Industry and Education

where abouts? is this one of the presentations? i might be able to submit mine, i would really like feedback on my work. i need to put it all together yet though so i might not even be ready until early next week. would it be possible to hand it to you down there?

http://www.agdc.com.au/conference/schedule_fri.php

Right now it is listed as Storytelling and the "In-Game Cinematic"

yup, plastic wax has pulled out and I've taken the 1:25-2:35pm art slot.

you can either give me a link to download reels, or give it to me before the day down at agdc [:)]

cool, i'll probably end up giving it to you there cos i'm unlikly to be able to upload it in time. we'll see. are you going to the sumea meet on wednessday night?

yup, I should most definitely be at the sumea meets [:)] - feel free to give it to me there.

Just an update on things, I'm pushing for three panelists, so far myself (EyeCandy Animation), Chee Kin Chan (Team Bondi), and waiting on a third persons confirmation.

I'm actually quite surprised, I've had only a few people expressing interest from forums here compared to elsewhere, but a lot less than I'd of expected -- come on guys! Don't be shy! This is your chance to see how employers are going to be looking at your work, and get helpful tips on bettering that presentation [B)]

i'm worried wether i should give you mine to show now though, i havnt reayl had any time to put anything good together. it's going to be a very short showreel...

i know your supposed to keep them short and sweet but i'm talking a matter of seconds here! a lot of the best work i've done this yeah got a dodgy maxmaterial/cell shading job done to it for an asessment so they dont have real textures. so i dont know if i should show them in it. i'm not going for a texture job though, but i think it a textre loks better than a wire mesh. any tips?

hehe that's exactly why you should be putting it forward! [:)]

generally, someone looking at your work is going to assume it's your best work that you've got (as it should be, unless you're unable to show other stuff due to public disclosure issues).

Simply getting stuff out there, in front of people, and shown around is the best thing anybody can actually do. You get feedback, you get recognition of previous work later on, and most importantly you show you're active and above all very interested in what you do. As a general rule, showing your stuff and just being able to hear what people think of it is going to encourage you to grow twice as fast as an artist.

ok, i'll give you what little i come up with then.

because i'm not actualy finishing my course at QANTm until next april or something i wasnt planning on puuting a serious demo reel together until then. kinda of a mistake now i realise as i'm going down to AGDC with nothing to show but my game project, which i'm very happy with, i just wish i had a bit more. oh well.

Hey, how did this session go? Did you get to tear apart any folios? [:0]

I got some great advice out of it. i was up until 2am wednesday night re-doing mine for qantm's industry night.

I reckon the Brisbane IGDA chapter have got it sweet. A lan and a BBQ! You can't go wrong with that, and I think it takes the pressure off people running out of things to say development-wise, and to just relax and chill out as well..

Lan, BBQ, Beer = Good times. [:D]

Addendum: Still waiting on the Feedback from those who asked for a Tuesday 14th Meet-up.. If they do not reply.. the fall back date will be Friday 10th, This way.. all those who would like to go onwards to a Bar/Pub for more socialising can so.

Friday night or tuesday, they both should be fine...

Did you guys have meeting?
I rekon some of the Ratbag (www.ratbaggames.com) crew would be interested in attending.
Post a write up about the event here!

I also notice that while some of the other states have IGDA (www.igda.org) chapters, SA doesn't. You should think about forming one. It's beneficial for students and professionals.

Funny bit of news, I was riding on the bus wednesday morning, and I didn't realise it but Tony Albrecht (hope I spelt the name correctly), sat down next to me. But the bad news is that I only confirmed that it was him after he got off the bus...

Dang.

Finally I have confirmation for the room & times

Its UniSA west campus.. GK2-12 the official meet-up time is from 4pm to 6pm but I fudged the time sheet to go to 8:00pm.

we have the room starting at 3:00pm and I'll be there then setting up the lap-top and projector.. incase anyone is not doing anything and rocks up early

afterwards.. I hope many will wander along to a pub where we can continue the meet-up in a social atmosphere

Hi All. Adelindie are doing meetups. There was a pretty decent LAN at one member's place in Dec. Check out www.grit.net.au/adelindie/index.php for more info and details of coming events.

I'd be keen to help form an IGDA chapter for SA/Adelaide more at http://www.grit.net.au/adelindie/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=122

Stay cool! Hope to meetup early in the new year.[^]

Having completed a Bachelor of Computer Science at a "normal" university I'd have to say do that instead of the dedicated games course. I was all enthused about working on games when I first started Uni and in High School, but now I'm much more pessimistic. I would probably rather program applications (in fact that's what I'm doing now in my spare time) than games for a living, though I would still probably dabble in some graphics technology and small games as a hobby.

My advice would be to complete your normal CS degree where you're currently at, and then if you're still *extremely* keen on making games maybe think about attending one of those speciality colleges/degrees. Just remember that someday you might change your mind and want to do something else, a general degree won't be a hinderence to that.

I agree with Daemin, particularly if you can do some graphics and or physics subjects where you are.

Wouldn't that take 7 years?

CS Degree all the way, you'll learn more about the in's and outs of computers then any Game Course will teach you. For a programmers gig, that's the most important thing. From there, you can always get into games via your own demos etc, where as if it falls through, you can't really do anything else with a Games Degree.

La Trobe Computer Science lets you do MSc and PhD level games programming. I'm doing an MSc.

Perhaps RMIT does too?

I think Australian post-grad research courses are like those in the UK i.e. you just do research and no coursework.

cheers mate,I'll check it out.

Have you contacted the school directly to see if they have anything available.

Also, may be worth digging around on the net looking for websites that list various scholarships.

yea i did. They don't have any scholarships at all.

yes qatm has changed a great deal since then. it's a lot better now i guess (though i cant compare it first hand). the teachers really know their stuff which is great. ther are four games courses now: aniamtion or programing diploma and animation and programing degree. i did the dip last year and it was great as yo spent most ofthe time doing your own project and the teachers were a huge help. this year i'm doing the degree, it's not as good as most of my time i'm doing assessment and trying to find time for my project. i realy only came back for the piece of papper. i figuered i'd only spend the year improving my skills anyway, so i might as well do it here where i can get the teachers help again and a degree at the end of it.

as for project sizes, our current group is 10 people, and i think that's the largest. they didnt really want us to go any bigger, and i wouldnt want too. our team were all dedicate to the task. we did a whole class project earlier in the year for asessment and it was a dissaster. so many people were slack meaning other people had to pick up the slack. obviusly if your not getting paid for it you'd only want to do what you have to do for the marks and that's it. at least i this assessment project. the major one is a little different, but our small team allows us to focus and organise more.

We dont have slackers at the AIE.

Every school has slackers, AA. By saying there are slackers it is not a pick on the school itself.

Down with QANTM.....BOOO!! HISSS!!

Good too hear they are better now and run a good course....its a shame they had to rip off many a young person to get there.

quote:We dont have slackers at the AIE.

AnarchyAngel: What point are you trying to make? AIE students are better than QANTM? Why?
As far as I know we don't have any ex AIE guys working with us but we have a few ex QANTM, myself included.

The respective courses and the city they are in don't necesarily define the intial or final skills or the level of drive in those who attend.

Alot of those who choose to leave either, find they are in it for the wrong reason, are interstate or international students who leave to go home, have financial or family troubles and of course a small minority drop out through laziness, I guess AIE students are above all that?

