Industry and Education

Yep - it was really good. Pretty well organised too.

Did Ernest Adam's workshop on game design and got drunk pretty often too.

Will post more later.

I went too, and had an awesome time. Learned heaps from the lectures, some were quite eye opening, esp. Ernest Adams and two about girls and gaming. It was cool getting to meet lots of people too, i got to know some guys from Sidhe quite well. I did the Ernest Adams workshop too, pity I didn't meet you, I would have recognised your name.

I spent the whole conference there and had an excellent time. There were about 150 attendees made up of industry, academics, students and a smattering of government. Funnily enough, despite the diversity of the audience there didn't appear to be any barriers between the groups and everybody got along really well, meaning some very interesting conversations were had.

Some highlights included

- Shari Graner Ray from Sony Online talking about gender issues in gaming
- Ernest Adam's workshop (though I could only stay for the start)
- The panel session on effect of games on society including the NZ Chief Censor
- Seeing the enthusiasm, talent, and work of emerging companies and students
- The Eyetoy and Singstar competition where just about everybody had a go :)
- The food, consistent high quality and volume throughout

All of our team came back inspired and enthusiastic.

Looking forward to the next one already.

quote:Originally posted by Mario


All of our team came back inspired and enthusiastic.

That's great Mario, you couldn't ask for more... maybe we could take some pointers over here for ours [;)]

I think one of the best things is that there wasn't any divisions of streams. For eg - I've often had to choose between one seminar and another at AGDC, but this time, everyone could just go to the one talk. Obviously, this is due to the smaller scene in NZ, but I think it worked really well.

I did find it hard sitting still for 2 hours at a time. Haven't done that since uni.

Here's hoping it's in Wellington next year.

piece of paper isnt going to get you a job.
your work will.
just have to refine your skills.

just on a side note as well- i have friends that did a tafe multimedia course and they could have done it blindfolded.

Just checked your web site out... it all looks good.. I'm sorta inclined to say that all you need now is a larger volume of work, If I was you, I'd skip going to TAFE or uni (unless you want to learn 2d techniques).. lock yourself in your room and really start pumping out heappppps of stuff.. and not just weapons etc.. go sick on some enviroments and incidental items.. and I'm sure then you'll be able to overwhelm with some top work!

so you think i should put more stuff on my resume? i always thought less would be better, as they would contact me if they wanted more?

also incedental items such as trash cans computers etc?

well thats true... only put your best stuff up there.... all you want to do is to expand on some on the themes in your site.. move all you weapon models into one area.. etc.. and then create areas to cover character modelling etc...
I think i would like to see more unusual vehicle design.. like the hover craft etc....
also I feel putting up incomplete (complete I mean.. fully rigged and textured - possibly animated)
sorta looks like you gave up at the last hurdle.. if you know what I mean... not a big problem.. but if you fully polish a model, eg.. texture rigs.. etc.. it will give a much more professional feel to the work..
which can only have a positive reflection on yourself..

cheeersssss

yeah ok i see what you mean

yeah no worries.. I think its more about taking your work to the next level... :D

I am studying Max at www.madacademy.com.au , they have held course in S.A as well ( I am in Sydney).I have learnt more in 4 months than I did mucking around for three years!!!

yeah i did the max fundamentals course there i guess i could do more of those courses...

Hey man, your stuff is very good. I live in SA too and I am kind of in the same boat as you. I've done the same kind of courses and more and I'm still looking to get into the industry, so I am really working hard to get to the next level with my skills.
I think everybody is right here. You really need to spend late nights and long hours honing your skills etc, but some high level study such as the courses that you have done really gives you the stuff that you can't learn at home. Sure, potential employers want to see your best work before they give you the job but they would also like to see that you can work well with others in a team situation, have good time management and communication skills and that you can work to a brief. These are the things that studying has given you. In my opinion though, Tafe is the way to go for this rather than some of the private colleges. If you are interested in doing more study that WILL get you a job in games dev, might I suggest that you check out the news item that I posted about recently about the new games course starting at Tea Tree Gully TAFE. You may have seen this already and I can tell that it will be well worth your while doing this course. It leads to an Advanced Diploma in Design (game art) and is one of only 3 courses like this in the country. It is going to be huge for building up a very strong talent base of artist and programmers for South Australian game dev. Who knows, we might even see some more larger scale companies setting up offices in Adelaide.
I am already enrolled in this course and have quite alot of inside information on it all. I can also tell you that many game developers are watching this closely for potential recruits. So sign up if you haven't already.

end transmission

yeah ive enronlled in the course but missed out by a few days, so ill probley be in the jan 2005 start if i dont find a job by then :)

and my personal thoughts on this...

I doubt the guy has any chance. I'm told there are labour laws in California (and other places) that cover 'primarily intellectual' jobs which put them outside the overtime laws if they are salaried positions. The same kind of thing applies to management.
Still, you can't blame the guy for trying...
Perhaps he will argue that he was threatened with dismissal if he didnt work the overtime or something like that which might go further than simply not being paid per hour.

The article also says that VUG managers forced employees to falsify timesheets in order to prevent records of overtime. I would imagine that will greatly help his case; VU seems to be ignoring the fact that these employees were working overtime at all, not just refusing to pay for it.

quote:Originally posted by TheBigJ

The article also says that VUG managers forced employees to falsify timesheets in order to prevent records of overtime. I would imagine that will greatly help his case; VU seems to be ignoring the fact that these employees were working overtime at all, not just refusing to pay for it.

If thats true then I hope he wins. It's one thing to have a job with no paid overtime (most of us) - but it's another to be eligible and to have your work records falsified.

heheh... cooking the books... if thats true Vivendi is screwed

There's a discussion on [url="http://games.slashdot.org/games/04/06/30/1558238.shtml?tid=127&tid=186&…"]Slashdot on it[/url] too...

This quote from the reuters article has me intrigued...

quote:"According to the suit, Neil Aitken has been an "application programmer" at the company since February 2000, paid bimonthly on a 40-hour-a-week schedule though he said he and his colleagues regularly work more than 12 hours a day."

4 years is an awfully long time to be screwed over on overtime! What's the law on overtime in Australia actually? I know employers can give unpaid overtime with employees on a salary, but can you get some renumeration on overtime that lasts for months and months?

Anyway, it's interesting to read about game industry related court cases such as this, it's definately highlighting the shoddier practises that's happening.. There was that other case in Canada (I think) where a contract clause forbid employees leaving and working in the same industry for 3 months, and also Interplay not paying employees their wages, not giving them the required workers compensation insurance etc.

Weren't Vivendi under investigation for fixing their accounting details ala Enron a while ago?

quote:Weren't Vivendi under investigation for fixing their accounting details ala Enron a while ago?

Yes. In fact, VU has been in the media spotlight quite a bit lately also: [url]http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/06/21/world/main625007.shtml[/url]

I would like to think that if we are forced as programmers or other developers to work overtime before a milestone that we could at least be renumerated through a party or large lan or something after the milestone had been completed. Work overtime not all the time, but just before milestones.

quote:Originally posted by Daemin

I would like to think that if we are forced as programmers or other developers to work overtime before a milestone that we could at least be renumerated through a party or large lan or something after the milestone had been completed. Work overtime not all the time, but just before milestones.

And of course, if you worked *less* than 40 hours per week for the rest of the year you'd reward your employer - right ? :-)
Timekeeping is a double edged sword...

If I worked less than 40 hours per week for the rest of the year I would expect to be fired!

Overtime is okay if its necessary and over a short period (I'm talking crunch time like overtime, not like 1/2 an hour here or there). However having crunchtime overtime for months on end is: (a) A sure sign that the project is in the state of disaster, and (b) the people doing the overtime aren't going to be very happy...

(c) Burn everyone out, and get crap results for the work

i know alot of chicks that dont mind playing game but i know only a hand full that are any good at the more compeditive ones.. was proud tho taught my x how to play halo but she only like co op cause she had me helping her.. wuss?

and u are always suspicios of someone that plays online under a female avatar.... damn werdo's out there..

RasTus: If they're doing a decent job roleplaying then there's no problem, however if they're in it for the kink factor then that's definetly something to be worried about.

I don't know if i agree with that second quote, i'm sure that an artist is not necesarilly better represented by females, i think it's equally represented, and in this industry, probably better represented by male (No sexism intended).

Also, i only know of one chick that likes playing games, very sad i knkow, but that's only cos her boyfreinds a nerd. My sister doesn't mind a bit of sims now and then but i still wouldn't call her a gamer. I don't think times are changing at all, i still think it's extremely male dominated

It doesn't bother me either way. Same as any field. I think that both sexes should be welcomed anywhere. Pity female lingerie stores don't have the same attitude towards equal oppertunities and males :`(

My girlfriend will occassionally play a game. She isn't overly good as she doesn't practice. She puts that down to the attitude that girls shouldn't play games... I will slowly manage to change her :)

I have to admit that I tend to play as female characters in games. For the simple reason that when I'm going to be playing a game for a few weeks, and it comes down to a male who sounds constipated or a female who is having an orgasm... I'll take the orgasm. The guy trying to sound way too tough who only ends up sounding constipated shits me. Personal choice :)

i was playing UT2k4 online yesterday and there was a 7yr old girl playing.... 7!!!
times are a changing...
(oh and she had voice chat and no sense of tactics... and she was a camper :P)

Are you sure she was seven, how do you know it wasn't just a wierdo like rastus mentioned, that had one of those special voice tweaky things.

Totally off topic and not meant as a barrage against you Moonunit, your comment just stirred up something I've been laughing about lately.

If you mean this 7yr old was a camper because she used the sniper rifle then shes not 'technically' a camper.

The definition of camper is someone who finds an area that is either loaded with powerups etc or is impossible or near impossible to attack without the occupant picking you off far too easily.
In other words they sit down there and 'Camp' with near invunerability.

Camping is an issue of bad game balance that is being exploited, it is not someone using a weapon that has been OK'ed by the developer.
Most games don't have these unbalanced areas anymore because of the public outcry and better design, if you play a more recent game which has snipers its generally very hard to defend against more than one opponent when you've been spotted, its just that most people lack the tactics to flush them out.

I've always found it funny that its ok for everyone to be a rocket bunny or always use the most powerful uber weapons but using stealth tactics moving around the game with a sniper rifle is frowned upon, I've never had problems with snipers, if they are part of the game then they are part of the game. [:P]

Phew, glad thats off my chest. [:P]

was gana post about deans camping thery but my post was getting to long and it bored even me

but yead 7 fark me why she even playing ut2004 bad perents now thats why we have school shootings lol

jokes :D

Malus i agree with you whole hartedly, but she translocated ontop of a hanging light and was shooting down from there with a minigun (and was consequently the lowest scorer on the team :P ). Personally ive got nothing against sniping or stealth tactics :)

Well theorectically you could get a voice alter-er ma-bob and say you were 7 but unless its an excuse for your dodgy playing i dont see why you would want to be treated like a "kid". (i know theres probably some great 7yr olds out there bla bla but think about the general reaction that a 7yr old playing online FPS would get).

or they might be Wierdos!

As a female aiming to get into the games industry, all I can say is that from my own experience most of the women I know tend to only do things because they are cool or in fashion. Gaming is simply not 'cool' enough - not compared with clothes/ mobile phones etc... I don't seem to think is the game content as such thats turning girls off games. I believe that if games were marketed differently and were able to convince girls that they were 'fashionable enough' maybe things would be different.

