Job and Work Experience

I've sent an email to THQ Australia about this. Hopefully we can get some details soon!

Got a reply back. They're not opening up a new studio, but they are hiring positions from across all disciplines. Kinda like the ad we posted a while back for THQ - seems they're still looking!

http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1297

where in australia are they opening up the new studio?

Tachyon: "They're not opening up a new studio"

assumption is it'll be their development studio here in Brisbane -- only other branch I'm aware of is their marketing/publishing branch in Melb.

but then we gotta move to California...

Given a choice between doing QA during night shift (again) and stabbing myself in the eye with my official Ian Hewitson barbecue cooking tongs...HAND ME THE BIG MEAT STABBERS HEWIE!!

night testing... man.. for blizzard you say ??... arduous work - soon enough whoever lands that job will be finding there vocabulary changing... replacing acknowledgements words and phrases like 'yes' and 'okay sure thing' - with 'zug-zug'.

or something like 'Garboo'
Yeah I forget what it was but I was reading something saying that testing is really hard work, repetitive and all that!

quote:Originally posted by Gazunta

Given a choice between doing QA during night shift (again) and stabbing myself in the eye with my official Ian Hewitson barbecue cooking tongs...HAND ME THE BIG MEAT STABBERS HEWIE!!

Yeah, but it did put you in a position where you could move into development didn't it? The way I see it if you get into QA - as shitty as the job can be - at least you're IN the company and it's much easier to get your talents noticed.

"official Ian Hewitson barbecue cooking tongs"

hahaha, yeah i've got a pair of those. *cough*

Oh, don't get me wrong - I honestly loved QA. It is hard work, and it can be repetitive, but I knew that going in. (That's where I think a lot of the complaints from other people about working in QA come from - people who thought the role was easier / more fun than the reality and so get disillusioned - I knew what it was from the start)

But that doesn't change that night shift was a bugger. :) (Though I found it easier to get work done)

Heck, if I had to, I'd have no problems doing QA again.*

And yeah folks as Steve said, working QA is a huge, huge, huge, HUGE help to get noticed around whatever company you're in. I wouldn't be where I am now if it wasn't for my experience as QA tester and then lead. Anyone who thinks QA is beneath them is locking themselves out of so many opportunities. I think working in QA (and believe me, it really is work) makes you a better designer / producer / artist / musician / you name it. So many people I know started in QA, and I have all the more respect for them because of that.

- gazunta

* note to steve: not any time soon though :)

where abouts do you work gazunta ?

At my desk, usually sitting in my chair.

And now for the non-smart ass response: Krome Studios.

oh me to,.. thats great :D

That's exactly the position I would love to start at and work my way up: QA Tester.

I've been trying to speak the Michael Crimmins about my resume and if he can offer any improvements on it, however I've yet to recieve a reply. Whether he's been really really busy with the combination of their mail servers having a fit, I'd love to work for Krome Studios in any way, shape or form.

Btw, Gazunta and HazarD, does Robert "Bob" Buttersworth still work at Krome?

lol morphine i dont work at krome - i do work from my desk / sitting at my chair tho [;)]

You lied to me!!! BOOOO! [:D]

Me too, sit at home, working on my own work. Quite boring actually [:p]

i love it man - gives me lots of time to focus on building my skills. i can design what i want , build it make it happen / teach myself with the help of others. To a level where i get good enough to take on the role as a junior in a company :D

I guess so, but I'd rather be working on something that I'd be getting paid for [8D]

However, it is good because you can work on your own work and see what other people think of it (eg. Exhibition Discussion). Right now I'm getting together some reference pics to add to my Orc Engineer concept pic. I've released I should have gotten a bigger sized piece of paper instead of my A4 art book [:(!]

quote:Originally posted by matias

Yeah I forget what it was but I was reading something saying that testing is really hard work, repetitive and all that!

Hehe, yeah it is. One of our Testers on Generals said this about testing.

quote:Picture you work for disneyland and your job was to make sure the rides work. Your specific job is "Its a Small World." Now picture riding the boat for 8 hours straight, in "It's a small world," and it's broken in "German Town!" That's alot like being in Test.

For those that don't know, "Its a small world" is a 15 minute ride with the song being sung over, and over, and over, and....

Personally you would never catch me doing a test job. I mean, your sole job is to tell someone who's been working 3 days straight, no sleep, extremely stressed, that the thing they just put in, doesn't work. Heh, it's a very stressful, not appreciative position.

All though, I do have to say, Blizzard does treat their testers okay (pay a little less, but they do give bonuses).

Any developer (individual, not company) who doesn't appreciate testers, is (honestly) a moron.

Testers are your first line of defence. Your safety net. They're the ones who take over when you _think_ you've tested something enough. This is particularly true if they're internal, and they spot those really nasty bugs in the latest build don't go all the way through to the publisher.

Sure, testers will raise all sorts of crazy issues, and often be unsure as to what state a certain component of the game should be in ("yeah, it will look like that until component X is complete"), but it's not their job to know this stuff.

Repect your testers.

cheers

quote:Sure, testers will raise all sorts of crazy issues, and often be unsure as to what state a certain component of the game should be in ("yeah, it will look like that until component X is complete"), but it's not their job to know this stuff.

IMO, Wrong. It is part of their job to know this stuff, what use is telling the developers something they already know?
However! It is the developers (probably the leads or producer) to TELL the testers what state various components are in. If the developers don't do their job correctly, the testers can't be expected to perform to their best ability and it slows everyone down (with bogus bug reports etc.).
This is where good bug tracking software, used properly, can ber very beneficial. The logs can also provide an interesting timeline of the project :)
CYer, Blitz

Exactly, there must be clear communication between the leads/team and the testers. The point i am making is that it is their job to test, not to know what state every component is in.

Being able to keep tabs on the state of all aspects of the game, AS WELL AS provide solid testing is what sets apart a great testers (lead tester?).

cheers

This whole thing about QA testers may be something i'll keep in mind when looking for somewhere to start with work experience.

I put very little value on a piece of paper.

Peices of paper wont make you talented unfortunately, no matter how hard you rub them. I have found it hard getting work in the games industry in particular. Often these studios arent after a peice of paper, they look for technical ability and artistic flair. I might be wrong, but this is generally what ive picked up along the way (havent broken into the games industry as of yet! but i wont give up).

The best advice i can give is to use what you have learnt from your academic diciplines toward learning the programs you mentioned like 3dsmax and photoshop, these are some that are widely used in the industry. Build up your folio so that these studios dont look at you as someone they have to train from scratch, you will already know the basics atleast.

This will give you more confidence when applying for jobs I imagine also

The paper can and will help but I also think its a concept of researching the best areas in which to get into. I could see how they would feel that a multimedia degree of any sort would not be much use to them. And - as was talked about at the student panel at AGDC - companies are not really interested in seeing paper with games development on them as it is too niche of an area of study.

For example: When (for programming) you come up with a degree that says Computer Science companies have a decent understand of what that student was taught and should know from their time during that degree. Thus they have a basic idea of the quality of applicant they are getting.

I have a friend that is in his last year of a degree- did the course so he could get into the games industry. in his final year and they havent even touched 3D yet. in the end he will only end up with about 2 months of 3d, and thats UNI 3D....useless.

The piece of paper isn't a magic ticket, it's just another tool... Use what you learned to do something cool and impress them with it. Figure out what they want, and give it to them!

(Yes I am still unemployed, but I'm working on it...)

quote:Originally posted by inglis

I have a friend that is in his last year of a degree- did the course so he could get into the games industry. in his final year and they havent even touched 3D yet. in the end he will only end up with about 2 months of 3d, and thats UNI 3D....useless.

There was no 3D at all in my uni course, unless you count a little bit of algebra, but I am a programmer. Was he doing programming or art type things?

art

In my opinion, a piece of paper is equal to:
-another bullet point on your resume'
-affording you that time to push into the area you wish to go
-showing determination and ability to complete something big
-contacts, contacts, contacts - it's all about the people

what you get out is what you put in. Go to the conferences, get stuck into the social side of the industry, talk to people. Don't wait 'til the end of the year and send out "I WANT A JOB" letters.

it will also help you if you ever decide to try and get a US working visa.

Education is valuable. Just because you cannot get work yet, it doesn't mean it's been a waste of time. I had trouble with my dip. of multimedia (it was lame as far as games is concerned) but the workload was light so I did more relevant stuff on the side.

Maybe what you need to do is focus on a particular area (do you want to be an artist or programmer?) and work on that particular skills set. I noticed you don't have a folio linked from your profile. Where is it? Show your work, improve it, get a temporary job to get some cash, keep going. Turn your 7 posts into 70 or 700, you'll get a job m8 [:)]

im at the Uni of Tasmania and in the 3rd year they have a unit called Computer Graphics and Animation which involves using OpenGL to do some 3D programming stuff...the only games programming unit they have is in the Honours year and is called, funnily enough Games Programming, which goes back to the stuff covered in the 3rd year unit and applys it all to games...

come to Tas I say and keep me company!

My advise is to try and be as different as possible to everyone else looking for their first game job, this means using your imagination... It's so important to stand out from the crowd if you want to get noticed.

As you'd all be aware most studios advertise they prefer applicants with industry experience, while this is essential for senior roles it's often not really that important if the studio see's an outstanding, creative and original portfolio/demo from an inexperienced applicant, (I know of many studios who hire inexperienced staff) and as most of you agree, formal qualifications for artists usually means absolutely nothing.

Of course knowing somebody on the inside often helps, but timing can be just as important.
Keep your eyes on the gaming news sites and any mention or rumor of a company acquiring a new contract means it's time to act, don't wait for studios to advertise positions, and don't be too fussy... getting your foot in the door is more important than choosing who you want to work for, it'll pay off in the long run.

I know it's difficult and it seems to be getting harder all the time, but if you persist and have the talent you will eventually get in.

I think "absolutely nothing" is a bit of an overstatement Red. Formal training for artists can mean learning how to schedule time, get things done to completion, following orders, and possibly working in groups as well.. on top of being taught correct theory and practices.

Paper don't show your skill, it shows your persistance the only skill shown is in your work

Agreed, "absolutely nothing" probably was an overstatement and yes formal training can teach people how to schedule time etc, but when it comes time to looking through dozens of artists resumes/portfolios it's the quality of content and presentation that usually counts for most.
Seeing something that jumps out and tells you "this person has a special talent" will always win (and get an interview) over the highly qualified but average applicant.
Also, just because a person has completed and passed a course in game development doesn't always mean they've learnt the nessasary skills needed to hold a job in the workplace, some argue that certain people pick up bad and difficult to break habits during some forms of institutional training, and therefore prefer to employ self taught applicants.