Why don't we stop the AIE fanboy stuff and give some real helpful perspective to the discussion, what was it about AIE that you found better and what was it about QANTM you disliked?

Can I just say I get sick of ex QANTM/AIE students blaming them soley for not having a job, yeah granted they may have screwed alot of us around at times but if its been longer than 6-12 months since you left its all on your shoulders.

Originally posted by LiveWire in the gamer or game developer thread:
quote:And as for quality of student work, i put it down to training. at qantm most of what i learn in terms of real practical modeling skills is what i learn myself. we dont have any classes to teach us exactly "what is polyflow", "how to construct a face for lipsyncing", "how to rig a freaking sholder of rcorrect defformation" (i'm still perplexed about that one). the tutors are a great source of help for these problems, but the problem is it's not taught in class in the first place! they have into like "this is how you extrude a polygon, great, not you know how to model a character". there is a difference between teaching how to use the tools and how to realy model.
texturing i wont even start on cos that's not even mentioned in the course outline :?
animation is not so bad, as seeing as though that's what the course is based on we have a fair bit of lecturing on that.

Very interesting about the qantm degree. Since it?s primary focus is animation, how good would you say the course is from an animation perspective? Would you recommend it?

quote:We dont have slackers at the AIE.
LOL Good one! [:D]

quote:
AnarchyAngel: What point are you trying to make? AIE students are better than QANTM? Why?

Hey now, no need to get so agro, he's obviously joking! ...at least i hope so...i'd be worried if he truly believed that... :P
CYer, Blitz

Obviously joking you say, well I I don't know how you could tell from just 7 words, it just read as selfrighteous and baiting to me.

As for agro, I was mearly questioning a strange and pointless comment, can't see how that agressive. [:P]

everyone needs to use emoticons more often [:D]

palantir: i havnt done any other course than qantm's so i cant compare it to any others. so based on my experience there alone, i probably would recomend it for animation. but animation as it's related to games. it might be focused on animation but do modeling and such as well (though not much). ther are probably better courses out there at a UNI or something for hard core animation, but i have enjoyed my time at qantm. i spend a lot of my time in labs doing things other than animation. so it's good if you want to get into games.
guess i cant really give much of a recomendation, as i said above: i havnt don any other course to compare it too.

quote:Can I just say I get sick of ex QANTM/AIE students blaming them soley for not having a job, yeah granted they may have screwed alot of us around at times but if its been longer than 6-12 months since you left its all on your shoulders.
i agree, you cant expect them to get you a job, i dont. i do expect them to teach us more though. most stuff i have learnt i have discovered on my own study. i should be taught most of this in class and then left to practice doing it well in my own study. eg: we never learnt about polyflow in class, and i feel is critical mistake bassed on a lot of the work i see around class.

I'm Also an EX QANTM student from 2002 - 2003

For someone like myself being an artist doing a programming course, it was hard enough to grasp what the heck was going on inside the DirectX SDK having no prior code experience, and 6 months into the course our DirectX Tutor left [:(] and because the new tutor did not have the same skillset, we had to pay the price and basically start again.

Not cool at all in my oppinion.

What I did find is that the tutors new their shite - If i had a problem someone was on hand to fix it and help me through [:P] - and in more cases actually helped me to learn why that came about - not simply provided an answer without in fact learning anything.

I am thinking on signing up at Quantm next year, doing the Programming Degree. I have read every post on this forum regarding the pros and cons of most major institutes around the country that offer a "Games" type course, Quantm seem to be pretty good.

Now I am not really qualified to comment on the AIE vs Quantm debate, but, I have teaching experience in private education orginisations and I can tell you this: If a kid straight out of school wants to pay 13K per year they WANT to learn, that means they ask questions, try new things and generally bug the hell out of everyone until they leave or succeed. An adult on the other hand doesnt pay money unless they think they will get something out of it, the misguided souls that they are, no one gets what they want from this type of course unless they really want to do it with a passion. I have watched my students pay upwards of 15K for 6 months of M$ development courses then find out that they prefer system admin for the social interaction or the technical challenge.

Me, I have worked in many industries and after nearly a whole lifetime of programming (C64 Basic anyone) as an amature I have finally found what I want to do, make games. This decision took years to come to, mod after mod and just coding something because I could. Does this make me different from others ? I think so, I WANT this, really want it. When I studied for my MCSE I spent countless hours at home practicing, not the labs we did in the course, not some cool stuff that old mate had mentioned but real world things. In that branch of IT its easy to do this, just jump on google groups, find a scenario that had some sys admin stumped and recreate it. If you can fix it then you just learnt something more valuble than any tutor can give you.

With game dev, its the same, sure you gota pass the course, but dont whine about what you didnt learn because you didnt ask, this is a common misconception about tertiary education. The tutors are not there to hold your hand until you can cross the road, they are there to show you where the crossing is and lend support if you feel you need it. Give em a break, people generally dont teach for the money, they do it to watch the light bulb come on, it is very disheartening as a trainer to see a promising student fall by the wayside because they just couldnt put the effort in to be good at what they want to do.

It sucks that some have experienced the pain of a good trainer leaving mid-course, I know what that feels like, but you get that on these big jobs. A student is not as good as the institue they attend, they are as good as their attitude will let them be, raw skill is a bonus, but its not the be all and end all. You gota try in this world if you want to succeed.

My 2 cents.

Hi Coralon, welcome to the forums [:)]. Reading your post I see many truths and it occurs to me that considering self motivation and self learning is by far the most important aspect of education, then perhaps it really doesn?t matter that much which course/institute someone attends. Provided the student has the right ?stuff?, success can occur with any institute in any learning environment.

I?ve completed the games programming Diploma through TAFE (based on the QANTM curriculum), and that course was seriously lacking lecturer/tutor guidance, even compared to other TAFE courses (of which I?ve done several). It was compulsory to be self driven and determined to succeed, and because of this only two of us made it through. However, I feel this is the way it should be, as only the fully motivated students have a shot at the industry anyway.

I plan on studying an animation Degree (after I finish my arts course) and I?m considering all the institutes, though QANTM seems to be the most likely for me. The Uni courses look very detailed, though would take longer to complete, and because self-motivation is the most important thing, I think QANTM is the best choice for me personally. They also sound like the best choice for anyone aiming for the games industry. I get the impression that the strength of technical training institutes like QANTM is in the human resources ? these courses give students access to people in the know with industry experience, whereas possibly a university?s strength is more to the theory side of things with more well designed lectures. So the choice seems to be practice vs. theory. Would this be a correct assumption?

With regards to the thread topic, I think it?s impossible to say that one institute is better then another, since it?s all up to the student to succeed. The institute is just a means to an end, but it?s the student?s attitude that?s the most important factor in determining success. It?s what?s within that counts.

quote:Originally posted by palantir

With regards to the thread topic, I think it?s impossible to say that one institute is better then another, since it?s all up to the student to succeed. The institute is just a means to an end, but it?s the student?s attitude that?s the most important factor in determining success. It?s what?s within that counts.

There are a few other factors to add to that as well.

*While each course has a "set" curriculum, you will find that each teacher for that course will interpret the curriculum differently and you may find that you will come away with a different knowledge then another person has from the same class with a different teacher.

