Job and Work Experience

I find that truly bizarre. If you're on fulltime employment, you get paid super. Hell, casual's get super. Unless someone says different, that's something I'd definitely bring up.

definately speak to someone knowledgable about them not paying your super. im pretty sure its not right.

you say they dont take out tax, so is it "cash in the hand" ?
although im not aware of the legalities of contracts - i always though companies not paying tax is illegal.

Sounds a little on the strange side, take your contract to a lawyer and have it reviewed by a professional. You may have to cough up 30 minutes of a lawyers time - but then you can back up any faults with a law firms and even lawyers name and not "because this guy on the forum said its shoddy".

quote:
...I?m capped at a payable 40hrs per/wk - however since i started I?ve been working 50hr weeks minimum

If that is what's demanded/required of you, then that's simply not on. If it's your choice to do that, then I'd also say it's not on since you're only hurting yourself.

I'd suggest sending your work around to other places at the same time as going in to re-negotiate your contract. I'd suggest questioning it and asking for what you want and feel is fair - never under-value yourself.

If you're a contractor operating through your own sole trader business then you are repsonsible for your own super.

If you are employed as a PAYE Employee by the company they are required by law to put aside super for you.

If you are being capped at 40 hours a week, and you're payed per hour, and they expect you to work 50 hours, then I'd have a word to them as it sounds like you're being taken advantage of. Either they want you to work 50 hours and pay you for 50 hours or they want you to work 40 hours and pay you for 40 hours.

HOwever it's your contract and what you sign means you agree. Better to re-negotiate before re-signing.

Basically it is like the other guys have said. When you are a contractor you are responsible generally for super and leave responsibility.

Generally on a contract you get higher net pay so you can cover those things that you wouldn't get ohterwise and you generally only do a contract for the short term.

One thing to consider when doing contract the way you have specified is technically you should have a ABN and be invoicing the company for the hours worked.

Also there are contract management companies out there, that will give you a regular salary, so you are protected for things like work cover, indeminity insurance etc, and they manage all the tax, super elements for you, a few company examples are entity solutions and ayers management.

I would suggest having a look through the developers listing at the top of the site.

Pandemic I think are great I don't work there but one of the guys from team dystopia got a job there and has only had good things to say about them.

THQ from my experince in dealing with them from the dawn of war beta a few years back was very good. they kept us regulary updated and were happy to answer questions I had

I work at Torus Games in Victoria.. have been employed there for 6 months and I've loved every day. Other studios that come to mind are Auran, Krome, IR Gurus and Halfbrick. There's some more around, but nothing is coming to mind at the moment.

It might also depend on what job you do.. for example, if you're an animator, there may be some animation specific studios around.

Cheers guys, thanks for the responses...

I'll check them out

TB

Anyone?![:(]

"What should you put in?"

Well, your best stuff... its more impressive to have a 1min reel of top notch stuff than a 3minuet containing another 2min of average "look what else I can do" stuff.

Since my 'forte' is level design, I show off completed levels - not individual models rotating on a stand (which would suit a character modeller). So, focus on what type of positions you would apply for. Maybe even have a few variants of the reel tailored to different positions. I've got diff versions of resumes... for example, a picture framing company I did renders for didn't need to know that I can use Quake III editor, but they did need to know about offline rendering skills (which, conversely, aren't that important for QuakeIII mapping!) :) .

...ranting! Anyway, main point is only show your absolute best, your 'least best' item is your weakest link.

You say "for animation work you will want to show your skills in modelling, texturing, rigging and animating" which I think is wrong. For animation work, you want to show your skills in animating. The rest are secondary, and only need to be there if they're worth showing or the job calls for it. I fully agree with urgrund that you should tailor reels to different positions.

Another tip: put your best stuff first and last. The beginning will hook 'em, and they'll remember the end. And add music. That isn't annoying or overheard (ala no Crazy goddamned frog @:-) Watching a reel without music... just doesn't seem right. There needs to some kind of audio, in my humble opinion.

Some reels to look at:
http://www.briansum.com/
http://resume.artbyjustin.com/index.html
http://www.kay-kay.com/

Good overall gist of it:
http://www.3dark.com/archives/demoreels/index.html

http://www.sumea.com.au/sarticle.asp?art_ID=16

Thanks for the input guys, especially for the link there Hazzard; I knew it was on here somewhere as I had read it in the past.

Cheers[:)]

It wont be in 3D but if you want a pritty fun week of work experiense and get to know some angles of game development try wicked witch softwere. I did a weeks work experiense with them a while back. The'll more then likly get you to do some pixel art. fun stuff.

hey thanks....do you have any links or anything....ill google it....lol.....adn like.....can i get some more deatil son waht you did:p thanks:p

I know of two. [url="https://www.det.nsw.edu.au/vetinschools/jobsalive/profiles/games1.htm"]Camille Scaysbook[/url], who left Micro Forte, like, donkey years ago. And [url="http://levelling.bigkid.com.au/"]Ken Williamson (Monty) from Bigkid[/url] who works at THQ Studios Australia.

Ok thanks man, so they're really quite a neiche group, no one seems to know much about it.

I'll see if I can grab Monty here for a comment, but yeh, not much really is known about Game writing positions...

Thanks man, but its cool, I'll find out through other means

Hrm. You can contact Joe I think he'd love to hear from people involved in a similar role. Hes been film screenplay writing, and game script writing for quite a while now :) He was also the man behind the ARage technology at AGDC (in 2004), and at FreePlay (2005).
Should be able to contact him at his webby: http://www.joeteevee.com/

oh great, thanks man, I'll see if I can contact him.

Congratulations! Allowed to say where?

Well done :)

Congratulations [:D] Do you mind saying what your qualifications were, eg. degree, demo only, previous experience? Just wondering...

wifflecube in da cubicles!

congrats :)

quote:Originally posted by Angel

Congratulations! Allowed to say where?

Thanks Angel. [8D]
For sure, why be evasive? It's a video-games company. [}:)]

quote:Originally posted by Rohan

Congratulations [:D] Do you mind saying what your qualifications were, eg. degree, demo only, previous experience? Just wondering...

A Compsci degree, a collection of tech demos, some experience
as a games reviewer.

quote:Originally posted by mcdrewski

wifflecube in da cubicles!

congrats :)

Ta muchly. [8D]

'Know your place' - There are *alot* of people out there who believe they are better than they really are, just because theyve got experience. For the love of god, make sure you never gain that attribute. Keep checking your personal stat list - if ego has appeared, your first goal is to loose it.

Sometimes your ability to network will get you a entry level job on the inside without any game experience - just because your a friend of a friend who knows a guy.

Talent + Experience = If your truely good, there will be a place for you in at any game dev in AU.
Ego + Talent + Experience = Still get in most Game Devs sadly [:(]
Ego + Experience = ALOT of people fall into this category - and they are working in the industry fulltime.
Talent only = If your lucky and very highly skilled you might have a shot at making it in.
Ego + Talent = Doubt youll make it in - or you wont last too long once you do get in.
Ego only = If you have no exp, definately dont come across like you know everything. Especially if you dont [:P]

Lastly look outside yourself - alot of people dont use the internet as a tool for learning. Hunt down and compare your work with others as much as you can, read recounts of sucesses and failures, gamasutra post mortems etc - ARM YOURSELF WITH KNOWLEDGE.

Its the best and most misused resource on the planet - read and learn everything you can. ( Sift through the bullshit, your level of intelligence should help you decide what is and isnt [:P] )

Purchase books and read them for the sake of increasing your knowledge,Religion to human behaviour, historical recounts.

The closer you are to becoming a walking almanac, the more solid grounding your ideas will have, and the more areas you can pull your game ideas from.

Ultimately if your very best isnt good enough - its your decision to keep learning and keep trying therefor raising what your best is - or not, dont let ego get the better of your here, if no game dev will hire you - treat it as though you are not good enough, and make a decision to either keep going or give up. Dont assume that by resting youll make it in somewhere else. Always further yourself.

I agree with Hazard.

quote:What happens when your best isn?t good enough?

Get Better!

Scott.

DOH! I fall into talent only I think. Maybe ego but I don't want that one bit... egos really screw things up and I'm bad enough with people as is [:P] Maybe the Uni degree will help with experience. I get what you mean too, Caroo. If there's another industry like the games one I'd be trying for it too but there aren't really any.

Maybe sooner or later for whatever reason there could be more games job oppertunities... hopefully in 4 years time [:P]

Hi Caroo,

Ok firstly, I'd say alot if not all the people working in the Oz industry have been in your situation before and have shared in your frustrations.

Unfortunately I have to say anyone complaining that its not "fair" that developers want the best is just being naive and unrealistic. Btw, its not "elitsm" its business.

Secondly, if you have a sh!t hot reel or tech demo[s] and there is a job opening available then a savvy developer will give some decent thought to hiring you, no matter what your experience. Hell, they may even hire if there isn't a job just so someone else doesn't get you. :P

Thirdly and more to point on your frustrations..

What companies ask for and what they will hire doesn't always equate to the same thing.

Worst case senario they really will only hire MIT graduate programmers who can write neurologic pathway systems for the first sentient machine....

...just as likely though, they are after as good as they can get and have a "wishlist" that says what there ideal candidate is while helping to hold off the hordes of teenage boys who think they should apply for that senior modeller position because they kinda draw ok and there mum likes there poser/max hybrid model that took them a year to complete.

In the end if you really think you have what it takes...have a go at applying for the job anyway.
If you fail, see Reznors post.... get better, rinse and repeat.

Malus is pretty much on it there, they ask a lot, 2 years exp and all that crap but they dont expect it, not for a QA job, they say that just to thin out the numbers of the armies of kids applying. I myself was noob in stereo when I started, still am really I could draw ok, not fantastic but ok, and that was basically it, this and that happened and now I'm in Design for the last two + something years. When we were looking for a Level Designer some time ago we posted all this criteria, minimum Bachelor Degree, 2 years exp preferred yadda yadda (when barely any of the guys in the company actually have that themselves).

