Industry and Education

I loved the bit with the guy walking through the air, and the bit with the guy on the phone saying, it's still raining indoors, lol.

Was cool though, liked the look of it, If I was a fan of MMORPG I might look into it.

All in all good. (You're breathing when your dead!)

Pantmonger

Breathe when they're dead? The demo that Ethan and I worked on had characters that shot into the air while lying on their backs if they saw you. Thats what you get when you throw it all together the night before. [:)]

The bigworld technology looks exciting. Korea should have given Microforte MMOG money instead of Auran if you ask me.

Scott.

Citizen Zero looked interesting, will be good to see how it developes, or how it has developed from the 6 months ago it was filmed. My first look at Micro Forte residents as well.

The whole CS part didn't interest me all that much.

How big is the Micro Forte team? It looks like there were only ten people in that studio [:)].. Who were the four publishers (that have a hold of the industry) that John De Margheriti spoke of? Seems like the Micro Forte team were under quite a bit of pressure - I'm sure having the feeling of your publisher dropping your game at any time must be pretty stressful.
SO that Catalyst special was filmed 6 months ago? Citizen Zero was about to have a world wide media press release whatever nearly half a year ago?? I wonder what's been happening since then!
2 million Koreans play Lineage?? HOLY CRAP that's a lot of subscribers. Maybe Micro Forte were too busy concentrating on what they're doing at the moment to be starting another MMOG for that Korean publisher ;) I wonder what's happened to that Excalibur title that Auran were working on. Haven't heard anything about it for over a year and a half now.
And yeh, I agree, the Counterstrike 'clan' segments of the program weren't interesting. When those guys were explaining how they got their CS nicks, I wanted to change the channel. :)

Did someone record it? :/

[code]The whole CS part didn't interest me all that much.[/code]

Yeah same here. When it was on I was doing my shark concept and every time the counterstrike thing came up I was back drawing. I yo yo'ed the entire show.

Pantmonger

quote:How big is the Micro Forte team? It looks like there were only ten people in that studio .. Who were the four publishers (that have a hold of the industry) that John De Margheriti spoke of?

I think they mentioned around 40 people worked at Micro Forte... or was it 14? :)

IMO I think the four biggest publishers would be EA, Microsoft, Sony and... hmm, last one is a tough call - thoughts?

I would go with Infogrames or is it Atari now :)

I thought it was a pretty poor production, but it's good to see them and the industry getting some recognition.

Can someone explain to me the attraction of that Counter Strike game?

whats catalyst?

redwyre, i recorded it. if u r in melbourne i suppose i could pass it to you

Brisbane :/

i recorded some of it, but i missed out on some of the beginning.

I finally got to watch the tape of it today. Overall it (Citizen Zero)looked good, but I imagine that microforte are probably better off not rushing (either for a press release or the final product), they looked like they wanted to have alot of features in the game, and it's extremely difficult to design all the pieces so they fit together and it takes time to do those kinds of things.

The CS parts weren't that crap, but I don't see the pertinence to the MicroForte project. MicroForte are trying to captivate a general casual gamer audience, and fundamentally hardcore gamers are a totally different breed of gamer. There will always be hardcore gamers - they aren't the future of gaming - the people that don't usually play games are the real future of gaming (as strange as that sounds).

I enjoyed that show quite a bit, very glad to see CZ isnt dead (hadnt actually seen any hard evidence).

I've yet to see the tape of the show (of all people, it was my
parents who rang me to say they'd taped it... Perhaps they're
chilling out in their old age :-)

Aaannyways, for those who didn't get to see it there's at
least a full transcript of the show at the ABC's website:

http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s861568.htm

Cheers,

CombatWombat (spot the sumea newbie :-)

head over to the developers section of this website, it lists all the developers in Australia

Whaaa, why is it only on PS2, will anyone be doing a conversion to xbox? :)
CYer, Blitz

I've downloaded the movie and I have to say it's looking awesome! Will be looking forward to how MH are approaching gameplay, but seeing the robots transform in mid action, run and attack, drive, shoot from FPS view (which I'm assuming from a vehicle with weapons), and fly is very cool. [:)] Looks very smooth too. That glimpse of the galaxy/nebula in there gave me a flash back of the Transformer movie..
I think that other Transformers game is from a company in Japan who are taking a kind of Street Fighter 2 approach with the title.

70 sounds like an above-average staff-count aimed for development of big-licensed and high profile titles in the next season, - there will always be demand for better art, more effects, higher-detailed cutscenes and longer gameplay, none of which will come from extra-extra-overtime (everyone's already killng themselves to meet dealines). We all know that some games exceed that head count, but I'd imagine the mean number would still average 30, and I don't see that changing for a while. Some studios don't follow the rule, ie Krome, 70-ish on a project, most of the them are new guys happy to be in the industry on a sub-minimum wage.[B)]I think there'll be more 'small' teams making fun games on the low-price end of the market, using middleware to fill the dev-team gap.

Not surprising really.

Most US teams seem to be between 50 - 80, with some over 100. A lot of the Japanese developers are already this size. Nintendo's teams sits at about 300 employees. Miyamoto's preferred method for game production is to get a game to beta stage then start again from scratch keeping only the best levels... if only more teams could afford to do that.

Teams have been around that size for a long time on console titles. They tend to fly through the production process, so I doubt it would take two years to make a project, more likely 12-18 months...afaik. That helps make it possible....that and the employees get peanuts.

Well, probably what happens is that the teams start out as like 10 people - managers, designers, concept artists, producers... and then when the design is solidified somewhat more people are added until the project moves along, with more people being added when new things are required..

So even though you start out slowly you will fill up over time.

I remember reading a newsletter from TiGA (The Independent Game Developers Trade Association UK http://www.tiga.org.uk/) back in early 2002 - the newsletter reported on a British government sponsored trade trip to Japan. A bunch of UK developers went over to smooch the key publishers and console makers, and I recall the article saying that it was not uncommon for Japan to have teams of 200 dedicated for 18 months to 2 years on major titles for the PS2.

Pretty amazing compared to the size of the developer industry in Oz - about 660 if you listen to the Vic state government. Enough for over 3 titles at once the Japanese Kaisha (company) way?

GBA can be done with a 3 to 4 man team and 6 months. This kind of turn around in game production is fast, thus it is the bread and butter for a lot of game companies.

Pantmonger

I'd say that GBA development most closely resembles the garage-days programming environment... 2D graphics, limited processors, coding to the metal, simple games...

Tell me I'm not right?

I think the short answers Torus gave when I asked why they concentrated on the GameBoy Advance is a good summary on why game devs develop for that platform.. ([url="http://www.sumea.com.au/sart3AGDC02.asp"]article here[/url])..

quote:Torus has always supported Nintendo and their handheld line up since the onset, so it seemed logical that with the vast experience that we have with them to continue working with the Game Boy Advance. It helps in a number of ways. We turn around products quickly, we are able to take on staff that might not be ready for console work and it keeps a good relationship with publishers going. It's also a fun system to develop for and the team enjoys working with it.

However, I've read somewhere that the profit margin on each GBA title sold is pretty slim pickings when you take out Nintendo's licensing, cartridge costs and everything else.. plus with the competition in GBA market, it's pretty tough. When Crawfish Interactive shut down in the UK, I'm sure that affected a lot of the local game devs here in Australia.

That recent Sony announcement on their entry to the handheld market is definately gonna shake up a few things for the GBA. [url="http://games.slashdot.org/games/03/05/13/2116257.shtml?tid=207&tid=127&…"]To quote Slashdot[/url], "The games come on a new media format, half the size of a CD or DVD, holding 1.8 gigs.".. HOLY CRAP!!! There goes that small team for handheld development idea!...
I think Nokia's N-Gage is standing on considerably more shaky ground now too.

A friend who was developing a GBA title until nintendo raised their licensing fees told me that after everything else was taken out, he would have been making $1 per unit sold, and with a $30,000 forward from his publisher, the game had to sell 30,000 copies before his team (of 3) would see a single cent.
CYer, Blitz

Some Oz developers have a proprietary engine for the GBA, like Tantalus does with their CRIS engine, which was actually re-engineered from an engine they did for console (Sega Saturn I think). I suppose apart from the lower barriers to entry to develop for GBA, there is also the ability to stand out? But on the issue of Crawfish going under and the effect on the developers in Australia, wicked-witch software (which used to develop for crawfish) has gone further into mobile territory, developing Java games for mobile. But at the same time WW are developing an original title for PC... Does anyone know why Crawfish fell over? I remember interviewing Cameron Sheppard for an Age article back in 2001 and he had around 40 staff (incl contractors) on the books and a bright future? Interested to know... Cheers for a great site Souri!

