Industry and Education

the food court in south melbourne became a popular venue, then progessing onto pubs and such if people wanted to.

Ahh moon, your grammar tells a few things [:)]

Hells Kitchen is off Flinders Lane, quite close to ACMI. Good beer, good food, awsome name [:)]

The Supper Inn is a fantastic place to eat, medium priced, really yummy, in chinatown.

Southbank is a pretty touristy area.

i'll be down thursday arvo so i'm in. dunno where to go though - i don't remember the names of any places from last year.

Yeah- Hells Kitchen - a group of us - Atari and AIE guyz and gals - went here last year. It was down a little lane and had a sushi(?) place next door I think. From what I remember drinks were slightly pricey but average for Melbourne. Cheaper than the hotel bar next to AGDC anyway.
It's a bit small for a big meetup but ok if there's less than 10....

quote:Originally posted by lorien

Ahh moon, your grammar tells a few things [:)]

that im talking casually over the internet?

Mutant - I think you are thinking of the Robot Bar that was during FreePlay?

quote:Originally posted by mutant_fork

Yeah- Hells Kitchen - a group of us - Atari and AIE guyz

Hi Neil [:)] Unusual to catch an AIE staff member and classmate in the forums... Senior Tutor at Canberra isn't it these days?

Never said I was going btw- just suggesting a venue [:D]

Edit: if there are interstate (and well known) sumeans who would like to meet without getting mugged [:)] send me a PM.

quote:Originally posted by MoonUnitquote:Originally posted by lorien

Ahh moon, your grammar tells a few things
that im talking casually over the internet?
Indeed, let us not be overly punctillious; there are [url="http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/11/03"]greater grammatical offenders[/url] to criticise.

I'll be in town for AGDC this year, so if anybody organises something, count me in.

Generally, we have aimed to hold the FreePlay and AGDC meet-ups at South Bank. It is an easy walk in the city, even people from other cities can find it, and there is plenty of room. Adding to that - South Bank isn't all that far from Fed Square.

The other handy thing about South Bank is that there are all types of foods there to suit anyone.

If you plan a meet-up, best to have one local person give a mobile number that people can contact if they are lost, late, drunk ;) After South Bank it's a simple walk up to Crown for drinks and games!

Whoops- you're right Jacana- it was the Robot Bar. South Bank does seem the go.

Howz it going Lorien? I didn't think after our chat at Freeplay 2004 our next meeting would involve mugging?![?] Unless that is some ancient Melbourne tradition to do with a Mugachino?

Do you really have to be well known? I would encourage everyone who's interested in a chat and couple of drinks to come along- whether you're an active sumean or lurker.

I wish I could make it to at least one of these [:(]

quote:Originally posted by mutant_fork

Howz it going Lorien? I didn't think after our chat at Freeplay 2004 our next meeting would involve mugging?![?] Unless that is some ancient Melbourne tradition to do with a Mugachino?

No, though you guys did seem to bus in quite a few hecklers to the game dev grads tell all panel [:)]

The words:
Hells Kitchen
group of us
down a little lane
sushi bar

made me check your profile [:)]

Sumea meeet up again.. You guys from melbourne arent gonna puke down the steps again?? That was disgusting.

I only turned up to the last one by accident, and oddly enough will be in the vacinity again.. So I will try to pop my head in with a few of the guys from up here in Brisvegas.

Seeya in a couple of weeks :).

Make sure everyone bings along their DS's to the conference too for some Mario Karting action!

quote:Originally posted by LiveWire

Make sure everyone bings along their DS's to the conference too for some Mario Karting action!

This sounds like a very good idea.

quote:Originally posted by LiveWire

Make sure everyone bings along their DS's to the conference too for some Mario Karting action!
Totally.

Don't forget: you only need one copy of the game between eight players, so even if you dont have the game bring along your DS's anyway - you'll just have to play in noob mode [:P]

Yes it is okay if you have no copy, you will just be forced to play as a shy guy.

I intend to play some mario kart on my flight down since I will be on a flight with a friend who has a DS and mario kart, maybe some randoms on the flight with DSs will join in too.

And if you have no DS don't feel left out, you can watch.

Well if we have it at southbank where are we meeting up? Food court?

Otherwise I would prefer meeting closer to Federation Square. The Transport Hotel looks pretty cool (http://www.transporthotel.com.au/) and they have sunshine chilli beer! A pint of Calton Draught cost $7 which does mean i have to pace myself which is probably a good thing.

What do ya reckon?

we need someone who lives and/or knows Melbourne to act as a contact and supply their phone number. I'd do it, but i am neither from Melbourne nor do i know the area.

hey dudes!
i'll be down in melbournitown from tonight.
send us an sms, i might be able to check my mail in time too.
i prob won't be able to wrestle my girlfiend's DS offa her so i'll bring my SP and just pretend i have wifi.
:(
should be rad!

T: +61 0410614277
E: dunk@spakfiller.com
www.spakfiller.com

For anyone that's interested, this is also on at the Australian Centre for the Moving Image from Nov 25 to Jan 29, so if you have a bit of time around AGDC it might be worth checking it out. I get in tomorrow arvo, so i'l probably go along before the AGDC opening address.

[url="http://www.acmi.net.au/kubrick_detail.htm"]
Stanley Kubrick: Inside the Mind of a Visionary Filmmaker[/url]
Full $12 Concession $8

Okay- so Let's meetup at the Transport Hotel Public bar at 8:30pm on Thursday night (1st dec). It's in federation square and if someone knows a better joint, then rock up and you can show us the way.

If you don't know where it is check out the website -http://www.transporthotel.com.au/- go to 'public bar' and then 'location'. If you see a big bloke (me) and twinkletoes with red hair (not me) then say hey.

As of today I have Advance Wars Dual Strike as well!

also, what time does the opening finish (i can get the AGDC website to load) - there is the cocktail party afterwards isnt there? Is that over by 8:30?

Morning, just saw this post. I can't get onto the website for the AGDC either, but I'm guessing it starts tomorrow till sunday.

On that note... does that mean that this meet up is tonight [:0]

If so can someone reply to this if you all arn't sitting on a bus driving down here.

Yep, it'd be tonight...

Heya cats and kittens. This chilli beer has me intrigued. I'll be along with my DS and severely lacking Mario Carting skills this evening.

quote:Originally posted by LiveWire

For anyone that's interested, this is also on at the Australian Centre for the Moving Image from Nov 25 to Jan 29, so if you have a bit of time around AGDC it might be worth checking it out. I get in tomorrow arvo, so i'l probably go along before the AGDC opening address.

[url="http://www.acmi.net.au/kubrick_detail.htm"]
Stanley Kubrick: Inside the Mind of a Visionary Filmmaker[/url]
Full $12 Concession $8

Don't forget to check out the "Point and Tilt" exhibition while you are there as well!
http://www.acmi.net.au/games_point_tilt.jsp

Hey, so how did this meet up go?

Good- although I couldn't find anyone with a DS! We turned a bit late but met up with guys from Tantalus and Blue Tongue as well as quite a few students.

Wish I could have gone, the whole "Time off work" thing .. oh wait a minute ... I'm casual and on a contract ...
I should have realised sooner :<

digiBlast sounds interesting, but I think the gp32x is a more interesting as a homebrew handheld. More supported, Linux based as well, and it's already got some cool emulators running and other cool stuff ported on it (anyone remember the game [url="http://www.gp32x.com/board/index.php?showtopic=22499"]Flash back[/url]?).

[url="http://www.gp32x.com/gp2x.php"]Check out the specs[/url]...

I would say the PSP would be the perfect homebrew handheld, but Sony just keeps making the thing more closed. [xx(]

Sorry peoples, but I can't help noticing how quiet it is here... Are you guys/girls under an NDA?

Edit: how about the staff?

I've seen QANTM flamed by their graduates on sumea before, though it was long ago, and I understand they are under new management.

Hm..really no one willing to share some insight?
This is not ment become a "I want to know that Qantm is not good" thread, I'm just curious how many lectures they give. I can't really
get that info from the material they provide at their site, e.g. the course outline says "Intro to Programming" or "Principles of Design"..all of this sound good to me, but it makes a huge difference how many hours of lecture you get.
If there's really an NDA, which I doubt, I'd appreciate if somebody could contact me via mail or msn.
I tried to get those infos directly over Qantm,but all I got back was the registration form(maybe they are just busy ;)

I did part of an online course through QANTM which I have decided not to complete, but I've never been to a lecture there. I know there are some visitors on the boards here who are officially "in the industry" now having gone to QANTM, and they still have very close ties with the people there. From all reports the course is like most study, you get out what you put in. There's the good and the bad, but in the end if you put in the work you can shine.

Pithy sentiment perhaps, but true.

sorry, i've been meaning to reply to this but i just hav't got around to it.

First of all, what course are you looking at doing? Altogether There are people here that have done the programing/animation dip, and the aniamtion/programming/mulitmedia degree.
I myself did both the animaton dip and degree, so i'll comment a bit on them and the institute in general.

Firstly, you only get out what you put in. Pleanty of people went through and came out with nothing, thinking they could do the coursework, pass the courses, cruise through and come out with a job. NOT THE CASE. the few people that got jobs at the ends of their courses (including me) put every spare moment we had into further study and practice. QANTM says they cater for everyone, which really means they only teach the basics, because anything mroe advanced would only be understood for a minority of the class. The advanced stuff is what you need to learn though if you want a job, and that you'll have to learn on your own. Though i found many of the teachers very willing to give advice on it if you track them down outside of class or during a spare moment in class.

As for the courses, the i've heared that the diploma has changed a lot since i did it (2003). I found it to be very hands on, and i learnt far more practical skills in the dip than i did in the degree, and many coders i spoke to seem to agree. However i think it's changed now to be more like the first year of the degree, which i found stupid, as it seems that rather than making the degree better, they simply made the diploma worse. i could be wrong on this thorugh, you'll wannt to get more oficial information than that.

As for the degree, having previously completed the dip i was given credit for several degree courses, so i was often in both first year and second year classes. I was shocked though when i first started a second year course. 'advanced animation' began with "here's how to animate a biped" and i found that many second year students knew little more 3d than i did when starting my dip. It turns out the degree is mostly theory, and has a lot of crouses related to film and business (such as scripting and story boarding, IP and contral law, and other such stuff) - all very important (except of a few exceptions which were stupidly irrelevant - communication design: WTF?? that course was just random "we want you to do a talk on the conceptual meaning of the word 'structure'". sounds more intelegent than it actually was, and what it was was just a waste of time).
anyway, my point is the degree teaches a lot of different things, and first year's only get intro to 3d, (i.e. the stuff we learnt in the first month or so of the dip) and dont get into anything more advanced until the second year. only thoses that realy applied themselves and dedicated loads of time outside of class produced any quality work though.

the final projects are the highlight of the course though. where you get to apply everyhting you've learnt thoughout the course into a final game or film project. provided you've actually dedicated yourself, you could created something that will find you work (mine did, as did a few other peoples in other groups). if you havnt, well, too bad. also, you should listen to the advice of past students with reguards to final projects. our project was a sucess because we had done one previously in our diploma and bumed it up, so we knew what we were getting ourselves into with the degree. we've been trying to pass what we learned from both on to current students, but from what i've seen and heard so far they arnt listneing (or they are, but not seriously enough). oh well, they'll see what i was talking about come industry night...

anyway, overall QANTM is a good place to learn this trade, the teach you all the basics, but you only get something out if you put every waking moment into it. The teachers are great and are willing to help you with any questions or more advanced stuff. completing either the dip or degree will probably leave you with equal 3d skills (which is sad considering the degree is two years verses the diploma's one), but the degree teaches you more associated skills. in that case you're probably best off doing the degree for the extra subjects, and also since you also get two years to hone your skills. there is no reason why you cant match end of year diploma work after only one year in the degree, though if you put in full effort you should achieve much more than that.

oh, assessments and hours: the course is full time, about 3 to 4 days a week of classes (so it's possible to hold down a part time job aswell, though i wish i didnt have to, i would have rather spent the time on my 3d - but i had to pay the fees somehow)
assessments are usually intrusive on what you would rather be doing - 3d. and jsut when you get that other damn weekly tute assessment out of the way another comes along. which is probably why most people dont advance much in 3d outside of class. it's irritating (particually during final projects when you're trying to give it all you've got but you're being forced to spend hours on some random subject's stupidly long assessment). There were only a few exames too, which was cool, and many assessmnets are practicle, as opposed to written (though there a a lot of those aswell).

that's all i can think of for the moment. i'm sure someone else here will have other things to say which both agree and differe greatly from my oppinions, so maybe the'll say something aswell.

Thanks alot for your helpful reply,
afterall Qantm sounds fine to me.
I've been working in Gamedev here for about 2 years now, my primary reason to go to Qantm is to hone my skills,learn some new things and get a Degree.
I've only been doing prop modeling and texturing,so I want some insight into character modeling and animation.
I've gone three months to SAE here..which I'm glad to give up now,because it did not deliver what it promised. The course ( Diploma leading to BA Degree in Film and Animation) promised alot of topics to be covered,but every single topic would have been done within like two days ( And I'm talking about major topics..like texturing or compositing. That's why I asked how much lectures there are..because I want it to feel like studying something ;)
I know Qantm is now run by SAE,but it sound a whole lot different.
Sounds like there will be a good chance to meet some dedicated students at Qantm, which I appreciate as much as a good education.
Btw, what kind of 3d and compositing software is taught primarely?
How's the facility itself? How's the interaction between the animation and code students? How's the ratio between students with former experience in 3d and those with none?
I think I allready decided to apply, those questions are just out of curiosity. (unless somebody has something really bad and shocking to say about Qantm ;)

Thanks alot again :)

I have heard not good reports from ex-students, BUT thats before they were under new management, with all courses, no matter where u study, you get what you put in.
If the course goes for say 25hr a week(im guessing the hrs) and you only do the 25hr, I would say that it would be hard to get a job after, BUT if you live and breath 3d, and pump out work, it should be a lot easyer for you. Again you get what you put in.

i was at qantm before, during and after the change in management, but since the cahnge came right at the end of my course i experienced very little different, though improvements could be seen beginningto come in. So i guess what i'm saying is my coments reflect the old management (which was good, all in all), and i think the new management will make it better still.

you do four courses each trimester, a trimester being about 12 weeks. each week you usually have one lecture and one tutorial per subject.

most students starting at qantm have no prior experience, or those that do come from other fields (graphic design for instance)

during the degree you will do Major specific courses with others doing that Major (animation, programing, multimedia), but generic courses re a mix of students from all thre Majors, so you get to interact with students from other Majors easily. Then during final projects you have specific Project Classes where your team gets together and works solely on the project.

the software most taught is 3dsmax - and that's pretty much it. 2D uses flash, and i cant answer for programing and multimedia. there used to be teachers there that wanted to teach maya more, but i don't think they work there anymore. You can still use maya, but you wont be able to get as good help from teachers since it's not their specialty.
i think there are short subjects on compositing, but i had credit for this during the degree. in the dip we used combustion, though i heared that for the degree they used Adobe Premier (which people were not happy with, so i wouldnt be surprised if they change that, but it's only one subject so you dont get very indepth with it).
and they dont teach photoshop - which is unbelieveably stupid. occasionally a teacher will get a few demos of it in a couple of leassons, but it SHOULD be a course of its own. i'm completely self taught in photoshop - i had to learn it all from friends and the web since qantm seemed to think texturing wasnt an importantpart of 3d. (granted, it's primarity and animation course, but if you're going to get into games - as the majority of animation students are trying to do, and is a mjor part of qantms advertising and appeal - then photoshop is an absolute nessessity).

finally, you say you have two years of experience, so i doubt you'll be honing any skills at qantm, certainly not from the classes. The piece of papaer saying 'degree' is inticing, but the quality of your work is worth a lot more, and although many Australian companies advertise that they want applicants with degrees, that's really a way of saying "if you've got a degree it means you have some knowledge of how this all works". but it dosnt realy mean all that much. I dont know about other countries.

i havnt seen you work though, nor know what kind of work you have done in the industry, or know how much you know of things other than straight 3d modeling, so i cant really give you advice on whether you should attend qantm or not in that respect.

I am goin' to QANTM feb 2006 for the diploma in game programming. I've gotten enough feedbacks and reviews abt the school from a lotta people except that they were art students there and I am a programmer. I would love to know if any programmer that graduated from the QANTM diploma landed up a job in a nice company or is it even more tougher than an artist to break in ?

neo_an_anomaly: I graduated from the Qantm Games Programming Diploma in 2002. There are a number Qantm Dip.IT grads working in Brisbane game studios, such as redwyre, who you may have seen on these boards. I myself have been working in a field closely related to games programming since late 2002. Certainly, the hire rate is relatively small, but this reflects the state of the industry, not the quality of the education.

There are mixed reports about Qantm. Overall, I'd say that I got a lot out of my studies there; however, most of the stuff I learnt was extra-curricular. Like most institutions, you get out what you put in.

During the two years I was there, at least eight coders that i knew got jobs during, upon finishing, and/or almost emediatly after finishing. There were very likly several more amougst thoses it didnt know, and more still who have or will get jobs after a bit of further study of their own. Six of those coders were in one or another of the two projects i was involved in, so i can say from experience that they did indeed put A LOT of effort into their respective courses.

Eight from such a small group of the ones i actually knew is a pretty good number too.

Thanx for those feedbacks ! It helps a lot. I am in in to learn and if done well , am sure I won't hv any trouble findin' jobs ! I dun mind waitin' a few months before I land a game programming job. I guess it's natural :) !!

Not sure about how things are now - but during my diploma time at qantm - the class began with some 25 - 30 students and only maybe 10 - 15 people were showing up at the end if that. Of those people i know of 3 programmers + myself who went on to do something to do with the industry.