As for getting into the industry, young females in general seem to go with what has a trendy image at the time. eg a independent, sophisticated lawyer or journalist etc. (I even have some friends who are studying to be forensic scientists because they want to be like the people from CSI) They don't seem to see the image of the independent, cool, sophisticated game developer.

One thing I have noticed is that the Australian game development industry seems to be very hidden from the public eye. When I was leaving school and wondering what to do with my life I didn't even know there was an industry in Australia let alone places you could study it. I think that there are thousands of girls (and guys) that would jump at the chance to have a career in such a creative and exciting industry if they were just simply told about it.

Jessica Andersen.

Some good points there Jes84. But seriously, If you had some of the games Developers I know come to your school and you saw them in person then it would be a backward step for promotion of the industry [:p].

quote:One thing I have noticed is that the Australian game development industry seems to be very hidden from the public eye.

Oh I totally agree! It was a sheer fluke that I picked up the tiny dusty QTAC booklet from under the mounds of UTAC and VTAC books and found QANTM. If I had never found that I would have taken that course for graphic design at Wollongong. *shudders*

Acttually I have seen a few girls in the local EB checking out games (makes me proud [:D]) and even a couple of young girls that were around 11 or 12 that we like "OMG MUM Can we get this game???" *Girl grabs Doom 3 off the shelf* Or the other girl who was showing her mum around the PS2 titles and grabbed San Andreas and bugged her mum to get it.

Although I don't like the thought of childern playing such violent games, it definately showed me that girls are getting into gaming and are ok with it :)

Edit: (I just saw your post!)
quote:But seriously, If you had some of the games Developers I know come to your school and you saw them in person then it would be a backward step for promotion of the industry

Acctually I went back to my old high school last year as a request from my computer teacher, and I shed some light to some students about what I was doing, and by then end of the day there were a few guys that wanted to do stuff for games. It was good because it was a little country school and they said they didn't even know that you could do that sort of stuff here in Australia. :)
I'm such a nerd. [:D}]

quote:Originally posted by Mdobele

If you had some of the games Developers I know come to your school and you saw them in person then it would be a backward step for promotion of the industry [:p].

[:D] hahahahah. It can't be *that* bad can it?

Actually don't answer that.

Going over to an older gamer/game developer's house for a LAN recently (some of you will know who I'm talking about) he had two ~8yr old daughters playing games with the lanning crowd and on the ps2, and they were kicking some serious ass too.

I guess with this sort of upbringing more and more women/girls/females will find their way into game development, or at least into playing and buying games - which will move the market in other ways.

Hehe, I use to be in the game industry (as of last week I quit) and will be moving to perth on July 7th. :)

I wouldn?t worry about it mate, if your willing to put in the years of hard work to get good enough to work in the games industry, I?m sure by the time you break into the industry you would consider moving to a different state a small issue. I think its more important to worry about getting the necessary skills then to worry about wether or not you will be able to find work in your home town/city. [:)]

I?ll also point out that:
? It?s a growing industry and who really knows what the employment situation will be like in the future
? There are some developers in Perth, so you may manage to get a job at home
? Many people manage to sustain games development work online ? In that case it doesn?t really matter where you live!

It?s probably best to focus on your education before getting too worried about your future career. If you have the skills, you?ll get a career, no matter where you are based. [:)]

haha yeh dude im not worried about moving at all, in fact i would like to move from here, maybe to gold coast or sumthing. i was just wondering how many people were from perth thats all [^]

I run a web site at www.a1puzzles.com. I would like some information on how to start getting quotes etc. for programming a quiz game that I have developed. If you know anyone who might be interested could you please give them my email address 'anjamac@a1puzzles.com'

Thank you in advance.

I'm from perth, also starting on my career. I start a diploma in 3d animation in august, can't wait!

Thats a pretty tough one, if your thinking about it, The only advice I can give you is spend a LONG time finding the right people, I cant stress enough how important it is to have people who share a vision.

I believe approx 90% of all business fail within the first 2 years of existance, I'm sure the games industry would also fit that category.

great to hear, i was waiting for something like this.

Question is how long before these kinds of affirmative plans, can be actioned upon. [;)]

The industry definately deserves it however, about time [:P]

Well done man. Pleasing those guys isn't the easiest thing on Earth :D

Now release the bloody game on PC or X-Box ;) Pleeeeaasssseeee

It certainly isn't easy. Check out this one: [url]http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2003-07-02&res=l[/url]

Congrats to the team at Melbourne House. I've noticed a few Aussie games mentioned at PA in recent months including Citizen Zero and Tribes: Vengence.

quote:Now release the bloody game on PC or X-Box ;) Pleeeeaasssseeee

I concur.

i also third the PC xbox thing but aside from that well done, thats big publicity that is :P

Well you know that you've created a cult hit when the Penny Arcade guys do a review like that.

Although if you have a reality check you'd realise that they're just 2 gamers with a popular website ;-)

Still the "cult" factor is there. Congratulations Zaph and the rest of the Transformers team!

I could have told you Transformers rocked, without the need of fancy shmancy cratoons :P

quote:Originally posted by Daemin

Well you know that you've created a cult hit when the Penny Arcade guys do a review like that.

Although if you have a reality check you'd realise that they're just 2 gamers with a popular website ;-)

Still the "cult" factor is there. Congratulations Zaph and the rest of the Transformers team!

And a little plug for myself, I've now done the double for nerd comics - Scott Adams wrote a Dilbert comic about me several years ago which you can read here (it's a conversation I had with a manager, almost word-for-word, which I told Scott about) [url]http://www.torps.com/ZaphDilbert.html[/url]

well thats two stars on your chest, whats your plan for a hat-trick :P

Thats Awsome.

I'm just happy to see another games company pop-up in my area. increases the chances of my employement when i finally finish uni :-)

Good Luck to em

Yeh, they're a part of Eyecon.

THE YELLOW THE YELLOW AAAARGH oh wait it's gone blue now.

Aaaaanyway, I think what it means is that they now have Gamecube devkits basically, instead of working for Nintendo themselves.

I hope you don't mind me posting about this on the front page. It's terribly sad news, and I think everyone here shares the shock and the heartfelt sorrow of someone taken away so abruptley. And just to repeat my news post, I'm sure everyone here is extremely saddened by the terrible news, and we all send our deepest condolences to Adam's family and friends..

Im afriad i didnt attend that talk but my heartfelt empathy goes out to friends and family of the victims.

Souri, No, I don't mind at all. Thankyou.

The Digital Designers Society website has created several public forums and image galleries for people to leave messages, share stories and upload photos for Adam, Gerard and Helena. Details of which are on the front page: http://www.ddes.org/

Details about Adams funeral service is still forthcomming. If you've email me about this then I will forward them onto you as soon as I can.

I too never attended the talk, but I would like to send my condolences to the family and friends, of the young people who lost their lives.

I did get a chance to see the faux cave demo at Free Play. I was very impressed with this work. He was very talented and definitely an inspiration. I was honored to briefly meet Adam and get his business card after the demo.

Even though I didn't know him personally. I do feel saddened by this terrible tragedy. I send my condolences to his family and friends.

I only found out about Adam's passing on Friday... This Friday- Feb 26, 2010... just before the launch of The Edge at SLQ- Adam was a pioneer in V.J.ing and (as far as I know)- he was the guy who thought up and created the first video to ascii effect plugin... I thought of him, watching all those crazy visuals that night and knew he'd have loved something like this in Brisbane...

I have good memories of Adam and his brilliant imagination and "out-there" creativity. I'll remember him selling glow-sticks in the valley, dressed as a robot saying random things like "Please donate to support robots without arms"... and doing visuals for my gig at Ric's with a dodgy slide projector... the insane warehouse he lived in above the mechanic's workshop with infinite electro-wonderment, complete with keyless entry for his front door... creativity and enthusiasm overflowing in everything he did.

I just found a photo online of him from a story he told me about strapping a laptop screen to his chest dressed as a robot (again with the robots!) with a webcam on his back... creating the "see through" panel...

Dammit Adam- you're a genius and an inspiration- and you've scared me into making the most of my time!!

Peace,
Andrew.
www.beattherapy.com

this just got posted in the other board

http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1880

Not bad read.

Yeah, I got this too. It would be pretty cool to set up a chapter in Brisbane. Does no replies mean that no-one is interested?

I think by no replies it means that no one is interested enough to actually run one (set up on).

There is quite a bit of work involved and IGDA wants you to try and get at least one person from each company on the board when you start up. Then there is meeting places, organising talks, etc.

I looked at the documents, I was partially keen to set it up.

However I just don't have the time to spend on this right now with other commitments and deadlines.

yeah setting up the IDGA isn't that hard, its mainly interest.. and being a lack of gaming companies in diff states does make things slightly harder.

what my be better is to start a mailing list, and people interested can sign up to the mailing list. and the "leaders" can post up info, and based on how many people seem keen enough, then you can arrange meetings and such a lot easier...

only a suggestion though.

Yeah, I got this one as well. My main concern is time. I would certainly be interested but I'm too busy these days..

Yeah a lot of people are busy these days, thats why you need atleast a couple of people that have the time to simply get something done, and force others to come along as well..

by the sounds he got quite a few replies from the email anyway :)

http://www.igda.org/Forums/showthread.php?threadid=10968&goto=lastpost

YAY the Brisbane Chpater is starting up

Guh... has to happen when I just get to Canberra. The world hates me, seriously. @:-P

I didn't go to the conference, but I was wondering if there's a conference next year could a video/DIVX be made up? I e-mailed this idea but got no response. Melbournes a long way for some of us. :(

Conference was great, especially in a value for money sense. I missed out on a ticket for the friday but I still managed to hear and learn a lot of great stuff. I deffinately think that the work shops needed to be expanded. I really wanted to go to the one on normal mapping, but allas, there was no room. Other than that I thought it was great. With most the conference selling out I had freinds who missed out. Maybe the success of this year will lead to bigger sponsership, and next year will become bigger and better!

I was one of the volunteers at Free Play and overall I thought it was brilliant. I was thoroughly inspired, as was my cohort, and it was great to network with people of a like mind. There were also things previously below my radar which were fantastic to discover, and have bolstered my enthusiasm in general. It was also great to discover some faces behind the names, and to have a talk to them about many things.

Harvey Smith was my favourite speaker; he was inspirational, and cemented my decision to strive forward as an indie, and to get active within my part of the community. It was just what I needed.

Now, onto the not so good parts of the conference, and some general suggestions.

There were some sessions which seemed to gloss over the aspects they were covering, rather than giving anything useful. Sessions that seemed to be like this included the Vertex and Pixel Shader Workshop and the Game AI Workshop. The bulk of the attendees were competent programmers and wanted to see at least some code examples and a how-to on putting them into the larger context of their code, not just slides and videos. It may be ideal to introduce a "crash course" stream, where a limited number of attendees sign up for a one-day long session and actually learn something.

The preparation and public speaking skills of a couple of the speakers was pretty bad. It may be wise to insure that speakers have prepared adequately before they arrive at the conference. It may be a little presumptious to ask this of speakers if they are very busy, however.

Another thing would some more "roundtables", where people are on an equal level with the "speakers". It's less of a psychological barrier to people asking questions. This would be most appropriate for game ideas or hypothetical game designs.

