Industry and Education

Some really great points Joel, I'd also add that you need to do art for yourself, not just to show off to others.
Destroying a personal challenge is a better ego boost than a thousand pats on the back.

quote:Too many times I see someone complain they can't produce good looking organic surfaces, so what do they do? Make huge metallic war machines, static objects, weapons etc, instead of simply looking at photographs, or going outside, and studying their subject matter and practising.

Could'nt agree more.

quote:Do you know the basics?

I'm getting there friend. [:)]

I think that to a large extent that this article breaks down what are the 'basic' elements, though I dont fully agree with what the writer thinks they are. "just what colour is brass under a blue light? " I dont know, If I needed it I would look it up but a mental data base of that type of information goes beyond the realm of basic in my opinion.

But other then that the article does little in the way of trying to teach, other then saying the usual, if you cant do something, don't bitch, study and practice it till you can. Mind you Im not sure there is much more you can say in a teaching vein in an article, or maybe the the article is just an observation.

Nut shell: Interesting, may get people thinking about what it is they really need to know on a basic level, but the answer is still the same, Get out there and Practice.

Pantmonger

i think it was meant more as a just a general observation, I agree that the brass issue itself isn't what I'd call basic but the understanding that the colour of an object changes based on its material and the lighting is a basic concept an artist needs to grasp.

quote:Originally posted by Malus

i think it was meant more as a just a general observation,

Thats what I figured. Dont get me wrong I wasn't bashing the piece, just I was not sure of its aim, so when I wrote comments on it I was trying to cover all possable intentions.

Pantmonger

Quite a good article - with a few thought provoking comments but I'm not a fan of the colloquial writing style. Now that I'm wearing my pendantic hat, there were about 4 spelling errors and a few grammatical slips such as not starting a new sentence with a capital letter.

While that may seem like a needlessly negative comment (it's not intended that way), it undermines the good comments that are presented in the article. I for one find it hard to take an article seriously if it feels the need to use an emoticon to convey an opinion.

I do agree with the main theme of the article. It's too easy for artists to draw what they know and stick to what they like doing. I for one am reasonably guilty for doing this, so of late I've tried to expand my topics and subject matter.

I probably would have listed the third category (mental/social) as 'theoretical' - art theory can be applied to give you those answers you seek.

As a final point - I think more games artists need to have more traditional training. This will greatly help their 3d work.

Quite a few interesting thoughts there.

I think a few of the things he talks about arn't neccessarily the basics. Things like colour theory and understanding of how light interacts with various surfaces are IMHO fairly advanced approaches to the age old problem of how to make something look cool. He's right in that a lot of people don't know these principles. So does that make them basic or advanced?? Anyone can show you a colour wheel and say these colours are complimentary, these are opposing... use them in this way, but to really understand when and how to use them takes a lot time and experience I think.

For example, it took me ages to understand the the trick to painting game textures is in the edges and highlights of surfaces. Nothing explains the consistency of a surface better than what it's specular highlight is like. It took me years to figure this out and by the end of it, I was kicking myself. I couldn't understand how I hadn't understood this fairly simple principle before.

But yeah, good food for thought...

Good article.

I've certainly seen some good examples of this. It is amazing to see what l33t artists can do with 15 different photoshop filters and a lens flare... [:P]

Thanks for the feedback everyone - it's good to see that people actually read it in the first place, let alone the positive comments. A few good points of criticism here too, and it'll all be taken into account next article.

http://www.bravevision.com/controlfreaks/maya.html

Thanks
I caught the program as well but missed the link [:(]

This competition is going to be a judge's nightmare. There are hundreds of freely available car models out there, not to mention tools to rip and convert models from existing car games.. who's going to tell which model originally came from elsewhere?

The info at the site doesn't say whether the model is to be based on a real life car or something designed from scratch. The only reason I'm bringing this up is because some people might design their own concept car while others will base their's on actual cars and then run the chance of not having it included in the game if EA can't licence that particular model... that is if they're planning on using the winner's model in the game.

I guess any competition is open to cheating considering what is freely available if you look around. They should probably have made it less open, I reckon. Perhaps require a N4S texture work.. Just leaving "Tuner car" as the requirement seems pretty open. Anyway, enough of my rambling then! [:)]

Thanks for the link. I hope that it is open for all cars, real or not. The description of tuner is way too broad and it should be more defined. I hope there are no cheaters out there, as i would be working hard to get an original entry in, good luck 2 ne else that enters. [:)]

I've emailed control freaks about the competition, asking them whether the car should be original or an existing one, and what they are looking for in regards to polycount. It says in the conditions that the entry does not have to be textured, so I'm guessing that EA won't actually be using your model, but perhaps building one similar that will work with the game.

I'll let you know what they've said when I get a reply.

From the screenshots on the NFS website, it seems all the cars are rice burners. Skylines, Celicas, Supras etc... I think the best bet would be to show them some Aussie V8 muscle.

Make them mention sumea too. [:D]

Scott.

Definately have to put a good aussie V8 muscle car in it. Im thinking a 1937 HQ monaro or a 351 gto phase 3! [:)][:)]I hope they use the original meshes we create, y would they have us make it with maya, not lightwave or max?????

Acer: Probably because you win a version of Maya, or maybe its a psuedo recruiting drive for maya artists?

I think they want people to learn Maya, therefore expanding their future userbase.

quote:Originally posted by Red 5

I think they want people to learn Maya, therefore expanding their future userbase.

All free or personal edition products are for that specific purpose only! Those are just other keywords for a "demo", and they hope that when you use a product enough you will buy the full version when you get a job.

quote:Originally posted by Acer

Definately have to put a good aussie V8 muscle car in it. Im thinking a 1937 HQ monaro or a 351 gto phase 3! [:)][:)]I hope they use the original meshes we create, y would they have us make it with maya, not lightwave or max?????

Hehe, I think u mean 1973 Monaro not 1937. The Phase 3 would be nice, ooh yeah. Just wondering exactly what type of cars they'd want, it seems most of them are current model stuff :/

Yeh sorry, 73 Monaro not 37, lol. It would be good to know what kind of cars and roughly what number of polys they expect. Did u get a reply from ur email u sent them? Oh if its a new car they want im thinking a Mustang Svt Cobra R or a new Ford FPV GT.

Acer

No reply as yet... its a bit hard to plan for the thing without those details. Seems you'll be leaning for the Fords, so I might check out a new GTS Monaro or VX GTS Commodore. :)

Yeh i am leaning towards the Fords. But it's hard to find some good blueprints or good referance pics. Can Anyone Help me with that. If you come across any good pics of australian cars, useful for a blueprint please post.

Thanks

The Ford Australia site has some of those quicktime things where you can look at the car from different angles, that might help. Otherwise you might have to scoot on down to your ford dealership and take some photos :/ The Holden website have the proper 3D models, except I can't find any way of converting them to a usable mesh to base references off. The best I can get are prespective shots of the side, which are handy but its still not as good as proper orthographic views.

My mate owns a VT SS, so that could come in handy! :)

Got a reply from Control Freaks:

Hi Ryan,

There is no poloygon limit to the car you design as it won't actually be used for a game.
A "tuner car" is just basically a modified hoted up street car.
The model has to be entirely your own work.

Good luck,

Team @ Control Freaks

When they say entirely your own work, I'm 90% sure they mean a car not based on an existing one, as my question was: "Can the car be modelled on an existing car just 'hotted up', or does the car have to be an entirely new creation?"

Actually I'm liking that even better, its always fun making new cars.

It is a pity that your design won't be used in the game in any way.

I thought our model will be included in the game [V]. The ford site was a big help, it took me a while to find the 360 view. I got good Front Back Side shots.

""A "tuner car" is just basically a modified hoted up street car.
The model has to be entirely your own work.""

