Industry and Education

Institutions with publicly available agreements. More will follow.

Changes:
August 2:
Fixed some pasting from unicode to ascii issues.
Added AFTRS and UTS
August 3
Added Deakin and Swinburne Universities
Made the Murdoch quote longer.
August 4
Added Flinders and Adelaide unis from posts below
Added the University of Melbourne

Queensland University of Technology http://www.qut.edu.au/admin/mopp/D/D_08_01.html
quote:
8.1.4 c i QUT has no automatic right to intellectual property created by students during the course of their study at QUT. However, where student creators assign intellectual property rights to QUT, this policy will apply to them no less favourably than it applies to QUT staff. QUT may seek to have a student assign intellectual property to QUT where:
*there is a substantial use of QUT resources beyond which is normally provided for their course of study or research
*the intellectual property is created by a team involving at least one QUT staff member of which the student is part.

James Cook University http://www.jcu.edu.au/office/Policy/ippol.htm
quote:
4.5 The University makes no claim to automatic ownership of Intellectual Property created by students in the course of their studies at the University.

RMIT University http://mams.rmit.edu.au/l11qeacwcb081.pdf
quote:
Subject to any employment relationship between the University and a student or
any provision in this policy, any R&D intellectual property created solely by a
student is owned by that student.
Where a student contributes to the development of R&D intellectual property
through research or other activities involving other students or members of staff
or uses existing University intellectual property (background intellectual
property), the moral rights of authorship of all those contributing to the creation
of the intellectual property will be recognised in accordance with University
policy.
Where a student is involved in a project or specific commission in respect of
which the University or any party to an agreement with the University has
provided funds, equipment, facilities or supervision, the University may require
the student to be a party to an intellectual property and/or confidentiality
agreement before commencement.

Victoria University http://wcf.vu.edu.au/LegalPolicy/PDF/POR040809000.PDF
quote:
6.3 The University makes no claim to ownership of intellectual property created by students,
except where the creation of that intellectual property involves;
or may involve substantial use of institutional resources beyond those which are
normally provided to students;
the use of pre-existing IP owned by the University or other party that forms the basis of
the student's research project;
the student receiving specific input from University staff in relation to the intellectual
property;
a project supported by funding provided by the University with the objective of
developing IP of commercial value;
a project supported by funding provided by an external sponsor with the objective of
developing IP of commercial value.

La Trobe University http://www.latrobe.edu.au/rgso/information/cont_ip_policy_oct03.pdf
quote:
The University will not assert rights in a students invention unless:
(a) a member of staff of the University (such as the students academic
supervisor) is a co-inventor; or
(b) a third party has been granted rights to exploit or otherwise use the
invention; or
(c) the University and the student have agreed in writing.

Murdoch University http://www.murdoch.edu.au/admin/legsln/statutes/statute18.html
quote:
3.1 Subject to the further provisions of this Stature, the University is the owner of all intellectual property to which this Statute applies.
3.2 This Statute applies to:
(i) Intellectual property created by a staff member in the course of her or his employment by the University;
(ii) Intellectual property created by a student in the course of her or his studies, scholarship or research with or at the University
(iii) Intellectual property, the creation of which has been substantially contributed to by the University (or by any third person either on behalf of the University or by virtue of an agreement with the University) by the provision of resources, facilities, apparatus, supervision, salary or other funding.
3.3 (a) Notwithstanding anything contained in subsections 3.1 and 3.2, a staff member is the owner (and the University hereby formally waives any claim it would otherwise have to ownership) of the copyright in her or his conventional scholarly output. Likewise a student is the owner of the copyright in all original work produced by her or him in the course of or for the purposes of her or his studies, scholarship or research with or at the University.
(b) A staff member and a student may deal with and exploit such material freely without any requirement of explicit approval by the University.
3.4 If requested to do so by a staff member or a student the University must, without delay and at no cost to that person, execute a formal written assignment in favour of that person of such copyright as it may enjoy in respect of any written work to which subsection 3.3 applies.

University of Tasmania http://www.utas.edu.au/universitycouncil/legislation/pol_intellprop.pdf
quote:
3.1.2 Generally the University will not assert ownership of Intellectual Property rights developed
by students, however in consideration of benefits granted to students pursuant to clause
3.1.5, the University may seek to claim ownership of Intellectual Property rights developed
by students in the following circumstances:
a) when Intellectual Property (except copyright in a thesis) arises from a student's project
AND Background Intellectual Property is made available by the University for the
purposes of the project; and
b) when Intellectual Property (except copyright in a thesis) arises from a project which has in
whole, or in part, been funded by an external party, or where an external party has some
other interest in a project.
The University or the external party may require an assignment of a student's Intellectual
Property rights to the University.

AFTRS http://www.aftrs.edu.au/index.cfm?objectid=8FB1243B-D0B7-4CD6-F9AA21065…
quote:
XVI. COPYRIGHT OF STUDENT WORK
XVI.I
The copyright of all audio and/or visual products including films, television and radio programs and computer software programs made under the supervision of AFTRS staff and/or financed by AFTRS is vested in AFTRS.
XVI.II
The copyright of all original written materials (ie all those other than described in XV.I above) including scripts and unproduced musical scores remains vested in the author, with the exception that AFTRS may require a student to grant to AFTRS a non-exclusive licence to make one audio or audiovisual program utilising any such materials written under the supervision of AFTRS staff and/or financed by AFTRS.
XVI.III
The copyright credits for any film, television and radio program produced at AFTRS should read ? Australian Film Television and Radio School (year) in full.
XVI.IV
Students may not remove from AFTRS any films or videos (prints or negatives) or radio programs without all necessary authorisations.
XVI.V
On termination of the course of study the student will hand over to AFTRS all original materials and copyright work referred to in XV.I above. After the termination of the course of study, the student shall not make use of any such materials or copyright works without the prior consent of AFTRS.

University of Technology Sydney http://www.gsu.uts.edu.au/policies/intellectualprop.html
quote:
2.5 Intellectual Property created by Students
Students, not being employees of the University, own the Intellectual Property that they generate. In particular, Students own the copyright in their theses. The Rules of the University require, as a condition of candidature, that the University reserves the right, and under this Policy asserts that right, to retain the original or copy of any drawings, models, designs, plans and specifications, essays, theses or other work executed by a student as part of their course, or submitted for any award or competition conducted by the University. Such retention is not to affect any copyright or other intellectual property right that may exist in such student work (refer Rule 2.9 of the Rules of the University). In cases where the University exercises, or wishes to exercise, its right under Rule 2.9.2 (ii) or (vii) the students shall grant the University a non-exclusive, royalty free, perpetual, irrevocable, world wide licence (including the right to sub-license) to make available for consultation, loan, or copying, at the discretion of the University Librarian subject to the Rules, any copy of a thesis deposited with the University Library in accordance with Rules 3.4.13, 3.5.13, or 3.6.5, subject to any pre- existing lawful confidentiality agreement.
Where a Student's supervisor makes a contribution to Intellectual Property the Intellectual Property will be owned jointly by the Student (who is not an employee), and the University (as the supervisor's employer).
Where a Student participates in a research team whose members include Staff Members, the Intellectual Property arising from or created or developed by the research team will be owned jointly by the Student (who is not an employee), and the University (as the University Staff Members' employer).

Deakin University http://theguide.deakin.edu.au/TheDeakinGuide.nsf/30f8b1212212f1bfca256e…
quote:
4.1.....Subject to section 7 when a member of the staff, or a student, of the University has made an invention in the course of University duties or studies, that invention shall be the property of the University.

4.2.....The University may by resolution of the Council appoint any person as its agent or nominee for the purpose of developing and exploiting any such invention, and may assign any or all of its rights therein to that nominee.

Swinburne University of Technology http://ppd.swin.edu.au/edupro/default.htm
quote:
Except where an agreement to the contrary has been negotiated between the University and an Originator, other than as expressly provided herein, the University owns Intellectual Property created by:
...
Students where generation of the property has involved use of the University?s resources and/or services beyond that which is ordinarily provided to Students enrolled for the particular course or program;

Melbourne University http://www.unimelb.edu.au/admindiv/IPPolicy/
quote:
Note that in general, students own intellecutal property they create in the course of their studies.

Flinders University http://www.flinders.edu.au/ppmanual/policySecretariat/ip.htm
quote:
8
Students

8.1
The University acknowledges that in law, ownership of intellectual property developed by a student in the course of his or her studies at the University vests in the originator on creation. The University therefore makes no claim to ownership of intellectual property developed by a student except where a student has developed the intellectual property directly in the course of working as a staff member of the University, in which case the provisions of this Policy relating to staff will apply.