Of course there was the Indie Game Jam idea as well. That would be excellent to see.

Some more audience participation would have been good. I don't think I even got the chance to speak to any Sumeans (I arrived on Friday morning), though I think I recognised some from hearing their names. Which leads me to... name tags! NAME TAGS! I'm surprised no-one picked that one up.

Combining the E3.1b with the Recruitment forum may be an idea. Attendees may not necessarily have a demo at the conference, but they could speak about their project. Most people at the Recruitment forum were there just to have a look, though not actively looking for a project. Making it more of a public forum may pique the interest of people who hadn't decided on entering a project.

Anyway, overall a brilliant first conference, and I look forward to helping out next year.

Cheers,
Paul.

about the workshops thing, the size of the crowd in there is great for a class, but lots of people missed out on what they wanted to go see, if the signup sheet is posted on the internet beforehand to get preliminary numbers and then again have a phisical signup sheet to get actual numbers, you could run certain workshops twice or even 3 times depending on the popularity of the event

and also have skill rating on the title, i came across a few people who thought it was going to be more advanced that it was and got bored.

even though the LAN was really really small, i managed to get a game of quake3 in with Ian Shanahan which was great, relieved my withdrawal from staying away from my pc for 3 days to come to melbourn. i suggest having then lan in a more open area, and at least 12 pc's for that 6 on 6 team action,

incoorperating the lunch break ideas with the gaming- if more indie games get loaded up next year could we have competitions in a lunch break, the reason i think "in the lunch break" is because we all have Lan's in our home towns and really arent going to travel to melbourn to play games, most of us are there for the lectures, increasing the length of the conference by even 1 day is a bit much so time is precious for the 3 days.( sorry about the way that paragraph is structured without grammer etc etc.)

i like the 2 hour lectures, having a topic run out of discussion is a great thing,,means youve covered all the bases and everyone is happy. if the time's were shortened people wouldnt get to say the things they want or make important points.

where overlap is concerned, i didnt experience any grief over that, so no comment.

souvinir's for fund raising, not sure on the viability of this ideas since we are all poor. i do know that Souri sold alot of his t-shirts :O), fridge magnets keychains,, personally i like ornaments( i knw alot of peopel like clothes, but plaese give us a variety i dont like t-shirts)

the overseas guest speakers were great to have there, i hope they enjoyed themselves soo much that they will come back next year just for the fun and games and bring there friends :O)

Hrm...well I guess I have an opinion on everything so here goes :)

(thinking)

I thought that the social events were excellent, not because of the free beer (I didn't get to have any anyway) but just the chance to meet everyone from around the place who work or have worked in the industry was very good.

The price was good :) But I've heard that they won't get anywhere near that level of state funding for next year, so it's likely that the price will either go up, or the venue will change (to something cheap like a University) so that's something that will have to be tackled. I think alot of people went simply because it was so cheap!

I can't remember the guys name, but he was the left-most (from audience's perspective) panel member (organised the indy hip-hop/electronic conferences) on the 'building the independent game community' panel - he was pretty spot on in saying that we need to possibly move away from alot of 'industry evaluation' talks (which didn't entirely focus on 'independent' as much as it focussed on 'wannabes') and more into technical discussions. Especially as I see the tech in independent games taking a different path to blockbuster style development (look at the content required for both levels of development to see what I mean).

Anyway, I think the venue was passable for a first attempt, it wasn't bad, but I wouldn't have minded a more comfortable setting. Perhaps keep the bar a bit further away from the talks (but not too far - hehehe) and keep the room sizes large enough for all the talks - I can't complain too much about room 2 because I NEVER GOT INTO IT. :P

Umm - also I think alot more workshops would be good, perhaps even classifying the level of experience required to get the most out of the workshops...alot of them were pitched a bit low from what I've heard, and as nice as it is to show beginners a few tricks (and we MUST continue to do so) some higher-level workshops would be nice too.

There's a bit of discussion about having some kind of indy-game-jam style thingo...I'm all for it, I think if it's well timed we could even tie it in with the sumea 48 hour competitions (programming and the art and otherwise things). It obviously can't go on during the conference (well it could for maybe the first day, but it's a bit of a drain on the people who would be in the competition) so the two days beforehand is okay if everyone else was into it.

The expo was good, but it was cramped, and I can see the benefit in increasing the venue size for that purpose. Perhaps having a bit more of a schedule for the expo as well, they had a big-ass projector screen but it was hardly used for the expo.

We definitely need to make people aware of this site too! It got a fair bit of 'pimp'age at the conference, and I think alot of people are aware of it, but it definitely needs to be built upon and made better. I dunno how feasible it is, although alot of indy game developers lurk here, it would be nice if it would also get more attention from the general australian gaming and independent gaming public.

I dunno...that's the end of my ramblings.

Looks like there's been a few posts while I was afk thinking.

Umm - name tags - I didn't mind, I felt it was nice to just introduce yourself and not sort of just look around at name tags. I ended up talking to Harvery Smith completely by accident! (poor guy having to suffer my musings).

I meant to get a shirt off Souri but he left early on Sunday while I had Harvery cornered - I'll get one off you one of these days - mwahahaha!

Okay, back on topic. I think posting up some of the talks early and getting numbers on how many people are interested would be a very good idea, or at least having more than 30 places...either way.

I definitely think a bigger LAN would be nice. The room was oh so tiny! And it would be much nicer if there were 20 or so computers...not so that we can spend $30 or more to come to Melbourne and play games that we can play anywhere else, but so that everyone could sample some of the indy mods and the indy games when there weren't any talks or they just felt like a break from listening to ppl :) A 3-day style expo room would be good, I guess it depends how strong the community is in that regard, if there isn't anything to expo then there isn't likely to be a need for a room for the expo being open all weekend.

I was only there for a day (sunday) but ill share some of my ramblings and opinions with you.

Everyone seems to menion that a lot of the talks were aimed to low and even myself learned nothing new at say the AI confrence... and i havent even left high school (though it was entertaining dont get me wrong, just not to benificial). But there were others (like the game dev grads one, ahhh now that was actually pretty entertaining ;) ) that were really good so dont feel its all bad :P.

The venue.... now im sorry but the venue was pretty laughable, room 3 was bloody hilarious, i was debating taking my camera out next time i went that way. For those who werent there:
Upon climbing the 3-4 flights of stairs to get to the confrence you then had to go arond the back of the floor through a hallway and go down a really rickety flight of stairs (which i noticed had a do not use these stairs sign on it at one point, despite free plays little encouraging notices pinned up on the wall like "keep going, your allmost there") then down into a garbage filled alleyway out the back which some guy sitting on a milk crate directed me out of to walk down the street, past an intersection and into a different building to down another flight of stairs.
Naturally i turned up late for my first talk in that room.
the building was ok in part but some rooms were too small, the bar was right behind a talk area which crossed it off as a social area (so as a consequence we went out to a bar for lunch and missed 2 talks or something). I know this isnt the AGDC but it coulda used a bit more space.

the expo was pretty neat, i liked how there was people showcasing there games around the edge which you could sit down and play (i got to watch derek play escape from woomera which i had hoped i would get a chance to see so that was great) and it was all in all a fun social atmosphere. The projector was used to show off piccys of old ataris and the like, next time lets have games running on that thing!! Like 1vs1 fighter (soul caliber or tekken or something) tournaments woulda rocked.

So all in all id sum up my opinions for the free play people with:
different venue (room 1 was too close to the bar, room 2 was too small and room 3 was down the street...)
Make the talkers aware of their audiences skill level or tell them what sort of understanding you expect the audience to have to avoid people going to talks aimed too low for them
Make social activitys more recognized, things like a break for lunch (so you dont miss out on talks while you nip out for food) and whatever other things you can think of (bigger LAN n whatever)

True, it is kind of nice to say hello to someone, but I noticed a lot of people not talking to anyone. Not to mention, I was looking for any Sumeans as well as several GarageGamers who I'd arranged to meet up with. I was supposed to meet up with David Michael before his keynote, but I had to wait for his keynote before I even got to say who he was.

I didn't expect so many American accents to be around, so I found it hard to find the poor man.

Unsure of the costs involved, but a game demo CD/DVD for the conference would be very cool. Exhibitors could distribute their demos through it and if it was done far enough ahead of time, speakers might be able to put whatever source/example material they have onto the CD/DVD too.

Harvey Smith was fantastic, getting some more game designers of his calibre out for future conferences would be teriffic. Perhaps a design workshop on a small example game - looking at refining aspects of the game. Harvey mentioned the Mechanics/Dynamics/Aesthetics stuff that Marc LeBlanc has done (excellent stuff by Marc at: http://algorithmancy.8kindsoffun.com on this subject)

Maitrek: Kenny Sabir was his name, IIRC.

Yeah I'd be similarly interested in some more technical discussions. I'm not one for public speaking, but I'd be happy to help out with running programming skills/software engineering workshops or something along those lines. Vaguely wondered if having a "bring your buggy code and get some help to fix it" session might be valuable (a little impractical for a conference?). Or perhaps get a panel of seasoned developers to take some code and look at strategies for refactoring it?

It'd be great to get someone to present an introduction to some of the agile development methodologies (eg Extreme Programming - see http://www.extremeprogramming.org/ if you're wondering what this is about). I don't know if anyone in australia uses these for game development, but they seem like they'd be very easy to adapt to game development.

The indie game jam thing sounds interesting, but I do wonder whether the deprive-yourself-of-sleep-to-hack-up-a-game is just reinforcing the industry expectation of low-quality code and unsustainable hours for employees.

Which reminds me, the "Game Industry Fine Print" handout was great, I wonder if someone could post a link to the PDF for others to read?

Cheers,

Mark/CW

I just wanted to say that I had an amazing time at the conference. I learnt heaps of valuable infomation and meet some kewl people.

I commend the conference organizers for bringing out game delvelopers from the US. I enjoy all of what they had to say. David Michael and Harvey Smith where great to listen to!... Brody Condon was extremely moving. He really made me view art differently. He made me realize many things. If I had of seen his presentation maybe 5 years ago. I may have channeled my artistic drive into computer art. I guess all i'm saying is I really enjoyed listening to his presentation. And I didn't know who he was before.

As far as improving the conference... First of all I liked the relaxed atmosphere. It would be great to get a bigger venue and have more people attend. However I liked the personal approach of the conference. So if it goes bigger, keep that in mind. In room 1 the desk with the speakers really needed to be rased. Becasue much of the time I couldn't see them! I learnt that you have to sit in the first 5 rows to actually see the people who where talking. That is something I would like to see improved. All it would take would be a little stage and your set. Even bring in a portable one.

As far as the content goes I thought that the conference covered just about everything I wanted to know. Within the conference the content was well rounded. Sure, we could have had more specialized workshops. But I guess we would need to make sure that people would attent them.

The demo room was also very kewl! It's great to actually meet people who are serious about delveloping their games. Or just to showcase their talent. I think the direct contact between delvelopers and everyone else was great to see. E3.1b was another great way to meet people who are currently delveloping games.

We go to the conference to learn and meet people like minded. From my point of view I think that both were accomplished. I'm all for meet and greet type scenarios. The Mod and Game Project Team Recruitment Forum was another great place to meet people!

I hope that this event goes on year after year!!!

There were a few lectures I missed out on due to overcrowded rooms. Room 2 was packed out most of the time.