The way i interperet this is that the tuner car is an allready manafactured street car, just hotted up. And that the maya model and texturing must be our own.

Im not shure if this is correct but it is just how i guess it is. I will also send an email to confirm this, and to see what aspects of the model they are judging, eg Creativity, Model design, Visual Stunningness ect...
It would be good to know before we start!

Acer

Looks to me like there's a bit of misunderstanding from your query Major Clod, anyway I personally think the safest bet would be model a real life car...something they can relate to.
I also think (apart from supplying a nicely modeled car) a cool paint job would score some major points in this comp :)

Boy Racers and Bogans, the lot of ya!

I think they wanted 2 fast 2 furious style cars, they gave an example of a supra that look like the supra from the second movie, plus they also gave a link to the car designer/Adviser of 2 fast 2 furious. so it looks to be bodykits, intercoolers and 19s for everybody. They didn't say any thing about using real life cars or concepts though so i'll probably try both.

As for the Blueprints i use http://smcars.nd4spdworld.com/forum/index.php. They don't have many aussie cars (haven't really looked) and i think you have to be a member to get access but its still good.
I have seen an Ford Falcon Au V8 and a HK Holden Manaro, there is no category for holden so you have to go to Miscellaneous.

A good place to get blueprints is at [url="http://www.onnovanbraam.com/"]Onnovanbraam.com[/url]..

Just a FYI,
Seems they're finally showing control freaks in canberra now.
Sundays at 3pm on Prime.
CYer, Blitz

Someone mentioned that they had Sumea on Control Freaks on today... didn't get to watch it myself though, but you Canberrans might still be able to catch it...

Yeah, they plugged Sumea as the site to go to if you want to get into game development in Australia and New Zealand.

it was pretty cool, the site was up on the TV screen for about a minute or thereabouts.

hmm maybe next week they can plug some of the people on sumea.... :)

They showed one of JI_Styles models. Grey Edwards from FF.
Also at the start there was a concept sketch and I think it was one either Malus or Inglis did... Sorry I didnt pay that close attention!

must have been deans.
i dont have any art up on the site. [:)]

Fair enough :)

Guess it would be Malus then.

I would suggest just a normal computer science or software engineering degree, that way if you can't get a job in the games industry (or for some crazy reason you decide you don't want to anymore) you can get a normal programming job. In terms of courses directly focusing on games programming, i'm not sure there are any in the melbourne CBD, however I know that RMIT offers particular subjects in their computer science degree related to games programming.

Melbourne CBD is REALLY limiting your choices...it's pretty much RMIT (uni/tafe) or melbourne uni.
If you actually meant melbourne in general, i think la trobe uni and monash uni both offer comp. sci degrees with some sort of specialisation in games development.
As far as specialised game dev courses, i don't believe there are any in melbourne yet.
CYer, Blitz

I thought that a few of the Melbourne Unis started something. For some reason I am thinking it might have been La Trobe and Monash (as blitz said). The GDAA site has some links to the various Unis in Melbourne - might be worth a look. Also there was a thread about schools floating around .Sumea somewhere.

Don't you mean 1999, not 1991 ?

And I don't really know anything about that project.

From what I have heard excalibur used the assets from the not so finished Harn chronicles Auran was working on, looks like there may have been a third recycling of assets if Souri's onto something with the mmorpg idea.

We are such gossipers lol.

So ladies, who wants a cucumber sandwich while we knit? [:P]

There's the annual Sumea Developer Awards ! [;)] I think awards within the games industry is a relatively new thing - the previous AGDC awards held in 2002 happens to be the first one. I don't think there are any others?

Overall awards in Games Development are not really big occasions, I mean even at the GDC in America the awards were very low key, with most people just coming up, going thanks and leaving. Plus there's not enough glitz and glamour at the awards, not like the Oscars and whatnot. I think that has something to do with the amount of female developers in the Industry, and the fact that everyone is dressed casually...

Oh well.

The fact that game development is still considered a geeky profession, as opposed to making movies, probably doesn't help the whole popularity thing :P
CYer, Blitz

We don't pull the same kind of media exposure as hollywood trash does...so there's no point in having glitz and glamour! Still, I think recognising those in the industry that excel is very important, and awards will probably start showing up more often to reflect that.

I don't imagine that being uptight and 'superficially concious' has anything to do with the value of awards anyway!

Maitrek: But I want to wear my new frock dammit! lol

Malus: If you want to wear a frock to some Game Developer Awards, wear one on sunday of the AGDC then - I dare ya to!

I hope they get something like that for WA. If not, theres always the mob, they are always looking out for potential investment opportunities. [8D]

2 day left reminder for anyone applying for this..

I suppose you could say they're not going the traditional publisher/developer relationship route and are funding their projects through their own means, sometimes self publishing and distributing.
The teams are usually very small (if not single person operations), generally having to keep the overhead as low as possible while working with little or no budget.

sum1 hoo axually finishes there game concepts and delivers there work through shareware or sum el cheapo publisha like Kmart interactive (it don't exist but u know what i mean). The indie game dev dude must also have more than one game unda his belt, of which he has sold a small to large amount.

I'd probably say anyone who is working without any publisher/distributor, just to keep it simple. Although I can see how that might get a bit screwy...
Maybe anyone who admits they are an independent game developer and has no publisher/distributor :)

I would classify an independent developer if they:

Didn't have a publisher contract to develop games
Had another full time occupation - student or working other jobs as their primary source of income
Haven't made any money from games yet
Don't have an office or a full business registration etc

But yeah, you have to take these things with a grain of salt because not all indies fit all these criteria, such as those who have published games through publishers such as GarageGames, or gone through the shareware route etc.

I dunno how you'd define them, but I was browsing through the developer list for NSW and checking out their websites. They definitely seem much smaller than places such as irrational, torus and krome. To be honest I got the impression that those places were independent (IE just a few guys with small startup capital). But I suppose you can't judge it simply by it's web presence. I was pretty surprised at the lack of development houses in NSW considering our population size? :(

Usually not having a publishing contract is considered independant...
You're not "dependant" on an external source of income (the publisher) to work on the game. Generally self-funded affairs.
CYer, Blitz

But you wouldn't call an established developer such as Ratbag (or any other?) an Independent, since they have published games with publishers, even though they may not at the moment be getting their funding from a publisher.

So really you can only be called "Independent" until you get your first publishing deal etc.

http://www.dexterity.com/articles/indie-faq.htm

I agree, it's asking for trouble.. If anyone wants to read some articles on the issue of intellectual property and games, read this..
http://www.3dactionplanet.com/features/editorials/q3dmhellchick5/
http://www.3dactionplanet.com/features/editorials/foxedmods/

and I quote..

quote:Fox has been known to contact the mod authors and demand that production cease, that the mods website be removed, that all files from the mod be placed in Fox's ownership, with all other copies destroyed, and that the real-life names and addresses of all mod team members be sent to Fox.

If you're going to invest all your energy and time on game projects, you're better off not using other companies i.p..

I actually sometimes wonder how all the Matrix mods for Max Payne haven't been shut down completely! Most of them rip music and sound straight from the movie :)

Because it's not worth the expense trying to shut these people down.
You'll probably gain $0 from shutting them down, and spend several 10's of thousands doing it.
CYer, Blitz

But like they illustrated in those articles that Souri gave links to, even though the community is not making any money from these mods, the company is loosing money because people don't have ot buy their products to see or experience some of the content.

quote:Originally posted by Blitz

Because it's not worth the expense trying to shut these people down.
You'll probably gain $0 from shutting them down, and spend several 10's of thousands doing it.
CYer, Blitz

The problem is that if they do not chase down someone doing this then it can set a legal precident (sp?) of them not protecting their intellectual property, which can then be used against them in court.