8.2
The University may require students who will be undertaking research work with, or under the supervision of, staff in an investigative or creative activity to enter into an agreement, prior to commencement of that activity, to assign intellectual property rights to the University upon request.

8.3
The University will institute procedures to explain the content and effect of any such agreement, and will advise students to obtain independent advice before signing an agreement.

8.4
The University will require students to assign intellectual property rights only in situations where there is a significant contribution to the development of that intellectual property by a staff member or where the University has pre-existing ownership of related intellectual property.

8.5
A student who has assigned intellectual property rights to the University will be treated thereafter, with respect to this policy, as if he or she were a member of staff.

8.6
Nothing in this policy shall restrict the rights of students to hold copyright in their theses and other forms of assessment exercises and to submit these for examination. The University may require examiners to keep confidential the contents of a thesis where necessary to enhance or preserve the value of intellectual property contained therein.

Adelaide University http://www.adelaide.edu.au/ari/researchers/ipmanage.html
quote:
5. INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY PRODUCED BY STUDENTS

5.1 If no employment relationship (see paragraph 4) exists between the University and a student, the student owns his/her intellectual property.

5.2 Students have, without exception, the unrestricted right to have their theses and/or work examined and to submit, subject to paragraphs 5.4 and 5.5, all or any part of their theses and/or work for publication. The University will also implement procedures which will ensure the integrity of students' copyright.

5.3 In the event that the intellectual property of a student's work is considered commercially viable, the University will encourage the student to develop and protect this property by offering the services of Luminis Pty Ltd in assessing, protecting and prosecuting the commercial application of the intellectual property. The student will be entitled to a share in the profits deriving from such development on the same basis as University staff (see paragraph 8) provided a licence to develop the commercial potential of the intellectual property is conferred upon the University.

5.4 In the case of team research, or research conducted for or in conjunction with outside bodies, the University may require the student to sign a confidentiality agreement whereby the student undertakes to maintain, in the strictest confidence, all relevant information pertaining to the project. This undertaking is qualified by the recognition by all parties to this confidentiality agreement that it may be necessary for the student to discuss aspects of the project with the student's supervisor and with other staff and students involved in the project. The student will at all times be entitled to submit reports of work-in-progress to his/her supervisor or departmental postgraduate co-ordinator.

5.5 In exceptional cases, and with the full concurrence of the student, the University may agree to public access to a thesis being restricted for a limited period (not exceeding five years) to enable the student, the University (and outside funding bodies if applicable) to benefit commercially from the results of the research project.

5.6 Students who propose commercially to develop their intellectual property outside the University are encouraged to inform the University of their intentions, and to obtain a statement from the University that is does not claim an interest in the property, before they seek outside development.

Monash University http://www.monash.edu.au/pubs/calendar/statutes/statutes11.html
quote:
2. Ownership of intellectual property
2.1 Subject to section 2.4, the university owns intellectual property, other than intellectual property created by a student

That's all the institutions listed on sumea and here http://www.gdaa.com.au/teachers-forum/courses.html

Does anyone know of anymore? I'm sure there are more. Please post below if you do.

Institutions without publicly available policies or with policies that I couldn't find on their website. Please email me (via my sumea profile) with corrections. More are likely to follow.

Southbank Institute

QANTM

Crash Education

The Academy of Interactive Entertainment (both Canberra and Melbourne)

Holmesglen Institute of TAFE

Melbourne International College

Flinders Uni doesn't have any game-specific courses, not that it would stop anyone from game "research" in honours/masters/PhD. So here it is:

http://www.flinders.edu.au/ppmanual/policySecretariat/ip.htm

quote:8
Students

8.1
The University acknowledges that in law, ownership of intellectual property developed by a student in the course of his or her studies at the University vests in the originator on creation. The University therefore makes no claim to ownership of intellectual property developed by a student except where a student has developed the intellectual property directly in the course of working as a staff member of the University, in which case the provisions of this Policy relating to staff will apply.

8.2
The University may require students who will be undertaking research work with, or under the supervision of, staff in an investigative or creative activity to enter into an agreement, prior to commencement of that activity, to assign intellectual property rights to the University upon request.

8.3
The University will institute procedures to explain the content and effect of any such agreement, and will advise students to obtain independent advice before signing an agreement.

8.4
The University will require students to assign intellectual property rights only in situations where there is a significant contribution to the development of that intellectual property by a staff member or where the University has pre-existing ownership of related intellectual property.

8.5
A student who has assigned intellectual property rights to the University will be treated thereafter, with respect to this policy, as if he or she were a member of staff.

8.6
Nothing in this policy shall restrict the rights of students to hold copyright in their theses and other forms of assessment exercises and to submit these for examination. The University may require examiners to keep confidential the contents of a thesis where necessary to enhance or preserve the value of intellectual property contained therein.

Am I getting ripped off here?

So Murdoch owns all rights to my IP. I think it is ridiculous, plus the fact that it is the only UNI on that list that does it (if I read it correctly). So if I make a really awesome game for this semesters project they own all rights to it? Does that mean they can market and sell it? (Not that I am boasting in being able to make a game worth selling)

And does that mean that because the UNI owns the IP rights, I cannot sell my own game?
I am actually quite shocked!

Well I'm not going to be drawn on whether or not you're getting ripped, I work and study @ La Trobe [:)] and I'm not a lawyer.

Deakin claims ownership too, and there are still quite a few more I have to add to the list.

I'm just about to add a longer quote from Murdoch- it seems to contradict the above. To really understand these things you need a contract/IP lawyer, which is why I suggested that perhaps the IGDA could help in the thread that caused this one. A really good contract lawyer costs around $250 per hour.

I suggest your first point of call is your SRC. Then if you are still unhappy the NUS. And at least Murdoch make this info available and you have an SRC to represent you...

Incidently how I find these documents is by entering "intellectual property ownership" in the search box on the institution's website.

quote:Originally posted by Acer

So Murdoch owns all rights to my IP. And does that mean that because the UNI owns the IP rights, I cannot sell my own game?
I am actually quite shocked!

Yes, if Murdoch does own your IP then that is what it would mean.

However my reading of the quote says they don't.

quote:
...a student is the owner of the copyright in all original work produced by her or him in the course of or for the purposes of her or his studies, scholarship or research with or at the University...

For other places who DO claim IP though - I'm not sure if VSU has hit yet, but this would be a good thing to take to your student union. Get your money's worth. Kick up a fuss. Ask the question whether you can ever use anything done at uni as a portfolio to get a job and see the entire arts faculty runnning terrified.

(edited after rereading, looks like Murdoch doesn't claim IP)

And here's one for Adelaide University, found exactly as lorien did the others.

http://www.adelaide.edu.au/ari/researchers/ipmanage.html

quote:
5. INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY PRODUCED BY STUDENTS

5.1 If no employment relationship (see paragraph 4) exists between the University and a student, the student owns his/her intellectual property.

5.2 Students have, without exception, the unrestricted right to have their theses and/or work examined and to submit, subject to paragraphs 5.4 and 5.5, all or any part of their theses and/or work for publication. The University will also implement procedures which will ensure the integrity of students' copyright.

5.3 In the event that the intellectual property of a student's work is considered commercially viable, the University will encourage the student to develop and protect this property by offering the services of Luminis Pty Ltd in assessing, protecting and prosecuting the commercial application of the intellectual property. The student will be entitled to a share in the profits deriving from such development on the same basis as University staff (see paragraph 8) provided a licence to develop the commercial potential of the intellectual property is conferred upon the University.

5.4 In the case of team research, or research conducted for or in conjunction with outside bodies, the University may require the student to sign a confidentiality agreement whereby the student undertakes to maintain, in the strictest confidence, all relevant information pertaining to the project. This undertaking is qualified by the recognition by all parties to this confidentiality agreement that it may be necessary for the student to discuss aspects of the project with the student's supervisor and with other staff and students involved in the project. The student will at all times be entitled to submit reports of work-in-progress to his/her supervisor or departmental postgraduate co-ordinator.

5.5 In exceptional cases, and with the full concurrence of the student, the University may agree to public access to a thesis being restricted for a limited period (not exceeding five years) to enable the student, the University (and outside funding bodies if applicable) to benefit commercially from the results of the research project.

5.6 Students who propose commercially to develop their intellectual property outside the University are encouraged to inform the University of their intentions, and to obtain a statement from the University that is does not claim an interest in the property, before they seek outside development.

I believe Media Design School in Auckland (www.mediadesign.school.nz) have a fairly straightforward IP policy where the students own everything (though I expect there is perhaps some requirement to allow MDS to be able to showcase student work).

Indeed, they actively encourage students to try to commercialise their work as far as I know.

Any students or officials from MDS, feel free to correct me on any of the above :)

Thanks mcdrewski. That's my point about Murdoch- it also says "the University is the owner of all intellectual property to which this Statute applies", which was the part I spotted first.

