General Chat

D'oh - just realised this is a re-post

*sigh* !

It's ok Maitrek. Just glad you're posting here again [;)]

Glad this place is still around ;)

Just wondering with all of this touch-screen gaming tech coming out (well that Nintendo thing anyways) does that mean that we'll see some interesting games made for tablet PC's? I've got a nice new tablet now and it would be cool to have some games that take advantage of the pen interface.

After-all, the pen is mightier then the sword. :-)

Why don't you make your own game for yer tablet PC ya slacker :P

I think in reality, if touch screen gaming was going to be a big thing, Palm would have hit upon something that works already :) There are tuns of games on the Palm, and many that take advantage of the pen, but the thing is that it makes more use as an office tool (the touchscreen interface). You can do many more simultaneous things with buttons and joysticks, than you can with a pen. And thats usually the main limitation in gaming interfaces - multiple input controls.

While multi-touch point touchscreens are great and improve upon that, there is still the issue of control. Being able to hold a device and control it at the same time. Its just not well suited to touchscreens on handhelds. I think the larger touchscreens are likely to be a boon for designers and architects though - esp car designers and so forth.

I can see your point, handhelds are probably not going to be able to take advantage of multi-touch in a gaming context. But having said that, with the right combination of touch screen and current 'ordinary' interface tools there could definitely be an improvement made in the gaming experience

I realise there are physical limitations, holding arms up (if the screen was vertical) for any extended period of time is going to be tiring. Also looking 'downwards' if the hands are to rest on the screen (mounted on an angle) is probably not preferable either. But then, the way computers were originally set up wasn't very ergonimical either, and a multi-tude of improvements to keyboard, mouse and even desk/screen design has ensued to ensure that they are more comfortable.

Also the reason i think this could be bigger in the future, is because there *will* be a demand for development of multi-touch technology and interfaces due to the (likely) demand from - as you said - architects, designers, artists, engineers etc. If there is a demand at the upper level of the market, then there will be money spent on research and development, and the technology will gradually filter down to the lower-cost end of the market and the general consumer level.

Maybe I will attempt to make something for a tablet PC. Though in reality I have to make something first, then port it to use a pen input.

A milsim would be an ideal candidate for using a pen input don't you think Grover?

Look at Warfare Incorporated for the PalmOS/PocketPC for a great example of milsim with pen interface.

However you just can't simulate npen input with a mouse. For example, playing Bejewelled on Palm vs PC is amazingly different. The pen input is far more natural.

Yeah. So true mcdrewski - the actual experience of palm games vs their PC counterparts is substantially different. I still think personally, with handhelds, the best bet is buttons (for gaming). Close and many accessible buttons allow for varied input control. I also agree with Maitrek, but there are some classic examples where input has remained constant, and most of these input devices are hand/finger input only devices.

Keyboards for example have been touted as becoming obselete for many many years.. yet they remain. Even speech recognition was going to dent this input device heavily. It didnt - and mainly because of the flexibility of input combinations and simultaneous input combination. (Also doesnt help speech recog still has a fair way to go yet :) ).

Individually speech recog and other systems, cant replace the simultaneous input approach of the keyboard (although that multi-touchscreen can!). What I mean by this, is that with a keyboard you can easily and very quickly do many different seperate operations within a single set of keystrokes. Even mouse oriented input is limited to a smaller subset of individual inputs. Its a combination of various inputs that can improve overall input systems, but there simply isnt a general replacement of keybased input.

Of course for handheld game systems, you have the added problem of control and handling the device itself. In some ways you get an advantage with the pen/touchpad interface, letting you do accurate control input - for example fine writing, pixel accurate placement, and so forth. But in doing so, you then reduce your ability to have complex simultaneous input like a keyboard or a multi-button device. To be honest it surprises me handhelds dont have more 'shoulder' type buttons, or even joysticks/control slides for fingers other than the thumbs, although there is a limit to the amount of buttons/elements you want a user to have to 'learn' how to use.

Im not sure but I think Daemin was referring to Mil/Sim industry type apps rather than actual RTS games or the like (Although Warefare Inc looks awesome!). A couple of systems I have looked at and worked on, actually do use touchscreen interfaces. Things like radar tracking, IR recog systems, flight simulations all often have an array of touchscreen input devices (although not often pen like). For a milsim strategy app (Defense related), you are much better targeting PC/Workstation. The sorts of machines those things run on, will not yet fit in your hand, let alone your house :) .. but if you were referring to a RTS type game.. sure.. give it a whirl, like Mcdrewski mentioned Warfare Inc looks like a great example - I also once played a TA-like copy on a Palm, it was pretty enjoyable.

To raise another point though, and this is perhaps a little 'flakey' - I would kind of prefer if games used less 'different' inputs, and focussed more on being able to experiment and 'play' in the game world with the inputs already available.

I mean, what *improvements* have been made to the first person genre (not just shooters) by adding extra inputs? We just have extra buttons for crouch, lay prone, 'scrolling' through weapon choice, maybe grenade, bleh. In short, very little has actually been added to the experience, yet in Half-Life 2 an extra weapon that was added totally changed the dynamic of play, without having to add another extra input. (not that i really want to talk up Half Life 2 much, because i thought it was a little dull).

Yep. Definitely. Its really a combination, but that goes for all software development. Finding that ideal balance between gameplay, graphics, audio, input(control), longevity and immmersion (im sure theres probably more to add to that list too). And usually its highly dependant on the game itself - Tetris really doesnt need 15 buttons, two joysticks and a mouse to play :) And like Maitrek mentions, the addition of a single ingame feature can enhance the gaming experience much too. One game I think that really shows off the simplicity of input, is eye-toy. While it is technically a complex input device, it really has very limited input capabilities (see rant above). But some of the inventive uses of that device are quite fun games to play (baseball is brill :) ).

However, I think in overall terms, you need to scope input for the 'worst case scenario', where you expect an application that needs to have many inputs. A handheld really needs to have this - maximise the number of possible uses, rather than limit to specific uses. Imho (and I know some dont share this opinion) the Palm series of handhelds are a perfect example of this. Had the Palm Pilots been given a little more ergonomic thought to its use in gaming, it would have easily become a gaming handheld giant. However, it was squarely targeted at office use (which is entirely fair enough) and so its applications developed more along that path.

I guess the interesting question is whether such a device can cross both areas of use with office and gaming applications being able to be comfortably used/played. NGage was a horrible failure at this (I did a racing game for it, man talk about a design hell).. but I wonder if something like the NDS can cross over into office use readily? I suspect its limited mem (internally) and processing capabilities are not ideally suited to things like spreadsheets, and such (you really need an FPU). Will be interesting if any products manage to make this crossover.

I think it's generally assumed that the only piece of technology that can cross-over between gaming and work is the 'PC'/laptop. Which, i agree, is a bit narrow-minded.

Here's another touch screen demo (well, they use a projector to get a bigger screen, and the pad is touch sensitive). Using hand gestures and voice commands to play Warcraft 3, which seems to be a pretty cool way to play rts's.

http://hight3ch.com/post/new-game-panel-warcraft/

I must have asian blood in me - that top 100 is pretty much smack bang on mine.

Half Life 2 would be thrown in there somewhere along with Disciples 2 & *maybe* Morrowind for my list but thats pretty much about it.

Nothing familiar on that list apart from Chrono Trigger,
which I really enjoyed, although it was never officially
released over here.

Disciples II - great game, very atmospheric. Reminds me
that I might hunt down the expansion packs.

Yees! Three entries for Metal Gear Solid..woop! and No.26 For snake Eater :)

Interesting, but you would expect japanese gamers to steer cleer of western games for the most part, not that they don't like them but they have enough of their own to fill up such a list. I am however suprised about No1 in that list and no Castlevania???

Majority of those games would be in my top 100, then again its probably because I grew up in tokyo as a kid and I'm half japanese. I love all the FFs and Dragon Quests. Resident Evil rocks too it was called Biohazard when I was playing it in Japan was very scary for me back then. Western games has always had a hard time in Japan I'm not sure why.

I think the list is pretty spot on. Very much RPG focused. I noticed Wizardy was quite high on the list, no pokemon entry before 50. I think the #1 game is spot on. I watched Joel play through X and then I played X-2. Must stay that was the first game to make me cry.

Was suprised to not notice Katamari on there!

I think the list is more influenced by a more 50/50 gender split in gaming. If this were a list of western games there would be at least 20 FPS games on it.

quote:We found just four games designed outside Asia, and only one in which the version that was sold in Japan, was actually created outside Japan. The Wizardry, Sim City and Tetris Japanese versions were all created locally while Grand Theft Auto can claim to be fully non-Japanese.
While the japanese versions of these games might have been made in japan, wouldn't that have been more about localising a version of the game rather than making from scratch? I don't think this makes the game a Japanese game.

quote: list is more influenced by a more 50/50 gender split in gaming. Definitely a huge influence, but don't forget about the huge dominance of console gaming (as opposed to PC gaming) in Japan and the love of fantasy-themed games which make up almost all of the top 30.

And Microsoft wonders why the Xbox isn't a success in Japan.

Just another post to add in this thread on why Japanese gamers might not be laching on to Western games. Ubisoft CEO has lamented on the way Western games are treated in Japan and is giving up on breaking into that market. [url="http://www.joystiq.com/2006/04/14/the-great-schism-eastern-vs-western-g…"]From Joystiq[/url].
quote:"the titles coming from Europe and the United States are tagged as 'foreign games' they are not seen as 'normal' games. There is a special section for games coming from export markets and that is not helping us at all."

I don't know if I'll boycott Xbox360, but I certainly can't see myself spending more than $100 for a game. I've done that only once or twice in the last decade.

I [url="http://sumea.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3510"]briefly mentioned[/url] my opinion on this in a recent thread. Two days after doing so, I visited an EB store and noticed only one Xbox360 game priced at $99.95 and the rest were either $109.95 or $119.95. Around one-third of the titles were $119.95.

This is ridiculous.

The way I see it, rising development costs cannot possibly justify a price hike. Does a ticket to a blockbuster movie cost more than a ticket to a lower-budget film? No. Do TV stations put more ads in higher-budget shows? No. The reason that these higher-budget productions are made is because, presumably, they draw a wider audience and thus, are more profitable (I don't want to get into a thing here about creative integrity). If next-gen prices must increase to meet rising development costs, it can only mean that the audience size is not growing proportionately. If this is the case, I must ask the question:

Why are next-gen development costs increasing at all?

If we want to increase our audience, we need to lower prices. Dramatically. Non-gamers and casual-gamers are used to paying $10 - $15 for a box-office ticket, $20 - $40 for a DVD, $20 - $40 for a music CD. These people aren't used to forking out $120 for a single title. Doesn't matter how many ads you put on TV, nor how many good reviews a game gets, nor how many friends play the game - they ain't gonna do it. The Lord of the Rings movie trilogy cost over $700 million to produce. $10 gets you a ticket for each film, and $70 gets you all three films on DVD. Profit? Billions. Why? Huge audience.

Oh, and I don't agree that it's easier to justify with games because you get 50+ hours of content. Non-gamers and casual-gamers don't think in these terms. Especially when there's really little relationship between budget and length anyway. I finished Halo 2 in a few casual evenings. I've spent hundreds of hours playing Civilization.

I think the problem here is that while lowering prices would be great for the industry, it wouldn't be immediately beneficial to the publisher/console manufacturer that attempted it - they would have to wait for the snail's pace migration of DVD shoppers to the Games shelves before it paid off. Most likely, they would have to lose money to help the whole industry grow, while their compeditors feed on the new growth. Doesn't sound like good business sense to me. The fact that all existing gamers, myself included, continue to pay $100 for mediocre titles doesn't help either. Microsoft knows it can do this and not lose much of an audience.

Wow, this is getting very ranty. I had more, but I'm gonna finish it here.

I found this a little odd:

The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion
PC: $89.95 ($99.95 for Collector's edition)
Xbox 360: $109.95 (?? for Collector's edition)

The interesting thing to note about this is that both version of the game are identical - so where does the extra $20 come from? In fact, the PC version also includes a copy of the Construction Set, meaning you actually get more with the PC version.

I think it also depends on the retailer. EB are notoriously bad with their prices as they almost have a monopoly right now. They charge that much because people will pay that much, not because it's justified by the development. If the developers saw any of the extra $10-20 per unit I'm sure they'd be very happy. :P

Scott.

I seem to remember when both the PS2 and the original Xbox came out, games were often (over)priced at around $10 to $20 more then the average for at least the first few months. It seems to be a common business tactic ? make more money while people are willing to pay extra for the latest product. As initial sales drop, lower the price to a reasonable level.