My best piece of advice is choose your course and attack it with every ounce of energy you have! and if your lucky - (dont make the mistake of taking it for granted) but *IF* your lucky you might be staring at a job offer or two. [:)]

To put every ounce of energy into it is exactly what I want.
I've gotten into a 3d artist job shortly after graduating from highschool, but I finally want to get some degree, + have 2 years to develop my skills on my own.
(..something I found very difficult,alot of work you do when working can be repetive.. and I just have three weeks of crunch time behind me, where I barely modeled and textured anything, but only was involved with polishing and fixing problems)
Oh,not to mention that I want to get better in 3dsmax,it's good to hear that it's taught almost exclusively at Qantm. (been using maya and c4d)
That they don't teach Photoshop is a bitter pill(at least for those who haven't picked up Photoshopskills on their own).
Btw, which engines do you coders use at Qantm? Are you encouraged to develop your own or work with engines like Ogre or Nebula?
(or is do you get to work with Renderware,etc?)

the last two years Ogre has been used, though i believe that's optional, but it's probably best to go with the 'standard' one for the year since the treachers will be able to help your coders out more easily, not to mention QANTM's framework is designed to work with it (which further sugests Ogre will continue to be used into the future).

hi guys,

thought i'd put in my 2 cents here since i just finished the Diploma of animation a few weeks ago.

As many people have already said, you get what you put in basically.. Make the most of your time there and work, work, work. What they teach is pretty basic (i knew absolutely nothing of 3D before QANTM and i'm still saying that), and they went a bit slow for my liking, but you can always get a lecturer to show you whatever you need to know privately, out of class time. But do that as much as you can at the start of the year, end of the year is hectic.

The lessons unfortunately seemed to go the speed of the slowest learners, or those not interested in learning. I got so pissed off watching people chatting on IRC/MSN and forum posting while the lecturer is teaching something, and then having to wait for an hour while he individually shows them all again because they weren't paying attention. I assumed mummy and daddy were payin for the course.

They were really unorganised for a lot of the year. The first Trimester of Wednesday afternoons was pretty much wasted watching animations such as 'Ice Age' or 'Iron Giant'.. and not discussing them, just watching them..
I have nothing against these movies, they're great. i do have something against paying $10,000 to watch these movies when i could be learning so much that they didn't cover, that they should have, during the year.

Some lecturers left a lot to be desired. One example, i was having trouble with mirror mode in skin working. One lecturers reply was, 'it could be because meshsmooth is at the top of the stack'.. That was most certainly not the problem, that was exactly where it was meant to be.. I had no desire to weight a few extra thousand vertices.

Group game level projects, and working with OGRE was interesting, as noone seemed to know what was going on, most lecturers included. We busted our ass's to get the level complete, to get it to the programmers to be finished with triggers and whatever else, and i never saw the level again..

Another point, make sure you get your own BIG external HDD. They supply 1GB of space, yes, 1GB for student storage.. Lets be honest, HD space isn't exactly expensive.. I think a lot of the student fees goes to fixing the elevators every week. The end of the year projects required a lot of rendering to desktop, without being sure they'd still be there when you go to retrieve them the next day. Not fun. And external HDD doesn't come in handy here as i wouldn't trust leavin an external overnight.

And the final projects.. i ended up staying home mostly to do mine.. they have a severe lack of decent machines to work on.. We had about 50 animators this year, fighting over 25 or so decent machines.. Almost every time i went in, i would be stuck on some slow ass PC that can barely handle my scenes, let alone trying to get some cloth simulation or anything a bit more resource heavy going. Also, lecturers at the end of the year, seemed almost non-existant. And quite often when were there, they had no idea how to help anyway. =I

and also, they did touch on Photoshop earlier this year, very basic stuff, but very useful stuff too. More would have been good, but that goes for all lessons and topics in general. They do unfortunately go at the speed of the slower people in the class.

Don't let me scare you off though, of course in this post i'm focusing on negatives, not positives, there were some positives too! Overall, i had a decent year, i learnt a lot, and i think i got my moneys worth but only cuz i put in a lot of work and hours, doing as much, if not more, out of uni hours. The actual facilities, lessons, and some lecturers, aren't really worth it. However, in saying that, i would still go back and do the Degree, if i could afford it, although i'd probably research some other institutions as well. Having the knowledge of what to expect is a big advantage to making the most of it.

Also, they plan to change the course outline again next year so who knows what they'll do..

=I

Whoa...

/crieslikeababy [:D]

OMG! What more can I say? [8D]

Ok, the pr person who was supposed to get the details to me didn't but the AGDC newsletter has some stuff on it...

One of the featured recruiters at this year's AGDC will be Blizzard Entertainment ? from the USA ? one of the world?s leading game studios and creator of the immensely popular Warcraft?, Diablo? and Starcraft? franchises. ?Blizzard is always looking for highly skilled individuals to join the creative teams behind our games.? Said Mike Morhaime, President and Co-Founder of Blizzard Entertainment?. ?With the growth of the gaming industry in Australia, we see the AGDC as an opportunity to learn from the Australian market as well as to discover new talent?.

Hate to put a downer on this thread, but, anyone applying for a position with Blizzard ? who I am not certain but I think are in the USA ? will need a degree to do so, in order to get a work visa. I can?t recall whether it was a 3 year or 4 year degree that was required, or equivalent. In order to be ?equivalent,? it needs to add up to that degree requirement, so 3-4 years at some technical college like TAFE or the AIE might do it. As far as work experience go, I think it translated to either every 2 years of work made one year, or, every 4 years of work made 1 year.

Which doesn?t make sense to me, as I learnt far more from real-world practical experience than I ever did in any technical college.

Anyway, that is just work visas, what is really going to put a downer on any student is when I tell you that Blizzard are most likely not interested in any AIE / college grad. If they want that they can get it in the US. No, why they are here is for ?experienced? professionals. They have probably guessed how the local industry will weather with the arrival of the next-gen gaming platforms, they know that there are some highly talented individuals here that due to being stifled by the local studios, would kill for a chance to work with a high-caliber and profile studio like Blizzard, and get their foot into the door of a larger development region ? perhaps even willing to be ?competitive? in remuneration compared to US candidates, as having Blizzard on your CV will pave the rest of your career-path in gold, if you don?t fuck things up later, or if Blizzard don?t fuck things up for themselves and you [;)]. Blizzard is a studio that would provide such candidates the opportunity to push the boundaries, and work on something other than fee-for-service work, like original and innovative titles ? man, they should hire me as a recruiter, huh!? [:)].

They are here to poach seasoned and experienced developers that have learnt the bulk of the skills that they are looking for, and have a high level of talent, and crave the challenge and stimulus that the local developers are woefully inadequate at providing them with. This is the ?raw? talent they are looking for that they can then train by proxy, as their development culture and practices then influence them as they become part of the team.

I?m sorry to say, the chances that a student will walk into a position with Blizzard are slim, if nonexistent. But hey, shit does happen, right? And you might just learn something from talking to Blizzard, and perhaps make a future contact that will come in handy [:)].

Thought I?d add that any student that hopes to start a game development career, will most likely do so by starting that career here in the Land-of-Oz.

If you are lucky, you will land a junior role with a company like Irrational, Pandemic, Creative Assembly or Team Bondi. These companies have been established by those that have seen more than the local industry, and are developing original and innovative titles, not just fee-for-service work.

These aren?t your only options, landing a position at a publisher first-party developer ? like Midway, THQ, Atari, etc ? would be a good place to start as well, just don?t expect to work on anything original and innovative, but you will have better job security than working at a third-party developer that survives on fee-for-service work, as the former don?t have to beg as much for it from the master?s table ? the publishers [}:)].

Working at Blizzard would be great, but don?t worry too much if you are a student, as there are still opportunities here in Oz ? some of them not too shabby. [8D]

Anyway, didn?t Blizzard have a bunch of people leave recently or something, that formed their own studios?

To just add my shady recollection of what work requirements for the US are, it's university level degree in the relevant field you'll be working in, -OR- X number of years working in that field (I think it was 5 or 6 years) - Then I think you still needed a sponsor of some kind as well as your work already approved and met with the criteria of entrance.

Damn, very good replies, people. It's a bit misleading for PR to make this seem a realistic opportunity for students, and I do feel for those that are making a real effort in the hope landing a job at Blizzard.

Ah, you beat me by 40 minutes [;)] Just posted this on the main page.

I think it's about time a survey like this was conducted, and it's all the more fuel to throw at politicians to get some changes happening.

Similar polls have been conducted for X Rated films, and not surprisingly, yielded similar results. Funny thing is, they're still banned in all states in Australia.

If we ever really want this to change, we need a large shift in politicial attidues in Australia. Unfortunately, our country seems to be moving to the right, which is generally pro-censorship.

There is one good thing this survey does though; next time someone tries to tell me that only gamers support an R rating for games, they're getting slapped with this link. Seriously, the number of times I've said something like "Dude, I bet you if they held a poll...".

I do believe that the average person supports an R rating. It is after all, common sense. The problem is, the ultra-right christian fundamentalist groups (I've recently decided to stop calling them "family groups") are the ones being the most vocal, putting pressure on politicians, who apparently seem to want to listen. On that note, has everyone been paying attention to the Intelligent Design in Schools debate recently? Fuck me.

The problem is Australia still sees games as a kids activity. The wider puiblic dosnt take it seriously as a major form of entertainment. And calling them 'games' dosnt help.

The thing is though, "game" is a perfectly valid term. In its purest sense, a game is just a formal system of interaction between two or more agents (think John Nash and Game Theory). Unfortunately, such definitions don't travel easily beyond the ivory towers, leaving the general public to liken "game" to "toy".

exactly my point.

What's in a name? No seriously though, we call casino play "gaming", and nobody has any problem with that being a restricted adult-only form of entertainment entirely off-limits to minors...

I don't think the name has much to do with the problem - it's just a legal anomaly that we need to find a politician to take up and change. It'll only take a simple amendment and we've jsut seen with the anti-terror law amendment being rushed through today how quickly things CAN change if they need to.

quote:Originally posted by LiveWire
exactly my point.
Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was disagreeing with you [:)]

quote:Originally posted by mcdrewski
we call casino play "gaming", and nobody has any problem with that being a restricted adult-only form of entertainment entirely off-limits to minors...
That is an excellent point.

The anti-terror laws were rushed in because that's what the office of Attorneys General wanted. If the office of Attorneys General wants a change made, it gets made. If it doesn't want it changed, no-one else has the authority to change it. The office of Attorneys General has decreed that adult games are unfit for society and so, they are banned. In order for a politician to change this, they would have to convince the Attorney General that he is wrong. For such a task, I wish them luck.

quote:we call casino play "gaming", and nobody has any problem with that being a restricted adult-only form of entertainment entirely off-limits to minors...

Of course, casino play is properly referred to as gambling - a name that has become degradative and associated with, dare i say it, sinful activity. The gambling industry's practice of calling themselves 'gaming' is an attempt to associate the activity with innocent, playful activity. (I'm not attacking gambling, I'm just stating an opinion).
Calling interactive entertainment 'games' also conjures innocent, child-like play. whether or not games feature this is not what this post is about though - the fact that the name 'games' associates them with children's activities does not help it's reception with the wider non-gamer public.

No, it's not a major issue, in fact is pretty much irrelevant. It's just a point I was bringing up for interests sake.

If anyone's interested in the pdf of the survey (Gameplay - Australia 2005, prepared by Bond University for the Interactive Entertainment Association of Australia), [url="http://www.sumea.com.au/simagesmisc/gameplay.pdf"]you can grab it off Sumea here[/url]...

November 2, 2005

"According to a report on the ABC News website, the Australian provincial government of Victoria is taking the opportunity of a meeting of censorship ministers later this week to ask that national laws be changed, thus changing the rating system to include an 18+ rating."

[url]http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=7048[/url]

The system works [:D]

Thanks for hosting that Souri, I spent a long while trying to find the PDF of results to no avail.

I think the main issue is not so much public ignorance ? beyond parents perhaps that are 35 and older ? but more so to their apathy to do anything about it. Which is not to say that they would not support an R 18+ rating, but rather they don?t do anything about it ? like they don?t do anything about anything.

Then comes ignorance, as people these days are quite often readily accepting to believe anything, especially with scaremongering ? which is why it works well with parents: ?games will turn your children into psychotic killers!? You can see a similar trend with the ?fear? of terrorism, and how that was used to limit and undermine our freedoms ? so as to keep our nation ?safe.? People also have short-attention spans, many forgetting the lessons of the past ? something about fascism comes to mind.

The problem with politicians is that they will only listen to those that make the most noise and make the most pain for them in their day to day political lives. For the politicians that are affected by the issue - the attorney generals for the most part ? their main pressure in the matter comes from right-wing, Christian-fundamentalists (?family first?) extreme conservatives.

They are mobilized and vocal, the christen / evangelical movement indoctrinates and conditions its members to be vocal, and to be willing to protect their ?traditional? way of life ? from whatever the church declares to be eroding it.

This is confounded further in that they are heavily interwoven into politics and the government: The Liberals and Nationals. How many of you have heard of the Lyon?s forum? I first came across the group when looking into censorship in Australia, and recently I have come across a book called: God under Howard ? the Rise of the Religious Right in Australian Politics ? by Marion Maddox.

Basically, the Lyons forum is comprised of Liberal party members ? ministers. They meet on a regular basis to discuss ways of influencing federal and state laws so as to reach their goals of creating a ?family-first? Australia. They are very much conservative, right-wing, fundamentalist, Christians ? anyone really interested should get a copy of the book, it is a quite recent release and good read.

The Liberal party seems to think that because the Australian people have voted them into government based on their economic track-record, that they also want them to not only manage the economy but also to impose their non-secular beliefs upon us as well. In fact they have made secular Australia, and most importantly politics, into a non-secular Australia and government.

This academic survey, is one more piece of ammunition to use in changing game censorship and classification for the better. But, and it is a big but, it is all worth naught if people do not make use of it, and I mean make use of it in a large and organized movement. You have to be a larger pain in their arses than the ?family-first? groups, you have to get your point-of-view across and combat it with the facts so far, to counter their unfounded scaremongering within the wider community ? not just gaming community. You have to drown out this small yet vocal minority that claims to be speaking for a majority when they are clearly not. You have to become that unspoken majority?s voice, you have to expose them for the right-wing fundamentalists that they are. You have to show that it is this minority that is dictating your way of life and pose a question to the majority of the Australian people, which many sources shows to be secular in beliefs and way of life, and ask whether they want to have the fundamentalist Christian way of life imposed upon them.

The best way to think of it, and perhaps many will disagree, but is to think of it as a war, a war of ideologies and beliefs. They are ready to do whatever it takes to win, are you?

I think this is a war that needs to be fought, it is not just about game censorship and classification, it is far more than that, as it pervades all aspects of our daily lives. If you really want to make a difference, write letters to the OFLC, to the attorney generals, and any other politician that is affected ? hell, even write letters to the family first groups, and show them that you are starting to make your voice heard.

Most importantly, get mobilized and organized, as that is the only way to win this war, to apply pressure and keep on applying it and building the pressure up. It is a hard fight but one I think can and ultimately will be won, if people are willing to do something about it other than to show complete apathy about it, and to give in to hopelessness ? which is what you have been conditioned to do and is what they want ? then progress will be made, slowly at first, but then it will gain in force and speed, exponentially.

BTW: don?t expect that meeting to do anything much. At best it is a small step and a political stunt, it is not the major step and sweeping changes of reform that we all want it to be. That will only come with far more community involvement.

A fantastic post, CynicalFan. I'm with you all the way.

Wow...with all this mobilisation type talk, one could almost accuse you of being militant! [;)]

quote:Originally posted by CynicalFan
If you really want to make a difference, write letters to the OFLC, to the attorney generals, and any other politician that is affected ? hell, even write letters to the family first groups, and show them that you are starting to make your voice heard.

As has already been pointed out, the simple fact is that the non-gaming public don't have a clue when it comes to computer games. It's not just the politicians you need to lobby, you need to get your "facts" (and I use that term reservedly) in front of every Joe and Jane Non-Gamer out there and block the hyperbole that is constantly spewing forth from the print and broadcast media - and complete crackpots like Jack Thompson. The key is to present your arguments in a very clear and concise and (dare I say it) well-educated manner, with supporting data when available. Simply spraying "sTupId n00bs all suXzoR!!!11eleven" everywhere is only going to alienate people.

Yeah? I resent being referred to as militant. Mobilised is an appropriate term, in that is what they are, ?mobilised? as in a movement. I suppose you don?t know that much about the nature of politics, so I will let your ignorant remark slide for the most part.

If you ever read one political science text, try: The Prince ? by Niccolo Machiavelli. It is probably one of the most famous works on politics ever, and much of it revolves around war and military issues ? as war is nothing more than ?forceful? diplomacy. Politics and business have a lot in common as well, but where as in politics they would probably refrain from describing things in a war like context, in business they are not. They describe it exactly as being a war, and many business strategy texts site military works like: The Art of War ? by Sun Tzu.

quote: As has already been pointed out, the simple fact is that the non-gaming public don't have a clue when it comes to computer games. It's not just the politicians you need to lobby, you need to get your "facts" (and I use that term reservedly) in front of every Joe and Jane Non-Gamer out there and block the hyperbole that is constantly spewing forth from the print and broadcast media - and complete crackpots like Jack Thompson. The key is to present your arguments in a very clear and concise and (dare I say it) well-educated manner, with supporting data when available. Simply spraying "sTupId n00bs all suXzoR!!!11eleven" everywhere is only going to alienate people.

I believe that I made the point of making your point known to the wider community, not just gaming community, and the key point in not making it a ?gaming? issue but a ?censorship? issue across the board, with a minority imposing their beliefs and values upon the majority ? with that one would assume a level of political savvy in how you would approach doing this and making your point.

So you kind of stated the obvious [;)].

I went through most of that pdf yesterday, some interesting (and often surprising) results in there.

some highlights:
> 9 out of 10 people support an R18+ rating!
> a great deal of parents use the rating system and are aware of the games their kids play (seems the parents know it's their responsibilty afterall)
> the average age of a gamer is - if i remeber correctly - about 30 (not surprising, i figured it would be simular to the US, but it's good to have a diffinative Australian figure)
> about 40% of gamers are female (again, not very syrprising)
> M and MA rated games are a minority

perhaps i was wrong about games being persieved as kids toys? but then again, perhaps not, as it's mostly the non-gaming public that seems to take this view, perhaps the view is simply not as wide spread as i thought - and the non-gamers are all in possitions where they can make a fuss.
The survey also debunks the idea that the rating system is useless and parents are incabable of raising their kids without government help, since most parents use them (which makes me wonder why the needed to change the old, unitrusive "black outline" rating icons to the new "super-bight" icons that screem "look! i'm over here! i'm M rated!" and draws your attention away from the box, breaking the asthetics like someone flashing a torch in your eyes. why they have to stand out i dont know. if someone wants to check the rating they know where to find it, why they feel the need to shove it in your face is beyond me).