The guy we got came in, I had to take the interview, he handed over his CV and examples of Designs he had done. I barely glanced at his CV, he studied games in England or something, dont know, I don't even know if he passed. Degrees mean nothing to me, it just means you can write assignments, its the way you think, the interest and the approach you take that I looked for, thats the hard stuff to get and most of the time you can't learn that, individual tech skills you can, it just takes memory. Anyway I had a look through this Document that he and couple of other guys had wrote and thats where I saw the attention to detail we needed, he didn't just say "I got a cool idea for a game" he said "I got a cool idea for a game and this is how it works" and bam, it was right there in the doc, detail detail detail, how many rooms are here, the doors, where they lead, how attributes work, all this tedious stuff which games really are, he covered it.

My personal strength is my capacity for memory and covering all aspects of the game wether art, code, music, VO scripts, marketing, whatever, all at once, I'm good at compromise and dealing with people, but when it comes to flat out production and technical skill I lag pretty far behind, and thats something I saw in this guy, he also had the ideas, and more (most) importantly the humility (something seeeriously lacking in this highly overated industry), we could make a good team. I closed the CV and the Doc and just started talking to him, what games he liked, what movies, and why he liked them, and just general crap game related or not. The interview went quite a while and the whole time we talked comfortably and it was cool, at the end he even said "So come on, give me the job then" and although I didnt answer, inside I was saying "This assy bastard, yeah ok cool you got it" we gave it to him the following week (I made him sweat a little just for spite).

Basically what I'm saying is apply anyway, who gives a damn what they're asking for, if all they look at is CV for something like QA, then they aren't gonna be a very fun company now are they. A lot of the time it just comes down to the right place at the right time, and if you ain't in their face at that time then you wont get there, so to hell with the criteria man, I know for one thing you yourself have the tenacity that will one day pay off, so just stick with it.

All the numbers I'm about to spurt out are based off the last 6 years of observation and current trends that I've personally seen and feel are a good median.

~6 major sources of school level institutions, ~200 graduates per year each, and how many stable companies with desirable jobs are there in Australia? In all honesty crap all, and even less this year. And if I remember right, the number of stable jobs per company was around an average of 3 per year in these companies (we're talking hire a person for a career, not ten or twenty people for 5 months and let them go when the title ships. That's called seat-warmers, which we'll get to in a bit). That's a lot of graduates competing for quite a dismal amount of work.

So we've already figured out there's simply not the industry to support the sheer volume of graduates which are pumped out each and every year. This isn't even taking into account the fact that a lot of people spend time improving their abilities AFTER they've graduated and haven't got jobs yet, so they're competing against fresh graduates as well, and are likely to be at a better advantage since they've got the advantage of learning from past rejections and improving their skill past a graduate level.

It's a very sad but true state of affiars which you come to learn about after being exposed to the business side for a while. The general feeling is that there's all these people floating around, so you really should be picky since you obviously want the best. That's fine, but unfortunately it means that it's filtered to the best at a graduate level... This comes down to around 2 employable people per a class, so let's assume that as being a class of 25. 200/25*2, That's 16 genuinely employable candidates in an employers eyes per school per year. So great, 16 people have it good, the rest need to fight it out amongst themselves who can become disposable seat-warmers, and who are going to be packing groceries or servicing mcdonalds.

If anyone takes anything away from this post, please just consider this: General consensus among all the companies I've worked with or for has been that vanilla graduate level is not employable. So in effect, no school creates employable people, that's for the individuals to make up that gap by themselves on their own time while they're attending school. There's simply too many other better choices out there soaking those jobs up.

It's certainly a hard industry to get into, and of course it also depends upon the individual position itself, but Styles, in your observations not of stats but on the ground level, surely you've seen many people in it who simply go on tencity alone, who make all their own games in their spare time and are forever learning. That's the respectable stuff and the hardest to get, and in time I feel it eventually speaks over accreditations. Just because you've got a degree does not neccesarilly mean you're good.

All I'm saying is they shouldn't get discouraged at all because it really does for the most part come down to chance in the end, people in the industry are really not much different to people not in it, you could have skills in stereo but if you don't apply then they wont go anywhere. What possible reason could there be for people not to apply? and reapply, and keep applying, maybe because they want to save printing costs, I don't know, I cant see any other reason.

Also games is not the only industry to aim for, more and more with this next gen we'll be seeing further intertwinement with games and other mediums, the skill sets for the most part are the same, so branch out, apply within the film industry, business programming, writing, whatever, cause games arent games anymore. Look at Auran with their MVH, I personally quite respect the way Auran branch out into other mediums like that, and its that innovation which although may not initially bring the crowds and popularity, will actually be the thing that advances us.

I don't know, thats just me, I may be way off.

oh I'd agree, I was talking purely graduate level since that's where a lot of those fuzzy margins come from for requirements. Second to that... I've seen applicants rejected because the person looking at their application wanted to get to lunch. Time, people, and knowledge are always the best resources.

Yeah I've heard things like that too actually, and it buxes up the arguement all the more, any hopefulls out there should just keep at it. A lot of them have skill levels higher than actual industry people do so if they're tenacious about it then surely it's only a matter of time till they catch an eye.

I'll agree with the rest above (didn't read it all but what the heck). All you need to get into the industry is infinite patience and abit of skill peppered with abit of luck here and there.

I'm the guy Jacky above was talking about(thnx for the kind words [;)]) , and i can tell you my story of trying to find a job for nearly six months while on unemployment benefits...

It all begins with having a strong desire to get into the industry in the first place and judging by the way you are frustrated now Caroo it looks like you have this desire, i made similar posts when i was frustrated. I came over here from england where i had just finished a degree (which i DID PASS btw! [:p]) and i had high hopes that finding a job wouldn't be that difficult as i figured the industry over here would be less demanding than the UK in terms of experience/qualifications. I was wrong, its the same everywhere.

As has been said many times, qualifications mean nothing. Even my degree means pretty much nada. Hell even my lecturers at the time (some of which had a respectable career in the industry) told us pretty much the first day that finishing this degree (which i payed dearly for) does not guanantee anything. And its true. What a degree points out is that the person that completes it is generally able to start something and see it all the way to the end. It was extremely tough (in a - omg i have to do 26556 assignments in 3 days - kind of way) but it didnt really teach me how to make games better, what it did teach me was how to deal with tense situations, how to manage time, and how to focus on something and finish it in the best possible way. It was more about convincing the students that they can actually make it in the industry if they try hard enough (strangely many of them never thought they could get a job - why they chose such a degree baffles me).

In saying that it is true that when companies ask for degrees they are usually full of it, if the applicant can show them the skill then thats all they need. However a degree can help getting an interview in the first place... sometimes.

I personally applied with nearly every friggin company in Au and got mostly the same response: no experience? no cookie for me. I finally got a job after being interviewed by Jacky (sif make me wait a week [:X]) and got a tester job and then moved onto design before i knew it.

So, don't get discouraged, keep at it and eventually u'll get what you want and things will be happening so fast you will hardly keep up with it all. You just need alot of patience.

Get back to work Skunx and stop posting on forums ya slack bastard

Hi Tooner Fish,

The good news is that there ARE internships available in Australia. I know because I started out with one.

The bad news however, is that most studios don't offer any internships/work experience. Interns use resources such as staff time and they may not contribute anything helpful to justify the cost of having them around. There are also the added risks (that some companies have suffered the consequences of before) where Interns breach the NDA and share confidential information.

If you are really keen to find an internship, your best bet is to contact game dev companies directly and find out if they offer any internship programs. If so, find out what their expectations of an intern are - it'll help you know what you're getting yourself into and you'll also know what they're looking for which will help you tailor your application to their needs. Let them know why you're worth the chance... Let them know what you can do for them.

I got my internship by networking, which may be a good option for you too. Go to any local game developer meetups that you can find, like IGDA meetings.. and don't be shy, go and talk to everyone that you can - it really helps in the long run. For one, you'll gain confidence and it'll improve your communication skills.. and two, you'll meet industry people that could be key to your success in the future.

From what I've observed over the years I'd have to say that sending a demo is the best thing you can do to get your foot in the door. I'm quite surprised how rarely people do this, so for starters it makes you stand out, plus it tells people what you can do so much more directly.

"2 years experience" or "a published title", as far as anyone knows, could mean that you just wrote a slow buggy menu system, and employers know it. They value these things much less than you might think. A demo shows what you can do here and now.

As far as degrees go, in my estimate their value is zero. I don't have one and I've been employed by 4 different studios, most of which claim that a degree is a requirement.

quote:Originally posted by pb
As far as degrees go, in my estimate their value is zero. I don't have one and I've been employed by 4 different studios, most of which claim that a degree is a requirement.

I'd say that's a good point, but it's changing more and more- how long ago was it you were first hired pb?

If a company comes across an experienced developer like you looking for work they'd be bloody crazy not to hire because you don't have a degree imho.

One of the most stupid things I've heard of was Don Burrows (very famous jazz flautist) getting fired from Sydney conservatorium when it was amalgamated with Sydney uni. He was fired due to not having a degree [:(]

I got my first job at Tantalus in 1999. I already had a self published title under my belt by then so that was the "demo" side taken care of. While all studios put forward a list of things they'd like from potential employees in their ads the actual hiring process is quite informal - they don't go through the list with you and give you scores on how well you satisify each requirement.

I'd imagine something like a university or large corporation has a policy, procedure, check list etc, probably set by decree and offering limited flexability to those doing the actual hiring. Blue Tongue (now owned by THQ) has rules about how often pay reviews can happen and how much you can increase someone's pay during a review. This can (and does) prevent management from retaining the staff they want.

pb

Hi WiffleCube,

When I started sending my resume around, it was a little bit daunting. I had no titles to my name, no education (I never did year 12 or university), and the only game related experience that I'd had was making hobby games and a work-for-free internship at a local company.

I was originally only looking for a possible job as an Assistant to a Producer, but ended up landing myself a wonderful position as an Associate Producer (which means instead of assisting someone else, I have several projects of my own that I'm responsible for).