Agreed. Needless to say it depends on the course content and quality. Interesting point about picking up bad habits... I wonder how many I've picked up from forums? [:)]

Uni's aren't there to get you jobs, you're meant to get yourself a job, and uni's are only there to teach you advanced academic and/or artistic skills. If you've only gone to uni to try and get a job from it then you've obviously wasted your time and money.

http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1366

Mario from Sidhe Interactive says that all there programmers are uni graduates. That blows your theory out of the water.

In jobs like accounting and e-commerce than the degree counts a lot. In the Game dev industry i think it's aminly how well you can do what you do. Not how you learned to do it.

My dream job would have to be either a games designer or executive producer. With the courses I have completed I understand the fundamentals of communication, hr, project management, graphic design, teamwork and other skills. Also, outside of that I've completed AMEB level 8 pianoforte (I could teach if I want, but I couldn't stand brats [:D]) and AMEB level 4 theory. Apart from that, I've learnt alot from playing heaps of games and I find myself not playing the games anymore, but analysing and thinking, "where would the designers put in this corner of a room?" or "There is going to be an enemy right HERE!" (*BAM *BAM!) [:D]

In my moderate experience of job hunting/gaining, tertiary edu. seems to be a good enticement for getting interviews but not landing jobs. It does(or should) indicate the applicant has good academic skills, that's all. I've been told tertiary qualification can be a tie-breaker if two applicants are equally suitable for the position.

Personally I have found Networking is the way to go. It is even more powerful that having experience or good work (that comment should raise some eyebrows! ...within limits, I mean) Replying to advertised jobs is like a lottery, their might be 70+ applicants, 20+ of them might be all qualified for the tasks, better odds at the casino.

network.brownnose.worktheroom.presstheflesh...how? well if I had a good answer to that I would be working in the games industry [:p]

Contacts can do wonders when it comes to getting in the door, but you have to have the skills to follow through...

I also like morphine, find myself analysing games. But not stuff about maps or what ever but the characters. This is cos my dream job would be to be a character modeler, so what i do is observe the charters as they run around and stuff and look at proportions and textures, that kind of stuff. I think it helps a lot, because you are kind of indirectly learning from the people who are already at the point you want to someday be in. Enter Paul Steed :P

I just recently finished worked on UT2004 at Epic Games and I am now working at Digital Extremes. On the Programming side of game development, a degree in computer science is almost essential. On the art and design side, a degree is not essential at all, but that doesn't mean it won't help.

If you think you can just do a degree and walk into a job in the games industry your sorely mistaken.

On the other hand, I have a degree in Information Technology and the only thing that it has helped me with is getting through US immigration to get my work visa. Without my degree I would have never had the oppotunity.

Just thought I'd mention, uni can definately help you get a job, and I'm proof. Set your heart on it and don't give up, you get there eventually.

I think you just wanted to announce the fact you got a job Barry ;)

Congrats on the job!

yeah i reckon!... come now,.. release your excitement upon the world....

btw... im next so move over!

Where did you geta job Barry?

Bullant Studios Bullet21. you must be the only person he didnt tell

Haha, OK so I'm a little excited.

[:D]

Bullant, so you are Victorian. YEAHHH

hey John...[:D]

I'm just a programmer in the making, but that looks very professional...your art is great and the presentation is excellent...

good luck with it!

Looks cool John :)

Looks good John, only real crit I can offer would be to show more flexibility and diversity in your design - it's sad but true, but games are based fairly solely on a set number of artistic styles and executions. Yes there is a number of exceptions to this of course, but these are few and far between - companies stick with what the market expects and accepts. Eg, the "standard" space scifi look, "standard" fantasy rpg look, etc.

A lot of it is about emulating pre-defined styles and designs and making something new from it. I think if you showed this a little more in your portfolio, it would be a great deal stronger

I don't think I have ever being so nervious reading replys to a post!

Thanks for suggesting some direction JI. I re-did an architectural pic in (what I hope is) a 'standard' pen+tone technique due to fears that my folio was not covering contemporary techniques well enough.

I think I might have to reassess my folio on 'themes & techniques' level, and start looking at adding/replacing content.

hey John, I reckon it looks good but am no where near a proffessional! I just wanted to know what did you put the pdf together in, I was tryin in Illustrator but hit a brick wall when goin beyong a single page pdf. good luck, with the job! If I had any experience I'd go for it![:D]

Go for it anyways Matias ;) all the guys i knew from qantm had no previous experience - they were just damn good at what they do - they all secured positions that REQUIRED AT LEAST 2 YEARS PREVIOUS INDUSTRY EXPERIENCE ....

you just gotta be good :D

JohnN - thats a sweet folio man - but i agree with JI about being able to conform to different styles, im not in the industry yet - but have spoken to John and Steve from Krome about whats required - Malus should be able to help you out alot as well.

Bottom line is - if the art director likes what he sees,.. your in. you could be Julie bell or Boris Vallejo - but if they need someone to produce cell shaded comic book heroes, and you showed a whole bunch of perfectly coloured and lit pieces depicting perfect human form - hes more than likely going to overlook it... a bit exxagerated, but you get my drift.

I get your drift HazarD- Good to have JI's comments supported. I am going to do some pen + tone visuals soon, might even invest in a few markers!

Matias, I used InDesign for the layout of my folio. PageMaker and Xpress should work well too. You can do it in Freehand but i find it lacks felxibility for creating pdf in some situations (plus some other quirks!) so I wouldn't recommend it. For ease of use Pagemaker is probably the go, especially if you don't have experience with multi-page layout applications.

I haven't used Illustrator in any serious way for some years. A quick browse of help files should indicate if the application can do multipage PDFs. From memory you can tile several pages onto the paste board... if that is the case it should export as seperate pages in a PDF.

hey john, im not really the expert on the subject but i just thought id just say its looking very nice, keep it up :) (i know you need encouragement at this time :P )

your work is top class johnN i was looking at it again - as far as illustration goes - i can definately tell you have a graphics design background. But in all honesty i would say that a company really would benefit from having someone as skilled as you are working for them.

Well I have begun!

The Auran people don't want to see folios yet so I have time to do some (more) last minute changes. For some silly reason I checked the 'creature design' box on their application form as my focus (the other options were character and environmental.) So I would like to have a few creature designs that are as close to industry standard (quality,technique & presentation) as I can get.

Link below is to the first of my attempts. comments on what should be bumped in the folio would be good to (was thinking of replacing the B&W illustraton page first?)

http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1598

i just had a thought - you know what id like to see - i dont know whether this is relevant or what you think about this johnN but my 2 cents anyways.

I wouldnt mind seeing some good model sheets drawn up - especially if your going for the concept art position.

I good front / side / back orthagraphic for a character / vehicle - and any other areas you think need to be emphasized a bit more on your creations.

Just a thought for something to include :)

nice to see some interesting creature designs in there :D good work

you mean like the guard character design but in a 'clean line' style? That did cross my mind too, was thinking of doing it as a secondary image to go with a concept sketch. do you know any links off hand to samples of what you mean?

Folio is being updated as I finish new works- aiming to essentially replace the whole thing and have distinct sections of creatures, characters, environments and mechanical, all in same technique with a few supporting sketches and colour/emotive works for variety. Thats the plan until someone suggests something better anyway!

Hey John! good work there bro.. I kinda don't understand why a PDF??? seems kinda pointless and unessential.. as It was I had to get a plug in to even view it (not good) You should look at making it web based (3.2 mb.. too big)
Also some drawings seem repeatative.. like the two orc drawings.. Also to make the whole thing more dynamic looking you should do some drawings that follow 'line of action' in otherwords something that demostrates that you are applying what you have learnt from your life drawing.. more action poses.. this would also apply to your soldier from Troy.. a 3/4 view and additional drawings showing 'action', would really beef it out. Apart from that you have the right idea for sure..
I still think PDF is a mistake.. does anyone else feel the same about this??
anyhoo...

Current plan (as I may have mentioned or hinted at else where) is to have 2 to 3 pics of the catagories- creatures, characters, environments and mechanical. All done with pen marker with a few extra colour, photoshop & emotive samples.

I understand that 'action shots' with dynamic poses is not appropriate for concept art as they are not as clear for interpretation. That said once i have redone all intended section of my folio i plan to do a few images like that (possibly present them as promo/box art)

File is back to under 1Meg :) YES, 3Meg IS tooooo big! I initially did my illustration folio as a pdf for printing it out and adding to my physical folio and it evolved from there. The good points are that it is still good for printing out (unlike a website) and I can(and do) send it as an attachment, so there is no extra step of going to a website, and it is accessible offline to the recipient too... And alot of it is presented on my website too, along with graphics samples (I send a link if I think it is apporpriate)

As for PDF format, you will thank me in time for making you download Acrobat Reader [:p] PDFs are a fantastic, platform independent document format.

That sums up some intentions and explainations, I would be interested in other opinions on these details.

Yr 10 work experience is kinda silly, generally you kinda just sit around doing nothing. I don't think any game dev studios do work experience, they just don't have, or can't be bothered finding, the time to look after someone for a week.
Better off trying to get work experience at a strip club or something, enjoy yourself for a week :)
CYer, Blitz

gahhh!! enough with the god-damn 'thankaz'.

Blitz has it right.. You're better off aiming at a government run place.. A library, museum.. Something like that. Yeah it's boring as shit, but they'll most likely have stuff for you to do.. That means more substance in the essay detailing what you did, and that means an 'A' from your teacher.

For my work experience, I drove around with a courier.. It was the funniest shit. Every time the guy saw a female, he'd blast the horn at her. He also encouraged me to swear my head off at anyone walking along the footpath, not to mention him eating redskin lollies, and spitting red sticky horrible stuff onto the sides of competing courier vans. Yeah.. I learnt alot.

Hey cody year 10 hay, i'm in 11 and we are only doing work experiance this year. I'm going to do it at Wicked Witch. They said I could do what ever i wanted including game testing. I doubt they'll take two people but anywayz what you do is, go to the developers part of sumea and then go to their site, find out their email and send them all email until you get a response, worked fo me.

On a completly unrelated topic, enjoy year 10, i wish i did, year 11 sux ass, the only thing i'm looking forward to is work experiance and the end of year 11. Everything becomes a lot more serious.

You have little chance of getting work experience at a gamedev studio but try looking in related industries. My company usually takes 2 or 3 Year 10 students every year. We're in Brisbane though, so I can't really help you but look around. Try and set it up yourself, don't let your school handle it or you'll end up doing some stupid shit like I did when I was in year 11.

Sorcerer Bob: My work experience was pretty much the same thing. I wanted to do graphics/visual related stuff and ended up with a couple of mobile tv repairmen. Go Figure.

