Chat about anything job or Work Experience related here.
Job and Work Experience
About this section
I've created a discussion section for the jobs, mainly because when you post a reply to any of the jobs advertised, it will push them up to the top of the list. Of course, this has the undesired effect of putting older jobs back up the top (the same situation applies to the 'looking for work' section)
So if you want to say anything about the job positions, or anything regarding jobs in the game industry, write them here!
I believe "w00t" is the term to use here
Went for an interview at Krome Studios today. Got a phone call a few hours later telling me I start on Monday :) I'm with the engine coding department, so I'm assuming I'll be able to get down and dirty with the console platforms they develop for (XBox, PS2, Gamecube), so that shall be interesting to say the least :)
As everyone else has already said, congratulations on your job man! Use your new found powers for good! Bury your emotions deep down, they do you credit, but they could be used to serve the err....forget it :)
Snootchie bootchies!
Any off-topic issues send to maitrek@austarmetro.com.au
quote:Originally posted by Souri
Or just rock up with no shirt at all!... they're pretty laid back there at Krome.. [;)]
Hmm... that may only work for certain genders... Not sure I'd want a job that way....
Grats on the job!! Now you can work on getting them to help sponser Sumea?!
"Yes I Code"
Shirts for AGDC 2003:
http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/ladies/5b3d/
http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/ladies/38f0/
http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/ladies/38ed/
chatted them up about sponsoring sumea? [:)]
: lachlan inglis
Showreel WIP: http://effectism.com/sample/
Out of interest what kind of example code did you supply them - what do you guys consider "reasonable" in terms of what to submit to show your ability when applying for jobs or hiring programmers for positions (game industry or otherwise) depending of course on which side of the dice you reside
Brad Beddoes
Tycom Studios
I supplied my Worms In Tanks code and an entity system I wrote for a third person shooter with example entities. The WIT code is GPL'd if you want to look at it: http://www.doomworld.com/doomarcade/downloads/amgos_wormsintanks_v0.95_… and http://www.doomworld.com/doomarcade/downloads/amgos_wormsintanks_v0.95_… for binaries and resources needed to run the game.
Ethan Watson, teh brand spankin' new Krome employee.
Games programmer career isn't as good as it seems?
http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/03/01/06/206210.shtml?tid=146
Reading Slashdot's thread on "Want to make video games" is really an eye opener. I've noticed in general (and from other Slashdot threads about the games industry), the average Slashdotter looks down upon games programming as a career, with comments such as "terrible pay, getting treated like trash, unbelievable work hours" etc.. and that there are other easier going avenues for a programmer for much better wages. What do you think? Comments from those in the industry encouraged! [:)]
I'd say other programming jobs pay more, and you only work at them in the usual business hours. Games programming can be taken as a more artistic career since the people making games tend to work odd hours, long hours, often on the same pay, but ultimately they end up with something that's fun to play and the satisfation of making it.
Game Developers are a Rare Breed.
Plus IMHO I see the people that visit, read, and reply on slashdot regularly to be up themselves, or "uppidy".
It has been said for a long time (for as long as games have been being made?) that you don't enter into the games industry for the money or work conditions. You make games because it's what you really want to do with your life, and as someone once said "Get a job doing what you love, and you will never work a day in your life."
I think work conditions (ie. working hours) probably depend a lot on the company. Small companies are always going to be more likely to run overtime, because their very minimal cashflow doesn't allow them to hire in contractors, or license middleware etc. things that can save time but cost money.
So yeah, you wanna do it for the love, not the money :)
CYer, Blitz
I've done both business software and games, and let me say one thing, *in general* developing software for business is not that bad, but it does tend to get repetitive, and after a while unchallenging - games however, always remain challenging, especially the area that i work in, physics simulation - so challenging that i have to study mathematics at uni part time just to keep up grrr [xx(]
Overall games programming is really pretty awesome, i'd say the only downside is the unpaid overtime, and there is typically a LOT of this near the end of a project - this may change in the future, but generally, yes, you do work longer hours, and you do MORE work than you would in those hours than you do in a normal 9-5 job i think, its pretty tough!
