General Chat

openGL is supported by your graphics card driver or not. You do not need to download anything other than your specific card's latest drivers.

Thank's mcdrewski,my card(xfx 7600gt) does support opengl,but at the momment i can only use direct3d in 3dmax just wondering why i can't use opengl.
Is there a way to check or activate opengl?

the reason is *probably* that you're using XP64. I hear there are technical issues with XP64 using both 64bit and 32bit DLLs. do you know if your card supports it in any *other* applications (WoW? 3dmark?).

If so - you have a 3dmax issue of some kind - I really don't know enough to help sorry :(
If not - you have a winXP64 issue - you can go back to xp32 or live with the DX9 implementation...

Glad to see some other people suffering the same kind of problems I am. I can run OpenGL but it is really buggy with my copy of Max7.
I cant display materials in the view port and all vertex points in my edit mesh are displayed as black even when selected. When I switch to ploygons in edit mesh all invisible edges are displayed as though they were visible edges.
On top of this it is impossible to do spline modelling because any new line created is not displayed unless display renderable mesh is selected.
I downloaded the latest drivers for my graphics card but didnt help.
Have recently switched to using Max8 and it works perfectly.

getting pirated copies of a game we had made was the highlight at one of the places i have worked :)

I think 'shady goings' happens in any industry really, particularly in small companies. Generally (yes from first hand experience) if they're skimping on the software, they're raping you as well.

I don't know how far I should go into this, as it is a touchy subject but my first job out of Uni was like that. I'd admit it, I was extremely naive, but in hindsight I should've quit when I smelt something fishy (software was just one of those things). Yet I was stubborn enough to keep on going as they pumped words of 'potential' in me. They lied to me about clients not paying them, so therefore they couldn't pay me, I did all the work, they used it commercially, and then came back to me and said it was all training. To top it off, he laughed at me as well.

Again if I knew the laws and what I could've done at the time, I would've done something instead of lying in my bed everyday in shock. They even threatened me with legal action if I was to use any of the work I did for them as proof against them (it was a big client). I was disturbed also that he was getting alot of like-minded wide eyed students from Uni's to get them to do work because of the opportunity to showcase their talent on a big stage. This company doesn't pay them of course - but for some students I suppose you have to take the chance (particularly artists).

All in all I'm not sitting here pouting as I'm sorta trying to get over it. But it did knock a lot of wind out of my sails. Trying to erase it out of my head is hard, because they have, and still are getting away with it.

It was a bad experience, but one I had to have they say....

IronhideNT dude either we worked for the same guy or there are allot more of the shady bosses out there than I would like to imagine while I was employed there I saw a constant stream of uni "work experience" happening all of the work they produced going into the pitch and most of them being feed the same rubbish I was before I was employed by them.

My advice to people out there is to read you contracts before you sign if you feel you need legal advice to be on the safe side don't be afraid to go to legal aid they have lawyers that specialize in employment law and for simple advice eg award rates etc call wageline.

if they feel they can get away with it they will try

Welcome to the real world Nomads ;) ...this is common within the industry and has been going on for years.

Wow, and I thought the local game development industry was the greatest in the entire world... someone has definitely pulled-the-wool over my eyes, huh!? [;)]

I'm glad I'm changing careers while I still can :)

I'm afraid pirate software is used in a lot more industries than games. It is particularly ironic when software companies use pirate software to make the things they sell though...

well, from experience - a lot of these small studios simply cannot afford the software, there is no way they can afford to license numerous copies of OS,3D,2D,SVN... etc whilst still trying to keep their employees paid, whilst still trying to please a demanding investor that gives, in return, too little to legitimately purchase the software, let alone putting the devs on a wage that respects their efforts and skills...

most of the time these small startup devs are living (sometimes literally) from paycheck to paycheck from the publishers... its the "steal a loaf of bread to feed the family" situation. I do not condone piracy - but its a necessary evil for a lot small companies struggling just to keep afloat.

quote:Originally posted by Nomads
while I was employed there I saw a constant stream of uni "work experience" happening all of the work they produced going into the pitch

Vents very loud curses at sleazebag bosses who fail to understand that education/training is not really supposed to be some kind of cheap labour farm for industry (I've had personal experience with 2).

quote:
My advice to people out there is to read you contracts before you sign if you feel you need legal advice to be on the safe side don't be afraid to go to legal aid they have lawyers that specialize in employment law and for simple advice eg award rates etc call wageline.

if they feel they can get away with it they will try

Agreed wholeheartedly.

quote:Originally posted by urgrund

well, from experience - a lot of these small studios simply cannot afford the software, there is no way they can afford to license numerous copies of OS,3D,2D,SVN... etc

Sorry, that's no excuse in my book: they should be using Linux and porting to windows/consoles. The only thing you really have to buy is 3d packages and 1 or 2 copies of windows. SVN is Free software btw.

The problem with your "stealing bread to feed the family" metaphor is that there is free bread everywhere. If despite that you're (NOT you Urgrund!) stealing it anyway you deserve everything coming to you imho.

the company used to have money I think they just blew it all ages ago now they seam to rely on one of the bosses silver tongue to pull people into their web.

All things said having the chance to work in the industry in my home state was a great learning experience got me some hands on experience with the art pipeline for renderware and got to see my stuff on the PS2 which I must say was just awesome and on top of all that I have come out a little wiser about the nature of the industry.

The only way I can really sum it up is dream job with out the dream conditions.I guess the go now is to just keep working to find another dev job with a good company.

quote:Originally posted by Nomads

So I have just finished up at a games dev company and to tell the truth one of the things that I felt was most out of place was the piracy this nameless company ran pirated games that it would use as reference for artists and programmers there weren?t heap and heaps of titles but piracy coming from a company that would be up in arms if they found another company pirating their stuff is just stupid.

The past web companies I have worked for had software from dubious origins, and I hear stories all the time from my friends and people in the IT field about their torrents, movies, and software hocking. It's one of those things that's fairly common (particularly in the fields of IT), unashamedly accepted, though not often talked about.

I'm not saying it's right, but to think that it doesn't happen at all is a bit naive I think. Wasn't there a program that Microsoft released that was found to have been edited/produced with a cracked version of another program in the past?

quote:Originally posted by Souri
It's one of those things that's fairly common (particularly in the fields of IT), unashamedly accepted, though not often talked about.

I think there is a big difference between individual piracy and corporate piracy in that individual piracy is generally not making money from stealing others work.

quote:
Wasn't there a program that Microsoft released that was found to have been edited/produced with a cracked version of another program in the past?

I seem to remember they released some self extracting archives that had been made with an unregistered WinZip

quote:Originally posted by lorien
I think there is a big difference between individual piracy and corporate piracy in that individual piracy is generally not making money from stealing others work.

Exactly, in fact many software companies aren't overly worried about individuals who use pirated software for non-profit use... their logic is that if you're learning how to use their product, chances are you will eventually buy a licence.

quote:Originally posted by Red 5

quote:Originally posted by lorien
I think there is a big difference between individual piracy and corporate piracy in that individual piracy is generally not making money from stealing others work.

Exactly, in fact many software companies aren't overly worried about individuals who use pirated software for non-profit use... their logic is that if you're learning how to use their product, chances are you will eventually buy a licence.

NOT ONLY THAT!!! But those, like me who cannot afford ether the tuition fees of a game development course or the alternative buying a program like adobe, or 3Dmax need to rely on the unspoken truth that if your using it to train up and get into the industry then you're not going to be hunted down by the feds.

If in the case say for instance, every guy sitting in his room with a copy of illegal 3D max that?s training himself up to make a folio got arrested. Then discreet would be chopping down half their overall profits. This is because the industry is filled with a mixture of both those who paid for the fancy classes and those who sat down and taught themselves. By cutting down the "not formally educated" class I swear to you you'll be doing the industry a world of hurt.

As for inside a studio with an ABN number. Everything you use to make a game should be legal as your going to make money off it. And one has to remember that a lot of these programs are tax deductible to a fair degree. XD

As a side note, I was talking to a Max rep a few years ago who told me (can't remember the exact figures) that there were 2000 (licenced) 3DS Max seats in China, but one particular Max instructional book had sold more than 50,000 copies there... that tells you something ;)

quote:Originally posted by Red 5

As a side note, I was talking to a Max rep a few years ago who told me (can't remember the exact figures) that there were 2000 (licenced) 3DS Max seats in China, but one particular Max instructional book had sold more than 50,000 copies there... that tells you something ;)

And I would believe that man. The problem is a circler ferrous-wheel of economic shit.

People Pirate such things because they refuse to pay $5000 for one program for one user.

And the companies ups and ups their price due to both rareness of legal sales and R&D.

Frankly. I see this never being resolved though. Maya was good and offered the learning edition for free. But with so many critical features lost [for example , the ability to use plug-ins.]

quote:Originally posted by Caroo
[quote]
NOT ONLY THAT!!! But those, like me who cannot afford ether the tuition fees of a game development course or the alternative buying a program like adobe, or 3Dmax need to rely on the unspoken truth that if your using it to train up and get into the industry then you're not going to be hunted down by the feds.