Oh one more thing, in order to do that and achieve an R rating for games, you will have to become organised and mobilised, as in a movement.

the first rule about the R movement is you do not talk about the R movement

Ha, ha, ha? very funny. It is probably people like you and your attitude that will result in there never being an R rating in the Land-of-Oz. [:p]

quote:Originally posted by CynicalFan
Yeah? I resent being referred to as militant. Mobilised is an appropriate term, in that is what they are, ?mobilised? as in a movement. I suppose you don?t know that much about the nature of politics, so I will let your ignorant remark slide for the most part.
My remark was in jest, hence the [;)]. It's true I may not pay much attention to politics, but no need to get testy.

quote:I believe that I made the point of making your point known to the wider community, not just gaming community, and the key point in not making it a ?gaming? issue but a ?censorship? issue across the board, with a minority imposing their beliefs and values upon the majority ? with that one would assume a level of political savvy in how you would approach doing this and making your point.
See, political savvy is not something we are all so blessed with and all too often people go off half-cocked and end up doing more harm than good. Case in point: the recent bout of insanity from Jack Thompson. As the [url=http://www.penny-arcade.com/news.php?date=2005-10-19#2841]Penny Arcade[/url] guys point out, imagine if he actually had half a brain?

So, hey, I might be stating the obvious, but the heat of the moment sometimes clouds reason.

Fair enough, just don?t like being referred to as militant. Brings up a picture of a bearded smelly-guy in camo-gear with a rifle, fighting a guerrilla war in the jungle somewhere. Sounds a bit too much like terrorist as well, and with these new anti-terror laws, who the hell knows where you might end up with a label like militant [:D].

Everyone should check out the Interactive Entertainment Association of Australia website. There's some interesting stuff there, especially some local research on [url="http://www.ieaa.com.au/factsAndResearch/gamesAndViolence.do"]games & violence[/url].

Anyway, does anyone think the IEAA may be a competing association to the GDAA? I remember the local PC/console games industry wasn't their focus a few years a go, but it seems they've changed direction.

In regards to developers, no they don?t appear to be a local competitor, though perhaps the IGDA is in a more ?grassroots? way. If I understand the stuff on the website, in order to be a member of the IEAA, you pretty much have to be a distributor, manufacturer or publisher of gaming titles ? not a developer. It?s kind of a shame, as the IEAA I think has far more political muscle than the GDAA does ? being made up of major / large international publishers. The GDAA to me are all about short-term and superficial goals, for instance I think that they have no real plans nor interest in pursuing the game rating issue, as they believe that to be successful you should focus on making E for Everyone games ? reasoning that these are more ?massmarket.? Where as the IEAA is really trying in regards to long-term goals like game rating and censorship, the GDAA is more about increasing developer welfare to keep the dinosaurs afloat, and weather the next-gen storm. It would be interesting to see whether the IEAA are trying to do anything for game investment here as well, by encourage the government to put in place initiatives and broaden the coverage of film concessions to games ? in regards to tax-breaks and investors. I think they would be far more successful than the GDAA, but seeing as their members are large publishers, I do not seeing this being an interest of the IEAA.

If you really want a rivalry to the GDAA, then I suggest expanding the scope and aim of the local IGDA chapter/s, to being something more than a social group for friendless and social-life lacking developers. If that doesn?t appeal to you, then you could always make plans of establishing another association altogether ? perhaps a local union for the industry?

It's fairly normal in the corporate world to update your "resume" to only mention staff currently working at the company...

To play devils advocate, it's one of those "morally unfair" things that are quite common in this industry; although on a personal level it's unfair to not give recognition and credit to John Passfield as a major contributor to kromes founding and history, looking at it from a business perspective, it's also quite an obvious and logical thing to want to omit. So in that regard it's a sound choice, and ultimately it's the company owners own history to write how they want it presented.

In terms of the "morally unfair" topic, it's similar to giving an outsourcing company that did 9/10th's of your art requirement no credit, or a 1 line mention under "additional art". Unfair to the individual, but unfortunately sound from the business perspective.

Ty Forever? Tykatana?

I guess this is where in an ideal world a studio with some financial stability could take some risks with gameplay and development. Perhaps do what google does where everyone spends a day a week on "skunkworks" developments. Most people I've met in the industry have great ideas coming out of every pore but not enough time to build them...

We could end up with our own KaTymari Damacy [:)] breakthrough hit!

Oh there?s ALWAYS something to make of something. Take Capcom for instance.. HOW many megaman spin offs have they made.. And one of em [battle network] is completely different form the others and it sells tons-o-money.

For Krome here an example:

Ty the Tasmanian tiger 4: New features.

Customisable Vehicles and Bunyips:
[Basically a further evolution of "rang" customising idea.] Different situations call for different vehicles. Customise your Jeep with new engines and tires. Your Bunyips with different weapon and frame systems. You can even colour the Bunyip to your own personal tastes [Armoured Core]

Construction: The town has been wiped off the map and the only way to get it back is by rebuilding it. As you save more and more town members? new blueprints for buildings become available and the player can choose where and what he/she wants built for the townspeople. But Ty must venture into the bush [dungeon siege style] to gather materials [dark chronicle.]

Other playable characters: When Ty can't make the call someone?s gotta do it. You can play as Shazzer and Tys' Brother to handle different emergencies. Each character has there own different weapon and core ability.

These ideas aren?t revolutionary or very original. But if im a kid whose been a fan of the last 3 Tys being able to play as other characters and given more freedom into customisation would be just the ticket... these are just brain storm ideas.

To put it short.. Krome and Pandemic have a lot of options.. They could very well make a 4th Ty. The question being is the people who are making it [artists/designers/programmers] willing to take the Tasmanian tiger out of a 4th round?

I've just read a [url="http://xbox.ign.com/articles/662/662156p1.html"]new review over at IGN on TY3[/url], and the consensus is that a change really is neeed.
quote:My younger nephew plays and really likes the first two Ty outings and I'm confident he'll like this one, too. But the Ty series has never been original and this latest version feels like a copy of a copy. Gamers who played and didn't like the other two versions will find nothing new here and Ty fans may find themselves wondering why very little has changed.

Like the other Ty platformers, Night of the Quinkan has its moments, but the series needs some dramatic changes to reach new heights.

Some interesting ideas there Caroo. Other playable characters is an option that other platformers have taken as well. Take the long running Sonic franchise for instance, where they've made a game completely with an enemy character (Shadow the hedgehog) as the focus. I would say that it's a safe bet that Krome will be working on a 4th Ty.

If I could add one thing into the Ty franchise it wouldn't be a game play feature..

It would be emotion and depth..

I use the game "JAK 3" to guide my analysis in younger targeted kids games and one of the main reasons for this isn?t just its evolving game play but the fact that so much emotion and character is put into it.

Facial expressions where abundant and the animation quality was very good. As there commentary states it took them one day for every 6 seconds of cut scene animation and there?s a good 30minites in there.

I'd love to see the same amount of emotion and character in a TY game. The characters currently in Ty are pretty 2 demesnial and Ty just said "no worries" half of the time in Ty 2: bush rescue. It had solid game play but it was both to short and felt like storyline was ether watered down or ill conceived due to time restrictions.

Then again I get very cynical about these things XD.

My two cents on the ty games anyway. Heres hoping ty 3 has more character.

I once read a fascinating rant on the Sonic franchise talking about how much sonic changed (for the worse) when new characters and gameplay mechanics were introduced.

Was in Issue 1 of [url="http://www.thegamersquarter.com/"]The Gamer's Quarter[/url] which you can download [url="http://www.thegamersquarter.com/issues/GamersQuarter1.zip"]here[/url]

Well I guess your question of 'where to for Pandemic' has been well and truly answered!

http://www.gamespot.com/6137143
http://www.elevation.com/downloads/News_11-3.pdf

This is this huge news for the local industry! It will be really interesting to see in what ways this extra freedom and financial flexibility will help Pandemic create unique titles.

wow now thats a development! could we have comment from the pandemic guys as to what its like to have bono as a boss ;)

I say it's always been an issue.

There was a particular incident when I was studying where the same subject was repeated over two semesters. Apparently two students in the second semester were expelled because they just took the assignment work of a student from the first semester and presented as their own. Very lazy and very stupid.

That's what premiminary trials in jobs are for. If you get a job using credentials you haven't earned and skills you haven't learned, then you won't be able to do the work and will lose your job VERY quickly.

You're only cheating yourself(tm).

Scott.

Perhaps I could have put it better "it is becoming more of an issue" i.e. more people seem to be doing it, and more are getting caught.

From the uni's perspective letting these people through can really hurt an institutions reputation. Hence more and more effort is devoted to catching it before graduation and preliminary trials happen.

Letting through a graduate who doesn't know the difference between a pointer to an array and an array of pointers doesn't do anyone any good.

Java doesn't have pointers. :P

(Broad sweeping attack on IT degrees).

Scott.

Plagiarism is about as low as you can get in my opinion.

In my experience, theres no reason for it. If you're simply incapable of doing work to a required standard, you have to try harder, or seriously consider a different field. Don't mooch off the success of others.

Lorien started this topic probably primarily with a focus on coding but the whole issue becomes a bit messy with art. Because obviously a trace is plagiarism, but is a similar idea? a characters similar article of clothing? etc. Where do you draw the line?

quote:Originally posted by rezn0r

Java doesn't have pointers. :P

I know this was a joke, but every damn procedural language has pointers, they just call them references, aliases or whatever.

Anyhoo - I suggest all students plagarise their work in handwritten form to counteract the databases. :) Seriously though while I agree it's a huge issue, there's plagiarism and then there's real life. I worry about these tools finding 'false positives' - especially given the reliance on them by overworked and underfunded lecturers.

I had 'a friend' that once decompiled an assembly language 'worked solution' then rearranged the code, labels and subroutines for an assignment; I also 'knew of' a cabal of students who divided up their group assignments for the entire semester. In my degree, when one multiple choice question in a mid-semester exam was worth 2% of 12 credit points, and forty-hours of assignment work for another lecturer was worth 2% of 8 credit points, the system really lost all credibility.

Students will always work together to solve problems, just like people do in the workplace. They will pay each other, or second / third / fourth / perennial students to do their work (or help to the point that it's virtually done anyway). They will keep last years assignments and there will be a black market in them. And all this means that if the same assignment is reused year-on-year, the odds of a positive hit for plagiarism increase. It also means the odds of a false positive increase. There's only so many ways to argue a point/solve a problem/describe an algorithm effectively.

In the workplace if you claim work that's not yours you are a pr*ck who's gunning for a firing. If you build on huge slabs of work that's not yours you're a professional who'll be promoted. If it's been solved before and you find the solution rather than rebuild it, you're a rarity.

And moony - all art is theft anyway. :)

Edit: That reads (apart from me looking more like a w*nker than normal) a bit like I'm condoning plagiarism, which is absolutely not the case. I'm a stickler for EULAs and details of license agreements in my professional life and assiduously note the source and check the license of anything I take off the web or any published reference material. I do, however, have a number of concerns about these sorts of databases, including students being required to grant IP rights to corporations that are profiting off their work without that being disclosed to them when they apply to the uni. But bigger, the ramifications of a false positive hit for plagiarism are huge for an honest person, and I fear the safeguards in the absence of compulsory student unionism.

quote:Originally posted by mcdrewski
And moony - all art is theft anyway. :)

ha, we just invented names for that! like homage, appropriation and if all else fails; post modernist covers everything :D

I take your point about VSU mcdrewski (just to emphasise here: my job is dependent on my being a student atm- it's a teaching fellowship), but in general we are pretty kind in that we ask for explanations before taking action, and first definite offence is a warning. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. It's the really blatant cases (like putting your assignment up for tender on rentacoder) that get really harsh penalties. Also there are normally teltale signs eg failing lab work and exams, but getting 90+ in an assignment. In that case we give the student an oral quiz about how their assignment was put together and works, and maybe ask them to modify it somehow.

In the case of written work run through a plagiarism detector, when it detects something it puts the student's work and the similar passage next to each other, and it's human judgement that decides.

Quite a while ago I had to deal with a student stupid enough to leave the following in submitted assignment code:

[code]
//Here you go. That will be $500. My bank account details follow:
//xxxxxxxx
//xxxxxxxx
//Thanks,
//xxxxxx
[/code]

They hadn't even looked at it.

The most evil kind of cheating I've come across is (also quite some time ago) a full fee paying international student offered me $2000 for 7 marks. He'd got 43. Give me a degree and make it a pass! [:(] Of course I didn't accept, but I felt dirty anyway. I didn't report him by name, but I told high ups about it, and one said "well, I guess that's what happens when things get a bit too commercial". Now I would throw the book at him.

Internation students are often under immense pressure from family, sometimes their government, and if they fail consistently, from the dept of immigration.

quote:Originally posted by mcdrewski

quote:Originally posted by rezn0r

Java doesn't have pointers. :P

I know this was a joke, but every damn procedural language has pointers, they just call them references, aliases or whatever.

Actually no they aren't the same.

What's a null reference? What's a null pointer?

That's right the first doesn't exist.

Personally I think the automated checkers are complete BS. The triviality of Uni assignments means you'll get false positives.

What procedures do you have in place to deal with that? How can you *prove* someone is cheating, except in *very obvious* cases.

void * null_pointer = 0;
void *& null_reference = null_pointer;

quote:Originally posted by davidcoen

void * null_pointer = 0;
void *& null_reference = null_pointer;

No, that's a valid reference to a null pointer. But Mcdrewski is right, references really are just (const) pointers.

pb

quote:Originally posted by Dragoon

Personally I think the automated checkers are complete BS. The triviality of Uni assignments means you'll get false positives.

What procedures do you have in place to deal with that? How can you *prove* someone is cheating, except in *very obvious* cases.

Plenty of the assignments are not so trivial, and they get less trivial the longer you stay. Some are trivial. Assignments get vetted i.e. someone is paid to do them before the students even see them, comments received, and changes made. If it can't be proved but it's highly suspect afaik the situation is explained to the student and no action taken.

With some of the really non-trivial assignments (eg big software engineering group projects) tutors are seeing work and updates every week, and at assessment time group members are quizzed on knowledge of how the project was put together and works.

It can hard to detect, there's no denying it, particularly with reasonably smart and devious students [:)], but if they're really smart they don't plagiarise- they have no need to try.

quote:
quote:
...every damn procedural language has pointers, they just call them references, aliases or whatever.

Actually no they aren't the same.
What's a null reference? What's a null pointer?
That's right the first doesn't exist.

We're going to get into a semantic argument here, which I hate because I'm an amateur [url="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=define%3A+etymology&btnG=Search"]etymologist[/url] as well as a bit of a [url="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=define%3A+pedant&btnG=Search"]pedant[/url] and I just can't stop myself when I think I'm right about a word/definition or description. So everyone can ignore this post (sorry for hijacking your thread lorien), but I just have to write it. sorry. [:P]

In C++, Dragoon is right, the term 'null reference' has no meaning. However there absolutely is a concept which can be described as 'null references'. For example, in Java, think about the following chunk of code.

[code]
Player p[];
p = new Player[10];
[/code]

Until each Player object in the array is instantiated, we have an array of references to uninstantiated Player objects. 'null references' for want of a better term.

In short, as soon as you have a way of describing one object by two different names, you have aliases, or references, or pointers etc. Dig deep enough in virtually any procedural language and you'll start to find traps,tricks and caveats that only make sense if you think in terms of pointers. The language might do everything in it's power to hide those tricks from you so you never try any form of *i++ malarky, but under the covers it's all the same thing (since at CPU level the computer can only think in terms of data or the address where that data is stored).

Yes the underlying implementation of references would indeed use pointers at some time, however consider:

*p = 10;

Some languages may have specific situations where you might call them something similar to null references but they can't be used like a null pointer (comparison wise can you use them in logical operations? maybe you can? I would imagine in Java that in your array situation arr[0] != arr[1] even though they are not initialised - likely it would throw a not initialised exception or something as it can't get the hash code of the objects). NB: Java isn't my strongest language.

The concept of a pointer is also different from the concept of a reference. Pointers are a location in memory, which can be used as a reference, but allow you to do a whole lot more (and shoot yourself in the foot in a myriad of additional ways). A reference is just that, a reference to an object that allows the compiler or interpreter to match up the code using it to the original object.

quote:Originally posted by lorien

quote:Originally posted by Dragoon

Personally I think the automated checkers are complete BS. The triviality of Uni assignments means you'll get false positives.

What procedures do you have in place to deal with that? How can you *prove* someone is cheating, except in *very obvious* cases.

Plenty of the assignments are not so trivial, and they get less trivial the longer you stay. Some are trivial. Assignments get vetted i.e. someone is paid to do them before the students even see them, comments received, and changes made. If it can't be proved but it's highly suspect afaik the situation is explained to the student and no action taken.

With some of the really non-trivial assignments (eg big software engineering group projects) tutors are seeing work and updates every week, and at assessment time group members are quizzed on knowledge of how the project was put together and works.

It can hard to detect, there's no denying it, particularly with reasonably smart and devious students [:)], but if they're really smart they don't plagiarise- they have no need to try.

Well when I went through the ANU, there would only be 1 assignment I would have characterised as non-trivial - a 6mth group project (even then its still pretty trivial). No need to plagarise there.

Every other assignment would not be more than a few hundred lines of code at best. Trivial. Some may be tricky due to the concepts or algorithms involved, but still trivial in size.

Did people cheat. Yep, they were lazy or couldn't do it and got their friends to help. Did some get "caught" through their "clever" detection programs. Yep. Did some of them get awarded marks anyway - Yep, because the lecturers couldn't "prove" when the students complained to the uni admin that the students *without a doubt* cheated. Did they get false positives. Yep.

Moral is, that as a student if you get accused of cheating - complain and get your results reviewed. More likely than not you'll get your marks.

Simple fact is Comp Sci teachers *hope* students will just take it and not complain.

quote:
Well when I went through the ANU, there would only be 1 assignment I would have characterised as non-trivial - a 6mth group project (even then its still pretty trivial). No need to plagarise there.