Surely 360 games won?t stay overpriced for long?

Anyway, I?m planing on avoiding the next gen consoles for as long as I can hold out.

quote:Surely 360 games won?t stay overpriced for long?
dont count on it. EA for one have stated that all their biggest next-gen titles will cost more, saying: "We believe premium titles demand a premium price" or some bullshit like that. Funny thing is that so far their 'premium' next gen titles often have less content (and even in some cases less gameplay quality) than their current gen alternatives, causing many an website to question the validity of their reasoning.

I'm writing about this issue in The Age and SMH for the 360 launch. When approached for comment to justify the pricing, nearly all Australian distributors ran for cover.

We all know the costs of development are rising exponentially and something's gotta give, but only one distributor was honest enough to say its simply because the installed base will be initially low so they have to hike prices to help cover costs.

The problem is, so many of the launch titles are ports from other platforms, with a $20 or $30 mark up for 360. I don't think consumers will tolerate it.

A multi-tiered pricing strategy that better reflects the actual quality of games is desperately needed. I don't think most people mind paying a premium for must-have blockbusters.

Jason

ooooooou money money money money....

<.< dudes that?s all it's about. The developer might have a passion and interest in games. But the publishers, distributors, manufactures and transporters don't give a crap about play value of the dvd cased game. They don't see "one fantabuious rocken-cool game" [<--- had to XD]

They see 300,000 copies. They see 2 million dollars profit. Therefore if an extra $20 on top of that mill make them 2.4 million instead, and they know that people initially will accept the price hike. Then rest assured they WILL do it for as long as they can get away with it. However if people don't buy their games and they only make say 1.5 million with the $120 titles then business wise the price will decline back to standard.

Games like many products work on the [quality = Price tolerance] idea. The higher the game quality is [and for the common man that equals graphics and visual thrills. Not game play, anyone noticing the popularity of Black?] the more people are willing to accept a higher price. This is why people pay ridiculous amounts of money for rare cars. The price is never justified except in the heads of those who buy it.

It's squarely on the consumer and how they will react. And personally with Australia?s "We don't like it but were not gonna do anything about it" attitude. I think the prices will stay around the $110 - $130 area.

quote:Originally posted by flyingdoormat

The problem is, so many of the launch titles are ports from other platforms, with a $20 or $30 mark up for 360. I don't think consumers will tolerate it.

I agree, it just doesn't make sense for any consumer to buy a nextgen port that has a substantial price markup when the game itself is only marginally better visually. In some cases, the game is worse than their current-gen couterpart. EA is the main culprit here with their nextgen ports like Fifa, NBA, and Madden having much less game options and features.

The odd thing is that EA then widened that price/quality discrepancy between current and next gen ports by dropping prices for their current-gen titles. What they really should have done, if they were thinking about the consumer, is drop the prices for the next-gen ports.

I agree with TheBigJ, prices for games can't keep going up and up. People will just be buying less and less titles per year. I know the benefits of digital distribution has [url="http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=11975"]been written about a bit[/url] [url="http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20060301/buscaglia_01.shtml"]more recently[/url], but here's hoping it eventually becomes common place and drives the prices down.

$89.95 - $119.95, $40 bux is bugger all. You'd blow that on one trip to the bottlo on the corner for a weekend of beer and sport.

Purchasing a PC capable of running oblivion to match the 360 experience would set someone back $1500 - $2000 if they are a smart shopper. Probably $3000 for the average punter. Its bulky, you need a desk - a whole bunch of other crap comes with.

Xbox 360 == way less, smaller, plug in and go. If I didnt own a PC I had no inkling to do anything with a PC, thats where the real decision lies, a few thousand versus several hundred. As that person I know which choice I would choose.

As me - I'm going the PC route for Oblivion because its cheaper for me, and Im lucky enough to have that option.

The untapped potential - the people out there who dont own a pc or a console - these are the people that Micro$haft, Sony aim at most, with just enough extra to keep existing fanbases happy, who are easily chuffed with a backward compatibility announcement and another release of their favourite titles.

If you are able to think like a corporate monster I think youll understand and accept these things a bit more, if you look at it like an individual, youll think you deserve better and your being hard done by. If your a developer and a hardcore gamer your probably goign to be the worst of the bunch and pissing and moaning * infinity, the words " I remember when... " and " Back in my day.. " spring to mind.

Sneaking up the price every few years, personally I can handle. Now a 50%-100% increase that might stiffen the spine a bit, but a lowsy 10%-20% for games that I *have* to play, thats nothing to bark at - sign me up.

In the words of Caroo ( absolutely 100% spot on dude )

" The price is never justified, except in the heads of those who buy it "

To me it seems like the price increase is more about console politics than an increase in development costs.

When ?console X? is launched with titles that can be bought on other systems, the consumers need a reason to buy that game for ?console X?

One way to do this is to raise the price by $10-20 over it?s competitors so that when it comes time for Joe average to pick between say ?the pc version and 360 version of Call of Duty 2, Joe will come to logical conclusion that because the 360 version is more expensive it must have ..

Better graphics .
Better game play.
More gun/weapon?s/equipment.
Per pixel hair follicle render using sub surface scattering & HDR Lighting .
Fluffy Wuffy towel physics.

Average Joe's already paying $100 for a game so $10 isn?t to much extra to part with for the added bonuses.

oh i forgot gamedaily has a great QA with the creators of savage 2
[url]http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/feature/?id=11975[/url]

quote:We sold over 20% of our copies of Savage 1 online. The funny thing is, we made MORE money from those online sales than we did all the retail store sales.

and just to run a quick comparison of the pricing gap in the market today

Star Wars: Empire at War PC

EB America: $67.00 AUD
EB Australia: $99.95 AUD($90 if you pre order)
citysoftware Melbourne Australia: $76.00 AUD($69.09 without GST)
www.dvdboxoffice.com: $78.01 AUD(includes shipping from Canada)

where does all the money go [V]

Hey Djenx,

Those are fantastic quotes. It is frightening how low the profit made from retail is.

I'm one of those people who hunt for bargains. I don't mind playing older games. I picked up Vampire The Masquarade: Bloodliens for $10 at Dick Smith. It is still about $90 at EB and Games Rush.

damnit i bought that game for full price when it came out and every time i walk into a game store it gets cheeper!

quote:Originally posted by HazarD
Sneaking up the price every few years, personally I can handle. Now a 50%-100% increase that might stiffen the spine a bit, but a lowsy 10%-20% for games that I *have* to play, thats nothing to bark at - sign me up.
This is part of what I see as the problem. You, me, and many of the people on this forum *have* to play these games, so we buy them. Most average gamers I know (and every single non-gamer or casual-gamer I know) doesn't *have* to buy any game, they *want* to buy some games and they *might* buy some games, if they were reasonably priced.

My main point in the above rant was that by increasing the price of the product, you're decreasing the potential audience of the product, quite regardless of how good the product is. If these effects are balanced, profit remains unaffected. You're reducing your audience from people who *would* or *might* buy a game to the hardcore bunch who simply *must* buy the game. But like you said, if you think like a corporate monster, that doesn't matter. Profit remains unchanged.

My concern is not one of "I don't want to pay that much, back in my day, etc...". My concern is for the future state of the industry. Sneaking the price up a little at a time doesn't worry the existing audience very much. The untapped potential, however, doesn't see it this way. They think "Damn, I wasn't prepared to pay for that game when it was $90. Now they want me to pay $120?".

If we continue to sneak the price up and up, the audience stops growing. If this happens, what do we end up with? No room for the little guy, the small time or independant developer - the smaller audience of gamers, all willing to spend $120 or more on individual titles, will be expecting the absolute best quality gaming for their money. With the higher budgets required for these titles, publishers will be less willing to take risks, which could ultimately stiffle creativity.

Personally, I'd be willing to spend plenty of money for the games I play - I usually always get my money's worth. It's not because of my own pockets that I'm concerned about this. I'm concerned about this because I want to see more and more people discovering and enjoying games the way I do. For this to happen, the industry needs to grow.

$40 bux is bugger all.
Lol, come on Troy, almost 1/2 the price again?! Thats a big deal man, what if your rent went up by that percentage, or your salary down by it? lol. [:P]

Just ask yourselves this, how much of that extra cash goes to the developer?
If the increase went into making the games better or paying developers what they are really worth then I could almost see some justification but its more likey just buying some marketing guy a newly pimped golf buggy.

Not that I blame a guy for wanting one of these:
[url]http://community.webshots.com/photo/127358929/1127375786053789465OiWwZO…]

Anyway I digress, while I'm happy to pay the already bloated $90 wad for some gaming goodness I certainly aren't rushing out for 360 games until they get a bit cheaper than that.

Also doesn't help stop the piracy issue, increase the cost, that'll bring them back into the fold?!
Maybe publishers are anticipating the XBox 360 being modded too and trying to recoop some cash from those doing the right thing before they start losing sales?

If my rent went up by $40 overnight I'd find a new place to live! Hence thats the reason we left Teneriffe - rent went up by $50 wtf!

But like everything - theres ALWAYS an alternative.

I agree with Malus although I've got to admit that buggy sure looks cool and i could really use one of those [:P]

Like always just expressing how the price hike effects me, and it doesnt - bring on the games.
I do however agree with you TheBigJ - it cant keep on sneaking up, or could it?

Like shoes, there are $10 dollar pairs and pairs that cost 250k+.

Bizzare comparison you say - well theres a purpose: 90% of the population - you might as well say *everyone* needs shoes todo the things that they do (i know there are those who dont, but for the hell of it) so the consumer market is there to support the massive price range.

Not everyone needs games, and unlike shoes - there probably arent a great deal of gamers out there that are willing to pay 100k+ for a game. Therefor the market is not there to warrant such a huge price range - BUT a $10 - $20 markup - SURE the market is there. watch them eat those new titles up!

There are a other forms of entertainment out there that the general populace find equally or even more stimulating and rewarding.

DVD's -anywhere from $1 - $40 for a single.
whole boxed sets provding 10 - 12 hours of watching will set you back aroun $60 - $150.
Collectors editions with extra goodies for classics or entire seasons of x-files etc will end up costing you hundreds. Movie buffs pay these prices.

Why is it that these movies - *if* good quality linger on still fetching a top price tag. 10+ years after they have been made?

Games dont have that kind of life cycle - Guildwars won awards for its effort, yet in the local EB at a recent sale it was $39.95. Now for a 9/10 90% rating game only a year after its release, AND its an MMO without monthly FEES! to pretty much drop in price by more than 50%. You just cant get much better than that!

Now a hypothetical:

A future development studio puts in motion a dev cycle for the most epic game to date.
Dev cycle 7.5 - 12 years.
The company finishes it - the quality and gameplay are fantastic.
The price on this game is $500 - $600. Given the dev cycle is 500% - 600% longer than *most* and the quality is absolutely outstanding.

Would you buy it?
Would you buy it if a press release was announced that only 35% of the funds are going back to the developer to make more?
Would you now buy it if a press release was announced that 95% of the funds are going back to the developer to make more?
Does the general populace even care how much goes to the developer?

Whens the last time you grabbed something in your household, looked at the made in china sticker on it and thought or even cared about how much money those people make or under what conditions to provide us with thier quality product?

Despite my rambling post - the ultimate point is, Prices go up - until people stop buying, then prices go down to extract the most from the product. How to put something in action to change the cycle ?

intilligent ramblings haz, i hadnt considered that analogy

Some good points HazarD. I'm still not content, however.

The DVDs and boxed sets that fetch large prices generally do so because they've achieved some sort of cult status - they've gained a small, devoted following of fans ready to pay whatever price is asked. In this scenario, everyone is happy. The cult fans get their beloved product, and the company makes enough money from this small group to justify the production. This is, I believe, not an appropriate analogy of the next-gen price hike. Consider the following.

There's a lot of gamers out there who love old games. Let's say there was some old game that had faded into obscurity and the publishers had long since abandoned it. Perhaps a publisher could invest some more money into it - port it to a next-gen platform or make a low-budget next-gen sequel. This game, when released, could fairly be overpriced since it was aimed at a cult audience.

But this is not how the industry works. When games like Sam & Max 2 get cancelled, you can be pretty sure that publishers aren't interested in cult or niche markets. The price of a next-gen game isn't like a pair of expensive shoes or that Robotech DVD collection thats gnawing on your soul with it's $400 price tag. These things are once-in-a-while purchases. With a few exceptions, the next-gen prices seem to apply to the whole range of titles. The games that get the price increase don't necessarily stand out, they don't necessarily have any cult status, they aren't necessarily anything special. This is what I've been ranting about:

They want us to pay more for games that aren't necessarily much better than the games of the previous generation.