I'm afraid Bill Gates seems to have some different plans with Vista (treacherous computing) [:(] The FSF have started a campaign labelling Vista and all DRM equipped products as "Defective by Design" http://www.defectivebydesign.org/

quote:Originally posted by lorien

quote:Originally posted by Caroo
[quote]
NOT ONLY THAT!!! But those, like me who cannot afford ether the tuition fees of a game development course or the alternative buying a program like adobe, or 3Dmax need to rely on the unspoken truth that if your using it to train up and get into the industry then you're not going to be hunted down by the feds.

I'm afraid Bill Gates seems to have some different plans with Vista (treacherous computing) [:(] The FSF have started a campaign labelling Vista and all DRM equipped products as "Defective by Design" http://www.defectivebydesign.org/

People campaign when they ether have had enough of something or have something to really fear. Bill probably falls into the second more so then the first.

quote:Originally posted by Caroo
People campaign when they ether have had enough of something or have something to really fear. Bill probably falls into the second more so then the first.

Getting off topic, but yes the free software community really have something to fear from DRM, and it has nothing to do with piracy. DRM threatens free software with extinction- it's detailed in the treacherous computing link I posted in the thread on copyright and filesharing

Piracy as any educational tool with a view that you should eventually be purchasing a legit copy ok really really common many a year ago I was at Qantam and I have to say that I don't think I can recall a single student that didn't have a pirated copy of max while learning. Many or at least a few of these people are now working in the industry and have since made the purchase.

Piracy as entertainment again very common again I can't think of a single gamer that hasn't copied a game or two in their time.

But if your in the industry all that crap should stop there should a bit more respect than to pirate another companies games no matter what the purpose. I mean come on it really doesn?t cost that much to pay for a game and it you can?t afford it perhaps you should be asking if you really have to money be running a games dev company.

Well at least that?s my take I can kind of get into a rant sometimes.

Thought I should point out that Bill Gates has confessed to piracy [:D]

http://www.computerworld.com/blogs/node/2803 though it comes from Wall Street Journal

quote:
WSJ: You watch physics lectures and Harlem Globetrotters [on YouTube]?
Gates: This social-networking thing takes you to crazy places.
WSJ: But those were stolen, correct?
Gates: Stolen's a strong word. It's copyrighted content that the owner wasn't paid for. So yes.

Hope someone sues him [;)]

One of the best finishes I've ever seen. Three goals in eight minutes?!

About ten minutes before Australia scored their first goal, the camera panned to a pair of very upset looking Aussies. My housemates and I chatted briefly about how disappointing it must be to travel so far to see their team get beaten, all because of such a contraversial goal by Japan. A few minutes later, they would have been very happy indeed.

I wish I could have stayed up longer to watch USA get flogged by the Czechs [:)]

Im totally suprised to be honest, i remember when we won the match to qaulify to get into the world cup. We were fighting to be 30 something were not exactly top of the pile. Was a great game

yeah me too,

see i went to bed like with like 10 mins to go...

damn.

I saw the match as well. Was totally bummed for most of it, pretty much like everyone else. There was a bit in the game where the camera was on two Aussie supporters in the stand, and you could see the disappointment in their faces. I had that same sinking feeling I had when Australia were beaten in the qualifying matches for the World Cup in 2002 and 98 (and probably 94 as well) where we "almost" made it, but just didn't. Just like those matches, the sense of dread when the clock is running down and it looks nigh on impossible for the Socceroos to make a comeback, it's just all too much! At 6 minutes to go, I'm pretty sure everyone was conceding a loss to Japan, but then those quick 3 goals happened - it was pretty unbelievable!

Anyway, I get drawn in while watching sports a bit too much, especially when Australia is concerned. I wanted to boot the tv in when Pat Rafter lost to Goran Ivanisevic at the Wimbledon in 2001. [:(]

GUTTED.

Why the hell is there no vid ref in this game? More shit calls then you could poke a stik at.

owell next one ay boys.

Clearly a shit call, but I'd say the striker did a better job of sucking the ref in than neil did of feigning innocence. I recall many a decision exactly like it, in this world cup and previous. The time and importance is irrelevant.

Still, the refs have been ordinary to say the least, so the decision didnt surprise me. Defenders jumping to punch the ball away from corner crosses come to mind.

Totally gutted. Worst possible way to bail out of the world cup, ever.

Bummer, but thats why football is the most popular sport in the world, because of the controversy. Vid assistance would hurt the game more than it would help it. Football was never supposed to be a clean cut sport. Theatrical dives, sinister tackles, dubious referrees are what make the game controversial, especially in some parts of the world. Oh that and scoring great goals.

What about vid assistance on important calls, such as penalties, or when handing out red cards, etc.

I know it keeps the game going quickly by not looking back at what the ref has said, but it also puts SO much pressure on the ref.

Its not a usual thing though, we really did have bad luck when it came to the refs. Most games you watch at the end you talk about how well or badly the teams played. Our games all you could talk about was how badly the refs calls were, whether we won or lost.

Its pretty rediculous, that with the money involved in such a sport that vid assistance isnt used. The whole fact is, that the 'italian drama queens' that use their fake hits, is a for of defense. It slows the game down, almost to a halt when the stretcher comes on, then they happily jump up, and everything is ok. This is rediculous - time wasting. And if you worked out the cost of the few minutes they waste.. itd be millions.

Any professional sport that wants to have the highest calibre ethics, should be thoroughly scrutinized. And video assistance should be used. Its good enough for cricket and other sports, why not soccer? Give the ref a wireless headset to confirm/deny decisions and get the crooks out of the game - youd see much faster more fluid gameplay, and alot less stop/start crap from teams that rely on it to slow down fast attacking teams: see the germany v italy game for a good reference, the second half had a couple of drama incidents (clearly not even any contact on the replay) and free's were given.

A good sport, is a sport played by good sports people. Not a bunch of overpaid actors.

I don't usually watch soccer, or sport in general, but I more or less agree with both arguments:

1) The "theatrics" is part of the sport as it is another part of the "strategy" used to win a game, as the game is not so much about brute force as in some sports, but rather skill and tactics of the teams involved. I also like how it adds that something extra like to the strategy element, as much of strategy can be about bluffing and creating an illusion to the opposition.

2) They need to get with the times and realise that there are a lot of technologies out there that make sports fairer for good reason. And if other sports have readily adopted it, well, so should soccer to a degree as well.

Having a team get away with something that is not crucial to a match, is ok in the spirit of the sport, as it is rather theatrical in the way they bluff and attempt to get any leverage they can over the other side. But having something that occurs in a crucial part of the match, have it go ahead and then proven to be bullshit afterwards with video footage - footage that surely could have been reviewed on sight almost immediately - is a fucking joke.

Especially as it easily handed the game unfairly to the Italian team - it is not like it was a long shot chance they would score that goal. So it is not like it created "good" and "entertaining" soccer - all it created was bitterness, and a diminished faith in the sport.

My guess is that the reason that so many have criticised the refereeing of the world cup, is due to other sports having adopted far more technology for fairer games since the last world cup. But soccer on the other hand, has chosen to lag behind this progress that has been adopted by other sports - so people are unwilling to accept bullshit calls like that, as they have come to accept far better.

Though I think it is not just a matter of adopting technology, but also a matter of either educating match official or just firing them for their idiocy.

I know one thing only... at coles. When Australia was in the game, The Milo + Soccer ball was selling at $12:50 when we lost the game.. It went to $7:50 ... what does that tell you guys?

I have little sympathy.. Because as I?ve seen this sport form the blank perspective...those who never cared for the sport one bit instantly loved it when their team got into something they hadn't in a lifetime and instantly became friggen experts of the sport. Then as we fail through whatever means it may be legal or illegal or bullshit.. Those people ether once again ignored the sport, or got violent.

But considering all the shit that follows soccer..eh..not interested.

It?s just a sport?

Btw, just to note, I didnt single out the Italian team for beating Aus. It was purely for the antic's they put on against Germany - it was quite a shocking display. I consider myself a casual football watcher, I have SBS running on my server most of the time and often catch the odd English or European games - I generally watch them through if the game is interesting and flowing, I refuse to watch horrible slow drama defense games. Its just amazing though, that a player can get paid say 20-40 million dollars salary, to 'fake' frees. Can anyone imagine how bad that would go down in Aussie rules? I mean, we use video for vetting such things anyway, but the ethics alone wouldnt stand for it in the game, same with ARL.. so its very surprising to see the most wealthy sport, having the least ethical approach to quite obviously serious problems.

Don't think the article is full of flames btw (can't help but notice this topic seems a bit hot on sumea, though it's had lots of posts elswhere) [;)] it really is a good read.

had a read through, interesting stuff. Spose it was only a matter of time before the pirate bay got nabbed (allthough the differences in piracy laws in sweeden did help it live a while longer) but its like pushing out bubbles under wallpaper, another one will just pop up somewhere else.