Some crappy work experience placement is easily the most fun. I did two placements with Graphic Design places, and they weren't that great. The boss doesn't trust you to do anything of note (due to time and trust), so I ended up making invitations to clients for some seminar they wanted to hold.

I did one at a Comic store and that was fantastic fun. The boss told me that if I was going to beat a shop lifter, at least lure them out back so that customers can't hear their screams :D The 'official' beating weapon was a wooden baseball bat with 'Weapon X' scratched in the side (I am not kidding).

Hey cody, I did work experience at a drafting firm, and whilst it's not exactly what you're after, they'll give you a spin around on autocad for a week, get you to make some plans for houses or something. I'd also try out some architectural visualisation places, you never know your luck.

id offer my adive, amusing stories but heck, i managed to bludge it :D

When I was in year 10, I did work experience at Computer Spot in the city (Sydney). They made me vacuum the floor every morning, make them coffee, fetch milk and other things, pay their parking meters, and all sorts of crappy errands. I cleaned up all the glass one day when someone hurled a brick through the front window. For msot of the day, I stood around and did nothing. I didn't even have a chair to sit on so I had to stand from 9am to 6pm, everyday. They taught me absoutely nothing.

Worst work experience EVAR.

I did my work experience at a computer store, basically I cleaned up, made people coffee, assembled / debugged some computers so it was all good...

I would recommend that you look elsewhere for work experience, since for game development you need to know stuff already, and its doubtful that you would have the necessary skills currently. I would follow Blitz's example and work somewhere fun, or at least not as highly strung and competative (in the business sense) as a game development house.

And Souri, it's called work experience because you're meant to experience how it is to work... Therefore it can't be all fun and games really!

When we get work experience people in I try to teach them as much as I can (without neglecting my work too much, that is). We pretty much keep them busy all the time. If we're particularly busy we'll give them a mini project to work on or something so that they leave feeling like they got something out of the week. I guess its just because my work experience sucked so bad.

Also, for gamedev studios, there is no chance you are going to do anything as a coder, and very little chance you will do anything as an artist.
The problems are:
They may not even have a spare machine for you to work on (they might give you some pencils and paper for drawing though!)
They aren't going to spend any time teaching you their in-house tools/engine if you're only going to be there 1 week. Even if they use external tools, the chance that you know how to use them may be slim.
They don't want to risk their project, you might screw something up (like deleting the CVS repository :P).
They don't want to deal with the legal issues. They're under NDA's for everything, you're a minor, they would have to get your parents to sign the NDA's...it's just not worth it.
Actually, a good idea for work experience, s try and find a place where you wouldn't mind doing part time work while you're still at school/tafe/uni etc. If you impress them while doing work experience often they may be willing to hire you part-time in the future.
Do experience at a computer game store or something, or, try and swing work experience at gaming magazine or something like that!
CYer, Blitz

I have sumed everything up here, great responses, love your stories too. So, i might get Work Experience at some computer place or someting like that, but If i want something fun, i will try get one a at Hallam Brothel.

*applauds*

if you get one there you'll become a legend to all highschools.

try for a multimedia place

quote:Originally posted by Daemin

And Souri, it's called work experience because you're meant to experience how it is to work... Therefore it can't be all fun and games really!

I wasn't expecting to have fun at all, but I spent most of the time just standing at one spot waiting.. Being a computer store, they had a few computers on display. There was an Amiga 3000 (pretty new at the time I think) with Deluxe Paint, and I played with it for about 10 minutes before one of the guys told me to stop because "you might break it". [:o)]

I assembled Filing Cabinets, and rode around with the delivery man, and lifted lots of heavy shit!
I learnt how to assemble filing cabinets!!!!
But more importantly I got offered an apprenticeship when I left School.. and as a consequence have qualifications in Electronics Engineering.. Don't shoot too high dude when looking for a position.. its alot higher to fall from..

good luck!!!!

You got qualifications in Electronics Engineering from assembling filing cabinets? Awesome! :)
CYer, Blitz

it is possibe to do work experiance at games companies, it's just very hard just keep trying.

It's very hard to find a place that will give you work experience, and then you'll only really experience the work part of it, not the learning...

I'd say if you're going for it, try to approach it as if you were going to work there for real, and acquaint yourself with the tools that they use and try to learn the skills that you might need beforehand... Then they'll probably think higher of you...

"CODE: Game Programmer (industry exp. only)

Come and join us at Tantalus. We offer a work environment unparalleled in Australia, complete with an office full of highly talented highly trained professionals who share your passion for making world beating games. And you don't need to have games industry experience to get a job at Tantalus."
Doh! Damn that copy&paste eh? :)

They also seem to have"lost" their generic programmer (3D/GBA) position criteria. Wether by intent or accident who knows (someone working at tantalus maybe!). They still have the generic artist positions there though.

As an aside, i set them my app/resume about 2-3 weeks ago (about 15th Feb...still 2004!) which addressed all the criteria they listed on their website for the 3D programmer position. Never got a reply from them though. Perhaps i didn't address the criteria quite well enough for their liking or something :P Or maybe it was unfortunately about 2 days before they reviewed their HR practices!
Ahh well, good to see them paying some measure of attention at least.
CYer, Blitz

One of the best site FAQ's I have found is at CodeMaster: http://www.codemasters.com/jobs/careers/index.php

Would be amazing to see more companies go to that level of detail :) But I guess FAQ's at all are a good start.

I enjoyed blizzards faq(s) - they'd gone to the trouble of not only doing a general employment/company faq but three that cover different job information topics; they are:

General job FAQ:
Covers things like material needed for application, their reviewing process, visa requirements etc
http://www.blizzard.com/jobopp/faq.shtml

How to get a job at blizzard - case by case:
Goes on a case by case basis by position saying what you need, what's expected and how these skills and material apply etc. Also covers a bit of company culture.
http://www.blizzard.com/jobopp/intro.shtml

Tips on creating your resume and portfolio submission:
What they like to see. How they like to see material presented, and just some general tips on presenting yourself for application.
http://www.blizzard.com/jobopp/tips-basic.shtml

I have always loved reading the Blizzard guides. They are written clearly, yet casually. The yare a fantastic example.

The Codemaster's one is very well done as well. They really went to a lot of effort to make sure that it covers pretty much everything.

I tend to find that most film based effects companies have really well done guides and FAQs as well. Although short and to the point, the Weta Digital FAQ has all the info you really need.
http://www.wetadigital.com/digital/WetaLtd_RecruitingFAQ.htm

any chance we can get a list of the emails also? im trying to find a few but cant seem to find them S:

For SA, R3 Interactive might be more inclined to set people up with work experience than RatBag. They're a smaller bunch of people that also do simulations as well as some games and related tech.

ARGH stupid perth not having any game designers.

i did work experiense at wicked witch.. great guys ^^ nice place.. if you wanna get into programming go to them for work experience. that.. and a close by Mc donalds...

Ratbag probably wouldn't take you on. They are a extremely fussy company to work for. They require a non-disclosure agreement for friends of employees who enter the building to be signed b4 you can enter. I used to work there last year, I've seen the HR practices of the place. They tend to get 1000 emails with potential candidates, they have meetings maybe every few weeks, to just get the lists down. All the artists who were going through one of the producers there, the artwork just sat on top of his desks forever while he just got a chance to read through them. They tend to discount people quickly because of this.

Best of luck with other companies.

quote:Originally posted by trdrz

Hey there, I?m from SA and as part of a work ed course at my school I have to find a work experience place. I?m thinking of asking Ratbag or R3. Do you guys think that they would accept me?(I?m 15 currently in yr10) if so could someone please give me the contact details for either company.

Thanks in advanced.

THQ I found have a long list of Resume's (so the site states) and so I think you would have to shine through and really stand out. Which means you would most likely have to have experience.. but the worst anyone can say is no so go for it guys :D. I sent a Resume and a request for Work Experience or Employment about a month ago and still no reply.

Also
quote:
please give me the contact details for either company.

Not to be rude or picky or anything but it is always best that you do this yourself. I mean if you cannot find contact details then who is going to rely on you to perform tasks like finding bugs in a game? Just an observation. If you take my advice, look for the contact details (should be clearly listed on their site) and if you are still having trouble THEN ask.
Good luck :P

Both Pandemic and Auran have full time QA staff, i know people in those possitions.

well, a good path to start on is to get some paper, some soft pencils or charchole, and spend the next 2months drawing anything and everything till you pass out... being able to draw tend to help both 2d and 3d graphics....

( eraser is not allowed while learning to draw, need to get use to roughing everything in lightly, then putting down heavyer lines to define form/ mass) and then again, standard disclaimers to following my advice, this is mearly what i think would work for me if i was in your posistion.

Well I never could draw that well. I'm not BAD at it, but i'm not exactly an artist when it comes to drawing things. I can do comics, Mechy type things and 3Dish drawings, but I can't do things like Anime art or anything along those lines. And i'm not terribly good at what I mentioned either, just OK. I can SPRITE well, I can make 3D models well (I used to have a 3D program once), but I just can't draw well.

Edit: Although, I suppose practice makes perfect...perhaps I should try drawing things?

Drawing is a skill, like any other. it can be learned.

Pantmonger

agreed pants, just keep drawing and maybe seek out advice on particular things (eg. whats the best way to go about drawing a car or whatever) from people who are more experienced then you :)

But is it NECESSARY though if you already have enough skills to be able to create 3D graphics? And my original question was if anyone knew where I should go to get 3D graphics experience.

Kritter me and u are in the same position.....kinda. I can't draw that well in 2D either but i am teching myself 3D...Slowly. I don't think you have to be Feng zhu to be a good 3D artist infact it probably ain't all that necessary, seeing as if u do 3D at a games company someone else does the concept art. Just get your self a learning edition of software and play around with it, do tutes, read books and ask for help here.

You dont need to know how to draw to be able to model in 3D, but it does make it simpler.

Pantmonger

One thing I will say, is notice that the vast majority of positions advertised are for artists. Not simply modellers [;)]

Be suprised how many people running for positions just can't draw (and I'm not talking draw really well, I'm talking enough of a skill to put pencil to paper and show a basic idea). So I'd like to give the advice to anyone going down the artist path, stop learning the technical for a while, and learn some of the actual art side to your field. I kinda wish I'd been given that advice 3 or 4 years ago myself [:)]

The guys/gals at work have to do textures, modelling and most animate as well so I think is pretty important to at least have a competant level of skill in illustration or sculpture.

I'm not saying you need to be a great artist (thats obvious Malus, you got a job[:P]) but you need a reasonable amount of knowledge of anatomy, perspective, lighting, colour theory, bla, bla and generally being decent at 2D means you have those skills to some degree.

With all the demo's you get to see working in game dev, you can almost certainly tell the ones who have some artistic skill because they (generally) blow the others away in terms of 3D skills, of course there are always exceptions.