Hey Tim, about time you've graced us with your presence here. [;)]
I've read a few articles on why Crawfish closed down, but I think [url="http://n-philes.com/php/epfafzkvzukefylpfvak.php"]this article summed[/url] it up pretty well..

quote:The big reason for them closing is probably because they grew too fast and ended too fast. If you?re a developer, your games are not selling well and the publisher is running out of money; do not expect to receive your money immediately, which was most likely one reason of Crawfish?s failures. Crawfish Interactive was simply releasing too many GBA games and some companies publishing them didn?t have the money to pay them, so Crawfish Interactive just ran out of money to pay their staff.

They had a lot of titles that didn't sell as well as they expected, basically. I wonder what Cameron Sheppard is up to now. He used to a Melbourne House guy, didn't he?

Cam is hiding within the inner sanctums of Climax Brighton right now...UK...I hope his dreams of a new Melbourne studio are realised some day...god knows he could do with the break!
bless him..(an old friend from way back)

Thanks for the article link Souri, interesting read, cheers. The local industry seems tame by comparison! I'd be interested to see if Cameron would set up back in Melbourne, his experiences would definitely add to the industry in Australia.

Sometimes you wonder how anyone makes any money in this crazy industry.

Scott.

Hello! Just came across this site and the chat about me, Crawfish, etc. Thanks for the kind words! As far as Climax goes, I'm no longer working there - I'm actually considering a few options, which you'll hear about soon I think. I'm still in London. Would be good to catch up with some of you too...

Cam

ooOOOOoooo, enjoy @:-D

Ahh.. to play an online game without any form of cheating. That would be nice. [:)].. Cheaters seem to be ruining Battlefield 1942/Desert Combat at the moment..

souri: imagine counterstrike without cheating! there would only be about 4 real players online lol. Good way of getting rid of 13 yr old leet speaking twats too.

If there were no wallhacking, aimbots, or any other cheats whatsoever, Counterstrike will still suck. No one plays as a team, or even tries to accomplish the map objective (rescue hostages etc).. Oh, and you'll get the occasional idiots who flash grenade you early on in every round.
I remember reading something about how people were ruining online sports games on the Xbox, by just quitting the game before the match is over if they were losing. It doesn't get recorded on the world ranking as a loss, either.. or more unfairly, a win for the opponent. People will always find a way to ruin it for everyone else :)..

games need a electro shock USB port for cheaters lol

Counterstrike is good if played properly. I've played it at lans with others who all want to work in a team, its a hell of a lot of fun like that! Counterstrike with the general online population however, is nothing to be excited about.

There needs to be some kind of gamer code of conduct like the honour system or something :) Then we can dis all these loser 13 y.o. twats with no honour and treat them as outcasts :)

Take Grand Prix Legends though. Huge sim community and the "GPL Rank" which is like the measurement of your penis size. You could easily edit the file that you submit to have some good times in there and you could be the number ten player in the world no problemo, but no one does that, even though they could then gloat about being heaps good. If you wanted to you could easily edit replays as well and then submit the worlds best times and become the number one player with a bit of work....but still no one does that either...wierd?

I think that has to do with the type of game GPL is. A racing sim is less likely to be picked up by a 13 yr old loser and played online. They can be very hard to play, and as a result they probably never get past a few hours worth of playing if they pick it up. They will be more attracted to a hardcore kill kill kill FPS or a NFS type game with about 200 cars that is easier to play. I don't think they'd consider a game like GPL to be cool enough for them! :D

Actually i have to say my only reasonable thoughts about online console gaming is how it's going to destroy little kids school productivity :)

I'm interested to see how sony expect to compete with x-box on this ground because Microsoft could easily make online games with both x-box and pc gamers in the same world which means they'll probably have a much larger consumer base than sony would. I guess it depends how much spare cash they've got.

I'm still a little bitter about online gaming, because with only a 33.6kbit telephone exchange where I live, the throughput is crap (and lag is always quite bad as well) and I can't even get broadband unless I pay a few hundred per month for a satellite. It was nigh on impossible to play Quake online when getting 400ms lag on a good day. That I ever got into the top three in a round was definitely a case of fluke or crap playing on everyone else's part!!!

LANs I think are a far more social experience, online gaming (esp. in the case of real time games) is (to me) a much more neutered experience.
It's the same with consoles...going to a 'mate's house and playing games together is way more fun than playing some nameless jack-arse online. It's what makes console multi-player gaming an attractive concept. Massively multiplayer on the other hand is pretty much the same no matter what platform.
My $0.02.

As a side note, there are a few young'uns out there that play GPL, and they are irritatingly fast :)

So when is the adaptor due out anyways? And do you know if there bundling it with SOCOM or another online title? If not i think it would be a good idea to do so because there is nothing worse than getting a toy without the batteries.

Only problem is that courses change from year to year due to structure change and staff turn over. Qantm for instance, I think that no student from the last 3 years would have had the same experience there. Hell the entire stucture changed from 2001/2002 to 2002 intakes.

Pantmonger

Academy of Interactive Entertainment diploma 2.

Mmk, You spend a year working on a game demo.. Tutorials were mostly based around areas like rigging your character, and using the exporter.

So in terms of tutes in regard to modelling/texturing/animating, we didn't receive any, though this wasn't a problem as getting 1 on 1 time with the tutor is an easy thing to do.

Lack of tutorials in these areas was a bit dissapointing, it meant we were left to expand our skills on our own.. Texturing was an area that suffered in general I believe.. As the expected norm (accurate lighting, good balance of colours etc) was pretty much ignored in favour of copy+paste textures.. I think this was because we didn't know better :P

This isn't a major thing, as the tutors were always on hand to provide excellent assistance.

Working in a team environment was prehaps the biggest learning experience.. There were many disagreements in some areas of game development, and occasionally, constructive criticism was opened up into broad sledging.

The positives were much better though.. We managed to bounce around alot of good ideas, and despite occasional arguements, just about everyone put their heads down and got into it.
Everyone would share what they've learned, in regards to the art side of things (can't really speak for programmers) which meant that everyone had improved much more than they would have on their own.

Another positive was the chance for students to win a $10k sony scholarship.. You had to put a lot of work in for it, but its a good prize. (2 weeks in london working with sony)

Lastly!! The course gives you a chance to show your game off at the AGDC. We showed our game (hail) off alot, and we ended up getting ripped off for the best unsigned game!! (word on the street is that hail was disallowed for the number of consecutive votes we received :P). Honestly though, I think melody mars deserved it more, theres was a better concept.

If you do this course, I highly recommend on focussing on texturing in your own time. Modelling and animating are fairly well covered.

*edit* I can't say for certain, but I have a feeling the course may have been downscaled a bit now that there is two courses instead of the one.

Questions?

I'm just gonna put in a short word for the dip2 game dev course at AIE this year.

This is mainly from a programming perspective btw.
In the second year their isn't really any formal learning, but what you do learn, is team-work, working any a medium sized group (6 programmers, 13 artists), and working on a reasonably large project (large compared to what most of the students have done before). So most of the "learning" in 2nd year is really the experience you are getting in a work environment, which is really invaluable. You also learn a lot about various tools etc. that you have to work with as a by-product of working in this environement. For instance, i've learned a lot about the auran JET engine, which is an obvious one, but there are also aspects of C++ i've learned, or reinforced, i've learned use of CVS, and some other technical things. I've even learned a few things about 3dsmax, and before the course i'd never even opened the program :)
I can't really compare to last years dip2 group (since i wasn't there :) ), but from what i've seen, the artists do get some level of direct teaching from the graphics tutor, usually on small things/tricks of using 3dsmax, or refreshers on how to do certain things. Also we have a very competent lead artist, and i think his work has raised the bar of what is expected from the artists, especially in the area of texture art this year.
I can't say anything about the 1st year of the diploma because i didn't do it, but if you have experience programming, but are finding it difficult to get into the industry due to lack of experience, i think the 2nd year of the AIE diploma is definately a good way to get that experience, and hell, i'm having a lot of fun doing it :).
CYer, Blitz

I'm a student at QANTM doing a diploma of screen. I've heard alot of bad thing about QANTM by students that were studying there in the previous years. I think QANTM is getting better every year and will keep on improving. In my opinion it's a good course and you can get alot out of it, but it's all up to the student willing to put in the effort. It's enjoyable and the tutors are helpful.

Poison_the_Well: Thanks for thinking wer're helpful tutors, its great when students like yourself are enthusiastic, keep it up man.[:)]

come on! theres gotta b more tings to say bout de aussie game skools.