I've come to learn that the best people for a team are not only skilled, but they have personality traits that guarantee their success. Personality traits like a strong work ethic, good communicational skills (and this includes being approachable and respectful) are some of the basic ones. Two of the most important traits that a successful candidate must have (in our company at least) is Humility (aka no ego) and Will (aka the drive to excel and succeed).

Of course, skill is important and usually, only those with talent even make it to the interview stage.

Just remember that there are always exceptions to any rule, but you have to know the context of the situation. Knowledge is going to be your best weapon. Research the company and put yourself into their shoes: Why are they hiring? Do they need someone with specific skills and enough experience for a certain project, or are they simply looking for fresh blood to scuplt into their next superstar developer?

Ask yourself what you think it is about yourself that they liked enough to get you to an interview stage? Play on those advantages without being cocky and pay attention to what they say. And of course, don't lie.

Basically, do your research and you should be fine! If not, then just keep improving until you finally get that lucky break :)

P.S. If you do get in, try to never forget how much getting a job in the industry meant and always appreciate it.

These conflicting opinions don't help with making decisions. [?]

I really do wonder if the 4 or so years I'm going to spend at Uni will be well spent... I don't want to waste my time or my parents money (they pay for the first semester) [:X] I've considered doing an apprenticeship as an electrician somehow cause as WiffleCube said, anything is preferable to business computer work and I've always liked electricity and wiring. I could spend any free time from that improving my programming or doing a decent portfolio.

I want to work and have something todo with my life... I'm just not sure where or what doing [xx(]

If you don't know what you want to do, then I wouldn't go making and rush decisions, like signing up for a 4 year course that you may just end up quitting if it's not right. Going out and getting a real job helped me to realise that I personally needed a 'career' and not just a 'job' because a career is more fulfilling to me and could offer stability and the opportunity to really grow some skills and experience.

If you still want the life of a student (no money, school work, few responsibilities other than for yourself, a social life, exams) then go for it at Uni. Just make sure you are prepared for what you're gonna be getting into and be sure that's what you'd like to do.

And at the end of the day, whatever you do, just be happy because you've made that choice.

I guess the problem is that time is rushing by rather quickly. I'm due to go to the UTS enrolment day sometime soon so if I do decide not to go I'll have to decide very soon... Time to talk to parents more and stuff maybe. Try to think of anything I could have missed.

[Sorry WiffleCube for the thread hijack!]

A little of topic but just thought I'd bring it up.

While you may dream of that games job, this may help ease the sting if you guys are unlucky enough to miss out on a games industry gig.

A friend of mine works in the private sector as a programmer, he makes somewhere between $100 - $200....an hour.

I personally don't think games work is any easier/harder or that his work is any less rewarding.

Game programmers don't always get to be creating wonderful exciting new tech everyday, half the time its as monotonous, unrewarding and thankless a job as the private sector work is, thing is, how many games programmers get that sort of cash?

Hell I love my job and can't think of anything I'd rather do more....except maybe retiring at 35 :P

I bet if games artists had this opportunity you'd see alot more text based Xbox games. lol.

Just a thought. :)

YIKES... Now that is a level of payment I *could* live with. Normally I'm not a money driven kinda person (All those millionares doing bugger all with it but earning more anyway... W T F ? Go do something cool or beneficial with it...) but for that amount of pay I'd be crazy not todo it. I'm working on a project atm as a hobby job, and I kinda like doing it that way over maybe a more businessy setting. This way I can make games I like all the time. I'm not forced to code up games I personally wouldn't play. If it all buggers up, big deal. Bit of wasted time for sure, but atleast we'll all have learnt something.

And *when* it works (Not if... when! [:P]) it'll be fantastic cause it'll be a game we as a team have had perfect control over. It's not like we were making "Madden 2K6", "Battlefield 2 : The Latest Expansion Pack Containg What (Bugs) We Forgot To Put In The Game" or something else lame like that... That to me could be as bad as NOT making games, ie. making crap ones... repeatedly.

And on a final note... Malus, how long did it take your friend to get up to that level of pay if you don't mind me asking? [:P]

Edit: Going about getting a job this way though would break my Grandpa's advice - ie. do a job you like otherwise you won't be happy with it.

quote:Going about getting a job this way though would break my Grandpa's advice - ie. do a job you like otherwise you won't be happy with it.

That's exactly why I found my career in the industry. I have this problem where if I don't want to do something, then I won't stick with it for longer than I need to. For example, I had this one job at my uncles foodmarket in the deli. The first 2 weeks were great - money and new learning. After that, I was offered several different promotions within the next two months.. and I declined them all. I didn't want to have a career doing a job that was already begining to bore me. I didn't want to work up the ranks and become a state manager or whatever.

So.. I took my money, went overseas, came back and relentlessly persued a job in game dev - no more farting around like I had been for 2 years of wanting to break in.

And.. not long after, I convinced a company to give me an internship. Four months after that and I landed my current job as an associate producer. Four months into this job and I'm still loving it, more and more each day because I discovered exactly what I wanted.

My suggestion is to figure out what you want, and to persue it relentlessly.. never ending will and a head on your shoulders will go a long way.

quote:Originally posted by Rohan
...for that amount of pay I'd be crazy not todo it. I'm working on a project atm as a hobby job, and I kinda like doing it that way over maybe a more businessy setting. This way I can make games I like all the time.

From one that's been there (not at that pay level, but I've been offered that pay level to go back to it) - you make your choice and you live with it. If my experience is anything to go by then that pay level entails:

• Regular 24/7 "on-call" support (no cinemas, no drinking, no leaving mobile phone coverage area for the period)
• Even when not on call, always expecting a phone call any time of the day or night to help with a production crisis
• Long periods overseas, away from your family/girl/boy/fish etc working 12-18hrs per day. If you think that sounds ok, then let me say:
  • *not* London, Paris, New York, but Islamabad, Bangkok, Surabaya, Bangalore, Lagos
  • not four weeks a year, but 12 weeks out of 15
  • when onsite, your only PC is a corporate laptop that you don't get admin rights to so you can't install or play games or even browse the web.
  • flying on the weekends to be there for the monday
  • last minute travel (so flying from here to singapore goes via hawaii)
• Building [url="http://www.koziarski.net/archives/2005/05/21/enterprise-development"]"enterprise applications"[/url] where the only technical challenge is getting the work done in two weeks rather than two years.
• Spending months implementing Tax laws, Accounting practice, Audit compliance procedures etc.
• Never getting any free time to make or play the games you want to

Listen to your granpa - pick something you like - or if you want the money then go into it knowing what to expect. I predict if you do go for the $$$, you will never make the games you're dreaming of.

Hmmm... Well I'm kinda the same but for as much as $200 an hour... Well, that's a hell of alot to earn. And it beats any non PC related job even if it is business work [:P] (Except for maybe electrical work but this way I don't need an aprenticeship) Even if I did games I'd still like the money to spend on my hobbies, and games programming doesn't seem to be the way if you have expensive hobbies [:P] Choices choices...

Edit:

DOH! I missed your reply mcdrewski... Hmm, I think my problem is I get too excited without thinking about stuff properly [:(] One of my uncles infact is about to go to Singapore maybe to do banking related computer work. Being the stay-at-home person I am that'd suck majorly if I had todo it.

It's an annoying problem - My hobbies will always mean more than my work ofc, but when work interupts them entirely for the sake of potentially more money... Hmm. Yes it seems like my grandpa got it right I guess. [:I]

*needs to think more...*

Mcdrewski:

quote:# Regular 24/7 "on-call" support (no cinemas, no drinking, no leaving mobile phone coverage area for the period)
# Even when not on call, always expecting a phone call any time of the day or night to help with a production crisis
# Long periods overseas, away from your family/girl/boy/fish etc working 12-18hrs per day. If you think that sounds ok, then let me say:

* *not* London, Paris, New York, but Islamabad, Bangkok, Surabaya, Bangalore, Lagos
* not four weeks a year, but 12 weeks out of 15
* when onsite, your only PC is a corporate laptop that you don't get admin rights to so you can't install or play games or even browse the web.
* flying on the weekends to be there for the monday
* last minute travel (so flying from here to singapore goes via hawaii)

Pretty sure its no to all above.

quote:# Building "enterprise applications" where the only technical challenge is getting the work done in two weeks rather than two years.
I know of alot of coders that need to get work done in 2 weeks. [:P]

quote:# Spending months implementing Tax laws, Accounting practice, Audit compliance procedures etc.
# Never getting any free time to make or play the games you want toNo my friend has a reasonably normal work life with some late nights but nothing less than a games programmer would endure on a project.

Not that I'm aware of, my friend is very fond of BF2 and probably plays more games than I do and I play a fair bit. [:P]

I'm not saying its easy, far from it, but you need to know there are options out there.
Games are great but alot of people are grossly under paid and under valued, worldwide. Having fun and doing what you love don't pay the bills. [:)]

Rohan just sounded like he needed to hear about the possible success of the alternative, granted its not the norm but given drive and skill you can succeed on the other side of the wall.

Good luck with your career within the industry though Rohan, we always need more coders to cope with our grand artistic scope. MORE, BIGGER, FASTER DAMMIT!!! [:P]

dean: he's a lucky, lucky b*stard then [:D]

I'd work fairly hard in getting it out as soon as possible. Sumea has been flooded these past few weeks with job adds for various positions from various companies. Good Luck.

Hey there, the link seems broken?

To PocketMonster

I think blogspot was down for a while. Thats why you couldn't access the site.

However, we're just about to launch our site in the next few days:
Please see www.ghazawyarts.com (it should be up before christmas; but as you all know sometimes things don't go as planned.

regards

David

Also, my new email address for future reference is davidghazawy@ghazawyarts.com

What games do you play? Why?
What games don't you play? Why?

If you were asked to test a game you wouldn't normally play, how would you do it? Could you do it?
If you were asked to test a game you love playing, describe where you would start.

