Experience

From what I've observed over the years I'd have to say that sending a demo is the best thing you can do to get your foot in the door. I'm quite surprised how rarely people do this, so for starters it makes you stand out, plus it tells people what you can do so much more directly.

"2 years experience" or "a published title", as far as anyone knows, could mean that you just wrote a slow buggy menu system, and employers know it. They value these things much less than you might think. A demo shows what you can do here and now.

As far as degrees go, in my estimate their value is zero. I don't have one and I've been employed by 4 different studios, most of which claim that a degree is a requirement.

quote:Originally posted by pb
As far as degrees go, in my estimate their value is zero. I don't have one and I've been employed by 4 different studios, most of which claim that a degree is a requirement.

I'd say that's a good point, but it's changing more and more- how long ago was it you were first hired pb?

If a company comes across an experienced developer like you looking for work they'd be bloody crazy not to hire because you don't have a degree imho.

One of the most stupid things I've heard of was Don Burrows (very famous jazz flautist) getting fired from Sydney conservatorium when it was amalgamated with Sydney uni. He was fired due to not having a degree [:(]

I got my first job at Tantalus in 1999. I already had a self published title under my belt by then so that was the "demo" side taken care of. While all studios put forward a list of things they'd like from potential employees in their ads the actual hiring process is quite informal - they don't go through the list with you and give you scores on how well you satisify each requirement.

I'd imagine something like a university or large corporation has a policy, procedure, check list etc, probably set by decree and offering limited flexability to those doing the actual hiring. Blue Tongue (now owned by THQ) has rules about how often pay reviews can happen and how much you can increase someone's pay during a review. This can (and does) prevent management from retaining the staff they want.

pb

Hi WiffleCube,

When I started sending my resume around, it was a little bit daunting. I had no titles to my name, no education (I never did year 12 or university), and the only game related experience that I'd had was making hobby games and a work-for-free internship at a local company.

I was originally only looking for a possible job as an Assistant to a Producer, but ended up landing myself a wonderful position as an Associate Producer (which means instead of assisting someone else, I have several projects of my own that I'm responsible for).

I've come to learn that the best people for a team are not only skilled, but they have personality traits that guarantee their success. Personality traits like a strong work ethic, good communicational skills (and this includes being approachable and respectful) are some of the basic ones. Two of the most important traits that a successful candidate must have (in our company at least) is Humility (aka no ego) and Will (aka the drive to excel and succeed).

Of course, skill is important and usually, only those with talent even make it to the interview stage.

Just remember that there are always exceptions to any rule, but you have to know the context of the situation. Knowledge is going to be your best weapon. Research the company and put yourself into their shoes: Why are they hiring? Do they need someone with specific skills and enough experience for a certain project, or are they simply looking for fresh blood to scuplt into their next superstar developer?

Ask yourself what you think it is about yourself that they liked enough to get you to an interview stage? Play on those advantages without being cocky and pay attention to what they say. And of course, don't lie.

Basically, do your research and you should be fine! If not, then just keep improving until you finally get that lucky break :)

P.S. If you do get in, try to never forget how much getting a job in the industry meant and always appreciate it.

These conflicting opinions don't help with making decisions. [?]

I really do wonder if the 4 or so years I'm going to spend at Uni will be well spent... I don't want to waste my time or my parents money (they pay for the first semester) [:X] I've considered doing an apprenticeship as an electrician somehow cause as WiffleCube said, anything is preferable to business computer work and I've always liked electricity and wiring. I could spend any free time from that improving my programming or doing a decent portfolio.

I want to work and have something todo with my life... I'm just not sure where or what doing [xx(]

If you don't know what you want to do, then I wouldn't go making and rush decisions, like signing up for a 4 year course that you may just end up quitting if it's not right. Going out and getting a real job helped me to realise that I personally needed a 'career' and not just a 'job' because a career is more fulfilling to me and could offer stability and the opportunity to really grow some skills and experience.

If you still want the life of a student (no money, school work, few responsibilities other than for yourself, a social life, exams) then go for it at Uni. Just make sure you are prepared for what you're gonna be getting into and be sure that's what you'd like to do.

And at the end of the day, whatever you do, just be happy because you've made that choice.

I guess the problem is that time is rushing by rather quickly. I'm due to go to the UTS enrolment day sometime soon so if I do decide not to go I'll have to decide very soon... Time to talk to parents more and stuff maybe. Try to think of anything I could have missed.

[Sorry WiffleCube for the thread hijack!]

A little of topic but just thought I'd bring it up.

While you may dream of that games job, this may help ease the sting if you guys are unlucky enough to miss out on a games industry gig.

A friend of mine works in the private sector as a programmer, he makes somewhere between $100 - $200....an hour.

I personally don't think games work is any easier/harder or that his work is any less rewarding.

Game programmers don't always get to be creating wonderful exciting new tech everyday, half the time its as monotonous, unrewarding and thankless a job as the private sector work is, thing is, how many games programmers get that sort of cash?

Hell I love my job and can't think of anything I'd rather do more....except maybe retiring at 35 :P

I bet if games artists had this opportunity you'd see alot more text based Xbox games. lol.

Just a thought. :)

YIKES... Now that is a level of payment I *could* live with. Normally I'm not a money driven kinda person (All those millionares doing bugger all with it but earning more anyway... W T F ? Go do something cool or beneficial with it...) but for that amount of pay I'd be crazy not todo it. I'm working on a project atm as a hobby job, and I kinda like doing it that way over maybe a more businessy setting. This way I can make games I like all the time. I'm not forced to code up games I personally wouldn't play. If it all buggers up, big deal. Bit of wasted time for sure, but atleast we'll all have learnt something.