It think its crap about game programmer salaries not being competitive, i think they are getting quite good, and in the future, will actually be higher than standard industry salaries. Games programmers are in fact, specialist programmers that have quite rare skill sets, and long-term as the industry grows the salary should reflect this.
Glenn "Gaffer" Fiedler | Senior Programmer | Irrational Games
I'll come out by saying I'd work in the games industry for two lumps of pig shit a week, but then, I don't think anyone would hire me right now anyway. To me, the money in the games industry stopped being a big thing when I was about 14 and I got over the desire to be a millionaire. I love games, and I'd love to be involved in making a game that I'm interested in, and I don't love money anywhere near as much as I do the previous two items.
But, I also realise that as a programmer, I could probably make more money for less hours of work doing applications/general software programming, but that's no where near as exciting or motivating.
This is just my opinion and doesn't have a lot of basis in fact, but i think one of the main things that will hold game developers salaries back for quite a while is the fact that games don't make a lot of money. Until games are selling millions of units on average, rather than hundreds of thousands (or whatever is average atm) game developers simply can't be afforded to be paid a lot more...
Anyway, like i said, just my opinion and my "facts" may be waaay off :P
CYer, Blitz
Hmm. From what i've read - the games market has grown exponentially over the last few years... and is far more significant than your impression. There has been alot of comparisons with Hollywood in terms of net profit and worth - and reports that in US, 2001, video games had grossed more than cinema.
This is just from the sources that I have come upon, but:
- Datamonitor estimates that the online gaming market will grow from US$670m in 2002 to reach US$2.9bn in 2005
- "According to the industry's own figures, together the US and UK video games markets were worth around ?5bn in 2001." (http://film.guardian.co.uk/features/featurepages/0,4120,862691,00.html - which btw is an interesting article on film/game tie-ins)
It would be interesting to see what the local figures are (in Australia)
This is true BUT. There are only several big production studio's that release all the hollywood movies (with rare exceptions).
The majority of people that work on a film, don't make a lot of money.
There are a lot less films than games that come out each year.
Movies have much much much bigger budgets compared to games.
Anyway, as the game industry grows, it doesn't seem so much that game studios are getting a lot larger, but rather there is a lot more studio's. So i think as the industry continues to grow, the personell base will grow comparitively, and therefore there is still onyl about the same amount of money to share around.
Like movies (from what i've been told by people working in the flim industry) actual profit is low. Games make a lot of money, but a lot of money has been put into the game to produce them in the first place.
Basically games need to increase their profit margins, and it's not the growth of the industry that will do this, it will rely on other factors which may or may not happen.
Of course this is still really just my opinion on things as i see them, and i may have things totally wrong. CYer, Blitz
Yeah that's a good point, the funds may well be more distributed across the game industry. Although the film industry have a similar market model, with publishers and such - but it may well be true that the big dollars in the game industry doesn't actually flow down as generously to the development houses...
I think with any young industry alot of money is spent sorting out the heirarchy (ie, who makes good games and who is pants) and setting up the resource base, and over time it will sort itself out and most of the setting up costs associated with a budding industry will settle down to a minimum and there will be better profit margins for game developers.
However, I certainly wouldn't expect to make alot on games, alot of it is swallowed up by publishers and marketing and distribution. If all you want is money, work you way up those ladders instead, or become a bank manager :) If you want to actually make games, then accept that it's a bit of a labour of love!
Depends who you are and where you stand in the successful game. As a developer - enough to cover expenses and wages and bit in the pocket to spend on the next game. As something like a publisher/marketer, probably alot due to the little overhead required from your end.
Snootchie bootchies!
Any off-topic issues send to maitrek@austarmetro.com.au
Very short two cents -> kind of meant as a bit of a poke at a couple of people.
*I don't see the point in thinking about the cash myself*
Snootchie bootchies!
Any off-topic issues send to maitrek@austarmetro.com.au
Yeah, royalties are often passed on to employees in part. =) Generally speaking, though, you'd have to be working on a VERY successful game with a VERY generous employer and publisher to have a prayer of seeing anything like a year's salary as a bonus. Even above average sales can often leave staff (as opposed to the development company they work for) below a point where royalties can be passed down to them, though. And some companies simply don't have a royalty scheme at all.