*Each year the students? abilities will vary. If you have a class of extremely talented individuals you may find that you end up moving on to more complex subjects where as with a group that may be more varied it may not stretch as much to ensure that everyone had equal time to learn.

*Over time - be it new teachers for classes or through evaluation of the Curriculum - the course itself will change. One school may be quicker to determine what areas it may be lacking in and fill those gaps.

or like at QANTM you'll get a few of us who are anoyed at the lack of teaching real practical stuff in the degree and begin bitching until they do something about it (which they have)!

palantir: Thanks for the welcome and support, self-motivation is what its all about in adult education. TAFE courses really lack good teachers for specialised stuff, mainly because they are snapped up by uni's, private sector like Quantm or they get locked away by some giant company never to be seen again.

Jacana: I agree with all three points, trainers will always put their own spin on a curriculum, be it through interpretation or someone elses example. This is not neccessarily a bad thing as different classes emerge from the courses with different mindsets and some wacky skills, this breeds diversity and competition, both healthy things.
Student skill levels do vary, trainers are usually aware of this and try to compensate by spending more time with those that struggle but there is always going to be those that cant be helped, as palantir stated, only the best will get a shot anyhow. Getting a leg up is as simple as downloading a free language and compiler like Python which isnt that far off C/C++ and practicing for a couple of months before you start.
Different institues do change things in the curriculum from time to time as a course evolves, this is one of the problems many are finding with the QLD TAFE course based on Quantm's Diploma, it is in its infancy and at 1/6th the cost what more could you expect. When uni's start to offer a Games Programming Major as common place we may see an increase in quality flow down to lower level courses but that is a little while off yet.

LiveWire: That is how you get results, to many people today just lay there and get kicked in the guts liked the proverbial dog because they didnt stand up and voice their opinion.

Pointed refrain from flaming [:)]

OffTopic:
LiveWire, would you mind changing that sig? Everyone needs sleep or their body breaks down: mine did at 24- full-on carpal tunnel syndrome in both wrists and three slipped discs in lower back. The cause was too much programming and bad sitting posture.

Completely better now, though it took around 4 years. IMHO it's best to start healthy habits (like sleep) as a student.

ahh but i am a student, hence i dont sleep :)

Perhaps "IMHO Sleep is for the weak!" :)

I don?t sleep, I pass out.

Just about ready to pass out now, actually...

I am a degrre student at QANTM doing programming. I am extremely happy with the course so far. I did the diploma there too in 2003. Hopefully the buy-out from SAE will make it an even better place in the future.

I wish QANTM would promote their students a bit more though. I look at the AIE website often and its literally plasted with student news and work, wish we had that.

Suggest it to them - or even offer to help do it yourself. It's hard to have things happen when people don't even know you would like them to happen.

Livewire it was the same with us we had to real fight with the Qantm admin to get stuff done? Who the guy in charge now? When I was there is was a Balding guy with glasses and pot bell (no offence intended in discription). Cant remember his name though?

Side note we even had a Lawyer in our class that threatend to sue lol!

i dont know his name so i cant help you there. we have been trying to get funding for AGDC seeing as we feel we have a good contender for the comp. QANTM however dosnt seem to want to help us at all. they have said they will pay for two people's flights and accomidation (better than the first deal of one person's flight) - but only if we win.

ignorant i know, but i have difficulty looking at cources like these (quantum, AIE, etc) I would not do them as i would perfer to keep my money and teach myself the skills (and use the money on software/ hardware)

feel that they smell a bit of 'pay for praise', though then again i spent quite a bit of money studying architecture and was surrpised at the number of people who had a highschool 'sit down and get parrot taught information' mentality rather than what i would consider a university 'go find the books and ask questions when stuck'.....

appoligies for being flamebait, guess my situation is a bit different from most people?

That?s a very good point actually, and certainly worth considering.

When you think that the QANTM animation degree costs something like $13000 (not sure of the exact price), and lets add another $5000 for hardware/software/study necessities; so that?s around $18000 to basically teach yourself how to model/animate and have someone around to help you out when you get stuck. But at the end of the course, your still only as good as the work and effort you put in, and judging from what people have said about qualifications, the piece of paper isn?t going to help get that job very much either.

Alternatively, you could put that $18000 into your own hardware/software and any training tools you think useful, as well as the occasional private tutor to help when your stuck, spread out over two years (the length of the QAMTM course), and quite possibly come out a much better artist (or programmer if you choose that direction). And if your skills are at the necessary level, you?ll have a chance at a job, even without the Degree.

I suppose it all depends on the individual and what?s right for you. Some people need the motivation of having assessment due to make progress, while others are far more constructive working in their own time. Then there is the community aspect of formal education, though these days the net offers enough community access that the private student can get the same community interaction that an educational institute offers.

I think for programmers, formal eduction is essential because you would tend to concentrate on the fun stuff and ignore certain important areas. Though for artists, maybe some formal training in traditional art is enough, and the technical side of things can be learnt in you own time? Maybe spending a couple of years working hard teaching yourself at home would be more productive then attending a specialised instituted like QANTM?

What do other people think about this? Can self-training compete with formal technical training? Considering the cost of education, this is an important issue.

at qantm we pretty much do teach ourselves. myslef the only way i improve is to do my own study/practice, as it is with everyone no doubt. however, personally i learn best by being shown how to do something (and then going off to practice it). that's why labs and tutors at qantm are great for me. i've tryed learning for web tutorials and books before, and while i can do it, i find it harder, and i really need to have some basic understanding from the begining to get it. it it's something completely new i struggel unless there is someone i can ask help from. which is why somone sitting next to me showing me how to do it is so much better for me.
that's just me ofcourse.

It really depends on what you want at the end of the day.

I am more like Livewire where it's nice to have the human contact. To have someone there to ask questions to or show you. I find I generally learn by watching and understanding then doing myself - rather then just jumping in with no clue.

As for why to pay what you pay for school. It depends on what you want. I think a lot of people looked at the courses as being cheaper and shorter then Uni but then found that the trade-off was having to spending more time learning outside of school.

The other thing that these schools can afford you is information on what is happening with local companies, contacts, and given the small number of students (based off uni size) the ability to stand out and be an individual.

I certainly dont regret doing the two courses I have done at QANTM.

Best thing I got for my money was CONTACTS. Making friends with all my fellow students some of which are now currently emplyed in the games industry. To me thats just Gold.

I too learn better myself but beeing surronded by people with the exact same interest and pashion is the best motivational tool you can have.

quote:Originally posted by LiveWire

i dont know his name so i cant help you there. we have been trying to get funding for AGDC seeing as we feel we have a good contender for the comp. QANTM however dosnt seem to want to help us at all. they have said they will pay for two people's flights and accomidation (better than the first deal of one person's flight) - but only if we win.

For what it is worth AIE students have to fund themselves as well. I am not saying that we have it hard - stuff like PC's will be taken care of by the school - but each student had to find their own way to get down there.

It's a pitty that you are not getting much support for it. It's too late for this year but have you thought of talking to them about trying to help students organise fund raising opportunities and such?

quote:Originally posted by Jacana
For what it is worth AIE students have to fund themselves as well.

