I've posted something along these lines once before but i cant seem to find that thread anymore, so ill start anew! [:I]
First of all I want to express these are my own views and are based off 2 years of successful outsourcing to clients all around the world. Also this will be a heavily art biased thread [8D]
Next Gen is a term thats obviously relative, alot of people use something like Unreal Engine 3 or Playstation 3 as some kind of measure for the 'Next Gen' platform. And while those platforms arent publicly available yet, I suppose one could say they are still 'Next Gen'
But the fact is for the last 3 - 5 years, developers around the world have been working on such projects. So now we have 2 versions of 'Next Gen'
1) Developers Next Gen.
2) Game players / Enthusaist's / Students 'Next Gen'
To some of my more forward thinking developer clients, Next Gen now means Unreal Engine 4:
http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/9053/Unreal-Engine-4-in-the-Works-Epic-Ga…
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2005/08/18/unreal_engine_4/
Though I have to admit most use Unreal Engine 3 as their measuring stick and have been aiming or working with this tech for a couple of years.
Now the stats for Unreal Engine 3 such as the Locust Grunt and Locust Female (seen above in second link) are the following:
6000 - 8000 tris.
2 x 2048x2048 Diffuse, Spec, Normal, with numerous extra shader operations for specular colour, reflections, linear interpolation instructions, rotators and a whole score of others.
These models have been around now since 2003 / 2004.
Another Example, ID Software where developing these creatures in 2002! [:0]
[img]http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/attached/hazard/20065323041_fullbruce.jpg…]
Being strictly an outsourcer gives us a unique opportunity to look into the realm of many developers, to see what their impressions of 'Next Gen' really are, and I can say, while they are most certainly varied, the majority of them are and have already been
developing artwork at these levels for their projects for years. So what is 'Next Gen' to those artists?
Now lets look at the tech savvy gamer who laps up information graphics and gameplay. Because hes not actually a game developer but an enthuastic gamer, thinking about joining the industry and conquering the world etc - His views are rather skewed, he gets the latest and greatest games (some which took up to 3 - 4 years to develop) and bases his oppinions of what hes playing, or off early release shots posted on Gamespot and the like.
A good example here is a friend (who is not in the industry) but a semi avid gamer said to me "Oh man these oblivion armours look so awesome, definately the best ive seen yet" and hes right, they look fantastic! Yet I know that a majority of this artwork was initially completed back in 2004 and early 2005. Yet THIS is 'Next Gen' to him.
Already 18 - 24 months old.
Its a tricky think to explain, but basically forward thinking is definately the key. If your one of those artists out there that is really keen to make some awesome super detail zbrush stuff for game models, dont try and match up with games that are out there or piece of art that is floating on the net somewhere! Put your creative energies at work and push yourself beyond what you see.
(old hats of this forum will begin to think im sounding like a broken record)If your still trying to decide whether you should have a crack at making some 'Next Gen' artwork, For the love of god, get into it!
If you havent started learning these techniques your already 3 - 4 even 5 years behind the leaders! [:0]
I hope institutions like qantm are actively teaching these processes to students by now. When I look back - to my mind they should have been teaching it when I was there some 4 years ago.
Again Kalescent Studios are in a unique position to be able to view the industry, to have actively been involved in production of 15 titles in the past 2 years - form GBA & Nintendo DS through to Xbox 360 and PS3, its definately keeps us in a position where we are constantly re-evaluating the current trends for what we need to aim for as artists.
To give you one extreme example we have produced assets such as Barrels and Crates and even clumps of grass, with thousands of polygons and multiple 2048 texture sizes.
For what purpose? - Simply so it looks and behaves as realistic as possible! "Rediculous!" I hear you say, well maybe, but thats where its going [;)]
So thats my speel - hopefully it provides some tiny scraps of random information for the hungry bunch of pack wolves that you all are.
Feel free to write your thoughts and oppinions on 'Next Gen' art. I'll be interested to hear them [:)]
Next gen to me means art produced for the next, (or latest as it is at the moment) generation of console hardware. That means 360 and PS3, that means unreal 3. It's what you called the game player standpoint i guess. But i think it holds true for the vast majority of developers as well - how many developers do you know that are developing for unreal 4? several i would guess, but most i would think are looking to 360 and PS3, and many are still on 'current gen'.
I think your 'Developer's Next Gen' standpoint only applies to engine developers such as Epic or ID, becuase that's exactly where their focus is as a business.
Also i think "These models have been around now since 2003 / 2004." is a dubious comment. They may have been around since 2003/2004, but they are yet to appear on any current technology. Anyone can make a unreal 4 spec character, but if there wont be a system capable of running it for three years, will it by then be considered old work?