The venue was not exactly great but it had an genuine "indie" feel to it, if you know what I mean [;)] Maybe something a little larger next time though.

1 word - "Quicktime"

Can speakers be either shown where Quicktime is located on the hard drive, or install it so that they can at least play their videos? Is Quicktime all too much to ask!

Hi all,

First of all, let me thank everyone who came along to my normal mapping talk. I had a great time, although I was a little hungover [:p] and I've never done any kind of public speaking before, so everyone did well to hang around till the end.
I hope you all got something out of it.

[url="http://www.garthmidgley.com"] As promised, I've uploaded my Powerpoint presentation to my website. [/url]

I don't have any notation of my actual talk, so I don't know how useful this will be for people who didn't attend, but it may be a good reference for those who were there.

Those who weren't there, but still want to learn more about it, check out the other links I've got on my main page to the polybump (same thing but different name for normal mapping) tools that Crytek have available on their website.

My thoughts on the Free Play Conference in general are very positive. I found it had a very cusual atmosphere and I met lots of new people (was good to meet you Souri) and caught up with heaps of old friends as well.

The venue was a little small, but they didn't expect quite so many attendee's, so that's understandable.

The bar in the venue made it a great place to hang out instead of leaving to catch up with people for a drink.

The LAN was a great idea.

The name listing on the rooms was a good idea, however in the case of my talk there was a list of about sixty names and then come 12:05 Sunday, the room wasn't even full. A lot of people put their names down and didn't show up, while others who wanted to come and would have been there didn't bother even trying. Maybe next year it'll be best to do it on a first in best dressed basis?

But, as I said, all in all it was a great effort on behalf of all those who organised it and I look forward to attending it again next year.

cheers,
Garth

i cant believe i forgot to mention this

Dont make the confrence the weekend before mid year exams!!

i know a few people on these forums didnt go because of this and theres probably more people who didnt make it because of the date. A lot of indy developers are uni students and the like and this is mid year exam time. I personally was only able to attend one day of the confrence (instead of all of em) because of this. Seriously my biggest gripe with the whole thing had to be its date, next year (should there be one, i hope so) check with some students or something that your not putting it on at a bad time :p thats why the AGDC is good (date wise) as its holiday time for most students in december.

AMen and well said moony, it was the sole reason i couldn't go, ihad exams the following week. But they could have just waited for the holidays, which was in like 3 or 4 weeks, it would have enabled a lot more students to attend.

Those who are serious about the independent games development scene will make the time for the IGDC regardless of exams :P That's why they usually aren't overly fussed about students' wishes at these things.

Howdy guys...

toke me way long to get onto these forums... i just came back from Sydney so thats my excuse..

ill have my pics up soon (Souri... LOL, you looked like a god! har har)

my thoughts... overall it wasnt too bad for its price, the social event was great, got to meet a lot of people in the field, and got some great tips.

some of the talks were rather boring, and wasnt enough discussion, they were hoping that people had things to ask, and due to no one having anything to say it would end early.. the workshop was better.. but they were expecting everyone who was there had no knowledge of programming so never went indepth with their topic, which was a great shame.. as i was hoping to learn a lot.

The LAN room. i spent a fair bit of time in there, pity only Urban Terror was the only game that worked, i was hoping to see the other mods that were around. oh well.

and room 3... way too far away.. only reason why i went was for the grad tells all which was sooo funny... heheh :D :D

anyways, good to be part of sumea! har har har har har

bring on the flames! MUAHHAHAH

gday derek, wondering when youd show up :D

yeah yeah, i know, i've been a very busy person... with drinking, and partying... oh and drinking..

but i am here now, and i plan to be active as well.

scary......! ehhe

quote:Originally posted by Anti-Gremlin
some of the talks were rather boring, and wasnt enough discussion, they were hoping that people had things to ask, and due to no one having anything to say it would end early.. the workshop was better.. but they were expecting everyone who was there had no knowledge of programming so never went indepth with their topic, which was a great shame.. as i was hoping to learn a lot.

Do you mean the python workshop ?
I'm sorry about that. There were a few python experts in the audience and I meant to have a discussion about python Vs. C++, look at some advanced methods/tools etc. But got a bit side-tracked... Also, I spent all saturday and sunday morning installing software on that machine and a lot of it just didn't work in time. doh.[:p]
Anyway, I've put some recommended downloads up on my website for people to check out:
http://arrowtheory.com/

As for the conference, I thought it was a bit of a shambles [8)], but I met lots of great people, and had many interesting discussions. And that was cool.

Simon.

Hey Simon,

I actually didnt end up going to that, i wanted to, but the list got filled up before i had a chance to write down my name...

i was refering to the vertex shaders workshop.

@ mathgenius: yeah i was hoping it would be all about c++ vs python or c++ + python etc, but after the first 5 minuts i had to walk out cause it wasnt,, so i was a little dissapointed, glado to hear you had plans to make it tho..

I attended mainly to coerce my partner into going, and found some interesting stuff out and a lot of inspiration, as I'm a total beginner. (It proved quite profitable for him too, I think..)

I ended up having to volunteer as the tickets were all sold out when we rang up on the friday morning, and yes, I can garauntee you that they weren't expecting so many people and were under staffed, and the venue was too small due to this. However, for a first time I think it was a great effort.

Room 2 was a hard one to handle as a volunteer, the list would be overflowing but the room would be close to empty, because it was so small people constantly coming and leaving seemed to be quite disruptive as well.. I think that first come best dressed could solve this problem, just so long as the volunteer locks the door after the room is full.. The lists seemed to serve as a restriction device, and this helped out a lot in not having the room overfull, but a lot of people also missed out due to this. Running the same session a few times, perhaps for people at varying levels of experience could work quite well I think.

As for the timing, it was held as part of the Next Wave Festival which ended at the end of May, so I don't think it really would have been too viable to push it back that little bit further.

The speakers were great, I particularly enjoyed Harvey Smith's talk, and speaking to him outside the conference was awesome. He provided me with a lot of inspiration, if only I knew how to use it, goddamnit..

Hope to see you all next year, hopefully when I know a little more about what I'm doing..

-Meta

Will be there with bells on [:P] Look for the trenchcoat - if you see me, dont be shy say hi!!

Trenchcoat, noted. Look for the plain black cap, glasses and goatee @:-)

duelly noted. see you there [:)]

Sound interesting, wish I could go. I only found out about this yesterday but now I've got plans I can't get out of. :(

Does QANTM have this kind of thing often?

Just got back, that was pretty awsome, makes me want to be apart of the industry even more. And a free beer, w00t. Oh hang on, three dollar beer![:(!]

Wasnt a bad meetup - one thing tho - i didnt like how noone could answer my question of " how many characters are there roughly on the screen at any one time? "

I thought that was a fair and reasonable question, but the lady that was talking i forget her name but mean no harm !! couldnt even give an estimate .. i thought that was strange, they had a engine dev guy there as well - i looked over at him for a responce but still nothing ...???

perhaps someone from krome is willing to share some info!! [:D]

THE footage of King Arthur was very cool, but i was specifically asking questions about the engine specs for a yardstick on our own project, as devious as that is [:P]

Anyhoo - it was a good meeting got to see a couple more of the krome inhabitants - a jolly bunch they are too!

Palantir - qantm has them every 3-4 months depending on whats available - although id like to point out - that this wasnt something qantm put on - it was put on by the "queensland animators" association ( may have got that wrong, but something like that ) and qantm let them use there building to hold it.

argh denz you should have said you were going [:O]

Yeah I just got back, pretty cool. It's nice to see some people taking time out to talk to students. The footage for King Arthur was wicked, it reminded me heavily of the LOTR game, but cool none the less.

I wish I could have stayed for beer but I had to get back to the Coast.[:(]

Stu

hehe I actually mentioned it in the gamedev courses thread [:)] But yeah, next time!

haha, I remember that question hazard. I thought he said up to fifteen at any one time or somthing? I wasn't all to wow'ed by king arthur, I mean it looked cool, but I wasn't like woahhhh.

There were some good insights though, by all the speakers.

he said 15 ??? man i was way at the back i couldnt hear anything [:O] okay my apologies to space captain steve or whoever answered my question! [:D]

Yeah Arthur does about 15 or so. We've lost track of how much stuff we can put on screen in TY 2 but it's getting up towards the 50's.

Glad everyone gained something from the night.

Steve, i know there was lots of discussion about game / movie industries being so different, but what about dev houses like square enix / capcom etc that make huge cg movies with semi-realistic super high poly models etc and massive long cg cutscenes etc,.. i would of thought that would be quite similar to movie industry.

Also does krome have something planned in the works for something like that ? ie a game with some big polycount cg cutscenes?

Yes, t'was a good evening. Always fun to hang back and talk games. People not knowing what E3 or Penny Arcade were was kinda scary, as was being back in the QANTM building (disgruntled students abound still, so it seems @:-) but a tops evening.

We need a big game dev Dance Dance session by the sounds of things. @:-D

LOL im with that dance dance suggestion, a friend once told me.... " ive never played that game, but you gimme a pill, and ill clock that game no probs " i just stared blankly for quite some time, in disbelief, then... burst out laughing as i could actually see him doing that... and quite possibly suceeding.

Wow so people actually went to that. I saw them set it up but I decided to go home instead.

I read the post on here at about 5:45 and decided to go (I live on the Gold Coast so it was a bit of a rush, oh and trying to drive and park in Brisbane sucks)

Stu

I think it was a great oppurtunity, much like the AGDC only affordable, to meet up with other people in the game development industry either independent, commercial or otherwise. Also I think that everyone was quite happy to talk candidly about the state of anything, the talks were very informal and the social gatherings (both of which I missed cause I was feeling sick, damnit!) and the expo were great for just chatting to other people in the 'community' (a word I wouldn't usually associate with game developers).

As much as we all say that we can just email each other if we want to work together, it is nice to meet up face to face and not act like we are all against each other.

Now if we could just tone down the cynical factor a little it would've been perfect :)

As far as the talks go, Harvey Smith's talk was very intrigueing (sp?), I had a chance to chat with him at the expo which was excellent. Also the Game Dev Grads tell all was partly entertainment, partly informative - pity no one could really say whether it was worth the $6000-$7000 per year! We definitely need to have a forum based on building this independent community.

Unfortunately I can't remember too many of the talks as I was so tired over the whole weekend.

And Souri - you missed the massive 'Souri-Love-Festival' during the Building the Independent Game Development Community talk on the Sunday...hahaha!

I enjoyed the time i spent there (on sunday), unfortunately all the talks i really wanted to see were on friday and saturday!
The game ai workshop was a bit of a let down.
The audience of the game dev grads talk seemed to do more talking than the panel for the short time i was there! and it was quite amusing to watch Lorien(?)s personal vendetta against the AIE (or just game dev schools with close industry ties in general perhaps).
The physics talk was well done, but aimed at quite a newbie audience, which was unfortunate for the less newbie people there, and quite a few people left :P
The other talks i attended where very good, the one about starting up/managing a game dev studio in the morning (nocturnal was a very interesting discussion) was well done.
The expo at the end was good too.
There were a lot more people than i expected!
Hope it happens again next year, you can't beat that price :)
CYer, Blitz

It was great to meet all those fellow-sumeans (and new/future fellow-sumeans [;)]) who were able to make it to the conference. Had about 10 people at the meet on Thursday night, it was fun playing spot-the-game-developer-wandering-lost-through-the-food-court :) Got myself a Sumea T-shirt from Souri - if you've got the money, grab yourself one of these - they've got a really nice design and are very good quality.

