Industry and Education

You might want to email/message Maitrek on the forums here. I believe that he's going to the conference and I know he's from SA.

If I was going there'd be no way I'd drive to Melbourne again. I don't want to give those Victorian cops the satisfaction of giving me another speeding ticket in the middle of nowhere. =]

Hrm...car with no stereo + *loud* exhaust for 8-9 hours???...there's room left, but we also need to make a detour on the way back. Aside from that I guess it's available. You get back seat though :P

Leaving thursday midday? leaving sunday arvo (be back in adelaide around 1-2 am?)

sounds good to me

IMO it would be one of the following: GP500 (PC), TD Le Mans(DC) or Grand Prix Challenge(PS2)... all good in their own way.

quote:Originally posted by Red 5

IMO it would be one of the following: GP500 (PC), TD Le Mans(DC) or Grand Prix Challenge(PS2)... all good in their own way.

Even though you picked 3 titles I worked on I don't think you are thinking far enough back...

How about:
- Way of the exploding fist
- The Hobbit

for their time they were two of the greatest games in the world, which just happened to have been made in Australia.

yeh...i havent played The Hobbit myself, but one of my lecturers at Uni can't stop raving about it...

I personally haven't played many Aussie games , but I own Ty the Tassie Tiger, and that would be my vote...

quote:Originally posted by Zaph

quote:Originally posted by Red 5

IMO it would be one of the following: GP500 (PC), TD Le Mans(DC) or Grand Prix Challenge(PS2)... all good in their own way.

Even though you picked 3 titles I worked on I don't think you are thinking far enough back...

How about:
- Way of the exploding fist
- The Hobbit

for their time they were two of the greatest games in the world, which just happened to have been made in Australia.

I had a feeling you might join in when you saw that [;)]

Those other titles you mentioned might be great but they're not my style of game, the ones I chose are IMO the best from Australia.

Zaph, the bottom line is you need to make another racing game... I'll help you out [;)]

Stacey Jones' Rugby League.

freedom force or dark reign

dark reign has got my vote.

who was Dark Reign made by?

quote:Originally posted by Kane

who was Dark Reign made by?

Auran, Brisbane.

auran
and that vote by me involved no bias [;)]

Was it made my Auran? Hmm not too sure... lol.

EDIT: Darn u guys beat me to it, shoulda refreshed my browser :D

do u work at Auran or something Shiva?

I think most of you know I would nominate The Way of the Exploding Fist due to my interview with Gregg Barnett [:)]

C'mon, that game got the ball rolling on the 1vs1 combat/fighting genre and spawned countless clones on various platforms! Not only was it original and groundbreaking, but they simply got everything right with it! Great artwork (colourful backdrops, believable character animation. So many moves/attacks possible with one joystick and a button), extremely catchy music, and the gameplay was and still is top notch! You can block, parry, do combo's to some extent.. You could be be cheap against the computer real early on by sweeping, but he gets much harder later on.. player vs player mode was so much fun.

I like Grand Prix Challenge(PS2) too, that was a very polished looking game.. I haven't played The Hobbit, but I know that made a huge impact in the game industry when that was released, but Exploding Fist is my number 1. [:)]

quote:Originally posted by Kane

do u work at Auran or something Shiva?

indeed

Is there a list anywhere of All the Australian games ever produced? If not there should be :)

Sumea has a pretty big list of games produced in Australia/NZ, and it's probably the only place where you could find info like this.. (There is a large website that compiles data from every game they could add that has a fair few Aussie and Kiwi games, but you can't get a list from, say, all the Australian games from their database.. I'm sure Sumea has a bigger and more updated list than theirs anyway.)
Anyway, the local games are listed in their developer profiles on Sumea, so you won't get one big long list of all the games. It's by no means a complete list, especially when it comes to older games since sometimes it's hard to find anything about them.. I haven't included a lot of the old games by Melbourne House too since they've done TONNES of 8-bit, Snes games [:)]

Perhaps at some point someone from Melbourne House could send in a photo of the Big Plaque in their reception area that has on it every game melbourne house has created. This is, a Big Plaque! and contains (at a rough count when i looked at it) over 150 titles on around 15-20+ systems. Some of the titles are repeated (on different systems) but it is still a lot of games!
My favourite game from australia might be the Usagi Yojimbo game that melbourne house did for C64. It had some very interesting/unique play elements to fir with the samurai theme, including respect, honour and karma. For example, if you drew your sword (you could have it drawn or sheathed) in front of a monk or peasant, you would lose honour/karma. If you gave a peasant some of your money you would gain karma. If you ever ran out of karma, Usagi would commit hara-kiri to attone for his dishonour!
I wasn't very good at the game though, but i still liked it quite a lot.
There are a lot of australian games i really should get my hands on some day, but too many games, not enough time! And then some people go and release great games on platforms that i don't have!! (hint port transformers to xbox hint) :)
CYer, Blitz

I just thought I would point out that the biggest selling Australian game of all time is Ty the Tasmanian Tiger, by Krome studios in Brisbane. I guess that?s because the strong Aussie content is so popular with the kiddies over seas. Interestingly, it?s actually in the top 50 of best selling games of all time, world wide (at least this is what I?ve heard, I could be wrong!). I think transformers would have a very good chance of competing with these statistics though, as there must be A LOT of transformer fans around the world, and if the game turns out to be as good as it?s looking, it should do very well. However, Krome is currently developing Ty 2, so Melbourne house could have some serious competition beating the Brisbane developer on the best selling games list.

Despite which developer manages to make the most sales, it?s great to see that Australian game developers can compete with the sales figures from the big overseas developers. Our games industry is indeed growing strong.

*cough*kissass*cough* @;-D

LOL @ brain, indeed.

i have played Ty - but i cant say i like the game, but i just dont like the whole genre of game, i can however say that the atmosphere created by the art / sound was done REALLY well, the colours are all rich and vibrant, paramount for a younger age title.

It was one for me to look at - but not really to play. Any platformer that converts me, will be a rare breed indeed.

Racing games... hmmm not really my cuppo coffee either, Way of the exploding fist - now that was a game, i played over and over, and im not much of a fighting game enthusiast either.
But it would definately have to get my vote - hobbit a close second.

The only game that had aussie content i liked was Crash Bandicoot.....*Relises bandicoots aren't australian* DAMN!

Ok since i only found out by this thread that Dark Reign was Aussie, then that's got my vote. But it will soon change when Transformers comes out. *Starts singing transformers song*

Transformers robots in disguise,
Transformers more than meets the eye,
Transformers that is all i know,
Tranformers i'll go back to the start.

Transformers robots in disguise,
Transformers more than meets the eye,
Transformers that is all i know,
Tranformers i'll go back to the start.

Transformers robots in disguise,
Transformers more than meets the eye,
Transformers that is all i know,
Tranformers i'll go back to the start.

quote:Originally posted by palantir

I just thought I would point out that the biggest selling Australian game of all time is Ty the Tasmanian Tiger, by Krome studios in Brisbane. I guess that?s because the strong Aussie content is so popular with the kiddies over seas. Interestingly, it?s actually in the top 50 of best selling games of all time, world wide (at least this is what I?ve heard, I could be wrong!).

I'd love to know where you got those stats (not doubting them, just dont know where to find them). How many copies did Ty sell ?

Melbourne House sold over 500,000 copies of The Hobbit, and 500,000 of Way of the Exploding fist, both on tape back in '83-'86 !
To put that in perspective, Doom only sold 1.1 million (similar figures for Doom2 ten years later :-)

Success for any Aussie company is good for all the others, since it shows that top games can be made here (on the same grounds, Aussie companies folding or failing to deliver can't be good news)

quote:Originally posted by Brian
*cough*kissass*cough* @;-D

Er, yeah, sorry [8)] - I guess I was still in job interview mode when I typed that. Didn't mean to lay it on so thick!
*wipes brown stuff off nose*

I was just trying to say how cool it is that Aussie developers can be as successful as the big overseas games, and also how it will be interesting to see how both Transformers and Ty 2 do (both being pretty big Aussie titles near completion).
And BTW, I didn?t say anything about liking Ty, just that it sold well. I don?t really go for 3d platform games.

quote:Originally posted by Zaph
I'd love to know where you got those stats (not doubting them, just dont know where to find them). How many copies did Ty sell ?

Like I said, it's only what I've heard, so I could be wrong. But according to their web site TY sold over 1 million copies. [url]www.kromestudios.com.au[/url]

quote:From Krome's web site:
?As the creator of TY the Tasmanian Tiger, Krome has the number one selling Australian game of all time, having sold over a million units to date.?

quote:From Krome's web site:
?As the creator of TY the Tasmanian Tiger, Krome has the number one selling Australian game of all time, having sold over a million units to date.?

Nice, that would definately put it up there at the top, or close to it. Very few games crack the million mark, so it's a huge achievement to get there.

I think there might be a few Aussie titles trying to break that record. Two I think have a shot at it are:
- Transformers - no bias :-)
- Tribes Vengance (if people can drag themselves away from Counterstrike and Battlefield!)

and there are a bunch of others that have a shot at it coming along (check the sumea list of Aussie games, there are some big names in there)
http://www.sumea.com.au/sdevelopers.asp

quote:it?s actually in the top 50 of best selling games of all time, world wide (at least this is what I?ve heard, I could be wrong!).

Hmm, I don't think that is right, considering there are around 40 games that have done more than a million units in the US alone this generation - when you go back and add in the 8/16/32-bit era games, it looks even more unlikely. Selling a million copies is still an impressive effort, though.

Irrational has studios in the US and Australia so I would really call it a 100% Australian made games (no offence to the guys working at irrational)

Wouldn't, I mean. Where the hell is the edit post button on these forums anyway? [:p]

quote:Originally posted by stonedwal:
when you go back and add in the 8/16/32-bit era games, it looks even more unlikely.

Yeah, but I wonder how many of those old games would be on a top 50 best selling list? Not talking about units moved, but $$$. When you consider inflation, the cost of games going up, and an ever-growing market/audience (and there are probably other factors), I get the feeling that it would be mostly current generation games in the top 50 best selling list.

It would be very interesting to see sales figures of all the top games. Personally I believe that TY would be in the top 50, considering that it sold around the same as something as big as the Doom games (plus I heard this stat from a reliable, if somewhat biased source [;)]). Don't underestimate the selling power of popular children?s games.

quote:Where the hell is the edit post button on these forums anyway?

- It's the button with the little piece of paper and a pen over it, that said "Edit Reply" when you hold the cursor over it, and only shows up on your own posts.
[:)]

I don't see it. Might be my firewall blocking cookies again.

quote:When you consider inflation, the cost of games going up, and an ever-growing market/audience (and there are probably other factors), I get the feeling that it would be mostly current generation games in the top 50 best selling list.