- Grif
I would expect royalties to flow through to the employees of a gmae company, since they're the one's putting in 40 hours of overtime a week sometimes to get the game done, if there was no possibility for royalties then the salary would have to be pretty damn high!
Maitrek: And generally when you make games you don't think about the cash, although if its your career then you have to put some though into it otherwise you'll end up with the bum end of the deal.
To me, there is no *bum end of the deal* if you are working in the games industry.
Snootchie bootchies!
Any off-topic issues send to maitrek@austarmetro.com.au
I'd rather be a game designer, mainly because the game designer gets into all the nitty gritty stuff like managing the voice actors, designing gameplay mechanics, establishing themes, and generally seeing the whole project through from the very beginnings to the final product.
I'm actually aiming for a career as a game designer.
Feeling both great and somewhat conceited ([:D]),
- Sertan
Vivian: You go too far, Marlowe.
Marlowe: Those are some harsh words to say to a man, especially when he's walking out of your bedroom.
"...This is not true of all
"...This is not true of all companies however, and many game studios provide excellent working environments and conditions.[citation needed]"
Came across that little gem here. Couldn't stop laughing...I love it!! :D
Did you apply for a games job recently?
The jobs section on Sumea has been viewed thousands of times, and from the comments I've received, there are a fair few people who find it a good resource. Anyway, my question is - how many of you have gained an interview from a game developer in Australia in the last 5 months or so? Did you get the position? Were there things you wish you had prepared for that you didn't expect, or any other advice for your fellow job seekers? and did you get the job? [:)] There's been quite a number of positions that have been opened in the last few months, especially for artistic/content building jobs, and I wonder if there is enough talent filling those positions, or vice versa..
I hit Irrational mid-last year (sounds weird saying that...) for their Junior Artist position. I met up with a slice of the crew there, had an informal interview with Sylvia Chong, and went pretty well from my view. Unfortunately after a very long wait, I was turned down. I know it was my portfolio that was (and still is) weak and what let me down. Plenty of knowledge, but not enough work to back it up. Just wish I was told this earlier in the piece...
On the lighter side though, an online mate scored the position and he starts pretty shortly, so at least I'll have someone on the inside @;-)
I made plenty of other applications during the year too, with my only successful one being at Woolworths. As a nightfiller. *laughs*
Chris Bowden
http://brain.gamekey.com/
I have applied for nothing. I'm a programmer so I think there aren't so many positions available (believe it or not)....I could be wrong. However it seems to me nowadays that there aren't as many coders on projects as there are artists.
The reason I haven't applied is 'cause I'm still a bit of a baby coder, and I still have yet to finish as single one of my own self-imposed projects (hopefully this'll change in a year or so) and until I display any coding maturity I don't think there's any reason I should force myself into the workplace.
That and I haven't finished my studies and I want to finish them first.
I've applied all over the place, but I've only ever gotten interviews for a job at Ratbag, although I had a nice chat with the guys from r3 - both of whom are in Adelaide. I suppose that companies from interstate are not as eager to interview (or even reply to) applications not from their state.
Oh well, we'll see how everything goes.
I have quite a nice collection of rejection letters. Had two game job interviews over the last year and currently waiting for 2 companies that have nibbled a little bit but and are in 'perhaps in the next few months we will think about talking to you'
looks like i'm going to be stuck doing contract work for the next forever, but if things don't look up soon i'm disapearing to work with some friends in singapore that i have been doing work for...
oh the fun, 'i love my work'
Just checking, but are people hitting QA departments as well? Essentially the bestplace to get in the door, provided you can stand playing the same buggy game over and over and over again. @:-)
Chris Bowden
http://brain.gamekey.com/
I'd recommend against trying to get in the QA route - applying for a QA job, is in my experience, a great way, to get a QA job - i've rarely seen people advance (within the same company) from QA to another role
maybe its more like this at other companies, but at irrational QA is QA from what i've seen
Glenn "Gaffer" Fiedler | Senior Programmer | Irrational Games
Ummm lets see, Irrational, krome, mircoforte, Auran, blue tongue, bullant and lastgun. A few "nibbles" but no interviews yet.I just want to make games! So i'm not discouraged yet, I shall just keep at it improving my skills and hassling development companies untill they either give me a job or take out a restraining order ;)
I have had an interview with MF in Sydney, in late May and have been asked a number of times to send more work. Talked to them at the AGDC and they said that they will be hire juniors some time soon and ask for my latest work.