JI: I actually wish I hand done more clay sculpting, that would have really helped my 3D along, that and life drawing.

Pants:

quote:Drawing is a skill, like any other. it can be learned.

Totally off topic but this has always intrigued me, btw guys this is just my opinion and for reference I don't think I'm at all good enough to take on the title artist, I'm just a guy who draws stuff. [:)]

I think your statement is true to a degree, especially for the level you need for being a modeller.

I will say I think the difference between being someone who can draw and an artist is a combination of the time it takes to learn the skills, the collected knowledge of your chosen craft(s) and the emotions you manage to produce from the end product.

Most people over there lifetime could, if they put in the hours, become quite competant at art, maybe even great but the vast majority would still only be mediocre.

Not everone has that spark inside, I think some people are born with an artists mind, check out the kids that can paint masterpieces by the age of 8, you can't tell me we can all learn that. [:P]

Pants is going to come upstair and beat me now I know it. hehe

http://www.learn-to-draw.com/
Thats a good place to start.
I think everyone can become highly skilled artists. I also believe that some are born with more talent then others. But that doesnt mean that you cant become as good as them, its just takes a bit more hard work and dedication.

My opinion on it is that the skills required to create great art can be learned.
The ability to be creative and original, that?s a different matter, and where that comes from is the nature vs nurture argument all over again.

If you have only the first you can become a competent working illustrator, but both combined with the addition of effort and you can be a master.

Pantmonger opinion thrown around loosely as always.

Well this discussion is all good and well, but you keep missing my first question.

Well for courses just buy the Vtac guide or go here : http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=652

The vtac guide is like $9 at the news agent and it has all the courses that all the tafes and unis offer. Just find one close to U.

I define artist as more than technique thats all.
So yes everyone can learn the techique but not everyone has a creative mind.

So can everyone be a competant illustrator, painter, sculpture etc...yes.
Can everyone become an artist...no.

hey Kritter, I'm not a 3D guy but I would suggest if you are looking at studying 3D in Adelaide that you go around to all the places that offer courses and collect info on each course offered.

I suspect that the list of places would comprise of Uni of SA, Tafe, Prides (if it is still in existance) and there might be a place called MAD Academy too (this is probably not comprehensive). I think that some of these places offer short courses too.

If you are not 100% sure of what focus you want to concerntrate on in your study (2D, 3D, animation, modelling, graphics, illustration etc) a short course may be a good idea to help with desicions later. Doing a short course will probably improve your chances of being accepted into some courses too (double bonus!!) and if you don't like the short course you do, at least you can cross that career focus off your list (tripe bonus !!!)

retort to Malus > I think everyone can become an artist, they might do really really shit art, but it is still art :)

quote:I think everyone can become an artist, they might do really really shit art, but it is still art :)

You do know thats a cop out "artists" came up with when they realised there was money in modern art lol. [:P]

1/2 a cow in a glass cube = art mmm oooookay.

oooh now you've made some enemies Malus.
Run the mimes, sidewalk performance artists and the I'm nude I'll rub myself on canvas artists are after you...ARGGGGHHHH....hehe. [:P]

Seriously I know art is subjective and personal but I believe the brilliance of someone who spends 4 years on his back painting a chapel til he goes partialy blind shouldn't be lumped in with someone who farts on a bottle and calls it "mans ode to oxygen" or am I just wrong?

Don't know about the guy farting in a bottle comparison.. but there is certainly a gaping chasm between what makes an artist and what makes a good GAME artist.

To be a good game artist you need to adapt to set styles, work within technical restraints, understand almost all things technical AND have all that other stuff (colour theory, balance, a keen eye etc).

So lets clarify, are we talking artEEEst or artist?

cheers

your mum is an artEEEst[xx(]

hmmm fart art... that way better than my shit art!

*John Makes mental note about 'fart art' public art installation concept*

At the end of the day it probably doesn't matter what 'art' is. If whatever the focus of you attention provokes thought or emotion in you - that is what counts... isn't it?

This of course would make the half-cow potentially an important object(not necessary art) as it triggers thought and self-reflection about ones reactions to the said cow and consequently other issues that are related (eg mortality -being one reason that the cow is so unpopular).

quote:Originally posted by Kritter

But is it NECESSARY though if you already have enough skills to be able to create 3D graphics? And my original question was if anyone knew where I should go to get 3D graphics experience.

It is not necessary to be a 2D Artist, but if you're not, you have to be a god! On Generals, we had 3 "artists" that had trouble drawing a stick figure! But take one look at every single effect in the game, and you can see that one of them's lack of drawing skill did not affect his bad ass effects skill! Of course, he also didn't go to an art school, but instead would spend every waking moment in front of his computer, modeling, animating, making effects... etc. (He wasn't a very good Texturer, but we let that slide :) ) His home made animations were on par with Blizzards cutscenes and he was just one guy!

So yeah, you don't need the drawing skills, but you do need SKILLZ :)

Me, well, I'll stick to my stick figures :)

quote:oooh now you've made some enemies Malus.

Im on the like side of modern art myself, so into the arena Malus, time to fight. (combat music from star trek starts up)

Pantmonger

ooh ooh I want to be spock. [:P]

quote:Originally posted by Goldenchocobo

your mum is an artEEEst[xx(]

no, YOUR MUM is an art333st!

I _so_ win.

I'm of the opinion that anyone can draw etc.. except to say that you'll always meet someone who's much much better than you.. skill is one thing yes.. but talent goes a hell of alot further.. to say that you have to be an excellent artist is misrepresentation of the bigger picture.. productivity will go alot further so high levels of talent can go to waste if you are in something less than a concept artist position (traditional stuff). So you are better off refining what talent you have into a easily applied skill set! emphasise your strengths and maybe highlight you weaknesses. Learning as much as you can about drawing, illustration and other forms of applied art can only be a good thing and contribute to your skills as a programmer, modeller or animator.. if you can only draw stick figures, learn how to use it to complement your overall skill sets... etc.. anyhow I'm sure you know what I'm getting at...
cheers

ok, I seem to always catch an interesting topic, like a month after its stopped, I think I live in a time warp. But yeah, ok I like to think I'm not to bad of an artist(2d) and drawing, I one thing I want to know is do you need 3d skills to get anywhere in games? I'm trying to learn gmax and I did a semester in 3d at Uni, (admittedly on Raydream 3d, and I doubt its at industy standard)
But it'll be a while before I can consider myself competant, so am I screwed for a while? Or what, anyone in an artist position that doesn't do much 3d, speak up! please :( I live in hope.
matias

quote:
I believe the brilliance of someone who spends 4 years on his back painting a chapel til he goes partialy blind shouldn't be lumped in with someone who farts on a bottle and calls it "mans ode to oxygen" or am I just wrong?

Mmm .... Fart Jarr ..... I can see this being a brand new hit for small kids. They could have fights with a squeezable jar that makes fart sounds and smells bad! [:o)] I want one! [:D]

Firstly, Kritter, if you want to get into the art side of game making, make learning to draw well your No.1 priority. The 2D and 3D animators/modellers I know (all of whom are working in TV, film and games) are good drawers. Even if you see yourself as a modeller rather than a concept artist, animator, etc, being able to draw is an important skill because in order to be able to model, you need to be able to visualise and transfer what you see in your mind, or what you see before you in some concept artist's 2D drawing, into a 3D model.

You are also wanting to enter an extremely competitive field where artistic skill is a big differentiator. For one thing, just to get interviewed, you have to have a folio of impressive artistic creations. If you haven't got, or haven't learned the skills to put together an extremely impressive body of work, you just won't get in the door.

Do some research on the Internet, in the phone book, and find out about some art classes offered in Adelaide. These are often run year round so you don't have to wait until next year. Also, to get into a tertiary art/graphics course you typically have to have a folio, so doing some art classes will help you to put this together. On the other hand, if you want to go straight into learning a 3D program, you can do the art classes on the side. I think there is an Adelaide Central School of Art that offers cheap classes (someone mentioned this on another forum).

Secondly, I agree that drawing is a skill that can be learned - to an extent. If you are not a "natural" you can still learn how to draw competently. BUT you will never be a great illustrator or artist. And increasingly you need to be great to get a job (even if you don't have to be great on the job!) Drawing is the same as singing. A lot of people can learn how to hold a tune, but if they don't have the range then they will never be great singers, no matter what. Let's not delude ourselves (like the deluded "singers" who try to get onto American Idol, Australian Idol, etc).

Unless you love drawing, and it is a natural gift, then I would think twice about trying to make a career out of it. On a practical level this is because there are so few jobs and so many others - who eat, sleep and breathe drawing and art - you will be competing aginst. But if you're reading this and thinking "I'll show you" then go for it: start drawing stuff TODAY, find and do those art classes, play around with a 3D program and make game art your 24 hour a day passion.

Congrats on the job :)

Hey that's great news, nice one David! I'm downloading the game now.

Your skills set is nuts [:)]

Congrats, thats excellent news David.

Good stuff, David. Any chance of letting us know who you're going to work for? [;)]

thanks for the kind comments. Don't think that it is a secret, just bullant (which reminds me, should cancel the art job aplication that i have with there sister company, IR gurus)

For the record Bullant Studios is a privately held company with no relationship with IR Gurus.

To my knowledge David Coen has not been offered a position at Bullant Studios.

Richard Lyons
Lead Artist
Bullant studios

If ur not working at Bullant, where are you working?

my confusion, though antjuice was the same as bullant... i think my habit of only going online once i'm too tired to do any more programming is getting to be a bad habit

Maybe if are you're not happy waiting for a long period of time then you should just call them.

I think most delays happen because it takes a long time for developers to organise a contract with their publisher... and before that they'd need to know if they have access to the necessary talent pool. I'm sure there's a million and one other factors involved too..

two quick points [:)]

1. most people are busy, occupied, burnt out, lazy, or tired; that mail from 1 of 20 potential candidates for a position is can wait a few minutes (and promptly forgotten) while they get that life or death email out for their CEO or publisher which is sitting just next ot it...

2. We all hate the phone. It interrupts our little world of squishing bugs or moving verts - which is exactly why you should use it.

Generally it just comes down to they can't be bothered. And then when you do ring them they get stroppy about it.
CYer, Blitz

Yes cutty, it's just plain rude when you don't get a reply. Not enough people stop and think how a simple email can greatly relieve the stress associated with trying to find a job.

Unfortunately many businesses think time and money are the only important issues and nothing else matters.

The most important thing is to be persistent. Give them a call once a week - be very polite - and stay on their case until you get a clear response.

Don't sit back and wait for a response. Rarely works.

cheers

Cheers all.