And yes, RIGHT NOW is the time to make a huge fuss about this stuff, VSU is specifically designed to remove/lessen students abilities to get things changed.

Another thing to ask is if you are able to continue work done as an undergrad at another uni as a postgrad.

AFTRS seem to be pushing it with their agreement too- imho a bit dissapointing after the fuss they made about themselves @ freeplay.

Please post any that I miss, I'll integrate them into the main list.

This is exactly the sort of issue that SRCs and the NUS love to get into big fights with institutions over. Don't hesitate to take it to them- it's exactly what they are there for.

I think everyone should be asking any institution that doesn't make this information clearly available on their website lots of very difficult questions... Make a real pest of yourself (like I have). A wonderfull place to ask these questions is in public, when a head of school or the like appears on a panel [:D]

quote:Originally posted by Mario
(though I expect there is perhaps some requirement to allow MDS to be able to showcase student work).

That is also something to watch out for. It seems fair enough at first, but what happens if you are unhappy with an institution and they claimed the right to use your work to promote themselves? I think an institution should have to ask permission, and this shouldn't be an automatic condition of study. Group work of course makes this complicated.

Also make sure that if you have such a clause it only makes claim to the work you did as part of your studies at that institution.

Still another point about institutions that claim ownership: do they only claim work that you do using their equipment in classtime, or do they try to claim work you did at home, using your own equipment, in your own time too?

This is turning out to be a wealth of important knowledge - good job on getting it all down so far guys.

I wonder who owns the software licenses the students use, and if they are professional or academic.

Scott.

quote:Originally posted by Mario

I believe Media Design School in Auckland (www.mediadesign.school.nz) have a fairly straightforward IP policy where the students own everything (though I expect there is perhaps some requirement to allow MDS to be able to showcase student work).

Here is the official word I got from MDS

"Students at Media Design School retain ownership of any intellectual property they independently create while studying at Media Design School, except where one or more staff members make a contribution to the creation of intellectual property in connection with a research project, or where there are written agreements in place, prior to the development of the IP with the school or a third party.

The school retains the rights to utilize all student work produced by students for exhibition and communication purposes."

QANTM's software is only on student licences, and you are not permitted to use them for work outside of qantm. Also students retain the IP of any work they produce at qantm, or so they told us when i started there. It would be listed in the student handbok if this is stil the case (i think you can get this off the qantm website).

Sorry LiveWire, after skimming I don't see any details of IP ownership mentioned in either the student handbook or student policies document available at http://www.qantm.com/handbook_policies.php . I would like to have made a mistake, so please double check.

Please, if you are going to make statements about an institutions policies include a URL so everyone can check. Also note that directly quoting a document without a full reference is plagiarism (a form of academic misconduct).

quote:Originally posted by rezn0r

I wonder who owns the software licenses the students use, and if they are professional or academic.

Scott.

Pretty much all institutions use academic software, which could cause big problems if a student wants to commercialise work (or for that matter if an institution wants to). I avoid this issue in my research by refusing to use anything that isn't open source.

lorien: sorry, i din't actually check the student hand book, i was just quoting what i remember being told when i began my diploma in 2003. ofcourse qantm is under new ownership now too, so things may have changed. i'll have a look anyway next time i get the chance and see what i can find.

I made a direct enquiry to AIE about their policy and recieved this reply. I have edited it merely to take the contact details out of the email so the poor guy who sent me the response isn't spammed out of existence for helping! [:D]

My Email
quote:
Hi there,

There's been some recent discussion about Intellectual Property terms for various game courses in Australia on sumea.com.au, and I was writing to enquire as to what AIE's terms are.

Most large universities make their terms and conditions publically available, but I haven't been able to find yours on your website, can you direct me to them or send a copy through?

Thanks!

AIE's Response
quote:
Hi Drew,

Thanks for your enquiry!

The present I.P. agreement between A.I.E and students only requires that the AIE have access to the student's work for promotional and marketing purposes and, as far as possible, we credit the authors. Otherwise students retain the I.P. of individual assets they create.

For games students, in particular in the past, the AIE I.P. agreement has reflected the close working relationship between the students and local development studios.

Currently if a games student works with a third party outside of AIE that may involve developing unique I.P., then an agreement between that third party and the student will cover all I.P issues.

For the past few years, I.P. on team projects created on educational licenses in game development stays with AIE, though it is our policy to give the I.P. to students on the teams who want to try and turn these projects into commercial games. In all instances, where individual assets can be identified as belonging to a student, then he/she retains the I.P. of that individual asset.

AIE has not and does not create any commercial value from this student work.

It probably is a good idea to publish this policy. At the moment all applicants are made aware of AIE policies regarding I.P. through our Student Handbook prior to enrollment. We have been thinking of publishing our whole student handbook containing all our policies and procedures, but we'll have to discuss that here further. It's likely to happen shortly when we put up more material for next semester's intake.

I hope this information helps you out and if you need anything further please let me know. Thanks for the link to sumea.com.au, will have to have a look at the thread!

Kind regards,

Matt

Student Liaison

(edited to add my original email)

One can't help but wonder about the IP arragements of a course such as this quoted from page 10 of the brochure titled

The Academy of Interactive Entertainment
3D Computer Graphics and Computer Game Development
2004
Education and Training

quote:
Advanced Diploma of Multimedia
Program: Multimedia
Program Code: CUF60501
Pre Requisits: Diploma
Location: Canberra
Course Duration: 6 months
Course Times: 40 hours per week
Application: AIE
Modules Covered:
Overview and industry awareness
Learning the Game-Engine art tools
Initial Design
Art Revision
Art Polish
Portfolio work and presentation

The aim of the Advanced Diploma of Multimedia is to learn as part of a professional development team. Students will be mentored by experienced industry artists and programmers, as well as Academy teachers within an industry setting. Students will be learning, applying and adapting emerging technologies to create multimedia products that are of a commercially viable industry standard.

By being part of the game development team, students will fill an integral role in the development cycle and will be involved with all the processes required to make a demonstrable game. This will involve applying knowledge gained through; tutorials, lectures, meetings, feedback sessions and informal discussions to demonstrate appropriate industry awareness about standards, skills, proceedures and poliecies.

Students applying for this course will required to apply through the AIE, they will be required to submit a portfolio and attend an interview with the game development company and the AIE.

Did you directly ask them for a copy of their policy and have them reply with that mcdrewski? (don't answer if you don't want to of course) Why I got a bit annoyed in the previous thread was because I'd asked a direct question of a head of school at freeplay and been given an indirect answer.

I've edited my post above to add my original email.

My experience is that most people when asked for specifics (especially legals) in public will give an indirect answer because they don't want to give the wrong information.

But you didn't ask for specifics, you asked for a document and were refused. From the AIE's post quote:It's likely to happen shortly when we put up more material for next semester's intake. .

How many years does it take to get simple information that almost every other institution provides, freely up and available on the AIE's website?

IP issues were brought to their attention rather loudly at freeplay last year- there were AIE staff in the audience.

Hmm, should have checked the website a bit harder (actually I didn't expect to find this diploma online at all), but the Advanced Diploma in Multimedia course has been updated a little:

from http://aie.act.edu.au/courses/course_advanced_dip.php quote:Assessment will be carried out on the job

and from http://aie.act.edu.au/courses/join_advanced_dip.php ("HOW TO JOIN US Advanced Diploma of Multimedia") quote:This course is set within a working production company.

without any mention of any strings attached at all except
quote:Enrolment
Once the interviews/tests have been completed, all applicants will be advised in writing as to the success of their applications. Those applicants who are successful will be asked to fill in the appropriate enrolment form.

We are glad to help you at any stage - just get in touch.

I did the Diploma of Computer Game Development btw (http://aie.act.edu.au/courses/course_dip_game_dev.php) which also says nothing at all about the being documents other than the enrollment form to fill out http://aie.act.edu.au/courses/join_dip_game_dev.php

My point here is to illustrate the "close working relationship between the students and local development studios" [AIE above]

Although a course located only in Canberra does narrow it down a bit doesn't it?

lorien; who's software were you using while at the AIE? Who's computers were you using?

I've spoken with people who have done/are in the games course, they told me that they were informed about the whole IP issue when they started the course, so if that's the case, then I can't see the problem. Sure, they don't mention it on their site, but if they tell you before you start going and making your own IP with their licences, I can't see what's wrong with that.

What is the IP in question by the way?

Firstly who are you? I'm posting under my full name and place of study/work, and I know who most of the other sumeans who've posted here are. Are you AIE management/staff? I see you're in Canberra from your profile, but there is next to no information about you there, nor in your profile on http://s7.invisionfree.com/evolution and this is your first sumea post. Pardon me, but I'm a little suspicious.