Some really inspiring stuff - esp hearing from Harvey Smith (Deus Ex designer) on his thoughts about his experiences in the/ideas about industry (Jacana, a bunch of other friends and I managed to kidnap him to hear his presentation the day after - for the second time for some of us, it was particularly good) I will post the URL for his talk once he puts his notes up on the web.

We took a vote on the pronunciation of "Sumea" in the building the igd community session - "Sumeeah" won by a rather large margin over "Sumee Aye" :)

Lots of other great sessions too - the organisers did a wonderful job with the conference. Definitely looking forward to next year's!

Freeplay was good fun :) Loved it.

There were some issues with venues with some of the smaller talks having more people then the big talk. The two hours per a talk could get a bit long at times when there is no break. Also, the overlapping times for the talks could be a bit of a pain.

The conference was in no way perfectly organised - but was wonderful! Everyone I talked to would come back next year, as would I.

There were a few talks that I managed to catch in full. One of the best was the Women in Dev talk. There was some amazing talent up on that panel. It was great to listen to some of their views on how things go! They were all extremely intelligent and beautful :) I think there is going to be some women in dev stuff picking up in the near future.

The game dev grad talk was interesting ;) As Maitrek said, it did not really answer if they are good to go to or not. But then I don't have that answer. As everyone saw Lorien had a very different view of the AIE then I did. At the end of the day it's a different experience for each person.

What I do think everyone on the panel agreed with was that Uni is a good option and no one should overlook going to Uni for places like Qantm or AIE.

One thing I was never able to understand from everything. At the drinks friday night beer and basic spirits were free. I order a coke (no spirits) and am charged $2. I order a coke with spirits and it is free.

The conference was "down-to-earth". That was the wonderful part. There were no name tags to label people with a company or such. Everyone was just a person.

And one of the most memorable things (as CW already said) was that Harvey gave us his speach over again the next night. That was just amazing. I was just very impressed with how accessable he made himself to everyone and how genuine he was as well as about what he did.

I am not sure if we scared him or not walking back to his motel room. Oh that was just so much fun ;)

quote:Originally posted by Blitz

The audience of the game dev grads talk seemed to do more talking than the panel for the short time i was there! and it was quite amusing to watch Lorien(?)s personal vendetta against the AIE (or just game dev schools with close industry ties in general perhaps).

I went to the AIE with Lorien, he was one of your programmers. He has personal vendetta against just about everything. No a very happy man.

The AIE is a very laid back place and because of this you only get out what you put in, so for someone like myself which put in a all I could, ended up my dream job. And for others which didn't put all that much in are not working in the industry. So anyone which is thinking about going to the AIE and willing to put in the time you will get a job out of it.

Heh that game dev grads was a bit of entertainment wasnt it, but it was also probably the most benifical to me. Someone mentioned that we needed more time for lunch and stuff, i agree. We went out for lunch after the dev grads talk and missed out on two because we had such a mob and everyone was talking and generally in no hurry to get back :P

oh yea! forgot to add that Souri was a party man for the conference.

I happen to have a short video I took with my mobile of him looking rather hung over the first day of the conference. I am only charging $5 a copy ;)

I think there was mention that on Sunday Souri had breakfast and made it into the conference about 1:20pm ;)

lol yer, we ran into him as we were like coming back from lunch i think it was. I brought my vid camera along but i could never be bothered to take it out and use, i was busy doing whatever.

[V] doh i missed out... i guess everyone had fun [:)]

Hope everyone got back ok.
[img]http://www.planetunreal.com/rahnem/images/Dsc00260.jpg[/img]
I have blisters on my feet from walking around Melbourne so much. [:D]

Souri was indeed enjoying himself - I would like to thank him personally for "encouraging" me to get drunk on Friday evening. Maitrek was not impressed when I staggered back into our hotel room.

On the whole, the conference was fantastic. I was lucky enough to meet a few of you and, without exception, everyone from Sumea was amazingly cool & friendly. With that said, it would've been great to have more time allotted to social activities.

Most awesome experience: having the oppurtunity to waste fifteen minutes of Harvey Smith's life with my inane fan-boy ramblings.

I'd also like to second CombatWombat's endorsement of the Sumea T-Shirts - they're a bargain, and guaranteed to improve your social life*.

(* - results may vary)

quote:Originally posted by Jacana

I happen to have a short video I took with my mobile of him looking rather hung over the first day of the conference. I am only charging $5 a copy ;)

I think there was mention that on Sunday Souri had breakfast and made it into the conference about 1:20pm ;)

*shakes fist at mobile* I got to the conference at 3pm on Sunday.

Here are the two pics from the Sumea dinner. No photoshopping please.

[img]http://www.sumea.com.au/simagesmisc/sumeans1.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.sumea.com.au/simagesmisc/sumeans2.jpg[/img]

ok, for those of us who didn't make it to the conference...who are the strange people in these photos? [;)]

damn you all for having so much fun! i will definately be there next year!

Well, I'm the guy who's obviously posessed in that last photo (didn't even need to write a pixel shader to get that cool glowing effect with my eyes ;-)

In the first photo, Souri is the guy on the right.

In the second, 2nd from left is Maitrek, 4th is Jacana, 5th Tachyon, 6th Soul, 7th Tykeil, and on the right, MoonUnit. Argh, it's hard translating back to sumea names from real names :)

ok im sorry ive forgotten a name or two and ive probably got some people mixed up but ill do my best, in rahnems photo im the guy in the skelleton T-shirt on the very right, guess which one is jacana and davids posted here once or twice, hes the guy in the brown T-shirt smack in the centre. As for souris photos marks pretty much told you whos who. lol mark you look like your concentrating hard on some sort of evil telepathy with your eyes there

note theres some people in those pics that arent from sumea, jacanas friends who assure me theyll be popping up on sumea any day now :P

you can see the kind of fine dining we got up to, pubs and fast food :P, ah nothing like a 10 dollar budget. and i just gotta say that now that i have something of an arial view in rahnems photo, your right david... our table set-up really does look.... odd ;)

didnt someone take another photo of us in that pub where were all near where andrews sitting in that photo, was that you rahnem? (or atleast your camera, you dont get away with not having your mug put up)

Cool, sounds like you guys (and gals) had fun there, wish I had been there but I decided to actually take uni seriously for a while (soo damn close to graduation I don't want to be stuck there any longer). All I have to say is "More Photos!"...

:-)

Dude, you are doing, like, 2 subjects :P You'd miss a day at worst!

Since this is a new page on the thread, I think I'll post some more pics..

[img]http://www.sumea.com.au/simagesmisc/igdc1.jpg[/img]
Room 1 - Virsual : Rocking Horse presentation
[img]http://www.sumea.com.au/simagesmisc/igdc2.jpg[/img]
Room 1 - Multimedia Victoria / Film Victoria presentation
[img]http://www.sumea.com.au/simagesmisc/igdc3.jpg[/img]
Room 1 - Harvey Smith, just about to sit down for his talk
[img]http://www.sumea.com.au/simagesmisc/igdc4.jpg[/img]
Room 1 - Friday night - AIE/Torus drinks. I saw Jacana coming so I hid behind the pillar and took a photo just as she walked through
[img]http://www.sumea.com.au/simagesmisc/igdc5.jpg[/img]
The infamous unhappy stickman "do not use lift" sign. This was at the bottom of the exhausting hike upstairs to the conference
[img]http://www.sumea.com.au/simagesmisc/igdc6.jpg[/img]
The AIE guys in the Lan room playing Urban Terror
[img]http://www.sumea.com.au/simagesmisc/igdc7.jpg[/img]
The chalk shows the way towards room 3
[img]http://www.sumea.com.au/simagesmisc/igdc8.jpg[/img]
Can't remember which talk this was (the room was full so I left), but that's Harvey Smith in room 3
[img]http://www.sumea.com.au/simagesmisc/igdc9.jpg[/img]
International Space Monkey Patrol made the men's toilets that much safer

Hey I don't have a "personal vendetta against the AIE"! I don't know how many times I've said it now. AFAIK this phrase comes from the AIE. I don't see anyone saying DK has a "personal vendetta against universities"...

And as for Doord's comments: thanks dude. You're a real pal too you know. Perhaps it was mellow for you: I remember some of the artists having liquid lunches, and plenty could be relied on to put in a good hour of work a day, two and a half days a week.

The Hail programmers have a very different perspective than the artists. Perhaps ask one. I asked everyone except H.

Just for the record: I don't think I missed a single day, I worked on Hail 7 days a week, I worked on Hail at home til late, and I worked on Hail *after* it was "finished": who was it who fixed most of the remaining bugs and prepared the download edition? I was publicly thanked on the Hail website for my efforts.

I thought Doord was an arrogant little shit while I was there and my opinion hasn't changed.

BTW Jacana and I didn't fight (even though I managed to spill beer all over her on the first night), we hugged. I quite like her and I think she quite likes me. No war there. Sorry for those who wanted blood.

As for the conference IMHO it was fantastic, interesting, informative, controversial and fun. I really hope it happens again. I found Ian Bell's comments on violence in games to be one of the highlights, as was the "women in games" panel (I'm a "he" btw).

quote:Originally posted by Maitrek
Now if we could just tone down the cynical factor a little it would've been perfect :)

I note the smile, but to me it seemed most of the people displaying cynicism were full-on veterans with lists of titles longer than my arm.

quote:Originally posted by lorien

I found Ian Bell's comments on violence in games to be one of the highlights

Damn, I missed that bit - didn't realise Ian Bell was at the conference even... (Co-creator of elite for those who don't know the name)

Ah well, perhaps next year :)

Was cool to see at least one game exploring non-violence (Escape from Woomera). Well it forces non-violence by the sounds, but anything else and they would have got lynched by OFLC and the media, I guess...

Hmm perhaps there's a topic for a future Free-Play.

quote:Originally posted by lorien


and plenty could be relied on to put in a good hour of work a day, two and a half days a week.

Heheh.. Ahh wake island.. Twas hard work.

Ian Bell works in Melbourne. I shook his hand and said "thank you", as you do when you meet someone who made Elite :)

He was on the "Politics of Games, Political Games and Political Art Mods" panel.

And EFW *did* get lynched by the a lot of the media and government :)

No time to post more.

quote:Originally posted by lorien


I remember some of the artists having liquid lunches, and plenty could be relied on to put in a good hour of work a day, two and a half days a week.

The Hail programmers have a very different perspective than the artists. Perhaps ask one. I asked everyone except H.

I thought Doord was an arrogant little shit while I was there and my opinion hasn't changed.

I know the programmers worked hard never said they didn't (a game engine in 4-5 month amazing.) And maybe the little amount of work these artist done is the reason they are not working in the industry now.

quote:Originally posted by lorien

He was on the "Politics of Games, Political Games and Political Art Mods" panel.