Well I can't say that I'm in a specific game dev course, I'm just doing a straight Bachelor of IT at QUT in Brisbane. If you are looking to do game programming I'd still think that a normal IT course majoring in Software Dev would be the best way to go, unless you were absolutely certain you would get a spot in the industry.

On top of your normal Software Dev subjects, there are a few new electives up here. Graphics, which focuses on 3d engines, and Software Dev for Game Design, which I think advances on the graphics and also covers AI.

There is a double degree here at QUT which crosses IT with Multimedia, and is apparently made to focus on game design. It contains all your core programming subjects, as well as the Graphics and Game Design ones, plus covers Web Design, 3D Animation, Music and Sound, Media Design, etc... Plus there is a major project in the last year and work experience too.

It sounds like a pretty good course if you want to cover all those aspects of electronic media. I'm going to try and get into it at the end of the year.

If you were looking to do coding I'd reccommend an IT course over a games course, simply because you would be focussing on a broad area of Software Development, not just specialising in game design. This would help you to be more employable in areas outside of game dev. Its not exactly the easiest industry to get into, and you want to have a backup plan :)

i'm considering joining, what sort of things do you get already when you are a member?

quote:I'm not really sure what I should put into a portfolio to apply for a diploma, it would be nice if someone gave me an example or describe it.

One word, Range. You need to show that you can draw a range of things. People (both genders) quiet and in action. Vechicles, buildngs landscapes and animals etc.

But that being said, a lot of Uni and TAFE places demand specific folios.
For example, when I was at QCA my foilo requirment for entry was.

A scene with full outdoor background.
An original character draw in 4 poses, 2 of which must be action.
Chose one of the action poses and draw it from 4 different angles.
Draw a 6 heads with different facial expressions.
Add 4 other images of your choice.
Do not include anime of superhero style art or characters.

So I recomend that you look into the place you want to study to find out if they have any requirments.

Oh and a lot of TAFE's have the cert courses you are looking for. Look in the QTAC handbook when it comes out again.

Pantmonger

The old qtac book had mostly university courses listed, very little about TAFE, especially for fine arts.

Thanks for the response.

Does this count as a facial expression?
http://www.uchiha.net/misc/expression.jpg

http://www.southbank.tafe.net/course/DOM/CNART040-1.htm

Does anyone have an opinion on this short course? Do you think it will get me or anyone else somewhere?

Hopefully someone can give you a better opinion than mine, but I've done a 2 year graphic design course which is somewhat similar to the course you linked to - a VERY mixed bag of subjects.. the course you listed has photography, 3d, music, video, animation, image editing, etc...along with painting, illustration, drawing... I wonder how much would you really get to learn in just 20 weeks, though. We barely touched the surface of our subjects in 2 years!
I guess this course is useful if you're not quite sure what you want to get into - it'll give you a taste of everything, and you can find out which area you like best to concentrate on for further study.. but if you want to get better at drawing, painting etc, I reckon you should look around and see what other options are available to you. Just my opinion, of course.. :)

Oh - just re-read your posts.. if it helps you get into Uni, then go for it.. ;) (I'm not sure how all that works though, sorry.)

Sounds like that course is a bad idea then, not worth it for a certificate 2 huh? I have to spend 2 hours to get there each time since I live in south Brisbane and that's at Morningside. Maybe I should spend the money on text books and programs instead. Hopefully next year there are more courses and more places. Why do they have to put the OP up to 6 or 7 for fine arts, it's just insane.

OP's are a pain in the arse. Right now I am in my second year of IT at QUT, but I want to change to a double degree - IT and Multimedia, also at QUT. Even though I have almost completed all of the IT part of that double degree, they say I still have to apply through QTAC. They won't let me swap over even though I am already studying the IT side of it. Which makes it annoying because the OP cutoff was a 4 in the year I applied for it (I got a 5) and it was 5 last year, so I'm going to have to really keep my GPA up if I have any chance of getting in. Hope you find a course that you like!

What sort of career are you looking to get into, Leviron?

Just some kind of art related job. I prefer to do something with marketing. I'm not sure on what they call that position.
Just a job where I can use my skills since I?m an idea person with natural leadership qualities but at the moment I?m not sure what I should do.

Sounds like a graphic design career to me.. [;)] A graphic design course should be a good step in that direction.

Leviron: Maybe post production for film/TV, or advertising would suit you, they need you to be both intellectually and creatively geared and they are both challenging and interesting fields. Just a thought.

learn to say 'no'? though that can damage you liklyhood of keeping job...

Yeah, keeping my job is whats keeping me back,
Yo Sal, put some more frickin' cheese on this pizza!!!

plus we aren't getting paid for overtime, beat that with a bat!
Can I have this pizza half-price? it is a bit cold and forty minutes late!

I'll take your job if you don't want it? :P

Don't mean to sound harsh but isn't that something you realised about the games industry before you applied, I'm expecting to live there when I finally get in, damn I'm looking forward to it.

If it is a major worry to you, which it seems it is then compensation for extended overtime should be something you and members of you're team could bring up as a group, less chance of reprisals.

Bite Me - Just Chill man, alright? Its gonna be over soon, either the Publisher will dump it or you'll go insane and kill everybody there...

Either way... ;-) :-P

Yes, it will be over soon... and then begins the next project. *EVIL LAUGH*

Scott.

Not everyone wants to work absurd hours for months on end. Stress, burning out, health concerns are an issue here, I'm sure.. any dream job can turn into something you hate after a while under those conditions - especially if you're not fairly compensated for it. To say that you have to "put up with it, it's part of the package" is pretty harsh - and perhaps is just letting sloppy management off easy (bad management of projects? unachievable development goals?). It's pretty unfair for employees to bear the brunt of it. I do expect some crunchtime to happen (I'm sure there are so many variables when it comes to making games, it's bound to happen), but 10 months sounds pretty excessive.

I wouldn't mind putting in 1 or 2 hours overtime for each day a week if on friday we could have a whicked lan at the company's place. That would kinda be compensation for the overtime somewhat.

And tickets and travel to the adgc are also some other compensation that I would dig.

I have a pretty straightforward philosphy, if I don't enjoy the work, then **** it. Sure there may *not* be a heap of jobs out there, but I would rather be self-employed/bum than be self-tortured.

well, i was serious about learning to say 'no',

'no' you can not have this feature in untill we get this working,
'no', if you want this feature, we can't do this other thing
'no' you can't change your mind once i have implemented something
'no' i'm not making changes till i have reached my deadlines you have set...

(bitter and jaded? moi?)

david - those are some good points... and really a good software project manager should be able to balance the three "values" of development, resources, time, features (from Game Architecture and Design).

I guess saying "no", especially as a novice / entry-level person is important.

Saying no is an important skill to cultivate. Just because you are now working in the 'fun' game industry does not mean that the usual employment rules go out the window. Remember unpaid overtime is a request, you have the right to say no. If they fire you over that, you also have the right to a wrongful dismissal trial.

Don't get me wrong the occasional overtime is to be expected, and a bit of a block of it at crunch time. But when it happens all the time, thats not the industry, thats and excuse for exploitation. If enough people let it happen it will continue to happen. But if enough people challenge it... Maybe its time our industry got some union action?

Pantmonger

Pantmonger

I'd also like to give a slight word of caution - there's a likely chance that those who you work for could be roaming here too, so if you feel like venting on something happening at work, please don't post details that might give away who you are, or where you work etc. It's a relatively small industry, so you wouldn't want to tarnish your name or chances on future employment. That goes for comments on educational places as well.
I'm not restricting what you can write here - just be careful on what you write. (Heck, register under a new nick with no details if you like, if you want to make anonymous comment).

I think this is something you need to bring up with your employer Bite Me.

Some degree of crunch time is to be expected.. That level of unpaid overtime is unreasonable.. You're obviously frustrated with it, and it definately can't be good for your health being pushed so hard..

If its been like this for 10 months, steps should have been taken to improve the workload.

Fat Baby [?]

http://www.fatbabies.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2527&highlight=easter

quote:Originally posted by Souri

Not everyone wants to work absurd hours for months on end. Stress, burning out, health concerns are an issue here, I'm sure.. any dream job can turn into something you hate after a while under those conditions - especially if you're not fairly compensated for it. To say that you have to "put up with it, it's part of the package" is pretty harsh - and perhaps is just letting sloppy management off easy (bad management of projects? unachievable development goals?). It's pretty unfair for employees to bear the brunt of it. I do expect some crunchtime to happen (I'm sure there are so many variables when it comes to making games, it's bound to happen), but 10 months sounds pretty excessive.