I'm glad they were informed. I've never said the AIE aren't informing people now (I have no idea). I am saying that they didn't inform us adequately. They said "don't worry about the scary language, it's just for the protection of the companies involved", and "You have to sign this before you can start" when we were already in the classroom. I'm not going to say anymore on that because I'm under an NDA. Note the plural "companies" though.

And yes, the NDA in question is in the student handbook that no-one outside ever sees. With an agreement like the one I signed imho that is nothing like "being informed". Perhaps the people you asked aren't fully aware?

Probably around 90-95% of the programming side of Hail happened using our own software (don't know about the others, but I bought the academic version of msvc and registered it), on our own computers, in out own homes. Do you still not see anything wrong? What are fees paid for btw? (and if you are going to reply "teachers" then I suggest asking the AIE about programming teachers on the Hail project).

Also the computers and software in question don't belong to "local game development studios" (or do they?)

You seem to be trying to push this thread to be about a specific case. This isn't going to happen I'm afraid, because I don't care about the specific case, nor do I care about the sound engine I developed. I started from scratch long ago, partly because of ownership issues and partly for tech reasons. If I really cared about the specific piece of work you wouldn't find a big thread here about it. I've used my specific case as an example, and it's one I'm allowed to talk about to some extent because it involves me. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Incidently are there any other institutions that require students to sign an NDA?

/bump

Getting close...

List of papers and invited speakers available at http://research.it.uts.edu.au/creative/ie/05/program.html

LOL I loooove the second one about the publisher.

I think I am flying in late Thursday night [:(]

So is Anyone going to meet this evening?

This thread seems very quiet, are any of the guys who came down last
year coming along again?

I'm probably a bit busy to come along to the whole thing this year
but maybe I'll get along some time over the weekend, unless it's all sold out of course.

Cheers,

Stuart

I suspect most people are going to the IGDA meeting (and wish I wasn't already committed to something else)

IM GOING!.. friday.. if you see a guy whereing a "runchy" furry t-shert.. that'll be me. come up and say hi to me, I'm a pritty nice guy and love to exchange greatings, ideas and criteqe on a few aussie made games.

I WENT!!

...on Saturday. yeah, went down LATE friday night and decided to check it out.

was pretty cool. You may have seen me, I was wearing a white hooded top with blue jeans and white shoes.
The lessons learned from an indie start up and the talk on cinematography were the highlights, especially the latter. Didnt get to see the end of the games graphics programming session which was a shame, wanted to hear about the section on normal mapping.

Anyway, it was a pity I didnt get to post this up before Saturday, though you never know, I could have walked straight past you!

I didnt even get to go en the end :( something came up with my actual work and i couldnt go to any days. Got my work done though!

hey good to see it up! im looking at a couple of things that im interested in so no doubt i shall see you there :D

looks like there will be some great content but personally id still like to see a program before booking.

I don?t have a problem with booking the full-day pass as it is only $50 ? I have already done so. What I have a problem with, and why I am more than a little annoyed at there not being even a rough program up yet and speaker list, is booking the plane down and then back up and the hotel room I?ll be staying in.

I have no problems losing out on $50 if I decide that the event is not worth going to, but, I?d have a problem with spending all up $450-500 and then realizing that the event is not worth the trouble of attending, as it just has nothing interesting for me to do so ? which is why I have decided on a flight up and down and which hotel, but haven?t booked yet.

The longer or closer to the event you put off displaying a program for, the more likelihood that I will have to pay more in the way of a plane ticket and hotel room, due to losing out on special early-bird rates, or having to go with more expensive providers as my first choices are booked out ? due to being unsure whether to attend or not as there is no program and speaker list yet.

And I think you guys have done this on purpose, reasoning that the bulk of your attendees will be from Melbourne anyway, and will decide to attend a day or two before the event starts. So there is no reason for you to make the effort for those that attend interstate, as those that will are the hardcore type anyway, and are bound to come.

Don?t bother to deny it, I won?t believe you anyway. And I don?t think this is a conscious thing for you guys, more of a subconscious action.

I am skeptical that you guys will put on a better event than last year?s ? perhaps not even as good as last years, and a bit too art-house in nature ? it all seems a little last moment and half-arsed to me.

I?m hoping that I am wrong though.

Also, even if I am one of those hardcore types that will attend anyway, I still need to have a rough idea as to what the program is, that way I can figure out whether I am going to attend one day, two days or all three days. As this will affect which flights (or train and bus) that I am going to take down and up ? meaning day and time ? and which dates I will need to book my hotel room for.

Until the program is up, I won?t know what this will finally be.

Well what do you know, it doesn?t look too shabby based on the program that is up at the moment. I think I?ll be attending this shindig after all [8D]. Now I can get all my bookings out of the way.

Anyone who is attending and is looking to establish a project should attend the session on Sunday the 17th of July called: Getting Publisher attention. I?m not sure about Mike Fegan but Antony Reed is someone you will want to have a chat with and pinch a business card from ;).

And the Program (in nearly final form) is online at

www.free-play.org

Sorry for the delay in getting it all to you. Some times these things take longer than expected.

Most companies that I know are looking for QA people with good english spelling skills. [:P]

Seriously though - best to check the sumea lob listings, identify the studios in your area, then watch their 'positions available' pages religiously.

Worked for me! [:)]

Try and stick to just making posting once :) I removed your other post as it was identical

What No PC well that sux.:p
I dont have a Xbox or PS2.

I wish :( it looks like such a fun game but i dont have the moolah. Ill def pick it up one day, time will tell if that day will come soon or like after the next consoles have been released and i can get it cheap.... i really need a better part time job

i own it on PS2. ^^awesomely fun game. A love the Pandemic starting logo (you'll find out why when you play it)Picking up cows and flinging them is the most funist thing. And the voice actor of ZIM of Invader zim is in it.. Major selling point for a cartoon nut like myself.

The final hud was a good design choise.. i watches the extras and was happly pleased. although really i wish the swear words wern't bliped out. and the remake of the tatts theme is awesome. <.< where do i get the soundtrack?

very good game. <.< i know its american 1950's storyline but an outside american level would hit the spot. maybe a hidden level of brisbane to blow up? complete with miniture game studios.

Sumea's received an email protesting against Destroy All Humans! O_o

quote:To Whom it May Concern"

My name is (name removed) and am writing with the intention of protest against Pandemic Studios' creation of Attack all Humans. This video game is not healthy for our kids who are at their most impressionable stages of their lives.

In this world in which humanity is still going through the pangs of prejudice and discrimination, this video game does not provide hope for the unification of the human race.

Sure it's just a game, however, many kids will be affected negetively by it; and this more than anything is my concerned. I would appreciate a public censor of the video. Do not let the "bottom line" determine that fate of our kids. Thank you for reading.

Oh, won't somebody please think of the children!

Next you'll have kids [url="http://www.fln.vcu.edu/grimm/haenseleng.html"]pushing old ladies into ovens and burning them alive[/url], [url="http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/type0333.html"]timberworkers disembowelling wolves while they're sleeping and filling the cavity with stones[/url] and generally mimicing all sorts of things they hear in stories.

*chuckle*

Anyhoo - Game looks fantastic, and I'll get me a copy on the day I get an Xbox or PS2 :)

Congratulations Pandemic Aus.

quote:Originally posted by Caroo


The final hud was a good design choise.. i watches the extras and was happly pleased. although really i wish the swear words wern't bliped out.

iirc, the words that were blipped out were done so more for legal reasons (though I don't know what was said so don't bother asking)

quote:
and the remake of the tatts theme is awesome. <.< where do i get the soundtrack?

I'm not sure... Some places had it as part of a pre-order deal. It's very cool though [:D]

quote:Originally posted by Souri


Sumea's received an email protesting against Destroy All Humans! O_o

Nice to know they paid enought attention to get the title right... And what do they expect you to do?

dang i thought it was going to be on all consoles, i only have a GC. maybe i can convince my fried to by a copy for his PS2 so i can play it...

redwyre: Worked on a front-line commercial game? Woot [8D].

3DArty: Buying an XBox is a good idea- you could use
the DVD player for films (if you buy the handset), and
it's a nice bridge for a PC user. Apart from being able
to play Kill All Humans there are some good titles
emerging like Bioware's Jade Empire.

Thx I see what I can do im still not working as yet so it will have to wait till I start working, then I can go and buy one.

*glares at WiffleCube*

hey i saw the cinema advertisement just before war of the worlds (is it screening before other movies aswell? cause war of the worlds was a nice choice :P ) and that was damn funny.

hey 3DArty i think you can get a 2nd hand Xbox from Eb for about $150

Well. I?ve played it and finished it. It was a fun game. I liked it. Not to frustrating although.. Things go unanswered in the end and I found 3 pretty annoying bugs within the game.