But just last week I had a phone call from infogrames asking to do an animation test, to see if they wish to have an interview with me. Waiting on word from them now.
Well I've applied to all the usual places, got some great contacts, but I've only had 1 phone based interview - but that interview was VERY positive, and looks like they're shipping me a few states away to meet 'em. Apparently the next meeting we'll be talking about money and relocation, so I think I've got this one in the bag :)
Well, I've contacted a few, and sposed to send a demo reel, but then I've been side tracked freelancing on commercial projects from international companies already. So I will get around to it eventually.
Platforms: GBA, GC, PS2 ... PPC
Composer/SFX
http://www.groovyaudio.com
Mmm, seems Irrational appear to have a habit of that. Get told to wait for an interview only to be told much time after it's filled. Ahh well.
Chris Bowden
http://brain.gamekey.com/
i did some concept art for a company when i was Hong Kong half way through 2002 called ENLIGHT.
They contacted me about a month ago and are currently looking for someone to do sound?
www.enlight.com/
the pay is o.k Hong Kong is very expensive to live in.
Don't mean to be harsh but the thought of looking after a year 10 work experience guy while you have massive deadlines looming isn't going to appeal to many if any developers, maybe you should get invovled in a mod and download some tutorials.
When you've finished school you'll be alot better at 3D and have a good grounding in the software used.
Then apply for jobs not just experience. Your young and you should use this time to your advantage.
A mod is a term used for a modification of a game using the shipped engine but changing elements, be it art or code, normally art mainly I think. Another form of mod is a "TC" or "total conversion" which totally changes the game and sometimes alot of the code.
Alot of people join together to create Mods and its a good way to learn skills, meet like minded people and get a feel for working in a structured team environment with nasty things such as deadlines.
Look for mod teams in places like polycount, cgatlk, planetquake etc, theres a thread in sumea I think, havent looked at it. Alot of them are always looking for members, they also range from very talented professionals to people just starting off like you.
I wish I had known about them when I was at school.
Good luck Enigma, hope it helps.
If you're serious about entering the games industry, send a resume and a cover letter to every place you want to work for. If you're going along to an industry event like the AGDC, take copies to give out when you visit the booth of a company you'd like to work for. Have a chat ... they're surprisingly approachable ;). There's nothing lost and nothing gained even by sending an enquiry email to the company of your choice (although they might get a bit narky if you ring them up out of the blue and talk their ear off for half an hour ... try emailing or writing first).
You'd think that companies would just toss these in the bin, but in most cases it's very much the opposite. Hiring a new person is a massive pain in the ass - paying for advertising, interviewing tons of people, etc etc - if they can possibly avoid going through all that, they will. And a good way for them to avoid it is by going through the resumes they have on file to see if anyone might be qualified for the job first.
Keep an eye out for local beta testings ... sure, it's the bottom of the pecking order, but you will make yourself known.
Thats good advice Tripitaka but I get the opinion from Enigmas posts that he isn't up to a level that would make him employable yet (Sorry If you are Enigma, just the way I read your post).
If that is true his time would be much better spent researching current technologies, the industry, how it works, what skills you need and getting involved in something like a mod to cut his teeth on.
He has a good 2 years before he needs to start fretting about getting actual work, get the skills, the industry knowledge, some contacts if you can, companies may not have work experience positions but like Tripitaka said they are approachable and an email or two with valid mature questions may just start off a professional friendship that will help you in the future.
Then when you think you have progressed to a worthy level do what Tripitaka said, sell your self, I like to call it "saturation pimping". :P
Yeh, I get what your saying... Where would I find a Mod group??? And no, I'm not very experienced at all. All my knowledge about this is based on books I've been reading, and a computers course I take at school.
Whats the best language to learn? I'm currently learning C++, and I was thinking I should learn Python after this, but I dunno...