Game prices have been stagnate on the consoles since I started buying games in 1990 - except for a sharp rise in 1994 when the average cart-based game price was ~$149.95

I'll see if I can get a list of the top selling titles this generation once I get home later tonight.

quote:considering that it sold around the same as something as big as the Doom games

Personally, I consider this to be a flawed comparison. Piracy is much more widespread on the PC than the consoles, so it is much harder to compare the two. Compare the biggest selling PC title - The Sims with 6 Million copies, to the biggest selling console title - Super Mario Brothers 3 with 19 Million copies, and you'll see what I am getting at (Guinness lists Super Mario Brothers as the top selling title with 34 million, but the truth is that most of these copies were pack-ins with the NES console).

quote:Don't underestimate the selling power of popular children?s games

Believe me, I don't. People will hound on Nintendo for producing games with allegedly childish themes, but they're still the #2 publisher of games worldwide (possibly #1 when you consider that The Pokemon Company is a separate entity that Nintendo controls). You don't have to be a child to enjoy a game that doesn't deal in excessive amounts of gore.

From the discreet.com website...

Company: Digital Video Technologies (NZ) Ltd

Main Contact: Catherine Weedon
E-Mail: Catherine@dvt.co.nz

HomePage:
Phone: (64) 9 525 0788
Fax: (64) 9 579 6029
Address: Level 2
45 Fairfax Avenue

City: Penrose
State/province: Auckland
Country: New Zealand
Zip/postal code:

Company: Next Media Ltd.

Main Contact: Jonathan Poleglas
E-Mail: info@nextmedia.co.nz

HomePage:
Phone: (64) 09 523 4672
Fax: (64) 09 523 4671
Address: 52 Broadway
Newmarket

City: Auckland
State/province:
Country: New Zealand
Zip/postal code:

Thank'ee =)

I might be awake still then from the night before, if so I'll check it out :-)

and welcome to another episode of why we invited that, here we delve into the creation of the timer record on the VCR.....

6th of may, got it ;)

That's if you happen to have a VCR handy, can program it successfully, and actually have a blank tape to tape on.

:-P
Either that or I could get a nice TV tuner card... hrm...

quote:Originally posted by Daemin

That's if you happen to have a VCR handy, can program it successfully, and actually have a blank tape to tape on.

all that seems alot easier then getting up at 6am :P

Actually, it would be great if someone could capture it and divx it somwhere.. I wouldn't mind seeing what Melbourne House HQ looks like! 6am is an extremely early time to get up though, although I sometimes go to bed at that time.

quote:Originally posted by Souri

Actually, it would be great if someone could capture it and divx it somwhere.. I wouldn't mind seeing what Melbourne House HQ looks like! 6am is an extremely early time to get up though, although I sometimes go to bed at that time.

6am would be a great time to get up - compared to the time we have to get up... We've got to be there at 5:30am, so most of us will be getting up at 4:30am. I've played Battlefield later than that :-)

damn this for being on on the one day a week I get to sleep in...[:D]

quote:Originally posted by Souri
Actually, it would be great if someone could capture it and divx it somwhere.. I wouldn't mind seeing what Melbourne House HQ looks like!

Finally, a use for my HDTV tuner card and brand-spankin'-new beefy CPU!

Now all I have to do is send an email home to remind me to set a timer. =]

D'oh! Forgot to set a tape this morning..

Maybe someone captured it...?

quote:Originally posted by TheBigJ

D'oh! Forgot to set a tape this morning..

Maybe someone captured it...?

I'll be putting some footage and photos online later today

Pfsh... lil 5 minute segments with the weather. I want more!!

Transformers looks damn nice though. Will be forcing myself not to pick it up release day @:-P

quote:Originally posted by Zaph

I'll be putting some footage and photos online later today

Great. Looking forward to it. Transformers is looking excellent [;)]

got to watch it, arent you a chirpy bunch for 6am :D
oh and which one of you told the weather man to say the line about programmmers getting the girls :P

Atari have some behind-the-scenes photos online

http://www.atari.com.au/news/?action=view&id=650

(uncredited photographer: me)

I watched it on Sunrise, and I thought the coverage was pretty cool. Put those 4 5 minute segments together, and you have 20 minutes total coverage, which is probably more than any tv station has given to any local game developer/game.. It would've been great if you didn't have to wait 25 minutes for the next weather check, but hey, that's the nature of the program. Oh, and I was hoping for the cameraman to do a run through of the office so we could see a bit more of it.

And yeh, Transformers looks incredibly good! [:)]

Adam Lancman was there on the couch, but I didn't catch any of the other peoples names though.

I should add that I captured the whole damn show. That's a ~12.5gig HD MPEG2 stream. I don't do any video editing on PC - anyone have any suggestions for free tools to use to edit out the relevant bits?

Virtual Dub i think allows simple chopping etc. as well as encoding it out to divx or whatever codec you want.
www.virtualdub.org
CYer, Blitz

quote:Originally posted by Shplorb

I should add that I captured the whole damn show. That's a ~12.5gig HD MPEG2 stream. I don't do any video editing on PC - anyone have any suggestions for free tools to use to edit out the relevant bits?

VirtualDub (as Blitz said) is a great free tool
you could also use TMPGENC to get it into MPEG1 format.

Also, since it was in widescreen the best thing to do is to resize it so that it has a 16:9 ratio of pixels (rather than stretched pixels) - that way it will play correctly at fullscreen on everyones PC.
If you cut something together at, say, 30-50mb, then I'm happy to host the file (on my personal website)- just give me a buzz.

My guess would be canberra, IG canberra recently announced that they were expanding etc.
Also it'll be using the vengeance engine which they developed, so...
I have no idea what the size/structure of the US studio is, do they actually develop there, or is it more like just an office or something. Do they collaborate on projects between studios???
You could email them :P

no Boston.

quote:Originally posted by Doord

no Boston.

That is to say Boston is making it.

For a minute there i thought you'd gone and blown it up!
CYer, Blitz

I would help if I can.

u have e-mail, titled "R18+ game rating questions"

I'll give it a go

Thanks for your responses, I have enough now. I'll let you all know when the feature is running.

All the best.

Hi all,

The Age finally ran the feature today - http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/07/07/1089000215032.html

Thanks again for your help.

Jason

thanks for giving us the link, its a good read :)

A well written and researched article.. Honestly, the R rating category for games needs to be persued until it eventually happens. If not, we'll keep getting these knee-jerk reactions every time a game aimed for a mature audience comes to Australia. And I quote:

quote:"This is just encouraging kids to grow up to sneak around and shoot people in the back of the head," Mr McNamara said.

"It just begs disbelief, especially here in the hitman and crime capital of the nation.
"It's absolutely disgusting to promote heinous crime and build up such an unhealthy fantasy.
"It should be kicked off the market. The Government should step in and do something."

This is about the Hitman: Contracts game a [url="http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,10178867%255E421,00.html"]group of people are trying to get banned in Australia.[/url] I do question why the reporter had to include the information that 11 year olds are playing that game though - that's more an issue about bad parenting, rather than violence in video games.. And since the issue is violence in video games, the whole point is moot when it's not supposed to be accessible to children.

Agreed on the 11 yolds thing. It might make sense if the article was about blockbuster allowing children to rent mature titles or something, but the way it is, it has no relevance to the rest of the article. They may as well have just said "but the herald sun has learned children as young as 11 have lit off firecrackers (without the appropriate pyro license)".
Other amusing tidbits in the article include "Mr McIntosh said he didn't believe in censorship, but the Government could put moral pressure on the distributors." What kind of drugs is this guy on to make such an absurd statement.
Finally, it's not really an issue about an R rating, since even if it existed the game is classified as MA by the OFLC's own rating guidleines.
Oh, and the bit at the end about blockbuster not responding? Very lame attempt at controversy :P What the hell have they got to do with it!
CYer, Blitz

It just seems to me that the extreme conservatists and other fundamentalists (christians - could be other religious groups too) are trying to make laws to prevent us from ever being exposed to anything violent, explicit or what they would deem inappropriate. Even with an R rating kids would still play the games sure, it could be put down to bad parenting, but also it could be put down to society in general, where the children are given all the power now, so even if the parent bans them doing something it means little when the child can just accuse them of abuse and go to a relative and play the game there etc.

Argh, I'm rambling, but (hopefully) you get the picture.

Although I must say that I've read the article and I found it very well written pointing to intelligent arguments and issues. Good Job! (Plus it was cool seeing some names of people that I know :-)

It's very obvious that that article on Hitman is completely biased. Like most anti-game articles I've read, its aimed at people who have no clue about games, with claims such as "also available on the internet" and "post-action visuals of the victims in blood-pools".

Besides, I try not to pay too much attention to an anti-gamer who can't make a point without bringing children into it. The fact that children are playing it is completely irrelevant. No-one tryed to ban Kill Bill when it came out, but I'd bet plenty of 11 year olds got their hands on it.

I look forward to more comments like "This is just encouraging kids to grow up to sneak around and shoot people in the back of the head" from Mr McNamara whenever a game that has guns is released from now on.

Once again another 'brilliant' example of stupid knee-jerk reactions.

If i was to buy into their kind of argument (which I don't) - then I would be running around saying we should all burn the bible and denounce the lord because more atrocities and violence have been committed in the name of that book than video games by an absolute mile.

Games are games, if a kid doesn't understand that, and gets a hold of a game because their parents suck - then why is it the fault of the game developers/distributors/government? Having said that, sometimes I do wonder what the fascination is with playing out violent scenarios in a gaming situation. I'm surprised we all haven't keeled over with boredom (I have).

To quote someone else: "Everything is new to a kid"...

Plus the whole violence fantasy thing, knights in armour, cops and robbers (with guns shooting), cowboys and indians. I think its just more than the media, the whole of civilisation depends upon violence. Anyways, you just can't blame one thing for the way society is, you can't even blame society because its what you made...

ahhh u got me started on the games influencing kids thingy.

Im a very avid video game player, ive been playing video games since my fingers were strong enuf to push the buttons on the controller and it hasnt effected me in the slightest, ive played bloody games like doom and heretic when i was small and ive played games like soldier of fortune and duke nukem when i was a bit younger, and ive played games like resident evil, silenthill, and many other various bllody, grusome titles. And i luved them all. my parents bought me up teaching me not to harm others, thats the simple fact. I knew i should treat others with respect, yet i still played bloody shootem up games my whole life.

In my opinion its up to the parents to teach their kids that games are games and life is life. If the parents buy their kid a game, they should know wots in it and how the game is played. Why should all the fans of gory games suffer the loss of a great game because mums and dads suck at parenting.

Skribble: exactly, games are games, life is life, it's as simple as that! If someone doubts that then ask them to use a mouse and keyboard to move around in the real world...

You're right, Skribble, but on top of all of that, games like Hitman, Doom, SoF, etc were never even intended to be played by children in the first place. Personally, I don't think they have much of an effect on kids so long as they're brought up by responsible parents, but even if it did, its not a kids game anyway! This why I get frustrated listening to people like Noel McNamara using children to fuel their agenda.

I mean after all if you were to remove the influence on children part of his argument, what does he have left? He has no place telling grown adults (the intended audience of Hitman) what they can play, especially after the OFLC has classified it.

My view on what is happening:

There are a few reasons why kids are even getting a hold of these games. It's these reasons that should be looked at - and not the games themselves.

1) Kids grow up in a family where both parents work. The kids are old enough to look after themselves and do not have a babysitter. When parents are away they have free access to the pc/console to play what ever it is they want.

2) Games are being sold to kids with out adherance to the ages in which they should be purchased.

3) Parents are not computer literate and thus do not monitor what it is their kids are doing on the computer. This includes the downloading, using, or installing of various games or applications.

