemaker's private appology, i think i need to make it a bit clearer or simply have this thread removed.

I NEVER CLAIMED ANYONE ELSES WORK AS MY OWN. In the original picture i claimed that the concept was from msytic, which was in error and is now corrected.

David Coen

hold on, you REGISTED in this forum just to incorrectly accuse me of something before giving me a chance to reply to your abusive email?

oh, thanks a lot buddy.

I've changed the topic..

thanks, i will now get back to doing concept drawing for msytic (before i make any more models for them....)

Once again, I am apologize to David for my earlier remarks. From what I can tell he did not intentionally steal anything. The Model and texture are his own and done quite well, I might ad.
The problem is the concept art of which I have spoken to Mystical and explained the problem. They have been very helpful in solving this problem and I feel it won't happen again. One thing I DO NOT agree with is passing the buck on who's fault it is. Regardless of how the concept was acquired, the management is responsible for making sure it is not ripped off. It is not a reflection of some 'unknown seedy concept guy', it is a reflection on the company as a whole. I feel that Mystical understands this now and has taken the proper steps to remedy the problems.
I am sorry for any additional problems that this may have caused the company or individuals involved with them but companies DO have a right to protect what is legally theirs.
Personally, I will correct things in more of a private manner from now on.
Feel free to delete this thread.

i suggest you go to cgtalk.com and go to the character rigging forum. it has lots of information. You can also go here www.digital-dreams.net and this guy has a free rig for you to get, called ik joe. I recently got the Inspired "3D character setup" book, which is really good for rigging, although it's examples are for maya, im sure they wld easily be applied in max 5. there are some good resources in the forum mentioned for all platforms :)

isnt there a tute in max4/4.2 for setting up characters with sliders etc...

I was hoping to get an answer for you from Iloura, but seeing as they haven't responded to my interview questions, it seems unlikely they'll answer this one.. anyway, Iloura are an awesome post production and visual effects company from Melbourne. I'm certain everyone has seen at least one of their ads on tv - the most amazing one I'd say is the Monaro ad.. you know the one, the yellow Monaro racing through the streets against some other cars, like the Viper.. it looks like a Playstation game.. (an amazing fact about it is that the monaro itself is computer generated too).. anyway, back to the software.. this is the set of programs they use here http://www.iloura.com.au/suites/suites_main.htm .. basically, Flame, Inferno, Infinity, Final Cut Pro or After Effects..
Make sure you check out the rest of their site as well, especially the 'making of' pages!!

thanks
that should help alot

Bloody hell its a giant harmonica!

Sure.. go for it .. remember, if you upload it, it will be renamed to 20_xxxx .. (xxxx is the original filename, and the number appended to the front is your member id)..

Oh yeh, I forgot, there's an 80k limit with files, so you're outa luck there, sorry. ..

nah.

Go hard.. or GO HOME. yeh?

I never use any other than the ones that come with Photoshop