To me ?Next Gen? mean great graphics that don?t come at the expense of game play.
I?m sick of playing broken game?s because someone was more worried about adding poly?s to my characters boots than addressing crappy draw distance and lighting, & I?m sick of item and character that glow in the freaking dark! In a stealth game!!
Loom: To give you some idea, the character specs that we have been working on for various projects for the last 6 months, range from about 8000 - 15,000 tris with multiple 2048 textures.
LiveWire: I agree most developers would be developing for Xbox 360, PS3 and Multi-Core Processors PC's.
As for those models not appearing on any current technology your mistaken, they do run on current technology and have been able to run since the 6800 ultra (which is the minimum spec for deving with the engine) Its the 'making it fun' part thats taken all the time.
I also dont believe *anyone* can make an unreal 4 spec character - thats like saying anyone can build a computer [:)]
And from the artists perspective - yes if he or she creates something thats wont be revealed for 2 - 3 years and it stands the test of time, upon releasing it to the masses worldwide of course its old. Why would it be new ? they completed it 2 - 3 years ago [?]
Djenx: I get that comment all the time [;)] and I always answer the same way.
Making the game fun isn't my forte, I'm there to break the programmers engine and push it to the extreme [:D] whether thats for 10,000 x 150 poly characters on the screen or 4 x 50,000 poly characters on the screen. In any developer studio I'd hope artists create solid art, the programmers write solid code and designers make games fun to play, with a bit of inter-mixing for good measure.
Dont get me wrong, I have to agree with you ultimately Id rather play a game that could keep me entertained - because awesome art holds up for a few minutes / hours and thats about it. I expect more from my game purchases !
But perhaps that 'Graphics Versus Gameplay' discussion warrants a thread of its own [;)]
I agree with mcdrewski here.. its a moving target and I think a 'clean' definition (without getting into model specs) is something that simply cannot be done on current hardware/consoles. And by "can not" I mean keeping a good 30fps! :P ...well, X360 and PS3 are pretty much current now.
I mean, last year I was using "next-gen" stuff... ie. parallax occlusion mapping, 2048x2048 textures, HDR, SSS and PRT, Spherical Harmonics, 14texture lookup terrain shaders, 1'000'000vertex on screen scenes... but as the year went on, by July 05, I saw that 1hr Sony PS3 conference and immediately felt like an old-timer with outdated gizmos.
And now on the horizon is DirectX 10, the PhysX accelerators are out.
There'll always be the graphics race... and I do love getting my hands dirty with new rendering techniques, but in my opinion none of these advancements have been used for gameplay yet. What I'm looking forward to (hoping?) is that next-gen gameplay ideas will come along... instead of devs constantly pumping out the cliches with a texture, lihgting and mesh revamp.
I went off on a bit of a tangent there we my High-poly boot comment, didn?t mean to blame the artists for doing their job[:X]
It?s those damn level designers that are causing the problem[:D]
But back on track. In times like these it's becoming very difficult to classify artwork into generations; even content on consoles could be broken into separate generations as developers become more familiar with the hardware. What about 2d games, should they be seen as inferior or last gen compared to 3d games, graphics wise?
Never winter nights 2 3d
[url]http://www.atari.com/nwn2/_assets/ss/13_OldFarm_md.jpg[/url]
Sacred 2d
[url]http://www.pc.sk/drivers/hry/clanky/sacred/sacred_big13.jpg[/url]
quote:But perhaps that 'Graphics Versus Gameplay' discussion warrants a thread of its own
I'm looking forward to it [;)]
Good comment Djenx,
No I dont dont think next gen art is soley linked to 3d. The way I look at it is using or experimenting with new techniques in order to achieve something artistcally that hasnt been achieved yet. Back a couple of years back XIII even though not an ounce of realism involved to me back that I would consider it a masterpiece and therefore worthy of the 'next gen'
Making stuff look prettier and prettier and prettier will soon get fairly boring and the cycle will start anew it will be ultimately the creativity that prevails, not the ability to wrap a character in a photo or photos you took down at the mall of some bystanders.
Bring on the days when ingame graphics look like the WOW intro!!! - I'll be happy and stop these pointless rants [:D]
This is a great example of what next-gen should be!
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-Qw1ClCVN8&search=super%20mario%20galax…]
Interesting read.
although for next gen to become current gen - we also need suitable hardware.
We are seeing game developers really pumping out shit that cannot possibly be run at their full potential - which is great, as they are pushing the hardware limitations to the their full extent - rather than holding back.
just say in a few years, game developers could be using their million poly models(maybe lol), instead of converting to normal maps.
wat is the average player model now? around 7000-15,000 + a normal, bump map etc?
it will be awesome to see how much they are in a few years and compare.