Normal Map Help

Submitted by Lloyd on
Forum
Artists

Hey Guys,

I spent today finally starting to learn Zbrush. After a bit of confusion and frustration I managed to mould a high poly version of my Spawn.

2 questions:

I'v been following a video tute and it seems like the high poly version should be over the top of the low. When i import my high poly and center it to the world, the low poly is still over the top with the high showing through in areas.

My second question is related to the cage. I'm not too sure my first question matters that much because the renders seem to work except for the fact that theres a wireframe rendering also..possibly the cage? how do i turn this off?

Thanks for your help. WIll post some screenys when i'm done.

Cheers!

Submitted by denz on Wed, 08/02/06 - 12:55 AMPermalink

Ay Lloyd. I didn't know you were rendering ur normals in max when you told me this.

Have you tried rendering them out in Zbrush?

Submitted by LiveWire on Tue, 21/02/06 - 10:37 AMPermalink

Might just revive this thread rather than starting a new one:

I've been at this for hours and after following two tutorials, including the one included with max 8, i've only managed to get this working once, and since then i've been able to replicate it. Either max's normal map rendering/displaying is unbelieveably un-userfriendly I am simply and idiot who cant figure out their countless options and obscure settings. Autodesk would probably claim the latter.

anyway, i'm trying to render out a normal map in max, and then apply it to the model usnig max 8's directX 9 shadder.
I've been following the max help file tutorial and [url="http://www.poopinmymouth.com/process/normal_workflow/normal_workflow.pdf"]this one by Ben Mathis[/ur] (pdf link).

I'm trying this simply on a low poly sphere and high detail sphere with noise on it for the high detail model.

So far 99% of the time i manage to render out the normal map i end up with one side odf the mnodel comletly black when the shadder is applied (the side facing away from the camera). It is not the lighting information or texture as far as i can tell - the only map applied is the normal map in the bump channel.

Once, ONCE it all worked fine and i had a perfectly normal mapped noisy sphere without any dark bits, but dispite my best efforst i havnt been able to do that again, which is strange because i dont remember changing any settings.

does anyone know why this is happening? or better yet are there any specific settings i should know about? any that must be on, etc? any help would be much appreciated since, as you can probably tell, this is starting to get to me[:(!]

Submitted by LiveWire on Tue, 21/02/06 - 11:04 AMPermalink

No worries, moments after posting this i figured it out. I had the Projection Mapping Options set to World space (as per the Max tutorial) rather than Tangent (as per the other, unoffiliated tutorial).

I guess i shouldnt be surprised that the max tutorial failed to mention the effects and/or importance of this option, i remember now why i gave up trying to follow these tutes when i was learning 3D...

Submitted by urgrund on Tue, 21/02/06 - 11:45 AMPermalink

yep, thats a pretty critical difference there!

Submitted by Makk on Tue, 21/02/06 - 11:14 PMPermalink

$!&%!%#$(*(&@@#!

Translation: Im in normal mapping hell

Submitted by Kalescent on Tue, 21/02/06 - 11:31 PMPermalink

I suggest learning about what normal mapping is and how it works, understanding its benefits and uses before delving into working on them with tools.

Livewire - if you had known the difference between tangent and world space before hand you would have know that was the problem, and fixed immediately.

Having been a complete n00b to normal mapping 2 years ago this resource I found absolutely invaluable. Cheers Ben!

http://www.monitorstudios.com/bcloward/tutorials_normal_maps1.html

Normal mappings a breeze - I dont know what you younguns are complaining about, youve got normal mapping tools right there inside your 3d program to play with!!!! 2 years back we had programs like ORB and others which required DOS action and commands to render the things! They where extremely temperamental and half of the time simply crashed for no good reason.

Submitted by Makk on Wed, 22/02/06 - 1:26 AMPermalink

Well "one" of the probs Im having the moment is trying to generate the normal map with render to texture in max 7.
Here are hte models...
[img]http://members.optusnet.com.au/~rowanfamily/general/nm1.jpg[/img]

Here is the cage and render setup..
[img]http://members.optusnet.com.au/~rowanfamily/general/nm2.jpg[/img]

and here is the resulting normal map...(ignore the uv layout, its just a quicky to test out the normal map)
[img]http://members.optusnet.com.au/~rowanfamily/general/nm3.jpg[/img]

..what the fudge is going on with it! Is it the cage? it looked fine enough in that pic above. Ive tried pushing it up a little but that doesnt do anything. Ive ran STL checks on the meshes and they came up fine. Ive got global supersampling set to 2.5
And the part that does render out ok, is filled with all this crap all over it.
What the fudge is going on?!?!?

Submitted by J I Styles on Wed, 22/02/06 - 3:23 AMPermalink

ok, silly stuff out of the way first.
You do have the two heads occupying the same space when you're doing the ripping right? not side by side like in your presentation?
Second, click the options button, turn off ray miss check (the red) and make sure you don't have include working model checked.

Submitted by J I Styles on Wed, 22/02/06 - 6:47 AMPermalink

well that's fixed the ray penetration, now it looks like a null ray hit issue -- I'd suggest checking your projection modifier (use one if you're not already) and making sure everything's facing the right way, and is in the volume. Post it if you're not sure.

Submitted by J I Styles on Wed, 22/02/06 - 9:53 PMPermalink

hmm, no obvious thing on first look, tell you what -- if you're interested, post the file and I'll take a look and get you a fix in a little bit.

Submitted by Makk on Thu, 23/02/06 - 9:41 AMPermalink

Nah, dont worry about it :)
Ive got to finish off the rest of the models anyways, so I will probably run into more trouble then...fun, fun, fun!