You might be given a game and asked to test something on it. You may be shown a bug and asked to describe the bug in a bug report.

And unless they have asked you to bring something, bring yourself.

quote:Originally posted by mcdrewski

What games do you play? Why?
What games don't you play? Why?

If you were asked to test a game you wouldn't normally play, how would you do it? Could you do it?
If you were asked to test a game you love playing, describe where you would start.

You might be given a game and asked to test something on it. You may be shown a bug and asked to describe the bug in a bug report.

And unless they have asked you to bring something, bring yourself.

Thanks for that mate. I'll give it me best shot.XD

and [url="http://www.penny-arcade.com/porktester.php"]read this[/url]

Read it. Very interesting. Just to clarify i was never under the intension that a QA was gonna be easy or fun. But hopefully it will get me out of the house, give me some meger pay to buy crap and I?ll be able to make a few friends with common interest.

Not to mention a possible foot in the door.

So yes. I know if I get the job I?ll be in for a world of hurt.. But it?s a start XD

I tip my cap to you, for sticking in there just like you said you would ( yes I remember your first post ) and wish you the best of luck on your interview, Hopefully it goes well!

Best of luck, Caroo. We're all rooting for ya! [:)]

Thank you guys. I really do hope I don't choke. But knowing a few guys are backing me up does really help me out. cheers guys. i'll tell ya all how it goes.

If I were in Melbourne, I would have applied for it :<
GL with the interview though Caroo! :D

*pulls out caroo banner and happily munches on popcorn* :P

I've just updated the job post from Melbourne House. They've had tonnes of people applying for the job since it's been up on Sumea a few days ago. So much so that they won't be taking on any more applicants who apply from today onward (they'll be kept on file though).

So if you missed out, you had to be quick!!

edit: can only assume caroo's post describing the interview was pulled :) so my original response is no longer that relevant :)

keeping my fingers crossed tho.

-d

quote:Originally posted by mcdrewski

edit: can only assume caroo's post describing the interview was pulled :) so my original response is no longer that relevant :)

keeping my fingers crossed tho.

-d

I just yea... deleted it becouse id rather be safe then sorry ^^; I wouldn't want my job oppatunity bashed becouse they found out i posted the details of what constatutes a test on a website.

In the back of my mind i don't really think they would mind but as said before it's better safe then sorry XD

My fingers are still crossed. i Have no idea on when they'll be back to me XD

More so than you being concerned with if they would mind or not, a post talking about the things you found could have given someone else applying for the job a competitive edge.

I think you did the right thing by pulling your post :)

quote:Originally posted by Jacana

More so than you being concerned with if they would mind or not, a post talking about the things you found could have given someone else applying for the job a competitive edge.

I think you did the right thing by pulling your post :)

^^Thank you. I think i did to. I wasn?t really concerned as I only gave...like 3 things away.. Those 3 things also being obvious to the point where if the person playing the game couldn't figure them out then they would have no idea what a bug would be to begin with.

I don?t think I gave anyone a real big edge. And I made sure not to state what game or type it was XD

Be sure to let us know what happens. :)

Good luck with it man, hope you make it.

Well heres the thing. It's my hunch that there gonna employ about 15-20 People for this QA job. [Based on the total QA staff of transformers was 20] So theres gotta be more then just me visiting this site and had an interview.

If youve had the interview With Atari on this QA position speak up. please dont give details but i'd like to know im not the only guy on Suema whos trying to get into this thing ^__^

I'd say you're not alone from here Caroo, I think people are just being tactical and not speaking up.

>_> <_< >_>

BTW, I didn't apply for it, it's in Melbourne and I'm in Brizvegas :D

quote:Originally posted by Morphine

I'd say you're not alone from here Caroo, I think people are just being tactical and not speaking up.

>_> <_< >_>

BTW, I didn't apply for it, it's in Melbourne and I'm in Brizvegas :D

What?s there to be tactical about?

"Hi. Yeah I applied for the position too. I really hope we all get in. Have a good one mate."

XD Melbourne House will NOT deny your application because your friendly.. I know that for sure.

It?s been about a month now... still no reply form when I did that test/interview.

The QA guy said that they where gonna start early next year but I got an inching they would of gotten back to me by now on weather or not I got a position so I?m assuming I didn?t get it :(

Is anyone able to shed light on this? Weather or not Atari's QA team has been formed and ready? Or anyone else who applied got a call after they did the test??

I'm gonna call up on the 6th of January just to confirm my uncertainties, But any help form you guys will be well received.

Thanks. XD

Hey Caroo!

To be honest, I think that they would all be deep into holiday mode without a single care for work what so ever! I wouldn?t get disappointed if they have not contacted you by now as it is such a difficult time of year to get anything from anyone. Your best bet is to give them a phone call in the first week of January, but be ready for 'sorry, our HR person is still on holidays'. Anyway, you should do the same and just chill out!

HAPPY NEW YEAR

quote:Originally posted by Mick1460

Hey Caroo!

To be honest, would all be deep into holiday mode without a single care for work what so ever! I wouldn?t get disappointed if they have not contacted you by now as it is such a difficult time of year to get anything from anyone. Your best bet is to give them a phone call in the first week of January, but be ready for 'sorry, our HR person is still on holidays'. Anyway, you should do the same and just chill out!

HAPPY NEW YEAR

very true point mate. *haha* you guys proably have been working your guttis out and are lavishing the free time. As for me i just finished high school and is about as bored as one can get XD

but true point. i'll wait more and just see what develops.

Well. I didn?t get in XD

I got me a automated bulk message telling me so! Eh.. now I gotta figure out what to do with myself for 6 months.

Anyways. To all the people that did get into the QA positions I hope it's a good experience for you all. ^^ Good luck with it.

I vote 1 for spending 6 months playing and analysing all manner of games - what made them fun or what made it absolute crap, why was it engrossing or why wasnt it, perhaps get hold of gamemaker or blitz and making some simple games incorporating your thoughts.

I took a look at your game design documents and youve got some solid grounding for good ideas which youve even concepted, so no excuse for dodgy artwork in your little games [:P]

Once you get a few of them done - display them openly here in the designers section for others to comment on, hopefully youll be able to get some really good feedback from some industry pros!

Hope that helps! [:)]

quote:Originally posted by HazarD

I vote 1 for spending 6 months playing and analysing all manner of games - what made them fun or what made it absolute crap, why was it engrossing or why wasnt it, perhaps get hold of gamemaker or blitz and making some simple games incorporating your thoughts.

I took a look at your game design documents and youve got some solid grounding for good ideas which youve even concepted, so no excuse for dodgy artwork in your little games [:P]

Once you get a few of them done - display them openly here in the designers section for others to comment on, hopefully youll be able to get some really good feedback from some industry pros!

Hope that helps! [:)]

Thank you very much for the constructive advice mate. iIll get right onto that, hopefully come back to you all with something interesting.

Fun and Cool. Thats all that im going for in my little games XD

There's an article on Sumea on portoflio questions for 3D artists, but I think it's worth reading if you're submitting 2D work. If you're sending out your portfolio to every studio, there's a good chance that your work will land on the desk of many of the guys in the article. [url="http://www.sumea.com.au/sarticle.asp?art_ID=16"]Check it out here[/url].

I think employers generally prefer to look at an online portfolio because it's easy... but you need to hook them first.

My advice is to email the companies you wish to work for, and include a single image of your very best work and a link to your online portfolio.
Sometimes that initial image can make or break your chances of scoring a job... if it's great then they'll want to see more.

Don't forget to follow up if you don't hear anything for a couple of weeks, this shows you're keen... and sometimes a phone call can go a long way too... persistance can pay off.

Good luck mate!

Before you doing anything, read these sites!
IGDA Breaking in Forum
http://www.igda.org/Forums/forumdisplay.php?s=44f0d0ace3621f26f2d42609d…
Solperama: Read EVERY LESSON!
http://www.sloperama.com/advice/idea.htm
BlueSky Resume Blog. Really worth reading it all.
http://www.blueskyresumes.com/weblog/archives/2005/03/index.html

Souri, thanks that was a good read, eeek, tough industry huh?

Red 5, sounds a bit risky like a double edged sword. :) thanks might give that a go.

Chaos, Thanks for all the info, I glimpsed through some, looks very informative. I will definitely read more up on it.

Well I still have about two months before I quit my job, guess it's time to do some research and fill up my portfolio.

:)

Min

quote:Originally posted by bumskee
Red 5, sounds a bit risky like a double edged sword. :) thanks might give that a go.

I guess you could consider it risky, but you have to stand out from the crowd if you want to get noticed.

There's an American book called "how to get a job in computer animation" (Ed Harris) and in there you'll find a chapter written by myself, which suggests some quite radical methods of getting your foot in the door of game studios... all I'm saying is there's a lot of people trying to get in and those who are creative in their approach sometimes stand a better chance than those who aren't.

I get a fair few emails from people looking for work, I know what I like to see and I will often take a chance on a person who is persistant, even if they have no prior industry experience (providing they provide me with examples that are up to the level I require)... some of these people have proven to be my best workers in both skill and work ethic.

quote:Originally posted by bumskee

Souri, thanks that was a good read, eeek, tough industry huh?

Actually, I'm curious as to how 2D Artists/Concept artists fare in the games industry. It's still a young industry, but it seems more and more professional concept artists have been involved in the games industry in recent years, rather than it being the job of the art/creative director or whoever happens to draw the best in the team.

From my limited observations, it seems full time concept artists tend to be well versed in other aspects of game creation like modelling and animation (Lachlan from Pandemic, Jason from Imaginery Numbers for example do a range of things along with concepting). It makes sense though since concepts aren't really needed at the end of a project, and you well can't be sitting around doing nothing.

Concept artists who do concepts only are usually freelancers and hired by contract for a few months. I think I read on CGNetworks that most of the professional concept artists that have worked in the games industry are concept artists first and foremost that do work for games if the opportunity arises. So they tend to do a whole wide range things (concept, story board, matte painting) for lots of different clients (film, advertising etc).