Actually I believe they're already up and running again- there was a headline about it on reddit.com and afaik they've done nothing illegal. I think the pirate bay was formed by a Swedish filesharing political party.

Edit: from slashdot http://yro.slashdot.org/yro/06/06/03/1220249.shtml
quote:
Many readers have submitted news that The Pirate Bay is back online, operating for now as "The Police Bay." Writes one anonymous submitter: "Pirate Bay got new hardware, moved the servers abroad and used recent backups. So the only bad side-effect of this police raid is that hundreds of clients of the ISP PRQ still have not got their servers back from the police. When the police did the raid on Wednesday, they took Pirate Bay from Bankgirot's secure server room. Then they also took all the servers in PRQ colocation facility STH3, effectively disabling a lot of small companies. The connection between PRQ and TPB? - Same owners, nothing more, this is beginning to become a huge scandal in Sweden with coverage on TV and all newspapers 4 days in a row.

Although obviously torrent files don't actually hold any copyrighted information, so it's been interesting to see how companies and associations have been tackling the bittorrent issue.

It's also been interesting to see how different countries are treating copyright, and the headaches that organisations like the MPAA or the RIAA must have when they try to deal with it.

Another site in the news recently is AllofMp3.com. Hosted in Russia and selling songs for something like 10 cents each, without paying any royalties to the copyright owners. Apparently, that website may cause some trouble for Russia [url="http://politics.slashdot.org/politics/06/06/03/1727232.shtml"]joining the World Trade Organization[/url]. It's actually quite surprising how many these Russian MP3 sites have cropped up in recent times. Do a search for mp3 in google and you'll see them.

Also, Kotaku had a news item about a store in Russia that sells bootlegged games where they just couldn't get the [url="http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/max-payne-2/max-payne-mispellings-176856.p…"]tricky name of Max Payne[/url] correct on the DVD cover [:D] (it looks like they were also selling Max Payne 2 mods as well o_O ). I can imagine the kind of spellings on bootlegged games and movies from China. [:)]

Don't know about on the mainland, but in Hong Kong the packaging on pirate media is just as flashy as the originals... They try to make it really bloody hard to tell pirate from genuine (tourist trade). There are also huge warning signs in the airport warning travellers about all the trouble they can get themselves into taking cds/dvds out of the country

And as for the RIAA and MPAA- suing fans really isn't very bright at all... I personally think they should take a break from taking grandmas and 5 year olds to court. The RIAA have even tried to sue someone who has never had a computer in their home http://recordingindustryvspeople.blogspot.com/2006/02/marie-lindor-to-m… , she's forcing it to court [:D] This one is interesting- seems like they have problems in their tracking software, they're just picking names to sue at random, or they've been cracked.

As was pointed out on slashdot yesterday The Pirate Bay is likely more legal than google: apparently the full film Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas was available for streaming and download all weekend from google video... That's copyrighted material hosted on google's servers, and google certainly index the sleazy and nasty side of the 'net. Just like The Pirate Bay... Wonder when google will get raided for having links to warez in their search engine...

Sorry Souri, shouldn't have mentioned those wonderful, honest and ethical associations... Got me started it did [;)] http://news.com.com/2100-1030_3-6076665.html under the heading "MPAA accused of hiring a hacker" (though CNET are misusing the word hacker- hackers make things, crackers break things. This is a cracker).

quote:
One MPAA executive is quoted in Torrentspy's lawsuit as saying: "We don't care how you get it," referring to the alleged assignment to dig up information on Torrentspy.

Some of the information that the man allegedly pilfered included a spreadsheet containing Torrentspy income and expenses from January to June 2005, copies of private e-mails between Torrentspy employees, detailed information on the company's servers, and billing information, according to the lawsuit.
Torrentspy alleges in the suit that the man, whom the company refers to as the "informant," has provided documents that prove the nature of his relationship with the MPAA, including a written agreement signed by the hacker and an MPAA executive, Rothken said.

To spell out the "read between the lines" in this out of context quote Torrentspy are suing the MPAA over it.

Its amazing the amount of legal battles that are flying backwards and forwards like some giant mesh of acusations. Id actually like to see a sueing data flow diagram of sorts >.< . The big one that is racketeering ive only heard turn up once from some poor mother of a sue-ee which ofcourse didnt really go far.

It's a bit of a war, and it's about to get really huge with the relase of Vista with all the Treacherous Computing (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/can-you-trust.html) DRM.

To spell this out I think companies like those in HK making money out of selling pirate works should be hung, drawn and quatered. It's simply not on. On the other hand chasing individual downloaders mostly makes enemies.

Still the problem is that digital data is meant to be able to be copied perfectly and infinite number of times. I'd suggest if you're in the content business it would be a good idea to come up with a business model that exploits this fact rather than fights it. DRM is an attempt to break an innate property of information stored in digital formats, and as such it's likely to be pointless in the long run.

From the Jargon File (maintained by Eric S. Raymond) http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/C/copy-protection.html
quote:
copy protection: n.
A class of methods for preventing incompetent pirates from stealing software and legitimate customers from using it. Considered silly.

The Treacherous Computing link I provided above is written by Richard Stallman- president of the Free Software Foundation. Here's a story he's written about the Brave New World media companies appear to be steering us towards. It's called "The right to read" and is likely to really make you think about things... http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html

One would have thought Hollywood would want to keep the Free Software geeks on side- it's these geeks who have freely given Hollywood pieces of critical infrastructure (like Linux) they use to make the movies.

I dont even see how downloading copyright material from a server in another country has anything to do with RIAA/MPAA. wouldnt it just be a customs thing ?

you arnt actually making a copy, just getting some 1's and 0's sent in over the phone cables.

like lorien said, they put the signs up in airports...

oh wait, i better add that i actually am strongly againts copyright infringment. i actually buy cds. even if the artist only gets 4c.

quote:Originally posted by boat
you arnt actually making a copy, just getting some 1's and 0's sent in over the phone cables.

Hmm, interesting point- those 0's and 1's are not actually a copy of a recording/film, they merely represent it. I wouldn't want to try arguing it though: is a digital photograph a photograph? [:)] I'd say it isn't, but it might as well be one.

It's also an interesting point because really every time we view a website we breach copyright regulations: we are viewing a copy that is sent to our computers. What's more web browsers store a cache of what we recieve, which makes it "downloading" as opposed to "streaming"- although the distinction is a false one.

[:)] yeah. but thats kinda my point. the laws just arnt up to scratch for this new internet thingy.

its illeal to bring copied cds into the country in a suitcase, but thats for customs to deal with not the **AA's.

im not saying its legal to get 1's and 0's over the phone line, just that the wrong people are trying to police it.

Cheers [:)]

That's getting into medium issues -- a copy is still a copy in a different medium, it's been argued and lost before, most notably with audio books (books made into audio cd's without licensing or authorisation). It's still the intellectual properties content, just a different medium I guess.

I think your missing my point.

i agree its intelluctual property still, but you dont see the RIAA at airports doing bag inspections.

I just dont see it as a copyright deal. its an importing deal. you arnt making copies, you just importing a copy that was made over seas, the material is copied on the host computer and the client gets it sent to them, if its the phone lines or the mail system i think it should be the same difference.

I think the whole idea of "Intellectual Property" does more harm than good and have thought so for years. Plenty of others think so too- particularly relating to patents.

Here's an argument coming from MARK A. LEMLEY at the Stanford Law School http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=582602

quote:
Abstract:
Courts and scholars have increasingly assumed that intellectual property is a form of property, and have applied the economic insights of Harold Demsetz and other property theorists to condemn the use of intellectual property by others as "free riding." In this article, I argue that this represents a fundamental misapplication of the economic theory of property. The economics of property is concerned with internalizing negative externalities - harms that one person's use of land does to another's interest to it, as in the familiar tragedy of the commons. But the externalities in intellectual property are positive, not negative, and property theory offers little or no justification for internalizing positive externalities. Indeed, doing so is at odds with the logic and functioning of the market. From this core insight, I proceed to explain why free riding is desirable in intellectual property cases except in limited circumstances where curbing it is necessary to encourage creativity. I explain why economic theory demonstrates that too much protection is just as bad as not enough protection, and therefore why intellectual property law must search for balance, not free riders. Finally, I consider whether we would be better served by another metaphor than the misused notion of intellectual property as a form of tangible property.

Boat: Didn't miss your point, you hit it on the head -- My comment was only regarding the translation of content through mediums.

I think the general idea behind IP is fine, the way that it's represented in law and voilently abused/protected is where I find the problem. Same feelings I have on the other side of the fence with the abuse of educational and freedom of data use - people just can't responsibly use things the way they're supposed to be, on both sides of the issue.

quote:Originally posted by J.I. Styles
Same feelings I have on the other side of the fence with the abuse of educational and freedom of data use

Not quite sure what you mean JI, could you expand a bit please?

IP is a very powerful tool. If we removed IP we might as well remove the validity of brand name power. Thus a company like..say..Coka Cola loses its right and laws to have only their drink be called coke cola. The share value plummets and in eastern sectors imitations pop up almost overnight.