Every other assignment would not be more than a few hundred lines of code at best. Trivial. Some may be tricky due to the concepts or algorithms involved, but still trivial in size.

Did people cheat. Yep, they were lazy or couldn't do it and got their friends to help. Did some get "caught" through their "clever" detection programs. Yep. Did some of them get awarded marks anyway - Yep, because the lecturers couldn't "prove" when the students complained to the uni admin that the students *without a doubt* cheated. Did they get false positives. Yep.

Moral is, that as a student if you get accused of cheating - complain and get your results reviewed. More likely than not you'll get your marks.

Simple fact is Comp Sci teachers *hope* students will just take it and not complain.

Fair enough [:)] As you can see elsewhere on sumea students can be very good at complaining very loudly [:D] and things do slip though, as I've said above.

There are a lot of checks in place in case of false positives to begin with, and there are also plenty of ways to apeal. As there should be. I think you'll find the last thing most institutions want to do is produce pissed-off students and graduates.

What was the 1 assignment? I haven't done undergrad comp-sci, and so I only know the comp-sci assignments I see as part of work.

The 6 month group project software engineering subject I take in second semesters have been making galactic mapping simulators this year, where you pilot a super-light ship through a moving, persistent 3d galaxy to find new stars. They haven't had to do 3d graphics, though some have. It is being done for the Victorian Space Science Education Centre, and is tied in with the Gaia project of the Europen Space Agency (just google "gaia project"). VSSEC is a state govt funded oranisation to "promote science and mathematics education to Victorian students by exposing them to the exciting world of space science" http://www.vssec.org/index.html

Sure it's still a toy project, but it's a pretty hefty toy if you try to go for perfect marks, which people do.

I can say that some of the most full-on assignments of my life came from the Canberra School of Music, which is part of the ANU too. And they were in first year (I left to do a more specialised music tech course at La Trobe). Ancient history here... I was at the CSM in 1994, and I'd already spent 2 years at another music school studying guitar instead of composition.

Letting through completely incompetent graduates does tend to piss-off the good ones quite a bit too.

My original point in this thread was "don't cheat". There are a bunch of reasons for not doing it, and all the reasons to do it mark you as being corrupt, lazy and/or stupid.

That assignment on rentacoder went around the La Trobe comp-sci academic staff mailing list. It was actually a joke played by another staff member, and it isn't real. Though I didn't know that when I made this thread, and La Trobe's (and many, many other institution's) assignments have found there way onto that and similar sites.

We seem to find around 1 like this each year.

quote:Originally posted by lorien

Letting through completely incompetent graduates does tend to piss-off the good ones quite a bit too.

Indeed :P Cheapens the nature of the entire course really.
I don't like spending thousands of dollars to work at an accreditation, only to have someone who was never there receive the same xeroxed diploma.

I like it when training institutions treat you like customers.

Don't loose your temper Bob [:)] Course isn't all it cheapens.

They weren't xeroxed btw, they were printed on the office inkjet.

Edit: your previous eloquence is hopefully enough [:)] Maybe give them a while at least.

This exact topic with the exact same site just hit slashdot
quote:
Carl Bialik from the WSJ writes "'If U.S. companies can go online to outsource their programming, why can't U.S. computer students outsource their homework--which, after all, often involves writing sample programs?' Wall Street Journal colummnist Lee Gomes asks. 'Scruples aside, no reason at all. Search for "homework" in the data base of Rent A Coder projects, and you get 1,000 hits. (An impressive number, but still a tiny fraction of all computer students, the vast majority of whom are no doubt an honest and hardworking lot.)' Some of the Rent a Coder users appear to be outsourcing their way through school, at low costs--probably less than $100 per assignment. The posting are, of course, anonymous, but Gomes traces one to a student at the New Jersey Institute of Technology, where an instructor tells him that Rent a Coder contributed to a problem of plagiarism last semester."

I'll add that people may find some of Dragoon's comments in this thread have more meaning when you know he's been AIE Canberra staff.

quote:Originally posted by lorien

This exact topic with the exact same site just hit slashdot
quote:
Carl Bialik from the WSJ writes "'If U.S. companies can go online to outsource their programming, why can't U.S. computer students outsource their homework--which, after all, often involves writing sample programs?' Wall Street Journal colummnist Lee Gomes asks. 'Scruples aside, no reason at all. Search for "homework" in the data base of Rent A Coder projects, and you get 1,000 hits. (An impressive number, but still a tiny fraction of all computer students, the vast majority of whom are no doubt an honest and hardworking lot.)' Some of the Rent a Coder users appear to be outsourcing their way through school, at low costs--probably less than $100 per assignment. The posting are, of course, anonymous, but Gomes traces one to a student at the New Jersey Institute of Technology, where an instructor tells him that Rent a Coder contributed to a problem of plagiarism last semester."

I'll add that people may find some of Dragoon's comments in this thread have more meaning when you know he's been AIE Canberra staff.

Once again a cryptic statement - what are you trying to say Lorien? What do I or the AIE have to do with Rent-A-Coder?

All I've said is that at Uni, its hard to know (and prove) whether someones work is their own (and if you accuse them they have many avenues of appeal in their favour). With vocational training its easy to know, but hard to fail them if they've turned up to classes. Just the way the system works.

Edit: If you care to read through this thread, you'll see my comments are in no way mentioned or directed at Rent-A-Coder, at any particular kind of training, just at automated assignment checkers. What does the AIE or vocational vs university training have to do with it?

In the other thread, if you care to read, my comments were solely about the differences between vocational and university training in general, not even specifically to the games industry, until you started trying to draw everything into a Lorien vs AIE discussion. Are you attempting to do so once again?

I, for one, would like to know where you get your deep seated dislike of the AIE from, and why you try to draw almost every discussion about industry education into an AIE is bad discussion; after all did they not help you get your current position? You always mention the AIE as if it, or anything associated with it is bad.

What companies did you apply for with your really good demo reel?
(I could enquire for you as to reasons they did not hire if you like)

quote:Originally posted by lorien
Not getting hired whilst having a really good demo reel was part of why I decided to do more study- and it took around 8 months for one of my programmer classmates with 1st class honours in software engineering and the AIE's dip comp game dev to get a games programming job.

Is there somewhere you have it online? I'll provide you with a critique if you like. Many students can't think objectively about their own work, and many don't know what games companies are looking for when they hire. There are also other reasons why someone won't be offered a job - eg. their personality doesn't match the team, someone with more targetted or appropriate skills applies, they are waiting on the publisher for confirmation on a project before getting back to people (this can take ages), they just aren't hiring (a lot of companies - not just games - do have advertisements up in case someone exceptional applies - they make a position for them).

quote:
Once again a cryptic statement - what are you trying to say Lorien? What do I or the AIE have to do with Rent-A-Coder?

Nothing at all. I feel your posts reflect something of where you worked is all.

I have no interest in conversations with you Dragoon, I have an extremely low opinion of you and you're one of the last people on earth I'd ask for a critique.

I also caught you lying through your teeth on sumea in another thread that was started by someone straight out of high school.

Obviously you don't know the very rude nickname we had for you in Canberra. It wasn't me who devised it.

quote:Originally posted by lorien


quote:
Once again a cryptic statement - what are you trying to say Lorien? What do I or the AIE have to do with Rent-A-Coder?

Nothing at all. I have no interest in conversations with you Dragoon, I have an extremely low opinion of you and you're one of the last people on earth I'd ask for a critique.

I also caught you lying through your teeth on sumea in another thread that was started by someone straight out of high school.

Obviously you don't know the very rude nickname we had for you in Canberra. It wasn't me who devised it.

Ah yes, you show your true colours regarding people you don't like again. Personal attacks. I really don't care what your opinion is of me... people here can make their own minds up. Really if it wasn't for some of the things you've been saying here over the months, I wouldn't have an account on Sumea at all :-P Lying through my teeth? good one! please tell (useless without relevant quotes) :-)

Why not put down your own reasons and opinions regarding the AIE and its founders for once. People can plainly see them in what you're saying. All I see you do is posture and quote other people... I have yet to hear why you dislike it/them so much?

Since you like bagging out you're classmates, should we go back to your dislike of Python? should we bring up mistakes you have made? given how you like to discuss your classmates failings? would you care to share your experience with Python while at the AIE with people here? Did your time at the AIE help you get your current job?

quote:Originally posted by Dragoon
Ah yes, you show your true colours regarding people you don't like again. Personal attacks. I really don't care what your opinion is of me... people here can make their own minds up. Really if it wasn't for some of the things you've been saying here over the months, I wouldn't have an account on Sumea at all :-P Lying through my teeth? good one! please tell (useless without relevant quotes) :-)

[:)]

both from http://sumea.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3447&whichpage=3

Me:
quote:
I think it's dishonest to go giving advice to kids straight out of high school without telling them you are or have been a staff member at an institution. I've said where I study and work, and have done so plenty of times on sumea. You guys have been avoiding it like crazy is how it seems to me (Dragoon is/was AIE Canberra staff too).

Dragoon:
quote:
I don't work for the AIE. The only relationship I have with them is through giving guest industry lectures to their programming students.

Quite aside from the realtionship between MF and the AIE- a relationship which found some expression in legal documents- saying that the only relationship is as a guest lecturer is an outright lie imho.

As for personal attacks you were the one who started them http://sumea.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=897&whichpage=2 by accusing me of spreading false information.

quote:
Why not put down your own reasons and opinions regarding the AIE and its founders for once. People can plainly see them in what you're saying. All I see you do is posture and quote other people... I have yet to hear why you dislike it/them so much?

Primarily because of my current job as acting head of games tech at La Trobe. You should have asked earlier [:)]

quote:
Since you like bagging out you're classmates, should we go back to your dislike of Python? should we bring up mistakes you have made? given how you like to discuss your classmates failings? would you care to share your experience with Python while at the AIE with people here? Did your time at the AIE help you get your current job?

I'm not bagging out ex-classmates (OK except 1). I don't dislike python at all, I think it's got some problems, but then so does every language under the sun. Guido is one hell of a guy imho. I didn't use python at all while at the AIE- where did you get that idea? I'd used python extensively 2 or 3 years earlier. I use programs written in python like scons most days still, just I choose other languages for my own programming.

Attending the AIE had nothing to do with my job, which is a teaching fellowship (awarded like a scholarship). The official title is "Associate Lecturer" FYI. How could having done a course without a programming teacher have helped? How I got the job/MSc candidature was by giving a seminar, using my old uni marks, with a portfolio that was made after leaving the AIE (not a single line of Hail code in it) and with references from old teachers at the ANU and La Trobe, along with AIE classmates with comp-sci honours degrees. I was even told point blank that a reference from any vocational training institution would be completely useless in applying for postgrad research (it's not for undergrad).

quote:Originally posted by lorien

quote:Originally posted by Dragoon
Ah yes, you show your true colours regarding people you don't like again. Personal attacks. I really don't care what your opinion is of me... people here can make their own minds up. Really if it wasn't for some of the things you've been saying here over the months, I wouldn't have an account on Sumea at all :-P Lying through my teeth? good one! please tell (useless without relevant quotes) :-)

[:)]

both from http://sumea.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3447&whichpage=3

Me:
quote:
I think it's dishonest to go giving advice to kids straight out of high school without telling them you are or have been a staff member at an institution. I've said where I study and work, and have done so plenty of times on sumea. You guys have been avoiding it like crazy is how it seems to me (Dragoon is/was AIE Canberra staff too).

Dragoon:
quote:
I don't work for the AIE. The only relationship I have with them is through giving guest industry lectures to their programming students.

Quite aside from the realtionship between MF and the AIE- a relationship which found some expression in legal documents- saying that the only relationship is as a guest lecturer is an outright lie imho.

I think you misinterpreted what I said there. I don't work for AIE doesn't mean I never did. I disclosed I do guest lectures (one last year) and they contact me for them, and I am not obliged or paid to do them in any way.

quote:Originally posted by lorien
As for personal attacks you were the one who started them http://sumea.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=897&whichpage=2 by accusing me of spreading false information.

quote:
Why not put down your own reasons and opinions regarding the AIE and its founders for once. People can plainly see them in what you're saying. All I see you do is posture and quote other people... I have yet to hear why you dislike it/them so much?

Primarily because of my current job as acting head of games tech at La Trobe. You should have asked earlier [:)]

I did say I might have been a bit hasty in my comment and apologised for it. So it is ethical to repeatedly bring up peoples points of views that coincide with your own regarding other institutions, as long as you don't present them as your own?

quote:Originally posted by lorien
quote:
Since you like bagging out you're classmates, should we go back to your dislike of Python? should we bring up mistakes you have made? given how you like to discuss your classmates failings? would you care to share your experience with Python while at the AIE with people here? Did your time at the AIE help you get your current job?

I'm not bagging out ex-classmates (OK except 1). I don't dislike python at all, I think it's got some problems, but then so does every language under the sun. Guido is one hell of a guy imho. I didn't use python at all while at the AIE- where did you get that idea? I'd used python extensively 2 or 3 years earlier. I use programs written in python like scons most days still, just I choose other languages for my own programming.

My memory maybe failing as to who, but I do recall being called to come down and fix up a students code because they had changed the Python headers (of all things?) and broken the compilation, blaming Python? Ruby was chosen in the end for Hail scripting I believe, so it wasn't long used.

quote:Originally posted by Dragoon
My memory maybe failing as to who, but I do recall being called to come down and fix up a students code because they had changed the Python headers (of all things?) and broken the compilation, blaming Python? Ruby was chosen in the end for Hail scripting I believe, so it wasn't long used.

I was trying to make some ruby bindings for parts of Jet for a while, and I didn't want to hack the Jet headers, so I tried hacking ruby to be able to deal with binding libraries with __fastcall conventions being default. None of us touched python at all. Entr0py did hack the Jet headers a little in the process of trying to bypass the entire rendering/mesh/animation sections of Jet while using it to open a window so we could still tell AIE management "we are using Jet" without lying, and you doing the Jet re-install and making it read only made us decide "stuff the management, Jet is history", which it was really anyway because it was only used to open a window. Ruby was chosen right from the start for Hail scripting, python was never even considered as you can see from a couple of my posts on the ruby mailing list in early 2002 like http://blade.nagaokaut.ac.jp/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/38507?help-…

If the python headers were hacked it was your students, not any of us.

edit: I'll also add that Auran apologised to us profusely over the Jet hassles.

quote:Originally posted by Dragoon
So it is ethical to repeatedly bring up peoples points of views that coincide with your own regarding other institutions, as long as you don't present them as your own?

Depends on the context and the people concerened imho. In the case of Kipper much of the quote in question is largely about me so I have no problem with it. In the case of Bob he'd said "good on you" when he found out about freeplay 04. And as for CynicalFan [;)]

Edit: if you mean Chris Crawford that neat little essay (the education of a game designer) just made a lot of sense to me, and I have no problem with quoting him on sumea. It would be unethical not to have done so imho.

I got the email, but like you said, isn't it invite only? The pdf invitation that you're supposed to print out and present to get in says it's not transferrable. I didn't want to be putting that up on the main page.

That PDF is an invite to the opening. The exhibition will (afaik) be on display for 3 months or so- that's how long they are normally up for. So far all Games Lab exhibitions have been free entry.

To be completely clear: it's only the openings that are by invite only. After the opening everyone is welcome.

The openings are by RSVPd invite only for catering and budget reasons, amongst others.

In case anyone is wondering why I'm posting this and why I get these invites it's because I was on the acmipark team (selectparks). Also I've provided free tech support for acmipark for almost 2 years now.

It is well worth seeing if you are in Melbourne or visiting. This exhibition runs until December 11- 2 months. The mobile phone games are augmented reality prototypes eg I played ping pong with another person, both of us using camera phones, sitting at a special table with some calibration patterns. You use a phone button to serve, the tilt of the phone determines the angle at which you hit the ball back to your opponent.

Lots of chatting and a little alcohol means I'll be going back to try out the IGF games, but that's normal for an exhibition opening.

Hey Lorien, I think I may have met you there!

I would definately recommend [url="http://www.acmi.net.au/F2313B83671C4D808F0F45D10D9388EC.jsp"]Point and Tilt[/url] becasue I worked on the project! haha

Anyway, it was a good night and I hope everyone enjoys the exhibitions.

quote:Originally posted by miranda

Hey Lorien, I think I may have met you there!

I would definately recommend [url="http://www.acmi.net.au/F2313B83671C4D808F0F45D10D9388EC.jsp"]Point and Tilt[/url] becasue I worked on the project! haha

Anyway, it was a good night and I hope everyone enjoys the exhibitions.

Yep, that was me Miranda, hi again [:)]

someone bring a frizbee!

It's probably kind of obvious, but due to rain the BBQ has been called off. It will probably be re-scheduled for a later date though.

You should have a look around China and Asia in general. I was given a tour of most of the games training/education institutions in Hong Kong last year, as well as Cyberport http://www.cyberport-project.com.hk/home.htm

Very scary how much govt cash is being thrown at new media around Asia in general, and just have a look at South Korea, where computer games were completely illegal 5 or 6 years ago.

The english speaking issue is going away too- AFAIK every single uni student in HK has been doing intensive english for years. Tip for people lost in HK: find a young looking person and start speaking english.

As far as I can see Australia simply has no way of competing with them (long term) in the fee for service market. Population alone makes this so, let alone the big push that many Asian governments are doing.

Also these people have been making loads of games for their own markets that we never see here, my point being that there are highly experienced studios there already.

India is even more scary in some ways, they've been sending loads of students all over the world to study computing for years.

OK so this isnt the Asian market here but I did find it rather amusing. A job add I got on one of my mailing lists..

Hi all,
We are an Australian company, currently working out of Doha, the capital
city of Qatar (near Saudi Arabia)
We are designing and constructing the opening and closing ceremonies of
the 2006 Asian games, to be held here in Doha.

We need a Max 7 freelancer, with gear, to travel to Qatar, ASAP (within
the next few days)
for about 3 weeks work, possibly more.

Qatar is a safe country, with a very western lifestyle.
all flights, accomodation and transport etc will be provided.

can you please contact me offlist if you are interested.
regards,
Mike Annear

So instead of a company outsourcing from Australia to overseas people we have a complete role reversal.