Anyway, I've been a bit slack on getting my interview to [url="http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3226"]Rowan[/url] but it'll be interesting to get his insights on concept artist'ing in the local games industry as I know he's had a look into it. If any concept artists in the industry are reading (Lachlan, Jason, Unit etc), if you could shed some better light onto it, that would be great [:)]

I think you are right souri, it's not a big industry is it? growing certainly but so are the number of 2d artists. Or maybe it's just too competitive like 3d area. Well I know two artist here in sydney that works as a concept artist. :P I still have time till I run out there and try make a name for myself so I think I will sit tight and build my portfolio for the time being.

Red 5, yeah being patient and persistant, both very taxing. :)

Min

I know for a fact that HalfBrick studios in Brisbane are currently seeking a couple of Artists primarily with 2D skills. You should check them out... www.halfbrick.com

I've done it...Many times...No replies from any of them...And I'm still unemployed.

Starving Illustrator Who Needs Employment
http://agent-of-change.blogspot.com/

There aren't many - so if you've got the skillz you should be snapped up! We need more XX's in the industry badly...

Check out [url="http://www.sumea.com.au/snews.asp?news=1741"]this news story[/url] from just recently.

Yeah, agree with above.

Personally I dont care if you are female or not. I would never hire a games programmer purely because she is a she... Thats a sure fire way to throw money down the drain.

I will always hire someone based on their abilities, personality and communication skills regardless of thier sex and it would be a poor manager / hr person who was biased towards one side or the other.

No different to being a guy... if you have the skills, you'll get the job. I have heard that a few companies would love to have female programmers on board. But you won't be hired soley based on your gender of course.

fyi, I'm a female programmer, but I'm not exactly in the games idustry...

From what I've heard, most women in the games industry have art roles. I also know of women in QA or design but not programming. It's strange because I know of a lot of women in programming roles within other IT-related companies. In that news story Mcdrewski linked, someone commented "The fact is, women just aren't interested in videogames." Maybe that's just it.

I've always said that all generalisations are inaccurate. Including that one. Damn. [:P]

However, saying that "women aren't interested in videogames" is pure flamebait. For example, try [url="http://crystaltips.typepad.com/"]Wonderland[/url], there's links there galore.

I do agree with Mdobele 100%, it should always be the best person for the job - always. In management-brain though, you don't just hire twenty "best people" and expect them to wok together perfectly. Different people have different technical vs social vs analytic vs instinctive ways of working, and mixing the team up is often a good thing. Employers do end up with a preference for "minority" employees simply to complement the team they already have. After all, hiring is a crapshoot half the time anyway, which is why there's that 3 month probation. If there are two people with the skills and the experience, their gender may be the only thing tipping the balance.

The latest issue of The Escapist has some great articles about women in gaming. They don't talk about women in the games industry, but it's an interesting read. Even if you don't agree with their points of view it'll likely get you thinking.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/issue/17/

//generalisation warning
thought one of the problems was that male nerds tend to have low self esteam so can easily be bullied by company into doing a LARGE amount of overtime, and females are not quite that dumb, so companies tend to hire males. also, looking at (and smelling) most programmers i know in the game industry, i personally doubte that most femals would want to work them. (to my defence, i shower every day weather i need to or not)
//end generalisation warning

Oh no doubt that women are interested in games, I was referring to female programmers. Being a female student, I know a lot of girls doing IT courses and whilst a lot of them play games, none of them are as passionate about gaming to think of making a career out of it.

On Triple J only this arvo, Bond Uni did a study and apparently 30% of gamers are women (4000 participants). Another study done by the Entertainment Software Association of America (ESA), reported 43% of gamers are women (these figures include games like solitaire and mobile phone games i think).

BTW, sorry to flyladyhawke for taking the thread somewhat off track. I'm sure that games developers consider female programmers just as much as men and as Mcdrewski mentioned, it might also be that females have a slight advantage because they're a minority.

I agree that a company will hire based on if you have skills or not, but (IMO) they will also be more likely to hire a female if she does have the skills. I say this only because: 1) Being female you therefore are different and do not need to "sell" yourself to standout, you already stand out and 2) Having females on teams really does change the dynamic of how a team operates.

Going on from that, there are not many female games programmers that I know of in the industry in Australia. Unless things have changed you have, Kate at Atari, Tess (Lead Programmer) at Imaginary Numbers, and another at Ratbag (Midway). There use to be (iirc) another female audio programmer at Atair but she left.

As for reasons why female programmers are not more prolefic in games, I do not know. Many can speculate about the reasons. From my own view and what I have listened to from other women there are issues such as quality of life and wanting a family. This is not to say that the games industry is bad, it is just to say that there are other areas that support what you want better.

I want to post more but have to get ready for work - so I'll edit in a bit.

There is actually written proof, direct from a CEO who I'm NOT going to name, that the only woman on the acmipark team was refused a job only on grounds of her gender.

She's an IGF finalist.

Another company played what amounted to a soft-porn video of the Tokyo Game show to all staff over lunch last year. "Zooming in and out on their assets" apparently (yes I've got that email, but not from who you might think).

Go for it girls, much respect earnt for attempting such a male dominated career. I wish it were easier for you.

Better specify, coz my name's ambiguous, I'm a he.

As a girl who programs (and wishes to program games), i often wonder why there are so few females who have the same level of interest in game development. I know quite a lot of other females who like playing games, and I do know (very few) other female programmers - so I'm not sure what's up.

My guess is that game marketing still being totally aimed @ men might b a factor.
I know there have been efforts to make games more aimed @ girls, marketed @ girls, etc. but they r still being marketed BY men ... so we end up with things like FFX-2 where half-naked chicks sing crappy pop-song because "girls like that stuff", and stangely enough females feel distanced to (maybe even offended by?) the world of games.

Anyway, enough rant, I think the industry is actually pretty welcoming to women who want to be involved, but u still gota have the skills.
Good luck :)

Pocket Monster: Whilst I agree with your comments regarding marketing wholeheartedly - I have to point out that Square do have females in charge of clothing and environment design and have done since about Final Fantasy VIII. In my mind a very wise choice because lets face it, as a general consensus, females have a much better taste for fashion than we do [:O]

Although Testuya Nomura handles the cheif designs - Fumi Nakashima has been in charge of a large degree of costumes for the Final Fantasy characters, right through to the Kingdom Hearts characters - Sora and Kairi.

Point ultimately being, Kudos to Square for seeking out a womens touch, I think it brings something totally unique to the environments, settings, characters and overall atmosphere of the game and as a result, I personally believe so many other companys are nowhere even close to achieving such an in depth and spiritual atmosphere and environment in their games. This is one thing Square Enix does *extremely* well.

Off topic as its more an art related comment, but thats not to say women programmers shouldnt be able to have the same impact. Im all for it - get in there and make your mark. [:)]

Yeah, don't get me wrong, I love square games, and I know that they have quite a large percentage of female employees (many Japanese companies have a solid amount of female artists and programmers on their teams actually). I even liked FFX-2, the design was beautiful - so perhaps a bad choice in my rant there.
I think the content of games is becoming more appealing to women as more women have a hand in creating the content of games, and when games are marketed more "cleverly" at women - (or even just not "not for women") it's a good thing.

Definately didn't want to come off as a square-hater [^]

We don't get a lot of female applications at work and we can't hire girls if they don't apply. So why are they not applying?

Are women just not capable of learning the necessary skills? Unlikely. There are plenty of talented chicks out there in other industrys.

Are they just not interested in games? Could be a big factor... but a lot of women play games.. check out WoW and the Sims.. what about simple ones like Neopets and Solitaire? I think this could be part of the problem, but certainly not the biggest issue.

Perhaps women aren't aware that they can find a satisfying career in the games industry?

I'm a girl and I stumbled into the games industry from series of unlikely events - it never even occured that people would get paid to make games. Then when I realised it was possible, I still faced the problem that most wannabe's have: where do I start?

Of course, when I finally found out what I needed to know, it only took a further 2 months to get an internship and another 4 months of unpaid employment to break in and get my first real job.

Now, the issue that I described is not one that is unique to women.

(C'mon.. how many moobs do you know of that seem to ask the most stupid questions... how many times have you replied "Why don't you do some research and find out what it's all about! You don't even know what a game developer does!")

The point I'm trying to make is that I believe we need to promote awareness about games careers... and we need to make sure that we're making it accessible and welcoming to both men AND women. And perhaps if we're lucky, we might also do some good for the local (australian) industry. Fresh blood, more talent, better resources for companies to make better games... better games for better money... Ah, I'll just leave it there as the perspectives on what I've said so far are already bound to differ greatly.

quote:Originally posted by Angel
The point I'm trying to make is that I believe we need to promote awareness about games careers... and we need to make sure that we're making it accessible and welcoming to both men AND women. And perhaps if we're lucky, we might also do some good for the local (australian) industry. Fresh blood, more talent, better resources for companies to make better games... better games for better money... Ah, I'll just leave it there as the perspectives on what I've said so far are already bound to differ greatly.

I totally agree! I never even knew I could make games untill I was 18 and going to Qantm. After I got into the industry I went back to my country school and did a presentation on the games industry and tell those kiddos that they can makes games for a living if the work hard. Unfortunately no girls were really interested but atleast they found out you can get a job making games, which was 100 times more information than what I knew at their age.

I believe that there are many games out there that were designed with a male audience in mind (and this is so primarily because the majority of developers are male themselves).

Women derive a lot of pleasure from social activities, hence entertainment like soapies are a lot more of a rewarding experience to girls.

Men seem to derive pleasure from team goals and hunting related activities, like football and FPS games. I believe that girls don't often make up a big portion of our 'hardcore gamer fans' because they don't get the same kick from most of our hardcore games as the boys do.

Besides, girls don't really need to simulate social activities in a game because they can have the same rewarding experiences just by socialising in real life. Men..? Well, they can play sports but that requires some degree of fitness.. It's much more convenient to sit at home on a computer in your boxers with a beer (or a can of V) in your hand. And the hunting kick? Well, let's just be thankful that it isn't too easy for guys to go around shooting people.