Mind you. This is for the PS2 version:

BUG 1: Why does my spaceship stop and freeze in mid air? (This happened twice in the game. just froze and didn't move until I was blown out of the sky)

Bug 2: Fantastic freezing in mid air cars! This happened 3 times. all with the G-man cars. after throwing them they just.. Froze in mid air, and didn?t move until contacted by ether Crypto or his weapon or mind ability.

Bug 3: Jumping Bebop music! This only started to occur in the last half of the game. Mainly with the G-man music. Although considering that the music is more then likely flagged at different intervals this bug would be hard to get rid of.

Only the first bug has a... frustrating effect on the gameplay. The other two are minor. And not every bug in a game can be fixed.. I'm just giving you guys some feedback.. and as far as the game itself goes I have one only complaint.

You sold yourselves out in terms of earning extras.. The furogami and movie playing section of the archives could of been earned through game play.. but as soon as you start the game all the extras are already there.. what?s up with that?

quote:Originally posted by redwyre

*glares at WiffleCube*

Apologies for inadvertently jacking your thread with XBox advertising [;)].

quote:Originally posted by WiffleCube

quote:Originally posted by redwyre

*glares at WiffleCube*

Apologies for inadvertently jacking your thread with XBox advertising [;)].

DESTROY ALL HUMANS!!! THE NAME OF THE GAME IS DESTROY ALL HUMANS!!!

quote:Originally posted by redwyre


DESTROY ALL HUMANS!!! THE NAME OF THE GAME IS DESTROY ALL HUMANS!!!

Erps.
Must have been thinking of that Futurama episode:

Bender: Zzzz Must kill all humans..
Fry: *shiver*
Bender: Zzzzz Hey baby..
Fry: *relief*
Bender: ..wanna kill all humans?

I thought I would add my two cents to this thread. I help with Dissecta, and we did some door prizes for the last Dissecta event, gave out two retail copies of the game provided by THQ; anyway, as one of the perks, I was lucky to also get a promo copy of the game (full copy but not for retail sale). Finished it; one of the most enjoyable games I have played in a while; the 1950s feel was really captured well and it is like they made it unique to DAH!

THQ had said in a recent financial report DAH! would be one of two key games for the US summer, and the game really is superb. So all round, real cool game and the 'making of' movies and other pieces was watched with interest, a great credit to the Australian industry. As part of some of the promo THQ did for the game they also made a promo only sound track CD, with a couple of DJs (US guys) remixing 50s hits and adding new stuff: so we have scored a box of DAH! soundtrack CDs, and are giving one out to each audience member at our 23 August event in Melbourne. So that's pretty cool!

While I am here, many thanks to Souri for helping us with promoting the Dissetca events on Sumea - thanks Souri!

Hey, my pleasure [:)]

Just realised today that the magazine which came with my copy of Battlefield 2 (the retailer chucked in a free copy of PC Powerplay) has an interview with Redwyre on Destroy All Humans! "Oh, one thing that surprised me is how many people there are that are married or getting married. Programmers with girlfriends? What is the world coming to?!" [:D]

awww! we need to get that scanned and put up here if legally possible!

Oooo! I never heard that Red did an interview. I'd love to see it.

I could take some digital camera shots, but I seem to have misplaced my usb cable for it [:(] When I do find it, I will post them up.

Uh oh...

Hey, cough it up. I'm sure you've got a scan of it somewhere [:D]

Honestly, I totally forgot about it. I did it months ago. What edition is it in?

PC PowerPlay Issue #112, May 2005, where they have a special on getting in the games industry. Paul McInnes/MicroForte is in there about Game Design, George Stamatiadis/Krome about game audio, Andrew James and Ben Lee/Irrational Games on game art. Still looking for my darn usb cable so I can put up some camera shots of it.

Hey, found the usb cable for my digital camera [:D]

[url="http://www.sumea.com.au/simagesmisc/magazine.jpg"]Long awaited pic[/url]....

Speaking of destroy all humans, allthough i know we mumble grumble at hiring games in this industry in some respects i did hire the game recntly and have been meaning to tell you guys that i thought it was just brilliant. I had a blast playing and especially loved the sense of humour (massive credit to the voice actors and script writers (yay horvitz!)), all the movie references and such were neat to spot aswell. I love the fact you also on occasion took the piss out of games themselves ("for highly complex and technical reasons this must be completed within 3 minutes now lets never speak of this again"). Well essentially i thought it was great, a credit to all of you.

yeah, I'm playing it through now and I'm really enjoying it. Even worse than hiring it though, I bought it second-hand [:P]

You BASTARDS.

bastards +1

I'd finished the xbox version last month [:)]
Hell... I even enjoyed the evolution, looking at all the different builds. I remember seeing it at the point where the buildings where a lot more destructible while up in Brisbane, so unfortunately I was a little disappointed at the detail of the destruction being ramped down, but it was still an awesome play.

...even watched through "teenagers from outer space"... [8]

Looking forward to seeing where Pandemic heads, especially with the new "resources" I assume where gained in the business alliance [;)]

** preferably grads from courses other than AIE canberra, AIE melbourne, or QANTM **

Why don't you want people who did these courses?

They probably have tons already from the AIE and QANTM. And for the record I'm NOT doing it this year- which I'm sure will make Ian Gibson and David Giles rather happy [:)]

A word of advice for anyone on this panel: revise any contracts you signed. There may be things that could get you sued if you say or show them in public. Unlikely if you are saying nice things about an institution, but if you are saying nasty things be careful.

You said nasty things about these institutions in public lorien or was it the simple truth? Being a former QANTM student I would have loved to hear what you had to say - were there any records of what you talked about, or any chance you could give me a breif ? [:)]

I said some very nasty (and imho + my programmer classmates opinion VERY well deserved) things indeed about the AIE. I really pushed to the edge of what I could say without getting sued. I'll send you an email with some details Hazard, I'm not so keen on there being a record on sumea.

The gist of it was I attacked them with their own non-disclosure agreement. I think it's safe to say that if you attack an institution with their own legal documents they are not going to be too happy about it. But then I'm still none too happy either- I wasted a year and signed over a truckload of IP. IMHO we were basically tricked into signing.

I said nothing about QANTM- I haven't been there. Nor did I say anything about La Trobe. I was on the panel as an AIE grad. Jacana was on the panel too- she was saying nice things (surprise surprise). Really she shouldn't have been on it, as she was still a student there, but I'd asked the freeplay organisers to have someone from the AIE with a positive outlook on the panel too.

NB I'm not interested in a flamewar, I won't respond to any flames on this topic.

Yes, I was still a student on that panel. But on that panel I was there as an employee of White Noise Games. I was there as a student who had gone through the system and acquired a job. I am sure that another reason I was there is because they wanted to get a female on the panel. And as far as I know Souri suggested me for the panel.

As I see it, these panels are not there to bitch about what a school did wrong, that is the sort of feedback you should give to the school and staff. They are there to share your experiences so that you can help others to make better informed decisions about their education. I can be honest about my opinion with out being blunt.

My opinion on AIE still stands true. You get two things out of it.
1) You get out of it what you are willing to put into it.
2) You take away from it what you choose to take away from it.

But then that is how I see life :) I am just unsure as to how alomst a year later I am being singled out about this. *shrugs*

Sorry Jacana, I wasn't meaning to single you out- just that panel was "Game Dev Grads Tell All", and you weren't a grad.

Secondly there was a line which the management and staff crossed with us that made us not want to have much to do with them anymore.

Thirdly I/we put an absolutely insane amount of work in, and whilst we came out with a not-so-great game (Hail http://www.fileplanet.com/120496/120000/fileinfo/Hail), we didn't actually own (or even part ownership) anything we did. Perhaps that doesn't matter so much if you make a game using a pre-existing engine, but when you make the engine yourself? A senior programmer here in Melbourne described the fully scriptable audio system I made for Hail as "a sound designer's wet dream". The circumstances of the 2002 programmers was IMHO rather different to earlier and later years.

In many ways we took away less than we started with, and there wasn't any choice in the matter. For me personally I also lost my fiance of 4 years during Hail crunch time (lots of people know this), and whilst there were other circumstances that contributed to that, it IS just a little odd don't you think?

I didn't go on that panel for fun at all.

In answer to Mdobele:

while we'd prefer grads from courses other than AIE canberra, AIE melbourne, or QANTM (because either we covered them last year or have a speaker already lined up) if you've got something interesting to say, contact us anyway.