IP is really a two-handard sword. It comes with positives and negatives. Corporations rely on it to function and impose its own entity. While independents want it off the face of the earth for the argument of freedom of creativity, rights and speech.

Personally. I'm for retooling the idea of 'IP' for the new generations. Covering over issues related to the Internet and to loosen the tight grip that big entities with IP have over those who don't. [IE: letting developers retain their IP from publishers.]

But that would require worldwide recognition and co-operation so I wouldn't expect it any time soon. Just a lot of the same ?ol silly lawsuits and charges coming about.

Something rather amusing: I gather a swedish company is now providing "RIAA insurance"- they'll insure you against the RIAA suing you!

Anyone speak swedish and want to translate? http://www.tankafritt.nu/

quote:Originally posted by Caroo
Thus a company like..say..Coka Cola loses its right and laws to have only their drink be called coke cola. The share value plummets and in eastern sectors imitations pop up almost overnight.

Hmm bad example: Coke is a trademark. Coke have the recipe and keep it secret. Linux is a trademark. Linus gave the recipe away free to everyone. Others helped make it better.

Coke bet the company on their recipe. IBM bet the company on Linux. Linux "imitations" are everywhere: they're called "distributions". Hasn't done anyone any harm (OK except Microsoft, SCO and a few others) and has done plenty of people a lot of good.

quote:
IP is really a two-handard sword. It comes with positives and negatives. Corporations rely on it to function and impose its own entity. While independents want it off the face of the earth for the argument of freedom of creativity, rights and speech.

Corporations have problems with it too: here's a quote from none other than Bill Gates (1991)

quote:
If people had understood how patents would be granted when most of today's ideas were invented and had taken out patents, the industry would be at a complete stand-still today. The solution . . . is patent exchanges . . . and patenting as much as we can. . . . A future start-up with no patents of its own will be forced to pay whatever price the giants choose to impose. That price might be high: Established companies have an interest in excluding future competitors. Fred Warshofsky, The Patent Wars 170-71 (NY: Wiley 1994).

Which explains MS patenting things like double clicking (US Patent 6,727,830)

sweet, thanks for the site.

i think its time for me to purchase 1 soon, my wrist sounds like a cement mixer... im only 18 :( haha

I?ve been meaning to get a wacom, I was looking at the graphire4 4x5 but this may change my mind. Is the graphire4 any better over the graphire3 and how much dose difference dose the size make?

As ive allready talked about in the artist section im a bit of a wacom newbie myself. Whats the actual difference between the graphire series (like 2,3,4 number wise). And im also interested in hearing what people say about wether or not size matters (im on a 4x5)

hmm, may be something to consider for my new lappy; I'd prefer a shiny new intuos, but at that price it's a pretty good deal.

As for peoples questions, Carlin: the graphire 4 is better than a 3, but it's still only an evolutional upgrade, so it's not a huge difference... for the most part it's just got more bells and whistles (which some are actually kind of annoying if you don't use them like the pad buttons). Graphire compared to an intuos is quite a lot more inferior in terms of basic specs (intuos pen is a nicer grip too).

Unfortunately wacom has taken it's older products out of its comparison charts, so it's hardly very useful anymore, but here's the url: http://www.wacom.com/productinfo/differences.cfm

That looks extremely appealing, I need to upgrade my existing wacom tablet, it's too small!

Bigger screen calls for bigger tablet.

Graphire series in my opinion does not stand the wear and tear like the intuos series.

I absolutely agree about the bigger screen = bigger tablet statement, but I also suggest to weigh it up against whether you draw from your wrist, or your elbow. Professionally I've had it drilled into me (and learnt from my own experiances) that drawing from the wrist is a fast track to repetitive stress injuries, but then drawing from the elbow is incredibly tiring for 8 hours a day. Lesson here is go for the middle ground of whats comfortable and whats ergonomically safer for you depending on your use.

I think 6x8 is too small for 1920x1200 but still works but can get annoying.
But by no means do I want to go bigger than A4 since I put the tablet on my lap and just look at the screen and draw.

Just throwing this out there but I grow up with the Quest games like Hero Quest, and Space Quest. both which you have to read and write in commands. Doesn't go as far as shooting zombies but you do shoot one or two bad guys with a lazer. I don't think the teachers should worry about that.. kids see more killing with lazers in starwars :P The only problem with these games are knowing what to do. So I think the kids will get fustrated and what something else to do. When these games came out the news paper at the time, it had little hints about the game every week. So if you worked it out.. great if not you would learn about how to do it soon enough [:)]

don't think that really helps at all [:p] but thats what I grew up on and had fun playing.

I thought http://www.seriousgames.org/ might be of some use, and I found this: http://muzzylane.gameinstitute.com/courses.php?coursedisplay=115 while looking at the blog. Got a spare 150USD? ;)

Thanks for that Redwyre. I may actually look into that course. Wonder if I could weasel the school to pay for it... @;-)

USF: I grew up with the Quests too. Damn good games. Though not educational, per se, however much I think they should be required gaming for everyone.

Kids games are great to look at in terms of educational games (edutainment). There are heaps: Dora the Explorer, The Magic School Bus, Winnie the Pooh, etc. Another game that I am very fond of is Zoo Tycoon. They have put in quite a lot about the animals, you learn about prefered habitats, etc.

Guessing you are looking for more "serious" educational titles, tho :)

As all games require you to improve and advance at that game by learning and mastering. All games from small to large are a form of education.

The issue however. What contexts do you want to expose to the students. Manhunts game mechanics and learning value is the same as any other FPS.. however the context is friggen awful for a child.

Kids are by no accounts stupid and if something comes along as tacky they?ll be the first to know. I personally think for young boys who can learn through videogames. The game has to be a mixture of game play and learning. Most of the edutainment programs out there... get boring quickly.

Rewards system is important to. Say the child takes a test. If he passes he gets to play a fun and educationally pointless arcade game. There by instilling in him that if he works and learns he will be rewarded.

Which is half the reason education currently sucks. Adults say education and learning is its own reward.. but if your a kid and you see no gain to learning.. will you?

My thoughts and some ideas that may be useful to the original poster.
quote:Originally posted by Caroo

The issue however. What contexts do you want to expose to the students. Manhunts game mechanics and learning value is the same as any other FPS.. however the context is friggen awful for a child.
As a fourth year student who is learning to be a Primary School Teacher I have to agree the context wouldn't be suitable.That doesn't mean that the same engine couldn't be used to design a game that was relevant, enjoyable whilst still providing the student with opportunities to learn.

quote:Originally posted by Caroo

Kids are by no accounts stupid and if something comes along as tacky they?ll be the first to know. I personally think for young boys who can learn through videogames. The game has to be a mixture of game play and learning. Most of the edutainment programs out there... get boring quickly. I agree most edutainment programs are fairly basic, not only that, they teach via rote learning which doesn't necessarily mean that students understand the way a particular concept works. What is needed is programs that give students an opportunity to explore the particular concepts that they need to construct and understand.

quote:Originally posted by Caroo

Which is half the reason education currently sucks. Adults say education and learning is its own reward.. but if your a kid and you see no gain to learning.. will you?
Education is changing. It has to what was relevant for a society that required factory fodder isn't useful for a society that is globalised and that is changing quickly due to developments in technology.
One of the things that is important to me as a teacher is to include technology in a way that is relevant to students and helps to engage them with their learning. I am currently doing as an elective computer games and have already completed digital imaging with PS7. Flash is next. I have also been investigating on my own applications for 3dmodelling and using Photoshop for retexturing the models.

What I would like to do with students is to get them creating simple games themselves using programs like gamemaker and flash. For example Grade 5/6 students creating games for the younger grades.

Another idea that may be of use to the original poster is:

Creating a role playing game that helps to teach students about consequences and decisionmaking. Similar to Morrowind by Bethesda the actions of the player have direct consequences on how you get treated by the NPC's.

Puzzle games and RTS games that teach thinking skills would also be of use.

Programs that I consider important in an educational environment are:
(Beside the basics mainly for middle years Grades 5-10)
Photoshop Elements - Can be used to teach digital imaging skills, tesselations etc.
Inspiration - creating mindmaps
3D modelling programs teaching them about basic shapes, nets(uv maps), creativity, problem-solving.
Gamemaker - Can be used across the curriculum in particular literacy as they would have to design the game(create plot, dialogue etc.)

Programs that allow students to create movies and set them up in a professional manner.
I have seen this done on macs using i-movie and i-dvd with grade 3/4 that was really successful.
Brain, there is lot's more that could be done. Multiplayer of some sort would be great would be able to allow students to connect across cluster schools and also with schools overseas.
Hope there is some stuff that is of use.
Pen

I remember playing The Incredible Machine at school, and its a nice learning tool.
A recent, similar product that i was very impressed with was Armadillo Run : www.armadillorun.com
Fun, and like TIM, gets you thinking

Shiva: TIM rocked @:-) I like that Armadillo Run. It's alot like Bridge Builder, another fave of mine.