Posted by Lloyd on
Forum
Artists

Hey Guys,

I spent today finally starting to learn Zbrush. After a bit of confusion and frustration I managed to mould a high poly version of my Spawn.

2 questions:

I'v been following a video tute and it seems like the high poly version should be over the top of the low. When i import my high poly and center it to the world, the low poly is still over the top with the high showing through in areas.

My second question is related to the cage. I'm not too sure my first question matters that much because the renders seem to work except for the fact that theres a wireframe rendering also..possibly the cage? how do i turn this off?

Thanks for your help. WIll post some screenys when i'm done.

Cheers!

Submitted by denz on Wed, 08/02/06 - 12:55 AMPermalink

Ay Lloyd. I didn't know you were rendering ur normals in max when you told me this.

Have you tried rendering them out in Zbrush?

Submitted by LiveWire on Tue, 21/02/06 - 10:37 AMPermalink

Might just revive this thread rather than starting a new one:

I've been at this for hours and after following two tutorials, including the one included with max 8, i've only managed to get this working once, and since then i've been able to replicate it. Either max's normal map rendering/displaying is unbelieveably un-userfriendly I am simply and idiot who cant figure out their countless options and obscure settings. Autodesk would probably claim the latter.

anyway, i'm trying to render out a normal map in max, and then apply it to the model usnig max 8's directX 9 shadder.
I've been following the max help file tutorial and [url="http://www.poopinmymouth.com/process/normal_workflow/normal_workflow.pdf"]this one by Ben Mathis[/ur] (pdf link).

I'm trying this simply on a low poly sphere and high detail sphere with noise on it for the high detail model.

So far 99% of the time i manage to render out the normal map i end up with one side odf the mnodel comletly black when the shadder is applied (the side facing away from the camera). It is not the lighting information or texture as far as i can tell - the only map applied is the normal map in the bump channel.

Once, ONCE it all worked fine and i had a perfectly normal mapped noisy sphere without any dark bits, but dispite my best efforst i havnt been able to do that again, which is strange because i dont remember changing any settings.

does anyone know why this is happening? or better yet are there any specific settings i should know about? any that must be on, etc? any help would be much appreciated since, as you can probably tell, this is starting to get to me[:(!]

Submitted by LiveWire on Tue, 21/02/06 - 11:04 AMPermalink

No worries, moments after posting this i figured it out. I had the Projection Mapping Options set to World space (as per the Max tutorial) rather than Tangent (as per the other, unoffiliated tutorial).

I guess i shouldnt be surprised that the max tutorial failed to mention the effects and/or importance of this option, i remember now why i gave up trying to follow these tutes when i was learning 3D...

Submitted by urgrund on Tue, 21/02/06 - 11:45 AMPermalink

yep, thats a pretty critical difference there!

Submitted by Makk on Tue, 21/02/06 - 11:14 PMPermalink

$!&%!%#$(*(&@@#!

Translation: Im in normal mapping hell

Submitted by Kalescent on Tue, 21/02/06 - 11:31 PMPermalink

I suggest learning about what normal mapping is and how it works, understanding its benefits and uses before delving into working on them with tools.

Livewire - if you had known the difference between tangent and world space before hand you would have know that was the problem, and fixed immediately.

Having been a complete n00b to normal mapping 2 years ago this resource I found absolutely invaluable. Cheers Ben!

http://www.monitorstudios.com/bcloward/tutorials_normal_maps1.html

Normal mappings a breeze - I dont know what you younguns are complaining about, youve got normal mapping tools right there inside your 3d program to play with!!!! 2 years back we had programs like ORB and others which required DOS action and commands to render the things! They where extremely temperamental and half of the time simply crashed for no good reason.

Submitted by Makk on Wed, 22/02/06 - 1:26 AMPermalink

Well "one" of the probs Im having the moment is trying to generate the normal map with render to texture in max 7.
Here are hte models...
[img]http://members.optusnet.com.au/~rowanfamily/general/nm1.jpg[/img]

Here is the cage and render setup..
[img]http://members.optusnet.com.au/~rowanfamily/general/nm2.jpg[/img]

and here is the resulting normal map...(ignore the uv layout, its just a quicky to test out the normal map)
[img]http://members.optusnet.com.au/~rowanfamily/general/nm3.jpg[/img]

..what the fudge is going on with it! Is it the cage? it looked fine enough in that pic above. Ive tried pushing it up a little but that doesnt do anything. Ive ran STL checks on the meshes and they came up fine. Ive got global supersampling set to 2.5
And the part that does render out ok, is filled with all this crap all over it.
What the fudge is going on?!?!?

Submitted by J I Styles on Wed, 22/02/06 - 3:23 AMPermalink

ok, silly stuff out of the way first.
You do have the two heads occupying the same space when you're doing the ripping right? not side by side like in your presentation?
Second, click the options button, turn off ray miss check (the red) and make sure you don't have include working model checked.

Submitted by J I Styles on Wed, 22/02/06 - 6:47 AMPermalink

well that's fixed the ray penetration, now it looks like a null ray hit issue -- I'd suggest checking your projection modifier (use one if you're not already) and making sure everything's facing the right way, and is in the volume. Post it if you're not sure.

Submitted by J I Styles on Wed, 22/02/06 - 9:53 PMPermalink

hmm, no obvious thing on first look, tell you what -- if you're interested, post the file and I'll take a look and get you a fix in a little bit.

Submitted by Makk on Thu, 23/02/06 - 9:41 AMPermalink

Nah, dont worry about it :)
Ive got to finish off the rest of the models anyways, so I will probably run into more trouble then...fun, fun, fun!