The appropriate analogy here is not an increase in your rent, or an increase in the cost of some DVDs, but if all rent increased and the cost of all DVDs increased. Then, you'd have no choice. You'd have to pay $40 more for your rent and you'd have to buy average DVDs at cult prices. Where's the alternative?

Good point TheBigJ, and I see where your coming from.

Luckily at this stage anyway, you do not *have* to pay $120 for a new 360 game if you dont want to. There are other choices / avenues available - all rent and all dvd's havent increased in price, yet [:)]

Lets take a look at some xbox 360 game prices from the places I purchase games.

Dead or Alive 4 - $89.95
Perfect Dark Zero - $89.95
Kameo Elements of Power - $89.95
NBA2K6 - $89.95
NHL2K6 - $89.95
Project Gotham Racing 3 - $89.95

These are hardly prices to bark at - they sound pretty standard to me, but some have been out for not even a month now.
Lets take a look at the some of the prices for game that havent or just been released.

Prey ( pre-order ) - $92.95
Elder Scrolls: Oblivion ( pre order )- $89.95
Fight Night Round 3 - $109.21
Football Manager 2006 - $112.07
Moto GP 2006 - $109.38

The general consensus is - after just a month or so of release the games drop back down to the level I'm used to paying. And some games just arent effected by the price hike at all and for those that are above the $99.95 - bah its $10 odd bucks, if i have to have it, and cant possibly wait for 1 month, I'll have it for 10 extra bucks.

If your wondering where I get these prices and purchase my games stuff from its small shop called Burn. Located right there in the Valley in Brisbane.

www.burn.com.au

However this doesnt solve the problem your outlining TheBigJ - it does however provide a solution in the short term while we mull over an action plan to defeat the *insert cheesy intro music* Next Gen Price Hike!

At the end of the day, it depends on the consumer reaction. If EB is the only store that keeps to the upper price range and the majority of consumers begin shopping elsewhere, they'll notice and drop their prices post-haste. I admit I haven't looked at what prices the smaller shops are putting up, but at EB and Harvey Norman, it's mostly > $100. It's entirely possible that this will just blow over within the first few months as the RRP gets kicked back to $99.95.

Either way, I feel my original point is an important one: Development costs will continue to climb into the following generations. Games on the Xbox720 and Xbox1080 will, presumably, have greater development budgets than that of the Xbox360. If unit prices go up, audience goes down (or at the very least, growth stagnates). If this happens, game titles become less diverse, even more hit driven then at present, etc. If we want to prevent this from happening in the future, we need to think ahead and start cultivating our audience now. In my opinion, the first thing we need to do to achieve this is to start lowering unit prices.

quote:Originally posted by TheBigJ

or that Robotech DVD collection thats gnawing on your soul with it's $400 price tag.

Dude.. you got so jibbed. You can pick up all 86 episodes on 14 dvds remastered for 140-160 dollars at JB hi-fi

The only thing robotic gnawing on my soul is this little thing: http://www.robotech.com/store/viewproduct.php?id=111

Damm driving lessions XD eating my monies!!

I didn't actually buy the Robotech collection, but I've been wanting to for a while. Last time I looked, each 3-DVD series was about $60, coming in at about $420 total. I'll have another look next time I'm in JB :)

It's not like I really have the time to watch all 86 episodes anyway...

How could soul gnawing & Robotech come up in the same post with out mentioning the new Robotech series "The Shadow Chronicles"! for shame [V]

BigJ you might want to wait just a little longer.

I think Hazard has hit the nail on the head. Demand sets the price. Retailers will soon find out if demand matches the price. Although I think in the case of the X360, publishers are already finding there isnt enough software demand. Activision recently annouced a dual pack bundle you can buy. Which is pretty bizarre this close to launch.
http://palgn.com.au/article.php?title=Activision+reveals+bundle+pack+fo…

I think this is a good indicator to what Harard was referring to. If demand isnt there, you dont need to worry about prices staying at 109 buks :) Also, prev gen had things like platinum titles and so forth, I expect we will see similar things happening to cater for people who simply dont want to buy on the leading edge of releases.

It is the publisers that raised the price though, not EB, and i think the reason you can find many games until $110 is simply becuase $90 is still a lot more than the new US$60 price point, which i find interesting - it means we have a nice buffer zone in which to drop prices while else where in the world they go up. But as we've seen with EB there's no garentee this will happen.

Also Hazard, be careful about Burn, i've heared mostly bad things about them. Stories like trying to sell an imported PSP for about $500 and claimg it was not going to be released in austrlia. And the fact that they dont take returns or refunds should say something too. Of course that's all second hand information, i havnt bought from there myself, but the consensus so far seems to be on the negative.

I can't confirm this because I've never worked at a game store before, but I've been told in the past by friends who were EB clerks that the USD-to-AUD price anomaly is actually set by the publishers and distributors, not the retailers here. According to the information I was given, EB simply couldn't afford to sell a game at more than $15 or $20 below it's RRP. If this is the case, then the buffer zone isn't any larger then that of the rest of the world - and the publishers take advantage of our market's relative isolation to make more money off Australian sales (on a per unit level) then elsewhere. This would make the $120 RRP on some next-gen games particularly difficult to swallow.

Does anyone here have game sales experience that can shed some light on this?

As far as I know publishers set the RRP everywhere in the world, so when i was refering to the 'buffer zone' in my above comment, i meant for the whole chain, not just retailers.

Does anyone think theres a relation between piracy and game prices? It seems to me the easier it is for a game to be pirated the cheaper its retail price.

I consider videogame next gen price hikes justified under the current model. The cost of development has increased massively, the audience hasn't. Especially in a transition year with low install bases where product risks are great, its unsurprising publishers are jacking up the price.

Also, for those making comparisons to the movie industry, remember to not stop short at just box office and DVD sales. The movie industry has a much wider range of revenue streams including box office, pay-per-view, VHS/DVD sales, subscription TV, free to air TV, and merchandising. Under this model, even a crappy film is going to have a half decent chance to make some coin (in fact, Uwe Bolle has made an art of it).

So are higher prices "good" for the industry? Thats hard to say.

From my travels, consumers seem trained into the current gen pricing structure, and with little understanding of the cost structure of development Joe Average isn't going to take kindly to his copy of Project Gotham 3 for Xbox 360 costing more than PGR2 for Xbox. That being said, he doesn't have much choice if he wants the latest PGR unless he is prepared to wait for discounts over time.

So, some consumers aren't likely to be happy in the short term, and higher prices are only offsetting increased risks for publishers rather than lessening the volatility of the market. Not industry crash material, but its probably not going to be stimulating growth either.

For the games industry to work in the longer term, the model needs to change. All the way along the chain - from financing, through development, to distribution and marketing. A number of companies are already making some great progress in these areas, and we are seeing some interesting examples of this shift already (Bioware/Pandemic merger, Steam, XBLA).

Exciting times lie ahead for those developers with vision.

But you are stuck with high prices in the short term :)

Pretty much what Mario said ... it's all a result of the standard developer/publisher/distributor model of the games industry.

Hah, yeah thats great, I dont play mmo's myself either but I'm certain the angst in many a troubled young adolescent soul rose sharply that week. Pity their own geek blood must've overuled their capitalist tendancies.

Kinda makes me wanna start playing WoW.............. actually... no... no it doesn't

Haha that is awesome!

I play WoW and I tell you what, if that guild had been oh the server that I am on, there would have been a right ruckus.

It's good to see that people are taking advantage of the game like that, only MMO games can allow it.

And Jackydablunt, good choice, the game is evil...

Not me...Im TOO awesome.
In fact, I once bet a wall in a game of tennis...pretty cool, eh

I think someone is Jealous.

1)Fearful or wary of being supplanted; apprehensive of losing affection or position.

2) a Resentful or bitter in rivalry; envious: jealous of the success of others.
2) b Inclined to suspect rivalry.

3) Having to do with or arising from feelings of envy, apprehension, or bitterness: jealous thoughts.
4) Vigilant in guarding something: We are jealous of our good name.

5) Intolerant of disloyalty or infidelity; autocratic: a jealous God.

i reckon there's supposed to be a metaphor in there somewhere but most of it just comes off as rambling shit

midlife crisis
n. a period of emotional turmoil in middle age caused by the realization that one is no longer young and characterized especially by a strong desire for change

Sure, it's not curing cancer or solving world hunger, but there's a lot worse things I could be doing with my life.

:) Fair enough, so you guys seriously don't agree then? As much as you look into the industry you don't see any essence at all of what I'm talking about? Surely self critisism is the only way to advance, it is the fundamental of any creative work. When I was working on our previous title I was the number one critic, still am, frankly the game annoys the hell out of me, but I fully intend on being that way for the next, and the next, and the next, because as soon as you become content surely you cease to advance and your work becomes stale.

And thats what I see has happened, I go to industry parties and I see a definite completely unfounded elitism within the larger companies, and why? whats it based on? they make games, ok, great... and? seriously, sell the job to me (and to all these guys on here wanting to get into the industry)

Im not saying its a bad job, it can be quite fun actually, and I'd much rather continue to do it as opposed to many others, but why should I smirk and feel like more over people who arent in it, or over companies that make games that are buggy or I may not like, at least they're trying, why does this one skill we have, this one aspect overrule all others?

Yes it is a business and I'm not expecting the larger companies to aid others and all that, thats rediculous, but the primary thing to be drawn through competition is not to crush the opponent, it is to rise above them. Come on if you guys seriously, seriously think you are the shazzaow and cannot improve any further on what you're doing, then you might as well kill yourselves now cause it's gonna be a hell of a boring life.

And why is it that people have such a problem with me speaking negatives?

Jackydablunt... I know where you're coming from ;)

quote:Originally posted by Jackydablunt

As much as you look into the industry you don't see any essence at all of what I'm talking about?

Sure! but I'd guess most creative industries have the twin dangers of not getting any good press, or at actually believing it if you do get any.

I don't think you're babbling crazy talk. I think quite a few developers really do need to get their hands off it. I call it "Hollywood Syndrome"... new (usually) developers have that period where they think they're in Hollywood... their work is all important, critically acclaimed and very clever in their eyes. It's not until they've pumped out a few titles and really damaged themselves with overtime that they usually begin to realize that they're just doing a bread-and-butter job. Work to live, don't live to work.

I frequent most of the trade shows, and the one thing that I absolutely can't stand is the "What ARE you, who do you WORK for?" opener that you'll usually get before anyone will shake your hand. I couldn't think of anything ruder than trying to network for networkings sake. I'll avoid these people like the plague. It's like a girl coming up to you in a bar and asking how much money you make and what kind of car you drive. People that "network" like this usually miss all the "rough diamonds" who then tend to avoid them completely (and who invariably end up being the most useful people).

I also tend not to trust the judgement of people who elect themselves lofty titles (though I've been guilty of this). Producers are usually the worst offenders here. I've always had a bit of a chuckle over the term "producer" (since they're the only ones on the team that don't actually produce anything). These people are project managers. If you ask a Producer to change their title to "Project Manager" and they argue that they should be called "Lead Director of Associate Production", then they're usually too undercooked in the experience stakes.

Devs could really benefit from getting their hands off it. Ego is a dirty word. Nobody wants to work with someone that has a carnivorous ego. And chances are we're not the shiniest buttons in the box. Education keeps getting better and better... kids keep getting smarter and smarter. The students you avoid at shows are likely on their way to being better than you. They'll find their way into the seat next to you at work and they'll remember you as the wank you were when you first met them. :)

Enough ranting for me. *Gets hand off it*

Scott.

quote:Originally posted by rezn0r
I also tend not to trust the judgement of people who elect themselves lofty titles (though I've been guilty of this).

LOL [:)] Likewise [:)] I did like some of the job titles in the dot com era like "software wizard" though.

Obligortary bag of salt- my title atm is

Lorien Dunn
Acting Head
Games Technology Lab
The Applied Computing Research Institute
Deparment of Computer Science and Computer Engineering
La Trobe University

Which is quite a mouthful- though I didn't give it to myself [:)]

Actually Jacky I am now curious to hear how you have been burned and come about this conclusion. Sure Eleetism exists in the games industry but it exists in every other single career path out there but I have to say I see it as an absolute minority.