Although, from next year, AIE (melbourne and canberra) students will get entry to the AGDC absolutely free. Offsets transport/accomodation costs a little. Lucky SOB's :P

I would doubt that people would go to these courses instead of uni due to uni costing more, considering uni fees can go on HECS, and these other diploma/cert courses etc. generally are paid upfront, and unless you get a funded place, i'm not sure if it's even cheaper than uni at all! $8000/year is more than my uni course cost/year when i did it, but i hear fees have increased since then :P I can't remember exactly what my cost was, but i think around $16,000 for 3 years...(including a couple of extra subjects i had to make up, so a "standard" 3 year course would have been slightly less).

Also, i don't think the internet can quite give you the same community experience as talking to people face to face...

Finally, one last thing i'll say, if you do plan to take a year or so off to study/learn by yourself, don't end up getting a full-time job. Do it right, take the time to focus on your learning. You can live ok on a 20hr/week part time job if your lucky, or live with your parents for free even better :)
CYer, Blitz

Nope. No one. You are going to be there all by yourself, alone, in a big empty room.
:)

Pantmonger

quiet you, im goin

Nope, not worth the cost involved the time I have to take off work and, I'm not sure, but I think I have exams on as well :)

Well... one of our 2 main goals here @ Kalescent was to attend this years AGDC with a playable version of Urban Brawl - but its been pushed back by the achievement of the 2nd Goal which was to have completed work on an AAA title before the end of 2005. So no AGDC for the team this year!

I will be there :) I am moderating the Women in Games panel.

I think alot of people in the industry won't be going. Myself and I know others who see the AGDC As a place for all the big guys to get togeather and have a party, catch up etc. Along with a thing for students. So A. The big guys and girls who can afford it B. Students who get such a discount they can afford it. With that said about the cost. Does the AGDC realy offer anything to anyone going? What you can go to some talks and see the latest stuff in the new 3D packagers.. If you realy want to lean anything get onto the net and you can learn these things anyway. I think the only part of the AGDC I will be going to is the open parts to the community but who knows.

AGDC offers one thing that reading stuff on the net can't - networking. There's a world of difference between talking on the net and talking face-to-face and partying with people.

Whilst I do consider it to be overpriced, there are significant savings to be made with an early group booking. It's free if you're giving a talk, and if you're not then the cost is tax-deductable, plus I'd figure that most companies chip in a bit and let you salary sacrifice it.

yeah i went down last year and i really enjoyed it (i was and still am a student so i got a better price too). i'm looking forward to it again this year as we've got a demo to present in the unsigned game comp - if we get accepted.

even with the discount its hard for students to afford it!
i know out of our group of about 8 dead-set on getting into games (hopefully) after uni that i'll be the only one going which is a bummer!

you've got to really look into cheepo ways of getting down there, cheep flights (or even frequent flyers if you can get it), cheep and dirty accomidation - i never spent much time at the '3 star hotel' (three beds and a sink in a 4x4 room) where i sayed last year anyway, and eat as little as possible!

I'm attending there doing a Degree and all i can say is WHOOOOO HOOOOOO.

SAE will inject some sorely needed funds into it. The teachers have been fantastic but there have been a few other areas that certainly could do with a little improvement. Whilst most of these changes will take effect after i leave I certainly feel jealous for the ppl doing the course after me.

yup... SAE have a healthy amount of funds thats for sure...

they recently just purchased 20 Focusrite Liquid channels (they are small digital preamps used in music production)...

at a cost of $6,000aust. each... theres a nice $120,000 bill for someone to pay...

im not sure about multimedia courses, but some students doing Audio degrees have an opportunity to go to byron bay to there SAE campus there...

i hear SAE have a mac fetish though..

Yeah they have a really big mac fetish.....good news to graphic design students.

They're upgrading some qantm classrooms with G5's with those cool screens with the latest multimedia software too.

Yeah, its good news for Qantm students, moreso ones studying from now on, however I beleive there may be the opportunity for a Masters degree in Byron Bay, which would kick ass.
Have yet to find any info on it, but its interesting news.

-t

Hey, my advice would b 2 talk 2 Gay Swinn (find her contact details on he RMIT website), she's coordianting the game design course. Many of the units are shared between comp.sci. and the new course - so you can probably just pick up what you want as electives - or maybe you can get advanced standing for what you've done so far. Good luck.

i've just completed my third year of four for the b.design (multimedia systems) at rmit and they're letting first years change over.. but if i were to change over all the subjects that i did in engineering and business would would have no effect as it's computer science/art and design..

hopefully their new courses will run alot better than ours which was computer science/art and design/engineering/business and we bascially didn't actually seem to be a part of any =)

The new url for RMIT's three courses (Digital Art, Games Graphics Design, Games Graphics Programming) is:

http://www.rmit.edu.au/ID=8lxyo1gzf2g61

More information about Games Graphics Programming is also available linked from

http://www.rmit.edu.au/browse;ID=0zqlynndl8mc1

I personally see greater benefit in a bachelors degree (or whatever) in computer science or similar, than a 1-2 year specific games programming course. You'll gain much broader knowledge in the uni degree than you will in a games specific course, however the uni degree may lack the significant teamwork aspect. This is easily remedied by working on a group game project/mod in your spare time.

In the end, which ever way you go, as long as you work hard and put in the effort to learn outside of your normal class curriculum, employers won't really care where you got your education from, as your ability will be evident in the code/programs that you send with your resume.

However, that said, you might still find it difficult to get taken seriously at first glance if you don't have ANY programming related qualification. An unfortunate thing, sometimes employers don't bother to look at your work if they already have it set in their mind that you are unskilled because of a lack of formal education :(
CYer, Blitz

I agree with Blitz that you're probably better with a degree in computer science or software engineering. I think this would give you a better grounding in programming in general and at the end, at least you'll have the necessary skills to work in any software engineering industry and not be restricted to games.

As for the lack of teamwork in Uni degrees, I'd have to disagree. During my course I worked on about 20 different projects ranging from in 3-10 people teams. Most unis realise that in today's world, team work is essential to any software engineer. There's too much for anyone to do themselves.

just my 2c.
-kul

I hear this alot, a degree won't get you anywhere in the games biz. Get some programming knowledge and code a demo, alot of companies value this much higher than a piece of paper saying you know a bit of software engineering stuff. Basically they are after people whose enthusiasm and energy they can suck dry for cheap wages making lifeless games.

Sorry but I've got to disagree with you there Maitrek. Its not really about the piece of paper but what you learn. There's very few programmers at the company I work for as well as the previous one without an engineering, science or math degree. A degree is only a piece of paper if you go through the course trying to get just a piece of paper out of it. These days companies are looking more and more for people who can work in teams, set and follow schedules, communicate ideas and designs as well as being good coders. Its big businesses these days and strict deadlines, one programmer can't do it all on time. I would like to think that in the games industry, on the technical side anyway, we're headed towards software engineers rather than just programmers.

-kul

What I'm saying is that it's more valuable (in regards to your application for a job) if you have a demo that is in some way related to games, rather than a piece of paper saying you know a bunch of stuff. A degree doesn't necessarily teach you all of the skills you refer to. Also it's not often interpreted, by employers, as stating that you have good teamwork skills etc. A demo on the other hand says you've got alot of commitment, energy and passion and a willingness to learn, experiment etc.