Pendraia: You'll make a cool teacher, no doubt. Willing to teach the kiddies and let them play games. Winnah! @:-) It's good to see you on a similar wavelength, and I can then decipher any teacher-specific stuff via my partner. "...What's rote learning?"

One thing I discussed, which you raised, was Inspiration. I've fiddled with it, but never really got it's educational usage. It's the kind of program which IMO wouldn't really have a long lifespan. You considering it as a important piece of software intrigues me. What kind of scenarios do/would you use it in? I just don't see mind maps being a vital asset. Perhaps I'm just not teacher enough. @:-)

And also, could you see a way in which the essentials of learning, like math and english, could be made into a game that isn't a bog standard "Hear a word, type it, repeat"? Like my Typing of the Dead example. Or do you think that games are pretty much bound to topics like decision making skills and the sort?

Here's a really cool one (appropriate for your username too Brain) [;)] Creatures 3

The Creatures series have a lengthy wikipedia write up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creatures here's a fragment
quote:
In Creatures, the user 'hatches' small furry creatures called Norns into a world called Albia, and teaches them how to talk, feed themselves, and protect themselves against vicious creatures called Grendels. Later games in the series introduced a third species, the Ettins.
The program was significant as it was one of the first commercial titles to code alife organisms from the genetic level upwards using a sophisticated biochemistry and neural network brains. This meant that the Norns and their DNA could develop and "evolve" in increasingly diverse ways, unpredicted by the makers. By breeding certain Norns with others, some traits could be passed on to following generations. Most interestingly, the Norns turned out to behave similarly to living creatures. This was seen as an important insight into how real world organisms may function and evolve. Earlier alife programs had worked by giving their organisms a limited set of commands and parameters, and seeing whether the way the subjects behaved was realistic.
The genetics in Creatures are somewhat different from human genetics: they are haploid and therefore any "evolution" is a result of random cross-over mutations. There is no concept of dominant gene and recessive gene. Nevertheless, the complexity of the simulated biochemistry meant that Norn behaviour was highly unpredictable.
Among the fans of Creatures were the Oxford zoologist Richard Dawkins and author Douglas Adams.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000747OCQ/026-4907995-4242022 nice and cheap now too. Edit oops, that URL is Creatures Exodus, CReatures 3 is at http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000747OCQ/026-4907995-4242022 and is still nice and cheap.

There are a bunch of free tools for creating your own Norns too like this one at http://www.double.co.nz/creatures/creatures3/
quote:
C3 LobeStudy (Version 1.3 - 70KB - 21/05/2000)
A program for viewing the lobes and neurons within a norn brain. Displays the 8 state values and the input value for each cell in the selected lobe. Data is updated every second or the game can be paused and single stepped to view the brain state at more leisurely pace. This is a work in progress and there is more information I hope to dig up as I understand the brains a bit better. Requires the Functional Developer run time library available below.

Apologies for blowing my own horn but you will likely find the Victorian Space Science Education Centre interesting- they have a custom building with a fake martian surface for simulated "Mission to Mars" school excursions (I gather it's open now), simulated missions to the ISS, and a galactic mapping simulator.

Unfortunately their site is down atm (it's http://vssec.org), but there's an article about it on the European Space Agency's site http://sci.esa.int/science-e/www/object/index.cfm?fobjectid=37894

It's blowing my own horn because I tutor the subject the software gets made in (it is first made as an assignment, then VSSEC provide the top students with a summer scholarship to make it for real) and I worked on the Mission to Mars system (audio coding and version control/bug tracking setup and admin).

Brain,Sorry I took so long to reply I had professional practice for two weeks and when I finished had an assignment for school to complete.
quote:
And also, could you see a way in which the essentials of learning, like math and english, could be made into a game that isn't a bog standard "Hear a word, type it, repeat"? Like my Typing of the Dead example. Or do you think that games are pretty much bound to topics like decision making skills and the sort?

This is rote learning, basically hear and remember but not necessarily understand.
Inspiration is great, I actually like to use it myself when planning essays and is something that is useful with most levels of schooling. Mind-mapping is a really useful skill and thinking tool. It helps students to consider everything they know about a topic and at the same time mimics the way the brain works which helps them to remember. It also is a good way to use DeBono's Thinking Tool 'Consider all Factors' when problem solving. It's also a good planning tool for writing especially as you can convert/copy it to word format.
I'm still learning about DeBono's thinking tools so I hope I explained it well enough.

I think with any educational game/program you have to look at what your trying to achieve.

If your looking at reading skills any game that requires a student to be able to read, builds an enjoyment of reading and helps them to develop critical literacy skills is going to help and be of use. Reading is one of those things that the more you read the better you tend to get. If your a good reader you tend to be able to do better at school overall.Many boys in particular don't engage with reading but do with computer games so games that require reading will help them with their reading skills generally.

In the literacy subject I did last semester the tutors suggested that reading walkthroughs for games was also a good way to get boys engaging with reading.

With maths any games that involve problems solving and logic puzzles could be used. Think of the block puzzles in Zelda Ocarina of Time. You have to work out which block to push to get them to the right spot. There's space and shape as well as problem solving skills just in that one example.

If anyone seriously wants to design education games I would suggest they choose the area and concepts they want to teach and design a game around them. You would also need to consider what year levels you wish to design it for.
The documents found here would be a starting point for anyone interested in knowing what the expectations are for each level:
http://www.sofweb.vic.edu.au/blueprint/fs1/learnings.asp

lorien, the mission to mars sounds really interesting as do the Creatures series. I'll have to check them out.

Cheers

Pen[:)]

I know it's digging up an old thread, but this still holds my interest. I've just come across an article whilst checking a site for teacher use.

Educational Video Games: Coming to a Classroom Near You?
http://www.technewsworld.com/story/56516.htmlBrain2007-04-03 16:41:02

Continuing my interest, I've recently been told about Games In Learning project by the ICT Innovation Centre in Education Queensland. The school I work at has expressed interest in having a presentation done locally, so should it occur I'll definitely get along and check it out.

Looks rather interest, not just for the fact that younger developers are being bred, but that teachers are doing things like "Integrating XBOX into a critical literacy unit". To think I had to do Shakespeare... @;-)

The best ones to look at would be burn.com.au or dvdcrave.com neither of which seem to have the game in. If the game has not yet had an English release, that could be part of the issue. Otherwise I would suggest having a look at some of the UK sites.

the price is fair.

although i would inquire about the motherboard and hard drive. asus also make a few low price 939 boards, also check the hdd for sata or ide.
the cpu isnt the greatest, although it is fine. it will do the job :)
im using a 4400+ atm.

the gfx card is getting kind oldish, but it can power latest games with the very medium framrates.

The main difference between Xp home / Pro is networking type of areas & settings. Unless you are running a small office or somthing similar, id go with the xp pro.

Ram should be ample at 2 gig. Always Easy to upgrade anyways.

Never heard of that dvd burner. sorry.

When buying a new computer don?t plan to upgrade it later. Get a well balanced system that will last. Parts that can be added like hard drives are ok. But parts that get replaced like the cpu, motherboard, graphics card and possibly ram should be only upgraded if replacing all of them together.

well cpu's for both amd and intel are coming out soon.
dx10 gfx cards will probably be launched 1st Quarter next year, simultaneously with windows vista.

i say if you were to buy that system, you could probably get away with the processor power for around 2 years.
you should be able to upgrade the gfx card to a dx10 wen they arrive.

looks like a good deal for the price, the video card wont run the latest games at high detail (if you care about that), but will run max without a problem.

Thanks,everyone for the reply's.
I've decided to buid a pc,although i thought the HP was a fair price i was concerned
about the Mobo and it's upgrade capacaties not to mention the Graphics Card which i think was a poor version of a GF6600.

For the same price i can get a better deal if i build eg:

Asus- A8N SLI Deluxe (max Dual 4800)
AMD 64Dual core 3800
2Gigs Kingston DDR2 ( 4Gigs max)
120G Seagate sata HDD
PioneerDual DVD
XFX GF7600Gt 256 pcie (2 PCIe slots on MB)
Antec case/450w
19"Samsung 940N

$1550

I feel better with this setup,can anyone tell me what they think. Have i made the right decision?

Thanks again,
Sheldyn.

looks good, how much is the video card?

pretty small HDD though, what kind of 3D work will you be doing? with an OS, games, programs and various files on the HDD there might not be much space left for storing renders and video, if that's the sort of 3 you're doing.

I'm new to 3d modelling, but basically i want to learn all aspects of 3dmax,(modelling,rendering,animation) i illustrate alot and i can see myself diving right into it and trying to learn as much as possible.
This machine will only be used for 3dmax (no games at all),just the OS,Nortons AV and anything i need to keep 3dmax running well including drivers etc.I use a mac for eveything else so im trying to keep this PC minimal,like to also include MotioBuilder and Zbrush but i think i'm stretching my learning curve a bit.
I agree the HDD is on the small side,first thought was 200G but budget sort of kept it smaller.Thought about a 10,000rpm Rapter74gig just for OS and 3dmax and saving to an external Drive but just a thought?
The 7600Gt is $291 at MSY here in Melbourne. Is the 7600Gt a better option than the 6800GT ultra? also is the HDD Rapter10,000 is worth considering.