4) Parents are buying games for their kids with out actually researching or understanding what it is they are getting for their kids.

Yes it's brief and very broad in terms of grouping.

I think that you can cull content all you want but it's not actually helping anything. Withholding is not a cure it's a punishment. What should be happening is that adults should become more educated and aware of what is and is not appropriate for their kids. This includes making sure kids have an understanding of what is and is not reality.

quote:Originally posted by Maitrek

Once again another 'brilliant' example of stupid knee-jerk reactions.
[url="http://gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?section_name=ret&aid=3890"]Here's another example[/url] of a stupid knee-jerk reaction..

quote:"British electronics retailer Dixons has removed Rockstar's Manhunt title from stores, after newspapers and TV news shows reported allegations that the title had influenced a teenager found guilty of the murder of a younger boy."

It makes the same sense for them to ban the sales of claw hammers and knives from stores to stop it from ever happening again.. [:P] Even though the motif of the murder was to pay for drug related debt, even though the game was rated R over there and that he shouldn't have had the game the first place, the retail chain thought it made sense to just pull the title off the shelf.. [xx(]

The comments by the murderer's mother were predictable - the game is just an easy scapegoat to blame it all on. Curious as to why she did nothing when she saw that he was obsessive over it.

To think of the millions and millions of copies that the Grand Theft Auto series has sold, I can only recall one incident where some kid carried out sniping of people, which was influenced from the game. It's hardly the crisis that some people (like those in the Hitman contracts article) would like to believe.

Comic books, Rock 'n' Roll music, television, now videogames. Just ride the wave, it'll blow over in time.

Having said that this topic is pretty much preaching to the converted. It's easier for papers to sell news if it's negative.

Although, games are interactive - unlike the previous examples. You get rewarded for morally bad behaviour. It's possible that in certain individuals, it may influence their behaviour - but then again, with the same individuals, maybe not getting enough ketchup in your burger is enough to make them flip out.

As a counter point - games are drawing their inspiration from life, not the other way around.

If they can sort out a ratings system properly, they need to enforce it. Alternatively, they could store all 18+ games behind the counter or in a cordoned off area of the store, a bit like how the pornography sections are sectioned off in video stores.

Although it must be said that people call gamers obsessive when they play and finish the same game over a weekend period. To them playing through a whole game seems to be an obsessive behaviour...

Well you could also say that wanting to read through a whole book over the weekend because it was so interesting is also an obsessive behaviour!

The copy of Manhunt was [url="http://www.mcvuk.com/html/news/story.jsp?newsId=1928139"]found in the victim's room[/url], and not the murderer's. Manhunt gets [url="http://www.bbc.co.uk/paintingtheweather/assets/painting/std/scapegoat.j…"]scapegoat of the year[/url] award.

the really annoying thing is people do stupid things after theyve played a game like vice city and then the parents go and sue game companys. Lets think about it, vice city has topped 5 million sold, take two are doing ok for themselves and the people know it, they sure for money. The game company allmost literally cops it for being sucessfull.

quote: vice city has topped 5 million sold
Okay, so that means at least 5 million people played it right? If there is any grounds to sue Take Two as the responsible party for the violence those kids caused, then there should be about 5 million more murders/acts of extreme violence then usual. But there weren?t, so the game developer is no more responsible then, say, the news stations for reporting the daily violence we all see.

What I find extremely annoying, is that the parents of the kids who do these things look for someone to blame ? the people responsible for it is THE PARENTS. They raised children stupid enough to see something in a game and then go and try it for real, therefore, the parents are directly responsible for their children?s irresponsible actions, and as such, they should be sued for all they are worth by the government for raising such terrors of society. In fact they should be held responsible for their children?s actions and put in prison. Maybe if parents were treated as the people responsible for their children?s actions, more parents would do a better job and there wouldn?t be so many problems with the world?

//end rant [^]

quote:Originally posted by palantir
so the game developer is no more responsible then, say, the news stations for reporting the daily violence we all see.

thats actually a fair point, heh suddenly i feel like taking up on the current affair offer posted in general ;)

I'm not speaking from experience but from what I understand parenting might not be as easy as it sounds, even with the best intentions. Can we really blame all of the worlds problems on bad parenting? At some stage I think people need to take responsibility for their own actions.

Of course people should take responsibility for their own actions, however, IMHO parents are (or at least should be!) much more influential to how their children grow up, what their values and morals are etc. than computer games.
CYer, Blitz

As an addition (after just reading some of those Manhunt etc. related news stories), i've never felt like a violent act or anything after/due to playing computer games, but i must say that after reading some of the comments in those articles it makes me want to beat some sense into those idiots.
Hey, maybe i could beat the crap out of the Daily Mail's editor, and then sue him for millions of dollars in emotional damages??? I mean, it was his articles that drove me to it!
CYer, Blitz

Blitz -> Re: Responsibility ; The whole idea is that no one is responsible for anything. Parents aren't responsible, the teenager who commited the murder isn't responsible, the computer games developers aren't responsible. That's just the way it is...no one wants to assume any responsibility because of the way things are! Why would we want to feel like that or put ourselves through it? It 'feels' better to pretend it's someone elses fault.

Lets just blame God...
Sue the churches for a pretty penny.
CYer, Blitz

We don't want to take responsibility for our own actions now because we could be "held accountable" for it and sued for all our worldy possessions and even more. I figure we'd be more responsible for our actions if the threat of being sued wasn't over our heads as much as it is now.

To get into Australia as an Australian citizen you need an Australian passport or a valid VISA in your UK passport. It's that simple :) An Australian citizenship certificate isn't enough, and there's a good chance they'll send you back to the UK on arrival if that's all you have.

What you need to do it contact the Australian embassy in the UK and apply for an Australian passport through them. You'll need to supply your certificate of citizenship, birth certificates, and some information about your father, etc. If you're already a citizen, then you should be able to get a passport no problems.

Good luck :)
OJ

You can hold dual-citizenship.

As OJ mentioned, contact the Australian Embassy in London and apply for your passport. Should only take a few weeks.

If applying by mail don't send your original certificate, unless they specifically ask for it, you can get a certified copy at either a police station or a Justice of the Peace (JP) or court Judge.

Make sure you send it Full Registered Post - it won't get lost easily that way. (We've had stuff go missing even with signed Royal Mail before).

Dual Citizenship rocks! When I want to visit a country that's upset with the US, I just us my Aussie passport and vice versa. Then again, it does have it's drawbacks, like, being interviewed by the FBI and having your security clearence denied due to you being a "threat" since you hold allegences with 2 countries. What, like I'm going to sell secrets about 50 year old atomic bombs to Australia? Shoot, the US use to set bombs off down under, I'm sure they know more then I would ever know. Ah well, that was a past life anyways...

Like the other guys have said, you need to get an Aussie passport otherwise you won't be let in.

could be done many ways, perhaps most importantly is find a way that works for you best.

usually involvs a group of mates ( whom you plan on making the demo with ) and a few beers, maybe a pen and some paper to make some notes with.

Rough out your idea in this fashion, breaking down all the individual systems / pieces you need for your game.

Make yourself an asset list / for both code and art.

Make a schedule based on your superb judgment, of how long you think each art asset will take.

From that you can say we will have a demo by such and such a date.

Copyright im not so sure about.

Once your demo is all up and ready to show the publisher, send it off - or even better knock on his door. and take his wallet while hes not looking.

Hope that helps a little Gibbz, what youve asked is a pretty broad question, theres a shitload of stuff involved - BUT the more serious you take it, the more professional your demo will look.

All of the above statements are just my answers, and how id probably go about it, but in all honestly you have to find what works for you.

Magna,
I just want to say in my opinion, you're making the right choice. Although game specific programs are bennificial in some areas, the amount of knowledge you get in a CS degree is worth 10 times more! Essential, programming is just like a learning a new language (as in spanish, french, whatever), anyone can learn it. Syntax is easy it's learning the rules, the reasons why it does what it does, that shapes a good programmer.

CS will give you the science behind computers. You'll learn the importance of Big O notation in terms of assessing algorithms (you'll have it ingrained in you). You'll even learn how to make your own processer! You'll have a great low level understanding of computers and their theory which in the long run, will show in the quality of your code/games you make.

It's my belief that Gaming schools teach you a skill, where as a University teaches you the methods/ideas/reasons behind that skill.

Personal exerience here. We have one person who went to Digipen (I believe the first game specific school). The rest of our team were all uni graduates. Come 6 weeks before we shipped Generals, the Digipen person was not allowed to touch the code as his changes were very sloppy and dangerous to the product. Where as everyone else (10 other engineers) we allowed to make changes. It even got to the point that the code this guy wrote, he wasn't even allowed to fix, we had to spend our time fixing his code (first trying to make sense of it). Anyway, now he's the only one on the team not working on the LoTR RTS.

Of course, there's exceptions to every rule. And I have known plenty of self taugh kick ass programmers. Those guys usually don't require uni because they have the low level understanding through their own education.

about the Digipen student - i know someone that went there and he said that most of the 2 year degree students were lacking lots of know-how and that if u were going to go to Digipen the 4 year was the only way to go

Still wondering what some good universites with good computer science departments are? =)

Umm, are you specifically looking at QLD or elsewhere as well?
I did computer science at monash uni (clayton), which was pretty decent as far as i'm concerned (although i have nothing to compare it to!). There was a fairly wide range of subjects, although if you were looking to get really heavily into AI or Graphics etc. you might have difficulty getting further than the intro subjects (which are still very good though), until say, an honours year. However, that was 2 years ago, and with the introduction of the (somewhat) games specific multimedia course, there may be a greater range of subjects available.
It also has a wide variety of courses, covering pretty much all teh standard disciplines, so if you wanted to step out of the CS stuff and do a couple of psychology subjects or something you wouldn't have far to go.
Anyway, my advice would be to check out a bunch of CS courses, see what their core subjects, and electives are etc., what else the school has to offer (like decent comptuer labs!) and then fire of some questions to the lecturers, co-ordinators etc. telling them what you hope to get out of the course, see what suggestions they can offer in relation to subjects, and if they can refer you to previous students etc. See if you can find other previous students for other opinions. Basically, if you haven't enrolled yet, you're probably not going to be getting into anything until next year (i dunno if you could still enrol for second semester), so you probably have plenty of time to look around.
CYer, Blitz

i am still in school and just looking around for good unis - i want to escape from Queensland!!!! - I am kinda looking towards going to Melbourne to Monash or LaTrobe but am still looking - Digipen still looks pretty mad :p

*BUMP*

huh ??? wassa.. wha ? ...

[:)]

couldnt resist [;)]

UTS :)

I've had the pleasure of studying and UTS, QUT and UC - I can honestly say that the other didn't come close to UTS. For a CS degree, it's a winner!

Hope that helps :)
OJ

I would give absolutely anything to work on an SG-1 game. I am a complete and utter Stargate Fanatic. I hope they turn out great, go the aussies!

yeh, I'd love to be part of the SG-1 team!

go Perception!

gah.. "computer whiz". The Age should know better.

Great news though. I'm a big fan of SG-1 and can't wait for the game.

stargate was never really a faverouite of mine (actually i find the whole show rather predictable and common pleasedontkillme) but none the less its good to see a deal like this go down with an aussie company.