To me it seems the Australian industry is growing. I am constantly hearing of possitions opening and companies expanding.

It's still a small comunity though, which is great, yet it puts out quality work. I think if the government would support the industry more we might see more original IP and great grwoth and security still. They could also help in funding start-ups, i believe there is pleanty of room for small companies and/or innovative ideas as long as your're prepared to supply most of the funding youself, and governemnt grants could greatly help with that.
Take for instance HalfBrick or Fuzzy Eyes - two very small, young companies, they prove you dont need AAA grade visuals and 100+ worker monkeys to make a game that sells.

EDIT: just reaslised that this is will probably appear to be in direct contradition with a bitch i ranted on about in an earlier post somewhere. To clarify, the other post was a bitch at the way the industry currently works, the optimisim expressed above with reguards to start ups and innovative ideas relies on going about things in a different way, i.e. self/alternative funding, targeting select markets, and other things.

Perhaps on the surface the local industry appears to be doing well, but, have you actually bothered to look below the surface of some of these companies that appear to be doing well and ?expanding??

Now, being one of those that has said that the industry is in for rough times ahead, I personally have never said that the industry is shrinking at the moment ? or that was never my intention. I believe this is to occur 6 to 12 months from now. This is when the next generation of gaming platforms ? the XBOX-360 and PS3 ? would have arrived and begun to take root ? though it could be 6 months longer if there are delays in their release.

As I have stated elsewhere, for the most part ? leaving pretty much the local studios established by international companies like Irrational Games, Pandemic Studios, Creative Assembly, etc ? do not have the know how to compete. They are years behind in technology, they are below average in product (game) design, and their production values are questionable ? resulting in low quality products for the global market. Their business and project management is also suspect and largely to blame for their failings.

Really, I don?t know why I bother to keep on repeating this stuff ? I am getting tired of doing so. To tell you the truth, I think actions speak louder than words anyway, and my words for the most part are lost on most of you.

Who knows, maybe I and others that think like me, are wrong. Maybe the Nintendo Revolution for instance, will be a platform that will be the saving grace for developers instead of another Virtual Boy ? a gimmicky utter failure.

As for the young studios doing well, one would hope so, as this is a great time of opportunity for them to do so, to grow and take root ? but try not to believe the hype out there, as old and young studios tend to all do it: spread / create hype.

I asked some VIPs late last year about all the positions that seemed to be coming up on sumea. They said it wasn't the result of expansion within their own companies, more that one particular individual had poached people from lots of studios and they were trying to fill the gaps he left. No I'm not going to mention any names at all, and this was late last year.

Publishers worldwide are consolidating more development in house, and are farming out less projects. Game development costs are going through the roof (upwards of US $50million now on console titles)l.

This is making it a lot harder for independant studios (not owned by a publisher) to get funding.

Risk is a big factor, a lot of studios don't have the man power or capacity to manage such huge projects, and publishers are taking them in house. There aren't too many huge publishers in Australia (0), so its increasingly difficult to get projects here, as for companies overseas.

I, for one, take my hat off to the CEO's locally for managing to stay in business. It's getting a lot tougher.

quote:Originally posted by Dragoon
I, for one, take my hat off to the CEO's locally for managing to stay in business. It's getting a lot tougher.

As do I to all those who do it with honesty and ethics.

I still see the majority of companies in my area expanding to support new project teams. And the others still healthily trying to hire staff to fill already existing gaps.

To my eyes it is expanding and doing well, wether it bursts in 6 months time we will just have to wait and see.

quote:Originally posted by lorien

quote:Originally posted by Dragoon
I, for one, take my hat off to the CEO's locally for managing to stay in business. It's getting a lot tougher.

As do I to all those who do it with honesty and ethics.

Lol, thats a bit nieve. By and large the game companies in Australia treat each other with respect and honesty, but then things happen and relationships go sour. It is business after all, and as long as everything is ok, people will be nice and honest, and play by the "rules". When things are not ok, people will do *anything* to keep going.

An honest publisher is an oxymoron. Enough said, and if you think otherwise you'll get screwed. Some of the things that I've heard publishers have done - well just say the mind boggles.

Don't get me wrong, I said "all" because quite a few companies have done things like apologised to people who've they stuffed around in various ways. "All" was to mean I know of quite a few good ones, and there are (I hope) plenty more I don't know about.

Others have done things that verge on outright theft then had the gall to try to hire people they annoyed without those people even applying for a job.

Some of the things studios have done boggle the mind too, but point taken about publishers...

Again there is no way I'm going to mention any names.

There are tonnes of local studios that can do this for you. Buy a copy of [url="http://www.dmw.com.au/"]Digital Media World[/url] at your local newsagent and rummage through their list of digital animation and effects studios. These studios do animation and effects for commercials, films, and games as well. For example..

[url="http://www.act3animation.com/"]Act 3 animation[/url] did the short film for Tantalus (Melbourne game developer) called Anaka.

[url="http://www.animallogic.com"]Animal Logic[/url] did the rendered stuff for Krome's Ty, the Tasmanian tiger. They did some effects on The Matrix amongst lots of other things.

Other notable studios are [url="http://www.iloura.com.au/index.html"]Iloura[/url] and [url="http://www.animagrafx.com.au"]Animagrafx[/url]. They're all versatile enough to do whatever project you throw at them, and I'm sure a Killzone 3 quality reel would be no problem. These studios probably demand big dollars for their work though.

Probably worth talking to [url="http://www.kalescentstudios.com/"]Kalescent Studios[/url] as well.

ROFL.... Love the username.

I went to QANTM and was happy on the whole with the experience. I'd recommend anyone leaving school and is serious about getting into Game Dev to apply for it.

At the top of the screen there next to the skinless guy where it says 'DEVELOPERS' - Click there.

http://www.sumea.com.au/sdevelopers.asp

Ah so it is. Much thanks.

thanks mcdrewski, didn't know we had a Dev list.

Great, good for finding the odd job for the odd bob. [8D]

One thing I've found with Sumea is that you'll stumble upon a goldmine of information that's always been there, hidden away in a link. It's a bit like finding a 'secret area' in a game.

It's so much more than a developer list though! It's a huge part of Sumea. You can go to a developers profile and find what games they've done or working on (including pics, links, comments). From there you can find all the related news posted on Sumea about that particular developer, which could include job postings, interviews, games news and updates etc. If you ever needed to know anything about a particular developer, it's a pretty good resource.

I like the fact that the expo pass is now free, it's a good way to encourage the public to come in and have a look at what's going. As a cost, even a low $15, would put people off if they have little to no interest in games, but being free means that anyone sligtly curious or with nothing better to do might have a look anyway - a nice way to help the industry grow.

i still think the delegate pass is a rip though, where there the number and quality of presentations as the GDC in the US, i'd pay that price, but AGDC is too small to justify the current price in my oppinion.

Ok, some clever person has pointed out that the conference has been shortened to 2 days now, so the prices have indeed gone up quite a bit. o_O (unless they're still working on the first day schedule? It's unlikely though since the (opening?) keynote is in the afternoon)

0.o ... if your going to increase the price of any section... why the students? Wont see you there this year guys.

Needless to say I'm not going... Being put up for sale at a conference once is quite enough thank you.

But how the hell do you people justify putting the general student price up, and letting your own students in free. Let's all subsidise the AIE some more.

I hope you people aren't going to give yourselves a stand that's 20% larger than anyone else can buy this year (they have in the past, I've been an AGDC volunteer).

A suitable reaction that springs to mind is a general boycott. NOT just non-aie students, but everyone.

Perhaps AIE staff and management need to be made completely unwelcome at freeplay too.

Hope you people enjoy making your own graduates flame you.

One more little not widely known fact about the AGDC: when I was an AIE student we got a substantial discount off the normal student prices. I think it was a special internal registration form- at least it had a special checkbox and cheaper price for AIE students. Don't know if they've still been doing it, this was 2002- the first year that Pon Chauline started organising the conference.

Lorien - go create a Why I hate AIE blog and stop taking over threads like this to go on about your chip from AIE.

You seem a little pissed-off Jacana [:D] Good. What do others think? If sumea wants me to shut up of course I will. If it's just stooges like Jacana then I won't [:)]

What do you think Souri?

As for me i'm against censoring anyone but i am curious as to why Lorien seems so pissed off at the AIE..

(Btw i'm a current student there)..just on free entry for AIE students, is that confirmed? I have not heard that but maybe i've just not been paying attention.

i think there is another thread in which lorien goes into all that. in the education section as well i think. i'm against censoring anywone aswell in most cases, though i am against insults

I can tell when I get close to the mark because Jacana starts complaining... [:)]

I think I've been on topic here, which one small deviation- the bigger stands.

You'll notice if you search through all my posts that I've never personally insulted anyone on sumea before. I've been posting here for quite a while now.

I don't hate the AIE btw. I hate sleazy, dirty business practices and dishonesty. IMHO they have both in plenty. As soon as they start behaving (and keep on behaving) in a more ethical fasion I'll have no problem with them.

One point that is of topic, but needed: Jacana accused me of hijacking this thread and ones like it. I assume she's referring to Zoot's thread "attention all game dev graduates", which is where she last complained. J.I. Styles said something about hijacking too. Zoot happens to largely agree with me, and didn't mind in the slightest [:)] I wouldn't post if I thought I was hijacking.

I can understand where both Jacana and Lorien are coming from. Lorien is however on topic), but I can understand what Jacana is saying. Try to keep it more relevent to the topic rather than steering this into another anti AIE establishment thread. There'll be no censorship here, if you want to make a thread about the AIE and write whatever you like, be my guest.
That's not to say I don't appreciate Loriens comments. I'm glad someone's bringing the issue up, but try not to steer this thread off track.

Anyway, I've recieved some facts about the AGDC pricing:

*History of Registration Prices*
2005 Early-Bird Registrations $660 (decrease of $140), Student Price $275 (first price increase since 2002)
2004 Early-Bird Registrations $800, Student Price $250
2003 Early-Bird Registrations $800, Student Price $250
2002 Early-Bird Registrations $800 (decrease of $95), Student Price $250
2001 Registration $895, Student Price $199
2000 Registration $895, Student Price $250
1999 Early-Bird Registration $375, Student $250

*Conference Duration*
For the past two years AGDC has been held for approximately 2.5 days the configuration of the half days are listed below and there is no more than 3hrs difference between them.
2003 Conference Sessions: 9am Start, 11:30 finish (Sunday)
2004 Conference Sessions: 12noon Start, 5pm Finish (Thursday)
2005 Conference Sessions: 5pm Start, 7pm Finish (Thursday)

*AIE Education Student Registrations*
As *advertised* on multiple publications by AIE Education, AIE *Education* is offering free registration for this year?s diploma of computer game development students only. AIE Education still pays registration fees to *Interactive Entertainment Events *(it is simply a benefit offered by AIE Education to their students).

*This Years Program*
Please be aware that the program on the website is still being updated with information that we are unable to divulge at this stage?So stay tuned!

I think it was $160 or thereabouts if you were an AIE student in 2002. Might have been $120. Perhaps someone else can provide the actual figure? What did AIE students pay last year?

quote:Originally posted by Jacana

Lorien - go create a Why I hate AIE blog and stop taking over threads like this to go on about your chip from AIE.

This is the EDUCATION forum, and this is a thread about AGDC prices that include discounts for people associated with a particular EDUCATIONAL organisation, that seems like a legitimate thing to complain about (as well as defend). What's the big deal?

pb

pb, you have to know Jacana. I choose my insults carefully [:)]

i think (though i'm not sure if i'm accurate) that there are also less seminars on per day this year as well. don't quote me on that though, i had a quick count earlier today at work and i think there were two or three less, though the blank spaces might yet to be filled in - though some are filled in TBA, so who knows. i'll wait until i see the full schedule before i pass judgment and buy my ticket, but at the moment i'm not liking this paying more for less business.

More onto the topic of this thread, I don't agree with the direction AGDC is going at all really. It's really not worth my money at that price for what I'm getting. One thing I feel fairly strongly about is I don't care about getting pissed at the "big party night" to hear everyones bitch about so-and-so company and I certainly don't want to see the immature actions of all the kiddies running around plastered trying to down as much as possible, to then be seen projectile vomitting outside 3 hours later. Ya know, free drinks sounds all well and good, but when people need to pay for them themselves, there's a bigger incentive to not act like a retard.

Now, I really do hate to add to the fire, but I really do agree with souri on this. Nobodies here to censor anyone, but really! I just find this whole thing rude, angry, and immature... wow. I feel dirty. It's pretty widely known that Lorien holds quite a gripe against the AIE. That's fine, you're more than entitled to your feelings views and opinions - But personally I really don't enjoy having to wade through 3 posts in a row to read about the proposed formulated plan of attack against them. Fight the system! champion your cause! Rally the troops! I don't give a shit either way to be completely honest... but I do however give a shit about bending discussions into that, personal attacks against other members, and generally flaming all over this forum. With that said, I am more than happy to see you create a thread for it. I can make one for you if you like. I just don't understand that if you're so actively against the AIE, if you so strongly feel that you haven't got what you wanted from them after nearly 4 years, then why not sue?

Heehee :)

You hit it right on the head about the piss-up JI.

I think I've made it very clear that I don't care about what the aie did to my classmates (like Sorceror Bob, a former sumea moderator) and myself. Most of us call them loads of really nasty names in private, but it's water under the bridge. Hence I haven't sued. There are other reasons, which I'm not about to put up on sumea, not because they reflect on me at all, but because having them out in public would do much more harm than good.

What I do care about is everyone getting a fair go. Strangely enough that seems to be exactly what the AIE don't want- hence these dirty tricks.

As graduates, many of us tell prospective students to go anywhere else. This includes some graduates they quote in marketing material.

I feel rather insulted by Jacana, I don't see you telling her off.

Good to see you sticking up for the little people the AIE and games industry stomps on btw.

Edit: If you'd prefer I'd be fine with flaming in the national media with copies sent to DEET, MMV, and my local MP [:)]

quote:
More onto the topic of this thread, I don't agree with the direction AGDC is going at all really. It's really not worth my money at that price for what I'm getting. One thing I feel fairly strongly about is I don't care about getting pissed at the "big party night" to hear everyones bitch about so-and-so company and I certainly don't want to see the immature actions of all the kiddies running around plastered trying to down as much as possible, to then be seen projectile vomitting outside 3 hours later. Ya know, free drinks sounds all well and good, but when people need to pay for them themselves, there's a bigger incentive to not act like a retard.

[?] Going to get pissed with other developers and getting gossip on all the companies is my favourite part! Personally its the one millionth presentation on how to do path-finding/shadows/pixel-shaders/blah or worse still, sessions about why ATI/Nvidia/Whoever kick arse (disguised as some technical session) or even another boring whine about our game ratings system (there's no R, its inconsistent, OK, we know) that I find myself not caring about.

pb

Pete, I think I'd like to meetup next time I'm in Sydney or you're in Melbourne... [:)]

Edit: interesting that there didn't seem to be much behaving like idiots or throwing up at the last two free booze events at freeplay don't you think?

Lol the only guy I saw actually puking up was an actuall Game Developer. Atari's Qa Manager / Lead / Tester ( one of them ) during the small party held in the actuall events hotel lounge. The staff were most pleased.

[:)]

I am holding out untill the list of lectures is final before I make my decision. Dont mind if I miss the early bird.... that ole student card is good till december [;)]

exactly what i'm waiting for as well. The student price may have gone up, but that's only by a little bit, what i'm most annoyed at is the massive reductions in the schedule, creating a far greater price hike than the small raise in fees. but i've already been over that, so i wont go into it again (even though, well, i just did). either way i am not likly to go to AGDC again if this trend continues. the GDC seems like much better value (albeit at a greater total cost) - or even just buying the GDC audio files on cd!

Don't forget they've changed to what is likely a cheaper venue too. Jeff's shed (the melbourne convention centre, named after former premier Jeff Kennet) is probably the priciest venue in town. "Federation square" is a rather vague venue btw, it includes ACMI, SBS, a tourist info centre, a bar, a cafe, a 7-11, and a few other things. Where is the conference actually going to be? I think it's safe to assume it won't be the 7-11... [:)] How much does the venue cost? How much did Jeff's Shed cost?

As announced to GDAA members recently, the GDAA will run it's own conference in 2006. The GDAA remains supportive of the AGDC for 2005.

The GDAA does not exclude anyone. The GDAA welcomes new members and member companies and has consistently put this view. I would encourage all to join, have some input, and help support our industry.

I hope this response may clear up some misconceptions in this thread and elsewhere.

Cheers,

Ross.

Perhaps you would like to plainly explain the financial relationship between the GDAA, AIE, MF and AGDC for us all? Where did my AIE student fees (I was on a partial scholarship) that were given to the GDAA go?

I find it interesting to note that the first GDC was held in Chris Crawfords's living room. The first AGDC was held in a casino. I haven't been to the GDC, but to me it illustrates something about the character of the AGDC. I was at the first one in Sydney in 1999.

What sort of venue will this new conference be in?

As a former AIE student I've been a GDAA sponsor haven't I? Answers please.

Well, well, what is this !? Are we to believe that the dinosaurs have changed or just changed their outward appearance ? And what has brought this need for change in the GDAA exactly ? Do the dinosaurs smell their looming extinction on the horizon, is that perhaps the case ?

Anyhow, does this mean that we are to have 3 conferences next year, the AGDC, Free Play and another sponsored by the GDAA ? Or does this mean the death of the AGDC, and the birth of something new, or under the guise of being something new to throw the critics and cynics off your scent ?

And what is this new conference to be, real collaborative discussion, or a dressed up trade show where companies market themselves to local and international developers and publishers ? An attempt to push and keep Australia a fee-for-service development region in the face of reason and long-term sustainability ? the stubbornness of an aging order to face reality and the overwhelming need for change.

Anyway, there is something else I would like to say on this thread and that is that I have no problems whatsoever with Lorien saying what is on his mind and stating his opinions. At least he has the courage to do so unlike the spineless majority that either say nothing or go along with status-quo.

It is also refreshing when someone states their opinions without having it sound like some kind of hippy ?we can all learn to work together? and ?let?s not rock-the-boat? crap that just makes me want to throw-up, as I find it all very shallow in effect, that leads to nothing other than more of the same.

quote:Originally posted by lorien

As a former AIE student I've been a GDAA sponsor haven't I? Answers please.