With the six week thing, yes, i probably should have contacted them earlier..thing is i *totally bombed* in the interview so i knew i wasn't going to get it..After a couple of weeks i probably should have just rung them, but some perverse thing in me wanted to see how long they would take to reply [;)]

They're not my only experiences, i'm not gonna name names with the negative experiences but i gotta say Pandemic were good, they contacted me when they said they would and gave me some feedback.

Regardless of the word Games being in the industry - it's just a business.

As we all know businesses run on profit. Interviews, phone calls, etc take time away from people who could otherwise being doing productive things in which they could be making profit.

Hiring a new person is a way to lose money. People know they will have to spare time for interviews, reading resumes, organising interviews, even discussing the people that were interviewd. Then you actually have to hire the person. Get them in to sign a contract and talk a bit more about things. Then you get them a new pc, new software, new desk, work out where to put them. Then they arrive. Someone has to take time to show them around. Make sure they can log into the network ok. Help get any missing software installed. Then the person takes time to get their pc set up to the way they want. Then there is the week or so of little to no productive time from that person as they get use to the company read up about the project they are working on etc.

I agree Marty :)

But then again another side of it - Why do people treat this industry as such a great place to work that they will sit there and wait for six weeks for a reply and then post on forums asking about it :)

In other industries people who haven't heard back in a week or two would say f'it and look somewhere else.

Maybe if people stopped and thought about it and went "Do I really even want to work for a company who takes 6 weeks to get back to me" and moved on then companies may start acting faster.

So long as there are people willing to wait around for a company then companies will make people wait :)

i think people wait because this is a pretty exclusive industry in australia it seems, the jobs are not abundant. So people have some patience in a hope that waiting it out will work.

quote:Originally posted by MoonUnit

i think people wait because this is a pretty exclusive industry in australia it seems, the jobs are not abundant. So people have some patience in a hope that waiting it out will work.

But that's the point. Why do people sit here and complain about how they haven't heard back from a company or what ever then still want to work for that company?

Yes there are relative few jobs with lots of people competing for them.

People need to stop being so desperate to get into the industry that they will wait around for 6 weeks. That they will sell their souls and work 60 to 80 hour work weeks.

One big piece of advice I have been given is "Don't hold your breath for a job in the games industry. Go out and find a job in your chosen field outside of the industry. Work on your demo, work at betting your skills through your job, and you will get work at some stage."

I just think people need to place a bit more worth in themselves about what they do and do not deserve rather than selling themselves short for the possibility of a "dream job" with a company that can't even get back to them.

quote:So long as there are people willing to wait around for a company then companies will make people wait :)

Couldn't agree with that more [:)]
and that, unfortunately, is the reality of it.

quote:Originally posted by Jacana

Hiring a new person is a way to lose money. People know they will have to spare time for interviews, reading resumes, organising interviews, even discussing the people that were interviewd. Then you actually have to hire the person...

I think you've misinterpreted me a bit...the point is they did these initial things, looked at my resume and designs, had a 45 minute phone interview (as i said, i bombed) and then couldn't or didn't just send me a one-line 'thanks, but no'.
Special case if you like because I knew i had bombed so wasn't really interested in chasing it up. I certainly didn't sit there for 6 weeks hanging on a reply..i've got plenty of other things to work on.

"People need to stop being so desperate to get into the industry that they will wait around for 6 weeks. That they will sell their souls and work 60 to 80 hour work weeks."
Frankly, that's a bit ridiculous to infer that from my posts here. I value my work and think i can make a good contribution (within reasonable limits).
This thread is about a company going through the motions, having an interview then not replying. This company was/is a very well respected company. I still think their games are great, but i've soured on their HR..

However, you're all right about the pointlessness of posting on sumea about this. I should have taken it up with the company.

quote:Frankly, that's a bit ridiculous to infer that from my posts here

cutty: those where quite general statements, not aimed at just your situation.

I completely do agree with Jacana on this; our industry needs to grow up in more ways than one. And that's going to take people to realise that a job is just a job. Work is work. Yes, you can most definitely enjoy it, but at the end of the day you're being paid to produce a product. It's a business just like any other.

As far as working 60-80 hours a week, this is not something *special* to the games industry, it happens in any industry where people aren't paid by the hour. This includes but is not limited to software, computer hardware, plumbing, accounting, teaching, etc.
Any company that is pushing to meet a deadline (software ship date, trying to beat out the competitions latest card, mortgage repayments, enf of financial year, exam period) is either going to experience crunch time, or push back the deadline, unless they are extremely lucky or have huge wads. I don't think it's wise to look at the game industry as being so much worse in that department, and other jobs being all nice and 9-5 5 days a week. Lets face it, any job where you don't crunch is obviously boring :)
CYer, Blitz

This will definitely be me going off on a tangent, so apologies there - I'll most likely add some random thoughts and string them togethor into a post :)

The point of this all, is that it's an expectation to do that overtime. It says so in black on the contract you sign exactly what it is. Quite frankly, time frames and work schedules budgetted to include 2 months of 14 hour days including Saturdays which is slotted in half a year away as an expectation is just ridiculous. Work is work, not a life replacement - don't expect me to work without any incentive or motivation. Pay me for the extra hours I work overtime, give me an hour to spend dinner at home with my partner and to get the dogs settled for the night, hell supply me food and drink.

People shrug at their thoughts of what a 60-80 hour work week is like - The reality is you're being asked to forget about your other commitments and obligations in life, to eat shit like a mcdonalds burger that's been sitting there the whole day for dinner for 2 months, to sit doing the same thing for near 14 hours straight. It's usually ok the first 3 days, but by the 4th you realise that although you're grudgingly prepared to do it, you don't have a choice. You can't say "no, tonight I'm mentally dead, and I just need to sleep."

To continue the tangent...
I would be genuinely surprised if an established company these days included overtime into their schedule, thats obviously not sane. This of course doesn't apply to start ups when you're generally part-owning the company and have a higher stake in the comapny and less money to hire staff with so you end up doing more work or your company dies :)
However, i also consider that with the constantly changing nature of the business, the constant changing of hardware, software libraries, audiences, and general unforseen issues, coupled with hard deadlines when a product must be shipped, means that almost never will a product of reasonable scale be shipped with no crunch time. Note that this definitely scales with the size of a project. One that is likely to take 6 months will be in less need of crunch time, because there is probably less that can go wrong. Crunch time is unavoidable if even a single parameter changes from previous projects, and generally you don't make the same thing twice.
I am also a big believer in company loyalty, meaning i will do whatever it takes to make sure the company i am employed by survives. It is of no use to myself, anyone else in the company, or the (australian) games industry as a whole if the company misses a milestone and can't pay everyone so they quit and the company collapses, just because people decided that crunch time was not required of them because they "have a life". I know this may sound harsh, but it is something i am, in a way, very passionate about. And like i said, this isn't unique to the games industry, but it may be more prevalent due to (most likely) trying to cram more "parameter changes" into a smaller block of time.
Final summary: Overtime should not be scheduled. Crunch time is a neccessary evil, unless you're extremely lucky, or working on a very dull project (dull in the way of changes). I do believe people should be reimbursed for their overtime, however not neccessarily by upfront cash/wages, royalty schemes can be good for this.
Of course, take what i say with a grain of salt, as i haven't worked in the industry as much as Mr. Styles, so maybe my tune will change when that happens, but i am quite sure in my gut that it will not :)
CYer, Blitz

A little ammendum to that is, that when you're young and without any attachments then you're much more likely not to care about what happens to your free time, as you'll probably spend it playing/making games anyway, and it's still damn "cool" for you to be working etc. However when you get a family and other commitments then your life has a little bit more importance to it, like a small child with a partner would mean that you should be home more often to be the good father (or mother) to it etc.

Although once they grow up they might think that your career is the coolest - I mean how many people's dads or mums are professional Game Developers?!?

good Gamasutra article on crunch time:

"Manager In A Strange Land: Crunch" by Jamie Fristrom http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20040123/fristrom_01.shtml
There are two schools of thought about crunch time--"We can't be competitive if we don't crunch" and "Studies have shown that programmers are at their most effective when they only work n hours a day." Jamie Fristrom explains why both camps are right, and details his experiences in using it sparringly.

Interesting thing about that article is they state that developers are most efficient doing 10 hours work/day. I wonder how many studios have a standard 9am-8pm working day :)
CYer, Blitz

Yeah it does happen.
Just have to prove to the company you are worth it.

Im currently in the process of getting a US working Visa- the company has got a lawyer to work on it. Im sitting here waiting like you- waiting for immigration to let me in the gate in my case.

So if they want you they will do what they can to get you there.

Wow the US! Good luck inglis :)

Generally for a role interstate or overseas, would you say that the "normal" procedure of email/post applications is sufficient, or would you need some other means of communication with the employer (eg a friend who works there, etc)?

Yep, proving to the employer that I am worth it is definitely on my agenda. I'm sure that with some careful planning I could put together an interstate-worthy folio [:)]

jocobt - You might be waiting a while for Ratbag to call back, I know from expereince. Tho I didn't get the job this time because I still haven't finished uni. Oh well, not all is lost, now I have the opportunity to start a game dev house of my very own, a risky endevour none-the-less.

I have 2 friend that moved to Melbourne a few years ago to work in the games industry. They both had professional graphics/illustration experience but neither had any experience with games developement, 3D stuff etc. So it does happen :)

Expect to go over for interviews though. I'm not sure if interstate developers hire people 'sight unseen' if they can help it.

Ok, a few myths being thrown around here, hope this helps

My first industry job had me relocating interstate; moved around a bit for my education to begin with so it wasn't a huge shock really.

The only "common" time relocation costs are offset by your future employer are under very uncommon circumstances - eg, you're shit hot, they're desperate, you've got a lot of bargaining power, and they've got the cash to throw away.

You'll find more often than not you'll be able to sort something out though either way. I know a few companies that I'm familiar with that don't care about seeing people before they hire - they have the skills, they get along fine over the phone and through other correspondance, and they fit the company mold from everything they can see then that's all they need. Common thing is for a 3 month "trial" period, so if they stuff up in that time, then they're under no obligation to keep them around -- out the door they go.

And don't forget, it's the same thing with importing people too.

Daemin: yes, I know that from experience as well. While I can be relatively patient, and I am remaining confident, I guess you still have to weigh up the possibilites, anything could happen, right? Yep, even from an industry "outsider" viewpoint it seems that creating a startup is a difficult endevour, even for industry veterans.

JohnN: There is a slim chance I could get some multimedia work in the meantime, but having spent around 12 months working almost purely on game art, it's a daunting idea to have to go back and recreate a folio for a different field... My point is that I virtually cannot go back and work on my folio to enter another field, even it helps as leverage to getting a job in this industry. I know you weren't recommending this, but I'm just throwing around ideas.