I'm currently deferring my studies at uni (2/3rds through maths degree) simply because I'm a bit tired of studying and need to do some full time work...I'm very familiar with what is taught in a comp sci, or maths degree. Let's talk hypothetically here, but if I WAS in charge of hiring at a games company, and a raw comp sci graduate came up asking for a job (with piece of paper in hand) and a high school graduate with a full game demo on his application applied for the same job...I'd be hiring the guy with the demo.

Having said that, a university degree is not useless and I wouldn't advocate that they are - it's just there are few degrees out there that are totally pertinent to games development.

In regards to the software engineering trend...I both agree and disagree. IF (and this is an IF) you want to get into the big industry, the nature and size of products these days and the complexity of the technology requires a high level of the application software engineering processes (however I hate it when people assume that software engineering means using an object oriented language). But there are other facets of the industry which are emerging as viable businesses that require less software engineering and more all-round game development skills (the growth of the independently distibruted industry is worth noting).

quote:Originally posted by Maitrek

In regards to the software engineering trend...I both agree and disagree. IF (and this is an IF) you want to get into the big industry, the nature and size of products these days and the complexity of the technology requires a high level of the application software engineering processes (however I hate it when people assume that software engineering means using an object oriented language). But there are other facets of the industry which are emerging as viable businesses that require less software engineering and more all-round game development skills (the growth of the independently distibruted industry is worth noting).

Just to kind of add to this - in general a bachlor's degree is needed for immigration for most counties if you ever plan to work outside of Australia. I am unsure if the degree needs to be in direct relation to the field you are working in.

Thanks guys, I think I'm going to go with a piece of paper AND making mods/demos. From what i can see, I really do need to have the technical knowledge, but i also need 2 build a portfolio that clearly demonstates my work and potential. I've already got a degree, so I think I'm going 2 do post-grad Software Development @ RMIT next year - 18months and i get a Masters of Technology (and hopefully some decent experience, apparently it's pretty full-on). I'm gona b a busy gal :) Cheers.

Yep, a degree does help if you want to work outside Australia, do some research regarding working visas if you don't think you'll have good options or oppurtunities here in Aus.

"Get some programming knowledge and code a demo, alot of companies value this much higher than a piece of paper saying you know a bit of software engineering stuff."

IMO the best way to get this programming knowledge is through a software engineering degree. Forget the short game courses too. If your purpose of being at uni is to simply get that piece of paper, then I think you really need to rethink your attitude. You will only get out of the degree what you put into it. Sure you may want to teach yourself, but you'll more than likely dive straight in to the fun stuff rather than focus on the "boring" aspects of coding, and you'll likely never even touch on documentation and testing. Its all well and good to mix and match some tutorials and put together a demo, but you will have no hope in hell if you do not understand fundamentals.

It would be silly to think that an IT graduate would not have plenty of different demos to show prospective employers. Over the past few years I've developed plenty of code, simply because I need to experiement so that I can learn. I don't think any uni graduate is going to simply walk into an interview with a photocopy of their degree and nothing to back it up.

You'll find that teamwork is a main focus in software engineering degrees. I've worked on plenty of group projects, and quite a few focus on using time effiently, task distribution, communication and documentation. Being able to talk to lecturers, tutors and fellow students about the work is invaluable.

All in all you only get results if you put in the hard work, no matter what path you take. Having said that, studying at uni will provide you with a few more opportunities than simply sitting at home with a coding book.

Just my 2c

Hah - you wouldn't be defending computer science degrees if you did the one at Adelaide Uni. I'm not going to go into why I dislike the degree or the department in particular, some of the courses offered are very valuable and well presented. But Computer Science degrees and Sofware Engineering degrees do not teach you everything about programming. Not even close. Real experience on REAL projects is invaluable.

I do agree though that you can learn a bit here and there about software engineering and working in a team, and the Uni environment is good for that (as there is no shortage of people to team up with, unlike in the 'real' world) but completing a Comp Sci degree does not require the programming skills that it used to.

Lastly, however, you are making a few assumptions about my statement. One is that my definition of 'coding skills' does not include software engineering practises (such as modularisation) and team skills. Another is that coding a demo is something that you do on your own, coding a demo can be anything, from working with a team on a mod project to doing some middleware development of a fluid mechanics system with some mathematicians and engineers around. Another assumption you are making about that statement is that I view a University degree as a piece of paper, I do not, but the minimum standard of programmer that comes out of a uni degree is SO low that I wouldn't be able to accurately judge whether they are right for a job based on the degree ALONE (ie some work in their own time in the relevant field tells me ALOT more about you than your degree, unless you got HDs in everything in which case I can will be able to surmise that you are a nut that is very good with academia).

I have more to say about software engineering, but really it's not on topic.

Post-grad diplomas and coursework masters are very intense and accelerated. You cover most of the subjects in an undergrad degree in 1-2 years, and have extra questions in every assignment and exams.

If games is what you want, i'd advise against doing programming after fine arts: it will only confuse people.

"Hey, is this guy/girl a programmer or an artist? What do we get them to do? What do we pay them? etc, etc"

Programming *is* likely to completely change the way you create your artworks, perhaps for the better, and IMHO being an artist/programmer *should* make you very employable, but it may actually make you less employable because you won't fit into a nice, neat pigeon hole.

Just my two cents [:)]

Hmm which unis are good for computer science???

Probably depends on if you mean for post-grad research or undergrad/post-grad coursework.

I think a uni is good for post-grad research if the staff are very active in getting their research published in journals and present their work at academic conferences all over the world.

Coursework stuff is more dependent on teaching skills, which has very little to do with research ability.

NB I'm doing a Masters by Research (MSc) in computer science.

Definately go the CS rather than the games course. Like all uni degrees, the CS course will give you a firm theoretical grounding in the field. A broad knowledge of all aspects of CS will take you further in the long run. For example, I highly doubt a games course would cover anything on language theory or computer organisation. Whilst you may sit there in the lectures or tutorials and think 'what the hell has this got to do with anything?', you'll at some time later come across something, think and back have an epiphany as it all clicks into place.

If after doing a CS degree (and lots of practice and experimenting in your own time) you can't get a job in games, then go for the games course to learn the specifics.

quote:Originally posted by lorien
Programming *is* likely to completely change the way you create your artworks, perhaps for the better, and IMHO being an artist/programmer *should* make you very employable, but it may actually make you less employable because you won't fit into a nice, neat pigeon hole.

Technical Artists are much sort after I think. Maybe not so much in the games industry but in post production. Its always good to have a few artist who can do MaxScript or MEL and write their own tools/plugins that will help all artists on the team and take the load of programmers. These artist also tend to know the limitations and also how to get the most out of engines.

-kul

I agree with Max Script and MEL, they allow people to automate many tasks simply. Same with scripting in general (python, ruby, lua, etc) I'm meaning that an artist with a degree/post grad qualification in CS is a bit of a strange beast [:)]

Just to be completely clear about this I'm not saying there is anything wrong with artists programming at all, my undergrad studies were mostly music, and I taught myself to code because I wanted to make interactive music systems.

IMHO artist-programmers (or vice/versa) are very usefull in communicating ideas between the two groups of people- programmers and artists have very different ways of thinking about things.

Also I think that artist-programmers are the people who are able to make the really spectacular special effects, simply because these effects require the two sets of skills.

I'm not saying "don't tread on my toes" as a programmer at all, just that unless an artist is really dedicated to programming a CS course may not be the best place to be.