There are now heaps of courses out there that people want the skinny on and we want to get them represented. We might of course find that our search for graduates from the more obscure courses is fruitless in which case we'll probably go hard on finding people from the courses we had last year (ie AIE canberra and QANTM)

What do sumeans think? Is it worth having AIE Canberra and QANTM represented again regardless?

Well there will presumably be people coming in this year that werent there last year so there's that incentive but aslong as the content of the talks isnt a 100% repeat of last year i dont think it matters too heavily if you have students from the same unversities/tafes (etc.) again.

If you do want AIE students I think it'd be good to get one of the new AIE Melbourne grads. Their course is a bit differet outline to what AIE Canberra has and I think it'd be interesting to hear how the first batch of grads from their course feel about it.

Thanks for the input on that! The session will have a broader focus and a couple of new angles this year, so it should be sufficiently different.

So now I'm revising the call out i posted above: AIE canberra and QANTM grads please don't hold back :-)

We've got the AIE melbourne POV covered.

quote:Originally posted by Zoot

Thanks for the input on that! The session will have a broader focus and a couple of new angles this year, so it should be sufficiently different.

So now I'm revising the call out i posted above: AIE canberra and QANTM grads please don't hold back :-)

We've got the AIE melbourne POV covered.

Dunno if you got my PM, but I'm a QANTM grad...now working at Krome. Speaking at last year's Free Play was fun :)

Apparently according to DG I make "little systems" that aie/mf aren't interested in. I think they feel the need to belittle my work to try and draw attention away from some rather serious points I've been raising. I find it rather amusing, as do quite a few colleagues- particularly those who know my work [:)]

I distinctly remember being told we didn't have a chance of owning any of our work when we raised this issue with management, and from the way DG dodged my question about ownership of IP I take it to mean that AIE students still have absolutely no rights whatsoever over anything they do (please correct me if I'm wrong, but a detailed correction).

Perhaps we should have a detailed legal analysis of all known student agreements for aussie games courses on sumea? Perhaps the IGDA could help? IMHO issues at this foundation level could spell big problems for the industry as a whole.

Seeing as this is a big issue to you why do you not, instead, take it up with a lawyer, the respective people, and leave Sumea out of it.

IMO I am getting sick of this crap being dragged up over and over again. If you have a gripe take it to someone who can do something about it.

Lorien, where the hell did this come from? Digging up someone elses thread and posting completely off topic posts in regards to it is not on. If you really want to bitch about educational institutions and champion your guerilla vendetta, maybe you should make your own topic on it instead of using someone elses as a springboard to get up on your soapbox. Honestly, I'm personally sick of seeing other peoples topics trashed like this.

*edit: just to clarify (and also to keep another pointless post being added to which I realise I'm contributing to here), my point is that this thread should have never degraded into a discussion about Loriens personal problems with the AIE to begin with. I don't care who's right or wrong, or whatever. As a moderator, I care about another persons innocent thread being hijacked and made into what it is now. And then for it to be dug up again, post event, and continued on that same personal vein in a complete other tangent is just plain rude. Make your own topic, please don't change Zoots thread into your own.

JI - the topic is a little patchy and threadless, but it seems to be a logical continuation of lorian's previous comments.

I, however, would be interested in a "full and frank" discussion if it were brought up in a more appropriate forum.

Whilst I don't pretend to know what lorien is refering too i do agree with one of her points.

I think it would be a great idea to list all the educational institutes practices on I.P control and who owns what. In my experience regardless, its the University that owns it but not alot of people know this.

Whether or not its been brought up before or not - Im not sure, maybe I havent been on sumea for as long as I thought! *Makes me feel younger* [:)]

But I agree with Mcdrewski - probably best to compile all the comments into a new thread, and what Mdobele mentions about IP practises and such would also be a handy thing for students to know of before they make their decisions on which school to attend.

Jacana, I'm not stupid- far from it actually. Do you think I would have gone on that panel and did what I did last year without having seen a (good) lawyer first?!! Also your comments make no sense to me- how did I drag you into posting again? You chose to.

JJ: it may not seem on topic, but it is: I'm talking about things that I raised on the panel this thread discusses (last year), and what was said to me this year.

Mdobele: I'm a "he" (no offence taken). And for those who don't know my full name is Lorien Dunn.

HazarD: that's exactly what I meant. Thanks.

quote:Originally posted by Mdobele
In my experience regardless, its the University that owns it but not alot of people know this.

This is in general not correct, can you specify which university you are referring to?

For Universities, students own any IP they generate as a part of their coursework or research. IP produced by staff/researchers as a part of their employment is usually owned by university and sometimes jointly with staff.

Please see http://www.gsu.uts.edu.au/policies/intellectualprop.html for the detailed policy of University of Technology, Sydney.

quote:
Students, not being employees of the University, own the Intellectual Property that they generate. In particular, Students own the copyright in their theses.

...

Where a Student's supervisor makes a contribution to Intellectual Property the Intellectual Property will be owned jointly by the Student (who is not an employee), and the University (as the supervisor's employer).

Where a Student participates in a research team whose members include Staff Members, the Intellectual Property arising from or created or developed by the research team will be owned jointly by the Student (who is not an employee), and the University (as the University Staff Members' employer).

When I was at QUT, I always believed that they owned the rights to any coursework. However, that's not the case, apparently...

"QUT has no automatic right to intellectual property created by students during the course of their study at QUT."

http://www.qut.edu.au/admin/mopp/D/D_08_01.html

...which I did not know.

Ahhh well there you go yusuf. I always heard about it from a teachers standpoint as it has happened to a teacher friend of mine and automatically assumed it was the same for students.

Looks like we definitely need a nice article on sumea explaining this..... even if I am the only one it educates [;)]

I nominate yusuf to write it. [8D]

I think Yusuf would be a good person to write it too, but I'm sure he is pretty crazy with the new semester starting and all.

At La Trobe I understand it is joint ownership. I gather that this is actually law now- unless another arrangement is agreed to by the student.

Actually La Trobe is rather better than I thought (from http://www.latrobe.edu.au/rgso/information/cont_ip_policy_oct03.pdf) :

The University will not assert rights in a students invention unless:
(a) a member of staff of the University (such as the students academic
supervisor) is a co-inventor; or
(b) a third party has been granted rights to exploit or otherwise use the
invention; or
(c) the University and the student have agreed in writing.

I didnt realise that each institution has their own IP law. Is there a new thread starting on this? Has me very interested, especially since I am involved in passing on this sort of info to prospective students. Im surprised that there are _any_ institutions that claim IP rights to student created works, unless its derivative works? Surprising .. really. Almost sounds like there should be a federal IP law to cover this sort of thing, doesnt make alot of sense to have differing contractual agreements for students in digital media courses?

This may be adding to the intellectual property specific part of this thread, but here's RMIT's policy

http://mams.rmit.edu.au/l11qeacwcb081.pdf

The main paragraph regarding student work is

Students ? R&D Intellectual Property

Subject to any employment relationship between the University and a student or any provision in this policy, any R&D intellectual property created solely by a student is owned by that student.

quote:Originally posted by Grover

I didnt realise that each institution has their own IP law. Is there a new thread starting on this? Has me very interested, especially since I am involved in passing on this sort of info to prospective students. Im surprised that there are _any_ institutions that claim IP rights to student created works, unless its derivative works? Surprising .. really. Almost sounds like there should be a federal IP law to cover this sort of thing, doesnt make alot of sense to have differing contractual agreements for students in digital media courses?

Well, IANAL, but my understanding is that there is a considerable variation amongst the universities regarding intellectual property policies. I know that the policies have changed over time, generally in the direction of students owning their own work. The manner, and possibly extent, to which the policies mesh with broader intellectual property and copyright law is likely a deep topic.

The general rule with copyright in Australia is "you make it, you own it". Of course any other agreements supercede this.

You can see the variation between some institutions here http://sumea.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3146 and I am extending the list.

IMHO the real issues come when this info is kept secret or is only revealed after paying fees.

Can you log in and post this news on Sumea please?

So basically you are going to sit around a bar playing Nintendo DS'... real smooth.. :D if I was over 18 I would come but no point seeing as I wouldn't be able to drink!

i'd just go for the socialising and the drinks, except that now that i have a DS i'm keen to try out some multiplayer!

Crap! I missed this one, when will be the next?! :D

dunno, i don't organize them but as soon as i find out i'll post it up

Nah..

"Films and computer games are now classified G, PG, M or MA 15+. Films can also be classified R 18+ or X 18+. R 18+ and X 18+ are not classifications for computer games."

Heh, upon reading those details I see that all they've done is change the colour scheme.

Sorry If I got anybody's hopes up [:)]

Troy Sterling ? My last name is 'Nickel' - but any currency is good enough for me [:D]

Yeah i was wondering why it said 'Sterling'. I'll make sure they get it right next time so you're not short changed, hehehe... sigh[:(]

Wow, this sounds like an awesome event. You'd be silly to miss it.