If girls don't like to play games then why would they want to develop them? Perhaps we need a few more chicks in the industry to give that 'feminine' perspective that's nice to have (though admittedly, in small doses) - it could help influence the game design so that it doesn't unintentionally exclude girls. And if we manage to get more girl gamers, we might be able to attract a few more female developers.

Female developers could help attract more female gamers, which in turn could attract more female developers. Hmm... it's all kind of a catch 22 situation isn't it?

These ideas should be taken up with GDAA. They are the body, that I believe, would be best to support these ideas. Understand, that while ideas alone a great, the GDAA would still need help to champion these ideas.

Also, think of who you really want to target. I believe the best targets are going to be year 6 and 7 and then again at university and tafe enterance. You can do a catch-all with the younger girls and then target the young women who are going in programming or art related fields.

I say games need female involvement, it could only enhance the game with female perspective ideas and creativity. Doesnt really matter what type of audience the game was intended for. They would need to be as good and as educated as the males though I dont think special acceptions are fair.

As a female who tried to get into game development for over a year and a half, I think the industry only has itself to blame. I tried everything from winning scholarships, doing work experience, networking, studying and working my butt off to improve my skills and demo reel and to this day I still have never even got to the interview stage. What more could anyone do to at least get an interview - please tell me!

I'd also like to make it known that on one occasion I did some investigation as to why my job applications weren't getting replys, I later found out that the HR manager of this company (who shall remain nameless, but they know who they are) was refusing to hire women. Not all companies have the same mentality but its amazing that in this day and age there are people out there that still think so archaically. Why would women from other industries bother making the change when attitudes like this exist?

As for me I've given up on game development for now. I've been focusing on other industries and have had much more success than I ever did with games.

Just my 2 cents anyway lol!

I?ve always played games but it never crossed my mind that I could actually do art for games, it was a fluke I found out about a short course at the AIE for basic 3D modeling. I did that course fell in love with 3D and will be looking for a job in the industry end of this year.
Now when I get asked to help tutor the short courses run in the holidays I always pay a little bit more attention to the girls and show them just how fun it is. I hope that by showing them a good time and making sure they don?t get too frustrated with max, that they will be more eager to continue in this line of study. So far I?ve only had positive responses and one little girl that couldn?t stop thanking us for running such a great course.
I think that?s important, not just talking about it but showing them if they see your having fun they might have fun too and decide this industry is the place for them.

...Where are all the female programmers?

In Uni, trying to get enough education to be looked at by the Australian Game Developers out there!

I'm doing a Bachelor of Info-Tech at Flinders Uni, and although getting into game developing would be a dream come true, it's a lot harder than just applying.

Speaking of which, if anyone knows of a company offering work experience, let me know so I can go there and do it!

Flinders uni, Adelaide,
there are only about 2 game companys in Adelaide, The Krome studio, and another small company as far as i Know.
I doubt you can get work experience at either of these.
I remember when i was trying to get in to the industry there isnt much you can do except make your own games to show off.

[quote]I later found out that the HR manager of this company (who shall remain nameless, but they know who they are) was refusing to hire women.[/quote]

Damn.. are you positive? I certainly hope that this HR manager whoever it is actually had a better reason than not wanting to hire females. If you have solid proof that HR manager could have legal action taken against them as there's this little law called the Sex Discrimination Act of 1984

Again if it's purely their choice not to hire women, then they're either stupid and/or ignorant and shouldn't deserve to be working as an HR person. I'm sorry, but I have little tollerance for people like that. Some of the best people I've worked with in the industry are women and I think more should be attracted to game development.

The games industry is notoriously difficult to get into so don't take things too personally. All you can do is try to get more experience doing what people want you do have to get in and don't give up your dreams.groovyone2007-01-04 03:25:06

[url="http://www.sumea.com.au/seducation.asp"]The Ambit salary survey[/url] might be of help here, which says a lead artist should be getting between 60,000 to 80,000 (in 2004).

quote:Originally posted by Souri

[url="http://www.sumea.com.au/seducation.asp"]The Ambit salary survey[/url] might be of help here, which says a lead artist should be getting between 60,000 to 80,000 (in 2004).

Ahh, sweet...I'm in the ball park then. Thanks Souri.

I'm afraid I can't help from a personal standpoint, or specifically in Brisbane, but if you haven't seen it the Education page has a survey of Aussie Game Industry salaries from 2004. Check it out here: http://www.sumea.com.au/seducation.asp

I hope that helped.

Simply be yourself. Try to think of the kind of questions they will ask you and practice your replies in the mirror. Think about the kinds of games you play and why you play them as that will be asked. They may get you to review a piece of test software and document as many bugs as you can find.

A good tip would be to review a game you have at home and write up some bug reports for that. Then get a mate to follow those reports to try and recreate the bug. If he cant then you haven?t written it well enough.

Keep your reports simple and easy to read and write them in such a way so that someone who has never played the game could follow your steps and reproduce the bug easily.

QA is all about attention to detail, good communication and excellent documentation skills.

Check out Drews blog for an example of a day in the life of an Auran QA.
http://www.sumea.com.au/sprofile.asp?member=444

Wow thanks for your reply, I found it very useful.

I got the job, I'm starting in a couple weeks :D thanks again!

Congratulations Rips!

Where you headed?

Scott.

Thanks :)

The Creative Assembly in Brisbane.

Kim.

Congratulations Rips. Welcome to the industry.

Be sure to come to the brisbane IGDA meetings and chat to us.

Congratulations.

Great company. Not easy to get into either.

Scott.

OMG Grats!

I am so jealous right now! =P

Can I suggest you put a little more information of what skills/experience you're looking for? Are you looking for grunts of leads? That type of experience etc, otherwise the current information isn?t enough to get a correct response.

It's pretty basic stuff. 12 fps 2D character animation (mostly walk-cycles) for a cartoony computer game. Have to be able to draw to a style (disney-esque). Prefer deliverables to be a format like .svg or .ai, but can accept pretty much any format (raster or vector).

Anything else you'd like to know? I know what I want, but I'm new at this, so apologies if I'm not making any sense. :)

This is really a sort of "name your price" posting. I have money and I'm willing to hire.

I'm not an artist at all, but I can suggest contacting a lead artist at a games company and then speaking with him about what you should do (may pay them to advise you). Then post a job add and you can always negotiate with they person you feel would suit your needs about pay.

Maybe a question to ask is what pay is your skills worth.

there's a very healthy outsourcing industry here in Australia (since most of our larger work comes internationally anyways), so I'd recommend just posting a job advert with as much technical and artistic information as possible, and invite bids - pretty standard process really... supply your brief and set it out for tender, then choose your candidate(s) based off gauging quality/professionalism/price/turn-around etc. Only thing I'd -really- suggest though if you're looking for contracters is it's a MUST to check their credentials and if possible any references... that whole trust thing, you trust them not to be crap and to actually get the work done on time and budget, and they trust you to pay them for their services in a timely and reasonable manner as agreed on [:)]

good luck! [:D]

Short Answer : It depends on the Company
Long Answer : Different companies have different agreements. You should actually ask about these in any interview.

Edit : I also know that many agreements prevent disclosing the terms of the agreement, so good luck getting any specifics!

I can tell you we allow it [:)]

mcdrewski: that'll be in my list of questions to ask in between 'working hours' and 'ownership of first-born'.
HazarD: I'll have to wing a copy of my CV to you sometime (I'm still redoing it at the moment) [}:)].

I was talking to some guys from a Brisbane studio (I won't say which one) about working on MODs, they said that bascially there's nothing prohibiting it but it can't affect your working hours. You can't come into work sleepy 'cause you were working all night on something else.

That's for MODs, in terms of working on an indie title or something maybe more commercial I'm not sure what the policy is.

It'd definately be worth asking in an interview if you have something you really want to work on outside hours.
Just make sure not to make it sound like there's something else you'd rather be working on and you won't give the job your all. Haha. [;)]

Honestly, who cares what they think they have a right to allow and not allow?

If they don't want you to work on things outside work hours they should pay you for your time. Same goes for contracts that allegedly prohibit you from competing with your employer for some period of time after you leave the company.

An employment contract in the games industry is usually a wish list, most are written by non-lawyers and take no account of the fact that they need to be consistent with the body of law governing employment and contracts in general.

pb

Wouldn't it be better to discuss this with your (potential) employer before signing rather than make a test case out of it?

Sure, it *may* not be enforcable, but the threat of legal action is really enough for most people anyway.

Ok, so say you discuss it and they tell you that you can't work on outside projects. What then? You planning on giving up your rights just because someone tells you that you don't have them? To my way of thinking only a sucker would do that.

pb

Here's something you can do if you're a programmer: open source it and assign the copyright to the Free Software Foundation [:D]

Try and make them sue the GNU people (who have the professor of law at Havard university on their legal team) too [:D]

quote:Originally posted by lorien

Here's something you can do if you're a programmer: open source it and assign the copyright to the Free Software Foundation [:D]

Try and make them sue the GNU people (who have the professor of law at Havard university on their legal team) too [:D]

That'd only work if you were the legal copyright owner in the first place. If you weren't then the company would mail FSF, FSF would check the evidence (would be pretty strong) - maybe talk to you, and then give em back the copyright (they have morals - they won't defend something which isn't rightfully assigned to them in the first place).

You would now be sued for breaching contract, and it would not be in your favour that you tried to take the copyright away from the legal holder and distribute it widely.

quote:Originally posted by pb

Ok, so say you discuss it and they tell you that you can't work on outside projects. What then? You planning on giving up your rights just because someone tells you that you don't have them? To my way of thinking only a sucker would do that.

pb

Then you discuss the issue with them and ask them to change the relevant parts of the contract. If they won't then you have a decision to make (do you really want to work for them?). I wouldn't.

quote:Originally posted by Dragoon

That'd only work if you were the legal copyright owner in the first place. If you weren't then the company would mail FSF, FSF would check the evidence (would be pretty strong) - maybe talk to you, and then give em back the copyright (they have morals - they won't defend something which isn't rightfully assigned to them in the first place).