That idea deserves a
[img]http://www.members.optushome.com.au/hmmklord/wooyay.jpg[/img]

keep me informed, I'll be there for sure

Whos in charge here? Wheres my captains wages?

I'm pretty busy all this week with biz, but I'll start arranging things for something next week.

Lets get a headcount so I know how many to cater for. Post here if you're interested. Can't wait to meet everybody. [:D]

Scott.

Beer O'clock!!

Reznors shout!!

If you turn up, Scott will buy you a free beer!*

(*) Beer may or may not be real

lol, I think I need to buy him and Lava Monkey a few this time actually. [:)]

As long as there is a drink and somewhere to crash I'm there.

I'm there with bells on. Or at least a hat.

quote:Originally posted by rezn0r

Post here if you're interested.

OK.

Brain: Wear some pants too, thanks.

Long time no see GooberMan!

Yeah, I'm up for it. (And second what redwyre said)

I hereby post; agreeing with the above terms.

I fully understand that the above terms dictate that:
a) there will be beer
b) brain will be wearing pants

Hay Stoffle ,If your going to be there, Im in. (long time no see)

Pantmonger

I hope by pants, you don't mean Pantmonger. Might be comfy and all, but I ain't wearin' him.

Brain:
Nah, I think Malus is wearing him.

Count me in. When/where?

we're not sure about that yet.. got a few ideas..
but we need to know how many people and what everyone wants to do.

Redwyre: thats not nice, Pants will be wearing himself lol.

yeah,
i need to know the when, the where and the woo/yay/houpla of this event.

you can count me in, just let me know the details biatches (so long as its not at some stupid nightclub)
oh and for god sake with all this talk of guys with lack of pants someone invite some girls even if they are geek girls just so i feel safe
:)

The way I see it happening is everyone gathers somewhere in the city, everyone can talk and stuff, and later on those that want to go and get sloshed can do so :)

If you have an idea of what to do, speak up!

so far only 11 people...

Oh, and just to be clear, everyone has to wear their own pants.

lan then pub or pub then lan?

quote:Originally posted by Malus

lan then pub or pub then lan?

Drunken gaming is always fun :P

Oh.. Lan! I thought you said ian.
I was like "Who's ian?"

you crazy drunks will scare everyone away!

Scare away the smelly CS rodents?

...

It's settled. Drunken gaming it is!! @;-D

quote:Originally posted by Brain

Scare away the smelly CS rodents?

Only the threat of a wash can do that.

Pantmonger

Hey Scott & Ben seems you have got it going on in a big way - congrats & nice site (all professional like)

well depending on what the plan is for this event i'll be there and i'll let Matt know about it also.

LAN? where, how? wouldn't a public venue like a pub where we can have a few and talk dev be better?

quote:Originally posted by fuzzmeister

LAN? where, how? wouldn't a public venue like a pub where we can have a few and talk dev be better?

I imagine we'll be meeting in a pub and doing the above, then relocating to one of the numerous lan places in the city, then going back out to have a few more! [:D]

not in the city at the moment so i cant join...

but heres an idea-
go into queen st and for the guys who want to lan go to the underground place 'the bunker' then go to hooters....
[^]

Or how about a lan and beer at the same time? I'll get back to you.

Probably some time during next week. Does anyone have a problem with holding the bash during the work week?

Scott.

Aussie games will get coverage if they are worth playing :)
Good work melb. house, good to see you working on something other than a racing game :)
But you better do the transformers justice or there will be hell to pay!!!
CYer, Blitz

Sniff...and no mention of the Ty 2 Developer Diary in this month's Official Australian Xbox Magazine?

I saw that, at first glance it looked like an advertisement, but after closer inspection i realised it was actually an article...
It seems they're going to have it in every month? Pretty cool stuff.
CYer, Blitz

A link to projects in progress, or indie companies would be nice. I don't think theres any need for another forum (what would be discussed in an indie forum that wouldn't just as easily find it's place in the general or aus industry forums?)
CYer, Blitz

maybe add indie developers to the developers page in their own list?

and perhaps a list of all the indie games, with a page each for screenies and details and links and stuff

That's a much better idea than what I had planned! The independant devs listing would be like what the developers listing is, and they'd have their own profiles, game lists, game info and pics.. best of all, I don't have to do much ASP to get this going! [:)]

sounds like a plan [:D]

I'd be happy to be listed here... although i am looking for full-time employment, my game development no doubt makes me an indy.

Some might find this an interesting read... [url]http://www.avault.com/developer/getarticle.asp?name=starterkit[/url]

For sure I'd be interested in attending. But god knows what I'd like to do/see there!

Well for an indie game festival we'd have to have representatives from Auran (for the Jet engine), from GarageGames (really important), and possibly a few of the other cheaper / free engines out there. This would either be as part of an expo thing, although with Indies and in Australia this would be very small I'd take it... Or they could just give presentations on certain topics etc. Probably would also be a good idea to have a space dedicated - like a lan, but with more space to walk around and put stuff on tables - for all the indies to show off the latest projects and that.

It might be getting a decent Inde Game Festival in Australia of all places, unless you want to really make it big, and make it a regional event, then we can get people from all over Asia and NZ etc. I dunno.

we would make the 2000k trip south to be there and also give any suport that we could.
personaly, after going to 3 AGDC's, i think it is just an ass kissing event for the big boys to show off at[:o)].

Dimsdale & Kreozot United Games Manufacture

Any game dev related event that is held in brisbane will get my attendance.

quote:Originally posted by Souri

Submitted by (Zoot)

If so, what would you like to see/do there?

BOOTH BABES! [;)]

Just kidding...

I think I would go away from a conference idea, and have a rather relaxed gathering of like-minded individuals over some beer/food and computers/lan/projectors.. unless of course you get over fifty people coming. You'll have to see what the turn out will be like, but if it's anything small, then what I mentioned would be pretty nice.

I definately agree with Daemon. Get some Auran people to come and showcase their engine (Jet v2.0 is coming soon btw) - and Nocturnal Entertainment, Hemiware as well.. plus some lectures from people who know how to market and promote independant games, and other independant developers on how they've approached things. Get some of that knowledge around! If you need sponsorships, it might be worth trying [url="http://www.mmv.vic.gov.au/CA256985002E8DB7/All/116A486DEDA8FD13CA256997…"]MultiMedia Victoria[/url].

I think the independant game developer scene is definately one worth encouraging. Melbourne House/Beam and Krome started off as a small bunch of people making games, and look at them now!

Yeah I'd prefer to stick to a slightly less formal format than the AGDC. See how it goes...

The last AGDC I went to was in 2001 I believe; it was good, but I could only get in because I was a student and got in cheaply. I wanted to go last year, but the price had skyrocketed and I wasn't financially prepared enough to go.

But after reading about how well IndieCon (GarageGames' equivalent) went, I would love to see something like this. Melbourne would be a great setting to have it in (I'm in Adelaide), and I would be an informal event. I have no idea how big our indepedent games scene is over here, but I'm gathering it hasn't reached critical mass yet.

I would love to go just for the (human) networking aspects. It's hard enough trying to do stuff over the Internet... I've tried it before years ago and it worked for a while, but it fell apart in the end. To be able to inspire and encourage each other would be the kind of thing we all need.

Has anyone ideas on how we can organise such an event... where it can be hosted, who will speak? I like Daemin's idea of getting a GG representative, but getting them out here is a different question. Any other technologies that help push indie games out there too should come along for the ride.

I'd be willing to volunteer a little of my time if it helps to organise something. I don't know what I could do, but the offer is there.

Paul.