Anybody thought about what type of ame would suit the SG-1 story the best? I mean recently I've been playing Star Wars:KOTOR and I think that kind of gameplay would be pretty damn close of what you'd want for the stargate game. I mean I hope they don't make it into a pure First person shooter, not unless they get a really good story behind it like they did for Star Trek: Elite Force...

Oh well /rant

This is great news for Perception and for the Oz games industry. And if you're looking for a job, they are looking for programmers and artists. Let's see more Australian companies go for it like this.

I hope its not going to be a pure FPS. What makes Stargate good is the characters, diverse settings, mix of culture, science and technology, etc. Sure, they carry RC-P90s with them everywhere they go but, like, they don't use them.. that often.

I think a squad-based RPG would suit the show much better.

I wonder what's going to [url="http://stargatetc.com/"]happen to this project[/url].. It's a Half-life based mod on the Stargate characters/universe.

I've only seen the Stargate movie, and while it was interesting, I'd have liked it a lot better if they excised the cultural imperialism from it. Its subtext seemed to be that the natives wouldn't know where to start to save themselves, but the good ol US-of-A-alikes can come in and save their asses. Too many movies like this and the american public will support invading middle eastern nations to save the citizens from themselves... Oh wait a minute... [:D]

So in short, like Star Trek, which also has elements of this, I found the patronising message of the film to be slightly offensive. Not having wasted money on buying a TV, I can't say I'm familiar with the show that's come from the film, perhaps it has improved. Hope springs eternal.

Yeah the "Computer Whiz" bit was quite cringeworthy...

I find SG-1 much more enjoyable than the movie, but thats just me.

I would like to see it go FPS, but I definately would want to be able to walk around and explore, lots of NPCs to talk to, and a few side missions to go on. No walk around find the key stuff please, I don't want to have to complete level after level to get to the boss Goa'uld. Being able to travel between planets at any time would be good, similar to KOTOR.

Personally I would like to hear the main actors from the show doing the voices. If I am controlling SG-1 throughout the entire game, I don't want to be hearing some no name trying to imitate Richard Dean Anderson and others. If that is an issue, I would much prefer that the player is involved in a new SG team, with occasional appearances from main characters at various times.

I have been playing with Farcry for the last few weeks, and the CryEngine seems to be something that would suit a Stargate game quite well. Massive open environments, with decent indoor capabilities too. Squad based AI, Land, Sea and Air vehicle support, its all there.

Yeah, the stargate series is far better than the movie, and yeah, if it was a pure 3d shooter then it would suck badly.

I think the best idea is the one where you control another team of people that regularly interfaces with SG-1...

Although at least that's what I think would work best.

(Thanks for bringing that up Major Clod :-)

I agree. The movie is great too, but I find the show even better. Or I did, once I got over the fact that Col. O'Neil was being played by McGuyver. :)

That just makes it all the better, now instead of playing a smart and tough guy who could get himself out of any situation with just a few bricks and string, he's now playing a dumb and tough guy who can get himself out of any situation ... :-)

Although more often than not its Jackson or Carter that do the "getting out of any situation" part. O'Neil serves mostly for comic relief [;)]

im afraid i cant pass the magic potion that will woo the government to your gaming will but i do agree with you. Its funny how games potential are only just being realised but rest assured those baby steps are being taken more as great baby strides. For example games have just recently been seen as a advertising material in the same sence movies are. Product placement is ofcourse all over movies and buddy cops ride around in the latest showroom car etc, recently red bull has appeared in two games (as a product placement, not just some developer who tipped his hat to the drink that kept him through the late nights making the game :P ), judge dread and worms 3D (so im told, ive only actually seen the dread one).

More and more the world realises who games mirror movies (they share some similarities from this point of perspective, im not trying to start a "do i enjoy movies or games more" debate) and thus mirror the potential, so id say your government interest isnt too far off.

Does anyone know *any* initiatives that other states (NSW,SA,WA,TAS) offer for commercial and indie game developers? Governments should look into the awards that the local industry has been receiving, beating other media companies in their category for the number of exports/dollars they're bringing into the economy..
The Digital Media Fund which is offering help to independant game developers on funding/helping out with contracts (keeping IP) etc is a great start, but it's only available for Victorian developers.
There are some countries that have really embraced the game industry. I think I read a while ago about the French government pumping in the sum of about $30 million worth of support into their local game industry (that includes support for independant game developers as well).

All i have to say is god bless steve Bracks.

I've not heard of any from other states, perhaps they're oblivious to the lucrativity of the game industry (or at least haven't shown anyone in the public that they are). The only one I know of was at AGDC, I talked to someone from NSW gov't who was "investigating". Though in all honesty, I think they are too wrapped with the film industry to bother with gaming just yet (please prove me wrong).

So I salute the QL and Victorian gov'ts for showing initiative and support for the gaming industry, and the others should pull their heads out of the sand and take a look at what's happening.

With the event of consoles like PSP coming, there's a LOT of opportunity for Australian game development to shine. Our Tantalus's, Torus's, Kromes ..etc are doing a good a fantastic job *Big Up!!*. But the point is that without government support some possibilities of other talents, with less funding, may not get the chance to help. Specifically DevKits and secondly, assistance with flights, acommodation, and conference tickets.

so what exactly does (..or can) the QLD government do for indi game developers?
or where can I research into this more?

Yeah, the government owes us all a living. My rant is that no industry should be getting hand outs.

They're not handouts. It's in the governments interest to support companies/startups with good prospects, because when they start making a lot of money, the goverment reaps the benefits with taxes. So, grants etc. aren't handouts, they're an investment with a huge return possibility :)
CYer, Blitz

As blitz says, they're not quite hand outs, they're long term investments. Helping build and attract game development to Australia, and providing local exports of high quality content to the rest of the world.

No industry should get handouts? Well, depends what you mean by handouts. Because if health and education didn't get "handouts" the average person wouldn't be able to go to school or get medical treatment... and I'd be wondering exactly where my tax dollars are going... But if you're talking about "picking winners" i.e. choosing and assisting certain industries (and not others) through grants and tax subsidies, then... well, it's a complex issue. Singapore and Ireland (IT sector) are just two countries I can think of off the top of my head where government assistance has had a huge positive effect on the economy.

I reckon small businesses in general need more help (a lower company tax rate for one thing). And both the government and the community benefits from a strong business sector - jobs for one thing, taxes for another. As for helping the game industry in particular, Blitz is spot on. The government have decided to help games developers because the sector shows a lot of potential growth and promises to create more jobs, bring in export income, generate tax revenue for the government, etc.

So I'm interested [:)] - where can we find out more about the grants on offer?

www.qldgamedev.com

Wow, what QLD and Vic do for game developers is AWESOME!!!! You won't find that over here in the states unless some government official is getting a hefty kickback. Now only if WA would do something like that :) (Only 3 more months until I'm there!!!!)

And here is what the Victorian Government is doing: http://www.mmv.vic.gov.au/gameplan

Yeh, I think the term 'hand out' is kinda misleading. Those kits and schemes aren't simply given to anyone that comes and asks for one.
For the Playstation 2 development kit, you have to prove that you are capable of development (detailing on your background, experience etc), and then you're given milestones to complete your objective. Each milestone is checked with someone relegated to you from the industry/on the scheme, so if you're expecting to get a free $20,000 kit without doing any work, I'm sure you'll be found out and those kits taken away, pronto. I think that's a pretty good idea to encourage development happening and not simply offer 'handouts'. I'm sure any other schemes and assistance will be just as stringent.

Does Anyone have any sort of contact for the NSW gov't to speak with about this sort of stuff?

The State Government's Department of State and Regional Development assisted with Perception's relocation to a larger studio at Waterloo, so it might be worth contacting them to see how they can help.

Souri, Yah could you. I've got some questions to ask.

Hello everyone, great topic

I've been working in London for the past (almost) 3 years. I came over here after finishing cert IV at the AIE because there wasn't any work where I wanted it, and there was a complete lack of good titles.

The Australian Games industry I think has fallen into that trap of movie/TV licences and sports games. Sure they pay the bills but they don't do anything to promote the industry and they lack the originallity to build a company name.

The industry as I see it needs all the help it can get but it's certainly not doing itself any favours. It's hard though, to develope something trully original that would 'push the limits' so to speak, like Halflife 2, would need enourmous venture capital and quite a bit of development time. VC companies in Australia tend to look down on games and see them as high risk/minimal return kind of thing.

On the positive side, I've talked to alot of people in this industry, and it has to be pointed out that government support is very rare indeed, course, everywhere the money is they don't need government help.

I've emailed them for some more information a few days ago. If they don't reply soon, I'll just forward you their email and you can contact them yourself, Grooveyone.

Good articles and I will add some more points -

Networking/contacts - I'm in my early 30's and I every job I have ever had was through friends, you must make friends and contacts to get jobs in the industry. DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THIS POINT!
Group work - In school you are usually put into groups and very rarely does a group 'click' all the way from start to finish, there will be problems that must be solved. This not only teaches you how to work in a group but also conflict resoloution when thinks are not going well. An example - I was doing a group project at Uni (QUT) and everything was running very well, in fact we were 3 weeks ahead; But in our second to last piece one of our group plagarised 80% of what he did which nearly got the whole group expelled! We were all allowed to stay (with restrictions) but the plagarizer couldn't be removed from the group (teacher wouldn't allow it) so we had to work with him for another 4 weeks :(

I'm mainly going for a lot of the reasons they say in the "5 reasons to go to college" The deadlines in uni will help you when you have work and you have deadlines for those as well. Also I think the part about how if you were left to your own devices you'd play games is true. I always find myself having MAX and Freedom Fighters open at the same time.

Great Article.

ok, one thing tho, if you are thinking of going to college or uni (not sure what the diff is?) Are you prepared to really work hard?, I know I just went in straight after high school, I'm not sure if I was mature enough to totally utilise the education system. So if you wanna go into higher education, go into thinking you'll squeeze every last drop of use out of your hecs!! Because in all honesty, it sounds really bad, but through my own fault I'm not sure I totally learnt all of the good points!! [:(] So maybe get a taste of the real world, work maybe in a job for a year pumping gas or stacking shelves then go to uni, I'm sure you'll have a better work ethic than when your straight out of school.
(OK, ignore my sig for this post![:p])

quote:Originally posted by bloody_footy

Good articles and I will add some more points -

Networking/contacts - I'm in my early 30's and I every job I have ever had was through friends, you must make friends and contacts to get jobs in the industry. DO NOT UNDERESTIMATE THIS POINT!

I have to voice my agreement with that statement! When I got hired on at Westwood, I was one of a very few that made it through the actual hiring from scratch process. The majority of my coworkers had contacts before they joined the company. Now that I've spent a few years in the industry, I've seen that preference is definitely given to "Friends and family members" of current employees (or friends of friends).

Anyway I personally recommend uni as it not only teaches you some specifics about the industry, but it also gives you a wider foundation that you can pool from when making various decisions.

Chris

The reason we have universitys is not so you can add another line to your resume but so you can actually get an education in your selected field. So i think it basicly boils down to "do i need this education, am i allready skilled enough in the tasks that this job asks of me." Pros and Cons aside that to me is basicly the deciding factor.