Too true. Im not in the industry, but a jobs a job. Just because its more interesting than ur usual, it is still privy to the same conditions. I'm with souri on this one.

My friend told me how he did 7 days a week for 3 months at a game dev. company in Melbourne. He said that after a while you just don't want to talk to anyone, or ask anyone what they've been up to... especially since they've been at work with you every damn day anyway [:)]

On average in the past 4 weeks I've done at least 2-3 hrs overtime a night and several saturdays and some work from home.
I don't find it a problem, I do it to help my team, in this industry if you all sit back and do nothing during deadline then the project might flop and you are all out of work.

Its mainly self imposed but I would have no problem if my superiors needed me to stay back as long as its not expected everday and for no praise/reward.

I say if you don't like doing any overtime your in the wrong industry, hell I love working late it means I get to make games even more!!

I don't mind the hours, i just wish my brain would stop telling me to play computer games (playing games does not increace the amount of time to get work done in) arggh.

I agree with Malus, overtime is what the industry is all about, and when you enjoy what you do, overtime isnt a problem. Owners and bosses appreciate to no end when employees stay to do overtime, and don't forget the rewards of finishing a project far out weighs the pain gone through to get there..

If things were planned better there would be less need for that expectation of overtime (as already stated).

Also, people continue to say that overtime is what the industry is about. So what happens to a person who has commitments outside of work (such as family etc) that can't afford to spend 10 hours a day at work. Do you brush that person off because they are not willing to work twice as hard for no extra pay?

Companies that expect you to work overtime from the start have bad managment practices and should be looked at twice. There is such a thing as quality of life, peace of mind, and taking breaks.

This industry is about creating an immerseive, fun, and unique form of entertainment the industry IS NOT about overtime. It's companies and people who let that drive their lives that make it about that.

I agree with Jacana on this one, the industry shouldn't be about doing overtime to finish a game, well not all the time anyways, before milestones it might be necessary just for a week or so.

However having said that, if you're a 20 something male, with little family life, no girlfriend, etc, then you might as well stay there, becuase you do what you enjoy, you get to be around friends and people that enjoy the same sort of thing, and you're creating something "cool".

Marty
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10 months is nothing When I was working at Remedy doing level design for Max Payne, I did 7 days a week for 3 years. A few of the other guys were at the office everyday also. We did ridiculous hours (slept at the office etc)

Never even considered the concept of overtime pay (I didnt even read my paycheques) because everyone knew we were working on something special.

2 or 3 days per year I would 'reward' myself and take a full day off (on my Birthday for example)

Was all worth it in the end *collapses*

Marty Howe

-ah sounds like heaven to me.... i spend stupid amount of time coding any way because its so fun!

Souri
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My friend told me how he did 7 days a week for 3 months at a game dev. company in Melbourne. He said that after a while you just don't want to talk to anyone, or ask anyone what they've been up to... especially since they've been at work with you every damn day anyway

- im like that already ;p

ohoohohoh codathon? >-) sw33t

Haha, don't even get me started on how wrong Overtime is!

A job is a job, is a job. Sure in games, you get to work with some of the brightest, most creative people around and usually the environment is more "organic," I would trade it all to be assured an 8 hour day, 5 days a week and no more. Life is meant to be lived and living it doesn't mean sitting on your butt in an office, not seeing the light of day for 6 months or longer.

The issue though is there is absolutely no need to crunch. Call it what you will, bad management, underestimating the requirements, learning curve, whatever. The truth is, "We are making games people!" We're not saving the world, there's no need to sacrifice our lives, our friendships, our lovers for what? Electrons.

Let us take the time and make the game right! The almighty dollar shouldn't drive our creative juices, all the almighty dollar does is dry them up! That's it, if I ever win the lotto, I'm opening a Gaming Comune where games will take however long they take to make. Where your wives/husbands and children will actually know who their parents are. Where you have time to explore other things/ideas in the evening! Oh yes, this place will be great! And I promise you this, the games that would come out of this place will be good, solid, bugfree! They WILL BE DONE RIGHT!

quote:Originally posted by DaMunkee

The truth is, "We are making games people!" We're not saving the world...

haha, very nice.

cheers

Who sets milestones anyway? Publishers or the developers themselves? Is it part of the design proposal?

I believe both the publishers and developers have a hand in the milestones, but the end date is usually set in stone and the milestones are made to show what the publishers will be paying each part payment for. So they are pretty much dictated by the completion date.

The issue of overtime has been quietly debated for many years and will go on as long as there is a games industry. I think the bottom line is that most people in the industry are paid a salary to do a job, with the salary consisting of a yearly figure plus whatever bonuses. If you need to work overtime to do the job then you either need to manage your time better, or just do it and hope that your effort is rewarded later by putting out a better game or by your employer in your next pay review. I've had my fair share of all-nighters and weeks working to midnight every night, usually being rewarded by a pizza and Coke, or a day off in-lieu. With a wife and 5 kids it's not the ideal way of life, but I love the work I do and wouldn't leave this industry in a hurry. Having said that, though, I've worked past 9pm maybe only once or twice in the last few years and can't even remember how long it's been since I did my last all-nighter. Being older and (maybe) a little wiser I've worked out what I need to do to get my projects out the door on time while working as little overtime as possible.

Jacana is right. If things are planned better there is less need for that expectation of overtime.

Maybe there's no time being allocated for mistakes that occur - you know, a fix up period? Any plan should allow time for stuff that goes wrong.

From what I understood part of the way games companies in Aust have been getting contracts is by cheaper labour and shorter dev cycles. So if you tell a publisher we'll get this game out in 14 months and they pick you up then you both set the milestones for 14 months.

I think at that stage by undercutting dev time the mistake and fix-up period have been killed because the company wants the contract.

Me109: Just to clear something up, I don't beleive this industry is all about overtime far from it I just believe it is sometimes an unavoidable nessesity in certain cases due to the nature of the industry.

Overtime is a generally down to bad management etc and should be something that is avoided, if possible.

What I was trying to get at is that the games industry is not like most industries, it has a more fluid dev cycle, things change and they change regulary so its hard (but not impossible)to keep a formulated rigged plan of attack and because of this the need for some overtime is going to happen.
Generally this should probably happen around crunch time when everything is being tested, finalised and polished etc.

If you are doing overtime from the get go something is dreadfully wrong with the attack plan or management and you have the right to kick up a stick or just plainly say no.

No one should be forced to do free work but in this industry sometimes it means the difference between a company succeeding in a titles release and half the company getting the chop, which would you prefer?

i meant shawn eustace =p

Shawn was at Evolution but don't know what hes up to now.

does anyone have contact info for either of these guys?

Don't think anyone has.. :( You might wanna try sending of an email to two of the ex-evolution guys a few threads down, if you haven't already.. http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=464

Hey Gaffer!!!

Shawn and myself will be working for Pandemic Studios, starting on the 12th of May.

I think Sean Hammond is going overseas to work???

hey congrats, well i was just wanting to talk to sean to see if he was interested in applying for a position at irrational games, but if he's going overseas then i guess thats not going to work out, good luck at pandemic, seems most ex-auran end up in that place, eventually... heheh ;)

cheerio

TV is going well, we've actually been in development for quite some time now, and we are way past the concept art stage :)

my job then is to basically do the movement system (run, jetpack, ski etc.), to develop the movement animation system to go along with this and code the vehicles, ragdoll physics etc, handle physics for objects blowing up going into fragments (like they did in FF, just better ;))

so far, i've completely rewritten the movement physics system in unreal, all collision response, detection and dynamics code for characters is CUSTOM DESIGNED for tribes and is first pass complete

i'm also doing some R&D on a new outdoor terrain occlusion algorithm for tribes, which should speed up outdoor terrain rendering considerably

cheers!

Glenn "Gaffer" Fiedler
Senior Programmer, Irrational Games.