This is something that was really good about ACAT (The Australian Centre for the Arts and Technology), they taught composers and animators programming as a means of artistic expression. ACAT doesn't exist anymore- it's Centre for New Media Arts, and while programming is still taught, there is nothing like the emphasis on "art-math" and procedural artwork creation (developing algorithms to help in making artworks) that used to happen there when David Worral was head. Not criticising btw, just this is how I see it.

I don't know of anywhere in Australia that resembles what ACAT was. Please tell me if anyone knows of anywhere (not wanting to change course, just interested)

I am going :) And for sure a meetup will be organised again.

I'll make sure to bring more of my scary friends from AIE, too ;)

I'll be there, hope to catch up with some Sumeans again!

I should be there, depends if I can get in as a student or not...

Me too! I'll be there and drunk off my arse.

I'll proberly be there, 90% sure anyway ;) (Lucky I'm a student ;))

I'll be there as long as we can get enough of a discount to make it cheaper than going to the GDC in the US :P Although there (at this point) seem to be far fewer events/talks that interest me this year compared to last.
CYer, Blitz

should be there (yeah like 90% sure) and would love to have a meetup
Jac, no doubt your reffering to the bunch who you pulled down to the IGDC, who all signed up on the boards afterwards then got bored with posting in a week :P

I would, but I'm in Canada. [V]

Maybe someone can organise a Sumean badge insert which you can print out with your Sumea Name and insert it into the ADGC passholder.

tsk tsk Rahnem, you come down for the IGDC but not the ADGC :P
Kuldaen: you could probably just get a pen and write it underneath your name on the pass :P

Don't forget there are the Sumea t-shirts :)

As for badges - what we did last year was just met up for dinner the night before the conference. We had a meeting point near the check-in for AGDC. That made it nice as by opening day we all knew each other.

well count me in as i just got my conformation email, my pass is reserved and im definetly going :D

quote:Originally posted by Jacana
what we did last year was just met up for dinner the night before the conference.

that was pretty good yeh =) cept for the time it took to get the meal.. damn blue train!

Will the Sumea meet up going to be just around the Melbourne area or at the AGDC? Because I won't be attending the AGDC but would like to meet up with everyone.

well if its going to be one of those night before hand deals presumably just around melbourne somewhere

Just a reminder, if you're not going to the AGDC because of cost/quality concerns, remember an expo pass is only $15 which can get you in to the expo bit to look at the unsigned games, and meet up with people.
It would be good to have an external meetup as well though.
CYer, Blitz

a meet up would be cool, juyst make it somewhere easy to find

yeah, but unless your meeting people the expo is entertaining for all of 12 minutes :(

what about that place we met up for IGDC? seems as good as anywhere (food court on soutbank)

will have to organise getting contact numbers before it start too. ie: 30th at the latest so everyone can get them before the leave if they're flying (like me :) )

I'll get on to it this weekend :) Bit busy atm with the game launch at school tonight! We will be having one (or three)!

i was just checking out your site now, didnt realise you were one of the team.

when are you releasing the game?

Ok!

AGDC runs the 2nd to the 4th - looks like we don't pick up our bags until the 2nd.

I think doing a dinner on the night of the 1st is good (food court at south bank was a good place). Also, what about doing an early lunch on the 2nd. Conference starts at noon so if everyone was able to meet up at the conference center at around 10:45 we could walk over to Crown for food.

Who is in - and when?

im up for both really, but isnt a dinner the night beforehand (ie before the 1st) good because you can meet everyone and have people to talk with etc when the confrence starts the following day?

I'm so thrifty that I don't fly in til ~11:00am on the 2nd. [:(]

Scott.

the 1st is the day before. the conference starts on the 2nd.

ooooh i thought it meant the 1st day of the confrence

i would be around for dinner/ catch up on the 1st dec (wednesday) (though now i have a job, my 'leg humping' may be a bit diminished)

If the food court on the 1st is set in stone can we start seeing some times and a map of where it is would be nice.

Melbourne Noobie here [V]

Well, the prototype I'm working on ('The Death Of Freedom') is going to be there at the expo (for best unsigned indie) :).

Here is a map:
http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1773&whichpage=3

This one was done for Freeplay so the place listed for the conference is not where AGDC is.

AGDC is being held off the left side of the map. Easiest way to get there may be going to the conference center, going across the river and following crown along the river. Southbank is across the street from Crown Casino.

If anyone wants I can meet them at AGDC building at 6:30 pm and then we can meet up for food at Southbank at 7:00pm.

FYI - my mobile number is 0413 657 583

Hi loch,

You need to post this message on the following forums if you haven't already done so...

http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~hg/forum/

http://www.racesimcentral.com/

http://www.bhmotorsports.com/

http://www.motorsportgaming.com/

http://www.granturismox.net/forum/index.php?sid=e6f1490f4ebaa1491557691…
(Even though this is primarily a GT forum many other racing games are discussed).

All the best, I hope things work out for you.

I bought the first one, great game.

didnt it win game of the year at E3?
i dont know the story- but seems weird it is having trouble getting a publisher.
good luck.

PowerSlide was a brilliant original game, alas all the programmers involved in the original have long since left Ratbag - They all were gone by Feb 2001. And so ended the partnership of a brilliant group of individuals. I was _extremely_ lucky enough to work with them for a short while, and I really dont think you can build a PowerSlide 2.. without those people. It just wont be the same.. Sure it may look nice, and might even drive ok, but it wont have that X factor.. that only comes along once in a blue moon..

Thanks for the links Red5, will do.
Grover damn i wish you were wrong about the original crew. Never know, could be even better [:0] at least we'd get some wild track designs (thats if they decide make it) heres hoping!

anyway thanks for your help here everyone.

oh yeah i thought i would post i picture for ya

[img]icon_paperclip.gif[/img] Download Attachment: [url="http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/attached/loch/2004101953735_powerslide_05…"]powerslide_053003_4.jpg[/url]
61.87 KB

I'll (probably) be there.

Yeah I'll be there with bells on.

Programmers (preferably those who talk) would be great to see along too.

Cheers,
Paul.

ergh, I'll try to be there, but a friend's having a birthday lan opn the saturday beforehand...

Should be fine though if the lan finished before sunrise and I can get _some_ sleep.

only 5 days to go, dont forget to tell your friends.

I might be able to get myself there, see what happens.

quote:Programmers (preferably those who talk) would be great to see along too.hahah - I can talk a load of garbage? Does that count???

quote:hahah - I can talk a load of garbage? Does that count???

Yeah, as long as you can talk. You could be speaking in tongues for all I care, just make some noise. :)

Cheers,
Paul.

yay meetup is on today,

if someone has music they like to listen to please bring a cd or something.

/me is exited

interesting day today,, 8 people showed, which is good, im still waiting for some ratbagians to get off there bottom, they've showed interest but there communication channels may be broken, so word isnt getting to them.