And *when* it works (Not if... when! [:P]) it'll be fantastic cause it'll be a game we as a team have had perfect control over. It's not like we were making "Madden 2K6", "Battlefield 2 : The Latest Expansion Pack Containg What (Bugs) We Forgot To Put In The Game" or something else lame like that... That to me could be as bad as NOT making games, ie. making crap ones... repeatedly.

And on a final note... Malus, how long did it take your friend to get up to that level of pay if you don't mind me asking? [:P]

Edit: Going about getting a job this way though would break my Grandpa's advice - ie. do a job you like otherwise you won't be happy with it.

quote:Going about getting a job this way though would break my Grandpa's advice - ie. do a job you like otherwise you won't be happy with it.

That's exactly why I found my career in the industry. I have this problem where if I don't want to do something, then I won't stick with it for longer than I need to. For example, I had this one job at my uncles foodmarket in the deli. The first 2 weeks were great - money and new learning. After that, I was offered several different promotions within the next two months.. and I declined them all. I didn't want to have a career doing a job that was already begining to bore me. I didn't want to work up the ranks and become a state manager or whatever.

So.. I took my money, went overseas, came back and relentlessly persued a job in game dev - no more farting around like I had been for 2 years of wanting to break in.

And.. not long after, I convinced a company to give me an internship. Four months after that and I landed my current job as an associate producer. Four months into this job and I'm still loving it, more and more each day because I discovered exactly what I wanted.

My suggestion is to figure out what you want, and to persue it relentlessly.. never ending will and a head on your shoulders will go a long way.

quote:Originally posted by Rohan
...for that amount of pay I'd be crazy not todo it. I'm working on a project atm as a hobby job, and I kinda like doing it that way over maybe a more businessy setting. This way I can make games I like all the time.

From one that's been there (not at that pay level, but I've been offered that pay level to go back to it) - you make your choice and you live with it. If my experience is anything to go by then that pay level entails:

• Regular 24/7 "on-call" support (no cinemas, no drinking, no leaving mobile phone coverage area for the period)
• Even when not on call, always expecting a phone call any time of the day or night to help with a production crisis
• Long periods overseas, away from your family/girl/boy/fish etc working 12-18hrs per day. If you think that sounds ok, then let me say:
  • *not* London, Paris, New York, but Islamabad, Bangkok, Surabaya, Bangalore, Lagos
  • not four weeks a year, but 12 weeks out of 15
  • when onsite, your only PC is a corporate laptop that you don't get admin rights to so you can't install or play games or even browse the web.
  • flying on the weekends to be there for the monday
  • last minute travel (so flying from here to singapore goes via hawaii)
• Building [url="http://www.koziarski.net/archives/2005/05/21/enterprise-development"]"enterprise applications"[/url] where the only technical challenge is getting the work done in two weeks rather than two years.
• Spending months implementing Tax laws, Accounting practice, Audit compliance procedures etc.
• Never getting any free time to make or play the games you want to

Listen to your granpa - pick something you like - or if you want the money then go into it knowing what to expect. I predict if you do go for the $$$, you will never make the games you're dreaming of.

Hmmm... Well I'm kinda the same but for as much as $200 an hour... Well, that's a hell of alot to earn. And it beats any non PC related job even if it is business work [:P] (Except for maybe electrical work but this way I don't need an aprenticeship) Even if I did games I'd still like the money to spend on my hobbies, and games programming doesn't seem to be the way if you have expensive hobbies [:P] Choices choices...

Edit:

DOH! I missed your reply mcdrewski... Hmm, I think my problem is I get too excited without thinking about stuff properly [:(] One of my uncles infact is about to go to Singapore maybe to do banking related computer work. Being the stay-at-home person I am that'd suck majorly if I had todo it.

It's an annoying problem - My hobbies will always mean more than my work ofc, but when work interupts them entirely for the sake of potentially more money... Hmm. Yes it seems like my grandpa got it right I guess. [:I]

*needs to think more...*

Mcdrewski:

quote:# Regular 24/7 "on-call" support (no cinemas, no drinking, no leaving mobile phone coverage area for the period)
# Even when not on call, always expecting a phone call any time of the day or night to help with a production crisis
# Long periods overseas, away from your family/girl/boy/fish etc working 12-18hrs per day. If you think that sounds ok, then let me say:

* *not* London, Paris, New York, but Islamabad, Bangkok, Surabaya, Bangalore, Lagos
* not four weeks a year, but 12 weeks out of 15
* when onsite, your only PC is a corporate laptop that you don't get admin rights to so you can't install or play games or even browse the web.
* flying on the weekends to be there for the monday
* last minute travel (so flying from here to singapore goes via hawaii)

Pretty sure its no to all above.

quote:# Building "enterprise applications" where the only technical challenge is getting the work done in two weeks rather than two years.
I know of alot of coders that need to get work done in 2 weeks. [:P]

quote:# Spending months implementing Tax laws, Accounting practice, Audit compliance procedures etc.
# Never getting any free time to make or play the games you want toNo my friend has a reasonably normal work life with some late nights but nothing less than a games programmer would endure on a project.

Not that I'm aware of, my friend is very fond of BF2 and probably plays more games than I do and I play a fair bit. [:P]

I'm not saying its easy, far from it, but you need to know there are options out there.
Games are great but alot of people are grossly under paid and under valued, worldwide. Having fun and doing what you love don't pay the bills. [:)]

Rohan just sounded like he needed to hear about the possible success of the alternative, granted its not the norm but given drive and skill you can succeed on the other side of the wall.

Good luck with your career within the industry though Rohan, we always need more coders to cope with our grand artistic scope. MORE, BIGGER, FASTER DAMMIT!!! [:P]

dean: he's a lucky, lucky b*stard then [:D]