I've always wondered what role the Australian studio had with the whole of Irrational Games.. When Irrational does a title, do they split certain areas of work to each studio, or is it all entirely collaborated with all three studios? What kind of stuff did the Canberra studio do for Freedom Force, and The Lost? ** (Actually, don't answer this. I was gonna let Jonathon Chey answer it in my interview questions (which I should have sent him months ago but was too darn lazy to finish it))
Annnnyways, looking forward to seeing Tribes: Vengeance, although the FPS genre at the moment sure is experiencing somewhat of a boost in quality/expectations now! Tribes is going the single player route this time, isn't it?
So that's why you were studying physics for a while ago [;)].. Deus Ex 2, and Half Life 2 are using Havoc for their physics (which is having a big role in some of their ingame puzzles).. What do you think of Havok? Gonna try and match it? [:)]

We're actually using two physics systems, one a custom one developed by me for character movement, and mathengine karma to do the vehicles, ragdolls, objects with joints and hinges etc.

about the two offices, freedom force art and code was done by australian team, sound by eric brosius in boston, story done by ken levine in boston.

the lost is done primarily by the boston team, with some little bits of help from au afaik (some art assets i think?), but pretty much boston's game

tribes is being done by the australian team, with sound by eric brosius and story by ken - ie. same deal as FF, we'll do the art, design and code

note that we also collaborate and help each other out quite a lot, and we use perforce (www.perforce.com) so that people at each office have access to all art, design and code assets

I'm not sure if developers do worry about marketing.. I think thats up to the publishers..

Developers make games, publishers sell them.

I could be wrong, but I think thats how it works. Maybe someone else can help clarify.

I'm sure that's the way it generally goes, although the marketing on teh developers side is more like designer diaries, technology demos etc, in the way that they market their game to both the publisher and consumer public. But I doubt that they take out ads and everythig to do that, more like just email, talk, and gossip kinda stuff.

I would hazard a guess that it's all managed by the publisher side of things. They'd tell the developer when to have a demo ready by, when a tech demo should be out etc etc.

you bet developers care about the marketing, its usually the crux of how successful a game is, and most of it is entirely based on the perception, sales estimations, quarterly expectations and target audience as seen throught the glass ball held in the publishers hands....scary sheeet! The best marketing is what money can't buy, - WORD OF MOUTH - but again, this can be influenced by hype, either deserved interest or manufactured by the publisher/related companies.

Good stuff.. I'll put them on the developer list, and the job ad as a news item too..

They are also looking for a flash animator for 3 month contract

from what I heard about it, that wasn't really a "game development" course... more an artsy version of IT.

although it would be closer to games than other degrees, it's not great if you want to be a programmer (at which point i lost interest)... although if your goes is to live as a developer or artist it might be useful.

but I'm no expert on such things, I took the way of the code-monkey (waves around his katana that acts as a 128gb usb drive)

Artsy version of IT... Excellent

I prefer art over programming.

Micro Forte are going to be there. I think they all share the same booth too.

MF will be there with Bigworld, but I'm not sure if they've got a booth or if they're doing their thing behind closed doors.

I know Ratbag are going to be at E3, but I didn't see them on the official booth list so I think they'll be doing their business beind closed doors.

We'll (Bullant Studios) be sending a few people.

Press release from GDAA:

AUSTRALIA GAMES INDUSTRY TO RAISE PROFILE AS MAJOR
PLAYER IN GAMES DEVELOPMENT; BIGGEST PRESENCE
EVER AT E3 2003

Contact: Doug Mealy
dmealy@om-pr.com

SYDNEY, AUSTRALIA ? APRIL 11, 2003 -- After years of quietly building its game development industry, the Australians are embarking on an aggressive campaign to raise their profile in the global games community as a proven creative and technology force in the industry. The Game Developer?s Association of Australia (GDAA at www.gdaa.com.au), in conjunction with the Australian Trade Commission, is launching this new awareness campaign by making its biggest-ever presence at E3 in Los Angeles in May.

The Technology Australia: Games Downunder exhibit is in Booth #436 in the South Hall of the Los Angeles Convention Center, next to Crave Entertainment, SquareSoft, and Wanadoo.

The Australian games industry is working together to reach two goals: to raise awareness of their long-established track record of game development and creation of new technologies; and that broadband has affirmed that distance and geography are no longer relevant criteria in the selection of business partners.

?We want the industry to realize on a broader scale that we?ve been competing successfully on the world stage for years. Our companies ?over deliver,? providing a 20-30% better experience and world-class content compared with US and UK studios, according to actual development projects done in Australia,? says Evelyn Richardson, Executive Director of the GDAA. ?And we hope people who are at E3 will visit us to get a firsthand look at what we?ve created.?

Australian developers participating in the exhibit include Auran Games (www.auranjet.com), Bigworld (www.bigworldgames.com), Bullant Studios (www.bullantstudios.com), Krome Studios (www.kromestudios.com), Ratbag (www.ratbaggames.com), Blue Tongue (www.bluetongue.com), and Tantalus Interactive (www.tantalus.com.au).

?In addition to game developers, several other game service companies from Australia will be attending the E3 conference and meeting with potential business partners throughout the show,? says Michelle Pflaum, Business Development Manager, Australian Trade Commission in San Francisco.

E3, which is open to the industry and not to the public, runs May 14-16, 2003.

For more information, contact Evelyn Richardson at evelynrichardson@gdaa.com.au. Media only inquiries can be emailed to Doug Mealy, Online Marketing and Public Relations, at dmealy@om-pr.com.

best of luck Bull-Ants,
I think the most saleable point you can make right now to the publishers is our "value for money". We're the new asian workforce,
ride-me-like-a-dog, me love you long time[:p]

We never sell ourselves as being cheap, no Australian company ever should, to do so would be the death of us all.

The budget should be the same as if it is a US/UK development, but the exchange rate allows for flexibility and reduction of risk (you can hire more people for one thing).

Cheers,

Ross.

there are a number of developers going under the GDAA banner.
check out http://www.gdaa.asn.au/e3australia/index.html
we are sending along a company DVD to show.

Cheers,
Ross

Let's hope that after this expedition to E3 that the companies return with many more jobs for us Sumeans :-)

Hey Souri,

Ya Know I have heard from several different sources now the exact same thing, However I think from everything i have heard that something big did go down. But wether evolution went or not is still unanswered.
I have a mate who has friends inside Evolution and he won't say. Though he did talk to them last night.
The impression I got was that a large percentage moved to THQ. Wether this is true or not is unknown.
Though dude trust nothing yet as the rumours seem to be rampant right now.... though the saying where there's smoke theres fire does come to mind...

0xBaaDf00d
---------------------------------------
The world Was enough yesterday!

Vague enough for you :)

I've got some confirmation from other sources as well that something is definately up, but I guess we should wait for a press release from Evolution Games when they're ready..
It would be shame though. They did a decent job of Rocket Power: Beach Bandits, and the concepts they had (Spotswood & Eric, Europa) looked very interesting..

I got the chance to meet some of the dev team and they are a great bunch of guys, hope it all works out for the best for them.

Its a shame they couldn't fund it to keep it going. A staff member from evolution gave Qantm a lecture about a month ago and he said they have 24 staff and they sold 300,000 copys of their last game.

It must be difficult when your publisher is setting up a dev studio of its own next door so to speak...

Scott.

I've got confirmation that Evolution Games have indeed closed their doors..

Very sad news, Evolution were a very good company with good product and great people.

As CEO Justin Green was an excellent spokesman for the industry, and was particularily good for Qld where most industry and gov't initiatives can be attributed to his handiwork in some way.

I understand that most of the staff have already found employment elsewhere.

Cheers,

Ross.

quote:Originally posted by Poison_the_Well

Its a shame they couldn't fund it to keep it going. A staff member from evolution gave Qantm a lecture about a month ago and he said they have 24 staff and they sold 300,000 copys of their last game.

300,000 copies is a pretty respectable ammount.. I wonder what could have happened..

Out of that 300,000 how much money do the devs get out of it? Seems to me like the publisher would hog all the profits

Yes evolution has cease operations.

I was the Senior Character artist at evolutiongames.

Our investor decide to call it quits and the company became redundant.

Very sad indeed, I'm still trying to recover.

But life goes on...

Yup, I can confirm.
I was Senior Character artist there as well.
As far as I know, only one guy there got a new job, the rest is still wanderring the streets.
How's it going my fellow senior friend?
What you've been up to?
I guess I'll see you tomorrow at the last supper, hey?

Cheers

I hear Justin's gone or going to Melbourne, what are the rest of you planning? Would be a pity for brisbane to lose some good talent because of this shitty news. I can't believe only one of you has found a job, what hope do us mere mortals have. [:(]
Anyway sorry to hear the bad news and good luck with everything hey.

It will be a sad day for the QLD industry, as Justin was pretty much the ambassador for QLD Gamedev. I wonder who will step up to champion the cause in his place.

:(

Scott.

That's just f@#$ed, but I guess it's something we all have to live with :/

That's business, I guess the investor pulled out because of the uncertain economy.

Oh well. :~(

NOOOOOoooooo!