Thanks for all your help, really appreciate it! [:D]
lotsa mods here
http://www.moddb.com/
A warning though.. 9 out of 10 mods are a waste of time to work on. Most of them are fanboy counterstrike mods that never get past modelling "realistic weapons!!", let alone any in depth code work :P.
If you'd like to work on a mod, I can point you in the direction of a couple that some of my friends are working on, they'd be happy to have an active coder of any skill on board.
YAY!
Just a pointless post cause me is happy [:D]
At the start of this month i did a 1 week work experience and just now i got a call from the project manager asking to come back for a 3 day period to do a helicopter model [8D]
$100 a day.
admittedly they probably came to me cause i am cheaper than getting a proper artist but hey its good exp and i get $300 towards my cert IV course at AIE
It is infact ants who are the true rulers of this world!!!
Salary for Australian game developers?
Just curious... say 2-4 years of experience(NA + UK) in the games industry - shipped a few Xbox/PS2/Cube games.
50K? 70K? 100K?
Erg, well entry level programming is I would think 30-40 or so. Well that's what I would settle for initially. If you take a "senior" programming position within a company I think you could expect 50-70k. Maybe if you're the CTO or a double lead programmer / designer / producer or whatever you could expect 100k.
Not quite worthy for the looking for work section
I recently got a job at DJ's ... no, please hold all applauses until the end. I'm earning roughly $200 a week, so by the end of January i should have my P4 (Specs later). Then i will be glad to take on any max job people need me to attempt.
Cheers
Friends!!! That activates my hilarity unit
while im still an out of work bum!!
hence my profile :)
Although the guy at CI where i am doing work experiance did say that they are going to be hiring 2 more multimedia guys in/around march
Untill then... does anyone want to give me a job (or just some money would be nice too) [:D]
That which makes us human will inevitably destroy us.
Come and join us at Woolworths... *evil laughter*
Yeah, who am I kidding...
Chris Bowden
http://brain.gamekey.com/
Work Experience?
Hello, I'm graduating at the end of this year in multimedia. As a greenhorn, I'm trying to apply for jobs in the games industry or anything that deals with 3D. However, many companies require a min. of 2 yrs work experience! Are there any places that I can look into to gain some work experience for a start? I don't mind a low low salary as long as I get to have some work experience. Thanx! [B)]
HI!
I have been in your position a few years ago and it is NOT easy to find work experience in Australia, however, very soon (a few weeks) I will be the head of a small production company here in Queensland. As our first project we will be producing a short fill around 25 mins. The catch is that it will require very intence 3d and 2d art. At the moment I am scouting around localy to find a few good artist that either want a little experience, like your self, or want to stay with us as part of the arts department. I will be posting a detailed artical in the jobs section very soon.
How difficult has it been for people to find work. Can any industry peeps recollect their stories for hunting for their game jobs? Did they have an easy or difficult time getting their positions.
I'm hoping to do concept or texture art, but after having seen Tariqs stuff, I realise how far I've got to go. Cor Blimey, that stuff is fantastic.
Hey there guys and gals,
I've read this site from time to time, and I'm gonna try and post here occasionally with some suggestions when I have some spare time, I know its a shit when you are starting out and don't know how to get your foot in the door.
I have been involved in games for quite a while now (about 10 years). I guess that makes me something of an old timer now - although not quite up there with the founding fathers of Oz Games at Melbourne House or in the case of Brisbane the original Gee Whiz/Krome guys...all props to them - the Krome guys are going great guns! 8)
How I got started...
I started doing a game with two or three other friends on the Amiga, while working another job. We did one shareware shooter which was on a UK coverdisc, a strategy game for Manaccom here in Brisbane which got published and several demos which we tried and failed to get deals on (I have the rejection letters and returned discs from every major UK publisher of the day to prove it). All of these were done over 3 or 4 years, but by the end I had built up a decent folio of 2d sprite art, as well as a selection of comic art I had done.
With that I got what I consider my first real games job (i.e. international publisher - Activision) at Auran and worked on Dark Reign, and I now work at Pandemic here in Brisbane. Its funny though, because by the time I started DR I already had work published and been through the whole process.