I'd definately be up for another gathering other than the AGDC.
Some things that might be intersting to see...
Maybe one or more of the CEO's of the big game companies in australia doing a talk on getting started...I say this because John deMargheriti (sp?) gave a really good talk at school (AIE) last week which was mainly focused on starting up your own company etc...
Booth babes!
Representatives from the various supportive goverments (ACT,VIC,QLD afaik) on what the government is willing to do for startup game companies...
Lots of booth space where indies can show off their game demo's...
Getting some publisher representatives along to a) look at game demo's and b) give talks on what publishers are looking for...
A "showcase" (maybe not the right word) sorta thing where say each game demo thats on display there will get 15-30 mins or so on a big screen and the developers can talk about it...
Definately get someone from the GDAA to talk about what they can do for indies...
Thats all i got for now. Oh yeah, LANs are always good too.
CYer, Blitz

I was going to sugest an indie part of Sumea for our indie friends, I've seen some interest for this in Brsibane too..

Great idea - count me in [:)]

Main interest for me would be meeting other game
developers, a couple of sessions on development
or business related stuff would also be useful to
me.

Demos of games that people are/have developing/ed
would be cool.

Cheers,

Wombat

An indy conference would be really good. it'll be a good oppoortunity to network and meet other developers. maybe it would be possible to get publishers interested, maybe they might find something interesting. who knows. i think encouraging indy developers would be good for the oz games industry (who else are gonna start the companies). I would definetely be attending (i wouldn't mind volunteering some of my time to help organise fi there is a need). sounds like a leet fully sick idea

Sounds like a great idea and something I would definitely be interested in attending. I'll even volunteer to help out if it's needed.

As long as there is a way to promote the work that indy developers are doing (demos etc), then it's all good. I'd really like to see what other indy developers are up to.

Keep us updated on what you're planning, hey Zoot!

It sounds like lots of people are interested in the "how can indie developers break into the main industry/find a publisher" question. I've had word that this year's AGDC might be more accessible for indy developers for these 'business' kind of needs, by providing a day/venue to showcase their work with a view to attracting publishers and so on. I think this is a great move for the AGDC but I wonder if there are other needs that can't really be addressed by the AGDC...

stuff like:
* a real focus on low-budget/independent games but also non-commercially oriented games, modding, mapping, game design as art, original/bizarro ideas etc
* a relaxed event run by game developers/modders and gamers themselves - not by games industry CEOs (ie a chance for certain professional developers to socialise and express our true opinions about the state of the games industry *away* from our bosses!)
* a place where even a 15yrold kid can feel comfortable about bringing his mod/map/animation/idea to get some friendly advice from local professional developers and skilled players, and meet up with some likeminded people to involved with a new project...
* advice for indy developers on distribution, self-publishing, open-source game engines, low-budget project management, running linux on your xbox etc etc
* a way of building our community that's run by us rather than the corporate industry (i guess a kind of sumea in the flesh)
* the bar/lan party/informal kind of atmosphere that people have been talking about in this thread
* similar to the way the Sound Summit (http://www.soundsummit.org/) fulfils a need outside the big budget australian music industry

The opportunity for next year in melbourne is to get funding/venues etc as an event during the 'next wave' youth arts festival. This is a very real opportunity, but we need to find out if this has enough support/volonteers/ideas before we set about getting it off the ground. So I guess it's a matter of whether if people feel they want to branch out beyond the AGDC/commercial industry kind of event....?

I'm all for it. The AGDC does have alot of "business" and "start-up" stuff but alot of it is for people with larger resources than an average indie developer has.

The AGDC is, and *should* be a conference mainly for established game developers. As maitrek said there is some "start up" type stuff there, but the majority of it is for companies establishing themselves who do have some funding to back themselves up, rather than fresh out of school types with $23 to their name.
I'd prefer to see an indie conference as less structured..? The indy conference shouldn't really bother to much with any technical talks or anything like "Getting the most out of xbox live" or "Texture management on the ps2" or anything, because those things won't be that relevant to indy people who don't have access to xbox or ps2 debug machines etc.
Talks should be more focused on (as has been said) low budget stuff, open source engines, and starting up a company with the least amount of $$.
Doing some tutorial/talks about modding stuff is interesting, i don't know how it would pull off (wether you'd get much interest in it from attendees).
I think definately (especially if the conference is run with ties to the youth arts thing) it would be a great idea to have some people talk about how to get involved in game development for people still in school etc. I think thats probably one of the hardest decisions to make is what to do when high school finishes.
Anyway, it's a great idea, i'd attend for sure. Wether i could volunteer time or anything might depend on if i'm anywhere near melbourne at the time :)
CYer, Blitz

I went to the first AGDC, but have not been back since. I think the price is ridiculous..($800 entry?) and I know that it has been setup as more of a fundraising event than as a true developers conference.

It would be great to have a indie developers conference (preferably in Melbourne.. if not than Sydney is my pref ;). If it happens, Nocturnal will most likely have a presence there - and I'll make sure all our contributors know about it.

Nocturnal's one-year old birthday is approaching, and we are having a little party to celebrate - and inviting all the developers in Melbourne.. I guess the idea was to turn that into a mini-developers conference - where the focus is getting together and having a chat more than anything else.

Mike (aka Shams - I run Nocturnal for those wondering..)

I would be interested in supporting this as Editor and owner of GameBiz. Zoot if you could contact me over emial rcumine@gamtbiz.com.au.

I would definitely be at anything going on like this in brisbane.

Sounds like a great idea Zoot. Souri mentioned above about Multimedia Victoria - I think that would be good, as having some of the government based game industry supporters talking informally about what programs they have on offer would provide some good opportunities for indie game developers to get a handle on who's who from organisations like Multimedia Victoria and Digital Media Fund (both Vic govt). It is a two way street as it is good for them to get a feel for the indie/emerging game makers and at the same time for indie/emerging game makers to have access to these people because they have good networks and knowledge.

Again, the GDAA was mentioned above, and I'd see this as an opportunity for the GDAA on the one hand to promote the organisation to future members, but to also understand what indie game makers may want from the GDAA (and that might be as simple as getting information out about the potential pathway for indie developers with regard to becoming established developers) - anyway, I think the idea is great and I'd be happy to get something into the GDAA newsletter (which I edit) to cover it before and after (tim@ematic.com.au).

Cheers

I'm all for it. Would be great to see.

Just an idea:

If there are only going to be a few of us congregating in Melbourne (say twenty?), then might it be a good idea to spend some of our time getting to know our peers, throwing round game ideas, and working out how *we* are going to go from lone wolves to indie startups. Maybe we could get Mike/Nocturnal to tell us how he got to where he is now, or anyone who catches wind of the event could relate us their story.

Maybe we could even try have a couple of small roundtables on different topics.

After that we might find somewhere we can showcase projects in development. Of course, that would depend if there were any projects developers were willing to show. There might be some Jet-powered ones from the Auran competition at least.

My opinion is that we should have an event where we can talk, relate our idea to the guy sitting next to us in passing conversation, who says "yeah, that would be cool, let's start a project." I know Sumea does that to some degree already, but talking about things in the flesh can get done what months of forum posts can't.

Just my two cents.

--Paul

IMO a turnout of only 20 people would be a bit of a failure. I'd be expecting at least 50-100...
CYer, Blitz

True it would be bad, however, there are going to be people who wouldn't come simply because they can't afford (or can't be bothered) to get to Melbourne. I don't mind travelling, I did it for AGDC, why not an indie festival which is more up my alley? :)

I'm just going on the action I see on Sumea, as to how many people would turn up, because as far as I know, Sumea *IS* the closest equivalent to a gathering place for indie developers. Maybe there are a whole lot of lurkers who may turn up -- I'm one of them. I'd gather they'd build awareness of this festival at AIE, too.

Anyhow, I suppose it depends on what Zoot had in mind for this opportunity.

--Paul

I think it's ultimately more a matter of what you guys as participants have in mind.