Just wondering about NEC Lcd's are they good? saw one the other day(Accusync 92V 19").
any recommedations,or just stay with the Samsung?

many thank's

Sheldyn.

i have a 74gb 10000rpm raptor, mainly because i was tired of waiting hours for games to load. it also boots up windows pretty quick (or it did untli i plugged in my old ATA drive, now it takes longer than it ever has for some reason).

but you'll have no need for one for a 3d only system. It wont affect max in any way, a raptor drive is a bloody expensive piece of hardware for only loading windows quicker! only consider a raptor for games.

yeh that rig setup, looks fine.
Id seriously think about saving a bit more money and purchasing the 4400+ x2. it has a bit more oomph and double the cache.

a little offtopic , i was workin at MSY in auburn last year for a few months. busy place [:I]

Busy for sure, the line was nearly out the door.

Would anyone consider a Quadro 540 over a GF7600gt etc.
Only because i can buy one at good price.Just thinking if i'm only doing 3D work
and no games would it be the better way to go? They say their very stable and the better choice for 3d artists.

Thank's.

Sheldyn.

Quadros are typically less supported by games than the GeForce series.

unless you're using 3dsmax/acad/renderman exclusively, go for the mass market card.

as far as I've seen over the last 3 or so years, handheld has been the only reliable stepping-stone platform to launch a team-come-developer business. Blood, sweat, tears, determination, risk, and pouring your entire soul into your work... unfortunately that doesn't fly anymore, now only large capital and the incredibly slow hard slog of building a company from the ground up is the only way to get anywhere near the "big time" mainstream development status.

That's rather bleak. So then what are you to do? Be a bitch to the bigger companies forever more and heel to everyone else?s desires?

I'm willing to accept that for maybe the first decade of my career. But for its entirety? I will not so easily succumb to corporate snaking. I will eventually design and make my own studios game.

Wether the industry gets tighter and bitchier. Fine, we'll have to get bitchier back. And remember, when empires fall it's those who seize and lead that pick up the pieces.

well all you have to do is kill people who talk like warren spector.
not a big deal.

hehe if only it was that simple [:)]

it's definitely harsh, but he's also being a realist... it's not that you can't get to where you want to be -- it's just that there's no magic ticket through hard work, perserverance and talent anymore. You need all those elements, plus a huge investor relationship for capital, and about 20 other like-minded and able people. And that's to even start thinking about approaching that level of development.

The point I was making before is that it's not that you can't get there - it's just that you have to build up to it like everyone else; there's no longer a clear transition from small developer/team to independant studio. It's now a case of building up a company from ground level all the way through, no easy A-B. And to build a company that is able to produce at that level is definitely going to take you more than a decade of hardship.

Here's a point -- These large companies with the ability to develop the games they want (to a certain degree) sustain themselves on those games. They are established companies with large revenue and audiences and aren't going to disappear anytime soon - what small to mid level developers are solely developing games to sustain their company? There's very few any more, not only in Australia but globally. Companies are selling middleware, or doing outsourcing, or blindly developing someone elses license just to survive and try to get to the point they can do independant development. Solely developing games at that level is hard to make ends meet - The ones that are doing alternate revenue... these are the successfull companies in their bid for their climb to the top to become sustainable in the current market.

Personally, I totally agree with Spector. Your chance of sucess as a startup is zero, of course measuring 'sucess' as having your game completed and on the shelves and actually making your team enough to keep you and your team continually developing and surviving, not to mention growing in order and in hope of working toward that project your just busting to work on one day.

Unless you have some already rich parents or know of some investors that are willing to throw a bunch of money at you, caroo your statement of being everyone or someones bitch is pretty much right on the head. And JI's comment of having alternate revenue is simply the truth of it, theres no escape.

Recently at Game Connection in France, I know of 3 teams who met with 22 large to smaller sized publishers, now these guys, even though they:

1) Had poored there souls into this work some for even 6 - 12 months (full-time) not part time. yes they burnt through saved money and all the secret stashes to have a crack.
2) Had a playable demo right there to show off.
3) Had full and thorough documentation / plans / budgets & schedules.

Were each and every time faced with the first question of "Have you guys completed any other titles working together ?.... no ? Any game experience at all, credits working on other games ?..... Mod experience only ? ....Well unless a team with your history has pretty much a completed game we just wont take the risk, goodbye"

The best of them consisted of a smaller group of guys a couple had credits on FPS as artists and programmers, so they actually had experience, a playable demo and all the documentation and the best they could muster was a "We would like to see how far you guys are along in 6 - 12 months time with the game - if its still going and around half complete we might be able to look at it a bit more"

IE they will string you out until you cant possibly go a day more without food and water and then offer you a measly sum for your hard work, Because your new and have no experience, most likely they will *only* be willing to strike a deal that completely muscles you out of the equation and getting the smallest piece of the pie, and as a team your left with a situation something in akin to:

"Well hey guys, 5 of us have spent 24 months working fulltime on this game its almost complete ( 40k average wage x 5 x 2 years = $400,000 + $50,000 willynilly expenses to keep the team alive ) we have an offer for $120,000 + 12% royalties its the best offer weve had, we have zero savings left and we cant continue if we dont take this."

And thats pretty much the truth of it, even for a company that has titles under its belt, its a bloodbowl and they would face identicle situation aside from their figures looking a little bit more healthier in terms of actual postive income or breaking even.

So anyone, and I may sound like an asshole for sayign so, thinking of making an FPS or an RPG, or 'the next best thing' and you have goals to release on pc or console - Your pissing into a Cat 5 hurricane, and your chances of sucess are like Warren mentioned 'absolutely nil'.

The Alternatives are IMO:

1) Take the 'who gives a shit about huge AAA quality and budget titles, lets make some small casual games and release those to handhelds' path and forge a solid reputation in that area and use that weight and experience to work your way into the bigger scene 'Epic Pinball' anyone ? now look at them !

2) Grab yourself a construction kit like elder scrolls, or UT2004 (Soon UT2k7), Doom3 and start making 'useful' mods and additions to games and get yourself and your name right out there and into the face of the actual developers in *hope* of working your way up through those ranks and actually being paid to complete mods.

3) Start working on designing middleware, perhaps a set of tools for mobile phone development, a full development environment etc etc.

Either way the best piece of advice I can offer any startup, is to be smart about your approach, and target something that will be a good base for the building of revenue, and that is tailored to suit your team and situation. IE dont set out to make the Unreal 4 Engine if your team consists of 2 or 3 mates who dabble part time.

Once you have revenue (which whether you like it or not is the key to sustaining yourselfs for the long term), you can then start moving toward doing what you actually want to do.

Making games is a 'long term investment' speaking for myself and the rest of the team, in the past 2 - 3 years now, we have experienced many emotions, ranging from orgasmic joy to utter ruin, and personally I have spent some nights wondering to myself 'seriously, why the hell am i doing this?' your persistance and sheer determination plus your will to survive will be tested and you will be pushed beyond all of your limits, and probably goto lengths you never though you would, to 'make games'

SO be prepared for a bumpy ride, but enjoy!

Thats my 2 Cents!

Happy Gaming [:)]

??Publishers?? are saying they won??t sign anything until they see a working prototype,??

hehe, of course. Developers should connect to the publishers with an almost completed demo.
And the most important factor is whether the game is attractive.
I believe when the publisher was deeply attracted by the game, they can sign anything.

quote:'Epic Pinball' anyone ? now look at them !

modest roots and continuing alternate revenue or cash-cow license development is unfortunately not limited to smaller developers - that threshold continues up the change right through mid range as well. I'm guessing Dice going from "Battlefield" to "Barbie Groovy Games" wasn't exactly a labour of love.

Idle musing:
We're all familiar with 'AAA games' and could easily count off a handful of examples. But what of 'AA games' and 'A games'? While the latter terms aren't exactly in common use, what would differentiate a AAA game from a AA game?

It's pretty ambitious for any startup/small team jumping head first into the foray of next-gen console / PC development but there have been a small handful that have, like Ninja Theory and Project Offset. There've been some really exciting things coming from smaller games on the PSP, Nintendo DS, Wii, with stylized and asset-unheavy games (Loco Roco, Project Rub, Brain Age, Nintendogs etc), so I still think there's opportunity for startups and small teams to still hit it big. Just have to be creative and innovative!

There are ways to get some experience though, for a start up to get a game distributed

You dont have to go through a major publisher

There's always alternatives like Greg Costikyan's Manifesto Games, a serves he hope will provide an outlet for low budget and/or self funded titles over an online serves.

And all three next gen consoles will, or do, offer a download serves of some kind. Microsoft and Nintendo seem the most open to actually publishing games through this. Microsoft with it's Live serves for arcades and casual games, and Nintendo has said it will look at it's online serves as a way to sell titles that might not sell very well off the shelf, such as Electroplankton. I look forward to what support they will give smaller companies (not much i'm guessing) who want to distribute their self/alternatively funded titles through their online services. Xbox being ideal for casual games, and the Wii for more traditional titles (apparently the dev kits only cost about US$2000). Of course this isn't going to happen unless these giants actually offer their services to companies as an distribution alternative, and then start-ups have to somehow meet the the quality assurance standards of the companies, but there is hope in there somewhere.