If the AIE chose to sponsor the GDAA it is a long bow to suggest that all students automatically become members or sponsors of the GDAA.

It is key that people understand the difference between the GDAA and the group of companies AIE, MF, and AGDC. I am not related or in any way responsible for the latter three, I am currently on the board of the GDAA.

The rules and regulations of the GDAA are on the website, it is transparent and there for all to see. If you want things changed at the GDAA then join and vote, as said, and despite the unwarranted sniping of the GDAA here, all are welcome and are encouraged to join.

Seriously, this news is a very positive move.... I hope that people here have good ideas to share on what they want to see in a conference.

Cheers,

Ross.

weather AGDC or Freeplay or something else, i think Australia needs an anual games conference. Australia has a fast growing industry capable of high quality work. A conference where people can share experience and ideas is vital to the continued growth. Personally i think it should be independant and non-profit, if it's commecially minded or run and funded by a particular games company or education institute then you run the risk of it having priorities other than the continued growth and development of the industry.

Best wishes for Katharine. She's been a huge part of Free Play and the organisers are going to have to find someone extraordinary to conitnue what she's done.

Katharine is far too modest. Freeplay is a very small part of the things she's done for everyone- though most people don't know much of it at all because she just doesn't tell anyone [:)]

She's been described as "one in a million" by a project manager in the aus film industry.

Given the contents of the Quality of Life whitepaper I suggest that doing a game-specific course (be it at uni or college) as an undergrad is not the brightest of ideas.

Normally when this topic comes up Yusuf Pisan and myself like to point people at Chris Crawford's comments (he's the guy who founded the GDC, amongst many other things) http://www.erasmatazz.com/library/Game%20Design/The_Education_of_a_Game…

I have to say that the biggest mistake of my uni career was *not* picking the computer graphics subject when I could. At the time I talked to people and heard how simplistic it was and thought I'd get better use out of something else.

I still kick myself. It's not about what you learn in the subject but the doors it opens in your knowledge of how things work.

Not sure if you were replying to me mcdrewski, or just making a general comment. If the former I said "course", not subject.

I've always found that while Chris Crawford is certainly an game design genius, he is also an arrogant tosser who has an opinion on everything who lables his rantings as the "truth" rather than another considered opinion.

There are huge number of holes in his argument and if I get a spare couple of hours I would love to counter them one by one. However one statement really pisses me off: quote:Get a real job at a real company and earn some money

I had several 'real' jobs before I got a job at a games company (suprise, suprise - even before uni) and now that I'm in the industry I still have a real job that pays real money. This is what I'm doing now and I love it, but I can't say I'll be doing it in 10 years. Not because of quality of life issues (which is not a factor at this or MOST other Oz games companies, IMO) but becase there are heaps of things I want to learn and do in my life.

My advice would be if you really want a job in games you would be stupid to go and study literature, history, psychology and linguistics as Chris advocates. Long term you will appreciate their value but short term you probably will not appreciate their value and not get the most out of them. We have been told for the last 10 years that we should expect to have 5-10 different careers in our lifetime (unlike the 1-2 careers of the babyboomers). Instead what you will end up with is a HECS debt of $30k and a degree that qualifies you to post meaningless things on forums such as this and not much else.

If you're into games- go for it! Go to the experts like AIE, Qantm, Murdoch and the others that have specialist education programs. I wasted alot of my time at uni on meaningless subjects that I had to do (to fulfill degree requirements) that were boring, out of date, have never used and will not work at a place that does.

I don't use my degree at all, but try and get through US immigration without one.

Doesn't matter if the college is a P.O.S and the course sucked.... ok it would but the point is the real benefit you gain from these courses is you get to dive into a pool of people that have exactly the same interests and ambitions as you.... to be a games developer.

These are the people you most learn from as you drive each other on. Its also these people who will be your primary source of contacts for the rest of your life as they secure employment inside. Its a proven fact that most jobs go unadvertised and go to friends of staff members.

The thing that most irks me is when people blame the uni for their lack of getting a job.( Oh i didnt get a job cause my uni never taught me bump mapping - BAH )... So by all means go to one of these places. If you find they dont offer something you want to know use their resources, team up with some other students and learn it yourself.

I can happily rattle off 10 things i hated about QANTM and what "I" thought they should have done better, but if I could go back would I do it again... Damn straight i would.

hmmm kinda gets off the point of the topic I know... heck doesnt matter if you go to a uni or a games college. Final result will still be decided by you.

Everybody these days goes into game courses, whatever happened to the good old fashioned learn it your self technique...

I spent over a year stressing about this question!

After I finished my games diploma I decided to work for a year before continuing on to uni ? to set myself up financially etc. Over this time I debated endlessly over whether to continue my studies in a games specific (animation) course, or to do a more general course. In the end I decided to go with creative industries at QUT as it offers a much broader spectrum of study for my various interests.

I decided that in the end, the most valuable skills for game development would be the ones I learn on my own regardless of what course I study. Since I?ll be teaching myself game art anyway (because I enjoy it so much), I figured I?d be better off spending my time at uni studying a variety of subjects as well as animation. By the time I finish studying, my animation skills should be at a professional level, but at the same time I will be qualified for a variety of professions.

Plus there?s the fact that if I did an animation degree, I would pretty much have to graduate at or near the top of the course to get a decent job at the end of it all. While I would love nothing more then to spend 2 years studying nothing but animation, I just feel I would be narrowing my prospects down far too much.

Like many games professionals have said, at the end of the day it?s your skills that matter, not your qualification. So if your going to develop the skills in your own time anyway, why not get a qualification that can open more doors then a single industry?

At least that?s the conclusion I eventually came to. Plus I?ve already got a diploma in games development. Of course different study paths work differently for each individual. I just think, why put all your eggs in one basket?

Having said all that, right now I wish I were doing ?Intro to character rigging? instead of ?Management, People and Organisations? [:P] - Can?t wait for the animation units next year!

quote:Originally posted by the_geeves


There are huge number of holes in his argument and if I get a spare couple of hours I would love to counter them one by one.

I think there are also a number of good points. I certainly don't agree with all of it though.

quote:
Instead what you will end up with is a HECS debt of $30k and a degree that qualifies you to post meaningless things on forums such as this and not much else.

[:)] I seem to have hit a bit of a nerve. Nothing personal. I do a lot more than post btw.

quote:
If you're into games- go for it! Go to the experts like AIE, Qantm, Murdoch and the others that have specialist education programs.

Should point out I'm an grad of one of these places, amongst other things [:)]

quote:
I wasted alot of my time at uni on meaningless subjects that I had to do (to fulfill degree requirements) that were boring, out of date, have never used and will not work at a place that does.

I now wish I'd paid more attention to things I didn't think would be important at the time.

Don't knock "Management, People and Organisation", that one will help you out... ever considered being a producer... ;)

I read what you say but I thought my self most what I know
But I will say this it has it advantages and disadvantages

I wanted to design a game , I went from ideas to mapping and 3dsmax
Im very good in doom3ed and uted 3,but ppl don?t realy seem interested in that fact

They all want a peace of paper
Or experience
1 is easy to get but I dislike maya and apple mac
apple has crap interface and maya is crapist 3d application iv ever used.
but in some fields you get what you could not get any ware else

experience you have to know some 1 as is only way in the door really

so 1 can look at it like this 1 has to be proactive and make opportunities
even if that means doing what you dislike to get what you like

personally I can draw up a map as good as any id soft mapper in doom3 ed
so for my self I will draw up levels for my own game as I can
and then approach id soft??.but it be nice if some 1 at id soft took me now
and helped me mature in a guided environment rather than some thing wild
so I can reach my full potential faster ..but then im a dreamer

That was hard to read...

Why dont you show us your stuff?
It will give you good exposure, thats if you are as good as you say you are.

quote:Originally posted by Makk

That was hard to read...

Why dont you show us your stuff?
It will give you good exposure, thats if you are as good as you say you are.

ok but what to show i cant show you mutch
but i do have some junk you can look at i post links here
all doom3 ed .brb
edit
ok i just had a quick flick to many files to look threw
here are a few snap shots i took...and if you know any thing about mapping you will be imprest with my brush and patch work
also in the making my skill has matured some what
http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=13802980&selected=
http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=13802800&selected=
http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=13802799&selected=
http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=13802798&selected=
http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=13802797&selected=
http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=13802796&selected=

quote:Originally posted by Marty

Dude, don't hide behind external wireframe shots etc.

Show me 1 shot, in game, from the players perspective. The closest we saw was an unlit staircase floating in space.

Waiting.. [:)]

Marty

ok..ye steps were just in jig map no walls floor but still looked good :P brb

edit ok
http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=13805502&selected=

http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=13805501&selected=

still working on above

this is off some thing id like to film still working on this as well
but wow just used sword off shot gun all the way and ye wow
http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=13805501&selected=
[:0][;)]
http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=13805589&selected=

Im getting A red X on all of these shots, is anyone else?

Yeah, I'm just getting ye red X on each 1.

1 has to 1der wat thay wil look like...

Funny how off topic this has gone :)

Your stuff is ok, if a little underdetialed.
But if you really think you got the skills to get a job then you need to work harder and selling yourself.
Posting your work on various forums is a good way of getting yourself out there for starters.

...er, yeah, no offence, but you have a long way to go before you can start spouting that your work is id quality...

quote:Originally posted by Rahnem

...er, yeah, no offence, but you have a long way to go before you can start spouting that your work is id quality...

I think if you read those were all under construction?
Iv moved on from them most maps are old
But ye it takes a long time to achieve the end result
Skill wise im already there im a gifted level designer
But im no good at code so my let down
But hy what programmers for
Just a pity all my floors could not be ironed out with
The right training by the right person im sic of the paddle pool that will drowned any talent if left in to long

<.< hate to simplify it down.. But really captain Tylor's quote suits this best.

"DO WHAT YOU WANT, THE WAY YOU WANT TO "

Chances are if your a smart and creative guy you'll evensially get in.. At what speed you get in is a different matter?

Take my example:

I wanna be a game designer... Do I currently have skills good enough to get in? I'd love to think so, but really.. No!

I'd love to attend the AIE just to meet some guys who love games and that are creative.. I know quite well my folio is good enough to get in to that at least. but do I have $20,000 to give to an organization over two years? .. nope.

Is there a magical course that exists for a game designer that *chuckles* guaranties to show you the skills needed to get into the industry... no!

So what will I do.. I have two options as I see it.

I could take a bath and then spend a year whinging that the world around me isn't fair and that the industry is working against me... that I?m the Monolith of all novice designers and that the other 200 around Australia are below me..

That?s the easy way.

OR!!!
I could finish my year 12.
Spend 6 months at home teaching myself.. I own unreal 2004 therefore I have access to level building software.. Why not make a transformer FPS mod based around the Cybertron wars?
Why not make a few flash cartoons integrating 2D with 3D methods of animation.. i have a big ass light table.. I?ll teach myself.. i have the internet, biggest learning resource on the planet.
Why not write up a 100-page game design document? (That I?ve already done ^^ )
Why not draw up some storyboards?

That?s the hard way.. Hard because I?m not paying someone to feed info into me.(not that that?s a bad thing.. its just costly) Therefore I?m flying blindly. HOWEVER!

I?m doing what I want to do.. and I?m doing it by my choice..

I strongly erge everyone to do what you want to. wether it be AIE.. UNI.. Or Self teaching.

Not all these things are totally relevant to game design.. But they are "cool" and i think that?s something we should all work towards. The "cool" and "fun" factor.

BTW.. I got a reply back from pandemic.. This is what they said.

<>

And there damm right. From this I?ve learned something new. NOT WHINGED!! ..

.. Time to pull out Unreal ED and really put my money where my maw is!! WOOYA!

Caroo: Three cheers mate [:)] Nail on the ****** head! Realising and understanding that your works not all as good as you think it is is pretty much 90 % of the way to getting to the point where it actually is [;)]

quote:Originally posted by Marty

ohhhh, i get it. It's all a joke. You're not serious are.. you..u-die?

erm.. did a search on amateur level designers doing Doom 3 stuff, clicked on this first random link.

http://francoiscogne.free.fr/site_map-factory/mf.php?Page=doom3&Map=9&T…

I think your goal is to probably start with being half as good as this guy? *shrug*

Marty

Please if that pic is any of his work ye is not even 2% as good as I am . i do like lighting...This little bit of screen is more complex than that screen shot
http://uk.msnusers.com/acidDrean/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=…

Most those pics you saw were from my first doom 3 map
I think you do not realize ill put 1 more pic up and its in wire frame
Realize the complexity that map no offence to mapper is to insult me

Oh I did uted3 as well some pics 2
d3 http://uk.msnusers.com/acidDrean/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=…

uted3
http://uk.msnusers.com/acidDrean/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=…
http://uk.msnusers.com/acidDrean/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=…
It sounds like im trying to brag im not I need to get threw door even if I have t go threw key hole as I have matured as a maper and im just a wais when I could be an important
Factor in a company

just for fun
time is 10.18 pm i will make coffee and re do that dudes pic and post pic here just as it will not take long but ill add railings witch can take some time

i think this is how it go's any way 10.54
http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=13818982&selected=

11.13
http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=13819037&selected=

12.37 realy dislike roe lost at least 20 min with bs!
http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=13819416&selected=

I actually gave up reading your post u-die, simply becuase your grammer and spelling is so bad it hurt to read it.
You dont have to be perfect, but at least make an effort to communicate properly.

Hey Caroo, well said :)
THough I dont think self teaching is all that hard, though I can only speak for the art side of things. You just gotta be focused and dedicated to sticking it out (same with most things in life, eh!). Hanging around art forums, getting your work critiqued and sucking up all the knownlodge you can from things like tutorials, articles, other people artwork etc you and you can really, really far.

hmm i draw i don?t care if my words mean nothing
2.15
http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=13819940&selected=
any way at 32 i find it stupid if i cant progress past all the little geeks who worry about spelling and grammar ..

edit ..is still lots to do but as they say don?t touch another mampers maps
http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=13820888&selected=
[;)]

U-die: Youve got to be kidding - like marty said 'this is a joke'. And If your serious, I have to be blunt (this judgement is based on what I see) but your level design work is borderline junior level. I think its important you realise this.

If not well what else can we say - post away your masterpieces in all their glory. But refrain from personal attacks. I happen to like geeks, they are my friends.

what ever if you in a new Zealand or oz company i cant take you seriously,
i can construct most complex levels and yes what you can see ,i will not put my better work up on the web as peoples eyes steal

to blunt with you i do believe my levels are not up to scratch and that?s why i say i need some 1 there to show me the way as i can excel at incredible speed.
drawing out my head might be my pit fall but i see it as a strength.
you seem to think im show boating but i was looking for the next level
and the person that realizes that and shows me the way can only benefit

at end of day my levels will always be just unperfected as i miss polish only a polisher could give me ..this is my point and always has been

and no i want post my picks here i never will in gallery
and it was never my intention any way
i don?t need people to think im good i know i am

I don?t think u-die is joking, I think u-die is trolling.

Don?t feed the trolls, especially 32-year-old ones that claim they don?t need to communicate better then primary school level because they know how to draw.

I think it?s really unfortunate that some illiterate and egotistical troll has destroyed an interesting thread that had the potential to help people with a common and important life decision.

quote:Originally posted by palantir

I don?t think u-die is joking, I think u-die is trolling.

Don?t feed the trolls, especially 32-year-old ones that claim they don?t need to communicate better then primary school level because they know how to draw.

I think it?s really unfortunate that some illiterate and egotistical troll has destroyed an interesting thread that had the potential to help people with a common and important life decision.

It shows how week you are
Get a back bone

Any thx to mapper who made the original I enjoyed making this

http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=13825818&selected=

quote:
i can construct most complex levels and yes what you can see ,i will not put my better work up on the web as peoples eyes steal

at end of day my levels will always be just unperfected as i miss polish only a polisher could give me ..this is my point and always has been

From what I've seen from the level designers I've worked with, it's (relatively) easy to throw together a complicated level that's unpolished. It's hard to make the level flow well and to be evenly balanced for multi-play, and to be exploit-proof. It's then even harder to polish it to production quality. However once it's there, there's normally a jaw-dropping "wow" factor.

If you're serious about being as good as pro level designers in id/epic/valve/"cool-company-of-the-week" then focus on details and polish.

And in Hazard's defence - do some research. What makes you think his "new Zealand or oz company" is not responsible for big chunks of the levels or art in id/epic/valve/"cool-company-of-the-week"'s next game? Did you realise you were insulting a potential employer with AAA experience as a geek that you can't take seriously?

Kalescent does outsourcing. That means they could be working for ANY company ANYWHERE in the world right now. And they probably are.

http://www.villagephotos.com/viewpubimage.asp?id_=13826606&selected=
this was looking good but I found a week point in my lighting skills and
I think I should spend more time in this area

well if a blew a bridge up :O
won?t be the first

If there were any bad things to say about any of these companies I'm sure we will see some alias names appear [:)]

All have their good and bad points, but what might be a good point to one person might a negative to another, it all depends on the type of games you want to be involved with and what you expect to get out of it.

Obviously one hears a lot of stories over the years about which companies are great to work for and which ones aren't, but it would be bad form to discuss the pros and cons of those studios you've mentioned on this forum... that's what fatbabies is for.

Yeah, it totally depends on what's important to you. Do you prefer working on PC or on the consoles? How important is money to you (and do you care if you don't get paid on time very often)? Would you prefer to work with dedicated hard working people or would you prefer to take 2+ hour lunches at the pub with people who don't care? Do you get more satisfaction from what you work on yourself or from the whole team's final result? If you're a coder do you prefer to work on the engine or on the game? What kind of game do you want to make anyway? Do you like to hang out with people who discuss games all day or would you prefer a hole in the head if it will save you from having to hear about World of Warcraft again? Do you want a game studio atmosphere or would you prefer an IT company that happens to make games? Do you like to have access to the internet (Seriously, I know of one company that doesn't let their employees use the internet during work hours, even senior people).