I attend every IGDA meeting that goes on and see alot of developers happily helping students and hopefulls with friendly advice. I have never seen at one of these events a developer snob a student/unemployed because he felt that they were better then them.

quote: Jackydablunt... I know where you're coming from

Fight the 'man' man

quote: Education keeps getting better and better... kids keep getting smarter and smarter. The students you avoid at shows are likely on their way to being better than you. They'll find their way into the seat next to you at work and they'll remember you as the wank you were when you first met them.

That?s a good point actually, these guys are good, better than me at certain things thats for sure, with the next gen comes more demand, therefore more positions, more and more of these uber talents will enter in and eventually push the stale elitists out, Australia might start to be recognised a bit more and a whole new era of innovation and growth will spur till the next stagnancy arrives, bring it on. If someone's good at what they do and they're humble and empathetic about it, I don't mind working under them.

quote:Sure! but I'd guess most creative industries have the twin dangers of not getting any good press, or at actually believing it if you do get any.

Yeah ok there is a catch with that I agree, but I'm more talking about your own integrity, if you can fully tell yourself you tried to make your end of the project the best it could be then so what if it turned out crap and how dare people condascend.

The guys hacking on me now are right, I do have a personal vendetta in this rant, the last game I worked on wont be released in Aus so most wont play it, but I assure you by the standards of other games it was pretty crap. But when you consider most of the guys in the small team had next to no exp (including the upper echelons) I myself had to design off a crap concept, by myself without any training or exp (I was an average concept artist beforehand), in the kitchen using a bloody mac. We had no official project management, only five coders, one with games exp, and we scraped and redid it all virtually in 8 months, Design to Master build.

Our game is now being released in the US, Germany, Russia, also China and Japan, making it apparently the first Aus title to break the asian market, and although yeah sure it aint a great game (why would it be with what we had), the majority of things I wanted to do didn't make it in, I'm freaken proud of myself and the guys I work with for pulling it off. However whenever I see the smirks from the people in the larger companies when my workmates say where they are, yeah, it pisses me off, they're great guys, some of the best I'll ever know and they don't deserve that.

The same happens with the 'garage' companies, I've heard elitests hacking on guys like Gridwerx and things, where the hell do they get off, thoes guys do it in their own time, they dont get paid (I dont think) yet on tenacity alone they're getting awards for what they've done. I couldn't remain that dedicated myself and Ive got a major respect for thoes guys, I only hope they get Gridwerx running and not have to resort to working for these wankers cause it'll waste them.

quote:I attend every IGDA meeting that goes on and see alot of developers happily helping students and hopefulls with friendly advice. I have never seen at one of these events a developer snob a student/unemployed because he felt that they were better then them.

Oh the guys I'm talking about I don't see at thoes things either cause they'd never dream of wasting their time helping others. The people I'm talking about are at the private parties and the trade shows, and its really the reason I don't go to them much anymore.

Well, what an outburst of pent up frustration ? just don't take it out too much on Lucy ;)

Seriously though, I do agree with you, for all out narcissism, we don't cure cancer and our long hours can not be justified like a doctor's are, who work in hospitals and save lives ? perhaps indirectly we might make some kid's life better for a while, but saying we saved their life would be a real stretch.

I'm a little fed-up with it to be honest, especially the odd times I notice my own ? unfortunately over-inflated egos are a hazard of working in an entertainment industry, and having to deal with them is part of the job, especially the talentless crud with the impressive job-title.

I doubt it will get better with time, perhaps some of the aging dinosaurs of the industry that think they are hot-shit will eventually be forced out of the industry, and that way we won't have to suffer at their incompetence. But entertainment is entertainment, it will always have it share of unjustified egos and complete wankers, just like any other entertainment industry ? film, music, etc.

Personally, I am looking forward to the day I become a hermit living in remote bushland so that the only person and their ego I have to deal with is my own :)

Goes sydney riot style and starts throwing bad spelling motarov cocktails all over the place..

Really.. I have no say in this matter though. I'll keep outta this one.

Im on your team Jackydablunt 100% - what can I say. Getting a look inside the process and inner workings of many studios definately has its advantages from our point of view. And this leetism you speak of *definately* runs high - all over the world.
I encounter it on *almost* a weekly basis from other freelancers who wont take crituque and go on to act and take a stance as if they are better than kalescent studios, or developers who think theyre methods are the be all and end all of game development and that our ideas or methods have no place.

Well you know - some of those freelancers are better and some of the game developers are aces, but is there need to make it so blatantly obvious that your an asshole?

Ahhhh humans - gotta love'em and their mighty egos. [:)]

Viva la 3 people in an apartment working on the next best thing off their own backs!

Allow me to clear up the reason behind my earlier comment: your original post Jackydablunt was mostly rambling shit. that said, i do see where you are comming from, and now that this thread has had some more serious comments i'll make my oppinion heard.

I pretty much agree with rezn0r (who as far as i can tell is making the same point as Jakydablunt only more coherently and back up with examples from experience) - to some extent anyway. But while i acknowledge these egos exist, I dont think it is as bad within the local industry as you make out. I personally have met very few people who fit the descriiptions above, and i have spoken with many higher-up people in brisbane and interstate at AGDC.
The only place I admit to having encounted this sort of thing is at AGDC, where a some people just want to speak to other managers or leads or whatever, while i was left to seek out other students, though i found it a lot better last year (perhaps because i was no longer a student).

But then again, another problem is that i had little way of knowing who of these were from the Australian industry and who were international delegates, which says to me, as MDobele said, you get this world wide and in every industry.

and to perhaps contradict what i just said: maybe some people just dont like talking to random people, and i guess not being a student makes them more comfortable since they know you're not after a job. Therefore i can say with all honesty - the total number of people i have meet at agdc that really came accross as elitist was a very small number, and the majority of these were international delegates.

so, to try and tie this rather disjointed comment together: while i've encounted this a little bit, it was never as bad or nearly as widespread as some people have made it out to be above.
Maybe i've just been lucky, or maybe becuase havnt had to have any business dealings with them, but so far i've found the Australian industry to be largly welcoming. So while i've heard of people encountering these 'egos', i cant really speak from much personal experience.

And to ecko what's been said above about the IGDA:
It's great, i've been to almost every meeting since i first discovered it, and have tryed to become more involved in growing it. Everyone there is friendly and is willing to speak to anyone. And i constantly see students freely being given a months worth of education in a few minutes. It's not about networking (at least not in the strictest sense) and it's a great time to meet new people and enjoy a few drinks, reguardless of experience or position.

I appologise for the long, disjointed, and probably contradictory reply - such are the ramblings of a hungry mind, i'm going to get some dinner.[B)]

Ok well maybe I took a dramatic turn but hey I?m a dramatic guy it?s my job, and you can?t say it didn?t grab peoples attention, hopefully I?ll keep doing it. And whether you don?t like me or whatever Limewire well, I?m sure we?ll both survive and prosper with or without each other?s company.

All personal stuff aside I will repeat, IGDA excluded, I go to most of those as well (we?ve probably met before) and the guys who go to those meetings are there because they wish to improve the industry, Matt, and Truna, and Mick are all great and the industry needs much more like them. The ones I?m talking about however are not going to IGDA meetings, I?m not saying all the people who don?t are pricks or anything, I myself am admittedly winding down a little though I?ll be there Sunday most likely, but the guys I?m talking about would never even consider it because its just not worthy of their time, unless of course it promoted them.

Where I?ve seen these guys are at the private house parties and in interviews or business stuff that I?ve been in, ok they may not be a majority, but with the people agreeing with me on this post they?re obviously predominant enough? I don?t know maybe the bad just tend to stand out more above the good, either way I?m just trying to highlight the very thin line there is between industry and non industry folk, and that I think the sooner it is acknowledged and we get some humility back, the better it will be for all, sure its probably not you, its probably not the guy next to you, but its there and for the most part in the upper echelons where it is needed the least.

I never said i dont like you Jackydablunt - i have no reason to anyway. I simply said your first post was mostly talking shit - by which i mean rambling off on a weird tangent. I'm not critisizing what you said by calling it rambing shit, (infact some of it did give me a bit of a laugh, even if i didnt agree with it all), it's just that it came across that you were just having a bit of a rant, which i have no problem with, but seeing as it took the form of random ramblings, i didnt take the thread seriously until there were serious replies.

I guess we can settle any other differences on sunday [:D]

Is this the sort of leetism and 'high and mighty' attitude that we're desting here?

quote:posted by poser regarding Hazard and Cynical

Basic Facts
1. I earn $100,000+ p.a. as a programmer.
2. I have had no problems finding work for 10 years.
3. Cynical is not offering to pay me anything.
4. This post has been going on for 8 months.
5. You two are in la la land.

LOL - You beat me to it, I was going to point to that. [:D]

don't know urgrund I didn't read that thread so I don't know the context of it, I've got no problem with people being confident (though yeah that dude does sound pretty frrrreaken l33t) its the hacking on others thats gets me.

I was in an interview with a l33t company not so long ago (wont say which one), wasn't so sure I wanted the job (or if I'll stay in the industry altogether) but I went to it anyway, and the dude was bloody trying to hack on me IN THE INTERVIEW! He was smirking away making coments "I dont think I saw anyone go to your booth at AGDC meheheheh" and on other things and I just looked at him straight and said "I don't care man" and he shut up, then I went on (ranting if you will) about just what we had achieved and my opinions of the aformentioned elitism in the industry, and he just looked at the desk for the rest of the time. It remained civil and in the end we wound up just making friendly chit chat about general crap but theres little need to say I have since withdrawn my application, I am not working under someone like that. It was a pitty cause the HR chick was really quite a nice person and put up with me giving her the run around a bit (sorry).

The thing is though is that I've heard people tell me a few stories like that and its a shame because it's hard enough for inexperienced to have an interview as it is, let alone having it hosted by someone on a power trip. They need to be given confidence for christ sake, even if you aren't going to hire them, because then they broadcast themselves and that's how you find out their best characteristics.

......... meh, I'm over it, hopefully places like Gridwerx and Intrigue will get themselves up and running and wake these other guys up a bit.

Ok Livewire, I'll watch my delivery techniques if you watch yours, and we'll all live happily ever after, see you sunday.

quote:Originally posted by Jackydablunt

don't know urgrund I didn't read that thread so I don't know the context of it, I've got no problem with people being confident (though yeah that dude does sound pretty frrrreaken l33t) its the hacking on others thats gets me.

I was in an interview with a l33t company not so long ago (wont say which one), wasn't so sure I wanted the job (or if I'll stay in the industry altogether) but I went to it anyway, and the dude was bloody trying to hack on me IN THE INTERVIEW! He was smirking away making coments "I dont think I saw anyone go to your booth at AGDC meheheheh" and on other things and I just looked at him straight and said "I don't care man" and he shut up, then I went on (ranting if you will) about just what we had achieved and my opinions of the aformentioned elitism in the industry, and he just looked at the desk for the rest of the time. It remained civil and in the end we wound up just making friendly chit chat about general crap but theres little need to say I have since withdrawn my application, I am not working under someone like that. It was a pitty cause the HR chick was really quite a nice person and put up with me giving her the run around a bit (sorry).

The thing is though is that I've heard people tell me a few stories like that and its a shame because it's hard enough for inexperienced to have an interview as it is, let alone having it hosted by someone on a power trip. They need to be given confidence for christ sake, even if you aren't going to hire them, because then they broadcast themselves and that's how you find out their best characteristics.

......... meh, I'm over it, hopefully places like Gridwerx and Intrigue will get themselves up and running and wake these other guys up a bit.

Ok Livewire, I'll watch my delivery techniques if you watch yours, and we'll all live happily ever after, see you sunday.

I agree with much of your sentiment and I'm sorely tempted
to indulge in a rant, but I'd be all grumpy in the morning.

Anyway, right on.

Let it all out man, thus be the circle of truth :)

Isnt it being elitist to complain about others being elitist?
Really wgaf - having worked in a few diff industries (Electrical/Electronics, IT, Games, Defense) in differing roles, Im not really sure why there is a problem? You always get people trying to do better and show off - "Show ponies" if you will.. but its hardly a bone of contention. Seriously, the high majority of ppl involved in the game industry are great people. I dont think wasting time worrying about a few bad eggs will solve anything, and more to the point, its a pretty large waste of effort.

Its a bit disappointing that you label the people in the industry as the 'prima donna' problem, hardly the case. Most are truly brilliant minded, hard working folks who enjoy a half decent beer.

ok yeah, point taken, and you're right as was Livewire and the others in saying that they are in fact a minority, and yes it is in all other industries as it is a human trait, however, despite all this, why NOT ackowledge it? When I had that interview it started out with him taking shots and making out their company was better (duh, thats why I was applying) and it was going nowhere, I wasn't there for his amusement so therefore I picked him up on it. After I did that the interview went fine, we were on an equal level and we just started talking everyday crap like we do on here, friendly stuff, industry stuff, it was all good it ended up being a proper interview.