And if Microsoft and Nintendo do, and it's successful, expect Sony to follow soon after (and then talk it up like it was all their idea).

heh, it's really so sensationalist that it actually doesn't bug me. Reminds me more of the whole "your child is a satanic worshipper for listening to KISS! Knights in service of satan!" So a critic is wanting to bite at nintendo for giving someone that criticized games for their lack of mental stimulation the opportunity to make a game that increases brain activity? and then use that as a point of "corruption"? That's just pathetic.
I like the use of the picture of the new onimusha game with the tag "Incorruptible ? Japanese video games companies seduce their critics". Besides making absolutely no sense in context of the article, it shows how little journalistic investigation has gone into the piece. It's laughable at best.

I think the whole issue is a hypocritical sensationalist piece of crap anyway. I've seen real life people decapitated, tortured, burnt alive, mutilated, fall to their death, and gunned down in papers and "news" stories yet I never see a single "journalistic report" on that, or any research reported on about it.

quote:Originally posted by funkyj

Australian Journalism has outshone itself by publishing one of the WORST stroies on gaming to date.

This biased, skewed piece of sensationalist crap was published in the Sydney Morning Herald.

They equate the Video Games industry to the Tobacco industry, and say that brains will damage your brain.

It is an example of the WORST journalism in this country.

Actually they quote some guy who reckons that the games industry uses similar tactics to the tobacco industry (so its neither equating the two nor even endorsing that view) and another guy who said that his research found that when people play games they have reduced activity in part of their brain (while they play, he never claimed it resulted in "brain damage"), and then he decided he needed to do more research and was critised for changing his mind because Nintendo gave him money.

All a bit silly, but get a grip, just about everything you see on MediaWatch is sillier.. Biased, sure, but not especially sensational, not compared to, oh, every single episode of ACA or Today Tonight...

pb

I put a piece up on my SMH blog [url]http://blogs.smh.com.au/screenplay/archives/view_from_the_hill/004558.h…] about this, would love to have you add your comments so the editor of the paper can read what a ridiculous piece it was.

Cheers,

Jason

It would take hours for me to respond to every piece of ill-informed illogical bollocks in that article. I just don't have the time.

It is pure trash ... I struggle to find one solid objective argument in the entire piece. That 'journalist' (if you could call her that) should be banished from holding a pen/pencil/keyboard.

I read about this article first over at [url="http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/australia/video-games-rot-yer-brain-says-a…"]Kotaku[/url], who seem to be pretty much amused over it.

Such an unbalanced article which seems hell bent on trashing the games industry. The aforementioned tobacco / game industry comparisons, some sort of movement by the games industry to attack research linking games to violence whilst buddying up with influential figures, and the GTA remark by lawyer nutjob, Jack Thompson, are just icing on the cake.

C'mon, if you want to quote a credible professional, you shouldn't be looking to [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Thompson_(attorney)"]a dead-beat lawyer[/url] who's been investigated by the practise in his own state, [url="http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3310"]renegs on his challenge[/url] to game developers, [url="http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=12259"]blasted by pro family groups[/url] and being [url="http://www.wired.com/news/games/0,2101,69404,00.html"]a total moron in general[/url]. Heck, I'm sure he was booted from that GTA case which the comment in that article was likely about.

Anyway, it just doesn't seem to be worth a rational argument over any of the points in there. It's like when Jack Thompson makes yet another news headline - you realise that people can be just as passionate against games and they're going to keep making these kind of outlandish claims to push whatever agenda they have. And occasionaly some journalist will lump it all together to make one big steaming pile of poop, just like the one we're talking about.

Unfortunately guys, if you don't take the time to write a letter to the editor or a quick post on my blog, the editor of the paper will never know that the article was ignorant rubbish. It was written by the paper's Tokyo correspondent, and she should have done a lot more research or put it on the opinion pages, not dress it up like it was fact.

Man if computer games were really that bad for you, then i might've been the next Einstein had I never gone near those horrible things. If only I had got into party drugs and eckies as a 10 year old instead of those cursed interactive entertainment media.

The video game mascots tell me to burn things.... BURN IT ALL!!!!!!

Now you guys are getting as ridiculous as the article. Why shouldn't they quote Jack Thompson? He's a prominent figure in the anti-game movement and he's the lawyer representing someone trying to stay out of prison by attempting to argue some of the stuff in the article in court. Seems to me like the only reason you don't want to see him quoted is because you don't like what he's saying.

And I'm really unsure why people take offense at the suggestion that the games industry attacks "research" linking games to violence? Do biologists get offended when someone points out that they attack creationist "science"? No, they say "right on, that's exactly what we do, donate some money and we'll attack them some more"...

pb

There's a massive difference between taking a quote from some 'professional' (which occurs in the article) and then paraphrase the statement later in the article presenting it as if it were fact (which also occurs in the article). This is why it's always frustrating to see Mr Thompson quoted because it is a warning sign that the writer of the article has gone out looking for a quote that displays a particular viewpoint - rather than looking at a topic objectively and getting a balanced well argued perspective.

In my opinion, Jack Thompson is only trying to make money out of the debate, and I feel sorry for the people who he defends and those who he represents because he's just feeding them crap that they want to hear and then profiting from their ignorance of both the legal system, and the actual academic reality of the 'effects' of computer games on the individual.

quote:Originally posted by pb

Now you guys are getting as ridiculous as the article. Why shouldn't they quote Jack Thompson? He's a prominent figure in the anti-game movement and he's the lawyer representing someone trying to stay out of prison by attempting to argue some of the stuff in the article in court. Seems to me like the only reason you don't want to see him quoted is because you don't like what he's saying.

I just gave a list of why he doesn't deserve any credibility, and yeh, I don't like what he's saying, but that's mainly due to him putting his bandwagon-hopping sensationalised spin on it or just being plain incorrect. I think that's why he's such a prominent figure in the anti-game movement. I have no problem with Jack being quoted, but I think to quote Jack is just scraping the absolute bottom of the barrel.

quote:And I'm really unsure why people take offense at the suggestion that the games industry attacks "research" linking games to violence? Do biologists get offended when someone points out that they attack creationist "science"? No, they say "right on, that's exactly what we do, donate some money and we'll attack them some more"...

pb

I don't think anyone took offense to that? But the suggestion that there's some industry wide conspiracy akin to a Tobacco coverup seems a bit of hog-wash.

But he's not quoted as some objective professional who's credibility is played up, he's described as "the victims' lawyer" (ie he's an interested party, he's going to give you his biased opinion and you've been told). It doesn't matter whether you like what he's saying.

On a side note, there's an interesting aspect to this idea of the victim's families suing some 3rd party they decided to blame. When some nut bar went on a killing spree aftering being "inspired" by Oliver Stone's Natural Born Killers the victim's families sued him. He won, but it leads to an interesting question: if he had lost that would mean that he's at least partially responsible for the murders? If thats true, then the real murderers, who are sitting in prison, now have grounds for legal action against him (not to mention appeals etc), since afterall it would follow that their prison problems are a result of his movie. Its only a matter of time before the actual murderers start suing... It would also put the "moral outrage" crowd in a dilemma - on the one hand they argue for personal responsiblity and not "blaming society", "being abused as a child" etc, on the other they're now going to have to defend something they seem to hate so much...

pb

To argure that from another side, in regards to Jack Thompson. This article is written in May 2006, and that quote is from a case from 2005 which he was forcibly removed from (with his right to practice in that state taken away) for violating his gag order, threatening other attorneys, and acting in a completely immoral and unethical way. With this knowledge, and presenting it in a "the victims lawyer" manner, is that really a good source for an opinion to write a fair article? Hell no - it's harvesting the most negative and sensationalist message you can, even if it's from a person ejected from the case you're giving them credit for. That is simply bad journalism thinly masking vested interest in the most sensationalist article that someone can write - at this point I'm not even talking about the game issue. This article is just bad - research you can pull up within an hour on the web, no footwork in finding out anything or talking to anyone, writing a whole heap of things in a factual way that are questionable at best, and getting things simply wrong multiple times over. To me this just seems like a rush job to satisfy an editor/deadline and try to get a bit o' cash.

quote:Originally posted by J.I. Styles

To me this just seems like a rush job to satisfy an editor/deadline and try to get a bit o' cash.

Exactly, the way people carry on sometimes you'd think there's some deliberate consipiracy to "get us" when in fact its so much more mundane.

pb

prepare for MONSTAH POST!!!!