In short there's no simple answer. Besides, companies change over time, they get better, worse, better again, different projects and people move through them, they get bought and sold, all sorts of stuff happens. In the end just pick one that looks OK and don't let yourself get stuck there if you don't like it and find yourself unable to change things.

pb

I know everything is relative. I'm not asking what it's like to work in the games industry in general. I'm more curious about personal experiences about these individual companies. I'm not asking which company is best. Just if you have worked for one of these companies, or have had a mate who worked for them, what the experience was like.

Things like(I'm stealing from your list here pb):

* Is money a constant issue?
* Can your boss say no to a feature that will kill the schedule?
* Are the people dedicated and hard working, or constant beery lunches? (The occasional beery lunch is acceptable)
* Do you have internet - no scratch that. I guess that if you don't have internet then you can't see this. ;-)
* Are you asked to work overtime? No overtime? No weekends and 12 hour days for 6 months crazy overtime?
* Do people like the game that they are making?
That sort of stuff.

BenStride, I suggest you get out and do some investigating yourself.

sorry to give you another useless answer, but I think it needs to be said that if you talk one on one with people you'll find that the majority have had bad experiances; however, you'll also find that these are the people that also know how damaging it is to their own career to openly talk about that -- the australian industry is a sardine can, it's small, cramped, incestuous, and everyone knows everyone. That's why people don't openly talk about much in public, even the good things. The smart people have learnt that it's best to simply not even get close to politics, but only accept the best conditions for themselves, which I'm sure is why you're wanting to gain this information so you can make a good decision for yourself.

again, apologies for talking around your question, but I honestly think it'd be best if you talked directly to those companies and asked them straight up, "what are the perks of working at your company", and never be afraid of asking, "what do you think is the worst or weakest part about working for your company" - employers constantly ask that same loaded question in interviews, so don't be afraid to ask it right back. If they can't give you a satisfactory answer then there's really not much point working for them.

That's no problem. Thanks for the info.

if your are a nice and good person, you would probably find working at any of those companies very pleasent.

* Is money a constant issue?

There's generic wage expectations in the industry, you can view the salary survey done here a few years ago. Really it's all subjective to demand, experience.

Good piece of advice is if you aren't being paid what you're worth in the industry, don't take the job. There's plenty of other companies to choose from where you should be able to get a realistic salary expectation.

If you join a company on probation, make sure in your contract your salary is reflective of "probation salary" and ask for a %5-10 increase after offer of continuation as a permanent.

* Can your boss say no to a feature that will kill the schedule?

They can always do that. If you strongly believe the feature is essential then document an argument for your cause. Bring it up once, bring it up a second time and then leave it alone.

* Are the people dedicated and hard working, or constant beery lunches? (The occasional beery lunch is acceptable)

Beery lunches are essential part of the games industry! Making sure it doesn't interfere with deadlines and being professional is part of the responsibility of engaging in the beery lunch experience!

* Are you asked to work overtime? No overtime? No weekends and 12 hour days for 6 months crazy overtime?

Pretty much all game companies have some overtime requirements. such is the way of scope creep, problems, schedule changes..etc. An excessive amount of overtime = bad management. I would be hesitant staying with a company which had no weekends, 12 hour days for 6 months. I wouldn't expect the company to last long either.

* Do people like the game that they are making?

Sometimes you don't like the games you make, but you can still be passionate about making whatever you input into the game the best it can be. It's like any job there's parts of it you just don't like sometimes. Of course, if you're with a company which you don't enjoy making the type of games they do, then look for another company which does do the type of games you do. You'll perform better and feel better about spending your 12 hour days and no weekends :)

Surely making games would have to be better than cleaning toilets for the rest of your life? [:p]

To a large extent I think the games industry mirrors the film industry more and more with each passing year. As such I think you will find that the large AAA titles will continue to be the most pushed and sold a lot of them will be generic and safe pap, however I think you will find that indy developers will be able to make a small market for themselves just as independent film does. And the occasional indy project coming up with something new and innovative enough and ?now? enough that it makes a mint (Blair witch esk). At which point AAA titles will assimilate the idea and start churning out generic clones. Rinse and repeat.

Pantmonger

I'm hardly an expert.. but as i see ONE of the many things that COULD happen:

Things will only get more tighter and tighter in the industry until talent intake becomes an "elitist only".. Those who cannot get in will start up there own schools and Indy projects. 1 in 20 of them will succeed. Developers will continue to get screwed over until 2009 when the PS4 comes out and budgets will be too expensive for anyone (yes even EA) to manage.

The only ?real? survivors will be Sony and Microsoft and a few developers who have a good deal of luck and self funding..

Australia will be.. With the exception of 4 studios will totally be out of the games picture.

After all that pain. The whole industry will implode.. Most companies will dissolve and hopefully.. If we all learn from our mistakes we can start anew..

Of course.. This is all speculation and thoric bullcrap!! Maybe things wont be so bad.. This is based off the animation industry.. Did you know we used to have a Hanna-Babera studio here? Know we have.. well? nothing to our name. Not even Disney.

Maybe...
(what a bitch whinge XD)

In short.. AAA titles for now.. but nothing lasts forever!

Ahh yes, this debate, it's been a bit of a nuisance in the US lately from what i can tell of various websites, and I?ve noticed a few thread on sumea over the past few months relating to these sort of issues.

My opinion is it sucks balls. Big time. The over emphasis on the next great thing in computing power and graphics has more cons that pros. Our games look great (or have the potential to look great I should say) and can become more and more visually and aesthetically immersive ? which is great, and I look forward to playing such titles and to be amazed by them. But the price for this is terrible! Development costs and team sizes are skyrocketing ? despite what epic might say about small teams etc - though they are right to do so with their tech, but that wont last forever, not once gamers want every shirt, can and pebble to be unique and modeled in minute detail ? no amount of toolsets will eliminate the need for more artist to get the content done in the first place before it even reaches the tools.
Thus we move into the big budget =low risk = low innovation = same old same old debate. So the smaller companies will triumph right? Yeah, maybe a few, but when you have the big budgets speeding millions to make the visuals and content loads higher quality than everyone else, and giants like EA buying out all the IP and sports and movie licenses and marketing everyone else to the corner or right off the shelves ? who?s gonna by the little indi title? Who?s going to know about it? Yeah, a few core gamers that look for that sort of thing, but not the casual gamer who sees the pretty pictures on the box in the center shelf and says ?wow, from my limited knowledge of games and willingness to be sucked into the advertising campaigns, this looks good! Hell, it looks much better than those titles on the bottom shelf with the second rate visuals and no big licenses?.

So the indi?s might sell a few, and they might survive because of that, but they may never earn enough to put their ideas into a big title ? nor will any published want to risk a big title with new ideas.

And why does this piss me off? Because as much as I enjoy and will continue to buy the next big AAA title, I also want to play new and innovative titles. Games the likes of which I have never played before. And I don?t want them to be plagued by cut backs and silly bugs simply because they weren?t allotted the budget to finish it like a AAA title.
And nor do I want the cost of games to rise because of rising development costs ? we pay to much already and one reason I don?t by many games, particularly short or unknown games, is because they cost so much. I would try out as many unknown titles as I could, but $100 is a lot for something I might not like. It?s not like a movie I can pick up for 20 bucks. Thus I mostly only buy titles I have either done a lot of research into, or it?s from a dev that I particularly enjoy. And I?m sure there are millions of others of like mind.

And finally, my biggest gripe: one day in the future I hope to move into design, perhaps eventually make my own ?dream game?, as I?m sure we all would like to do. But the problem with that is in the word ?future? ? the further into the future we got the more and more likely it I?ll ill be on an production line pumping our some random asset for a game I don?t even know for EA?s next round of sports titles. And the if I ever get to do any design ? what?s the chance that I?ll get to do any cool idea of my own. Most likely it will be ?here are the publishers pre-approved design ideas, assemble and submit?, in which case I would rather not be doing it at all.

/end doom say

Of course that?s just a very dark, extreme view of the future, and I don?t think it will get as bad as all that, at least I hope not.

A different perspective on this, and something I have thought about alot over the past year is the following:

10 years ago, the games were pixellated messes, the gamer hoping to start a career in games could start of learning to write some basic code, or push some pixels around to achieve what they needed. It was essentially starting from a place very low to the ground, and at that stage the distance from ground to greatness, was not so far.

Nowadays, should someone wish to get into a career in games, most likely they hold and have no interest in creating something that is so close to the ground. And rightly so, as the distance to greatness is so much further away from that starting point, it puts them in a position of eternal catchup. Ie they will never be amonst the big boys if thats where they wish to be.

Im not quite sure what the best solution is for this as technology continues to grow, the entry level position requires knowledge of far greater things. Its really that simple.

10 years ago no games programmer would have been working on realtime deep water wave simulation or atomic level phsyics for game objects - nor would they have ever needed this knowledge to make something thats was right near the top end of things.

A classic example of this was when i had a discussion lately with my father, who some 15 years ago built and programmed 2 computers by himself, he wrote his own language and soldered and built each component, he was quite renowned on a small scale for doing so and featured in a couple of magazines way back when. But soon after he quit programming altogether to persue a career in Aeronuatical communication. Just recently i asked him - why dont you get back into programming - games are big you know you might need to brush up on your skills though... so i sent him some phsyics and water pixel shading stuff, along with some really advanced HDRI / SSS, Water simulation stuff and his reply was simply :

" Jesus christ what the hell do you want here, a Programmer or a f**kin scientist? "

And after laughing heartily - I realised the depth of his somewhat comical reply. My old man was right.

In 10-15 years time, when games are simulating reality in every way, the master games programmers of today, will essentially be, Scientists, Geologists, Phycologists, Physisists etc etc etc all rolled into one ( not quite! but basically ). Ultimately you have in one way or another, someone or a team of people who essentially are the backbone for recreating a life simulation. And in oder to achieve this you need someone, or a team of people with that knowledge - which can only have been achieved through years and years and years of experience and study.

Where now does that leave little timmy who wants to be a top games programmer or artist. No longer is the distance from ground zero to greatness a few weeks of programming and a few weeks or even days of drawing up some 16 x 16 pixel block men. It has become "I have to learn to write realtime fluid dynamics, I need to learn to write physics interation between objects down to an atomic level or, I need to know how the human muscles function in order to be able to recreate these things realistically, i need to know exactly how these animals move in real life, how their bones move and what they look like in all extremes.

Ultimately the point I guess im trying to make is, no longer is it plausible to enter at ground zero *IF* and i say *IF* you wish to be near the top of the games industry.

Although making basic games usually associated with the indy development side of things, can still bring you money, if thats what your after.

If you do want to be up with the best, but currently are happy to make basic games and push pixels around on a screen like they did 10 - 15 years back to hopefully to give yourself some firm grounding in 'the games industry' and work your way up, your kidding yourself - your giving yourself some firm grounding in the games industry as it was 10 - 15 years ago and thus putting yourself 10 - 15 years behind.

You need to get up to speed with whats happening right now, and beyond whats happenign right now.
Decide what your end goal is to be, and forge your path to suit, no matter which direction, game design/ art/ code /QA. Its all the same. It comes down to whether you want to be right up in amongst the best of the best making games that have 30 million + budgets or making games for free or for a few bucks and releasing them on the net for some personal satisfaction on a 'less grand' scale.

Whatever the decision is - the more time spent hovering around unsure, the more time others are leaving you behind. Make up your mind, grab the bastard by the horns and ride it till its dead.

AAA is not the only way, and indy is not the only way. The only way is the one you make for yourself.

What can one man do against the might of EA you ask ?

Answer: Plenty.

What will become to the games industry, when as Hazard said, people wont even bother learning the basics, wont even care about actually making games, more just as becoming a corporate tool for large-scale development? And most importantly, people who genuinely want to make fun games, will be deterred by the state of the commercial industry in general, since who wants to be a shit-kicking employee for the next big licensed release for sub-par pay?

Bring on overtime and Madden 20065609340693!

www.farmergnome.com

I have to say excellent post HazarD!

Basically it just boils down to people becoming ever more specialised and educated for making games. Where as 10-15 years ago you could have one or two people making a game, with both doing art and programming (just take a read of some of the "old timer" games credits, Richard Garriot, Peter Molyneux (sp?), Sid Meier - they made the whole game almost themselves) you now need a team of 20-30 or so in total, each contributing but one small thing to the game.

This is evident because we now used 3rd party game engines, 3rd party physics and sound libraries, 3rd party (or contract) art assets.

In short I believe that the people making games will only get more and more specialised, and whatever they cannot do they can get some 3rd party to do it for them.

Agreed, excellent post HazarD [:)]. It also leads on rather well from points Yusuf and I been making for quite a while now, which are very similar to the sorts of points that Chris Crawford made in his really neat paper "The Education of a Computer Game Designer" http://www.erasmatazz.com/library/Game%20Design/The_Education_of_a_Game…

Your dad sounds a lot like mine btw HazarD.

Another in agreement of an excellent post HazarD :)

I also agree that jobs within the industry are becoming a lot more specialised, especially as the trend to outsource content continues to grow... my own business is living proof that there is now plenty of scope for niche companies to go about their business and mix it with some of the largest developers/publishers in the world.

I believe that we're experiencing some quite exciting times right now that are full of opportunities. Of course there is the usual weeding out process that always occurs with the transition from one generation of hardware to the next, but that is healthy for the industry... it gets rid of the trash so-to-speak.

As far as AAA titles being the only way to go? I think every developer who values themselves as an innovator and is serious about building a solid business with security for their employees, should be aiming for big budget AAA work.

quote:As far as AAA titles being the only way to go? I think every developer who values themselves as an innovator and is serious about building a solid business with security for their employees, should be aiming for big budget AAA work.

Why? Why does a developer HAVE to do AAA games to provide a solid business / security?

Developing AAA games is not a measure of success, it's simply a measure of capability and budget.

There is room for both AAA and smaller budget titles they both meet different needs and target different markets.

Take company PopCap games for example. They do not do AAA games, yet they are considered a successful, stable business with security for their employees! They've found their own place in the market and are very successful.

Hey groovytone, I never said it was a measure of success or capabilities and of course there is room for both. I'm only speaking from my own personal experience, and it's a fact that we get a far higher level of job security from working on AAA titles than from anything else, and the reason why we won't accept anything else.

Having this attitude might sound elitist but think of it like this, if you become partners with publishers/developers who only produce big budget AAA games, chances are they'll be around longer and spend a lot more on development than those who choose to produce budget games. It can also lead to opportunities that might otherwise be very difficult to obtain.

On the other hand I realise that it's close to impossible to jump straight into game development and expect to land a AAA deal, but one thing I do know is that it can become a vicious cycle for devs who get stuck in the budget title routine to escape from if they ever want to have a chance at scoring a large budget contract, I've seen it happen time afer time.

Of course there's absolutely nothing wrong with developing moderately budgeted games, there's obviously a lot more studios producing non-AAA games than those who do, and some are extremely successful.

Im in complete agreeance with Red 5.

Far more job security with AAA and big budget, weve encountered here over the past 12 months of Kalescent Studios life, the level of professionalism from clients has ranged from absolutely disgraceful to very structured and streamlined.

The disgracefuls i'll be forthcoming and say, go along with the lower budgeted projects in every case so far. This is purely from our experience from dealing with clientele all over the world. Its a case of which one to I wish to expose my team to ?

Developer 1) Disorganised, Unstructured.
Developer 2) Streamlined, Organised.

Ill take Developer 2 thanks. After having accepted both kinds for many months, now we are all in agreeance that its simply a case of working with professionals.

Too many times have we had to take on board an role of educating non professional clients for very little to no reward and in some cases being frowned upon for suggesting improovements, so its by our own choice as a team we simply refuse to do this any longer.

It does sound elitist - but there is still room for the smaller budget games / clients too.

In both AAA / Middleground / Indy there are Professionals and there are Non Professionals.

Ultimately we are happy to work on any level as long as there is a level of professionalism about the client and the project.

quote:Originally posted by Red 5
I think every developer who values themselves as an innovator and is serious about building a solid business with security for their employees, should be aiming for big budget AAA work.

Might as well say my piece as someone who's worked on a couple of high profile indie titles (acmipark and escape from woomera- though I only did a tiny amount on efw):

Don't take this the wrong way Red5, but I feel the word "developer" better fits the people who develop a game, not the studio that employs them. This matters because individual developers may value themselves as an innovator (and I suspect an innovative studio is one with lots of innovative developers). Also imho there are many more strings to the bow of making games than building a solid business and security for employees.

I've been rather involved in the art/indie games scene of Melbourne for the last 2 years or so (and those who've been to freeplay have some idea of how it is expanding). I think it is important to nuture, in part becuase it is away from the pressures of commercial development that the game ideas I find innvovative emerge from.

Can you imagine a commercial studio making efw? [:D] Though I haven't talked to many people employed in the games industry about it (except for the team themselves), most of the indie/art developers consider efw to have been a complete success simply by starting work on it. It made a point loudly enough to get a number of people on the Australia Council fired, and it never made it past a single level demo. It also got publicity that few AAA titles could dream of, and the jerks like Andrew Bolt (Melbourne Herald Sun jouralist) who slagged it off only increased the publicity.

There's been an email circulating from a good friend, it was looking for programmers to work on a project called "The Kill Yourself Game". It's not suicidal, but self-hatred is a large part of the game dynamic. Again something that there is no way in hell a studio that makes AAA titles would touch, but the ideas behind it are imho as good as efw, though without the same political edge.

To me it comes down to the basic question "Why do you make games?", and if it's to earn a living that's fine of course, but this certainly isn't the goal of a lot of those I've been talking with in the Melbourne scene.

There is also acmi as a venue to get these odd/contraversial titles displayed, and Helen Stuckey (screen event programmer in charge of games @ acmi) is a real champion of unusual games.

I'm sure I'll do more ranting on this topic in future, particularly in regards to protecting the art/indie nature of freeplay and doing my damdest to prevent it from becoming another AGDC.

I don't really play AAA titles anymore, nore do I bother watching Hollywood movies- particularly those from Pixar and the like. Lots of flashy graphics and no depth or ideas behind them. I'd rather completely crap graphics and sound with interesting idea/storyline/gameplay anyday, but then my all-time favourite games are Nethack http://nethack.org/ and Elite http://members.chello.at/theodor.lauppert/games/elite.htm

quote:Originally posted by lorien
Also imho there are many more strings to the bow of making games than building a solid business and security for employees.

Most definitely lorien.

I've obviously trodden on a few toes with my statement so I will try to clarify how I see it...