Joel: very insightful, thanks. Being shit hot would be quite nice... and a 3 month trial period would be quite nice as well.

[:)]

Thanks, this is helping to map out possibilities, as well as giving me another reason to keep working on that folio, while I wait.... damned telephone [;)]

Hey Daemin, did you actually get an interview with them or not? When you thinking of starting up your own company?

I have a rather longish history with Ratbag, originally I had an interview years ago, but I was crap then (I admit that), since then I have had another two interviews, the last one being last year, which got me into an "informal chat" which was a second round interview. I also had a bit of a chat with them at the Big Party night at the AGDC, and I was told that if I was not at Uni (still got 1/2 a year to go) that I would have gotten the job.

Currently with regards to my own company, myself and a couple of friends are tinkering with a prototype of a game and are throwing ideas around. Right now I'm trying to arrange tickets to the GDC in hopes of maybe showing the game off a bit, or geting contacts.

Good to hear that it's possible to secure a contract without having to fly around oz doing interviews.

Jacobt, if you can get the multimedia work in Adelaide do it. Nothing beats professional experience on the resume.

hey ive been thinking about starting a game dev studio(im in adelaide) too... Also applyed ofr the job at ratbag and havent heard anything, thojacobt you put my work to shame ;)

ok i actually started a thread, feel free to post questions you may want in there too :D

http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1357

John, yeah if I can't get work in Adelaide in games then I'll definitely try for some multimedia work instead. For that I will have to do some portfolio changes though... Not sure about job availability too, I have a few graphic designer friends who find the industry here to be very quiet (and their work is of high standard imo). The most successful guys I know have either started their own company's or are doing freelance work.

It's good to see some ambitious guys here in Adelaide. I would love the scene here to be able to compete with the likes of Melbourne and Brisbane! Go boys [:D]

And Gibbz, I first applied at Ratbag about 10 weeks from finishing the diploma, and didn't hear back from them. Use your time wisely and I'm sure they'll need you at some point.

I've found Adelaide a bit sleepy as far as design work is concerned too. I've also found that quality of work is often not the deciding factor of sucessful businessses and freelancers! being able to run the business and find the work are maybe more important skill.

ratbagratbagratbag.. are there actually any other games developers in Adelaide?

Yeah there are a few other developers in SA I think, one is [URL]http://www.r3interactive.com/[/URL] and I also know of a startup who aren't ready to announce anything yet. I think there might be some more smaller developers as well, but I don't know who they are or where to find them...

If we had the same government grant opputunities that the Melbournites have and some more game art focused education we would be a lot better off.

10 weeks, whew thats a long time not to hear anything, do they give feedback, as i find noones seems to give feed back, you usually get a generic, your not right for us at this time.
Tho i do have a contact at ratbag now which should help a little ;D

woa hold your horses there mate [:)] No work for me just yet.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... use forums to gain feedback on your work. Make a thread in the exhibition forum and I'm sure people will help you out. Many heads are always better than one.

I've also heard of r3 Interactive, they're heaps good and heaps relaxed guys there. Quite a lot smaller and laid back than Ratbag from what I saw and talked to them about.

I also know of one other startup - this one formed with some Ex-Ratbag people, we could be talking about the same one.?

I would assume so :)

None that I know of, unfortunately. Do a search in the forum for work experience threads, and you'll come up with the reasons why. It's worth sending a message to the developers yourself to see if they do offer it now, just in case.

I must admit getting work experience with a games company would be hard.

Think of it this way. They could be making a secret game/project and you help them a bit. But once the experience is over you know about the secret game/project (Which could cause Chaos) and you helped them on it for few weeks but then the company is not sure if it is possible to include you in the credits due to the amount of work you did (Although i would presume they would include you!).

Thats just my thoughts of why it might be hard, but eh? Prove me wrong [:)].

Also you must remember that work experience is commonly perceived of as an activity you do without pay to get experience.

In Australia it is illegal to have someone do work for no money unless you are a non profit community organization. This cuts into the amount of work experience jobs out there, for obvious reasons.

Pantmonger

*Looks around* Shhhhhhhhh.
There is however, no specified minimum amount that needs to be paid for work experience afaik. When i was in school there seemed to be a standard amount of $5/day which is obviously nowhere near minimum wage or anything :) Money is not the problem with placing work experience.
Time is the problem. Generally companies just don't have the manpower (time) to spare to have someone in their offices asking questions etc. and preventing other employees from getting their work done answering said questions etc. Having someone doing work experience for a week will likely cost the company a weeks worth of work from one person...particularly if they are not very experienced.
CYer, Blitz

Most companies don't have spare work stations lying around with over $10,000 plus worth of software and hardware for people to jump on and use; so in this situation the alternative would be to assign you to someone, and you look over their shoulder, maybe now and then do something, but more likely be their coffee boy. Umm... coffee boy... I like the sound of that, interested in coming to Brisbane for a little while, I could do with some more coffee now and then *grins*

I dont care about the money i just want to find out what goes on behind the scenes first hand. JI trust me mate if i lived in Brisbane i would love to be your coffee boy but unforunately i live in Melbourne. If you ever move down here then please keep me in mind if you still need a coffee boy.

Yay, it looks like i did the immpossible. After sending a letter to every games developer in Melbourne i have confirmed a spot with Wicked Witch Software in Boronia. Does anyone here work there?

wow remember to tell us all about it, our school was going to do work experience but then some law changed or something or other and were not doing it anymore, that would be awesome

Great job bullet - I look forward to hearing about your experiance. It's a fairly rare occurance, so I'm very interested in how it goes [:)]

Well its in June so there is a while yet, but when i do do it i will let u all know how it goes, I'll be braggin about it for weeks. It's gonna kick arse, I hope i learn a lot from the people there.

it's spelled experience :)
And good luck with your woek EXPERIENCE at WW. I'm sure they'll squeeze their $5 a day out of you :)
CYer, Blitz

quote:woek

It's spelt "Irony" [^]

Pantmonger

I remember the people at r3 Interactive talking about having Work Experience kids there, only that the kids were like: "now teach me to use 3ds max and all that", just keep in mind that Work Experience will be work, rather than learning, although you'll be learning how it is to work...

BTW for the record I kinda stuffed up my stint of work experience in Year 10.

quote:Originally posted by bullet21

Does anyone here work there?

I've worked with those guy's in the past at other companies, great guy's to work with... expect a lot of laughs :)

Pants/Blitz:

Blitz also hammered the grammar. lol [:P]

quote:"it's spelled experience"

Oh geez, i feel crushed now :(
Haha, i just didn't want the poor guy typing experience wrong on any application letters (experiance is fairly obviously a spelling error) and you guys complain about typos (e is next to r) and not starting sentences with capital letters !!! hehe :)
CYer, Blitz

well i went to wicked witch to get some forms signed for my work experiance, and i officially cannot wait to till june. This is whne my work experiance is. It is a small but cosy studio. They have arcade machines everywhere. I only met Daniel Visser and one programer (whose name i didn't catch) but dan seems like a very cool and funny guy. I will be doing game testing and also art.

Dear lord,

Please make the world spin faster and then slow it down heaps from June 14th til the 19th.

Amen

Hope you like 70's disco music ;) hahahaha

well bullet, you are one lucky son-of-a-...

good luck i bet you'll have a ball![:D]

Red 5 do you know daniel

I used to work with him many moons ago, great guy, you'll have a ball :)

Good Luck to ya Bullet. If only there were some developers on the Gold Coast, and I didn't have Rugby League. Suppose I could ask some Brisbane ones, knowing my luck though they would say yes and I would have to go away somewhere. I want to be a modeller and my drawing skills suck. I guess i'll have to be a programmer [:p] or I could just read lots "How to Draw" books.

I can't draw for crap, but still that don't mean you can't model. Most the developers turned me down. I sent an email to every developer and wicked witch were the only ones to even bother replying. They also get back to me almost instantly.

Thats a good of them to reply quickly. Hope you have fun, oh and I suppose with modelling as long as you know what you want it to look like you can edit it to that. Why computers are beter than paper for me.

I have work experince too this year, do you think there are still positions there Bullet, because I would really love to work in some Game Development Company.

I dont know just try email them. They are a small studio though. But good luck to ya!

It start this monday, man i'm excited!

tell you all how it goes, day by day.

Well first day, i was a bit late, 1 hour to be precise.Stupid god forsaken public transport. But anyway when i did get there it was nothing but fun. I went in and the first hing they did was set up a PC for me. Then after that i just went on doing what they told me to.

First i just bummed around in max 5 for a while. Then they actually let me create some content for a mobile phone game they are making. I never knew pixel pushing could be so much fun. Anyway, that was about it and there were 4 other kids doin work experiance there as well.

Tommorrow is another day :D

Keep us posted with your experiences Bullet21! [:D]

Yesterday was just a buming around day for me, daniel forgot one of the passwords to the machine and i just played games over the network with the other guys working there most the time. I won Quake 3 once then i got arses raped in generals.

quote:6 months of waiting

you waiting 6 months from a response from coles?????...seems rather odd.

how about you take a walk and face to face ask if they are looking for people?

quote:Originally posted by inglis

quote:6 months of waiting

you waiting 6 months from a response from coles?????...seems rather odd.

how about you take a walk and face to face ask if they are looking for people?

I've talked to the bastard faces (I had to say that [;)]) several times but i never get a response.

quote:Originally posted by Marty

What do the bastards say when you speak face to face? "We will be in touch" or..... etc. ??

Marty

Basically or their like "Give us your Resume" and im like "I gave it too you several months ago damnit!"

Oh and Coles i physically approached, Woolworths i tried the website.

Mate you should have done the same as George Costanza would do... just turn up at Coles and begin work ;)

Seriously, don't ever give up even though you're frustrated, if you're dedicated and present yourself well you'll eventually get one.

quote:Originally posted by Red 5

Mate you should have done the same as George Costanza would do... just turn up at Coles and begin work ;)

Seriously, don't ever give up even though you're frustrated, if you're dedicated and present yourself well you'll eventually get one.

Did you just get that off Seinfeld a few minutes ago?

To tell the truth the main reason i need a job is because i desperately want to replace my computer.

But anyhow, i think i'll try shoving my resume up Woolworths ass [;)]

No I just remembered that episode... what a coincidence :)

its allready been said i think but what i did to get my job was to just walk around the shopping strip and walk into shops and ask them if they need any help and if they are willing to take you on. Now im a janitor (well basicly, im the part time guy who cleans) at my local chemist :P

I have worked for 'those bastards' for the last 3 1/2 years (er the Coles bastards). I have five shifts left and I am finally the fuck out of there. I can tell you know that you are not missing out on anything by not getting a job working for a mass-market retail shop. You get treated like shit. By management and customers.