Ah yeah I really wanted to go to that one. Alas, I don't have anti-gravity mods on my wheelchair :-) The AIE canberra crowd were suggesting lots of mods that I could put on the chair tho (I think the fore-mounted cattle prod was probably the best tho :)

quote:Originally posted by lorienAnd EFW *did* get lynched by the a lot of the media and government :)

Well, I mean, can you imagine what the response would have been if you could attack the guards? [:0]

quote:Originally posted by Rahnem
[img]http://www.planetunreal.com/rahnem/images/Dsc00260.jpg[/img]

From Left to Right (around the table)

Andrew (from AIE - non Sumea)
Ed (brother of Rahnem - non Sumea)
Daniel (Fred on chat)
Anthony (from AIE - non Sumea - in the back)
Dave (kingofdaveness? on Sumea)
Me!
Derick (from AIE - non Sumea)
Moonunit

Rahnem is behind the camera - which I notice you didn't post one of yourself!!! *poke*

Eddy is Rahnem's brother who is me!

I was just tagging along and saying incredibly stupid things about games to fit in!
It was sort of mini holiday for me. I haven't had a day off in 2 years since I started my job.

It was good to meet everyone there!

Ok - it's updated. I wanted to leave it generic as I was not 100% sure of the relationship. I could have made it sound even worse ;)

And at least you had things to say about games - no matter how stupid. Daniel was having random acts of intelligence.

As most people who know me will tell you I usually look like a complete wanker on film, usually pulling some sort of stupid expression. Needless to say I am better behind the camera than in front of it. [:D]

I hope I didn't bore anyone when me and Dave were ranting about modelling stuff. [;)]

Soo Jac... Is joel going to beat derick up for putting his hand on your leg?

Hey, congrats on the new business - sounds like a good strategy for it.

I like the site too - some really vivid images you guys have there.

I'm curious about your business name - how did you guys decide on the
name your company? (It has a nice sound to it)

Cheers,

Mark/CW

Hey congrats and good luck. You have the talent and determination to pull it off :)

My only suggestion for your site, is to have a gallery area where clients can get an idea of all your work.

I wish both you, Matias and the rest of the team, the best of luck.

BTW. Shane's Avatar rocks. Family Guy forever :D

Yeah, The main thing with this kind of company is to show prospective clients that you have skilled employees.

Once you have a good amount of demo stuff to show, pimp your company like crazy.

Congrats and good luck with the new business. [:D]

hey good luck with the business mate, congrats on getting it up n running. [:)] Looks pretty promising. I'm looking forward to you guys getting some art up there.

Thanks guy - yip the galleries are being filled up at the mo, will have them up asap - also fixed a couple of other minor things as well [:D]

CW- the name means simply " HOT " ie we are up in queesnland and that our work is smokin [;)] and prounounced Ka-less-cint or thereabouts [:)]

Congrats [:D] It looks like you've got a great buisness plan, you should do very well.
Nice looking website, too. Looking forward to seeing your demo in action. [:)]

Goodluck to you and all the team! Hope to see you guys working on some AAA titles before long!

Good luck, hope to see something of yours (You helped develop) on the shelf soon!

Oh and one request. Post news on Sumea forums of updates how you are going etc... which i am sure you will [;)]

Nice one Troy, the site looks good, I especially like your logo.

Best of luck, hope it goes well for you and you make lots of dosh :)

Congrats also, the logo kix arse, and urban brawl sound great. Good luck and send some money my way.

good luck Hazard, Matias and rest of crew!!!
its gotta be a bit nerve racking and exiting to be launching this business so all the best :)

Thanks everyone [:D] yup im pretty stoked with it all, theres still a few little niggly things i have to sort out with it, a few spelling mistakes even

We will be posting on sumea as Urban Brawl progresses, with screenshots etc. Also updates in technology and perhaps post some pics of our little studio when we secure some office space [:D]

DEFINATELY watch this space !!!

Rent space off family or friends, its the cheapest alternative [:p].

Also is Urban Brawl going to be freeware? [;)]

Best of luck :)

Tbag - whilst it is the cheapest route of securing space, we may end up with a tool shed, or even worse a makeshift tree-hut, i think we will stick to securing a cosy few square feet of air conditioned office space [:)]

and yes the demo of urban brawl will be freeware, available for all to download! [:D]
the alpha/beta releases will also be up for download for all who wish to take part in the testing process.

If you get do get an office block/space please take some before and after shots for all us Sumeans to drool over [;)].

Count me in for the beta to! I love testing out betas, its always fun to see how the final product turns out [:p].

LOL it wont be an Office "Block". but yes will take some before and afters, we have eyes on a cosy place in the valley at present. will keep informed.

Hey Haz, if ever you need anybody I'd be happy to do some freelance work for you guys, just putting my hand up at this stage to let you know I'm available. I'm Sydney based though but that shouldn't be a big issue.

Thanks Wiz, will keep that in mind [:D]

Just thought I'd chip in (only one week late) congrats on opening up a business! I think this particular kind of 'out-sourcing' will probably become more and more common, but anyway...good luck with it all!

Just dont let any of the big guys hold you down! Read the fine print [;)].

It would be really nice if you guys were contracted by like ID or Valve etc... anything is possible so dont say it isnt!

Cant wait to see that Urban Bowl demo [:p]. Just wondering, if it is for the Xbox does that mean you are possibly going to develop a full game or just a demo? Oh and do you ever plan to expand into a a game developer?

Sorry that im full of so many questions, i just love hearing good news [:)].

Tbag - Yip it would be nutz if we were hired by id / valve, and nope i definately didnt say it wasnt possible, all ill say at this moment in time is that there are big things on the horizon for us. [;)]

Urban Brawl could well end up going down that road ie becoming a full game - but the sole purpose for it is to show we can handle anything, and do just as good a job, if not better that bigger more widely known development houses could.

In the future we could possibly expand into a development studio, just at this time its more feasible for us as a small team to bring in the $$$ by taking the route we are.

Just a note on Urban Brawl, Ill be posting some specs and accompanying screens in the near future, that could well put the shits up some of the bigger development companies out there, as we have REALLY , REALLY pushed the xbox on such a small project, and im doubtless it will raise an eyebrow or three.

[:D] The proof is definately in the pudding !

How many's on your team, they're just all artists are they?

Bullet21: 5 on the team, 3 artists & 2 programmers at present, but this is about to change [:D]

Why's it going to change, Are you going to give me a job?

Lol no, sorry man no jobs available at the mo. As to why its going to change, youll have to watch the website for updates [:D]

Just a note to let people know the gallery page is up,

http://www.kalescentstudios.com

There's a couple of concepts for some of the earlier characters - some in-game screenshots will be up soon, along with some pics of the player models.

Stay tuned...[:D]

So who else is involved in your team? What are your backgrounds?

Hi Vengeance,

There is myself, 2 programmers, 2 artists, and just recently a couple of additions to the team = 1 Sound Tech, 1 Project Manager.

As for backgrounds, you can check out our 'about' page, the new additions details will be up there shortly [:D]

http://www.kalescentstudios.com/about.html

Just to let you know that for some odd reasons that URL is now redirecting to ozdomains.com, have you paid your hosting bills lately?

you may want to look into this.

Yup, are swapping our host at the moment, weve had some issues with the previous one.

All will be well soon enough [:)]

You should come along to http://www.free-play.org in Melbourne this weekend, Mike :) There's a
session custom-made for you :)

The only link I have (recycled from older posts, I think) is this one (and it's Victorian specific):

http://www.film.vic.gov.au/programs/index.shtml (Toward the end - look for "Game Content Development")

Cheers,

Mark/CW

I haven't seen it yet, but they did have Transformers on a PS2 at a local Electronic Boutique.. didn't see any of the game as we walked by, but I did see a poster advertising Transformers for $50. Not bad! Would've definately picked it up if I had a PS2 [:)]

What!!??!! no ps2 for souri! blasphemer!!!! [:p]

I got to see it at federation square on a cinema screen, for a series of talks about the games industry last year. it looked pretty impressive, almost makes me wish I had a ps2.

Got to have a quick tonk of it at EB Toombul today. Pretty spiff from the minute or two I had the controller. Will definitely investigate it further.

Rented it this weekend.

Melbourne House are definitely a force to be reckoned with when it comes to squeezing power out of the PS2 - definitely up there with Kojima's team at KCEJ West and the Polophony Digital folks.

Transformers is a gorgeous game and it runs smoothly. The only problem is that I didn't find it terribly exciting to play - perhaps its just a bit of a hangover from my jaded reviewer period, because a friend of mine loves it to bits. I didn't like the fact that they put the Antarctic level so early. The old television spots from the original series were hilarious too :)

Yeah, I've seen them before, but just like with every article you have to filter them through your common sense and do what's best for you / your team etc. Other than that they're perfectly good articles...

yeah ive heard about this, looks really neat. I went "eep" when i heard it had a Maths Methods requirement but then i found out theres bonuses for IT Systems students, so i should be ok if i wanna go into it :P

ill either be doing this or the bachelor of multimedia and design at this stage. It all really depends on my systems result and whatever happens next year :)
oh and 5 yrs!!! eepness (well 4 if you dont wanna do Idustry based learning but... i do :P ).

Methods is a requirement for nearly all the Multimedia courses in melbourne except the TAFE ones. I find methods quite easy actually. Anyway it's only 4 years cos it's a double degree with a lot of programming as well. But the IBL is probably an essential part of the course.

Methods isnt a requirement for bachelor of multimedia design, its only folio and interview (thats not TAFE incase you couldnt figure)

I'll be watching! Is he going to give out a free shout to Sumea? [:p]

GET BACK TO WORK!!!!!

just saw it. showed some e3, a little ty and john passfield had a few words to say why aussies do well.

what state was this on cos I missed it?

Poo! I missed it
Was it the 6:00 show? Seven nightly news or whatever its called?

qld.

yeah seven nightly news.

lol a good whole 80 seconds if that. better than none tho i spose. and big johns face for about 15 seconds [:D]

Cough up the pixel art now, Gazunta [:)]

I believe it is the future of game development and I think the advantages outweigh the disadvantages... here's just a few.

It keeps everyone on the ball: outsourced work has to be done right and delivered on time or it doesn't get paid for.

Lower overheads: less software/hardware, staff wages/holiday/sick pay etc expenditure and can operate from smaller less expensive premises.

Better tax incentives.

Less time spent training staff.

Less staff to pay during the transition inbetween games.

Can get experienced professionals who specialise in certain aspects of game development working on your game.

Faster development timeframes if required.

Of course there are a few drawbacks such as bouncing ideas of co-workers etc but with video conferencing "virtual" weekly meetings can be arranged for all contractors.

I think this is probably be the preferred model for small/startup development companies as it saves them money. Large companies that have two or more games on the boil at one time and have a staggered development program will probably continue to have a good portion of their staff full time.

I think this could be quite an interesting model and hope that it will find success.

One of the main reasons for this would be that it could allow smaller studios to actually get some work on more high profile titles. Sure it won't be that studios work alone, but it still is a good start. Smaller companies (not indies) start of with a good solid experience background and a just looking for the point where they can get "their break".

This type of system would allow those smaller companies to use their current resources to their fullest potential and actually put some work into a title that would be recognised.

That does not mean this model is perfect but I think that this sort of model does very much support small developers.

My oppinion is that while small developers will benefit - it will depend on the nature of the project, ie what needs to be built etc.

It would indeed help smaller dev companies grow, to medium and perhaps larger sized companies to allow for bigger more involved projects.

I think a unity of several small companies under the umbrella of a single guise or project, would be far more potent a force than a single large dev team.