Hope all the crew get back into the industry soon. The giggling sperm shall be missed. @;-)

its a sorry state our games industry is in.
but have hope im sure a great change is coming our way.
r.i.p evolution games

nannoo nannoo

It's on the front page of the site ( see also http://www.sumea.com.au/snews.asp?news=525 ), but it's worth noting that Tim Richards has a write up with links at www.gamesnews.com.au ..

quote:Opinion: If the reports of Evolution Games closing its doors are true, then this is important news for the industry as it is very unexpected. Only two weeks ago the CEO Justin Green was in good form, commenting to GameNews.com.au editor Tim Richards that the studios most recent title, Rocket Power:Beach Bandits, published by THQ, continued to show very strong sales. If the move by THQ to Queensland has brought about a change in circumstances for Evolution Games, this needs to be explored by the industry. If the change has been negative, then questions must be raised as to how robust the Australian game development industry actually is in the face of overseas interests taking a broader foothold in the local industry, and what else must be done to prepare the Australian game industry for further international success? By Tim Richards [6 April 2003]

bugger.. 1 less place to get a job at :|

And an assload of competition [:D]

Scott.

Yeah, well let's hope another biz starts up - I'm willing to start up something with some of the Ex-Evolution employees!!

Indeed it is an interesting state of the industry but such is the way of business.
It is indeed a heavy blow to Qld with the loss of Justin, however life goes on guys.
We can not complain about the industry up here we just had Creative assembly and Now THQ moving in to brisbane to set up development studios, well shock horror one down two up, i think we call this growth.
Dont take my synasism the wrong way I respect Justin and Evolution, Shawn and the other guys there, they did a bang up job I am looking forward to hearing all their success stories in the weeks to come when they all get relocated into different positions at other development studios.

My best wishs go out to all of you until that time.

0xBaaDf00d
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I see you schwartz is as big as mine.

Its really good to hear some of the guys from evolution have scored gigs already, it would be terrible to be in their position but I understand the feelings strik3r and reznor have also. Its hard enough getting in when we aren't competing with experienced people, perseverence and good luck guys.

Actually come to think of it, the jobs they should get wouldn't be junior roles anyway I expect so we aren't really competing lol.

Good luck again guys.

You can read about the Gameboy SP review on gameBiz

http://www.gamebiz.com.au/reviews.php?action=display&id=79

I've been waiting for a backlit GBA, like, forever! [;)] 'Bout time! And a rechargable battery pack too!

Moved your thread to the games industry section.. hopefully you can get some responses here.. There are some great concept artists on this site, so hopefully they can chime in and tell us where they learnt their craft and some advice..

Hey that's great, someone wants to really learn to draw! I applaud you.

I'd say just go do a TAFE / Uni thing on illustration... Take some workshops or something, that'd be one way at going after the Concept art position. Although would be better if you did a degree, since then you could be employed for more than just Concept art (therefore would be a more valuable employee).

And your art skills would be wide and varied, not just "concept" stuff

I agree.. I've read a fair few interviews with some impressive digital artists (concept or 3d), and a lot of them do suggest you do some sort of fine arts course.. get some colour/light theory, human anatomy practise, and some real drawing/painting skills.. It would be a great foundation to your concept art development (or ANY other artistic path you take), and I'm sure would be worth enduring 2 years for.

Thanks heaps for the responses. I guess i will start looking into illustration/fine arts courses. Too bad I waited until 1/4 through the year to discover what I really wanted to do. Oh well...thanks again :)

Infogrammes Melbourne House (I hope that was spelled correctly).

I believe that's the only Australian Publisher / Developer.

Manaccom (http://www.manac.com.au) is still going. They are in MiltonBrisbane too. Kinda old school... I remember them publishing shareware back when that was king.

Scott.

Do Red Ant publish games or simply a game developer?

I'm pretty sure they're a publisher.

Scott.

I thought Red Ant was a design studio (web, multimedia etc)..

The Red Ant I'm thinking of releases old and budget titles in those small plastic cases. *has one here* www.red-ant.com.au is them.

Scott.

Spectrum Pacific Publishing http://www.spectrumpacific.com.au

Not actually lecturing, just working as a lab supervisor.

I will be helping students with questions they have on during labs, mainly game dev and multimedia students so they'll be using max, photoshop, maya, flash, director etc.
I just sorta fell into it, I studied at QANTM and know most of the staff, when the previous tutor got work in production I was contacted about filling his role.
Its not permanent just yet as the previous tutor is on a trial but I'm totally sure he will work out in production, hes damn good at CG, taught me heaps. I'm really looking forward to starting.
Came at a great time too I just moved out!!

nice work malus :)

Congrats dude! Will hafta drop into QANTM and see how the ol' place is doin' @:-)

Hi~

How's QANTM like? I would like to do a course at QANTM. Is the degree course still on hold?

times have changed @ qantm i recieved my scholership after the games course was divided into two streams programming and animation,
ive had many friends go through the previous diploma and from what they have told me it was not good.
i think this in part is due to the fact that most people were good at animation or programming not both.
the animation diploma i did was very rewarding for me, i learnt a lot.
but there were students who did not have a grasp of technology and they did suffer because of this.
my advice would be to get a fundamental knowledge of max, maya and flash before entering.

From what I can tell the split into 2 streams has really helped the course structures, alot of talented students there now who have really got there act together.

I actually think alot of the reason the earlier groups had trouble was because they sat around playing games instead of learning, these new guys seem to have more motivation.

Wow qantm has finally split the programming and art apart.. Bout time they got their act together in that regard...

I apologise for the cynicism, but many ex students I've talked to have had very little positive things to say about the curriculum.

Malus'll turn it around!!

lol god dont put that on my shoulders jesus!!

hahah too late, the burden is yours.

carry it like some.. load.. bearing.. monkey of sorts!

Yes, QANTM split the Animation and Code streams in to two separate courses. I was a part of the first group to undertake the new Code course. It was good last year, but now that they've gotten rid of Christian Schladetsch I'm not sure how good it would be (Christian went against QANTM's idea of teaching JET and tried to teach people how to do things from scratch - which worked for me at least :) )

"Mr Fergason, You have a telephone call, line one. Donna is wondering if you picked up the standard uniform youll be wearing, t-shirt, pants, pitch fork and pointy tail."

[:p]

Hmmm...seems like Qantm is getting better reviews. I'm still very tempted to go there. How's the industry in Brisbane? I've left Brisbane 3 years ago (I'm in Singapore now). And I'm not very much updated. I've got background in 3D Studio Max and Softimage and traditional animation. But lost touch a little. Thinking of AIE or Qantm. Please advise! Thanks!

The industry is growing here in Brisbane but unfortunately not much work, Ive been applying constantly for the last 6-8 months and nothing. I don't think Im that bad, lol, so it has to be a lack of positions.

Hey everyone at QANTM, I'm the sister of Christian Schladetsch, I believe he lectured there last year...I've currently lost track of him, and I'm hoping one of you might be able to give me an idea of where he is, a contact address even? Cheers, thanks for your help guys!

quote:Originally posted by Dilphinus

Hmmm...seems like Qantm is getting better reviews. I'm still very tempted to go there. How's the industry in Brisbane? I've left Brisbane 3 years ago (I'm in Singapore now). And I'm not very much updated. I've got background in 3D Studio Max and Softimage and traditional animation. But lost touch a little. Thinking of AIE or Qantm. Please advise! Thanks!

I'm from Singapore and thinking of applying for the animation course at QANTM.I've got programming experience and i'm a self taught 3D amatuer artist.But i prefer the artistic side of game development hence the decision to go into animation.

Hi Misty,

Christian is currentley working at www.sydac.com.au in Sydney i think according to one of his posts at a qantm ex-students forums.

good luck :)

Christian:

Phone (business): 08 8239 3600
Mobile: 0422670968
Email: christian.schladetsch@sydac.com.au

I think that's right anyway.