.....but so you can actually get an education in your selected field

I personally disagree with this. I have worked with many developers since I started work full time, and you'd be suprised how many of them have degrees that do not related to IT/development.

Outside of the games industry (since this is the only part of professional development work I can comment on ;)), it's getting to the point where someone without a degree isn't even looked at for work. Yes, I'm generalising, but that does appear to be the case. It doesn't necessarily matter what the degree is in, just as long as you are qualified.

I believe the main reason companies are looking for qualified people is because they've demonstrated that they can stick to something for 3+ years, no matter what's thrown at them, and come out the other end with an achievement. Getting a university degree demonstrates that you can put your mind to many different problem areas, and finish them with sufficient quality - even if you dont like what you're doing! (everyone who's been through uni knows that there's always going to be a few subjecst that you hate, but you have to do them). This is something that a home-taught person doesn't do. When people teach themselves, they tend to stick to the stuff that they find interesting, and avoid the areas they find boring or non-relevant.

So basically, I feel that the big difference between the two is that graduates have proved they can get through things that suck, even if it takes a long time, whereas unqualified people need to prove it through other means.

As far as what you learn at uni is concerned, I believe that some of the stuff you might learn in the early years can give you a solid foundation to build on in the later years, but on the whole, anything past the first year is a waste of time :)

Cheers
OJ

oh i dont disagree that there are other benifits of uni/TAFE but the universities themselves were set up as facilities of education. If you understand wut im getting at here

Great link Souri

I don't think you could really learn everything you need to know through home learning, its much to easy to ignore the things you don't want to do and chances are with out proper guidance/direction many areas may be overlooked.

But then chances are through a uni you will learn allot.... But not what?s necessarily specific to the job your aiming at[:(]

There for I highly recommend a combination of both learning styles, that way you have all of your bases covered [:)]

quote:But then chances are through a uni you will learn allot.... But not what?s necessarily specific to the job your aiming at

Thats actually one of the reasons going to uni is GOOD. You learn things that you otherwise may not have learnt, and a broader education is better than a very narrow/focused education, because it improves your ability to think, and at some point in the future, you will be trying to come up with a new idea, or solution to a problem, and you will go "Hey, i rememebr this subject once in uni where we did something like that!" :P
Particularly in the area of game development, there are so many areas that are covered. A lot of the really ... smart/accomplished game developers don't come through a standard comp. sci. programming background, they come through maths/science degrees, especially things like physics, biology (medicine), psychology, etc.
CYer, Blitz

I agree with Blitz here, You may not learn the specifics but with the broad background you get, you have those "Hey didn't I study that in Psychology" which gives you a starting point on your research.

Essentially Uni's teach you how to attain information. Along the way you'll pick up specifics but when you leave, and have a degree, the hiring company knows you at least know how to learn new stuff and are often more then willing to train how they want you to be. Which is why, OJ, you've worked with people who don't have IT degree in the IT field. A lot can be said to work with people who are educated but not specifically in the field they're working in. This brings in a whole new level of experiences and backgrounds in order to keep things dynamic. I had a friend who worked for an IT firm that would not hire IT degree people. They had one, the lead, but then they would hire business, english, etc. majors and train these how to code. Sure they wouldn't be the best engineers but at the same time, they didn't have the limitations of computers ingrained in their minds like some people get if they've been in a field too long.

definately, i'm in, i'm gettin there by tram, i'll be goin with maybe one friend or something, cos not to many of my friends are into that stuff.

im very much trying my hardest to go...but i need to save up lots of money by then...

i should be able to do it, so i'll see yall there! [:D]

yep i'm gonna go, going by tram, most likely going by myself and going to stay at home

Yes I'm going, public transport as usual. I'll likely be by myself so I think a dinner before hand would be great.

Not going at all, it's during a Uni week, and I can't afford to miss Uni this semester.

oh yeh...ill probably only be there for the last 2 days cos I can't miss Uni on the Friday...[V]

id love to go - but alas my feet remain rooted in red queensland soil.. :(

Im certainly going to the two weekend days, the friday is questionable. Id probably go to the dinner if it was organised but i cant confirm that untill i have details ofcourse :)

has a venue been mentioned yet? last time i checked one wasnt. anyway, where-ever, ill be taking public transport of some kind :P (bus train etc) and staying at my house!!! :D

I'll be there on the weekend days. Catching the good old MET and staying at home :).
CYer, Blitz

I'll almost definitely be going just to have an excuse for a couple of days off of work (pizza making) and uni :)

Sad news for Sumea...

I have decided to no longer attend the Indie. Game Developers Conference this year, partly because I have no-one to go with, and partly because I'm buying me a new guitar!

I still want a shirt though, and will definately go next year...

bollocks kane, you could meet up with the rest of the sumea crew and join the hijinks! (well... the only thing ive heard along those lines so far is that joel promised me hed come in a bunny suit but theres sure to be more!!! err EXTREME HIJINKS!! *guitar noise*)

yeh...it would be good as to go...but just look at this guitar!

[url]http://www.epiphone.com/default.asp?ProductID=3&CollectionID=1[/url]

now, if you were obsessed with fire and guitars, would you choose this, or the Conference?

if I had enough money I'd do both...bring my guitar along ang play yall some phat tunes...[:D]

Nice axe [;)]. Beats my Fender Squier.

thanks! [:D] *it shall be mine, oh yes...*

also, it will be a couple of months before I have enough money to buy the thing, so I still may end up going to the conference...

wow sure beats my guitar (its a sammick)!!! but yeah im guesssing that thing carries quite a price tag.

yes indeed...its $1,399...[xx(]

I am just an old woman of ethnic culture trying to fing my long misplaced husband in the hussle of suburban tasmania, I might go..... but seeing as im your brother i dont count, do i?

you retard...[:D]

Are you both coming to the conference?

im going to, but not my brother...

Hey I might go, when and how much?

check out the Sumea home page...

does that have prices of airfares to melbourne? [:D]

you mule...

Swim.
CYer, Blitz

now THATS a good idea...[:D]

To all developers in Tasmania,

Please don't forget that we are offering subsidies for those who are travelling interstate. There haven't been much takers so far as I don't think many people realise that they are eligible.

Please contact the office via email or phone, details are in the main conference thread.

Im only a student tho so I woulnd't get it would I?

i did qantm about a year ago.
You are only going to get out what you put in. I know very little of AIE, but i would imagine the same holds true.

Take note, this is NOT a bad thing, if you work hard then it is worth it. imo of course...

i was with shiva at qantm last year - and ill be a picky prick about it - true enough youll get out what you put in - but i believe that a learning institute should be there to giuve you a push into doing more - so you get more out - not just leaving you to do it if you wish.

qantms location was ok - however if you dont mind sitting in a class of 25 odd students with one lecturer and 15 students all asking questions,.. and you being 7th of 8th in line , waiting for like 2 hours before the lecturer gets to you for help, only having just recieving help and your class for today is almost over, then qantm is fine.

From what i hear - the student intake has boomed so youll be looking at about 30 students per lecturer [:S] and dont expect to good of a morale from the poor lecturers having to take on more students than they can handle [;)]

Heres hoping this doesn't turn into a Qantm flame again.

I believe Shiva's fundamentaly right, you are an adult and as such the master of your own destiny.
That being said, yes, you should be in a professionally structured course with good avenues of communication, but that definately doesn't mean AIE or QANTM should spoon feed you as alot of past students have wanted.

Hazard:

quote:but i believe that a learning institute should be there to give you a push into doing more - so you get more out - not just leaving you to do it if you wish.

Too a large degree I believe your right, you are learning and should be in a environment were that is nutured but they shouldn't have to spoon feed every student into doing some work or helping themselves,I can tell you there were many times I was left to do my own thing at QANTM, the thing is I proactively found things to do and told management about the issuses I had with being left to my own devices.

quote:however if you dont mind sitting in a class of 25 odd students with one lecturer and 15 students all asking questions,.. and you being 7th of 8th in line , waiting for like 2 hours before the lecturer gets to you for help, only having just recieving help and your class for today is almost over, then qantm is fine.

If you are in a classroom with 25 people and not being heard, you might just have to speak louder, its not meant to be like High school, its not meant to be easy, try going to Uni with 50 students etc in a lecture, heres another idea, instead of sitting there waiting, get up, go to the lecturer and tell him you have been waiting for 4 hours and really need some of his time.

If you want to get the most out of a course you need to put 150% in to every thing you do.
AIE or QANTM or University are much the same, its what you put in that matters, if you feel you are being screwed then talk to management don't wait til the end of the course and whinge like alot have.

Now to Spagetos question, finally. [:P]

I haven't been to AIE or UNI but I have heard good things about both, it mainly depends on were you live in my opinion, if your in Brisbane and feel you have limited time maybe give QANTM a go as the courses are shorter, if you have the luxury of time try get a place at Uni, its not necessarily better but its around 3 years to QANTM's 1 year, if down south replace QANTM with AIE. [:)]

Thanks Malus. I have been to uni and used to sit in lectures with literally hundreds of other students, so 25-30 - while not ideal given the nature of the subjects - sounds okay. I also agree that you get out what you put in. Again, using uni as an example, many of the lecturers had little contact with students outside of giving lectures and marking exams, so it was sink or swim. What I'm really interested in, though, is the content of the Qantm / AIE courses - how basic or advanced was the subject matter? Did you end up graduating with the knowledge that would enable you to walk into a job?

good question...i was pondering whether or not to go to AIE, so im interested in an answer to that too...by the way, i chose to go to Uni...

i wouldnt say walk...... i completely agree with Dean all round, you definately will get out what you put in, if you suck the lecturers dry, and dont mind climbing all over people to be noticed - then youll increase your chances of obtaining golden knowledge that lets ya "walk" into a job, basically what ive found is that if you can display the talent thats required by a specific job - uve got a better chance than a guy who cant - yet has a diploma / degree.

Hazard - at Qantm, did you do the diploma or the degree? What's the difference (I don't want to do another degree if I can help it, but I do want to get the animation skills I need to be a gun)?

i did the diploma - im an artist but i did the diploma of IT which was a coding course, i basically did it for purposes of understanding what needs to be built from a codeing perspective, id say i learnt a helluva lot - and also figured out why coders and artists are always at each others throats and always point fingers at one another :D - my fiancee did the diploma as well but went down the animation path - she said the best thing out of qantm was the fact that your in an environment where every other person is doing the same thing as you are - and that way you do learn alot and in some cases more from just being 'IN' with everyone else.

The degree course is a whole bunch more in depth - the diploma which was my course was a really hectic year - lots of things packed into 1 year. also its still a bit broad for me, the report i got back from my fiancee is that the animation course at qantm is about 75 / 25 % towards screen production and high poly work - NOT low poly game stuff. but then again that was last year now - maybe it has changed a bit.

The best thing i would say to do man is to rock into qantm and ask to have a look around the palce so you can see what kinda environment it is - see which place feels more like home to you :D then just go with your instincts.

Thanks HazarD. Yep, I'll ask the powers that be. Feedback from real, live students is always better though! [:)]

Just on the topic of waiting in line for tutors etc... I learnt absolutely shitloads from other students in the class - dont forget, everyone has a skill in something else. Learn from your peers too - they'll be the ones giving you a leg up in a couple of years time (or vice versa).