[url]http://www.grit.net.au/adelindie/forum/default.asp[/url] - Adelindie has been down for the last month, so that communication channel was stopped. thankfully it is up and running again.

was generally a good discussion day, at about 4:30 we got asked to leave the est. much to my agrivation( i will have words with the manager). sorry to the people who showed up after that and couldn't find us.

we moved downstairs to the Adelaide Central Arcade food court where i got one and a half pies from a girl mistaking my order(cheered me up heaps :O)

and 2 people found us downstairs, yay!.

then that food court closed at 5:30 so we had to relocate, to find that the uni-bar was closed aswell.. we decided to call it a day.

it was a good day in all and im sure that people are happy they came again.

and to all the other adelaide people out there i would like to see less apathy and more action.

i had 6 different pens in my pocket today, when i got to my dad's place his wife said to me
"1 pen and you are studying,
2 pens and you are in highschool,
3 pens and you are in university,
4 pens and you are a pen salesman."

my dad later said something like "6 pens and you own a pen factory" hehe although i dont think that one counts.

have a good day all and see you another time.

I hope so, I've played System Shock2 to death

Bioshock. Could this be System Shock 3?

This lets you know whats going on.

http://www.gamebiz.com.au/news.php?action=display&id=5004

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/bioshock/preview_6110044.html?q=1&tag…

[:0]

The "spiritual successor" to System Shock 2.. probably because of the headaches of getting the System Shock license ?

I read this a few days back. However, i did notice this little bit in the article [:p]: "BioShock is not a sequel to any of the System Shock games, nor does it have any official relation to those games."

It will be kind of similiar but wont have much (if not any) relation to the System Shock story. But i am sure we can expect more zombies and what not.

Just to make it loud and clear, this is NOT System Shock 3, but a similiar sort of gameplay genre, roleplaying first person action [:p].

www.systemshock3.com

A little bit of DNS searching and voila!

registered: 08-OCT-2004 (Registered and hosted by 1&1 Internet)
registrant-firstname: Bill
registrant-lastname: Koch
registrant-street1: 850 Driftwood AVE
registrant-pcode: 47203
registrant-state: IN
registrant-city: Columbus
registrant-ccode: US
registrant-phone: +1.8123783768

Its the first time SystemShock3.com has been registered as a domain. Yet BioShock has been in development for around three years, wouldnt Irrational have registered it a long time ago as a security reason [:p]. I think it might be a fake website. Anyway, if you can prove me wrong that Bill Koch works at Irrational, please do! [:p]

quote:Originally posted by Blitz

Is anyone considering going to Game Time, and if so what interests you there? I'm thinking of just going to the keynote (Tetsuya Mizuguchi) on the friday night since it's only $15, don't think i'll bother with the $75 for the rest of it though.
Other thing, i think the Game Time website is one of the poorest websites i've seen in a long time! It contains very little information on what the whole thing is about, and what is happening, PLUS, at least in Internet Explorer, the popups that describe the schedule/speakers are too small to fit all the information and don't allow scrolling/resizing!!! What kind of monkeys did they get to put this website together!
CYer, Blitz

For the complete geeks out there I'd like to point out that Ken Perlin is *the* Perlin, of Perlin Noise fame... [url]http://www.noisemachine.com[/url]
No idea what he's talking about this time, but I saw him at GDC a few years back and he was pretty good

http://www.sumea.com.au/sdevelopers.asp

[:D]Wow, that was fast. UR good! I have been searching this site and others and you end up goin in circles trying to find wats under yer nose. Cheers.
Any other suggestions for contacts or sites that may help are welcomed.[:)]

You don't have as much opportunities if you want a game dev job in Sydney, but it's not all too bad.. For game development on PC and/or console, I'd try...

Team Bondi (not sure if they're hiring atm, but they'd be on top of my list)
Perception (could be hiring, especially experienced Unreal level editors)
Microforte (hiring lead artist)
Strategic Studies Group (not sure)
Imaginary Numbers (hiring artists)

and for mobile gaming, I'd try...

Spectrum Wired
Viva La Mobile

Now, I don't know if they have openings for design positions, but you've got nothing to lose trying!

SAE Brisbane website:
http://www.sae.edu/home/mainframe.php4?

SAE Audio Engineering Diploma website:
http://www.sae.edu/home/entry.php4?pageid=30&

SAE are pretty much the top of the line as far audio engineering goes. But you do pay for it!

I know of 2 people who have finished SAE courses in audio engineering. The commments I heard from them where that it's a very challenging course. They also learnt heaps of things! You do get a lot of time in their studio to work on your projects. Which would be the main reason it costs so much. Overall I'd say if you have the money, sign up and finish the course! You will have to work hard but you will learn heaps! I would recommend it to anyone who is serious. Although I dont know anyone who has done the course in Brisbane. But I'm sure it will be top notch as SAE has a name to live up to.

However, their are also cheaper alternatives. I'm not sure what is available in Brisbane. But here in Melbourne I studied "Sound Production" at RMIT. It was a 1 year full time course that covered most things that SAE do. However, it was more focused on small group settings and not much alone or one on one time like SAE. I also think some topics where not covered as much in depth as could have been. On the plus, the teachers were awesome with many years experince in the audio industry and could anwser any question we threw at them. At the end of the day I learnt all the basics. I then spent all my hard earnt money (that I could have payed for SAE) on equipment to setup my home studio and business.

I would think about looking into other courses around Brisbane. Just to see whats out there. But if you have the cash to spare, dont think twice go to SAE!

For me, money decided where I studied. Lookin back on it and weighing up the cost I dont regret studing at RMIT one bit. Having said that you will be hard pressed to find a better audio engineering course than SAE. However, for the record I payed about $600 for the year at RMIT (TAFE sector, btw). Compared with the many thousand at SAE.

Best of luck in help choosing the right audio engineering course for you brother. I hope I have helped.

Cheers

One thing I forgot to mention, is that regardless of where you study it's extremely difficult to find work in a recording studio. Live sound is easier. But either way it's extremely hard to break into the industry.

One of my friends that finished SAE gets occasional work recording bands in studios. But the thing is he has to find the bands to record. It's not like he works as an engineer in a studio. He works freelance because there just ain't enough jobs for in-house audio engineers.

I thoroughly suggest doing the CertIV (diploma) course at SAE.

Yes, it IS intensive, but the amount of knowledge you cover is extremely valuable. I recently graduated - still waiting for my grades, but I think I got over %90 average.

The course is one year full time (only 2 weeks break for christmas) and quite intensive. We covered subjects such as Sound Theory (acoustic, digital), Psychoacoustics, Acoustics, Audio Analysis, Remixing, Post PRoduction, Mixing, Mastering, recording both on analogue and digital in 8, 16 and 24 channels. ProTools, Cubase, Logic Audio, Reason and basic music theory as well as a little bit of graphic design and web development.

If you are serious about a career in the game industry in audio, most AAA companies won't look at you unless you have some form of accreditation from an Audio Engineering course, specially for sound design.

Your brother could always take the CertIII for 3 months and test the waters to see if he likes it, the information learned from that is quite valuable too! He can then continue on to do the full CertIV for an upgrade fee.

Alternatively, he could think about attending other course providers such as JMC college in Sydney and Melbourne, though their course is not as informative as SAE in one year. It takes 2 years to cover the same amount of information, and costs $8000 a year.

As for finding work, it's about how persistant you are, and dedicated, and who you know and network with. Same as any job in these sorts of industries. Of course, the better you study and the more effort you put in the better your grades and the more likely you are to attract a prospective employer's attention.

hey there guys-

yeah, he is doing the cert3 there for 3 months then doing the diploma.
saying its really good so far.
thanks for your feedback.

A few more questions:

1)If there is a contract and/or NDA to be signed, do the students get to see it/take it away for legal advice before having paid any fees (including non-refundable "administration" fees)? Does the institution encourage students to seek legal advice before signing? What happens if a student refuses to sign without alterations?