So surely its healthy to bring this up and acknowledge it when we see it, its better for them, better for us, better for the industry as a whole.

Hang on a sec - this is classic christian banter. "Eye for an eye" and all that. :) (I wonder how many I offended with that.. soz) Seriously, the whole idea that if someone chastises you for something and you feel the need to retaliate, then it is not the person chastising that has the problem. It is yourself. If you truly dont care what this person says, then simply let it go. It'll do you no good (mentally) to keep it on board and mull it, and blow it up on a forum (although it is a good way to vent the frustration too). Its a very powerful thing to do, to be able to simply ignore a persons intended chide, in fact, done well it can simply make them look completely foolish. And as you are pretty happy with the work you've done, Id say you seem halfway there in any case - a bit more venting and you will be cured :)

Resolution of issues and acknowledging a problem are two different things. As has been stated, there isnt really a big problem - in general terms in this industry. Its a human condition as you point out. That being true, its just life, so you'll need to learn to develop some coping mechanisms for it (theres no solve to fix all the ego trippers :) ). If you have ever worked in a blue collar job like the car industry (I was at GMH for 12 years) you simply end up developing a wgaf mechanism to cope :) ... what ppl say ends up having little desired effect .. even leading hands :)

In fact ignoring this post.. would be a great way to stuff me up :)

No I wont ignore, you speak the truth wise one, however, I wasn't pissed because of their approach to me, I was pissed because of the approach to my friends. I've been feeling the need to find another career for a while now so what happens to me in this one isn't really an issue (ok it is, but less and less as time passes). But because of that I've kinda been looking into the industry a bit more from an outside view, as what a few people have done, and I don't know it just seems like something easily avoidable that doesnt need to be there and it'd make it easier and funner for a lot of people if it wasnt. I just don't like seeing people get away with that kinda thing is all, maybe its just noseyness or self righteousness, I dont know, doesn't matter as like most people are saying, there ain't much you can do.

I think there's elitism in all industries, not just in the game industry. Not that I think it's ok to be that way, but I think it highlights the importance to know people outside of your chosen industry and like Jacky said, be a bit more well rounded in your life.

None of my friends are in the games industry and they're all spread out over different disciplines and I think it's interesting to learn about the things they do, in fact it's a nice change from the usual games chatter.

Personally, I think Jackydablunt's approach was fantastic... Too many lemon sucking straight faces on too many forums everywhere. It's refreshing to read something with a bit of flare... maybe a little convoluted but it makes you think a bit more about what the author is saying and in the end, it provokes a response, which is what it's all about!

As for the subject... I've been in the industry a while now and my ego has remained comfortably in check thanks to the following conversation, repeated almost anywhere I go...

Them "So... what do you do"
Me "I work in video games"
Them "uh huh... so, whataya think of this fantastic cheese dip"

I wish I could know the emotional high's of being a Prima Donna, surely someone working in 'video games' is at least a little bit cool...

quote:Originally posted by Gandal
Them "So... what do you do"
Me "I work in video games"
Them "uh huh... so, whataya think of this fantastic cheese dip"

Reminds me of something a teacher said long ago:

Them "So... what do you do"
Him "I'm a composer"
Them "uh huh..., I take out the garbage on Wednesdays"

[:)]

Fraudulent folk scamming the Aus games industry? someone should inform the government, that's their job! ... then again it could be one of their sub branches.

quote:Originally posted by Jackydablunt

Fraudulent folk scamming the Aus games industry? someone should inform the government, that's their job! ... then again it could be one of their sub branches.

Ok, Agent Mulder [:p].

Umm I'm afraid the wonderful revelations and the anonymous psychopath(s) in the EGA comments along with this thread started by a reputable sumea member make me add two and two together a little [:(][:(!][:X][?]

Yeh, scams seem to be more prolific and targetted in nature these days. Over the years, I've been a recipient for the domain name scam (was sent 3 letters urging to re-register), phishing scams (how the heck did they get my email address, and I can see how people could get easily fooled), and numerous emails like what you mentioned with Sumea. It's always a good idea to keep your guard up.

wow, a few nice pratical uses shown but still more interesting to see the kinda crazy scienceworks type fun you can have with that (btw, scienceworks is a museum of sorts in melbourne)

*speechless*

That is awesome. I love how you can resize images by spreading apart two index fingers [:)].

I know touchscreens and things like augmented reality (the use of feedback from cameras, like Eye toy for example) is based on old ideas and tech, but darnit, I wish things like the above would catch on.

I reckon something like from Minority Report where your hand signals are detected would be better than touchscreen [:)]

I would avoid that technology so as not to look like Tom Cruise.

I like it ... that's the kind of thing that can be used for any number of practical purposes, but ALSO be something that could keep people entertained for hours when they've had a few too many :)

I am certainly going to look forward to the next wave of "Sex-u-Tainment" games made for it....... Did I say that out loud?

quote:Originally posted by Souri

That is awesome. I love how you can resize images by spreading apart two index fingers [:)].

I know touchscreens and things like augmented reality (the use of feedback from cameras, like Eye toy for example) is based on old ideas and tech, but darnit, I wish things like the above would catch on.

I reckon something like from Minority Report where your hand signals are detected would be better than touchscreen [:)]

they actually created something similar to that... or atleast they made an effort to. I remember reading about it anyway, anyone got the link?

Sorceror Bob, you've just ruined it for me forever.

[;)]

Edit: I can't spell.

Amazing how easy it was to animate a character by grabbing the parts with your hands and physically moving it. I guess there would be pretty big potential there to revolutionise workflow. Maybe one day this kind of thing could make creating a large amount of game assets for next gen games more efficient and affordable. I can sure imagine how this sort of thing would improve workflow in a 3D app.

Though not sure about the Sex-u-Tainment stuff..

I have an Undead Warlock playing for the Horde on Jubei'Thos, so watch out [;)]

I'm absolutely astonished that there are level 60s already on that server. Jubei'Thos was launched on Australia day, and it took about 8 days for the first guy to hit level 60.

I wanted to roll horde, but my friends suck. Ahh well. I shall keep an eye out for locks. :D

Leet! I'll jump on WoW now Bob and make a new char... [8D]

Hey guys, A group of game artist/programmers (and partners etc) have started a guild on Horde frostmorne, Its called "nubs Co" We have about 20 or so players (regulars). We have friends in other guild so we run MC. (dkp system)
Anyways, if u would like to join drop me a /w in game.

INGAME NAME: popa (60 shammy)
GUILD: Nubs Co.

pop

Oooh :( yeah since this post my friends decided to roll horde on frostmourne.

I was a little bummed at this, as I wanted a shot of running some nice instances with my mates before my funds ran out. And run out they have.

I have a 25 Orc hunter. Ercbna. Cause he looks like the hulk.

I'll be playing him for a few more days yet :( but stupid lack of jobs.. What can you do.

Might join ya. Recently rolled a Shammy called Braun, currently 18.

Hey I am now the proud owner of a lvl21 night elf hunter. If anyone is on the Khaz'goroth server, look for my character "Adiaha"

i have a lvl 60 troll hunter on jubeithos called neffy :)

I've a level 50 Night elf priest on frostmourne by the name of Lutzi

Say hi if you see me running around :D

wow a mighty interesting browse. Its got my wallet whimpering though...

Great fine Souri,

It's a good way to see some games that look interesting but haven't been marketed or hyped much (yet).

btw the first screenshot on that page is medieval II which is being developed at Creative Assembly Brisbane Studio :D

"Sam and Max2
Finally a sequel to one of best games ever made"

Nice! ill definately keep an eye on that -pure classic

It also looks like major studios are getting ready for DX10 [8D]

quote:Originally posted by Crystalmesh

btw the first screenshot on that page is medieval II which is being developed at Creative Assembly Brisbane Studio :D

For the love of god, please tell the dev's to slow the combat down and go back to the risk style map!

Otherwise I'm anticipating this game hugely.

That Crysis game looks amazing, but the game I'm looking most forward to there is Quake Wars. [8D]

Agreed!! I love huge open terrain online tactical shooters. Itll be amusing the see the strog bunny hopping along the terrain controlled by "coolguy101" though :P a tad less atmospheric

You're two and a half years late to the party, Me109 [:D]

http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=756

doh! I found that link in my random searches of the web..

before my sumea time then, i thought it was hilarious :P

quote:Originally posted by Yug

I saw this on cnet the other day:
[url]http://www.cnet.com.au/games/xbox/0,39029621,40059741,00.htm[/url]

Does anyone know if this will be affected by the pushback of the 360 launch date? Or specifically when these demo units will be arriving and available to play in which stores?

This is the email I got from xbox vip:
quote:
The Australian and New Zealand Xbox 360 launch has been pushed back to the new proposed launch date of March 23 at 12:01am. I can assure you we went to great lengths to secure consoles for the region on the initial date of March 2; however, it recently became apparent that the date would need to be adjusted.

Globally our biggest challenge has been manufacturing enough Xbox 360 consoles to meet the incredibly strong demand for the product. As typical for a video game console launch of this magnitude, we faced some short term manufacturing issues due to component shortages stemming from challenges in ramping supply.

We believe that these challenges are short term in nature and have taken steps to resolve this in time for the new Australian and New Zealand launch. Next month we are bringing on a third manufacturing facility, Celestica, and expect to meet strong consumer demand in the near future.

The Xbox team is as disappointed by the delay as no doubt you are, as we believe the Xbox 360 will be one of the most exciting things to happen to gaming and home entertainment in ANZ.

Australian and New Zealand gamers are among the most loyal of Xbox supporters. It is therefore extremely important that we avoid any additional disappointment for gamers such as yourself in the lead-up to the launch. Because of this we are now concentrating our efforts during the coming months in two main areas.

The first area is working closely with manufacturing and distribution teams to ensure adequate day-one stocks and on-going supply. In addition to our new manufacturing partner, we're working at a local level to have adequate levels of Xbox 360 consoles at launch, and to regularly replenish stock in stores during the following weeks and months.

The second area we are focusing on is creating special gaming opportunities for our local Xbox fans before launch. We want to give you the chance to play the Xbox 360 yourself ahead of the revised launch date. In addition to putting demonstration units into participating retail stores in February, we're also in the process of finalizing additional opportunities for some of our valued customers. We will be announcing more during the coming weeks.

Finally, I want to let you know that we'll keep you informed about activities leading up to the launch date. You can receive this information via the Xbox 360 VIP desktop alerts, xbox.com.au or regularly reading any of the leading gaming sites and publications.

You know, I can't help but feel amused about the whole XBox 360 situation here.

We're getting them a whopping 6 months away since 'global launch', and apart from PGR3, there really isn't anything worth getting. When it does get launched locally, we might be facing game prices [url="http://www.xboxworld.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=41635"]betweeen $130 and $150 here[/url]. [:D]

CoD2 looks good to me... So does PD0 and Kameo. And I don't like car games. We obviously like different games Souri [:P] Plus by the time it comes out here we'll have Gears of War, Full Auto and other games too. But yeah the pricing for games and all does suck. I don't see Sony faring any better anyway... Especially considering how well the XBox has done in Australia and that they're using a more expensive disk medium and the games are more expensive to develop from what I've heard. I'm gunna give it time and wait and see but saying a console is gunna suck before it comes out seems to be a silly comment to make.

Of course all of this is IMHO [:P]

!!!!! WTF $130-$150 !!!!!

Excuse my right to rag and rant but.. That?s friggen ridiculous!!!!

Most expensive game...excluding anything you'd wanna get on a neo-geo and e-bay was Turok for the N64. When that came out that was $120 for a few months.. And no one brought it ether. XD

To be honest guys. $99.95 is quite an investment for a game in itself and then you work out that the average western made game takes 20 hours at best to complete [I'm averaging 12 hours though] divide your game play hours by your cost of game.

Usually you'll find that ultimately your paying $3-6 dollars an hour to play that game.. There are always exceptions to those rules though. GTA3 games you can play ultimately for 100 hours.

None the less increasing the total price of the game by $50 is robbery.. If it's gonna be like this these new games better average their play hours to 30 to make up for it. Because they might have cutting edge graphics.. But if I end up with only 4-8 hours game play I?ll be going back to my SNES XD play some good ol U.N. Squadron.

Another thing I gotta ask. With $30-$50 added on to cover the cost of game develop budget and hardware/materials.. Do the development companies get a better cut of the share now. Or is this just purely the publishers doing?