I think Christian registered on this forum shortly after that message, and I'm sure he would have contacted her through with the forum email by then, so happy ending for all. [:)]

Dilphinus- don't waste your time. Qantm's promises are nothing more than a pack of lies. It's one place which definitely does NOT deliver. Even nearly a year later they're still ripping off students... a project I was involved with some friends that we displayed at Qantm's "industry" night (what a joke that night was) has been used by Qantm in advertisements for their course without any credit to us, despite the fact that-

a) it was not developed at Qantm
b) nothing was learnt at Qantm that went towards it
c) the game was developed completely from scratch, despite Qantm's implications that it was developed with Auran's "Jet" engine

They have no right to use it in their advertisements at all, let alone claim credit in it's creation. This is irrespective of the fact that both myself and the main programmer DIDN'T EVEN BOTHER COMPLETING THE COURSE, so they can't even honestly claim that it was the work of Qantm graduates. Ask nearly anyone who has studied at Qantm- it is a complete scam. The main strength of the course last year, in the eyes of the few people that actually feel it was worth the money, was a lecturer Christian Schladetch who wasn't even teaching the course Qantm wanted him to teach and was fired as a result. Before you go throwing money away on a place which admittedly looks like a dream course at first, ask around. Don't bother asking current students though. At least not until after the course because no-one appreciates just how badly the course fails to live up to it's promises until it's over. If you have any specific questions I'd be happy to help you out if it means one less person getting ripped off to the tune of over $6,000

in regards to them using your game, you might want to check the student contract
it pretty specifically states that qantm has the right to use any student work for promotion

Exactly what I was going to say Shiva.

I signed it and they used my work.

I'll admit during my time studying there I had no great love for qantm, due to many reasons, from lecturers leaving to the course structure but I'm a big enough man to realise I played a part in my time there and if I didn't gain anything from it then in the end its partially my fault.

I look at that time as a year with like minded people, access to tools I wouldn't have and teachers who tried everything they could to help during a rough time. I also networked my butt off.

I also worked as a tutor at qantm after my studies there and am now in the games industry and even though I credit myself for alot of the progress to get there I will say qantm helped me a great deal, yeah we had issues when we studied there but I can tell you that most of these have been delt with and the courses are much better.

I've found alot of people winging about how qantm ruined there chances, thats ridiculous, you are in control of your own destiny and if you didn't find anything from your time there then its just as much your fault.

One thing I have noticed that I'd like to put across is this, why is it only after they leave that people suddenly become vocal about there issues? Thats not helping anyone, you have a problem then you deal with it, not go sulk and then become bitter after the fact.

As for qantm taking credit for your work well I have no comment on that other than its something you need to take up with them, in private, your only going to get a bucket load of lawyers knocking on your door defaming them on here.

If you have issues with qantm bring it up with them.

Shiva- the key factor here is the definition of "student work". As I understand it, it is to mean work completed by Qantm students, in time spent at Qantm or as part of the course itself. The game Caelestis was developed completely outside of Qantm with no direct relation to the course. They cannot claim the right to use ANY work produced by it's students at any time throughout the duration of their studies. Caelestis was produced purely for fun outside of the course, with the only relation being that it was approved for display at the "industry" night. Even then it was displayed on an Xbox which Qantm doesn't even remotely teach anything about. To claim any credit in it's creation, especially in a promotional context such as their advertisement in PC Powerplay, is nothing short of false and misleading advertisement.

As for Malus...

I haven't once said Qantm "ruined my chances". They just didn't offer any new chances. They promise a lot but don't deliver. I did gain a lot from my time last year. I moved from Sydney to Brisbane to do that course, I met a lot of new people, made some good friends, woke up to the "real world" of paying bills and shit like that, got to experience living in a different city, and I learnt a lot programming-wise in my own time. Just nothing from Qantm, and I am not about to assume blame for that.

I think the reason people only become vocal about their issues after they leave is that they're worried about getting kicked out of the course or simply don't want to make a target of themselves. I voiced my concerns countless times while I was at the course. From as early as the first major assignment (an Asteroids clone), I argued the value in forcing people to work with Christian's proprietary scripting engine "Pi" for the assignment. Most people I spoke to agreed with me, but when I called for names to the student mailing list everyone's demeanor changed to "...you're crazy Ferret, don't make a fuss. I don't want to get into shit". That's pretty much the tone for the entire year. Once it's over and they realise they've gotten nothing out of it anyway, there's nothing holding people back from complaining. So firstly I'm not just complaining after leaving. I made my points throughout the year, and the only person that seemed to listen (surprisingly enough) was Christian, who has since been fired. If you think it's not helping anyone then by all means don't listen, but for those that are considering studying there, I believe it is helpful for them to hear what the course is like from someone who has actually BEEN THERE and been ripped off. I know I wish I'd had the opportunity to speak to people who had already studied at Qantm and listen to their perspective before I made the mistake of going there based on their marketing alone.

Before you sit their on your high horse judging me because I don't sing praise through my arse or blame myself for Qantm's shortcomings, try thinking about your arguments. I have a problem with places like Qantm being able to treat people like shit, get away with it, then suck more people into their grasps. This IS dealing with it, albiet in a far lesser faction than what I'd like to. I have countless issues with Qantm, and I have tried bringing it up with them many times in the past. The bottom line is as long as they're churning over big dollars from what they're doing, they'll keep doing it. If they wish to challenge me legally over defamation, they are more than entitled to do so. Perhaps you should look up the legal definition of defamation before making such claims. To establish a claim of defamation, Qantm would have to prove the following-

1) That the publication was made by me to one other than the defamed (Qantm)

2) That the publication pertains to intentionally false statement(s) or fact(s)

3) That the publication is understood to be intended to harm the reputation of the plaintiff.

While a side-effect may be that Qantm's reputation is harmed, the intention of my posts is for the benefit of those considering studying at Qantm. No matter how they argued the point, they wouldn't be able to prove anything. In the extremely unlikely event that they COULD convince a judge/jury that my posts are purely spiteful, they can in no possible way prove that any of my statements have been intentionally false. Qantm wouldn't even be able to get the case to trial. Thankyou for your concern however. [;)] On the other hand, before now I had no secure grounds for legal action against Qantm. This advertisement just might be enough to tip the scales in my favour. Time will tell I guess.

I see why my friend asked for a refund right away last year.

Let me start by stating, I understand my post came across as a personal attack which I apologise for, it was never meant to be directed soley at you.

Secondly, I have no invested interests in Qantm.

Yes I worked there for a few months and enjoyed my time there but my loyalty was and always will be to the students and staff, not management, I was paid to help people not to be a marketing spokesman.

Im glad you tried to do something about your problems and I hope that you are not being ripped off because that is just plain wrong.

My problem is I constantly read/hear alot of meaningless whinging from past qantm students who I watched sit around doing nothing when they studied there then have the nerve to complain that they were ripped off.

BTW yes I studied at qantm, during one of its worst years, we had countless teachers leaving and alot of course structure changes, if it wasn't for the helpfulness of the other students and the teachers, especially Christian and Steve I probably would have left along with most of the year.

The thing is during the time I was employed as a tutor there I saw alot of this change, it was really good to see qantm had listened and learnt from there mistakes, I try to be open minded about things (although alot will probably disagree no doubt) and seeing a company actively try and change was a great thing and restored alot of my faith in not just qantm but business in general.

I was attempting to say that you should feel free to voice concern but please try and do it with less venom, you will in the end look more like some bitter, immature kid than someone who has actually been wronged.

As for me being wrong about the definition of defaming well I was actually just worried that you may cause yourself some grief.

One last thing, Qantm made mistakes, there is no doubting that.
Some very bad ones, some not so bad, but in the end I believe they have learnt alot from these troubles and in my opinion have redeemed alot (not all) of there past discrepancies, they still have along way to go to fix there reputation and I believe they need to actively do that.

This of course doesn't help those who went through the bad times I know but thats something each person needs to take up with Qantm and probably should if they feel wronged.

In the end I think Qantm is now a good place to learn if and only if you are willing to put in the effort. Most courses are 1 year long or shorter so it is primarily a place to learn the basic to intermediate skills you need, advancing those skills in a year is really up to the individual.

It may not get you that job straight after you graduate but really anyone who believes they will be handed a golden certificate at the end of any course is fooling themselves.

A word to Qantm's management department.
I know alot of you read Sumea posts, please reply to some of these students, there is obviously some bad feelings out there and it doesn't help them, yourselves, your current students or future students if you ignore them, this issue doesn't look like going away fast, if anything I have noticed it growing.

Lets put this to rest hey guys.

Dean

FerretallicA, unfortunately you'll find that practically any game dev studio you end up working for will have a clause in it's employee contract stating that any personal game development undertaken while under their employment will automatically belong to them, even if it's done in your own time at home... Qantm obviously have a similar stipulation.

It's interesting to read your greviences about Qantm, I don't know much about the place other than the odd (sorry to say) negative comment I've heard from time to time including one that my former employer made after returning from a graduation day there... "guy's, don't worry, your jobs are safe" and it wasn't because of any lack of student talent, he just thought a lot more should have been achieved from a graduating class.

So what's the problem... are they teaching stuff that's relivent to getting a job in the industry?