If you are really interested in getting a job there though, do the following.

1. Wait until school goes back. All retail has enough staff during the holidays as every 15 year old is after a job. All those 15 year olds leave once school starts again as they can't handle it. Try then.
2. Make sure you can work Friday nights, and weekends. They will pretty much give a job straight away if you right that in big bold bloody letters. Too many people refuse to work those nights so they can go out and get wasted. Leaving yourself open will kill your social life, but line your pocket.
3. Give them a physical resume (no useless online crap) every week. They will probably give you a job either because you are persistant, or they just don't want any more resumes from you. Trust me, this one works :D

Anyway. It beats my experience with Games Wizard. My friend had a job there and said that they were after some casuals. I handed in my $17 resume printed on photo paper in colour. She looked at me and asked "Do you know much about games?" I looked ate her blankly and replied "Yeah. My knowllege is listed on the first page" while pointing to the resume. When I walked out she ripped it up. Bitch.

Good luck hunting for a part-time job. Go for fast food though :D Deep frying Mars Bars kicks arse :D Plus you have NO responsibility :)

It sounds like you or your friend went to Caroline Chisholm High School or are going there because i remember my school (Caroline Chisholm High). Gave the year 10's a chance to work at Games Wizards.

Good advice, i'll keep hammering the bastards [;)] and besides the only days i could work were Friday, Saturday and maybe Sunday [:P].

Hopefully one day i'll manage to get off my ass and meet you Aven because you are literally a 5-10 minutes walk up the street [:)].

Tbag, - Aven, his mate and I are all 21.. Games wizard wasn't around when we were in high school..

Anyhow. Any of the big places - coles, woolies and their assosciated subsidiaries.. Treat them as a last resort.. Canvas the 'good' places to work with resumes first.. Then call them up a couple of days after you dropped them in.. Phoning afterwards is a pretty big deal as well.. If you don't chances are they'll ignore it.

Woolies, coles etc. I'd have to say your current availability is pretty dodgy. Most places will expect you to work a couple of weeknights as well as the weekend ones. Well, I know for a fact that is the case with woolies. (I work at Big W woden).

The best times to get in are just before major holidays.. Easter, christmas.. Christmas is a big one.
One thing to remember with the woolworths family, is that they no longer accept written resumes. It's over the net or else it goes the way of Aven's fancy resume :D

Anyhow, these places have a fairly high turnover, so if you're persistant, you'll get in eventually.

Boy I really need a job badly I havent worked since I was 19 I'm now 23, its just fucking sad.

Marty: Are you the same Marty from 3drealms forums?

I didn't go to Caroline Chilsom. Bob did. but I was at St Peters (now Mackillop). We met up in college at Erindale and then went to the AIE. My friend that worked there is in Dickson, so he didn't go there either. Well one out of three aint too bad :p

Actually Bob, Games Wizard did exist over in Belco when we were younger. That was before EB moved in and destroyed all the small, individual owned stores (BitStorm and all of those). Games Wizard shut down too and just recently re-opened.

Damn, there was a cool wee shop near Belconnen Westfield - was that Bitstorm? Down the steps? Fuck man, I found Castlevania:Symphony of the Night there for $35. Sold it to a mate that was gagging for it. Nice wee shop. It'd be a shame if it's closed.

Heh, BitStorm was the bomb years back. When I used to live in Goulburn/Young and come across to Canberra, it was always "Can I go to BitStorm? Can I go to BitStorm?" @:-D

Back on topic though, make sure you're known. If they forget your name, you've waited too long. Go in once a week and they'll remember you and your persistance. That's how I've done it, and it seems a fair sucess rate is associated with it. (Am a Woolies guy. Nightfiller/Grocery Assistant/general Woolies whore @:-)

I had a brief stint as a kitchen hand while studying. Oh man, are chefs universally pure bastards? Everytime I see some doco with chefs, or talk to people who work in restaurants, the chef is always a prat. They love to give everyone a hard time.

Is there any kind of work you could try out for? Tech support? Sales, customer service etc, for computers? Would seem more enjoyable than working for Coles or Wooli's..

A MySQL error for an email form? That is unbelievable. (If it's a simple act of adding to a database and it's giving an error, that would be unbelievable too. [:)] )

quote:Originally posted by Souri

I had a brief stint as a kitchen hand while studying. Oh man, are chefs universally pure bastards? Everytime I see some doco with chefs, or talk to people who work in restaurants, the chef is always a prat. They love to give everyone a hard time.

Is there any kind of work you could try out for? Tech support? Sales, customer service etc, for computers? Would seem more enjoyable than working for Coles or Wooli's..

A MySQL error for an email form? That is unbelievable. (If it's a simple act of adding to a database and it's giving an error, that would be unbelievable too. [:)] )

Sure i would love to work elsewhere i have great knowledge of PC's but i doubt that any company would beleive that from a 15 year old. I am also good at graphics with Photoshop aswell as HTML, i have even done a site re-design for the Micro Forte games studio. Its not finished yet but i wonder if they will like it and take it [:P]. Perhaps they will offer me a job as their web designer (Hey im in Canberra, one of there studios is in Canberra, but its not bloody likely to happen).

And as for that error, yes the error was a MySQL error. Kind of pathetic for an email form really, i've had no trouble with basic PHP emailers and MySQL emailers and for a professional website *cough*[;)].

Wow! I cant beleive how many people this is attracting, quite wonderful to hear everyones stories of wisdom... or terror.

heh heh basicly, part time work is pretty much boring and shitty allmost no matter where you go, but lets face it, we need the money for games :D

quote:Is there any kind of work you could try out for? Tech support? Sales, customer service etc, for computers? Would seem more enjoyable than working for Coles or Wooli's..

Places like Dick Smith ElectronicsTandy put on 15yos with good computer knowledge, especially on weekend shifts as it cheaper to hire you youngins. [:P]

Its probably the most annoying job of all though... dumbass customers insisting that the customer is always right when they are actually just dumbasses. I remember a guy swearing at me while jamming a stereo plug into an RCA socket. I showed him the stereo socket, but he just pushed the plug in until it butchered the socket and fitted. Then he grinned at me and told everyone what an idiot I was all the way to the counter. You get 5 of those guys every hour. [:P}

Customer service sucks, but whats the alternative? Making computer games for a living? [:P]

Scott.

Do they really hire 15 year olds, really?

Oh and by the way as far as i knew Sundays were time and a half, so they aint getting off too cheap [;)].

quote:Originally posted by tbag

Do they really hire 15 year olds, really?

Oh and by the way as far as i knew Sundays were time and a half, so they aint getting off too cheap [;)].

Trust me. Your Sunday rate wouldn't even come close to my normal rate :D Add on to that the fact that they were asking me to do overtime every day and they were going broke (MWAHAHAHAHA). After one 59 hour week last year the paid me $1300 (that is the same wage as two full timers and a part timer). Tax hit the crap out of me and I ended up with $700 :'(

I think it is a great idea to get some crappy service job though. It will really make you appreciate a good job when it comes along (and the customers don't :D)

Reznor, don't even get me started on customers.... The best ones are the druggos from across the road who come in. One guy was after worming tablets. The conversation went as such:

Him - "Aaahhhuhhh, buaddy. Do youu have like worming tablets?"
Me - "Yeah sure thing. They are just down in aisle 4 with the pet food and accessories."
Him - Looks really weirdly at me. "Th--They can cannn be used on peooople right?"
Me - Trying not to piss myself laughing. "I don't see why not. If not there is a chemist upstairs. Try them instead." I then walk off with a massive grin on my face.

Damn tax [;)] i wouldnt have thought you lost that much.

And as for the story, i found that rather funny [:D].

Anyhow i think im gonna try applying at Dick Smith Powerhouse in Woden(Its big, kind of new and shiny!). I could work at the Tuggeranong one, but all the staff their seem to be in their 20's and they dont seem to be exactly friendly [;)].

Maybe i should freelance as a web designer, one guy i speak too makes $50,000-$100,000 a year. But he does PHP & MySQL backends as well as good designs.

But hey i have two books on PHP and i am good with graphics [;)].

heya, sorry to dig up an old topic but does anyone know Coles, and the like hire 20y-olds, I've been out of work for three months, and seriously need to get off the dole, they're making me do stuff now, like going in from 10-11.30 in the morning and 1-4 in the afternoon. I been looking for work that would use my degree but hitting a brick wall, I've heard problems of being 'over-qualified' to work in like Coles is that true?

Yeah they hire people of any age, as long as you are willing to work the hours that kids can't (ie, late nights).

HAHA. Yeah, they hate over-qualitied people working there. I think that the Managers are afraid of a little competition ;) Make sure that you make the resume look really plain and even have a spelling mistake or two.

haha, I'll get rid of the whole 'mission staement' and all that! phew, plus it shooldn't be to hurd to put in a fuw speling mistacks!

Mistacks is spelt with a 'z'. You may want to fix that up. No one wants to hire someone else who can't even spell a simple word like miztacks :p

Good luck with it.

dammit, [:D] thanks man, I'll just have to hope they'll take me on!

Yep, I have a list of some companies that I will be approaching very soon.

This would be a good answer for Pandemic Studios (in Queensland) to answer. Their old web page on Pandemic Australia had some info for Brits making the move down under, so I'm sure they'd know a few things.. I might fire off an email to them and see if they can help you out on here, but no promises.. [:)]

Actually we haven?t had anything on our web site regarding immigration or relocation information. In fact, we will soon be launching our Australian sub site off our main web site but in the mean time here are a few links that may be helpful :)

www.ourbrisbane.com.au

www.brisbanecitylife.com.au

www.tourismqueensland.com.au

www.moveandstay.com/brisbane/guide_movinghere.asp

www.realestate.com.au

Health information for overseas visitors to Australia.

www.health.gov.au/hsdd/rcsap/visthlth/2000hlth.htm
www.health.gov.au/privatehealth/consumers/ovc.htm

Information on Residency in Australia

www.ato.gov.au/businesses/content.asp?doc=/content/12503.htm

Okay, cheers guys. Thanks for the links, Christie.

Mate if you move from the UK to Melbourne you should feel right at home... very similar weather ;-)

Good luck!

hehe, cheers Red 5 :) Yep, I guess it can get a bit wet and cold. However, at least Melbourne does actually get a summer. Unlike over in England. hehe

souri: I think you may have been thinking about our CA site - http://www.creative-assembly.com.au

it's still got stuff up on relocating to brisbane etc etc.

ah yes, that be it. [:)]

Bumping this thread back up :o)
Sausage, how have things progressed? Have you got/taken a job yet?
Spill the beans.

i live in adelaide, havent heard any of that. Tho howed the interview go, im currently applying there havent heard anythign for ages tho....

can i see some of your work?