Just to remind everyone it will make the IGDA's job just a little bit easier if you could please RSVP if you are coming. There are some great speakers giving talks so you would be CRAZY to miss it.

I'll see you all there.

Just drop a line to
j.turner (AT) qut.edu.au

quote:
WHO: Anyone active or actively pursuing a career in the game development industry. Those not in the industry and not yet fully dedicated to breaking in, please stay tuned for future events that reach out to the wider community.

So am I correct in assuming that students like myself who hope to one day break into the industry but aren?t yet ready to dedicate themselves to job hunting should not go this and wait for a more appropriate event?

no come along. if you want to get into games and want o improve your knowledge and skills - come along!

i think that line is a relic from the standard IGDA invite form. to me it reads: "if you're not that interested in games or not sure that's what you want ot be doing this is not for you". it would be expected that anyone who attends has some knowledge and interest of game dev - or they probably wont understand or be interested in the presentations.

Because nothings been changed here about this yet ill take it upon myself to clear it up - The session window thats available for myself and some of the crew tomorrow at QANTM will be a Q&A session for anyone to come along and ask anythign they like about what Kalescent Studios is up to or how we got established etc etc.

If you ever had any questions about how we operate, how we are staying alive, what you need to do to get work from us etc - then come along and ask away.

Thanks to everyone who came along, and thanks to the other 'masters' for there presentations. [:D]

hey HazarD, thanx for the QA session, I didnt know much about outsourcing and I quite like it I learnt so much more, you guys did a great job and the models look excellent

overall a sucessful evening i thihnk. thanks to everyone that attended and all the presenters aswell. i dont know how many students attended from the different UNIs, but i was dissapointed there weren't more there from qantm. i saw a lot of pass students and a few current ones, but students would have benefited so much from attending that it's a shame more didnt - particually those woring on final projects this year.

still, a great night, and a good indication of interest and potential for future events.

Some lecture slides can be downloaded at:
http://igda.org/brisbane/master_classes.html

quote:Originally posted by LiveWire

but i was dissapointed there weren't more there from qantm. i saw a lot of pass students and a few current ones, but students would have benefited so much from attending that it's a shame more didnt - particually those woring on final projects this year.

Maybe Brisbane employers should ask "Did you go to the IGDA Master Class? Oh, why not?" during interviews [;)]

lol, scare them into comming

Was definitely a good evening. Only saw half of John P's workshop as I was with a programmer who wanted to see the relevant session (which wasn't incredibly programming orientated, but still informative), but liked how it gave way to expansive thinking. Look forward to more of his stuff. Definitely got alot out of the business session. Didn't realise how very viable starting up a new game dev is right now in Queensland. Production was interesting, but made my way to art half way through, which wasn't bad. Learnt new bad stuff about the PS2 and saw a preview of Ty 3. Didn't get to Audio and Outsourcing as the art sesh went overtime, but wish I'd at least caught some of it.

So yeah, looking forward to more in the near future @:-)

quote:Originally posted by HazarD

Thanks to everyone who came along, and thanks to the other 'masters' for there presentations. [:D]

Hey I'd just like to thank you and mick gordon for your lecture... I found it very helpful and was a great insight!

EDIT: oh and every other one I went to was great aswell.

Hey about time, good to see the Student Chapter for Brisbane IGDA finally get some extra publicity, this might mean there will be more things happening for the student chapter, there are a few things this month and coming month, thanx Souri

Cool thanks for the link. Thanks Antz for telling me about this, one of my friends who is also interested in a career in the Games Industry is also attending. See you there :P

hey Stevo,

I would appreciate some comments on QANTM as am comin' to brisbane this september for a diploma in games programming. From what I've gathered thru all the QANTM vs AIE topics till date is mixed with confusing views , yet , I found QANTM a lot beneficial for middle-class students. Did ya mean ya are workin' as a tester for Krome Studios ???

Plz, any help would be great.....

Thanx ,

=[ne0]=

Hey man,

Honestly I cant tell you much about the programming side of qantm as I actually stuided the animation major.. However my flatmate now works for THQ and he studied games programming at QANTM so he's done really well for himself.

I also know that there are mixed views on the quality of the teaching at qantm, what I can tell you is that in general its not too bad. The majority of the tutors/lecturers there are really good and well knowledged and the qualification you get at the end is a degree equivelant to that of a university.

Sorry if this doesn't help you mate but thats the best I can give you.

And yep, i'm working as a tester for Krome :)

Thanx for that , dude !!Am glad to know ; your friend works for THQ. Now am gettin' it kinda cleared outta the confusion circle. I did hear that the teachin' ain't all that bad and that ya will only get what ya put , so your friend has worked really hard to get into THQ.

Thanx for everythin' and may I hv ur email , ya know , just in case I've more questions on QANTM :)

Laters ,

=[ne0]=

Stevo, I did the same QANTM degree as you, started at Krome in the QA department, and now I rule the place WITH AN IRON FIST BWAHAHAHAHA.

(goes down to the QA room to buy a soda)

Serious answer tho: I had 8 years of working in the games industry behind me, and not much else. Industry experience is worth 10 times as much as qualifications in my book. Qualifications are good for getting a foot in the door for a lot of people, but I know what worked best for me.

Formal qualifications? I have none myself, just actual game experience.

Working in QA is a great place to find out what actually goes into making games and to find out how things are done at certain companies. Lots of the guys working on the games at Krome have gone through QA first.

I am Steve's roommate. I work at THQ but as a game designer, not a programmer (although someone else from Qantm got hired as a programmer at THQ).

The course is designed so that you get out of it what you put in. The teachers give you what you need to know so that you can go and do additional research on your own. And of course they'll help you if you have questions. I think this is true with any uni course, if you just do the bare uni requirements you probably won't do very well. Even if you do OK, think about the guy sitting next to you that has put in 40 more hours of work each week. Who is going to have the better skills in the end? And who's more likely to get hired?

I went for a few interviews and they certainly seemed much more interested in my skills than my uni marks.

Stevo wrote:
quote:I am talking about employment within a company, not contract-based work.

What?s the difference to you? Both of them give you experience in the industry.

My first job in the games industry had me contracted to work from home for a Hong Kong company. I had no industry qualifications for the Event Coordinator job. Soon after I had started working for them they wanted to bring me out to Hong Kong to work permanently from their base of operations, but this wasn?t to be, because just as the final details were being worked out, the SARS virus broke out and killed off that notion. The next year I spent expanding my skills and knowledge into such skills as Customer service, Quality Assurance, Community Management and Game Design, before the company finally went under.

This rollercoaster ride taught me the hard and fast about the inner workings of games in a very short time period. I now have the skills and experience to do four jobs in the industry that would have taken three-four years of taking classes to acquire the equivalent degree. The experience shows I can do the job and as stated before, is worth a lot more then a degree for that simple reason.

I will end it on this note, having a degree will make it easier to get into the industry then not having one, but its not impossible to get into the industry without one.

I've been thinking about goin to uni or tafe to get a qualification to help my chances on getting into the games industry. I recently got an interview with Krome Studios for a QA position but was unsuccessful QA Manager was saying that alot of the applicants were from uni or Qantm. I would love to go to qantm but my finances are not very good atm plus i just moved up from melbounre. but im just deciding what to do atm about studying. I did get chosen to participate for fuzzy eyes voluntary game testing so the experience i gain from that would be invaluable when it comes to future prospects in the game industry.

I personally took the long way into the industry, doing a traditional IT course, then traditional "business" IT for five years or so. I then found some people at Auran that gave me that foot-in-the-door (also working in QA) and I couldn't be happier.

However, what I hear is that games is all about what you can show what you can do. Demos, Showreels, love of games - whatever you want to do, you should just take the time and Do, or Do not - there is no try!

QA at Auran...

You're not Scott or Mik are ya?

I don't think so - let me check the nametag on my undies.

Nope. Sorry.

Say hello to Paul and Mathew over at AURAN for me.

BSc Comp Sci Hons + self taught skills ;)

I finaly got my first Job as an Artist, after finishing at the AIE (Canberra) and then spending a year sending out resume's to every developer I could. I found that nobody was interested in my diploma, it came down to my demo reel.
And of course knowing people from the company your interested in.

That seems to be the trend, especially with artists. The qualifications appear to mean SQUAT within the industry. Sure it looks good on a resume but they want to see how good you personally are and what you have produced or can produce. Either you've got the skills or you don't.

So Nick where'd you end up man? Your a 3D Artist?

quote:Originally posted by Marty

Hi Stevo,

Self taught before gaining my industry gig. Spent several years learning from home, hanging out on forums, asking questions, learning tools and techniques etc.