Flexibility, cost effectiveness, and time management would HAVE to be paramount, otherwise like red5 said noone gets paid.

Im a thumbs up for this business model and think its definately the way to go - to push up the level of working conditions, create more realistic deadlines, and ultimately lead to better wages and greater job satisfaction.

I think this is the way employment in general is moving. Away from the secured full time position to a more flexible contract based approach. Employers want to see this because then they can hire only enough workers to get the job done and not have to pay anbody for the "slack" that's left over. However for employees it is not so good, as they are uncertain about where they will have their next job...

However the flipside of the coin is that experienced people will be more and more expensive to contract out, as the more experienced someone gets the more they know and can contribute to the success of a project, therefore the more they can get from their employer etc. This would probably force some employers to offer full time / permanent positions to more experienced people so that they could give them "security" in lieu of higher contract wages.

quote:Originally posted by Jacana

I think this could be quite an interesting model and hope that it will find success.

I know of a Swedish developer who are basically a core management and marketing team. They outsource just about all their art and programming all over the world (including Australia). These guy's are working on their first title (due for release in the next couple of months) and already have immense respect from some of the largest, longest established developers in the industry.

Look at it from this perspective... these guy's are very passionate about what they're doing and have a clear idea of what their target audience expects.
By choosing to outsource they can be very picky with whom they have working on their game, for instance they can source an AI programmer who lives across the other side of the globe, somebody who might have more experience and be better suited to the task than somebody living in their own country.

Well employment will always be a balancing act between outsourcing and hiring people internally...

Some businesses will be most successful on either end of that spectrum...

I hope it doesn't get to the point where contractors or small companies doing outsourced work are undercutting themselves / giving themselves an extremely slim margin just to remain competitive. And when you're competing against a company from a third world nation who can do the same kind of work but for a much cheaper price, it's definately going to be tough. There's the whole debate on the effects of outsourcing on a country (developing the skillbase offshore etc) too...
I hope the local industry in the future won't be developers with a core team of managers and no content creators, and local teams of content creators fighting it out against third world nations for business. It just spells disaster for creatives and programmers..

With programming that is a real possibility, however with art I doubt that will happen. Art is very specific to the region that it is created in, as different countries have different artistic bents. That's why we haven't see many Indian video games (from India) as their art does not fit into the mainstream of US/UK etc. Well at least that's what I see for the near future, who knows what will happen later on. Perhaps some of these third world countries might become too expensive?

quote:Originally posted by Daemin

That's why we haven't see many Indian video games (from India) as their art does not fit into the mainstream of US/UK etc.

You've probably played or know of a US/UK developed game that has used art produced in an Asian country without your knowledge, for example the #1 selling game in the UK charts (only a few weeks ago) had a lot of it's content produced in S.E. Asia, and this game was developed by a UK studio.

But then you could also classify Australia as being a part of South East Asia, some places that's true...

I've never thought of Australia as being part of S.E. Asia, I'm talking about Asian countries.

I would think companies would be much more comfortable outsourcing art than programming. A few reasons
1) Art can be done anywhere, no matter what the "style" in a particular country is. Once you have the concept (done by your in-house guy) it is a somewhat mechanical, less creative process to convert that into a 3D model etc. if the concept (including its style)is followed.
2) There is much less chance of theft/leak of sensitive codebase when outsourcing art. Art assets are generally atomic, and don't require the artists to have access to any source code.
3) Programming is generally more expensive, in terms of time (and therefore $$). As stated before, art assets are generally atomic, they can be broken up into much shorter term projects. Consider 1 week for a model, vs maybe a month for a certain graphics module. If the art asset is sub-par, then you've only lost a week, and you can even take that asset and improve it, rather than starting from scratch. A sub-par programming module generally does need to be re-written from scratch.

Outsourcing can happen for code, but i would suggest that more likely companies will buy already-written middleware (rather than hire a seperate company to make a new module), and if they want expertise, they will contract some people in for the length of the project, rather than fully outsourcing to a seperate company.
My thoughts anyway.
CYer, Blitz

i have to agree with that generally blitz - but then again, i dont see the problem in say a company like wideload, taking on say a company that Mr x started up that specialises in programming engine technology, and then Mr y's company who runs an art studio that specialises in making only low poly in game models. and so on and so on.

Although quite rightly the process is alot easier and more atomic for art, i think programming could indeed be outsourced to a singular company, rather than breaking the entire engine up into modules and farming each individual piece out.

I think both art and code outsourcing is completely viable, with the right planning and groundwork, but some vastly different measures would definately have to be taken when farming out code, IMO anyway.

Um... how can Australasia be S.E Asia? We're in the Pacific, aren't we?

I think Daemin was taking the piss ;-) he was refering to some of the Asian hotspots within Australia.

Well we are south and east of asia, and sometimes reffered to as being in asia.

I have seen Australia reffered to as being in "South East Asia", "Australasia", "Oceania", "Pacific" etc...

It just depends on your perspective I guess...

quote: i have to agree with that generally blitz - but then again, i dont see the problem in say a company like wideload, taking on say a company that Mr x started up that specialises in programming engine technology, and then Mr y's company who runs an art studio that specialises in making only low poly in game models. and so on and so on.

Although quite rightly the process is alot easier and more atomic for art, i think programming could indeed be outsourced to a singular company, rather than breaking the entire engine up into modules and farming each individual piece out.

You could, but if you are going to do that, why bother, just buy a license to the latest greatest engine, doom3,unreal3, etc. rather than waiting 3 years for your outsourced company to create a brand new one. As i said earlier, i think for anything like this middleware is the more sane option, and will be used much more frequently than contracting/outsourcing to another company.
I'll just add that things like engines aren't game specific the same way as art assets, so there is no real need to develop them specifically if there is already a middleware solution that does the job.
CYer, Blitz

I like your enthusiasm man! if i were in sydney i would definately attend, alas im way up north in the supposidly warm queensland weather.... so i regret to inform i cannot [:(]

Sorry, I would love to come but deadlines coming up next week! Will definitely try next month.

You should come to Free Play and do some networking there too! It's a much more comfortable place to start networking, I think, even though it's interstate [:)]

Sounds lke a great idea but unfortunately I have a house inspection tonight and a tonne of freelance work to plough through.

Cheers
unit

I'm interested in meeting in Sydney, like next month or something?

It would be great to start up something like this semi-regularly ... one of the topics amongst the few poor Sydneysiders at the IGDC was the fact that the games scene is so poor in Sydney. Perhaps even just a chat over beers?

Perhaps you could try setting it up through gamedev.meetup.com like the melbourne one?
CYer, Blitz

Someone already has setup the Sydney one, just sign up here.
http://gamedev.meetup.com/

The next one is on June 15th. Hopefully we can get some sort of turn out. Did anyone turn up last week Jai?

Personally I don't think the meetup really gives us all we need to sustain a good indie development community. An associated forum would be good, being able to email other participants without having to fork out money to get a meetup plus membership and having some scope for negotatiating the time/day would be handy. It seems to me that sumea allows all this and more.

I am formulating evil plans about deposing the melbourne meetup in favour of a regular melbourne sumea gathering.

Anyone else with me in this revolution? [:D]

on killing the melb thingy for a regular sumea meet-up? sure, but probably best to start a new thread on that cause this is about sydney

True, just wondered if Sydneysiders were interested in a similar idea (we could start a new forum here for sumea-meetups if there were others, I'm thinking)

Sounds like a good idea, Combat. I think that a sumea forum would work just as well if not better than the meetup and as you say, its better than paying whatever is they are asking for the 'extra' services. I'll second your revolutionary ideals, comrade. Maybe we should move this to the Sumea related forum for now. If all else fails we can still fall back on the meetup date. Whereever the thing gets organise, the point is that we start meeting up and building those networks.

-kul

Considering that an interview process might take an hour or two of employees' time, that's probably $100-200 worth of effort to interview you. Perhaps they interview 10 people for the supposedly fictional positions. We're talking $1k/2k worth of money here, and I think I'm being fairly conservative in my estimate. Now they also presumably are after the ideas for a particular project. Let's be generous here and say they have a 1 in 100 chance of finding art that would suit what they're after. At least they might stand a chance of making a small profit if they bought tatts tickets with that money...

I think your comments on what to send to a company are valuable, in fact I'd encourage you to remove some company names to further focus upon the helpful and non-libel-suit-inducing elements of your post ;->

Cheers,

Mark

Like I said before, there are many people in the world that come up with the exactly same ideas at different times without knowing of each other's thoughts. It's called coincidence.

if you had a paticular liking to a company and you wanted to work there..then

1) of course youd jimmy your folio to suit their style, hell id even ask them what they specifically want to see.

2) be prepared to do as they command, + more to show initiative.

Obviously your a bit disgruntled animator, but ive got one question regarding your accusations, why on earth would a games company waste time and money setting up interviews for the purpose of stealing hopefulls "ideas", when there are millions of ideas on the net, at the click of a button?
you make it sound as if they did this on purpose, which i highly doubt was the case.

With bluetoungue, replying to you and asking you to "not send stuff for a year" was probably more a case of "we already have this, how about creating a new reel so we can see any advancements youve made"

Again if you think that they are just stealing your ideas for free - a reel doesnt give source files, which goes back to what i said earlier - it doesnt make any sense as there are libraries of complete 3d models available for download on the net.

If you see designs that a games company has taken from you and copied into a game - then i guess you have a point there - but i highly doubt thats the case.

I agree with all of the points you made about creating a reel tho [:)]

I'm interested in your perspective of IRGurus, and what these "lawyer tactics" entail.
I don't see why the boss of a company shouldn't take some major interest in new employees. If i was going to be paying someone several thousand dollars a year i'd want to know who they were...
CYer, Blitz

Hi all, when I put up my comments last time, I was expecting some harsh replies! Like I said, it might not happen to you but at least more people are aware of what some companies are capable of doing (that's why I gave names). I'm sure there's a lot of hard working folks in those Co. I mentioned but I hope no one would have to go through what I did too. But as for interviews, it's a 2 way channel. People don't work 8 hours straight a day with no rest, even at my work I'd have time to surf the net, have lunch, etc...and still get paid. I think a lot of people would be surprised as to how many high end IT specialists are paid lotsa $$$ just doing their own thing. That's where the interview comes in, where both parties are free to meetup. As long as you're on time or earlier, there should be mutual respect from both sides and I got that from those that are fellow artists themselves, which is great. But unfortunately, it's the bosses that hire you, and the ones I mentioned just took advantage of the situation (ie. I'm the boss so .....). They don't know about the work involved and they go through the interview simply by looking at your CV and making comments/ criticism on it. You done your homework, they didn't.
No, no one literally takes someone's idea and use it.... they edit it, change a few things...but it's the initial spark that sets things going...that's what I mean. Remember, you have to send in your stuff first, which they would then decide if you get an interview or not. If you do get an interview, they're interested in how you made the reel, etc. But throughout all these stages, there's no obligations on their part to even pay you a cent so a small email telling you "sorry" would be nice to make up for the effort you've put in should you not be selected. At least people know what happened to their application. So...that's why job ads are always there all the time.
Yeah, after some of those interviews I was angry..... but I'm so over it now. Looking back at myself it was quite funny. But the intention here was to let people know what can happen cause you don't learn this by looking at their websites! Good luck all! [:)]

animator, I think you may have perceived too much from your experiences.