You would now be sued for breaching contract, and it would not be in your favour that you tried to take the copyright away from the legal holder and distribute it widely.

We are talking about work you do, in your own time, on your own equipment. Good luck to anyone trying to take it away from you.

Having ownership of such work assigned to an employer is ethically and morally bankrupt imho. Also imho it makes no difference at all if the work is in the same field as what you do for work, there is a clear home and work separation.

Better warn people here: nearly all studios and plenty of other companies in other industries have these clauses.

Academics normally have no such claims on work they do at home, except if it is done for the employer.

One of the things I have to teach is ethics (afaik it's a requirement for a course to be accredited by the Australian Computer Society that every subject has a component on ethics as related to the area).

The golden rule is "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you".

How would studios that claim employees spare time projects, like employees claiming ownership of everything done in work time?

Sure it's unlikely to happen, that's not my point.

quote:Originally posted by Dragoon
Then you discuss the issue with them and ask them to change the relevant parts of the contract. If they won't then you have a decision to make (do you really want to work for them?). I wouldn't.

So you'd make a decision about whether you'd work for an employer based on the presence or absence of a clause in the employment contract that isn't enforcable either way?

Or are you saying that you believe such a clause is actually enforcable?

pb

IMHO - the point is that the attitude they show to your concern over the clause will show a lot about what sort of employer they are.

quote:Originally posted by pb

quote:Originally posted by Dragoon
Then you discuss the issue with them and ask them to change the relevant parts of the contract. If they won't then you have a decision to make (do you really want to work for them?). I wouldn't.

So you'd make a decision about whether you'd work for an employer based on the presence or absence of a clause in the employment contract that isn't enforcable either way?

Or are you saying that you believe such a clause is actually enforcable?

pb

Define enforcable? I'm personally not sure of the legality of the clauses, but it doesn't hurt to make sure that ownership doesn't cover stuff outside work hours with your own resources.

If they aren't legal, then ask yourself: how much money do you have to defend yourself even if it isn't legal (or is questionable)? Likely you couldn't afford to, or couldn't afford as much as them (so would lose), or could do without the hassle.

If the company, in my mind, isn't willing to explicitly state that they only have rights to IP done on their time or with their resources, then morally are they a company you want to work for?

Just to quickly give you a few answers, I've mentioned it before to another UK based guy putting his feelers out that the Australian industry is a bit of a sardine can, and as such it's healthy practice not to name names, and to stay away from politics like the plague... that said, here's those quick answers:

1 - Vast majority of the successful studios worth considering for a career move (eg, not just another job), are unfortunately international branches or satellite studios. However, most of these are justly considered Aus dev studios anyways, since they're independant of their ties to a greater extent and just have the financial foundation and backing of their larger parents.

2 - Brisbane and Melbourne are the main hot-spots; next up to that is Sydney. Adelaide isn't a big contender for saturation of studios.

3 - Typical working hours... well there's the standard expectation of accepted crunch overtime, but generally you should also expect remuneration in return... whether it be cash, time off, or benefits, you -should- expect something back. There are the known companies that take advantage of the little juniors willing to sell their souls to work in the grand place known as The Games Industry, but anyone with a lick of experiance is usually smart enough to not let themselves be walked on like that.

4 - other things to consider - quality of life, not just for yourself but any others you'd be bringing with; cost of living; climates (It's kinda funny but you still get people amazed by the fact that Australia does have a variety of places with different climates, from the cliche desert, to the snowfields, to London-esque drizzle); Salary expectations and pay scale for the career route you want to pursue; quality of life at work (much different from general quality of life on your own time)... this ones more culture and environment in the workplace.

So... yah, expect a vast improvement on the quality of life standpoint. You should be able to push for a good package in a stable company with your experiance, and should be able to gain a very nice lifestyle with that.

Hi Tartanboy, I'll try to answer your questions as honestly as I can so you're not under any illusions ;)

1. There are a number of homegrown companies here, obviously some more succesful than others, some large and some small.
Deciding which company you want to work for is an individual preference as you would know, usually based on the size, location and the type of games the company in question makes, and of course whether they're known for producing quality games.
I've heard of both good and bad experiences in just about every game studio here in Australia, just like most studios around the world... after 11 years in the industry I'm sure you understand where I'm coming from.

2. Brisbane and Melbourne are the 2 major game dev cities as far as numbers go.
I'm not positive, but either Sydney or Adelaide would be next.

3. Expect exactly the same as you're used to unfortunately.

4. Keep and eye on recruitment agencies such as datascope, and just one more thing... Brisbane is hot in the summer but has an amazing winter, and Melbourne... well, let's just say you should feel at home there ;)

Good luck mate!

Thanks Guys,

This is just the kind of thing I was looking for. This forum and the Aussie reputation for being very helpful continues!

As I said, it'll be a number of months before I do move but I'll continue to browse these boards to glean more info on Aussie dev, and should I come out to Oz, I'll stand you guys a beer! :)

Thanks again for the info

TartanBoy

A good place to look at is realestate.com.au ([url]http://www.realestate.com.au/cgi-bin/rsearch?a=sf&s=qld&t=ren&snf=rbs[/…]) it's great because most of the major real esate agents put there listings on there, so it's a lot easier than going to all the sites individually. If you select Fortidude Valley and then tick "include surrounding suburbs" you will get new farm and kangaroo point and any other very close suburbs.

New Farm is quite nice, but it really depends what kind of environment you want. New Farm is mostly units and the houses there would be quite expensive, but if you want unit living then it would be great. You can get to the valley really easily if you live anywhere near a train station, so you might want to consider that as well, but the closer you are to a train line, the dodgier the areas is as a general rule.

I would definately start with New Farm and see how you go.

Good Luck!

Hi Indianna500!

Great to hear that you will be joining us in this wonderful country! Are you able to say which game development company you will be starting at?

I do not know the Northside of Brisbane to well but I can give you some pointers on the Southside. Basically, the closer you are to town the more expensive it becomes. New Farm is very popular at the moment but it is really expensive! My best recommendation to you would be Greenslopes, Mt Gravatt, Sunnybank, Rochedale, Eight Mile Plains and Springwood. These suburbs are cheaper and are very close to the highway and bus terminals which take you directly into the Valley.

Places to stay away from - Inala

I hope that helps you out a bit and we look forward to having you join us in Brisbane!

Thanks guys thats all great info, i am especially interested in the `where not to go` info, I am sure you can appreciate I will be having a hard enough time just shaking the jetlag and adjusting to a different country.

I reckon I can initially go for a unit around 200-300 a week ( I hope) depending on how much i lose in tax a month. I have checked a few sites and that seems to be the average in Hew Farm.

I hope to be able to bike to the Valley from wherever i end up, have to shake off some of this flab i have developed since opting for a career where i sit on my arse all day!!. ;-)

I am still talking to my employers at the moment and dont feel comfortable telling who I am working for. I will soon when I am sorted out. Suffice to say i am right there in the valley, and really getting psyched about the move, I have posted on other threads here and have mentioned I will try and post a get together invite for people to meet up at a bar, beers on me, so i can break the ice and start to get some mates organised.

thanks again.

That sounds fantastic!

When you get all settled in you should come along to a Brisbane IGDA meetup which is a great chance to meet people in the industry. How long until you move?

New Farm is quite nice, I lived in one of the powerhouse apartments for a while there. Fairly cheap, good security, and nice enough; having to go through the valley each day was a little bit annoying however -- consider it the nastier side of town, you'll daily see hookers and bums taking that walk up that way, however you can take the roads parallel and you get little of that.

Anyways, good hunting :)

I do the valley walk to work every day and it's not so seedy anymore. They must hose the bums off and send them packing!

Even when I walk home at night after some overtime there's never been a shady moment. Then again I'm pretty shaggy looking... I probably just get mistaken for a bum myself.

Scott.

Scott -

I was wondering tho if when you are walking home if you are drunker than the bums...... That really could have a lot to do with it ;) Seeing as I know you babble a bit when drunk.

A running joke I like to pull on Scotty is...

*What Scott thinks he says at the clubs*
"Hi, i just wanted to say I think you look mighty pretty tonight and would you care for a dance?"

*What she hears*
Ragghle splonk weee blah blah frooopy doolop *spew* ha ha splat.

[:)]

Hey, if it works, use it!

And I babble like that all the time, even when I'm not drunk. :P

Scott.

Okay, I can see that we have drifted off topic a tad, but who cares, new question, what is the best bar in Brisbane, when I say best i mean one that doesnt have sport TV on 24/7 or the music up so loud that your earwax leaves under its own power. oh and how late do they stay open. Sounds like I would like to ask Scott this question.

if you where choosing somewhere to meet up after work where would it be?.

Are the bars in the Valley better trhan the CBD, or just cheaoer?

over to you sir.

I'll give you the tour. [;P]

There are lots of nice friendly bars about and lots of live music if you're into that kind of thing. Closing times depend on what night you go out... Mondays might be a bit miserable. Thursday Friday and Saturday are ok and you can usually find somewhere to stay until the wee hours.

Btw, our local is Gilhooleys in the city as it's central and pretty laid back.

Scott.

Thats all good news, as long as everyone isn`t speed drinking, up until last orders at 11.00pm like they do over ere, I will be happy.

Will be arriving around the weekend of the 15/16 Oct, dont know where I will be staying yet, but i am sure it will be handy for the city.

cheers Scott

Taht right, forgot about that quaint english custom of "Last Orders" :)

Queensland's has legislated the lock-in (which I'm sure you are not at all familiar [:)]) at 2am. You're allowed to leave, but nobody else is allowed in.

ahhh the `Lock-in`

dont want to get nationalistic here, but, i think the lock in was invented in the U.K. to get around our draconian last orders. Its one of the reasons why Pub Landlords are so popular and its essential to amke friends with them as soon as possible, they chose who stays and who gets booted out at 11.30, but of course this is never discussed at the time, just a series of nods and hand signals and you know your in, bit like the Masons.

but if all of the bars in Bris do it then Okay!, I have picked the right town/ country after all ;-), just get me away from this land of binge drinking light-weights.