This what we imagine the process will be like:

Stage 1: Putting together a convincing argument to funding organisations that there is a need for this sort of gathering. Present a rough idea of the kind of stuff we'd be doing there. This will involve getting expressions of interest from people who'd be willing to participate.

if stage 1 is successful then...
Stage 2: Putting out a call for people to submit proposals for holding workshops, roundables, events, presentations, expos, LANs... or whatever people want to run.
Getting a team together to coordinate all this stuff (including reps from different parts of the country maybe)

Stage 3: Making sure the above mentioned participants can actually get to Melbourne by coming up with travel subsidies and so on (from carving up the above-mentioned funding!)

So to help get Stage 1 happening, it'd be great if anyone who thinks they'd 'in principle' come to this kind of event and participate at some level could drop me line at kipper(at)gdlo(dot)org and briefly say what kind of game-related stuff you do. This is so we can say 'hey look, there's all these people who do this kind of stuff who are interested in participating' and get a sense of how big or small this event might be.

And if you're interested in helping to get this thing off the ground make sure you say that too!

Thanks to everyone who's aired their ideas on the forum so far - it's really valuable for us to get a sense of the needs of the developer community. Keep'em coming...

AS far as convincing arguments go, it might be worth taking a look at the recent GDAA submission http://www.gdaa.asn.au/houseofrepsinquirysubmission.pdf
It has a lot of good info about the current and future projected state of the aust. industry. Especially focus on the growth in jobs etc.
Good luck.
CYer, Blitz

It is a shame nothing like this comes to WA, even a workshop of some kind would be great. It would be good to hear from fellow WA people who are disapointed in the lack of game development choices here in WA.[:(]

Great idea... this is exactly what we need.

Maybe a good way to begin would be to have a poll to see where the majority of people are located to get an idea of where it should be held. I'm sure state governments in both Melbourme and Queensland would have grants to help fund it as well as corporate sponsorship... hopefully enough to allow for free or very low admission cost.

I'd also be prepared to offer some time to help kick it off.

Just FYI ACT gov has the same sort of funding set-ups for game dev as vic and qld do. I doubt the population is very dense in canberra though :P.
Personally i wouldn't mind a holiday to QLD for it *hint hint* :)
CYer, Blitz

In smaller games dev studios the impression I get is that employees 'doubling up' on jobs is very common.

I'm going to make this sticky until there are some really good responses to this.. [;)]

Hi guys,

I work for a smaller independant developer who currently specialises in the wargaming market (www.battlefront.com). Im currently the only full time graphic artist there, though we have recently started another guy working for us now on a contract basis.

Basically I do work in just about every field. For our last game for instance I did most of the 3D work for the vehicles and textured most of them. On top of this I had to texture all of the environment, buildings, skies, etc. Whilst doing this I also had to do any ad work that needed completing, plus some graphical work for our web page and some graphical work for other games we publish.

So basically yes, doubling up is very common for the smaller companies Id say :). Im sure that the larger developers out there would have guys that just specialise in certain areas, though Im not sure they would keep a full staff on full time unless they had a game in progress at the time? I guess most develeopers always have some game in progress though. Smaller companies would probably tend to be able to keep their artists busier, but be prepared for some very late nights when deadlines draw close, hehe.

Either way if you love games and art, its a great job to have! :) I live in queensland even though the guys I work for are based in Boston. Im sure there are such companies over here and you should start to see more Id think, particually as more and more companies start to investige online selling of their games.

Hope that answers the question a little, anyways.

Dan

Hi Groady,

The larger studios often hire both 3D and 2D artists as individual separate jobs. I believe it's much more productive if you can find artists who can do both very well (being able to produce good concept art as well is a big plus) otherwise you can run into communication difficulties from time to time eg: a 3D artist requires specific textures to be mapped onto an object and because the 2D artist doesn't have a good knowledge of 3D or more specifically UV mapping, he/she may not get it right the first time (this may not be such a good example, but you know what I'm getting at).

You're right about artists being the first ones to get layed off when things get tough, the general thought is artists are a dime a dozen and there's plenty out there breaking their necks to get into the industry, while good programmers are much more difficult to find and are generally greater assets to the company.

Here at Irrational we have a 2d concept artist which is also the art director and are about to hire a new 2d artist. But the rest of the artist texture what they model for the most part, and then there is the animation which is again done by a different team. So petty much we have Concept artist, 3D artist (include texturing) and animators. They some time cross into each other and people may change into a different area on a new game.

I'm now doing charcater animation for one game and character modeling (not texturing) and animation on another.

Thats a damn good question. What the hell do we do? I work at Microforte in sydney and before that worked for Ratbag in both the adelaide and sydney studios.

Although having a wide range of skills is very much a bonus in games, I have probably come across more specialised artists than I have all rounders in my time. I think as people are employed they start to learn more things or atleast master the things they already do know and decide to branch out into other things. Concept artists are quite often contractors, since near the end of the project, there isn't a lot for them to do. I've also noticed that Art directors do a fair bit of concepting from time to time. Texture artists and modeller combinations are pretty common, though there are people that just specialsie in just one of these. Animators and level designers seem to be fairly specialsied and I havn't noticed a lot of overlap in these areas.

My advice to anyone looking to get in is to do atleast one thing very well. Atleast then you can stand out as a kick ass texture artist or a very solid modeller. Also try to have related skillsets. Concepting and animation are at opposite ends of the pipeline and you most likely wouldn't be assigned to do both of these things on a project. However concepting and texturing/or modelling are quite closely related in the pipeline, so it would be concievable that you could be required to do both of these things.

Yea they are US based. Eugene, Oregon to be exact :) I grew up about 30 minutes from there.
They have the Tribes2 Engine for like $100 US that people can buy. IIRC they also do the hosting for the game and are "publishers" so if the game makes money they will take a %.

Sure, but it does give exposure to people that not all computer games are just for horny adolescent teenagers anymore, that all people can have fun and be entertained by them.

I'm guessing the story will be on this Sunday Night?

yeah its on this sunday night

quote:Sure, but it does give exposure to people that not all computer games are just for horny adolescent teenagers anymore

Going by the advertisment its showing that games are also for horny adults. Not a huge improvment.
For the most part those that like games play them, those that dont, dont and those that dont because they think that they are for kids and should not be played by adults, but change their minds after seeing a short TV story on it should not be anyones target audience.

Pantmonger

alot of people who dont play games also think its a big waste of time, and to some extent i would have to agree with them. While at the same time, these same people spend hours on end wired to there TV sets. In a way, games are just the next evolution in popular couch entertainment. I think thats what Microsoft is going for with the X box.

Pfsh... waste of time. Those couch potatoes have nothing on my mad hand-eye/feet-eye coordination skills! @:-D

Prepare to be disappointed... remember, it is 60 Minutes... a show that's worse than A Current Affair, yet purports to be serious.

Games, a waste of time! Begone heretics before I smite thee.

If you want to get real literal, isn't doing anything a waste of time? [:P]

Brain: not just coordination skills up the wahzoo but the ability to see thru walls thanks to the absorbed 21" monitor gamma radiation!! boo ha ha!!

Just remembered that this is on shortly, so thought I'd bump up as a reminder

What rubbish that was.

Scott.

You watched it? Wow.

Pantmonger

It was pretty crap...
The first half seemed to be trying to discredit "adult oriented" games, concentrating on BMX XXX, and the second half pretty much just talked vaguely about the sims online. There were some other little bits, but those two seemed to be the main stories.
Basically it was 15 mins of pap, and didn't really do anything other than put some games on the screen. Not much of a story.
CYer, Blitz

Mmm, muchly agreed. As soon as I saw BMX XXX, I rolled my eyes. Already knew how it was going to turn out.

I think the last time I actually watched 60 Mins, they had that same guy anaconda guy on. Odd...