100 % agree with JKerr in that one - thats exactly what my fiancee said in her animation course - she came out learning more from being around other people than from the actual tutors there.

The Qantm courses have changed every year afaik, so no-one can tell you exactly what it will be like, but they are at least trying to improve.

But it always comes down to how much you put in (especially in your own time, I know that most of the people that got jobs are 100% devoted to games), how much you pay attention, how much you talk to and learn from others (be it peers or lecturers).

I totally agree with John also, if it wasn't for like-minded students who had skills that I was lacking I wouldn't have learnt nearly as much as I did.

I posted this under the "game development courses" on monday:

There are more important things in life than "getting into the games industry before you're 21".

Such as developing to your full potential as a creative and aware human being.

The technical training institutions are about "getting in quick", and they don't provide much of an education at all. Sure they help people learn to make tight models, textures and animations, but technique is only part of being an artist, and it is the easy part.

What about making good content? I mean something that is really going to touch people and will stay with them for the rest of their lives. A masterwork.

I haven't made one yet (I've formally studied jazz guitar, classical composition, and music technology, as well as computer science), but I strive towards it.

To create a masterwork you have to transcend technique. For an exceptionally gifted musician this normally takes around 20 years of constant practice. It seems to be about the same for visual artists too. Most people never manage it, and I have only for brief moments.

Commercial companies aren't interested in masterworks, or in artworks that challenge people or make them think- they are interested in sales. Look at Hollywood movies- lots of technique and bugger all content, and I have to turn my brain off to watch one. Look at what comes out of the games-training colleges too.

At the AIE one of the staff expressed the view that what is wrong with high arts is that content and concept have replaced technical expertise. I mostly agree actually- there are a lot of truly technically bad examples of the high arts out there. But in the commercial arts technique has replaced content and concept- it doesn't say much at all except "look how flashy I am" and "buy me".

Why do you think the term "eye candy" started being used? Candy is mass-produced junk food loved by children, and is mostly made from sugar with artificial colours and flavours. Sometimes even the sugar is fake.

Which is worse: bad technique and an interesting work or good technique and an empty work?

To make a really worthwhile artwork requires technique, concept, and content. The technical training institutions make no attempt at teaching two thirds of the equation.

If you are impatient perhaps training rather than education is what you want. But if you are truly gifted it is the wrong path, your impatience could cause you to miss developing to your full potential as a creative and aware human being, and you may not create the works you could have.

I can present a very strong argument that the entire entertainment industry is the wrong path for the truly gifted (especially in Australia), but this post and forum is not the place for it.

Firstly, the games industry is still young / music has been around for generations... you simply cannot compare the 2 - the computer game industry is a mere child in comparison, so you simply cannot expect there to be ANY masters with decades of experience who TRANSCEND technique in computer game art. and even if there was these MASTERS that you speak of, they would be unsatisfied due to the technology not being able to reproduce their MASTERWORKS, on screen.

Secondly, regardless of whether your gifted or not, its the passion of wanting to be in the industry that drives the individual - someone can be an incredibly talented artist but choose to make a career out of being a tunaboat fisherman, simply because his heart lies with the sea and catching fish.

Thirdly - i do agree with you regards spending time in actually learning about how to create good content, but this goes back to my first statement of the industry being too young, even the concept artists and modellers for SquareSoft / Square Enix will not reach the stage your speaking of for a good few years, but already they are as close to MASTERS as anyone else could possibly be.

All in all i think thats a pretty disheartining post Lorien, especially for the people whos hearts are in Creating games, NOT becoming someone that can produce a MASTERWORK.

I am sorry but to a large extent I take affront to your statements.

Most of your statements come across tainted by your not necessarily shared view of the validity of art.
In my opinion, there is value in the purely cool. Art does not have to have meaning it be valid, aesthetics can be valid unto themselves.
So you think that making art that lacks message is less then it can be and that commercial art by default falls into this category, that is your opinion and you have a right to it but you must realize the volatile and potently insulting nature of comments like.

quote:There are more important things in life than getting into the games industry before you're 21.
Such as developing to your full potential as a creative and aware human being

The obvious inference being that those who do strive to get into the games industry before turning 21 have not achieved their potential as creative and aware human beings.

quote:Look at what comes out of the games-training colleges too

Nice blind insulting stab in the dark.

quote:If you are impatient perhaps training rather than education is what you want. But if you are truly gifted it is the wrong path, your impatience could cause you to miss developing to your full potential as a creative and aware human being, and you may not create the works you could have.

Both an insult to those who have undergone this path as well as a gross generalization ?But if you are truly gifted it is the wrong path? with no facts to back up your statement .

In short you have posted on an industry site comments that are bound to enflame people due to their insulting nature and comments that seem based on an egotistically driven ?understanding? of what is required to create good works of art as well what is required to be ?a creative and aware human being.? As a consequence I?m not sure what your actual intent in this post was.

Pantmonger

I Can Agree to what has been said by all parties, I hate to admit. Lorien though that is true that education is a fast track to skills, Mastering as you put it, is something that EXPERIENCE brings. Something that can not be taught.
Teaching students, is a process of teaching people to learn and extend oneself. The drive that drives most people to extend themselves is that of the excitment of being the next Carmack, or romero or any number of there idealised developers.
What drives these people further towards their goal, is there passion to make games that rival their Favourite games, made by there favourite developers.
What would happen if a person who hates platform games designed one and a publisher published it. My Gaw. would it be the biggest load of #### out there.
With out this enthusiasm for music, movies, games, art, what have you! there would be no Giger, there would be no hendrix. And if that means they dive in Pre 21. so be it they get Kudos for getting more experience then you. An the become the new Carmack (though I doubt to see this happening anytime soon.)
I do admit at this time games are Dull, games lack excitment, games are repetitive and more formulaic at the moment, this will change. At the moment all industry's including the music industry is moving towards a comercialist existance, this formula worked for spice girls lets re hash it.. why wont it work now mentality.
I myself am currently doing a masters, YES, a masters in IT, and my focus for this is goint to be on Game Play - analysis, what makes a game fun. As currently i dont see anything fun in games, i see corporate giants trying to make fat wallets with repeatitive formula's.

My 2 Cents!

Point Experience is worth far more than teachings, but teachings get you closer to getting the experience.

BaaDf00d.

My thread has been sabotaged [:I]. But seeing as we have gone in this new direction, I'll add my 2 cents too.

Firstly, I don't think obtaining technical training and pursuing art are mutually exclusive. Whether it's music, writing, animation, computer games, whatever, you need to learn some technical skills before you can even create that piece of art. For example, you're not going to write a piece of literature if you don't know basic grammar. By the same token, unless you know you're way around a 3D animation program, you're not going to be able to create a 3D animation work of art.

So, somehow, you have to gain some technical skills. Sure, you could teach yourself, but there are big advantages in doing a course: you can learn things you wouldn't necessarily pick up on your own, and you can get objective, expert feedback.

Secondly, the "technical training institutions" (as you describe them) are not responsible for anyone's lifetime education, or their ability to create art. They are responsible for transferring a body of knowledge to the student, and it's up to the student to decide whether to learn more (beyond the course) and to pursue an artistic vision.

If you're indirectly comparing institutions like Qantm and AIE with more artistic oriented places like VCA and AFTRS (I'm thinking of animation here) then yes, the emphasis appears to be very different. Qantm and AIE seem to focus more on preparing students for working in the industry, while VCA and AFTRS seem to focus more on helping students create art. But at the end of the day, no school can create an artist - it might push the student more in that direction, but it's still up to the student to be imaginative, have a vision, and go for it. I'm sure there are students and graduates of Qantm and AIE (like yourself?) who will take the technical training they've gained and go and create a "masterwork", simply because they've got the burning talent and desire inside them.

I don't discredit the achievements of those that have entered the game industry at a young age, but I agree with Lorien on some points. Though his/her post was phrased slightly condescendingly...

A lot of employers look out for individuality and originality of concept combined with proficient technical execution.

While Lorien may be a bit off in comparing the young games industry to high art, that's not the point. The point is, as creators and 'artists' we should be striving to create the most original, compelling, content driven as well as technically proficient works as we can. Regardless of how young the industry is.

That's what's going to differentiate you from the rest of the fanboys busy rendering spaceships flying through space and mechs that look like second rate rehashes of the hundreds of sci fi games and anime films.

Really, anyone can learn the software. People are so strung up on learning all the techy aspects of this industry. "What 3d app do you use?" "Do you use a wacom" "What graphics program do you use?" etc...

In the end they're all just tools, a means to an end. I think what Lorien is getting at is that there seems to be an unbalanced focus towards the technical when really, a lot of fundamentals are being overlooked.

Things like narrative, story telling ability, illustration skills, lighting skills, visual communication skills and of course, the ability to break from the mould (to work through all the bad ideas). All things you can learn away from the computer regardless of what latest 3d renderer or app you used. Truly, there are a lot of people out there that draw their inspiration simply from playing other games (3d, concept art, game design etc). While it may make sense to do so, it doesn't bring anything new to the table, it just repackages old ideas. (how many sci fi FPS games are there? Anyone up for a fantasy MMORPG? Sigh)

I know with postmodernism, everything is recycled these days. But I think in the game industry, there's still a significant amount of new and creative ideas to be explored, and that's why it's up to us to always be striving for the highest level of mastery regardless of how young the Australian games industry is.

A naive perspective in an industry that is really about creating a commercial product for profit, but hey, I can at least hope we can all continue to work passionately. :)

There's always going to be a compromise between creativity and commercial goals (IE: Creating something that sells). Of course we wont always get to create a beautiful masterwork of our own ideas, but being able to express and deliver a content filled, well executed work is a very valuable skill to have and a very rewarding one too.

I think that's what Lorien means between the difference between learning our respective field as an art and being 'pumped out' by a technical training college.

Anyway, hope this all makes sense...

"Commercial companies aren't interested in masterworks, or in artworks that challenge people or make them think- they are interested in sales. Look at Hollywood movies- lots of technique and bugger all content, and I have to turn my brain off to watch one. Look at what comes out of the games-training colleges too."

A good way to verbalise this is the "cool" syndrome. Characteristically summed up by the majority of effects stuff coming out of hollywood. How many times have you heard someone say "Wow that is so cool".

But really, what does it mean? What other purpose is there for such an elaborately rendered shot other than to show off how 'cool' it looks? Does it push the narrative along, does it help build tension or character development? No, it's just a superflous exercise in demonstrating the concept of 'cool'.

I'm not against magnificent technical ability, but when it's all at the sake of good content and coherence, then it's just not worth it. What's the point of a short 3d animated film? To have the most sophisticated shot with millions of objects animating at once? No. It's to convey a narrative. While it's 3d animated, at the end of the day, it is still a FILM.

Think back to the original Pixar shorts. I can't remember the name of it, but it consisted of a lamp and a ball. That's IT. Yet it works so beautifully because it wonderfully uses film language to build tension and ultimately, an engaging narrative that entertains the viewer. Nothing elaborate. Simple, succint, excellent.

The Matrix is the best example of something gone wrong. Technically, freaking beautiful. That final scene with the battle in zion, jaw dropping technically. But the 2nd and 3rd movie were pretty terrible and after 15 mins of robots blasting each other I was yawning and wondering just when would the narrative move forward? Engaging and meaningful? No. Eye candy? Yes.