Innovators: I'm speaking purely in technological terms here, not artistically. Having the enough cash flow to afford a full time tech team made up of people who know how to push the boundaries.

Solid business with security for employees: We all know there is little job security in just about any line of work these days (except maybe the undertaking business) but game development in particular is a super high risk business. More developers lose money (or only just break even) than make a profit.

From what I've observed, studios who develop only AAA games and who have close ties with one of the big 3 publishers tend to have more long term stability and operate at a higher profit than those who don't.

But!... I'll be the first to admit that most of the fresh new original ideas coming into games is through indie development.
AAA games aren't about originality, they're only about profit.

Ouch. That's not nice at all.

::Extremely disappointed:: :(

far out.. who would've thought.. what a waste...

payback all assets and money... ouch.. someones gonna get very burnt from all this. my sympathies aswell.

ouch and a half, sorry to hear that guys

Ouch, that?s terrible news.

I wonder how the people at Kalesent studios will be affected by this, weren't they working on some characters for the game?

Hi Djenx, fortunately we escaped unscathed - as we started almost a year ago to date, and finished up all the character work some 8 months ago now. Still, there were some extremely talented and experienced folks that worked on the game to date and its a real shame they wont be given the chance to finish what they started.

Even though a mutual agreement had been struck, it leaves one to ponder the notion....

Publisher loans developer 10 million dollars, developer utilises it in the best way they know how, toward end of game development publisher cancels the development, gathers all assets and code and requests the loan be paid back in full - now publisher holds an almost completed game .... for essentially the loss of time and zero $$$, in which they fork out perhaps a million or two to complete.

Interesting...

In my previous job the project probably would have had a number of milestone payments on various demonstrated criteria. (ie: one art complete level, combat system complete, character selections complete etc.)

I guess though in this biz, the one with the money has the power. Very disappointing.

This is no surprise to me at all, and shouldn?t come as a surprise as the last game that perception completed was a basic arcade title ? I think they were perhaps a little out of depth with this title, and should have hired a more experienced designer / producer ;).

Here is the reality, for them to release on the current generation of gaming platforms, they would need to do this by February, before the next generation of gaming consoles appear on the market, and the publishers lose interest in releasing anything new on the existing ? I here that they are releasing with a solid line-up of titles as well. In fact they really need to do this before Christmas, and from what I can tell by the pretty screenshots that have no gameplay whatsoever, and from what I have heard indirectly on the grapevine, I think they would need one hell of a miracle worker to do so ? hence why JoWood mention development for other platforms, namely the XBOX-360 and PS3, though maybe the PSP is also an option.

But, as far as I understand Perception and JoWood?s relationship together on Stargate-SG1, they can?t just pull the plug and keep what has been done to date and the rights to do the project, as these are Perception?s, as they are the ones that raised the mullah to buy the rights to do the title in the first place. That is unless the project took longer than Perception planned as they did not have the experience to realize that it would in the first place, and struck a new deal with JoWood, effectively signing away their rights to the license and the work to date, if, they did not deliver on time ? who knows, maybe they burned JoWood with their attitude as well, with their actions not backing up their words.

All I?ll say further, is that this is the beginning of the storm, as the next-generation of gaming platforms washes away those that can?t compete in the global market in the way of technology, production and game design ? we are at least a 1-2 year in a few cases, and at least 3-4 years in most cases, behind in technology alone. This local industry is going to be hit with a Tsunami in 6 to 12 months, and the signs of it are already apparent. As I said before, the local industry has grown too fast and too large to be sustainable in the long-term, due to its lack of know-how and overconfidence ? I believe one studio has shut doors in Melbourne already or is on the verge of doing so.

The good news is, that which remains of the local industry, will be far more stronger for it, and, that new studios will spring up and flourish due to the fresh "fertiliser" of the studios that have closed their doors ? the cycle of life, life leads to death, death leads to life, and the world keeps turning.

o-no - the end of the world is nigh!

"Following the termination JoWooD has asked for repayment of their investment in development and further expenses.
According to our reading of the contract the rights to the title as well as the source code are transferred to JoWooD"

Tell me it doesn't get any worse than this. For most studios, wouldn't this scenario be the death knell of it?

Not necessarily, by all rights MF should be dead and buried by now, yet they are still twitching with life whilst hooked up to the life-support in intensive care. Perception have stumbled and fallen flat on their face, fallen hard, and it is doubtful if they will get back up onto their feet to give it another try. They were rather creative and thinking out of the box when they secured the rights to do a title for a well-known license, perhaps that business creativity will keep them going, maybe even revive the project ? they should really think about getting a new lead Designer / Producer though.

But hey, that is if the above is all correct and not too hasty on the part of JoWood, I?m guessing a lengthy legal battle will take place as it is determined who can do what and has the rights to and owns what ? but then again, maybe it is how JoWood say, and it will be over quick.

But hey again, for a second-rate publisher to say that about your project, when most of their projects would only get a 7 out of 10, probably more like 6 out of 10, that says volumes about the title and developer, if the title doesn?t even meet their quality expectations. That kind of mud will stick ;).

BTW: Mcdrewski, it isn?t the end, as the last paragraph of my previous post indicates. I don?t appreciate your sarcasm and ignorance, especially at the severity of the changes the local industry is going through and has yet to endure. You might consider listening to those with more experience and insight into the industry instead than yourself, instead of giving them your pretentious attitude, who see what the local industry is in for next year.

Oh, which do you think your studio will fire first if they hit the tough times, the programmers, the artists, the designers or the QA? I suppose they?ll keep you, and inexperienced game developer with programming skills though? right?

Poor attempt at a joke withdrawn. For the record CF, I largely agree with you - the industry has some growing up to do and I feel terribly for those at Perception who sound like they are the victims of it. The rest of your largely tangential discussion I will leave for another thread.

In response to Souri's comment, I notice that the JoWood announcement is that "their reading" of the contract grants them the rights to the game and code, although I would wager that Perception would have a different reading of that. Unfortunately you're right - this sounds like it may turn into a legal battle for their very survival.

Can we leave the personal attacks out of this, please.

I'm still pondering over that bit of the press release, and if I'm reading it correctly, it's making my head explode. What JoWood are saying is that they're entitled to, from the contract:

1: the rights to the license (which Perception had to get from MGM themselves)
2: repayment of all development investment ([url="http://www.sumea.com.au/snews.asp?news=931"]over $11.5 million?[/url])
3: all code and assets which Perception were paid to make

So JoWood want all the money they've put into developing this game back (so at this point, they break even), but also get the code and assets that they paid Perception to create, along with the StarGate license?! Who would sign on that kind of contract?!

I agree with Cynical about a wasted opportunity. It's pretty easy to see (due to engine choice and the buggy Xbox version/PS2 no show from E3 reports) that the console versions weren't the priority for development, which I personally think it should have been. Should've been aimed for Playstation 2, straight off, that's where the money is. Should've realised that the Unreal Engine 2.5 would be extremely difficult to get going on the PS2 (I've read some post mortems on how difficult this is). Should've had the foresight to see that the Unreal Engine 2/2.5 would be way at the end of its life cycle around the expected release date (Heck, Half Life 2/Source engine was released a year ago).

They did manage to get a great and talented team to start off with, and a game license with huge potential, but somewhere along the way it all fell apart. Whether the project was mismanaged etc, I'll leave that to those who are more in the know. In anycase, it's a damn shame.

Yeh, I know it's easy to sit and give armchair advice, and I'm sure it's a lot more complicated than all that. I'm guessing that everyone will have to be let go now (keeping them on the payroll would burn through money they don't have anymore) and I hope they all find jobs real soon (note: Pandemic, Ratbag/Midway, Blue Tongue/THQ have tonnes of openings at the moment)

btw, I wonder how Namco fits in all this. And also, will the [url="http://www.sumea.com.au/snews.asp?news=1302"]Ebay auction winner get refunded[/url]?

It's not as uncommon as you might think. Development studio wants a shot at making it big so they sign a "bend over and screw me in the date" type contract, development studio fails to deliver, publisher promptly screws developer up the date.

I feel sorry for the guys that work there though :( . Perception should have never signed a contract that allows their publisher to do that. No payoff at the end is worth that risk.

As a former employee of Perception (I was contracted to work as an environment, object, and vehicle concept artist on SG-1 Alliance from April 2004 through to January 2005.) I'm deeply worried about my friends and former colleagues at Perception. While I might be 20000km away sitting in an office in Oslo Norway, I feel for them - they're a talented and dedicated group of people and they really don't deserve this.

Ask anyone who works in the games industry and they'll tell you that given the factend up spending a most of your waking life, you inspire and collaborate on so many facets of the games with a bunch of crazily talented and passionate freaks, you end up becoming a cohesive unit - you become comrades (I can't think of a better word for it)... Guys, I hope this works out well for you all. You deserve better than this.

-unit

www.unitstudio.com
www.ageofconan.com

I think you need to take the "we want our money and the source too" as a legal tactic rather than an honestly expressed expectation. They're probably not sure which of the two the courts will be more likely to grant, so they might as well ask for both. I'm guessing the ruling will be that Perception needs to refund the money and if they can't then they need to hand over the source.

Also consider the fact that MGM would have undoubtedly put down a time limit for development. The license must expire some time so MGM can give it to someone else. The Stargate art assets are mostly worthless to anyone who doesn't hold the license to use them. Now that Sony owns MGM they might be inclined to deny a license for versions on competing platforms. It could be game over for everyone involved.

pb

Hey Peter...how goes it at Team Bondi?

You made an Interesting point mate...it could well be a ploy on Jowood's part. In the announcement on Jowood's site they certainly seem uncertain about their rights to the source, license AND the money. They say, according to their interpretation.

It could well be a ploy to secure the source AND the money however, effectively getting a free game and in that case only jowood and perception are privy to the contract they signed. I might mention that I''d very much doubt that MGM would've signed a sublicencing contract with Perception that would allow them to hand the licence to a third party, so I don't like Jowood's chances here and I suspect in this case that they are certainly just 'fishing'or at least putting out feelers to MGM to secure the license from them.

In the end, whatever happens is really is down to Sony/MGM and anything else is pure speculation until we hear what they have to say on the matter.

All I know is as someone who worked on the game it'd be shame to see it not ship and I am worried about former work colleagues whom I consider to be good friends...

Hey Grant! It's going great at Team Bondi, definitely glad I made that move even before all this went down.

I think your absolutely right about JoWooD going on a legal fishing expedition, they would surely like to get everything for themselves, I'm just saying that they probably don't actually expect to. Either way, it doesn't do any harm to ask for it.

And as you say, what Sony/MGM does with the license will dictate the value of the source which makes it much more risky than the money. I suspect the money is what JoWooD will really focus on. However they might be concerned that Perception will be unable to repay so they're also going to build a case to get the source.

Even if they do get the source, make a deal with Sony/MGM and continue development they face additional difficulties. For example, some of the technology that Perception has licensed is not transferrable. JoWooD would either have to re-work the game or re-license the technology (for an additional cost).

It certainly doesn't look good for the staff but they're a talented lot, I'm sure they'll find other work without too much trouble. Some might even join you in Oslo :)... How are things going over there anyway?

pb

i can't imagin anyone signing a contract allowing the publised to pull out and take all the assets AND have all their investment payed back. as unit said it essentailly allows the publisher to lead the dev on creating the game, pull out at the last moment, have their investnet paied back (thus recieving an almost complete game for zero cost) and then having some other shmuk finish it up for the very small remaing cost (thus that being allso the total cost of the project)- imagin the profits to be made of a system like that! i mean, i can't even imagin that being legal.

as for the game, i would have liked to play it, seeing as how i enjjoy watching the series. though after reading a few web stories and dev intervirews on the game i wasn't looking forward to much. it seemed to come accorss like a stock standard FPS, dispte what came accross as a very poor attempt by the devs to talk up their team play aspects (which seemd to be infrequent and even the devs in the interview didn't sound very conifdent).[?]

still, can't be as bad as the tv show [:D]

sorry, dispite stargate's glaring plot holes, blatent rip-offs, cliches, steriotypes, anti-climaxes, and frequent exposition, i still find i never miss and episode![:D]

Pete, it's going well although I tend to be spending most of my waking hours in the office lately. There's so much work to get through that's in part backlogged from when I was relocating to Norway.

Barring the cost of the place and the weather, and the occasional bout of homesickness, I'm really enojinyg. There hasn't been much of a summer - it's mostly rained but I expect the rain will stop when it starts to snow. [V]

Email me at my personal addy on www.unitstudio.com. It's listed there. I have a personal web journal for friends and family - I'll forward you the link. Ther you can read my inane, pointless ramblings.

As you say the technology that Perception has licensed exclusively will be an interesting matter to resolve, and if this does become a legal rangling for the custody of an almost completed game between two, possibly three parties, then complicated issues like this will keep the game on hold for sometime yet.

Livewire, as rahnem says, it's unfortunately not uncommon for developers to sign thse kind of contracts in order to make it big. But as to the nature of the contract only the courts will be able to decide it's true nature. No doubt, Perception have one interpretation of what they signed and we've seen, given JoWooD's very blunt public statement, they have their own interpretation.

It is going to get interesting no doubt - it's just terrible that there has to be innocent parties caught in the middle of this. No only fearing the loss of your job (even though as you say Pete, PErception has a large number of talented peebs and most if not all will find work in Oz or abroad should it come to that) but how demoralising it is to work your guts out only to have the rug pulled form under at the 12th hour. I can't imagine anything being more conducive to burnout in the industry.

Things are definitely interesting, that's for sure. It's a strange atmosphere here inside Perceptions office.

Hey Evyn, I hope the guys there aren't too angry, I know it would be very hard not to be, but I think I can safely say, on behalf of the Sumea and indeed the Australian gaming community, we extend our deepest sympathies and well wishes into the Perception camp.

There will probably be a legal process that will be required against JoWooD, but I'll be rooting for ya! :D
Remember to keep all your heads up, from the media that I saw of Stargate, I was trully interested in playing it once released. Good luck guys in the future :)

yes, it certainly looked like a lot of work has gone into the game's artwork judging from the screen shots, it's a pity it has to go yo waste, or at the least go uncredited or some such.

I was reading this the other day: http://www.igda.org/columns/lastwords/lastwords_Jul05.php

Interesting Pete, I wonder if JoWood took into account the 'non-transferable engine license' into account :) I doubt it. We'll see this resolved in the courts I guess. We'll just have to wait and see what MGM and Perception have to say in reply. As for the guys still at Perception, I feel for them too but they are a talented bunch and would find jobs anywhere. Most of them have been through this sort of thing before. (some more times than others :) )... plus I think they're looking for people here, guys :)

Hey Vinh!

Agreed re the talent of the team. If the worst case scenario for Perception does happen, then I have no doubt the team while disperse and find other jobs within the industry. There's a good mix of veterans and newbs who have really had a trial by fire and should be considered experienced artists, programmers, what have you. They're battle-hardend now considering hgouw heavily they've been crunching over the past few months from what I hear.

Pandemic and the other studios who are currently recruiting could do far worse than get some of these people on board...

I won't speculate on the future of either JoWooD or Perception but surely such an aggressive act can't put a publisher in good stead with other developers? They'd be very wary of doing business with them after this...

Is this the (former) Perception employee thread now!? :)

Word at the pub has it that development will continue and a new publisher will be sought. If they retain the rights and fund the development themselves they could probably do a good deal.

The key question is this: can they produce a something that actually works on the consoles and gets approval?

pb

Thanks all, imho this is exactly what sumea is for and there should be more discussions like this one.

Agreed lorien. While this is slightly off topic, Sumea is indispensivle in that it allows those aspiring to entre the industry to gain insights into it from people such as Vinh, Pete, Livewire and myself among others. souri has done a fantastic job...

I'm a frequent visitor but unfortunately work commitments and a busy schedule means I don't participate as much as I should.I hope to rectify that in future.

Pete, that's the word I'm also hearing from the people I'm still in contact with at Perception. Still these are uncertain times and we can only hope things are resolved quickly so that people can get on with their lives. There's nothing worse than a state of limbo - of not knowing. At least if you receive bad news then you know where you stand.

Madcap is an offshoot of Ratbag, or at least that's what I heard. It must have closed since Ratbag don't need it anymore, or that there aren't that many films being made that require it.

Tim Richards would be the legal person to chat to about this. Hopefully he'll be able to chime in with some of his knowledge.

The OFLC doesn't have the power to change the ratings system to include an R rating. You should be pressuring the federal government, and I think the best chance we had in getting changes was probably during the last election where we could've voted Howard and his cabinet out.

I think a game like GTA: San Andreas highlights what's exactly wrong with our games classification system. It's a game which that was classified overseas as a 17+ title, but (until recently) was available here at MA 15+. The whole lack of R rating issue is not only taking away our choices as adult consumers, but is ensuring that some games that are intended for an older audience are pushed to a younger one.

That whole free-trade thing is a huge can of worms, I have no idea how this could be played out with that in mind. I do wonder what choice local retailers have now that San Andreas is banned. Do they write off their copies in stock?

Souri: They sell them under the counter [;)].
Maddox has a rant on GTA-SA:
http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=ticket_to_hell

Australias censorship analness is only matched by one other country...

guess who that is...

Germany XD

I recall reading that german censors don't mind nudity as long as
there isn't graphic violence, and merkin censors don't mind graphic
violence as long as there isn't nudity.

Really silly, you can have a game with lot's of violence but no nudity or sex.

It tells me that human beings are aggressive and like aggression more than sexuality

Germanys game rating laws are so anal, because of the way their system is set up.
To take you back to your school days......
Germany was build by the church because of all the money it received from the population (Germany is VERY religious). So when the time came to form a nation the church had all the power.
Flash forward to today: and all major decisions still need the church's approval to some extent.
Why? Because %99.9 percent of the population are devout church goers and if you try to release a product that?s been condemned by the church then you won't make very many sales.

Over the years though, the older generation have passed away and the more westernized, young generation aren?t looking to the church for all the answers.
Sorry to go off topic but I just wanted to explain that Germany has a reason for its Anal-ness where as Australia is only this way because two members of the OFLC don't understand computers.

On another note you can still buy GTASA at Harvey Norman, go figure? I guess they haven't heard that the game is bad mmmmkay.