"unfortunately you'll find that practically any game dev studio you end up working for will have a clause in it's employee contract stating that any personal game development undertaken while under their employment will automatically belong to them"
Are you serious? That is insane. Thats like a mechanic having to sign a contract saying if you do any work on you car at home the car becomes property of the garage...well not quite.
I personally wouldn't be comfortable signing a contract that included a clause like that.
CYer, Blitz

quote:Originally posted by Malus

My problem is I constantly read/hear alot of meaningless whinging from past qantm students who I watched sit around doing nothing when they studied there then have the nerve to complain that they were ripped off.

Yup, thats pretty true, I'll even admit to being one of them[xx(].

To start with i was very enthusiastic, when the teachers had to repeat excersises for the slower students i would try and get a head of the class and add something extra to my work or try to learn something new. For a little while I was one of the top students until my enthusiasm ran out. Thats when i started playing games, it started with net games, then moved to normal single player games and then I played LAN (which I had never done before and found very addictive). About that time Jedi Outcast, GTA3, Battlefield 1942 and Mafia were released which made matters worse and the fact that they were easy to get because of Network drives and other students dumping them there didn't help.

There were several reasons for my loss of enthusiasm, but both QANTM and I are to blame. QANTM tried to squeze a 1 year course into 9 months and as such had to cut modules, however we complained and QANTM fixed it, but it cost us our holidays they got cut down to 2 weeks (should have been approx 6-8 weeks). Certain modules cut into our major project time by 2 weeks, definetly QANTMs fault. On a presention day the Head teacher liked to take my computer for the presention (which was in a different room), which meant the next day i had to set up my computer all over again and then find any missing hardware (headphones usually, some i never found). Ofcourse at the end of the day I only have myself to blame, I was Lazy, I played games and I listened to the negative comments of other students. I could go on but i think i've gone to far already.

I should add that the Course i attended was actually in Sydney and that it was a multimedia diploma. Also that QANTM were given a few rooms and offices in a TAFE, not their own facilities. And only one QANTM representative (for 3-4 classes), the rest were industry experts or TAFE teachers.

quote:Originally posted by Blitz

"unfortunately you'll find that practically any game dev studio you end up working for will have a clause in it's employee contract stating that any personal game development undertaken while under their employment will automatically belong to them"
Are you serious? That is insane. Thats like a mechanic having to sign a contract saying if you do any work on you car at home the car becomes property of the garage...well not quite.
I personally wouldn't be comfortable signing a contract that included a clause like that.
CYer, Blitz

It's true alright, if you don't sign you don't work, it's as simple as that. The argument is that you're using technology you've learned at your job.
In fact several years ago a number of staff left their jobs at one of the major Australian game dev studios for this reason... they all had their own little projects going on outside of work and refused to sign a revised employee contract that would effectively give the legal rights to everything they developed over to their employer, even if it's simply an idea.

Red5

There's one major difference above all others between a game development studio and a place like Qantm- you are an EMPLOYEE, and they are paying you to do what they want. In an employer/employee relationship, the employer pretty much has the right to demand whatever they want (within the boundaries of any applicable government regulation, union guidelines etc). If you don't like it, they find someone else. At a place like Qantm, the relationship is more one where you are a client instead of an employee, and you are paying THEM to provide a good or service. If you don't like what they are offering, you find someone else. Unfortunately it is nigh on impossible to judge the capacity for a place like Qantm to deliver without having been there already or spoken to past students. It's similar in a way to advertisements claiming you can earn $3,000/month working hours you choose from home infront of your computer just by visiting www.successbyhappyparadise4u.biz (insert random cheesy URL of your choice). For a few people it just might offer that, but for the majority of people it offers nothing of real value at all other than the experience not to trust that kind of thing again. It also leaves out other requirements for it to work in the one-off cases that it genuinely works.

Anyway I digress. The point is it can't be accepted just because there are employees that impose a similar contractual requirement. It's not to say that they can't have a contract like that, but you can't justify it by saying employees require the same thing. Even in the event that they have such a contract, there are limitations to the extent to which they can excercise their rights to ownership and use material by the (employee || student). I have a lot to say on the matter (obviously) but I will wait until I have obtained a copy of Qantm's student contract as of February 2002 before going off on specific tangents to be sure they apply to the contract.

That should be-

"...to ownership and use of material..."

My apologies to the Grammar Nazis that may be patrolling this forums.

Followed closely behind is the news that EA aren't supporting Xbox Live (and Eidos, but who cares about them anymore [;)])..
Speaking of broadband, I've just read this article on 10 MMPOG Titles To Watch For

http://www.gamerspulse.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=in…

I'm not really into MMORG's, but damn, there sure are some really good MMPOGs and MMORPGs coming out. Some HUGE titles in there. The one I would really, really, really love to play is that EVE-Online: Second Genesis game. It looks exactly like what a Elite 2:Frontier sequel should be. There' are a few pictures I've seen (such as a ship docking from the base of a space station) which just reminds me of Elite..

Wider broadband acceptance, and better broadband options sure would be great in Australia. If Xbox Live doesn't do it then maybe the PS2 adaptor would help push things along..

XBox Live looks promising. The presentation at AGDC 2002 was quite impressive (even though when demoing, all we saw was a lobby as the few games available were in progress at the time).

It looks nice to make games for, and it could do wonders for the broadband bandwagon in Australia with a wider and more general audience found in console gamers demanding what is considered a standard service everywhere else.

Who says Microsoft are the bad guys?

Scott.

I do.

What did they ever do to you?

Scott.

This isn't aimed at anyone in particular but since it came up I just wanted to get this out. [:P]
I really think bagging Microsoft (Bill Gates)is naive and a little trend following, I mean the whole point of being a company is to become if possible the leading market holder in your field, Microsoft have done this, maybe some areas have been a tad unscrupulous but name a company that plays exactly by the rules. Seems to me its cool to bag them so everyone does.

Bill Gates by the way will have donated more money to charity than any other living person before he dies, far from an evil man as everyone likes to think. I've never met the guy and he doesn't need me to defend him but really like reznor said, What has he done to you/me.

Monopolising the market for starters...

I'm not a "Microsoft sux! linux rox0rs!! oMG LOL!!" kinda guy (linux sucks too;)
I have my reasons for disliking Microsoft.

But then again I have my reasons for liking Microsoft.

What a tangled web we weave!

I don't really think that there would be enough people in Australia with broadband and X-Boxes to make the multiplayer games worthwhile. That and I don't either an X-Box nor broadband.

pon = she

But yeah, when she took over last year things became fairly crappy.. Was looking like there wasn't going to be any student concessions, which was a real kick in the teeth.. Luckily that was changed though :P

Hrm, well on our Uni's site it appears that exams *might* finish on the wednesday before the AGDC, therefore perfect timing with thursday for travelling.

Let's hope this stays as it is.

Hi Maitrek, All,

Indeed most games will be either "gold" by then or not going to make it until Q1 the following year. It is likely the only time of year that studios are able to have staff attend.

The problem in setting the dates is taking into consideration local and international interests. It's hard enough to get international speakers to travel in these times, so we need to at least make sure that we don't clash with anything in Europe or the US. There is Comdex in the US early November and then the Thanksgiving day (probably the US's biggest holiday) and also a "game:on" event in France.

I know Pon takes all feedback seriously, so if you have any ideas for improvement send them along.

BTW: There are going to be a number of new initiatives introduced this year, including a "Careers Market" which should interest a lot of people here. http://www.agdc.com.au/expo/expo_careers_market.php

Cheers,

Ross.

Yeah it looks like my exam period *might* finish on wed 19th Nov as well. I'm kinda glad usyd pushed forward the end of semester a week now.

Yeah I'm slightly aware there is alot of co-ordination going on behind the scenes between a billion other events that occur...I just encouraging any other students put in a squeeze to make sure they speak up, at least here...
I might also be lucky in finishing exams on the wednesday just days b4 the event as it turns out :) ...

The article is brief, and from what I was required to do in Year 12 Modern History I can understand why. Perhaps if a few of the sections were compressed and a few titles removed it might make the essay seem "beefier".

Only thing I can tell Sertan is that he needs to make the introduction shorter and to use referencing more in his essays. (Right now at Uni I'm learning all how to do referencing etc so I guess I notice it more now).

It was going to be roughly 3500-4000 words, but I had to cut it down when I realised it could only be 900-1100. Even though I ended up with about 1800 words, I couldn't cut it anymore. The teacher was fine with it though. Oh, well. Maybe I'll write up something better next time. [;)]

And thank you very much, Souri. I'm especially happy that you kept the case study as it is. Thank you. I'm very grateful. [:)]

- Sertan Saral