Ive no interest in buying a 360 at the moment, i doubt i will for a long time. Im actually looking forward to the launch to push down the price of xbox games :D

That RRP is rubbish anyway I think you'll find... I've seen games available for preorder at EB for around the $99 mark for MS published games, and $109 for non MS published games. Probably some Sony or Nintendo fan trying to attract attention. I could be wrong but why would EB be advertising the wrong prices then?

The point of getting a 360 is to try to hack it to run Linux and/or MacOS [;)]

Edit: not sure about legalities, but really what do MS expect people to want to do with these toys... Play games??? [:D]

$130 - $150 RRP? No way.

Somebody (ie. Microsoft) is putting that figure out there so we'll remain complacent when XBox 360 games are released at "only" $110 to $120.

AFAIK, games have seldom hit retail for more than $120, and few of those that took the $110 to $120 gamble paid off initially. That said, I did buy Mortal Kombat II (SNES) for $120 back in 1993.

IMO, anything over $100 is ridiculous. Games need to be cheaper, not more expensive.

I'd be happy to participate in your your questions, I've played games as a religion since Atari days if thats far enough back for you.

Email addy is on my Profile.

Hi Jason

Count me in. I've helped you with a feature before, I think :) Gazunta@gazunta.com. I'm more retro than a big retro thing in a tank full of retro fish or something.

thanks :)

Cameron

I'd love to participate - just how far back are you going for 'retro' though? I came in during the early NES days.

Thanks guys, I'll be in touch. However, I'm more after people who play retro games today rather than just experienced gamers. I'd like retro fans to explain why they still find classic games so appealing.

Jason

That?s Easy

Cause they are so much FUN and still hold true today. Back in the days when graphics barely existed and epic cinematic stories spread over 12 DVD's weren?t even conceived we had simple little titles that concentrated on just pure fun game play mechanics. Titles that you could pick up and instantly play for enjoyment. No realistic physics.. No believable rag doll death animations... ahhhh the good ole days! When games were designed with a concentration on character abilities and fun mechanics as apposed to being designed, sadly to tie in with the companies latest tech development as most companies do today. In ten years time will you dust off Doom 3 and give it a go, probably not as its graphics will be dated and there is simply nothing underneath that to put a smile on your face. That?s why I still play the classics, for that quick burst of sheer fun without ever debating with a mate how the quasi parallax omni bump mapping doesn?t look detailed enough on the terrain.

2 beers = rant.

Hear hear!

I haven?t bought or played a new game in a long time (with the exception of Nintendo DS games, which i'll get into in a second), because I've played them all before. Lately I?ve been going back over my old SNES and NES (re-released on GBA because my NES doesn?t work like it used to) because they are just as good as (and often better than) any new game with the same (and often inferior) gameplay but with the next-gen of quasi parallax omni bump mapping whatever that Mik ranted on about. Which is why i buy DS games - they offer new gameplay, or at the very least, new spins on old gameplay. There is so much more that could be done with this medium, so why have we been mostly just re-inventing the same gameplay for the past 20 years?
I'm not getting an Xbox 360 - Perfect Dark Zero being case in point: an N64 turned GameCube turned Xbox turned Xbox 360 game, which in itself is a sequel to the successor of a first generation N64 title. It's freaking 10 year old gameplay with all new shiny plastic visuals! Could there be any better example of derogatory gameplay??
I rest my case.

2 beers = another rant (except I?ve been drinking good Queensland beer where as Mik's been into that VB rubbish)

quote:Originally posted by LiveWire
There is so much more that could be done with this medium, so why have we been mostly just re-inventing the same gameplay for the past 20 years?

The almighty buck. Little gameplay industry is coming of age and it seems we're rapidly moving into the hollywood blockbuster vs independant film kinda model. Die-hard film game fans will seek out the new, but the cinemas stores will be full of technically proficient but soulless unimaginative remakes. Playing retro games is just like watching old movies, you have a combination of nostalgia and the joy of watching/playing something that was well crafted on the day it was minted, and is still well crafted.

ObOnTopic, the last retro game I played (yesterday actually!) was [url="http://www.atariage.com/software_page.html?SystemID=2600&SoftwareLabelI…"]Chuck Norris Superkicks[/url] after seeing yet another email chain degrade into [url="http://www.chucknorris.com/html/events.aspx"]Chuck Norris [/url] territory.

so yeah.. the first console i owned was a SNES... damn old timers ;)

Any chance that this article will be available online when you're done? If you post up a link if and when it does that would be great.

No worries, it should be published Feb 23.

J

Do you think it matters if a current retro gamer plays games on the original console, or is it still considered the same thing if they are just playing the game emulated on their PC?

Hmmmmmmmmm

Warning, old timer coming through [;)]

My main reasons for playing old classics from the C64, SNES, and early arcade era is due to their quick/easy pick up and play nature, and for nostalgia reasons.

A lot of the classics back then are really simple games that many people can pick up and understand straight away. They're also pretty short, and there are a fair few games that I remember which could be beaten even within half an hour (Commando (C64), Ghost 'n Goblins (C64) just to name 2 [;)]). For those of us who've grown up playing those games and don't have as much time to invest in modern games anymore, these retro games are nice quick alternatives to satisfy our gaming urges.

A big part of retro games appeal for me is for nostalgia reasons. It may be the music (and some of the most memorable game music is from those times, I reckon), the fun graphics, or the goals in the game that when reached, all of which let you relive some of the good times you've had when you were a kid.

I enjoy a quick blast on the retro games from time to time. I?ve often thought about why I find them so fun, but I?m not certain. I think a big part of it is definitely that the retro games tend to be largely simple action/response type things. Like you kind of play it on instinct, dodging out of the way of an approaching pixel blob, or timing your attack precisely to kill the bad guy. No deep level of thinking or problem solving, just instinctual play. At least this is the case with most of the retro games that I play. It?s certainly not true with all of them, such as RPG?s.

I think maybe this instinct idea for why retro games are so fun is very similar to why more modern FPS games are fun. I think possibly that any game, no matter how old or new, is highly enjoyable on a very basic instinctual level if the game draws on natural human instincts. Running into a room guns blazing and instinctually dodging enemy fire is exhilarating in a very similar way that flying your pixelated space craft into a blocky alien armada and dodging enemy fire is exhilarating. Not because of any sort of problem solving, but because of very simple gameplay tactics such as dodging and timing movements just right.

Okay, now this might be taking it a bit too deep, but thinking about the instinctual aspect of retro gameplay gives me an idea. I wonder if the reason these basic gameplay tactics in retro games are so enjoyable is because of some primeval instinct inherited from our evolution? I know, its way to philosophical, but it?s an interesting notion. In our evolution our ancestors developed a knack for escaping predators, right? They probably got a jolt of elation as they escape a predator. So could it be possible that this feeling has been passed on to us, and when we play a game that in some way mimics that primeval survival instinct, we also get a slight jolt of elation?

I?m not sure if I made any sense or not..

quote:
Do you think it matters if a current retro gamer plays games on the original console, or is it still considered the same thing if they are just playing the game emulated on their PC?

I used to play the old Atari a fair bit. Then I got a bunch of old Activision games on a PS2 compilation, and I was amazed at how much easier they were simply because of the modern controller. Playing on the dodgy old unresponsive Atari joystick certainly added to the challenge. But I think it?s more fun when you have a responsive controller, or keyboard for PC emulated games. It?s still good fun playing old games on the PC. I?m sure not going to pull out the old C64 anytime soon. Hmmm, Monte Mole, 40 minuets to load, or 4 seconds?

I think another big draw for retro games is their replayability factor. Even when you've completed them for the umpteen time, you still don't mind picking it up again for another run through. They're just fun to play.

I find that a lot of modern games, barring those with a multi-player only focus, I would never play again once I complete them. Games like Doom 3, Half Life 1 & 2, Call Of Duty, the Silent Hill's and Metal Gear Solid's. It's not that they're bad games (with exception to Doom3), but I think that when you've invested all the time to beat it and experienced all the game has to offer (the story, visuals, and challenges), the appeal to play it again just for the game mechanics isn't there anymore for me. I'd just prefer to wait for the next derivative to play through. [;)]

The stories in Retro games are either non-existant or as simple as you can get, so in contrast to modern games, they weren't a huge part of the appeal in playing those games..

yeah i agree.

just as as a disclaimer though, this post might not make much sense as i've been out all night drinking and i just got home and my flatmate is watching an episode of battlestar i havnt seen yet and i dont want to see it so i've come online.

ok.

i think retro games are so re-playable because they are so short and simple, designed to be replayed many times (they were arcade games afterall). Where as new games are designed as 40 hour + marathons designed to be completed one or twice

I'd say the first machines I played games on overlap with Souri,
although I never owned a C64 (had an Amstrad and Spectrum).
The C64 has really good sound for the time, and the ports to
other systems didn't match up in that department (although the
res was typically better). I think the first real game I played
was 'Elite' on the BBC Acorn.

Games from that era I feel personally were 'concentrated gameplay'
because you didn't have fancy graphics to fall back on - so gameplay
made or broke a title. The games were typically a lot harder and
didn't have save slots usually. Unlike modern desktop applications
the code had to be efficient both in time and space, since machines
had between 32k-128k of memory and processor speeds of 1-3.75mhz.

The most technologically advanced games on those platforms had filled,
flat shaded 3D. Isometric games were also popular. There were a lot
of 2D games.

As Souri mentioned earlier, replay value was also important, and
was typically part of the game's rating in reviews.

I?ve just started playing retro games again & I?d have to agree with just about everything that?s been said so far.

why do retro fans still find classic games appealing? So far we?ve talked about

*fun game play mechanics
*pick up and play
*nostalgia
*replay ability factor
*simple action/response gameplay

but what about things like

Co-op: double dragon! battle toads!! river city ransom!!!

game difficultly: games actually required some skill and had real consequences and rewards for your actions. Now you can just save before you come up to something difficult and keep replaying it until you get it right.

Rewarding gameplay: Back in the day it was an achievement to actually finish a game

I was at K-mart yesterday and they have street fighter champion ship on sale, it was in one of those new plug into your tv and play packs, how cool is that. I love how they are bringing back the old games.

I got [url="http://hardware.commodoreworld.com/default.aspx?i=3&s=products&p=52"]the C=64 one for christmas[/url] :)

Thanks for your help guys, the feature ran today and contains some familiar names - [url]http://www.theage.com.au/news/games/play-again/2006/03/01/1141095746591…]

There's also a companion piece about the demise of arcades at [url]http://www.theage.com.au/news/games/why-arcade-parlours-are-scoring-low…]

Cheers,

Jason

That was a great article on arcade game parlours. I'm surprised that Timezone still has outlets! I certainly remember them in their heyday.

I grew up in those years where arcade parlours extremely abundant. Near where I lived (back in the early 90's), Parramatta had over seven or eight arcade parlours. Four in close vincinity of Westfields, and there were plenty on the other side of the train station. Arcades were *everywhere*, and always bustling with activity.

In the city (Sydney), the parlours were much, much larger. I remember the one that opened up on George street which had two huge levels packed with so many arcade machines. You'd walk in and just be overwhelmed on what game to play first. It's still there now, but it's only a tiny fraction of it's former glory.

Does anyone remember Intencity? They sorta popped up after the peak of arcades had been reached and built all these elaborate outlets with special areas that had Virtual Reality rooms and sports areas. They tried to make it more family orientated and fun, and even opened up real late. I remember when they got staff to hold competitions, so in linked games like Daytona, the winner would get to stay on the next round for free. I managed to get plenty of free games that way [;)]
The excitement was initially there, but it just wasn't sustained. People just got bored of it pretty quickly.

Oh, and let's not talk about the disaster that was Sega World in Sydney. [;)]

It's interesting to read that arcade parlours are still quite popular in Japan. It's probably for the reason that LAI managing director Malcolm Steinberg mentioned in that article, where I think the arcades over there offer prizes and rewards, and so are perceived to be better value for players.

Discreet bought out Alias just recently, (he news of it was everywhere) but as of yet i havn't heard anything about merging the software (they did say they would continue to support each as seperate programes for the time being though), or anything about it being gcalled 'Studio Maya' which sounds kind lame

Ok, first of all, autodesk discussion hadn't even begun early last year when this maya tour was held, secondly this discussion has been spawned all over the net from the ridiculous to the absurd.