The ignorant fools!

Bleh.

Yeah, it was rather disapointing. They also made The Sims Online out to be quite successful yet all I've heard about it, is that it's doing quite poorly.

EA's studio was very nice though. It was funny watching the developers of BMX XXX try to spin what is basically interactive perving into something more profound lol.

It's probably not a brilliant idea to ignore these kinds of shows and how we (the games makers/players) are portrayed. It's easy for us to laugh it off, but it doesn't win us any fans either!

damn, missed it. by the sound of things, i didn't miss much

It was both interesting and pathetic at the same time, it was a cheap American 60 minutes rip-off story buy a guy who is a self-proclaimed non-gamer, and I doubt that they did much research for it either, they only had a bit of Bill Gates and the Xbox, Will Wright (sp?) and the Sims, and some BMX XXX and the guys trying to defend it.

They could've done a bit more research and gone after John Carmack / ID Software, Tim Sweeney / Epic Games, Sid Meier, or Warren Spector / Ion Storm even!

Ahh well, at least my mum knows that I'm aiming to go into a decent industry with my Career...

Yeah, maybe they wanted to avoid the typical stories about Doom or whatever and violence in gaming? But it's so overdone in the media I doubt most people pay attention anymore - I imagine that's why they wanted to look at the interactive perving issues.

Game tester, I'd say probably at least of legal working age, I think some companies might take work experience people as testers, although I do not know that for sure. If not that then do it when you're doing uni.

So I'd say not until you're at least 16, and then probably not until you're 18+

Best way to get going is start testing free stuff out on the internet, get some testing skills behind you. Learn to document bugs you find, as well as how to make them happen again (this can be fun for those 1-out-of-a-100-times bugs @;-)

Keep your eyes out for offers for open and closed beta testing. And if you have mates that program, ask to test their stuff too. The more experience you get behind you, the better the chance you'll have.

Yeah, friends programs are full of bugs :)

Bug catchin' is an art, and an art worth yer learnin'

It's only an art because we haven't made a real science for it...

(Art->Science->Engineering, that's how it roughly works)

Are there any Sydney developers left?? I haven't seen much around! Maybe they've all jumped interstate! Put your hands up if you're an independant game developer from Sydney! [:)]

So true Souri, they have all disappeared.

I read a thread on another Aus game dev site that had some Sydney game dev hopefuls saying Sydney was the best place for game dev and that all the 'real' talent was down there and the rest of the country where hacks?!.
Not going to get into the arrogance of that statement but I find it so so funny that they are all now moving to Brisbane and Melbourne because its the place the companies seem to be lol.

BTW: I don't think all sydney dev guys/gals are arrogant, just the ones who made that statement.

Hi Jai,

i'm still in sydney- thought it was mostly pokker machine and animation studios in sydney~~ all my game dev work is for people elsewere (qld, america, canada, asia)

I'm just a 3d artist with the delusion of grandure of being able to program...

DSC

Wicked! @:-D Definitely be tuning in from now on.

UP THE LIL RAT!

Damn, missed it. Thanks for the heads up Souri.

err.... i watched it, i gotta say i was a bit dissapointed though.
seemed more like some people reading from a press briefs from high paying companies.
I wonder what it would be like if gamers really knew what gamedev was like or what it involved... no doubt they don't want to know.

Just a reminder that Control Freaks is on tomorrow (Sunday)..

Hmm, doesn't seem to be on in the West :/

Whoops, I just posted about his in the General forum. I'll repeat here in hope of another answer :P
But yeah, did anyone watch it today? I'm just wondering if anyone can confirm Micro Forte CEO, John DeMargheretti (again, shocking spelling) saying that Citizen Zero will be for both Xbox and PC?

Cheers! :)

I missed it, unfortunately. I'm sure someone else here caught it. Anyone know the answer?

Someone said something about it being the first MMOG for the XBox, but I missed the begining...

I'm pretty sure it's XBox only...

12 for a gaming show..
thats not gamer friendly.. thats just stupid, no one is awake by then

Mmm, know I wasn't. Was up til 4:30am playing Defence of the Ancients on BNet and didn't arise til 1pm @:-p

Yeah I'm p0retty sure it's Xbox only too. It was a glimmer of hope though.

Definately have to put a good aussie V8 muscle car in it. Im thinking a 1937 HQ monaro or a 351 gto phase 3! I hope they use the original meshes we create, y would they have us make it with maya, not lightwave or max????? Neway goodluck 2 everyone!!

KRIS --- Control freaks is on saturdays at 1.30pm to 2.00pm on channel seven in the west.[:)]

yeh, me + reznor are gonna be there

Yes indeed. See our south park profiles so you can recognize us. [:D]

Scott.

Just in case people want to know more about the Digital By Design seminar!

Digital By Design in association with Scholastic New Media, Discreet, nVIDIA and HP present David Austin from Atari, Maryland USA.

David will give us a behind the scenes look at the Atari pipeline and an insight in to the development and art of Dungeons & Dragons: Heroes for XBOX.

3 Cities
Brisbane - Monday 16th June - 6pm
Sydney - Wednesday 18th June - 6pm
Melbourne - Friday 20th June - 3pm

www.discreet.com/remote/apac_enews/games_seminar_au/invite.htm

Yep I will be there (Brisbane) to have a listen and see whats going down.

I'll be there provided my email wasn't sent too late (just did it now).

If it was too late, I shall forge a clever disguise by using rezn0r's face from his south park picture! Muhahahaha! No-one will ever know! ...now I just need to find some girls to complete the charade.

David.

I'll be there, looks like it's going to be a cool evening

I might be there... I've signed up but I have a fairly large uni exam at 8:30am on tuesday.... So i guess it all depends on how confident I feel about it on monday afternoon.

I'm pretty sure this is where it is (Brisbane):
[img]http://members.optusnet.com.au/redwyre/files/map.jpg[/img]

Got to work. [:(]

Let us know how this went, and post anything you found interesting!

I'll be going along to the Sydney one. Apparently it's being held in a pub, so I can't really loose.

Mmm, t'was a goodly night. Those considering going to the Sydney or Melbourne ones, definitely do it. Essentially it's a big advert night, but it's worth it nevertheless. I've been a long time 3DSMAX 3.1 user for a long time, only touching gMAX recently, so seeing features of 5.1 totally blew me away.

Beer o'clock gave way to meeting some interesting people. Unfortunately didn't get to talk to Dave Austin, but met up with a few mates and ex-lecturers which was great. Only met redwyre from the Sumeans (I know where you live sucka! @;-) so something more solid than South Park personas will be needed for future meets. *laughs* Can write up a full review of the night if anyone wishes so.

I couldnt get there - had a disaster at work at 4:30 (not caused by me but i had to fix it of course) so i didnt leave till 6PM and couldnt be bothered walking from CBD to Fort Val

Yeah, turns out Brain lives up around the corner from me :)

Alot of it was boring to me, but some of the features of 3DSMax5 are amazing, one thing that really impressed me was the ease at which the guy lit a scene with radiosity ligting, and it looked so good.

Also, Dave Austin showed us some of the characters from the game, and then showed us the game on XBox, which looks really impressive and fun to play (I want it now!).

But as Brain has said, it was basically just a big advert.

It was good, the Beer and food were good also.
If you are already good(ish) with Max then you will find little gems in the demos, for me it was baking verts when skinning using envelopes,I didn't know it could do that.

The D+D game was suprisingly low poly (434 vert average) the FMV intro was not real good, looked like they where trying to do a 'Blizzard' job but failed. The game load times where shocking and they said it was alpha it wasn't that ready yet. But nice to see some of the real work pipelines that people went through.

Well worth going and if you have the cash and want to buy a pro copy of Max, they will give you a free P4 2.4G workstation, which is kind of cool.