I have a friend who is also interested in this, so this turned out to be quite a nice thread.

My suggestion would be to play games as much as posible (like you were told), but take that level of playing a little bit further. As a tester, you are meant to make sure that the game is solid. Both technically and gameplay wise. You should have the ability to try to do things that can't be done normally within the game (ie jumping out of levels). You should also be able to find faults in game, but have an idea on how it could be fixed. And that means fixing it towards the masses, not your own personal tastes :D

Here is probably a good place to start. You can always start up threads in the 'General Chat' area about the latest games and start criting them.

A resume is one of the biggest bastard of thing you could ever write. I'm doing up some now to try to get another part time job. A resume for this kind of job is a specialty deal. You should have the following:

. Cover Letter. Intro to you and a brief reason why you would be good for the job. Try to wrap up your whole resume in one page. Make it NO LONGER. These people are busy and they don't want to read an eight page essay about your cat fluffy and the lovely suprise she coughed up two years ago.
. Personal Details. Name, DOB. All the usual stuff.
. Education History. What you have studied. You can include marks and grades if you are pleased with them, but probably not overly nescecary.
. Work History. Any jobs you may have had. Even if it was working a year at McDonnalds, it will still show that you have team skills (VERY important).
. References/Refereees. A list of any people who can vouch for your abilities and character. Friends are a quick and often useless idea. They dont want to speak to your friend of 5 years as they will of caurse say that you are a good guy. Have bosses, fellow workers, and even teachers from school. They should be able to say that you are an honest hard working guy who can work well in group situations.

The Important parts for you.

. Write down the top 5 games you have played. What made them good, why you enjoyed them. But also have why they pissed you off at times, and how they could be made better.
. Write down the last 5 games you have played and repeat as above.

Try to keep it sounding professional, yet show a more 'causual' style. You will all have to work with wach other a lot. It is important that you can all get on well as you are a friendly guy. Try not to use emoticons though ;) (yeah. like that).

Try to make it stand out. If they have to read a few dozen resumes in a week, how are they going to remember yours? Print it on some nice paper. If you know some graphic design, then make up a flashy looking one in PhotoShop. Presentation is very very important. This resume is presenting you. They will have to trust what you are like by a bunch of paper. Make it good.

Lastly. SPELL CHECK IT!!!!! Read it to make sure that it sounds and flows well. Take it to a past english teacher and get him/her to read over it. The more they pick the hell out of it, the less a future employer can. They can also help you with your wording.

That is my two cents. There are people here though who actually have jobs in the gaming industry and can probably help you out a lot more with this. I would also like to know.

Good luck.

Hmmm, well I think i'm already pretty good at looking for errors in games. I'm always playing them and looking for flaws or ways to make them better, although I have no idea HOW to fix them.
And thanks for the Resume help, most of that stuff explains itself really. Emoticons in a resume, you'd be doomed from the start I think. I could probably get some good references maybe...but I don't exactly have any work history yet. Maybe it would be a good idea to get some experience first?

Also, if anyone else has anything to add, please do because I could really do with any help offered. [;)]

Perhaps the most important thing about testing games is your commitment. You will be playing the same game, the same levels, over and over for up to a year. The developer wants to know that you will be able to continue trying to find bugs in the game without bitching (or leaving :D).

Having said that, its important that you realise (and show them) that you are not just there to play games and get paid for it. When you find a problem, you have to try to reproduce it, work out exactly what you did to make it break, write up an explaination and probably even suggest what has gone wrong.

Obviously no one expects you to know the cause of every bug; but with a few weeks/months experience you should know whether the problem needs to be fixed by the artists, the animators, the level designers or the coders.

Everything else was covered neatly by Aven. =D Hope I've said at least something useful.

cheers

Hey Kritter, good to see another Adelaidean around :D

I have a mate who started as a tester a few weeks ago. Before that (and continuing now, I think) he wrote games reviews for different magazines.

Just an idea!

"No"
I don't find them very interesting really :P
CYer, Blitz

hmm, i wouldn't mind them actually. as long as the jobs posted here all remain "game related"

Two local based developers who work on strategy games are [url="http://www.sumea.com.au/sdevelopersprofile.asp?developer=52"]Infinite Interactive[/url] (Melbourne), and [url="http://www.sumea.com.au/sdevelopersprofile.asp?developer=13"]Strategic Studies Group[/url] (Sydney). Your best bet is to email them to see if they have positions for freelance testers.

you might want to glance at his profile before saying 'local' [;)]

Ah, ok.. [:)] Well, if you like strategy games then I'm sure you know the companies that are making them. Fire an email off to them. [;)]

My dislike of agencies stems from 3 main areas. The way they sometimes operate, their pointlessness and their cashing in. I?d lake to state at the start that all do not suffer from these faults and some only suffer from some of them.

The way they sometimes operate.

The fact that some spam, sending out bulk e-mail or cut and past posting in forums the same information that a simple single post or link could provide. They rarely read the guidelines of forums that they do this in. The fact that they rarely state in the e-mail / post that they are an agency collating a collection of applicants but instead give the impression that they have a job that?s just right for you and that they want you for. In short misrepresentation of themselves and annoying practices.

Their pointlessness. The fact that they add another layer that is unnecessary and therefore up the expenditure of those who are after the applicants. There are plenty of sites such as this one filled with people keen to work in the field and other job advertisement sites and lists. So the agents existence in this roll is pointless.

Their cashing in. Due to the nature of their job and the reputation they need to maintain that is gained and lost due to the quality of the applicants they sent to the employer, an agency has to be very picky about who they put forth for a job and who they don?t. What this means is that the more qualified the applicant is the more they are pushed. Yet the more qualified the applicant the less they need pushing as they have the skills to land a job without the agent, ergo the agent cashes in on those who need their services least.

Pantmonger

So long as they post regarding a position, that should be fine. The last thing you want to do is discourage someone listing an opening.

having said that, copy-paste replies == bad

cheers

I don't dislike recruiters as a rule of thumb, however, i (with a passion) hate recruiters that spam a job. Particularly leaving a message for a bunch of people who may or may not be qualified (the recruiter doesn't bother looking at the persons qualifications). And also recruiters who just collect a bunch of resumes and send them to the employer without actually doing any work sorting through the applicants themselves.

I personally don't see why the australian game industry needs to use recruiters considering it's size and the number of people who are trying to break in. This obviously only applies to lower level positions, not to more senior positions that may require specialized skills from perhaps outside the normal circle of game industry people, or management positions.

But, mainly my biggest issue is the spam, and recruiters who just don't seem to give a shit about who gets the job.

I also agree with Pantmonger, that agencies that misrepresent themselves are annoying. Agency ads should always start with "My client..." or something to make it clear that they are an agency, so that applicants can respond appropriately.
CYer, Blitz

I've personally always found that teaching is a great way to learn things, as well as reinforce what you already know, and if you're like me you might even enjoy helping other peoples learning process and imparting knowledge to them :)
I say, if you're willing to do it, and have the time, then go for it. Surely it can't *hurt* :) And you'd even get paid too!! I assume :)
Also, your tutor will know your skill level, so you shouldn't be worried about not being able to tutor the people, they would be either people starting the cert 4 that you've done, or lower...
CYer, Blitz

yeh...there is no harm in giving it a go...and my teacher wouldn't have asked me if he didn't think I could do it I suppose...

I doubt you'll get industry people posting salaries here because that's probably frowned upon, but I'll post my 2 cents worth [:)].

I'm probably the least likely person to ask about something like this, and you should pretty much disregard anything I say on this matter, but I've heard from $35-40k for an entry level programmer, and $70k for intermediate/expert..

Of course, it'll depend on a variety of things, like your skillset etc

I'm also a programmer and have worked both in the UK and Australia. In general you can expect to earn a much higher salary in the UK than in Oz, but you also have to consider that the cost of living is generally much lower in Australia and as for standard of living you can't beat it here :)
IMO of course... so depends on what you're looking for really

Note I have never worked in the games industry, only in general programming roles, but I imagine the salary situation is the same

From what i've heard, programming positions in the games industry generally pay a good 10-20% less than similar jobs in "normal business" industries.
Entry level programmer in normal business industry is generally around $50k, entry level for games dev is probably closer to $40k.
I've seen senior lead programmer roles with salaries offered at approx $70k. (I think this might have been for a job at MF sydney a while back)
CYer, Blitz

As Souri said the usual entry level salary is $35-$40k, the average is around $50-$60k for senior programmers and you should be able to score $80k+ for a lead role... anything less would be a waste of time imo.

I've seen a few Aussie developers advertise at datascope also, I don't think there's anything wrong with this... we fill overseas jobs as well, plus it's good to spread experience and techniques globaly.

I don't know what the position was for, but i would say there could very definitely be a lack of more experienced developers in australia. Most in experienced aussie developers already have jobs or go overseas to work it seems :P.
CYer, Blitz

For lead positions etc you are going to need alot more experience and unfortunately most of the really experienced local people are already working.
I still believe we should be recruiting juniors from home first then OS when you can't find what you need otherwise they can't get that all important experience.

I used to work for an Australian game developer a few years ago (no names) who at the time employed around 20-30 artists... all local people with a maximum of around 5 years industry experience. The trouble was no one had enough experience to be in a position where they were looked up to and considered a role model or mentor by anyone else (including the lead artists).
As far as I was concerned (and a few other artists working there) the company should have employed an industry veteran art director or lead artist.
They would have had to advertise the position overseas to fill the role and pay a substancially higher salary than employing a local, but I believe in the long run it would have greatly benefited the company.

Sorry to go off an a rant, but this is an interesting topic to me - Yes, we have a largely untapped talent pool, but talent can only get you so far (sorry, the reality is there's no junior lead artist positions) - we have this talent pool, but not too many business hardened veterans with the experiance to support these higher positions. A lot of people see experiance as just the amount of time you've been warming a chair, and complain about these "minimal 2 AAA titles, 4 years" postings, but experiance is more literally the accumulative amount of shit you've had to filter through and learnt to deal with.

Talent can't sort out a dispute between a senior programmer and designer over time allocation for feature creep.

Well said.

There is a good list under developers on this very site. Just look to the top right corner.

Pantmonger

My degree has an industry placement part of it (for eight months) and I'm doing mine in Melb (however, it was pre-chosen by the uni, so I didn't have a say where I was going). It is a great opportunity Stu, not only to learn how businesses function and whatnot (as well as the politics), it also looks really good on a resume as well. Helps beat that vicious cycle of "qualified, but no experience and experienced, but no qualifications". Good luck anyway!

Thanks Pants that's exactly what I was looking for.

Satyr: Yeah I'm really looking forward to the expeirence.

Stu