I guess these days an equivalent is working on mods. Its worth a lot to show you are talented in a folio, but its also worth a lot to show that you can complete work, and have experienced working in some form of team, within a limited time frame. When hiring someone without experience, which we've done a few times in the past, the big gamble is on how professional they'll be, and how well they'll work in a team. Its fun making games, but its also a job. Some team experience helps here.
Having said that, a good quality folio will always get you a look in - we usually know whether we want an experienced or junior person when we go to hire, but great work always stands above everything else with a folio. A few important things with folios...
a) Keep them simple - just a labelled CD with a resume & cover letter is best. If you want to send printed work a simple booklet or binder is fine. Don't send crazy packaging, don't spend hours on flash menus on your CD, because they are not what game companies are looking for - they are distractions from your work. Your best work is what we are looking for...
b) Tell us what the work on your disc is, and what you contributed to it. When I am looking through your work, think of me as an idiot. I want to know what sort of work you've done, be able to easily find it on a CD and if you have worked on anything collaborative - mention exactly which bits you did! We sure have no way of knowing by looking at a screenshot of a game or mod or demo or college project you did something on.
c) Its said often, but only put your best work on there, and only stuff that really fits with what you want to do in games. Put in your imaginative concept work, your textures, your models, animations, mod screenshots. If you have done flash/web work, put your best stuff in, but don't overdo it - you shouldn't need to drop twelve example web sites in to your folio. If you pick your best work, and you only have, say, 1 or 2 items, then maybe you need to do a bit more work before sending your folio. More good work says you are interested in your craft and having taken the time to improve it, which is an essential in this industry.
d) Showing good traditional art skills is a *big* plus. If you have the ability to draw and construct images, then there's a reasonable chance that you'll make the leap to 3D well. The opposite is often not the case. You don't need to be Da Vinci, but the more areas of traditional art you have a grasp of, the more impressive the folio. As an aside, you should try and improve other areas of your skill than just 3D - improvements in one area will definitely flow into another.
That's all for now...
Hope that helps you all somewhat.
Maybe next time we have an opening I'll see applications from some names from this board!
Later
Brad
Working in Australia
As you might tell, there's a bit of interest from people overseas wanting to work here in Australia. If any of you have the answers below, Paul from America would appreciate it. 1.) Is there a high demand for a 3d modeler (in either the games industry, or in film and video) there? 2.) How difficult is it to find a job doing 3d modeling there? 3.) Would it be difficult to get a job without being a citizen? 4.) How difficult would it be for me to become an Australian citizen?
As far as I know there is always at least a few open positions for 3D artists and other artists in the Australian game dev scene. I personally don't know how difficult it can be to get in, but I'd imagine about the same as in the States. As long as you can get a long working visa, or some other sort of visa it shouldn't be a problem, and I think you can get citizenship after you have lived here for several years. (I was very young when I got citizenship - well when parents got citizenship).
It's very beneficial if you're an American company outsourcing local talent/resources here (like the movie industry does for example) as costs are low comparitively, but if you're working here yourself, you're not going to go back to America with an impressive bank account. Once you convert your Aussie dollars to American, you'll realise that you've been working for crumbs! [;)]
*cut*
3.) Would it be difficult to get a job without being a citizen?
4.) How difficult would it be for me to become an Australian citizen?
*cut*
3.) Would depend on if he's looking to get a working visa or come over through other means. If its by working visa it would require a company to sponser him. You can get jobs here as a permanent resident very easily. Its treated the same as a citizen.
4.)I went through the hoops in Australia so I do not know what it would be like applying from outside the country. Here it was something like $2500 for the application as well as health check and background check. Once the permanent resident application was submitted you are given a bridging visa. It allows you to do -nothing-. That can take up to 6 months to be processed. If granted permanent resident visa you then are on that for two years before you can apply for citizenship. Permanent residents are treated the same as citizens in most repects.
-Jacana
"I used to think that the day would never come
I'd see delight in the shade of the morning sun
My morning sun is the drug that brings me near
To the childhood I lost, replaced by fear"
hey well done,
congratulations!
[:D]