Pantmonger

[:(!]where does western australia fit into the equation arent we good enough?[?]

yeh represent da westsida!!

as far as i know, we only got one accredited course. This course is held at FTI. However, i think at present it is only focused on the frontend of things (graphics, animation blah blah) with plans for future courses to hold a stream in the back end (programming blah blah). Having said that, im not sure whether they will include at all, a unit in actual game design (learning to build something worth playing blah blah).

For more info hit up the website. www.fti.blah blah.

I'm doing a Bachelor of Digital Media at the moment. I'm in my second semester of my 2nd year and it's getting good. It's at The College of Fine Arts UNSW. http://www.cofa.unsw.edu.au

There is one subject "Narrative and Gameplay" where we study games a bit more in depth. We also do subjects in 3d modelling and animation. But if you do take this course, be prepared to slug your way through a LOT of preliminary couses such as photography, typography, modern art, post modern art etc... Their aim is to give you a well rounded knowledge with fundamentals of art to help develop your overall aesthetic sensibilities. Which is good IMO but time consuming.

It's a 3 year course. In the third year you get to work on portfolio stuff and direct your studies more towards what you're interested in.

For 2D and 3D artists, it's an ok course. But if you want hardcore vocational training, do not come here. This place is about cultivating your mind, not just your software skills. you'll have to work on your 3d modelling/life drawing in your own time.

Just my 2 cents.

If you have any further questions, try posting on our message forum:
http://phorum.cofa.unsw.edu.au/list.php?f=5

It is good to see murdoch uni has finally got a course here in perth, the first year is a lot of programming and mathamatics. The second year is when they actually get into the real game development.

This is good stuff, Im auctually looking at courses at the moment...sought of

I am actually enroled in the Murdoch Games Technology course for 2004. I start feb 2004. I will keep u guys posted on how it goes and if it is any use in the games industry!

Wish ME Good Luck [:)]

Acer

Oi! ur in WA acer? cool, how long is da course for? does it cover all aspects of gaming or is it strictly program based? Im currently enrolled in FTI animation course. It's only the initial weeks so theres not really alot to talk about now, but atm its pretty tight.

My partner is going through the process of being enrolled into the course at murdoch. The first year is pretty straight forward, so he will be excempted from most of the first year. The second and third year is more on the game devlopment side of things.
I will let you know how he goes...

Hi, this is my first post!
Anyway, I'm in my 3rd year of Bachelor of Information Technology / Bachelor of Creative Industries (Communication Design) at QUT.
According to QUT "This four year double degree prepares students for work in the games development and entertainment industries."
Its a good degree but I'm not sure how much it really is preparing us for a career in game development as we haven't done much to combine the skills of both degrees yet, but hopefully we will be doing that next year on our final project. I'm excited because my year will be the first year to graduate from this double degree and there is only about 6 or 7 of us, of which I am 1 of only 2 girls. This course needs a bit of ironing out yet as its only new but I think it will be excellent in the future.
[url]http://www.studyfinder.qut.edu.au/cgi-bin/WebObjects/StudyFinder.woa/2/…]
Ok, thats the end of my plug!

Great comments - good to see many of you in different institutions.. keep us updated on your course when you finish!

well most of you are lucky to have one place that offers specifically game dev courses...i live in the most un-gamely state in Australia...TASMANIA!

But the AIE is looking good and relatively close so Im happy

AIE has just opened up a melbourne campus in the atari house. not sure on the details, there is information somewhere on the aie website though.

yeh...i have checked out the details on the Melbourne campus and they r not taking 1st year programmers until 2005 or something...so i have to wait and see if I get a funded position in Canberra, if not i'll do something else until 2005

I believe monash and latrobe also have 3 year bachelor (comp sci?) degrees in game development (or majoring in game dev). It would be worth checking these out.
CYer, Blitz

University of Technology, Sydney will start offering 2 new courses on games in 2004. See http://www-staff.it.uts.edu.au/~ypisan/ for details.

2 courses does not make a degree, but it is a start...

Yusuf

The La Trobe URL is a link to the general page rather than the computer-science department. The proper URL is http://www.latrobe.edu.au/cs

I should have provided some more info about La Trobe. I'm a research student and tutor there(my topic is "methodologies for generating realistic audio in computer games"). You can only get the "majoring in games technology" printed on your degree if you do 4 years, and you don't do any game stuff until third year. It is a computer science degree, and covers all the fundamentals that this implies. You can see the full list of subjects at http://www.latrobe.edu.au/cs/undergraduates/subjects/
Of course game systems can be studied at up to and including phd (doctoral) level.

Hi there,

Has anyone here studied at Media Design School in Aucks? What did you think of it - good teachers, good education, value for money etc?

Has anyone been on or enrolled in their new computer game design course? I'm interested in going on it but don't want to be a guinee pig

quote:Originally posted by lorien

I should have provided some more info about La Trobe. I'm a research student and tutor there(my topic is "methodologies for generating realistic audio in computer games"). You can only get the "majoring in games technology" printed on your degree if you do 4 years, and you don't do any game stuff until third year. It is a computer science degree, and covers all the fundamentals that this implies. You can see the full list of subjects at http://www.latrobe.edu.au/cs/undergraduates/subjects/
Of course game systems can be studied at up to and including phd (doctoral) level.

Four years, damn. I think there are a lot easyer ways to get into the industry.

quote:Originally posted by Doord


Four years, damn. I think there are a lot easyer ways to get into the industry.

Blow jobs and bribes?

quote:Originally posted by chris_w

Hi there,

Has anyone here studied at Media Design School in Aucks? What did you think of it - good teachers, good education, value for money etc?

Has anyone been on or enrolled in their new computer game design course? I'm interested in going on it but don't want to be a guinee pig

Hi Chris,
If you need any more details on the course, I strongly suggest posting your query in the NZGDA (New Zealand Games Developer Association) forum - they just put the forum up a short while ago, and it's frequented by Sidhe people, and also people running game dev courses in NZ.. [url="http://www.nzgda.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=4"]The forum is this way[/url]! If anyone has an unbiased review of the course, please do post it here. [:)]

I live in sydney and was wondering if there are any degrees/courses in game development or design in my area? I know there are courses at Charles Sturt but that is too far for me to go. I attended a careers market a year or two ago that had information for a college i think but i cannot find the info that i got that day.
Could you help me out please?????
[?]
Thanx!!!

sorry to sort of change the subject, but for all the Tasmanites here on Sumea, the University of Tasmania offers a unit in Game Development in the Honours (4th) year...check out [url]http://www.admin.utas.edu.au/HANDBOOKS/UTASHANDBOOKS/UNITS/UNITSK/KXA46…]

I was just wondering, for 3d modeling do you need to be able to draw like on paper really well. Even though being 3d in a computer means you can edit it to what it should look like even if your artistic talent is the size of a pea.

it wouldnt hurt. you should be able to draw.

I can draw, stick figures. But i have plenty of time to practise.

Hey im from perth and just finished a advanced dip. in animation last year at central tafe, its mainly just modelling and animation no coding at all and now im currently studying at FTi as part of the CADSA program developing game demos. this finish's half way threw the year and i was wanting to move to Melbourne can anyone recommend any course to study in melb while looking for work, main only interested in the graphic side of game dev !!!

thanks
Colm
p.s i will soon have my portfolio up at www.touchmydesign.com have a look if your intrested

hi...can any one tell me hows the diploma of multimedia in southbank institute of tafe....

is the course in griffth university.....wots it called....cant find it on thier website....

Queensland TAFE.
I?ve just finished the Diploma of Games development at Brisbane institute of TAFE. The course is supposedly the TAFE version of the game diploma run at Qantm, meaning that it is somewhat cheaper because of the government subsidy (though still expensive), but also lacking in resources compared to Qantm. I found it to be an excellent course that while only runs for one year, really improved all my game development skills (2d drawing, 3d modelling, programming etc). It was however a bit disorganised, and required plenty of self motivation.