While you might say cool stuff is still good and eye candy always entertains, why just strive for shallow level entertainment when we all have the potential to make both meaningful and well executed works??

I agree with you jason - what i was trying to get across in my last post was simply this.

For anyone to be good at something, they most likely have got there through experience ( some yes are naturally gifted in some areas, but majority speaking )

The only way to get experience is being able to create something using the tools we need to create the masterwork. being that the technology and everything used in the computer games industry is relatively young compared to other industrys, we only have a few years of experience to hand down to the future generations, as opposed to something like music, which has generations.

quote:Originally posted by Pantmonger
Art does not have to have meaning it be valid, aesthetics can be valid unto themselves.

I don't think he was saying that at all, after all aesthetics for their own sake is centuries old by now in the so called high arts (and i'm only talking about critical reception here..i believe the people who actually make art have always recognised purely aesthetic appeal)
I think he was just making a point about the relative sophistication of said aesthetic(s)..not resorting to cliches, trying to avoid the commonplaces of expression etc.

As to there being no masters of computer games, i disagree. I'll even nominate one: Anyone played 'Calendra's Legacy' by Anthony Huso (aka 'Purah') for Thief 2? I'd rate it higher than virtually any commercial game i've played in terms of artistic and literary quality, and on par with much fantasy literature in quality of story-telling.
Master Pros: Looking Glass Studios. Shame they're no longer operating.

quote:Originally posted by lorien

There are more important things in life than "getting into the games industry before you're 21".
Such as developing to your full potential as a creative and aware human being.

For you maybe, some of us here find it to be our calling and want to develop our potential within that context, get of your high horse.

quote:Originally posted by lorien

The technical training institutions are about "getting in quick", and they don't provide much of an education at all.

Nice open ended, general assumption there. It took me quite a few years to get my foot in even with training, can't say I took the easy way in.

quote:Originally posted by lorien

Sure they help people learn to make tight models, textures and animations, but technique is only part of being an artist, and it is the easy part.

Well isn't that the biggest, most obvious, comment of all time.
Of course they only teach technique, they are technical colleges!!They don't have 20 year courses, doesn't make it less valid.
I won't feel totally comfortable calling myself a true artist for years, I am constantly learning, does that mean I should have been 85 years old before I dared to get into games industry and call my work art?

quote:Originally posted by lorien

What about making good content? I mean something that is really going to touch people and will stay with them for the rest of their lives. A masterwork.

Don't paint the whole industry with the same brush my friend, its naive, and just plain rude. Yes there is a glut of stupid repedetive games out there but there are those striving for pefection also, just like the music, film and literature fields.

quote:Originally posted by lorien

I haven't made one yet (I've formally studied jazz guitar, classical composition, and music technology, as well as computer science), but I strive towards it.

So how about you do before telling a whole industry they are no good.

quote:Originally posted by lorien

To create a masterwork you have to transcend technique. For an exceptionally gifted musician this normally takes around 20 years of constant practice. It seems to be about the same for visual artists too. Most people never manage it, and I have only for brief moments.

Yawn...exactly what every art teacher will tell you. tell us something we don't already know.

quote:Originally posted by lorien

Commercial companies aren't interested in masterworks, or in artworks that challenge people or make them think- they are interested in sales. Look at Hollywood movies- lots of technique and bugger all content, and I have to turn my brain off to watch one. Look at what comes out of the games-training colleges too.

I think you'll find alot of commercial companies would love to make games that really delve into the emotions of the players. Maybe you need to point that accussing finger at narrow minded publishers instead?

quote:Originally posted by lorien

Which is worse: bad technique and an interesting work or good technique and an empty work?

They are both bad...your point?

quote:Originally posted by lorien

To make a really worthwhile artwork requires technique, concept, and content. The technical training institutions make no attempt at teaching two thirds of the equation.

And I don't see them alluding to be teaching it either, they teach technique so that an artist can comfortable use software to express there own ideas.

quote:Originally posted by lorien

I can present a very strong argument that the entire entertainment industry is the wrong path for the truly gifted (especially in Australia), but this post and forum is not the place for it.

I don't know what makes you an expert on what makes someone truly gifted but if you have a insightful, meaningful argument then don't just say it.

Present it.

One final thing, I know quite alot of traditional artists that are making a good to great living as artists and are respected in their chosen fields.
Not one of them looks down on or thinks badly of the artists in the games industry, in fact alot say that if the money wasn't so good in what they are doing they would love to have the chance to bring their art to life as I get the chance to do.

Yes they comment on the lack of real story and depth in alot of games but they also do that for hollywood, the literary world, music and especially high art which are all full of fake, unimaginative, repetative posing pieces.

2 to the game developers and the industry, 0 to lorien :P
[:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!][:(!]

quote:If you are impatient perhaps training rather than education is what you want. But if you are truly gifted it is the wrong path, your impatience could cause you to miss developing to your full potential as a creative and aware human being, and you may not create the works you could have.

What about if your are both impatient and gifted. What if i live by myself and want to get in the game industry just after graduating from a technical institute. Do you want me to work at coles and in my spare time perfect my art. NOOO!!! I spoke with a guy from wicked witch yesterday and he says it can take years for you to become completly efficient with a program like max. So according to you i should graduate, work at coles for half a century before even considering getting a job in the games industry.

What you did was you came in to a game developers site and you told every wannabe artist and professional artist that they aren't truely talented just cos they didn't wait till they got grey hair or went bold before applying for an artist position.

Also your comment about Tech Institutes being the easy way in can't be anymore wrong. In the game industry i dont' think there is an easy way in. People with a gazillion degrees still dont have a quick way in.

To sum up artists according to you there is no such thing as a young artist, only people with experiance can be artists. I suggest that you go to jistyles website, look at his age and his work. I suggest you go to doords website look at his age and his work. I suggest you go to the sumea challenge and check out the entries and the age of the entrants. Then wait till you are fifty and try and top them, i bet you couldn't.
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3 to the game developers and the industry, 0 to lorien :P

Moderators anywhere?

While we are off the subject. Lorien is simply promoting that people should consider carefully what art can mean, he just has a different interpretation of what qualifies as artistry. Okay, a fair bit of his post is high horse crap, and some of it highly presumptuous, some of it is plain wrong, but honestly is it worth having another bitch fest about? You have all put everything he said in the worst possible context that you can come up with - like fuel to a deep-set psychological trauma that instigates a desire to bitch.

If he had put 'maybe' and 'possibly' about four hundred times in his post would you guys be happy then because you would no longer be able to interpret everything as a personal attack???

Well I'm glad I've stirred up something :) No insults or anything like that were intended btw.

Pantmonger I have no problem with you taking affront. I'm not saying "this is how things are", I'm saying "this is how things appear to me", and debate is healthy. Thanks for contributing, I don't mind being flamed, so long as it constructive flaming.

"Nice blind insulting stab in the dark.": have a read of
http://www.erasmatazz.com/library/Game%20Design/The_Education_of_a_Game…
it is by Chris Crawford, who is one of the "godfathers" of game design. Enter "Chris Crawford" and "game" into google.

Read what I wrote again, and try not to get angry :) I have explained why it is the wrong path. Has to do with sales v/s full-on works.

I see Jason has understood what I was saying, though I'm not discrediting anyone. Everyone has choices, but 21 is very young, and there is a lot more of the world to see and experience, and imho better works are made after having experienced some of it.

"I think that's what Lorien means between the difference between learning our respective field as an art and being 'pumped out' by a technical training college."

Thanks Jason, that's it.

0xBaaDf00d: Hendrix had very sloppy technique, but he was an absolutely amazing musician. Training is fast-track without understanding, education is slower-track with more understanding, but with both you get out what you put in. IMHO any undergrad education is not enough to make games.

spageto: you got it too, however just whose interests do you think an industry created traning college is going to serve? Yours? The industry used to provide on-the-job training, but of course this costs them money. Persuading you to line up to pay for training that used to be provided is not in your best interests!

I find it amusing that the AIE only show Hail in their Dip Comp Game Dev gallery, when all the Hail programmers were university educated. And I find it amusing that leaving the "www." out of their URL takes you to the MicroForte web site. Try it: http://aie.act.edu.au

Cutty: I like your chice of games :) But things are changing too- do you know about Escape From Woomera? http://escapefromwoomera.org or acmipark? http://www.acmi.net.au/acmipark.jsp

I'm not saying either are masterworks at all, but they are much more "art" oriented than sales oriented.

I worked on acmipark.

Malus:

"For you maybe, some of us here find it to be our calling and want to develop our potential within that context, get of your high horse."

Fine, if that's what you want. I wonder how you'll feel about it in 10-15 years time. If getting into training was hard then just wait... (I'm not bitching btw, I've turned down several games jobs recently because I just don't want them).

And as for being on my "high horse": Telling me this indicatetes you're on one yourself. Do you have something being showcased at the GDC? I do right now. And I'm presenting my own work at a major international games conference next month.

And I'm completely independent of the games industry.

As for painting the industry with the same brush, IMHO Thief 2 comes closest to having good content, but still... Companies are about making money, and that is fairly mutually exclusive with content. Can you immagine a commercial company making Esacpe from Woomera?

"I think you'll find alot of commercial companies would love to make games that really delve into the emotions of the players. Maybe you need to point that accussing finger at narrow minded publishers instead?"

Fair enough, but this stuff doesn't come out as mods, expansions or even easter eggs. But I agree that publishers are much worse than studios for encouraging mediocrity.

And I don't look down on artists in the games industry. Nor programmers.

BTW I'm going to present my argument. Come to the indy conference.

####

I didn't mean this to be taken as flames. I have big problems with technical training for the games industry, I'm a scholarship winning grad of the AIE, and this seemed like a relevent place to post.

I have plenty of education and technical training behind me, rather than just one or the other, I'm old enough (31) to be able to stand back from it, and the commercial training institutions thrive on hyping theselves. Look at this as a break from the hype.

Hi folks.

Just a quick word of "advice".

Anyone going into the games industry with the back of their hand firmly planted on their forehead moaning about great art and transcending majestic visions blah blah blah...is going to get themselves booted up the ass real quick.

"Games Industry". It's two words people. Games are a unique, new and deep artform that we've only just scratched the surface of. Everyone here loves games and what they are capable of as a medium. My team (and everyone at my company) are tremendously gifted and creative people and it's great that they can express themselves so well. But it's an industry, too. If you're put to work on a FPS (for example)...well, no amount of bitching about how FPS are derivitave and boring and we should be making a yoga simulator instead is going to change things. Make it the best FPS you can given the constraints.

Back to the topic. I liked QANTM. There were a lot of students there that had similar notions to the poster who started this argument about how things would be better if they were in charge, but didn't want to, well...you know, work or anything. Go in there, use every resource you can, and make something that will turn heads.

And Mr. Monger: Half the problem is with the publishers, yes, but the other half is the mainstream who LIKE buying the same familiar thing over and over again. :)

High horse offensive crap. I am only in high school and i am getting offended. I can only imagine how offended the people who went through a technical college and are employed would be.

Maitrek: Your right, as a Mod I should know better than responding to flame bait.