So, I know that it's complete speculation on their half... in other words "a fabrication inverse to the truth", whether they're pulling your leg, or they had theirs pulled. I mean, for starters, think about it. There's no viable financial or market gain from this, let alone the sheer logistics involved in application merging. They would lose market share from people swapping to competitors. I can say I have it on a bit more solid foundation that this is not the plan than from the word of college staff. There are pruning plans in terms of staffing, but there's also massive funding plans for r&d which would put that staff number up (eg, get rid of marketing, get more r&d for actual development).

I spoke to the Australasian Discreet rep last week - there are no plans to integrate the two products at this time. They will both be marketed and supported individually for the forseeable future.

The CGC staff must be full of crap then. Anyway I like to see it merge for the sake of employment.

What I'd like to know is what is whether this merged app is going to work on a real operating system (i.e. unix and/or unix based OSs). I suspect it will because so many film studios are using Linux on the desktop now, but afaik Max has never been designed to be portable whereas Maya has (it was developep on IRIX and ported to Windows). I wonder how much code will come from each app, or if they are starting from scratch but taking the best features from each package.

They won't be easy programs to merge at all imho, and unless they embed both MaxScript and MEL a huge amount of work done by 3rd parties will become obsolete [:(]

Sounds sus, merging both products would be a bad idea. Each application has their strength and weaknesses, best to have a choice between the two and even maybe cross-application importing/exporting maybe ... who knows.

And if you do get a new card, test it with [url="http://www.pcper.com/article.php?aid=199&type=expert&pid=2"]FutureMark 3DMark06 Benchmark[/url]. The graphics tests look so very, very, very pretty [:)] (that Antarctic research base scene looks great)

Forget about shader model 3 and direct X9.
Direct X10 is the way to go. [8D] [url]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8475390224863646387&q=far+cry+3…]

Though it's probably going to be a couple years before it gets off the ground.[xx(]

DX10 wont be out until Windows Vista comes around, and that's looking to be some time towards the end of the year at the earliest, and no hardware as of yet fully supports vista and DX10 (as you might expect).

3dmark 2006 already?? man I had enough problems running 2005 on my 4200 Ti.. Oh I wish for a new video card

Awesome work man, keep it up. Heard RMIT is a good uni, good luck with it.

*Palantir offers his congratulations*
Good luck MoonUnit!

On a somewhat similar note, the uni (QUT) accepted my sub-major and transfer, which means this year I'm doing digital arts/communication design. This means that I get to study animation and digital art all year instead of continuing on with business management stuff (which I didn't like very much). It's not the same as first offers, but it's still an offer that I've been anxiously waiting on.

thanks cody, palantir and well done on your transfer! Id be doing the same thing in your situation (not much of a business management person). RMIT does have a really good reputation from all ive been hearing from existing students whom i shall now be roping into liquid lunches with me when i start classes sometime in march (enrollments next week, joy!).

Congrats MoonUnit!

Make sure you sign up with the IGDA Melbourne Chapter, we'll be having a big party in March.

So are you old enough to drink yet? [;)]

Enrolling tomorrow at UTS for a BScIT, DipITProfPrac. Naturally I'm gunna take anything game related I come across. I hope all goes well [:)]

thanks angel and good luck with that rohan :D and livewire... allmost! the 25th :P

The article looked to me like an attempt to link open-source to patent reform specifically to get published on slashdot. putting things on teh web and sharing information openly is quite different from open source.

(BTW: The 'Sumea Website Related' forum's the best spot for enhancement suggestions)

The code details for urls is now in the Forum Code link when you write a message.

A Day in the Life of a Game Composer:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4558607460009359474&q=game+music
(Which they got all wrong, I mean, where are all the female groupies, the booze, se......oh....right...why didnt someone tell me!)

Be a Game Designer!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3505951782174966240&q=game+desi…
(My Mum said I would never get anywhere with these games)

Old Atari Commercial:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5352747234729435632&q=atari
Fun Fun Fun

Nintendo Acapella:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6995659424854251605&q=nintendo

Liquid Tension Experiment Live
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2109943381931383238&q=liquid+t…
(For all you music dudes)

Victor Wooten Live
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5313639281780987096&q=wooten
(For all you bass players)

To Much CS
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3255877317720285663&q=counter+…
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3390635581660896968&q=counter+…

Thats all from me now!

I only just started really searching through them ... this one is pretty cool though

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=515642196227308929

LTE live! you rock mick :D

That first Counterstrike video is bloody hilarious [:D]

Some more music vids:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1887293651082720270&q=solo
...now I feel slack!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1522894289678575290&q=solo
Street drums

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4163820284644745223&q=solo
Paul Gilbert

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7123164409752792753&q=solo
Billy Sheehan

Some great videos there!

Google video is also a great way for you to get your Game Trailers out there as well :D - [url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1902461315290887744&q=gripshift"]GripShift Trailer[/url]

My favourite though is [url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-123322263707848424&q=lizard"]Morning Musume Lizard[/url]

Awesome acrobatic stunts!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2453038677839094535&q=ninja

[url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1867155040270429847"]Half Life on an iPod Nano[/url] [:0]

[url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1329362959167995041"]Tripod singing a particularly apropos ditty[/url]

Dogs with Hats
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6735650580068092474&q=hats

[url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5503582578132361295"]Pipe Dream[/url]

Pipe Dream has been voted one of the 50 greatest animation projects ever (by 3D World magazine).

A group of percussion instruments perform music by way of metal balls that fly out from pipes.

On pipe dream - I know google video is new and hip and cool and stuff, but the internet archive also has [url="http://www.archive.org/details/siggraph"]pipe dream plus a bunch of other SIGGRAPH 2001 vids[/url], as well as a bunch of other public domain movies like [url="http://www.archive.org/details/charade"]charade[/url], newsreels, animations etc. Want cutscenes for your next WW2 game? Doing a Betty Boop-themed platformer? It's all legal baby :)

pipe dream rocks though [}:)]

edit: added link to charade

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5393904704265757054 - Blowing up some hardware is always fun to watch - but this is just funny

quote:Originally posted by Souri

[url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5503582578132361295"]Pipe Dream[/url]

Pipe Dream has been voted one of the 50 greatest animation projects ever (by 3D World magazine).

A group of percussion instruments perform music by way of metal balls that fly out from pipes.

Better to run the [url="http://www.ati.com/developer/demos/r9700.html"]realtime demo[/url] :)

Some of my favourites:
[url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1539922531377218673"]Dont work so hard[/url]
[url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4421526433586797533"]Naruto's World[/url] (AMV)
[url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5797108766137110904"]PSP ad[/url] (Kez is a fan of this nut.. I mean ad)
[url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7193470719293309352"]The Sysadmin Song[/url]
[url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5864097001633806354"]Visa priceless video spoof[/url] (not for the youngins)
[url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4098599485090093464"]Canon In Electric Guitar[/url]
[url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9105575935534995120"]Shingo Mama No Oha![/url]. I have a .mov of this one somewhere..
[url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6238953685626218421"]Terry Tate the Office Linebacker - The Office Linebacker[/url]. Classic, I have a bunch from the [url="http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=terry+tate"]series[/url], fantastic.
[url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9091776726715774789"]a day/night cycle of a city[/url]

[url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5614661449126109898&q=future"]Car of the future[/url]

More laughs:

Lord of Halo:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7218579645986995251

Cheap day care:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5854686068870249151

Driving fun:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8735889757702013026

1337 Star Wars:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4736164577126715920

Bush and Blair:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3319967978568410735&q=gay+bar

I found this video embarrassing, painful to watch, but downright hilarious (for all the wrong reasons) at the same time. Sure, it goes on for an excruciating 44 minutes, but I was compelled to watch all of it. [:D]

GameLife Video Game Review Show Episode 1
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7880449039153812110&q=nintendo

An *awesome* fight between a WTF Tae Kwon Do black belt and a Shoalin Monk. At the beginning the Shaolin Monk seems to just block all the time, and you really wish he'd do something. Later on, he *really* goes off [:)] Amazing stuff.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7324505260945830142&q=fight

This is hilarious. I won't post any spoilers, but it made me laugh.

[url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6415770050655464328"]The Apple Intel Ad RELOADED[/url]

quote:Originally posted by Souri

This is hilarious. I won't post any spoilers, but it made me laugh.

[url="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6415770050655464328"]The Apple Intel Ad RELOADED[/url]

ROFL!

ditto, thats hilarious

If anyone has read or heard all about Will Wright's Spore game, but has yet to see footage of it yet, I highly recommend his Game Developer's Conference presentation of it. It's now on google video, goes on for about 35 minutes, and it's fantastic. [:)]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8372603330420559198&q=spore

Mmmm Spore....
Is anyone else worried we all just might be part of a Will Wright game? Anyone?

.....wheres my tinfoil hat?...

quote:Originally posted by Malus

Mmmm Spore....
Is anyone else worried we all just might be part of a Will Wright game? Anyone?

.....wheres my tinfoil hat?...

Dunno, but one time I dreamt that I was a Lemming. [}:)]

the full (1 hour) video of Will Wright's presentation can be found here: [url]http://www.pqhp.com/cmp/gdctv/[/url]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2231271827736577327&q=simpsons
....Classic

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4446981554735098778&q=internet…
....Not exactly what it looks like, more for people who have not seen it yet!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2643835654848098127&q=top+gun+…
....hmmmm...makes you wonder

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3298139029119064975&q=the+shin…
The Shining as a romantic comedy

The concept of Spore is quite amazing, the limits to how much it offers for users creativeness are quite impressive.

[url]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7688956389104405762&q=derren+b…]

This guy Derren Brown is brilliant. The arcade game in this video is what virtual reality was supposed to be like.

Oh my god.

That was amazing.

NO WAY!!

I was cracking up laughing but at the same time you've got to be a little weired out yourself. Amazing! Is it real? I prepared ot believe it is, but i just want to be sure.

Damn i want to play that now.

Merry Christmas [:D]. I'm definately looking forward to NYE. Got some nice plans [:D]

Merry Christmas, too :) And Souri - will you remember NYE?

Merry Christmas everyone, hope Santa came to you all!

Score, I got Civilization IV... goodbye rest of uni holidays!

quote:Originally posted by Jacana

Merry Christmas, too :) And Souri - will you remember NYE?

I sure hope so. My ticket cost around $150 [:X]

Santa hates me. I got Buzz for PS2. My PS2 is packed on it's way to Mt Isa. I won't see it till at least the 4rd of Jan. *sobs*

Got WarioWare Twisted for b'day though. Weeeee!

Bring on the New Year! Hope it's tops for y'all!! @:-D *hugs all round*

Gots me a PSP and SSX on tour :D Since i was down at phillip island with family it entertained me quite well. And souri... ouch! My Big Day Out ticket didnt even cost that much! ($120 with postage).

im interested in animal crossing, but i dont know much aboiut the game. i'll have to look at some websites and stuff to work out exactly what it is before i decide to buy it or not.

I have it :) I love the game, think it's great.

I need to get one of those Wi-Fi adaptors so I can use it over the net at home.

Livewire, its an odd game. One that you wont play for hours on end each day, rather 30mins or so each day for quite awhile. Lots of collecting items, trading them, upgrading houses, communicating with other townsfolk and visiting other ppl via wifi.

Jacana yeah you should get one, then we can come visit each others villages :)

Geting MarioKart soon as well. Heard thats heaps of fun.

Me! I'll be picking up a wi-fi for my home network soon too.
It's a very fun game, nicely paced too so that you never play it for too long each day.

In it's very basic form, Animal Crossing is a collection "game". You get to swap items with the townspeople, collect items to put in the museum, shop, get special event items, etc, etc. You get to help develop the town by planting flowers and trees. You collect different types of fruits (each town only starts with 1 type of fruit) and plant those to get a range of fruits. Write letters and swap gifts with the other townspeople.

If you wanted to you could play it for hours just collecting all teh fruit to sell, fishing, collecting bugs - but the game really aimed at gamers with limited time. Besides, if you pland the game for hours on end I am sure you would find yourself really bored of the game in just a few days.

Makk - MarioKart sooooo impressed me. A friend brought the game over and I had a ball watching the three guys play. It was great to see the game take such full use of the WiFi capabilities. You only need the 1 game and you can have up to 8 players play - they can just download the maps as you play along. And I'll make sure to keep in touch with my friend code once I get the WiFi adaptor! I really love the idea of seeing other "Real" people run around in the town!

My town only has oranges... this sucks because I don't like oranges much. What fruit does everyone have?