Like any course of this nature, it is extremely important to be highly motivated. I went through with seven other guys, and all but one other dropped out through the year. You can?t go into a career in games development without a great attitude, so don?t think that just because a particular course is very expensive or highly acclaimed means that it will be easy. I think the most important aspect of a good game developer is their personal motivation, not their education, so for me, the tafe option was the best. Just make sure you really want to succeed in the industry, and you can make it happen. [:)]

if you interested there is also a new couse in melbourne at holmesglen tafe

it's a 18 month diploma of animation or a 24 month advanced diploma of animation the course covers a lot of ground and the main 3d program is maya

yer that one looks interesting, just had a look at their Web Site.

Thanks.

If you can, study under Dr. Kevin Suffern at UTS - he's one of australia's best computer graphics teachers, he does electives and professional education courses through UTS, cheers

Cheers mate.

Sorry, but when you say you want to learn 3d graphics, do you mean with programming or art?

Hi again,

I'm more interested in the Art side of things. Has anyone here studied at the Computer Graphics College in Sydney?

heh kevin suffern is more for the programming side :)

Have a look at [url="http://www.sumea.com.au/slinkstation.htm"]Sumea's links page[/url]. You'll find info and links to Qantm, the Academy of Interactive Entertainment, and the Game Developers Association of Australia's page on Universities that offer game related studies..

Are you looking for game DESIGN or game DEVELOPMENT... I think people tend to use design a little loosely, they usually mean development. I don't think i've seen any courses in game design...it's not really something you can learn through an institution, it's more something learned through experience.
But anyway, enough hijacking of this thread.
CYer, Blitz

La Trobe in Bundoora, Victoria has a full time course with a focus on games that awards a Comp Sci degree (which is far more useful than a Multimedia or Games degree if you end up wanting to find a job outside of the industry).

As Blitz mentioned above, like most courses, I would think that this one also concentrates on development and not "design".

Cheers,

Ross.

Game design isn't a very easy thing to walk into. Its usually reserved for people who have worked their way up in the industry and now get to do the fun stuff.

I'd recommend picking up some development skills... a game designer with a technical background that can script is a good thing to be.

Scott.

quote:Originally posted by Blitz

Are you looking for game DESIGN or game DEVELOPMENT... I think people tend to use design a little loosely, they usually mean development. I don't think i've seen any courses in game design...it's not really something you can learn through an institution, it's more something learned through experience.
But anyway, enough hijacking of this thread.
CYer, Blitz

Actually,i mean game development.I already have a degree in computing science which taught me programming etc etc.I know some programm and learnt some 3D modelling and drawing on my own, so i can be considered as a jack of all trades, master of none. I am thinking of taking up such courses to as to get some connections to enter the industry.

Hello @:-)

You'll find plenty of Brisbanites around these parts, myself included. Care to show any of the games you've made? I'm tooling with Director in my course (BA of Multimedia at Griffith), and am currently doing a game for my assignment.

Uhm... yeah. Welcome aboard @:-)

Cows and monkeys are always a good thing :)

I did the game diploma at QANTM in Brisbane last year and am currently employed at Krome Studios, which makes me a Brisbanite :P I used to make Doom levels (normal Doom back when I was younger, then got back in to it a couple of years ago and made maps for ZDoom - http://zdoom.notgod.com ), tried Duke3D level making but the whole Hi/Low number thingo turned me off that.

And, um, that's about all for now :P

Hi!

Sorry for not responding sooner, but I've got exams and assignments right now, and to top it off, Win XP died on me, so I've been running around going off my head for the past few days!

Brian, what was QANTUM like? Before applying to QUT, I sussed it out, but the impression I got from the students there at the time (3 years ago mind you) was that it was just a big LAN party everyday, no work done or learnt. What was your impression of QANTUM? Did you learn much?

Once I've finished my exams, I'd love to show you guys one of my games - the one I'm just finishing now for an assignment is pretty cool! I had to program physics for pool balls to make them move and bounce realistically - a mental nightmare, but very satifying! They're the basis for the game I've made. Only problem is, I'm not a musician, so while the programming, grahics and sound F.X. were done
done completely by myself, the music I had to take from other games. Of course, I credit the source of the music at the start of the game, but it still bugs me that part of the game wasn't made by me, but there's nothing I can do becuase I can't compose music!

'Gotta get back to assignments, study and all those annoyances!

'Later!

Jack

Hey OZ_joker, Brisvegas boy here too. [:P]

I went to QANTM in 2001 and during my time it wasn't very organised, both code and graphics in one stream with alot of teacher changes.
But now its top notch from what I've seen during my time working there, the courses have been split into code and graphics streams and the teachers have alot more ability to teach the relevant skills, some talented guys there now btw so look out in the future. Also the games aren't there either so people actually do work.
I'd recommend QANTM for sure now, that is if you are willing to put in the work yourself and don't expect it to be handed to you like highschool was.

Just one thing too, for those you talk to you complaining that studying at QANTM ruined there chances, thats aload of pants, I went there during probably its worst time, they were fluctuating with ideas etc and it got messy but my friend now works for Krome and alot of others are in the indsutry now too.

I think you take from things what you can and theres no excuses for being a slack arse, I used the time I had there as productively as I could and got alot of contacts and skills under my belt, hell I'm teaching the stuff now.

Did play a few games but only when i had time free.

Hope that helps.

Hey, I've just registered too (another Brisbanite), and have been wasting my time iterating through all the topics instead of working on my game so I can go and present it to someone and get a job.

I'm another '02 QANTM student, it was fantastic when I went there and although the best (IMHO) lecturer is no longer with the school, I imagine they are still top notch for game dev.

As for making your own music next time around, check out Sonic Foundry's Acid Pro, it is a very simple, easy way to create music that is great for games. It basicly strings sample sounds togeather, allowing you to fade in or out, change the stereo balance and mix samples over each other. Acid is particuly good for industrial (my world!) and techno.

Any other game development skills? Or just Macromedia Director/Flash and art (for now?). Generally as a game designer you will be well placed to know some programming skills- it helps in the design process. Most will lean toward C++ & Direct X (me) or OpenGL.

David.

Lots of people in Brisbane interested in game dev it seems

I just moved here recently for work, anyone going to the Digital by Design conference on Monday night??

Hi Everyone, I'm another person from Brisbane who's just joined who also did the QANTM course... I was there in 01/02 so i probablly already know half of you. At the moment I'm in the second year of an IT degree at QUT. I'm pretty focused on game programming ( C++, DirectX, 3D Math, Engine Design etc ) and was recently persuing a job at Evolution Games before it collapsed. Anyway, i'm glad i got recommended this site, it's got a lot a good stuff.

-Neil

I think your best bet would be to go to the US, cuz theyve been creating 3d fx and what not for alot longer than OZ. But ive heard some dodgy stuff about Fullsail, so u might wanna enquire into the schools over there b4 u dish out da dough.

IF ur looking for animation, without a shadow of a doubt, i'd go to the Pixar University. The course may be pricey, but you only need to look at there body of work to b convinced of its quality. FYI they did Toy Story 1 & 2, Bugs Life, Monsters Inc and that Nemo one. Animation doesnt get much better than that. ( you could argue Shrek, but i said 'much better', which really it aint)

There is Qantm in Brisbane, and AIE in Canberra iirc

hey thnx, yeh i know US is a good bet , but now after the MAtrix and lord of the rings i guess things in Oz have picked up too.So what were the stuff u heard bout full sail?yeh AIE and qantm suppoed to be good and SIT too...just pickin the best bet.......
........fonzz