2)If there is a sponsor company, how many of the institution's graduates have they hired? How many are still employed by the sponsor in a full-time capacity?

3)Have the institution's staff made real and peer recognised contributions to their personal fields of expertise?

You got a good list of questions there, Lorien. Looks like you're looking out for the interest of other students [;)]

For the lazy, here's the list that the GDAA provided. It would be great if all courses provided a FAQ which answered these questions..

The following checklist has been prepared for students and parents to use when reviewing potential game courses and educational institutions.

What links does the course have with the games industry?

Is there anyone in the game industry that could be spoken to regarding the course?

How long has the institution been offering games courses?

Have any of the graduates found work in the industry? Where are they now working?

Does the course offer separate specialized programming and art streams?

If they offer a programming course, does it teach 3D game programming using C and C++?

If they offer an art course, does it teach 3D game art production?

Does the course explore game console development rather than just PC development?

Is the development software that is used in the course also used in the games industry?

If the answer is yes what development studios are using this software?

Is the equipment at a sufficient level to run this type of software?

Do the tutors/lecturers have any professional industry experience?

If they do, where was it and for how long?

Does the institution have any other links with the games industry apart from course development?

Thanks Souri [:)]

And another question:

If the course offers a programming stream, is it accredited by The Australian Computer Society- http://acs.org.au ?

Some questions about the document itself:

1)Is this a document with any student input?
2)If so, what student organisations were asked to assist in preparing it?
3)Do the organisations involved have a record of helping students?
4)Might this be a list of questions an institution might like to be asked?
5)Does the GDAA's website look funny if you leave out the "www."?

I think that 'Scaling up to More Sophisticated AI Without Overburdening Developers - Lessons Learned' (Marc Atkin) would be interesting. Wheather I can actually go in another question ;) Prices are quite different compared to 'Free-Play' :D

quote:Originally posted by James A. Burke

Prices are quite different compared to 'Free-Play' :D

yeah you might say that :P
i got into AGDC last year as a journo as i was working a journalist job at the time, now... godammit theres irony in there, dont buy games so you can go to the game makers confrence :P

Has anyone heard anyhting about when they are going to announce the competition details for this year. I'm part of a student team wishing to go down and enter our game as part of the indi comp.

They were supposed to announce them last month.

so far the people who have rsvp'd are

Myself TyKeiL
Bane_Star
Shannon

I'll be there, assuming I wake up in time.

I should be there too.

Tho its more than two weeks away so that's not 100%...

I'll update this post if anything cahnges though.

Although I'm no developer I'll rock up none the less (at least to catch up with some familiar faces)

hey nice, good to have you on board Maitrek.
that makes 6 confirmed attendee's and 4 unconfirmed attendee's with a couple of people i know unable to make it due to prior stuff..

ive been working on a character movement controll design issue which i will discuss with the group to get feedback on.
will be interesting..

booking confirmed at a generous estimate of 10 people. coffee's and coctails

hold up, misinformation has been getting around the numbers are much greater than this,, about 12 to 14, i will have to re confirm the booking,
i will be back with a more accurate update

ok ok, 16 people the place is booked for, i found more attendee's over at
http://www.grit.net.au/adelindie/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2&whichpage=2

and was in town today walking around the place and i found the location of the next one!! which i can almost say that it is an even better venue than this one.(more details next month)

yay for adelaide's cafe/resteraunt industry being what it is.

update: everything's going smoothly forward, i have avenues to exlore should i choose to
ie:
non profit organisation :O)
sponsorship
advertising with fliers in internet cafe's

i had needs of a piece fo paper with all the details on it the other day when a bunch of ratbagians turned up in the resteraunt that i work in, i had to quickly write it on a piece of paper for them =P

the guy i gave it to was very friendly tho said he would send it round the workplace :O) thanks buddy whatever your name was...

onto work now, i have a split shift today and tomorrow if anyone feels like coming into work
131 pirie street city Fasta Pasta.

see you all soon. and see all the sumeans at the next indie game developers conference(that was sooo cool)...

Sorry Maitrek & I didn't make it :(

Heading back from a rallysprint, Maitrek got a puncture, only to find out that his car has one of those damn "space saver" spares. Being over 100km from home, yet alone Adelaide, we couldn't make it on time.

Can anybody briefly cover what was discussed?

[:)] the meetup was a success in my opinion. it started off rocky then things smoothed over for the end,

there were 11 attendee's and only 4 of them were from the last meeting so it was a fairly new bunch of people to get to know. made things nice.

last time the majority of people were programmers, this time it was mostly artists which is a nice change. i think the numbers were 4 fine artists,4 3d artists, and 3 programmers. of cource everyone does a little cross genre work here and there.

paul and john brought in there portfolio's for people to browse over there lovely artwork.

it was your usual meet and greet event discussion was strong.

at 4pm i got up and did my presentation on character motion controll idea's, it was another step for me on my way to better public speaking and presentation skills.

idea's were presented shortly afetrwards to bring in any projects there stuck on or aspects they need verbal help on. odds are that someone could either give you directions or send you in the right direction

idea's were discussed for art workshops for people to practice there skills and exchange tecnique's, im thinkign that this idea can be made to cross many aspects of art ie 3d, 2d, traditional. will be interesting to see where this goes.

things to remember for next time:
make sure the music stays at a good level, it was turned up halfway through the meeting and i had to take steps to see it stayed at a good level.

not wait for latecomers... some people didnt turn up.

all in all it was good all round and from the people i talked to at the end they thought the same.

enjoy the month and i will be back in two weeks with information for the next one.

Hey,

I just wanted to say I had a good time at the meeting. It was interesting to see a range of people in terms of skills.

I think it would be cool in future for people who have done some work to be able to bring it in and have it discussed. Like a forum, but live...

btw I was one of the 3d artists :)

ok the details for the meetup no 3 will be put up tomorrow so people subscribed this thread please note: there will be a new forum thread for the new meetup

I'll move this into the game industry/education section. I'll also make it sticky until someone answers it!

I went a while ago so they have restructured it. Take this as a rough guide and not too solidly :)

1. First year? Beginners Animation with Max? My folio just had some 3d art and some multimedia work (websites and flash work from college). Nothing overly great, but they liked it enough. Of course at that time they were looking for people to join up instead of turning them away. I landed more towards the liked scale, but not loved :) There were always technical problems in the first year as they were running NT4. They fixed that up in the second year I went there. Most of the students there were really cool and willing to help out and show their little secrets. That is where you end up learning most things from. I hated the group projects (all three of them from first and second year).

2. Depends what you mean by in depth. Making a walking, talking character? YOu have a very good chance to if you want to give it a shot. Learn all the tricks to making a whole short movie with all the trimmings by yourself? A little less likely :) You get out what you put in. If you just learn what they try to teach you, then that is what you will learn. If you try to push yourself further, you have a very good chance to get further.

3. Don't know. Never thought about it. Probably will never know. You do realise you will be moving from hole to another don't you? (personal oppinion)

4. Not sure if their are any new ones in the AIE area, so probably Civic. EB, Rev CD and your usual large department stores.

5. Didn't live on Campus. Didn't know anyone who did. Can't help you out with that one. Try calling CIT and asking them.