I started off with peaches. However, my mother was kind and sent me an apple! Now I have a small apple orchard going :)

hey ive got animal crossing!
i need friends so bad!
Town: McTown
Name: Rachael
ID: 257760164706

ill add you to mine Makk
anyone else please add me to yours, its getting kinda lonely in McTown with all my McPeaches.
send me an email with you details at: rufflepun@hotmail.com
Town: McTown
Name: Rachael
ID: 2577 6016 4706

Heh, I only have oranges to at the moment. I tried planting an apple tree but it died :(
Jacana and Kezza give us a yell if you get wifi :)
rufflepun, added you to my list. Just checked but you not online, oh well.
Im gonna leave my gate open for awhile if you want to visit :)

Oooo :) Decided to be brave and set up my wireless network. After a headache, two panadol, and one firmware upgrade later I got it connected.

My friend code is: 3178-8977-5171
My town is: Tiggerie
My name: Cheryl

Just got mine working, after a long ordeal with a very crappy access point that didn't support a DS.
Friend Code: 3007-0993-5163
Town Name: Verilom
My Name: Kez

Ok :) Animal Crossing Blog -

I went to visit Kez today. That was very cool. I made sure to fill my pockets with new fruit to bring to the new land with me. I got to leave a message on his message board, meet up with his townspeople, write letters, and get new fruits for my town. After all of that Kez came over to my town, and brought with him a load of his "common" fruit to sell at 500 each. Along with him, it seems that some of his towns star map have come across to my town. I also got a letter from one of his townspeople. And I am now have oranges to add to my fruit list.

All in all it was great, the chat is somewhat clunky, and very limited to number of characters, but overall this is very much how Animal Crossing should be played :) I think this may have been the first virtual Sumea meet-up. If we get a few more people with AC, I think we should try and organise a virtual Sumea meet-up once a month!

As for other things, tip swapping:
You can get red turnips (radishes) from Joan on Sundays. You plant them and water them for a week then dig them up. Mine sold for 14,000.
Roll up two of the snowballs you see laying around into a big and small snowball, put them close to each other, and you get a snowman. The snowman talks to you, and will send you a letter with a special snowman series item.

My fruit check: Apples, Oranges, Peaches, and Coconuts (they wash up on the beach).

hah cool!
Yeah, I was thinking that we should do a meetup. Though I think the limit is 4 ppl at the one time.
Chat is a little clunky isnt and I have been disconnected a few times as well :(
Thats alot of fruit there Jacana :) I think you can get pears as well. Heh, didnt know that about the snowman.
Just paid off my second mortage, wohoo! Cant wait to see what hte new house upgrade will look like.

Not sure when you are normally on Makk, but I thought I might leave my DS on for a while and see what happens. I have added you on to my IM list :) Maybe if you are around tonight you may want to drop by. Warning - Kezz may well strip my town of all peaches before then. It feels like a drug run, or something. Being a fruit mule!

haha, saw that the other day. I like the one about the music.

Want blue sky? Play Gorillas. Simple. :-P

Gorillas kicks ass. Especially when you hit the sun with a banana.

*does the gorilla victory dance*

Scott.

quote:Games need BLUE SKIES! Games need BRIGHT YELLOW SUNS! Games need RED AND BLUE THINGS in them! We want to play in a HAPPY PRETEND LAND, not a **** version of an American slum full of mixed-race gangsters wearing licensed sportswear!

While I agree about product placement (eg licensed sportswear) being Evil (tm) I prefer Kipper's point of view
quote:Let's not retreat to fluffy la-la land when it comes to youth culture in a time of war and social injustice.

[:)]

IMHO those blue sky people need brain transplants. Ideally brains with IQs over 40...

edit: I think this thread could have almost gone under political games btw mcdrewski, not that it matters.

I think you're taking the site a bit to seriously Lorien.

quote:Originally posted by LiveWire

I think you're taking the site a bit to seriously Lorien.

I hope so... [;)]

They have some good points on the site, but they're mixed up with really dumb ones. Edit: the site is quite inflammatory, and I suspect mcdrewski was trying to get a reaction out of me anyway [;)]

Lucky you're wearing your tin foil hat. [:P]

Scott.

quote:Originally posted by rezn0r

Lucky you're wearing your tin foil hat. [:P]

Scott.

[:D] Read the 2nd page political games thread where I posted that Kipper quote above.

Imho mcdrewski is very smart [;)]

My "intelligent" disguise is working [:P] If I can just get lorien to invest in my Brooklyn Bridge buyout I'll be ready to retire.

But yes, this is just a continuation of the old debate of games as play vs games as story vs games as medium for change.

That said, I see more political commentary and good work for change in the happy-fun-world of FF-VII or the future sci-fi of HL2 than in COD2, BF2, or in any of the GTA games. Maybe it's my middle-class sensibilities but I just don't find any resonance or relevence to next week's "GangWar3000".

Tell me that blue skies and talking animals aren't able to be political and then look at Animal Farm. I just see those games with a fantastic created world as more fun. More blue skies say I.

Edit: of course the original reason I posted the link was that I found it bloody funny.

quote:Originally posted by mcdrewski

My "intelligent" disguise is working [:P] If I can just get lorien to invest in my Brooklyn Bridge buyout I'll be ready to retire.

Afraid I'm fairly bright too mcdrewski... [:)]
quote:
But yes, this is just a continuation of the old debate of games as play vs games as story vs games as medium for change.

I personally am not so much into games as medium for change (that's Kipper's area), I'm more interested in seeing where games can be taken as a medium. That bluesky site is basically saying "don't do that", without much thought about games still being quite new and unexplored territory as a medium.
quote:
I just don't find any resonance or relevence to next week's "GangWar3000".

That's one of the things I agree with too.
quote:
Tell me that blue skies and talking animals aren't able to be political and then look at Animal Farm. I just see those games with a fantastic created world as more fun. More blue skies say I.

I prefer Huxley's Brave New Word and Island, along with Orwell's 1984 to Animal Farm (also George Orwell), but that's a good point. Edit: I think perhaps there's a warning for game developers in Huxley's message about soma (the perfect hallucinigenic drug without side effects) in Brave New World.
I'm a big Zelda fan btw, so I do like some "fluffy la-la land" type games [:)]. I have no problem at all with saying "More blue skies", so long as it's not saying that people shouldn't be making anything else.

Edit: also I understand that many gamers are in their mid 20's/early 30's, which is part of why people have been getting annoyed about there being no R rating in Aus. My poin being that if you really tailor a game for the older market you could still sell a lot of copies. Though of course you could also make something as "read between the lines" as Animal Farm and go for that G rating [:)]

Jesus christ all mighty, why don't you just marry this Kipper fella.

Politics in games. I duno, the geneeral gamer could care less about that shit. Then again, I guess thats the whole change part so all the power to him.

Blue skys in games. I agree, that site is mad, more blue skys and happy music. Especially in racing games and soccer games, this fifa and needforspeed shit is shit.

quote:Originally posted by denz

Jesus christ all mighty, why don't you just marry this Kipper fella.

[:)] Kipper is another old friend. Happens to have caused quite a stir with EFW amongst other things. Do I have to point out I'm male yet again? [:(]

quote:
Politics in games. I duno, the geneeral gamer could care less about that shit. Then again, I guess thats the whole change part so all the power to him.

Doesn't worry me. I was a little involved with EFW is my connection to political games. I find games with substance more enjoyable than games made from fluff, but that's just personal preference. I prefer books to movies too.

quote:
Blue skys in games. I agree, that site is mad, more blue skys and happy music. Especially in racing games and soccer games, this fifa and needforspeed shit is shit.

I'd rather just high quality games that engage the brain a little. Blue skies or not.

hehe yeah i know your a guy, was just havin a go.

Yeah sure games can have substance and stuff, I agree. Games to me though are about tuning out, like watching an action flick.
A way to get away from the world for 10 minutes, rather then delve more into it.

Politics can kiss my hairy ass..

A Point - Issue ? Moral lesson however is something not many games ever try to do. Most of the time we put 100% of our hearts into both entertainment and graphics.. And usually the game with poorer graphics has better storylines.

Dark Chronicle is a good example. The game has a story but between the lines it had a few moral points it wanted to make. One was that revenge isn?t the answer to justice. Another was to never forget and repeat the horrible mistakes of history. But these points where never said in point blank. The storyline weaved it into the game.

If I ever get to design my own idea.. Rest assured it comes with a moral to it.

quote:Originally posted by Caroo

Politics can kiss my hairy ass..

Maybe you should be locked up in the Woomera detention centre (even though it's closed now) for 5 or so years without trial. Then see how you feel about politics [:0] (joking btw Caroo).

quote:Originally posted by lorien

quote:Originally posted by Caroo

Politics can kiss my hairy ass..

Maybe you should be locked up in the Woomera detention centre (even though it's closed now) for 5 or so years without trial. Then see how you feel about politics [:0] (joking btw Caroo).

That?s a good come back. But you already now what i mean XD. I think Australian on a whole would listen into politics more if the pollys actually did something for the little or underprivileged once in a while. Wether they do or not at the moment it feels like our government cares for nothing more then economy and would happily turn everything over to privatisation if they could.. Hell their doing there best at it right now...bye bye telstra you?re now owned by Mexico ?Mochas Greasies Big pond XD!!?

Like many. When i say "politics can kiss my ass" it doesn?t mean I have no knowledge of it.. it just means I?m totally sick of general incompetence of ensure better quality of life rather then self pocket filling.

As far as I see it. Democracy only comes once every 4 years, in the mean time you?re the bitch of the richies!!

XD ok. I?ve had my fun. I?ll shut-ta my face now!!

quote:Originally posted by Caroo

quote:Originally posted by lorien

quote:Originally posted by Caroo

Politics can kiss my hairy ass..

Maybe you should be locked up in the Woomera detention centre (even though it's closed now) for 5 or so years without trial. Then see how you feel about politics [:0] (joking btw Caroo).

Wether they do or not at the moment it feels like our government cares for nothing more then economy and would happily turn everything over to privatisation if they could..

Maybe you should be unemployed or "working poor" for 5 or so years, then see how you feel about being dismissive of the economy.

pb

My favourite error is one I wish I had a screenshot of.

Error
"There is not enough memory to display this dialog box."
[OK]

The scary thing is I think I know what they mean :)

quote:Originally posted by mcdrewski

My favourite error is one I wish I had a screenshot of.

Error
"There is not enough memory to display this dialog box."
[OK]

The scary thing is I think I know what they mean :)

Sorry mcdrewski, but just can't resist... During the development of Hail we saw Auran Jet (we tried a very early and buggy Jet before writing our own engine) pop up a dialog which said "A fatal error occurred during display of the fatal error dialog" or something like it. Likewise no screenshot [:(] It happened more than a few times...

I love the boot ones that go...

"No Keyboard detected... Press F1 to continue or DEL to enter setup"

[:D]

"Error: Not enough memory to delete file, please free up disk space" or something along those line

"No Keyboard detected, press any key to continue"

quote:Originally posted by lorien
Sorry mcdrewski, but just can't resist... During the development of Hail we saw Auran Jet (we tried a very early and buggy Jet before writing our own engine) pop up a dialog which said "A fatal error occurred during display of the fatal error dialog" or something like it. Likewise no screenshot [:(] It happened more than a few times...

Hey, I work QA - I've seen more error messages than I care to talk about and there's no shame in it either way. After all, I have seen many more much bigger and prestigous companies' frameworks/engines give very similar "ohmigod everything's broken" messages [:)]

quote:Originally posted by mcdrewski
Hey, I work QA - I've seen more error messages than I care to talk about and there's no shame in it either way. After all, I have seen many more much bigger and prestigous companies' frameworks/engines give very similar "ohmigod everything's broken" messages [:)]

I just couldn't resist hassling you a little [;)] I said "very early version"...

I'm pretty sure I've seen a dialogue box on Troy's computer where it was just and exclamation mark with an OK button.... wasn't too sure what it meant though :/

Indeed, I still have that screenshot somewhere too. If I come across it at some stage I'll put it up here.

I saw that many-a-time working with Jet when I was doing my Dip of IT. Can't remember how to reproduce it as its been awhile, I think it had to do with something with opening a second debug screen or something. Who knows.

Auran's own Jet error message... error displaying the fatal error window...

"An error occurred trying to display the fatal error window"

Though I understand the reluctance on sumea imho M$ are a far better target than Auran. M$ really deserve it.

It might require specific drivers, which might require kernel mode. This is a problem as home brew under firmware 2.0 cannot utilise kernel mode - so no wireless :-(. You could try downgrading your PSP to 1.5 for kernel mode stuff, but be careful you don't brick it. Then you'd have to get the driver or write one (don't know how viable this is as I only have 2.0 on mine).