Try setting up google earth (earth.google.com) with a new network link to my Aus Games Industry location link.

http://www.meeze.com/dpm/AusGameIndustry.kml

That shows the rough locations of most games houses in brissy (but not all, and only those that make the location public in our phone book).

I've taken a screenshot of the thing for you and named some of the nearby suburbs, but turn on the 'Keyhole BBS' layer in google earth and you'll get heaps of useful info.

[img]icon_paperclip.gif[/img] Download Attachment: [url="http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/attached/mcdrewski/20059914445_brisgame.j…"]brisgame.jpg[/url]
93.15 KB

PS : I know many of the younger people where I work live in Teneriffe, New farm, Spring Hill, West end etc - and a few across in bulimba. I'm guessing you're more for the family life than the nightlife though? perhaps somewhere further out of town?

Just don't head too far south towards Logan. :)

Thanks

I will sort out setting that up later.

I am on a trial period for 3 months on my own before my wiofe and kids get out there. Looks like I shall be fighting temptation!.

So whats up with Logan, rough or just full of crazies?. this is the kind of info I need so i dont land myself in the middle of a turf war ( I exaggerate but that kind of youth culture seems to be taking off everywhere.)

Goood shops for food nearby would be good as well, and a few good bars......typical Brit wants the mooon- on -a- stick, ;-)

from those labelled close areas, i'd suggest bulimba, its a nice area
close to shops, regular ferry across the river, and has a pretty nice area (oxford st) for bars and what not

Cheers that sounds like the ticket...I loved the name as well.
Thanks for the google earth tip, its great, will have fun flying the kids around later!.

looking forward to a nice cold one without any football hooligans spilling it ;-)

That was quick!!

Congrats!

Congrats on the job! - And dont worry, youll have plenty of ham-fisted NRL and AFL (Aussie Rules Football and Rugby League)hooligans to spill your drinks over here too [:P]

aww bollocks, I forgot about that...and i guess they will just love to chuck a fresh pom around...not that i am into that sort of thing mind...better stop typing now before it gets out of hand....

haha - no I'm just taking the piss, they arent anywhere near as bad as the footy hooligans over in the UK [:O]

Hey Congratz.

What will be your position? I happen to be working at Krome too :)

Cheers!

Thanks very much. I will be an `Artist`, a bit up in the air at the moment, probably Enviroments, but I want to get heavily involved in the concept side of things, thats where my real interests lie.

I hope to meet you soon, my visa has just gone in and I hope to be ready for my 13 October departure.

I suppose I can `come out of the closet` now, so to speak ;-)

wanted to remain anonymous just in case things went south with the offer
heres my website

www.lee-ray.com

I have prepared something for you on behalf of Sumea in case immigration doubts your visa!

[url="http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/attached/souri/200582492725_wifflecube.gif"]wifflecube.gif[/url]
7.85 KB

now THATS official
:)

quote:Originally posted by Souri

I have prepared something for you on behalf of Sumea in case immigration doubts your visa!

[url="http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/attached/souri/200582492725_wifflecube.gif"]wifflecube.gif[/url]
7.85?KB

LOL Cheers Souri [:p]

quote:Originally posted by WiffleCube

quote:Originally posted by Souri

I have prepared something for you on behalf of Sumea in case immigration doubts your visa!

[url="http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/attached/souri/200582492725_wifflecube.gif"]wifflecube.gif[/url]
7.85?KB

LOL Cheers Souri [:p]

If its from Souri, its gotta be offical! [8)]

LOL ...With friends like Souri, who need enemies!

Congrats on getting the perm visa btw. [:)]

Don't forget our wonderfull dept of immigration locks up and deports australian citizens too [:)]

Wifflecube, you still haven't logged into your Sumea profile account! I created it for you late last year, but I've kept it open because I know you're a forum regular. [:(]

quote:Originally posted by Souri

Wifflecube, you still haven't logged into your Sumea profile account! I created it for you late last year, but I've kept it open because I know you're a forum regular. [:(]

Ah, thanks. I tried logging into the frontpage with my usual
(forum) l/p but it bounced?

The forum and Sumea profile account are two seperate things. You need a new login/password to access your Sumea profile. I've sent you your login details in a PM.

Check out:

http://www.qldgamedev.com/index.php#cost

Never mind the ugly politician talking at the top of the page.

Creative Assembly also has an awesome page on Brisbane with an assortment of links you should find useful.

http://www.creative-assembly.com.au/brisbane.html

Brisbane is a great place to live (near the coast, warm friendly people, laid back atmosphere), and you should find that even a half decent games salary will keep you all fed and happy.

If you do get out here I'll take you up on some of those beers!

Scott.

Scott

Thanks for all of the above,That has put my mind at ease regarding the cost of living, and rent etc, etc.

The next question I have is salary. I haven`t been `officially` offered a post yet, but that sticky problem of wages has sort of come up, I think I blew the first interview by mentioning a conversion of what i was on before I quit; I could hear a large intake of breath and wind blowing through the conference room, so i have now adopted the `make me an offer` scenario.

so, guys in your view if there was an Artist with ten years exerience in video games with portfolio work ranging back to the SNES days up to PS2 and Xbox, with a degree in Industrial Design, would AU$45,000 be considered a good salary for Brisbane family living?.

what worried me is when converted only unqualified trainees with no experience and qualifications would be on that in the U.K. Its gone crazy over here with House prices, petrol, even food has gotten out of control, and Beer well your looking at around 5 - 6 dollars a pint ( and thats the North of England, where its supposed to be cheap!) all the more reason to leave as far as I am concerned.

and finally Scott, If I get over there I will have to organise a free bar in Bris for guys on this site and start making some friends ;-)

Thanks again your a star.

from a salary survey done in australia last year: [url]http://bigkid.com.au/2004/07/28/ambit-salary-survey/[/url]

Artist/Animator
Junior - 30/45k
Medium - 45/65k
Senior - 55/75k
Lead - 60-80k

Hey indianna500,

Can't tell you prices compared to UK but can compare to US so maybe that can help.

Petrol costs are a lot higher here about 38 cents US a ltr vs 1.30
Health care costs are a lot cheaper here
Food is generally more expensive. 1lb of Chicken about $3 US vs $6 when its on sale.
If you like to smoke you will pay a small fortune.
ATM I pay $480 (this is a fortnight) for a two bedroom appt. Decent location but crap design.
Cost of overseas calls and postage are way cheaper here. You'll find when its expensive a call to the UK is about $15 an hour.
Can't tell you about nappies :) I don't have kids.
For singles, its about $60 a month for decent health cover.
An "average" McDonalds meal is about $6 (fries coke burger)
To eat at a "cheaper" place to dine out you'd pay about $18 - $22 for a main (not asian etc)

As for salary, I know I do spend a bit, but I am on $49k a year now, and as a single I can go through that. It depends on how tight you want to be.

As for taxes I am not sure now, but somehwere over the 50k mark you do get put into the highest tax bracket.

Hope that helps :)

Heya Indianna,

Heres the tax bracket information that Jacana touched on.

http://www.ato.gov.au/individuals/content.asp?doc=/content/12333.htm&mn…

If its a bit hard to follow - basically what it means as an example is ( using the 2005 - 2006 tables )

Lets say your wage was $74,000 au per annum.
You would fit into the 63,001 - 95,000 bracket.
The tax on your wage is 14,760 lump sum regardless of where you are in between the 63,000 - 95,000 + 42 cents in every dollar over 63,000.
So your tax would payable on 74,000 per year income would be 14,760 + 4,620 = $19,380.

Just over a quater of your wages goes straight to big taxman in the sky. Hope that helped [:)]

Dude, it depends on what you do and where you're going to live as to what salary will support you comfortably.

If it's Brisbane, cost of living is lower compared to say Sydney or Melbourne. Hope you like humidity as well!

You can survive comfortably on $50k + Super. We have a compulsory %9 super annuation contributions by employer so when asking about salary be sure to consider this. Average house prices in Brisband can be anywhere from $220k - $400k for 4 bedroom depending on location. Have a look at www.realestate.com.au for house prices both renting and buying.

Brisbane and Adelaide both are supposedly cheaper cost of Living, though house prices to salary is not what is was 6 years ago!

A Car will set you back $13k for a Hyundai - 24k for say an Opal Corsa / Holden Astra NEW.

Average Big Mac is about $3.50 Aus.

Cost of Nappies is anywhere from $23 for 90 for 8-11kg or $32 for 108 for newborns Snugglers.

> You'll find when its expensive a call to the UK is about $15 an hour.

We have phone cards which $10 can get you about $300 minutes of calls to the UK.

Our Dialup internet is $25 for flat rate. Broadband can be as cheap as $50 / month for 1.5meg connection which will also include $20 phone card per month costing under 1c per minute to the UK. (TPG)

You won't have to deal with farmers feeding cows to cows or sheep with rotten feet. Most of the UK's organic beef comes from Australia. We don't use as much pesticide and fertilizer on our fresh produce as the USA either.

Brisbane also has a good Asian (as in Chinese) culture. So asian food is good and cheap.

Thats great info!

Thanks very much to all of you and if I am lucky enough to get an interview over there i will post an open invite for a pint in Bris.

Cheers guys

hi there...your in exactly the same boat as me...ive just accepted an offer with a brisbane developer and like you was concerned regards the difference in uk/ozzy salaries.
ive done a fair bit of research and have just decided the best way to find out is to go for it...i mean whats the worst that can happen??
if you didnt decide on the move down under ill post a response in a month letting you know if the $45 000 is enough :-)

I have been wondering what the costs of living in Brisbane were like compared and this gives me an estimate to work off when i eventually move for Uni or a job.