First off I agree that you (or anyone) deserves at the minimum a simple "thankyou" email for submitting a resume/portfolio whether they have a job advertised or not, it's common decency. On the other hand, take it all in your stride if you don't get a reply, never give up and turn any anger into a positive to drive you on further.

Secondly I don't believe any dev's intentionally advertise jobs as a means to get ideas for games etc.

Regarding your interviews with the "bosses", surely you must realise that senior management or the CEO will correspond with the relevant department (lead artist/progammer) and discuss your work before asking you in for a second interview. They would have already made up their minds concerning your abilities/skills. The second interview is to find out more about you as a person, to see if you'll fit in to their working environment.

I'm guessing you feel better about getting this stuff off your chest but honestly, it's not the way to go about it.
If you really want to work in the games industry it's not wise to alienate yourself from the relatively few developers there in Melbourne who may be your only hope.

Hi Red 5, you've raised good points here, thanks.It can be a delicate issue, and like you said you don't wish to remove your chances of working in the games line. I'm sure a lot out there have had the same experiences, but also because of this, they remain quiet.
I'm lucky in a way cause I can work in another IT line, so it's not the only choice I have. What I wrote is to let others know there're people out there who'd experience the same thing. In a way, it's a wake up call to those companies who're still behaving like what I mentioned.
Not ALL companies place bogus jobs, some don't even mention about jobs at all. If what I wrote was interpreted as every company doing this, then I apologise. [:)]
As for ideas, it could be anything (ie. a particular item, atmosphere, drawing style, artworks, special fx)not just 3D objects. On top of that, it's also to let them know the standard of work that's out there. There's lots of advantages.
The CEO part, well one time...during the 2nd interview the boss didn't even know what I was there for, and after searching and finally finding my CV from the artists desk, went through and made unprofessional comments which was not related to what I was applying for. I didn't drive all the way to be interrogated. But then, you can't expect everyone to behave professionally.
So to applicants who don't know what to expect, apply as normal but just be careful.

And Marty, where's my spelling mistakes? I'd like to know. But anyway, you should be at primary school, not here!

okay okay, no need to get personal im sure, marty's in his 30's i think so is well past the primary school age.

But one thing, do paragraph your messages!! dang man its like a chore having to read through a solid block of text.

I personally still have a gripe about your claims about getting ideas / level of work / styles etc from local newbs, hunting for jobs - any business person with half a brain would never go through so much effort / time and money in conducting such interviews if all they wanted to do was get this kind of knowledge.

having the internet, is basically a few clicks away from doing all the idea hunting they need, and would provide a far better and broader perspective on the talent and whats happening now - im sorry but i just cant believe that at all.

Definately how your perceiving your experiences i think animator - with that one at least.

You said up there that " theres no obligation on their part to pay you a cent... " but they have spent hundreds possibly thousands of dollars into interviewing possible candidates, taking time away from development to conduct them, so yes while they arent paying you money - they are giving up the most precious resource of all in our industry - time.

Perhaps the CEO was testing your personality to see if you were a gutless "yes man" or to see if you were brave enough to tell your boss when he's wrong about something. Just a thought :P
CYer, Blitz

Hey there, Marty... truly sorry about that remark. Thought you were one of those kids just out for some sarcasm. My apologies.

HazarD, Blitz...good points mentioned. In some instances, the higher you are in management, the less physical work you have (allocated to the people under you). Apart from the occasional client meetings and group dev. meetups, there's a lot of time if you plan ahead.

The ones that interviewed me I gather are those that go around looking at their people's work (making comments, changes)or whatever. The actual work's not done by them. They will still get paid no matter what they do. Now, I'm not saying everyone's like this in upper management, just some of the ones I mentioned in my first post.

One example from my "ideas" query: This guy actually copied my work from cd, without asking for permission first! Only after the process he then mentioned it's part of the "interview" criteria.

It's good to test the knowledge of applicants, yes, but it could have been done in a more professional manner. If you can't even show the applicant you can prepare for an interview, then what gives you the right to interrogate the person instead? This is about the 2nd interview with the bosses, not the artists. In fact, I was very happy with the artists' interview.

Everyone's going to have different experiences, some could turn around and say, well.... he/ she wasn't like that!.... Sometimes it can also depend on luck, timing and mood. My point from the very begining was to highlight the matter to everyone here.

Catcha later.

Hey animator ? thanks for your insights, its always good to get other peoples perspective on things. However, I?m afraid that I also have to disagree on your ideas about developers stealing concepts and work. I kind of went overboard (again) with this post, but I just needed to sort this stuff out myself. (Sorry about the length guys ? I?ve actually cut out a couple of paragraphs, also![:p]).

First and foremost I want to say that I?m an industry newbie, so my opinions really aren?t worth all that much! (That?s just for later when people point out that I?m wrong!).

I just think that when someone sends out reels or demo code to game developers, or posts content online, in the hope of finding work, it is just assumed that said content is in the public domain and no longer really belongs to you ? you certainly created it and deserve all credit for the work, but I think it just goes without saying that you no longer have control of that content. If it?s so valuable to you that you don?t want anyone stealing it, the last thing you would do is put it online or give it to developers!

In a recent job interview, the developer made sure they clearly stated that any work I give them on my demo disc is legally theirs ? not that they would use it, it was just as a precaution, because the last thing they want is to get sued! I didn?t have a problem with this as all the content on the disc I made specifically for the purpose of finding employment. Was this the wrong thing to do? I don?t think so, but I may be wrong.

It?s different for me though because my work is still pretty crappy ? I know for a fact no one would want to steal it! [:D]

But seriously, why would a developer steal work/concepts from an industry newbie, when they have their own *cough* highly paid *cough* professional artists working for them? It kind of sounds like you?re being a bit paranoid, animator?

Oh yeah, and interview/interrogation ? what?s the difference? [:)]

quote:Originally posted by animator:
One example from my "ideas" query: This guy actually copied my work from cd, without asking for permission first!

Yeah, and? I don?t see the problem. I mean if you were to have an online portfolio, would you get upset whenever someone downloaded something off it? If you don?t want people to copy stuff off your folio, then don?t put that content on there in the first place!

Like I said though, this is all just my opinion. I suppose it would also be different for an experienced developer with professional work to show (which would probably be copywrite protected anyway) and an amateur. But if someone in the know could respond, I/we would love to know:

What are the legal rights to content in portfolios?

quote:Originally posted by palantir

But seriously, why would a developer steal work/concepts from an industry newbie, when they have their own *cough* highly paid *cough* professional artists working for them

I had a similar discussion with a friend about employers taking advantage of applicants, specifically companies that give applying programmers tasks or real problems that the company needs solving and will use. The answer was similar to yours - it says something about the professionalism of the employees there if the company has to use help from job applicants off the street..

As I understand it, Palantir, in Australia anything you produce you automatically have copyright over it, assuming you've not signed your rights away through something horrible like an employment contract ;)

I suspect that what the developer you were talking to was saying was that the media on which your work was on was now legally their property? Otherwise you would not legally be able to take a copy to the next interview you went to.

When you place something on line, you don't relinquish your copyright over it, but I agree, if you don't want it ripped off, don't put it online :)

Hi all, when I first started this thread, I really didn?t think it?ll generate such a discussion like this!

I thought, well, some would read it and take precautions while others would think ?Whatever, man?.. Just because you didn?t make it?? If I had someone telling me all this before I go for the interviews, it would have been really helpful to me. In any case, everyone's got their own opinion.

The aim was to highlight the situation and those responsible for it. It?s something everyone would have to experience themselves to know what it?s like.
Now, a lot of people are saying ?Why on earth would they do something like this? Putting out bogus ads just to get ideas?. What a load of [?.!]?

Don?t underestimate the influence of a demo reel. It tells the viewer many things. What works and what doesn?t, how good their skills are (3D/ 2D), their thinking process, what?s popular to create, their influences, what?s in fashion/ trends etc. In many ways, it?s like getting people to take part in a survey.

A lot of people are thinking only the basic level here, which is, taking someone?s work and using it as their own. It goes much deeper than this. Think of this like watching a movie for the first time. You don?t know if it?s good or bad, but since you have not seen it before, it?s new and exciting. After you?ve seen it, you will make your judgement. If it?s good, you?ll wait for the DVD and if it?s not, you?ll tell all your friends how it sucked.

But either way, as a creative person, you?re already generating your own ideas from this, what was cool (i.e. the special effects, the look and motion of the characters, the atmosphere it was set in).

From what you liked, you?d probably add something more to give your version a stronger appeal than what you?ve seen, so it?s better.

For example, Person B watches Person A build their house with straws and Person B realise that?s not good enough so Person B build another house with sticks. You are Person C, and after watching the 2, realise both are not good enough so you build yours with bricks. Your brain is the storage unit, you might not need the info you see now, but down the road, in future games, you might. These are the ideas I?m talking about, from observing others? work.

Yes, you can click away and get models from the internet. But the ones I?ve seen that are free, well they look like block models plus if you do use it, you have to mention the author as well. For the more detailed models, you have to pay. And yes, there are lots of personal websites with free downloadable reels. But unless you have Fastweb, you have to wait for a long time to download plus you have to search for the info. Generally, people want things done and done ASAP!

As for a reel, well?.it?s free. People make the effort to send it to you! You just have to watch it. Good, you might replay it later. Bad, a few seconds later it?s in the rubbish bin. It doesn?t cost the company too much trouble to put an ad on their website. The rewards exceed their effort in doing this.

It?s very much a ?window shoppers? industry, meaning?.. lots of looking, very little buying. It?s getting to be like that all round the world but like all things, there?s always going to be people that will exploit the market.

My experience at Tantalus was such a case. The guy was just interested in what ?other? works I had brought to show him and whether he could keep it. Basically throughout the interview, I felt there was no intention on hiring as he kept asking me what he could copy instead of what I could contribute to the company. After he put my CD into the pc, he skipped the asking bit! After the interview, he said to give him a call in a week and when I did, it was then to call after 6 months time as one of their Gameboy games have just gone gold. I think everyone knows what happened next.

What should have been made clear at the very beginning was the truth, which is, he just wants to see my work and the company wasn?t hiring. I would not have bothered to go all the way to the city if that was the case.

When I first started in this industry, I had a head the size of a melon! It was like ?Wow, I got in! Straight out of Uni and into an animation company! But as the months went by, it was not as fun as the ad implies. Late nights and some weekends, changes to the animation (always in the last minute!), synchronising with v/o, etc. I guess the best part was actually seeing everything put together (my magnum opus) so it was worth it.

Okay, I?ve been at this for a long time now. I?ve highlighted the negative aspects of some companies in my first post so it?s only fair I include the positive ones now.

a) Bullant Studios: Not hiring at the moment but the Art Director took the time to go through my reel commenting on my strength/ weaknesses and what I could have done to improve the scenes. Much appreciated.

b) AMH: Send an email saying they liked it but required someone with many years of games dev experience right now (a bit of a paradox cause work=experience). But thoughtful nevertheless.

c) Torus: Send a formal letter that they liked it and on hold till further work comes their way (it?s a nice way of the ?sorry? letter I think!).

Oh, and interview/ interrogation? I think interview works more like an exam (tests your wits) while interrogation is more aggressive, insulting you if need be (just watch the news).
Okay, I can go for dinner (YAWN). You can all wake up now.