Lorien: Fair enough, maybe I took your comments the wrong way but too some degree you really can't blame anyone when you didn't voice your opinion in a concise, well thought manner, to be honest it was full of holes and came off very unfriendly.

I am currently working in the industry and no I do not have something showing in GDC, does that make me less talented? I don't believe so. But good luck with yours, its obviously important to you.

No unfortunately, I won't be at the conference, I'll be too busy working and trying to refine my skills.

even though I still totally disagree with the outlook you are taking on the industry I do apologise for getting personal .

Gazunta: I agree totally.
Spageto: Sorry for highjacking your thread.

The lines got to be drawn somwhere - lorien, youre no different from Mr Anderson delving into the depths of the matrix rabbit hole.

Some people dont need everything justified with purpose and fact. they are just happy to live there lives doing what they want to do and how they want to do it.

What your bordering on entering is a psychological debate, something which doesnt really have a place @ sumea IMHO.

Having said all that - your only expressing your oppinion, which as offensive as it may be to others, is STILL your oppinion, and i do respect that. Just quickly click on MALUS's nickname next to his post - and read the quote under " My Favourite Quote " i think that applies here.

The other thing, why must you post something like "ive turned down several games job's recently, because i just dont want them" and then make a comment like " no insults were intended btw " at the beginning of the post. - A great deal of the forum members im sure would LOVE to be in that situation, but they arent, and saying something so casually im sure is only going to spark more debate, or induce ignorance.

cool stuff - I remember it well... or at least the fake breasts at the start, remember that well. And something about a sloth...

A very nice game, indeed. But can anyone give me a hint not featured in most walkthroughs? I know from a walkthrough that I have to put two pieces of paper together in the end (rocket plan and comic page) to get a construction plan, but they won't do so, no matter what i try.

That's definately a question Steve or John should be able to answer. If you're lucky they might pop in and let you know. [;)]

well id be glad to have my rant and rave about Qantm, ill put my hand up for sure but im not quite sure what you need of me souri [;)], is it going to be a questionaire or somethnig like that , or do we just post our experiences to this thread ?

I'd be interested to talk about stuff at AIE :)

*edit* Thought I would add that I am a current student. Second year programmer in the game dev stream.

Hazard, it's for the Independant Game Developers Conference that's happening in May at Melbourne this year. You'll have to come along and join a panel for discussion if you're interested!

Great stuff, Jacana [:)]. I will let the organisers know! Anyone else interested?

damn - cant make it [:(] wish i could tho..........

i missed the first couple of minutes, but man that is heaps funny!

"harvie got struck by lightning" ...haha

that was a good watch.

It was sweet.

Scott.

watched it all, loved it, the facial expressions and bizzare story line were fantastic.

I thought it was great. Great story telling, and very amusing [:)] Did anyone catch the creator on Enough Rope with Andrew Denton on the same night? It was mentioned that a days worth of work resulted in 3 seconds of animation, I think...

yeah one of my faveourite movie is the nightmare before christmas which is a stop motion flick. Ive got the DVD with the making of and they gave a similar number

I remember nightmare b4 christmas, it was a bout a skeleton who looked like the guy of medievel, the PS game wasn't it.

dont know about the likeness to whoever you mentioned but the main character was a skeleton yes.

man that image of harveys mum with her hands waving about abover her head while making those gibberish noises just cracks me up every time i bring it into mind :P

Yee, that was awesome! Caught it after life drawing, and am rather considering picking up the DVD. Just a class bit of story it be.

Trailer is great! You can see a variety of end of level bosses in, some of which are pretty damn huge [:)]. Graphics are awesome and smooth!

Yeha i saw the trailer, looks mad, i love the massive bosses, it's goin on my to get list.

The transformers looks really nice. I suppose one of the advantages of working with kinda blocky models like transformers is you can put more polys into details instead of trying to make things look round.
Pity there wasn't more in-game sound on the movie though. If i'm gonna be running big metal machines around i wanna hear the footsteps go THUDCLANGCRUNCH :)
CYer, Blitz

The gameplay and graphics look really nice, but the camera looks kinda close to the characters. Does it hinder gameplay at all Zaph?

I'm really hoping that this game is good. There have been so many disapointing Transformers games over the years :(

Just noticed Softimage are using Transformers as part of their XSI4 promotion...
http://www.softimage.com/home/press/pressreleases/040511_atari.htm

First off I would say get your year 12 certificate. If nothing else these sorts of things show you are willing to get something done. Besides in a field with people who have full on art degrees etc you need to make sure you look the best you can (even if you are talented).

I am not sure what you mean by no fees. I know that AIE isn't giving away free courses :)

Yeah i know what you mean about AIE not giving away free courses. Its kind of strange really in a way i swear they made an error in the CIT 04' book, i highly doubt that they would have no requirement either... im sure they wouldnt accept anything below Year 11...

Anyhow thanks for the advice, looks like i'll have to teach myself Animation like i taught myself VB and PHP (I cheated for PHP because i bought two books [:p]. Anyone know a good animation program that has a 30 day trial or is free? I was thinking maybe Adobe After Effects but of course i dont have $1000 or more on hand just for the standard edition... so anyone know any good freebies or cheapies that are good, or someone willing to donate [:p].

macromedia flash has a 30 day trial i believe.. well it used to 'back in the day' (nearly 5 years ago)..

It was a great tool at the time, it taught me the basics of keyframe animation - which is pretty much the most important thing to learn in regards to animation. We learnt it in college, but for the most part our teachers were tutorial monkeys.. Ask them anything that didn't come in the first 5 tutorials, and they were pretty clueless.. As I recall, the helpfiles were very helpful and easy to learn from.

The other thing that was helpful in learning how to animate was my year 10 maths class. Those huge text-books they give you at the start of each year are awesome for flipbooks.. I'm pretty crap at maths, though.

I don't know how choosey the AIE is either.. I think if you have money for the course, you should be pretty safe.

Wow! Its like a legend that keeps going on! It seems every year those big text books get converted to a successful small animation [:p], everyone does it too. Im kind of annoyed though, the new text books for next year are equipped with interactive CD's that are probably very helpful!

Dont worry Bob im the worst when it comes to Maths (I generally get a 65% average [:p]) but atleast you can do 3D models (Which requires a fair bit of maths i would think), im still confused a bit about the X,Y and Z axis in 3DS Max even with the two books i got for it from a very special member on Sumea [:)].

As for the AIE... i'll try contacting about the course and then see if my school would enable me to take one day a week off school too study their (Hey they let some students do courses at CIT on school days!).

Cheers!

haha you don't need any maths for modelling, at least, I've never needed any.
The people that made max are dumbasses as well.. The z axis isn't up!!!

As for the text books, they really need to convert that shit onto computers.. So much paper wasted by stupid kids (I was one of them) when, if it was done on computer by cd, no wasteage is done.

I think the interactive CD's have all the stuff in the books on the CD. The book is just there for when the students are in class or dont have access to a computer.

Ignore the CIT handbook aboutanything AIE related. They don't know dick. When I found out about the AIE in high school (from a PC Powerplay Issue), I had a look in the CIT booklet about what pre-recs I needed. They said that you needed to have a major in both Maths and English. College time rolled around and I studied those courses. Hated them, did pretty damn bad, and then found out that you don't need any pre-recs :/ There are people who have gone there who don't know very much about art, and there are those who had very little knowledge of comps as well. There was one guy who had never used a comp before in his life. He learnt very quickly :)

If you are aiming for Electronic 2D Animation, then don't worry too much about learning any apps. Bob said that maths book and the such are great for animation, and he is right. Learning a program isn't that hard. It just takes time. The most difficult part is learning the rules of animation. It doesn't matter if you practice on paper, 2D or 3D. As long as you have a good understanding of motion and weight, you should be pretty much right.

Good luck with whatever it is you wish to study. Just keep on practicing :)

Just wondering tbag, you in Melbourne, as i have the Maths book with the C.D too.?

I didn't go, it clashed with other things I was doing.. *edit* why the hell did I post this.. I did want to go though.. Who went? How was it? Did anyone sledge daz ? :D

What am I wearing? A thong, and one of those old british navy hats.

I wanted to go to. But i couldnt due to several reasons and clashings [:p].

I wonder if anyone went or got some pics?

I went.

Just seems to cover the basics of it, nothing that I didn't already know...

It's alright as an overview illustrating some key points of this thing called "game development".

Why dont we have some of our former students who now work in the industry talk a bit about what they did and see if any of the suggestions from the like above were used by them :)

That would be a good idea, and even though I'm not in the industry yet (I would've been...) I can add that persistence pays off, not necessarily contacting them every day, or flooding their inboxes with mail, but just being persistent and keeping in contact works...

Now for some other contributions? Maybe even if they are just anecdotal - if we get enough it might become a well known fact.

I'll let you know in about a week if telling your interviewers that you hate companies like theirs in an interview is a good or bad idea :P
CYer, Blitz

my personal golden rule I tell anyone that asks - learn that it's not "The Industry" and realise you're going for a job, not a privelaged status. Be yourself in an interview, since you're going to be working with these people - they don't want to hire some stiff emotionless and humourless person that most people think is proper interview protocol.

Work your butt off! And I mean really, not just on rainy weekends, I went to sleep around 3-4am for 8 months getting my portfolios done!! I wouldn't recommend that but my determination paid off in the end.
Get a decent portfolio together and send it out..to everyone. Ring, visit, ring, ring.
Accept (and listen to) the knockbacks and don't give up.

I would be making a new portfolio the minute I sent out the first one etc, you don't want to show the same work twice, no matter how good you think it is, if it was good enough you'd have the job. [:P]

Most of all, and this may seem harsh but really ask yourself, am I good enough, do I really want this? Because a game job isn't as luxurious and bling bling as everyone makes out, its hard work, sometimes with little reward or acknowledgment.

If your answer is hell yes!!, then your half way there, determination and enthusiasm will show through in both your work and attitude. [:)]

I think one of the main things to do when you get knocked back is at least give them a call or email later on afterwards and ask what you did wrong, or how you could improve yourself for next time.

Not specifically about the games industry but on topic. Two years ago I was made redundant from my IT job, the company was changing direction and my skill set was no longer needed.

In the exit interviews I was the only one to ask "What would I have to learn to stick with the company?" I still lost my job but 2 months later I got asked back. Partly because the company had shot itself in the foot by losing all that skill, but mainly because i was the only one who a willingness to accomodate change.

Back in the bad old days when I was pimping a folio and demo reel I'd get knock backs which were basically "Nice work, but it has a lot of X and we want Y". In hindsight I wish I had said "Give me a week and I'll show you I can do Y."

Showing you are skilled is good. Showing you are flexible and self motivated, in any industry, is even better.

Very well said jwalducky, couldn't agree more.

PS. It seems to work out quite well :)
CYer, Blitz

heh i just walked into the loo's behind just before that pic was taken, does that count? :P

Thats mainly just the frost team with about 4 or so other people from AIE.
I think i'm the head at the behind/between ian gibson (the guy standing on the left) and neil boyd (FBI shirt). Photo is too low res to tell, but i do remember that photo being taken and i did have a freshly shaved head at the time :)
I know a few of the other people in the photo but don't know if they are sumeans :)
CYer, Blitz