Just a lot of learning, passion and self dedication :)

Marty

Good stuff Marty, great to hear. Perseverance and dedication payed off for you and you must have worked hard. If you don't mind me asking, how are you involved in the industry? What do you do?

Stevo

I second the comment of

>Just a lot of learning, passion and self dedication :)

from studying architecture at university, I went into work for a game company as an environment and character modeler, and then slowly over the years into a tool programmer and now game programmer.

sure, have had assistance from various people and been pointed at a lot of good books to read, but the dedication has to be there.

What do you do with all the hours in your day? rather than sit around feeling sorry for yourself and not being able to find a job you like, use every moment to improver your skills to get the job you want. don't watch TV, don't play (so many) computer games, don't waste time online. Have a crap job to afford yourself rent and food money and spend the rest working for yourself.

Sure, get some distance occasionally to re-examine direction and goals, (I recommend one day a week being computer free) but otherwise if you want something, then work for it.

Bachelor of Computer Science at the University of Melbourne... went travelling for a year... went to AIE Melbourne for 6 months... got a job at That Game in Melbourne... working for Criterion Games in the UK.

Been in the industry about a year now.

Bottom line is, I wouldn't say there is any set formular on how to get in the industry. Just take pride in what you do and you won't have any problems.

Cheers, Tom.

It would probably help if you were more specific about what the research area is (not asking for topic, just general area).
Sumea is also probably not the right place to ask (not many academics in the forums).

thank you for reply!
My research area is regarding exchangable experience between games and real life. It is industry relative and may draw great deal of profit (ideally ^_^)

I think there should be many people with at least a honors degree. this project is already long-time conceived and ready to be tested. the problem is, I came from China with comparatively bad academic english writting skill. So, my intention is just find someone that would like to cooperate to discovered and try something new in their beloved area.

thank you very much!

No "unions" for game developers in Australia per se, but you might think about the [url="http://www.dlf.org.au/"]DLF[/url], [url="http://www.apesma.asn.au/"]APESMA[/url], [url="http://www.gdaa.com.au/"]GDAA[/url], [url="http://www.igda.org/"]IGDA[/url], or the [url="http://www.niehs.nih.gov/kids/lyrics/mcdonald.htm"]EIEIO[/url]

so this MacDonald character, has he been in the industry long?

[url]http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20050322/hyman_01.shtml[/url]
Unionise now... An article that appeared on Gamasutra a few weeks back.. brings together the views of for and against unions..

quote:...observers see close parallels between the gripes of today's game developers and those of workers in the movie industry in the 1930s and '40s, particularly in the animation segment. The difference is that Hollywood unionized, and the game industry is still only talking about it.

[img]http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20050322/Unions_art.jpg[/img]

cheers..

While there's no general game developers union in Australia there are a number of unions that can represent your industrial interests.

APESMA has a special interest group called ITPA (Information Technology Professionals Association that is specifically designed to look at the interests of people working in areas like Game Development. Visit www.apesma.asn.au or contact 03 9695 8800 for more information.

quote:Originally posted by Boroma

Does anybody know if there is some kind of general game developer workers union in Australia? Do any other countries have one??

Thoughts anyone??

Perhaps the following might help.

1) state governments in different states often have some investment options - try your state government website.

2) federal government arts grants can sometimes help for certain types of interactive media.

3) pick some game companies and read their websites on how they started up. look for words like 'grant', 'partner', 'publisher', and the like.

A lot of people spend their entire working life trying to get funding and deals for their games. It's not an easy task :)

It's extremely difficult because games are generally considered very high risk for investors, and government grants (usually R & D grants) require you supply 50% capital before they'll give anything.

Maybe you should look into advertising in-game for your research, (selling advertisments within the game) it can work providing you can convince potential clients that your product will reach the intended market.

thanks mcdrewski. i'll look into those more soon.

red5, i realised that you're right. the advertising idea is a really good way to get money, thanks so much for that for that. do you know if it's been done before?

or does anyone else know if this has been done before? advertising in game is a new idea to us and since it is a made-up document, i think we'll have enough to have to get away with saying "advertising will get us all the money we will need". i just need to back it up with some proof.

just incase, can poeple come up with other ways to help my poor, fake, games company?

cheers
-nino

It's quite topical right now, since advertising of real-life products has recently started top be implemented in Anarchy Online (see [url="http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/04/11/0216227&tid=10"]this slashdot article[/url] as a starting point). It's been implemented in games such as Grand Turismo, the EA sports games etc. for years.

However, unless you're making a blockbuster game, I'd be quite surprised if advertising will get "all the money you'll need".

For reference, and a reality-check, I refer you to that bastion of journalistic factual content, penny arcade.

quote:
[url="http://www.penny-arcade.com/news.php3?date=2005-04-04"]Geoff Zatkin - Penny Arcade Mon, April 04 2005[/url]
One of my buddies was speaking to a high school class a few weeks ago about the game industry. After a few moments of disconnect, she asked the class what they thought the development cost of the last GTA game was. Most students thought it was around [US]$500,000. She informed them that they were short about two zeros.

Start at bigkid.com.au, or gamenews.com.au for links to many, many games blogs and sites and you can find all sorts of useful information like this. Then you should be able to do some sums, some math etc. Plus you'll get a fantastic mark for doing such comprehensive research :)

You could try contacting the guys at [url]http://u-235studios.com/[/url] as they have received some funding from the state government (Vic) and have managed to produce a fantastic demo with which they are attempting to garner a full publishing deal from the big publishing houses.

thank you both. you've been very helpful.
this is awsome resource.
cheers

www.qldgamedev.com

Check out the "Industry Development" link for more information.

Scott.

How about the Nescafe Big Break? It's not exactly a stable platform to design a business plan around, but at least you'd be pitching a more original idea that "I wanna get my band started up, and we spent all our money on weed".
And God knows that game designers are a walking advertisement for the benefits of excess coffee consumption.

If you get a webpage happening, be sure to let me know so I can add it to the Sumea Linkstation and Education pages...

Remind me again why we have software patents?

"Plaintiff has identified over 1000 accused games, which Plaintiff alleges infringe their '690 patent." [xx(]

Wasn't there some games company trying to patent a rendering method or something like that a while back ago? It caused quite a bit of a stir then too.

The last one that was this stupid to my memory was the "worlds dot com" incident, where a company claimed it had patents that were breached by every first and third person 3d multiplayer game.

The problem this time is that although the patent was issued in July 1984, prior art must date before July 23 1983... We're talking the early Foley & Van Damme era of computer graphics here.

However in this case it's quite easy to point out that this patent is not a method, but a result of any number of mathimatical methods. So it's pretty hard to call it an "invention". The case will probably not hold up very long in a court, but pior art would likley prevent a court case entirely.

BattleZone, 1980? I seem to recall the version I had on my Apple II displayed a spinning 3d model of the various enemies on the "training" screen.

...just checked in MAME - the arcade version of BZ doesn't seem to have 'em, and the various ports are as late as 1985.

It does seem a fairly obvious application of Euler's work though, and I have a feeling that was a bit before 1980.

i read about this in atomic. money grabbing law suit basically. so what happens if they win? do they then own the rights to display any type of 3D images? there goes the industry. but the chances of them winning seems very close to nil.

about the date: by proving the technology was in use before the patent was registered effectivly makes the patent, and their case, void.

basically, you know that thing in every 3D game ever where you get to see your vehicle, character, weapon etc standing static on screen, and you rotate around it, zoom in, zoom out etc?

That's what their patent does. It's the sort of obvious mathematical process I wrote in applesoft basic in high school. I never realised that by applying perspective drawing (High School Technical Drawing/Graphics) and matrix multiplication (High School advanced Maths) I would be breaching a patent.

[insert rant about dirty money grabbing scumbags]

Here is a humerous (but true) story: a melbourne guy succeeded in getting a patent on the wheel a while back http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/auspac/07/02/australia.wheel/

He called it a "circular transportation facilitation device". At least it was a crap innovation patent, not a real one, and he was doing it to show how stuffed the patent system is.

The really bad news is thanks to Little Johnny and his free trade agreement all the insane American software patents are legal here now. Including Microsoft's infamous Double Click and Lasso Select patents :(

Not to go too far OT, but US Patent 6,368,227 is for a way of swinging on a swing

quote:
In an interview with New Scientist Magazine, Peter Olson said, "I had told him that if he [Olson Junior] invented something he could file a patent." Any patent has to pass the "prior art" test, in which the applicant must prove that his invention is new and has not been done before. Thus, the US Patent Office initially rejected the application for prior art, citing two earlier patents on swings, but Peter Olson appealed, noting that neither was a method for swinging sideways, and the patent was then issued.