The reason that some people (and not really me in particular, I hope) 'carry on' is because if we don't make a fuss when a poorly researched viewpoint is perpetuated in the community then we might find ourselves even MORE restricted in what we can make and get classified in Australia than we already are. Especially considering that for alot of non-gamers the only source of information about the effects of computer games, that they would consider 'independent', is in the newspaper, and furthermore they are likely to assume any positive message purported by a gaming magazine is probably going to be skewed in favour of a pro-gaming agenda. We are screwed if we don't get positive messages about games in a so-called 'independent' agenda-less popular information medium and it is in our best interest to objectively criticise any poorly researched and - even worse - totally incorrect message.

Sure - it doesn't make us look good to criticise the profession of journalism (but they certainly make it easy sometimes) so that's why i'd stress that any criticism should be 'objective' as well as justified. By 'justified' of course i mean that instead of criticising the journalist themselves we should be criticising their work and finding ways to ensure they have the right information at-hand (rather than forcing them to do a 30minute google search for 'anti-gaming propaganda') from that point onwards.

So not only should we be ensuring that we restrain ourselves and only criticise objectively and justifiably, but we should also seek to use those information media as best as we can and constantly give them updates and more accurate information about gaming and any effect is has on modern life. i.e. make sure new research and texts published by academics that you think they might like to reference is known to them, and that any press releases are forwarded on to them rather than just letting them sit in the domain of 'pro-gaming' media (such as gaming websites, gaming magazines etc).

Woah, what an absolute hatchet job.

As she states the Japanese market is one of the largest in the world and yet the Japanese have some of the lowest rates of violence in the developed world, not to mention the fact that Ms Cameron conveniently ignores, that while video game sales increase in countries such as Australia and the US, youth violence is on the decrease.

Trash journalism

-grant

There is also the beautiful point that parents are blaming us, the game makers, for the cause of violence in their kids and yet they let them sit in front of their 300 inch TVs filling their faces with chemicals disguised as "food", playing video games and watching TV for hours and hours each day without a single rational thought that they are the ones that should control what their little darlings are doing. Can you say "nanny state" people? Take some responsibility for your kids for god sake. I accept that if you spend your entire waking life playing violent video games then your perception of the world will becomes seriously bent, but the same can be said of someone that spends their entire waking life watching horror/slasher movies or gangster films, (or even the news, which of course has a propensity towards war, death and destruction...). Saying agressive video games cause violent behaviour is like saying junk food will kill you. Well, yes of course it will, but only if you eat it everyday at more or less every meal.

I think you should be able to sum this up in a pretty easy way:
- if it's only for personal use, it really doesn't matter; use whatever you're comfortable with
- if you're learning these tools and you wish to work in the game/film/cg industries, use a pc platform.

Development is near 100% pc based; you'll find a very limited few roles have mac based parts to them and generally only in larger studios (roles like audio design), but that's usually still only in part. Mac is an absolute minority in development, the only other time you'll see them is if a product is being ported to the mac platform, and then it's only a one or two man programming job. In regards to this changing in the future with the new intel chipset, since it's an existing infrastructure, I don't see this changing any time soon.

I wasn't aware just how much PCs where used in the industry,
thanks J.I.

It's time to build a PC.

Seems to me that Apple's move to Intel hardware and their subsequent release of the Boot Camp software (allows dual-booting to XP/OSX) is actually going to have quite a deterimental effect when it comes to game availability for OSX.

I've been writing commercial cross platform C++ for over 12 years now - and used to develop for MacOS 6/7/8 - and I've thrown out my plans for doing OSX versions of the games I'm working on due to the comparative ease with which gamers on Mac Intel hardware can run my games now. Seems like there's a problem with Apple's strategy when independent developers like myself see OSX support as being even less attractive than it was before.

quote:Originally posted by CombatWombat

Seems to me that Apple's move to Intel hardware and their subsequent release of the Boot Camp software (allows dual-booting to XP/OSX) is actually going to have quite a deterimental effect when it comes to game availability for OSX.

It'll encourage the idea that windows is only good for games though [;)]

But point taken and I think it is another downer for OpenGL game dev- though at least the PS3 uses the embedded version of GL

quote:Originally posted by yeap

Does anyone know what kind of work the publishers do locally? Would any of them have their own QA departments?

I don't think any of the publishers listed do any QA locally.

More than likely local activities at these companies are restricted to marketing, sales, and distribution.

If you want to work within a QA department for a publisher, the closest you'll get in Australia is at one of the development studios owned by THQ or Atari (are there any others?). However, this will be limited to testing products which are in development locally rather than testing a variety of products from a range of developers.

From Gamasutra:

"According to independent reports received by Gamasutra, Rockstar has unexpectedly closed its Rockstar Vienna development office (particularly known for its Grand Theft Auto Xbox conversion) under cover of E3, laying off more than 100 employees, in a major blow to development in Austria, where the company was the biggest developer.

In addition, further confirmation has come in the form of a weblog post by Rockstar Vienna employee Jurie Horneman: "This morning, as I came into work, I was greeted by security guards. It turned out Take-Two has closed their Rockstar Vienna office, effective immediately, "due to the challenging environment facing the video game business and our Company during this platform transition"."

This closure follows the shuttering of 2K's Indie Built Studio in Salt Lake City, and shows that Take-Two is suffering significantly through the hardware transition - or, at least, has taken the opportunity to change its internal development strategy, leading to the closure of these studios."

So Take Two closd them down, to only just announced that they were [url="http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=9244"]opening up a studio[/url] in Shanghai. o_O

Heh. Anyone think a factor might have been the many lawsuit payouts they've had to cop for making half the games they make?

Just a thought. It's not worth closing the doors to 100 people. Many American based entertainment companies have sold off or shut down their overseas limbs. [Or worse, sold them off and replant them in cheep shop areas like china]

Not sure though. I'm just rambling. [Looks up and reads the last sentence of souris 2nd post.]

Damm...well. I always knew take-two had a taste for evil games...but their also evil business man?...good going take two. Turn into another EA games.

With the way Take Two is going lately, I'm a little concerned for the welfare of Irrational. Fingers crossed...

Irrational should be alright, Bioshock looks amazing!

Here is a new one, it just keeps on going...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12597970

quote:The two men were drinking heavily during a barbecue when they got into an argument about whether music should be played on Priestly's PlayStation.

So why does the PlayStation get the blame rather than the alcohol?

This doesn't just apply to games and consoles but just about anything a dodgy news outlet can get their hands on. The basic formula which they seem to use again and again is

Ignorance + fear + something the viewer can relate to = rating

In this case they target the ignorant portion of the population, the 30+ age group (parents) who have little experience with games. The fear is that games are being used to train ?Islamic militants? & parents can relate to the story in that their children & their friends will be exposed to these games.

The same soft of ploy is used in ?breaking news? like
#New research indicates your carpet could be killing you
# Fatal real-estate traps exposed!
# Chicken bacteria increase

As long as there is ignorance we will have fear, as long as we have fear people will be interested.[:X]

quote:So why does the PlayStation get the blame rather than the alcohol?

Mick1460: I don't think it's really being blamed in the article, more that's it's being used as hook to reel more readers in. They could have used game console or cd player instead of play station, but then we wouldn't have pay any attention would we[;)]

oh man i thought we were in more a of a drought of these kinda stories recently. Seems there allways around to make my blood boil. The fun fact about all these "video games exposing kids to violence, violence bad! make children bad blaaaaargh!" news reports is that i think ive been exposed to much more war, "terrorism", violence and graphic imagery on the news then i ever have elsewhere. And thats imagery from the real world there (theres more things everyone could add to that list im sure). But hey, try pitching that report.

On a bit of a side note, as ridiculous as a lot of this reporting is, I still find myself more iritated by the persecution complex in this industry.

We're a multi-billion dollar industry run my a university educated elite that receives millions in subsidies from government and has mega-corp publishers and distributers as clients. Yet so often I see people behaving as if we're some tiny misunderstood minority being persecuted by the Man.

We're not the only industry that gets written about in silly media reports. If you were in, say, the building industry, you'd be putting up with sensational nonsense about "sick building syndrome", legionnaires disease and more.

pb

No matter where you go, what you do or who you are. Someone will always whinge about something. Both valid and invalid reasons apply. Because we are tribal creatures who seek to fit into groups and we all xenophobic against the "tribes" who we fail to understand.

10,000-year-old survival instant. You're not gonna shake it easily.

Given the American and Australian military using games as recruiting tools, the in many ways fundamentalist Christian attitudes of our governments, and the way those same governments seem to enjoy behaving like terrorists themselves I personally have no problems with fundamentalist Muslims using games a recruiting tools themselves.

If people don't like it maybe our own recruiting games should be banned [;)]

I for one say "good on you" to the (non-Islamic millitant) creators of the mod. The Australian IT article end with

quote:
SAIC executive Eric Michael said researchers suspected Islamic militants were using video games to train recruits and condition youth to attack US-led coalition forces in Iraq.

Isn't America's Army just a little similar?

PB: If builders out there have forums I bet they start complaining like we do when they get targeted, right?

I don't feel that being offended by the constant attacks on our industry is something to be shy about and I don't appreciate being told we should just put up and shut up.

Especially since it seems for some reason you equate this industry with some form of lower worth just because it was built by the blood, sweat and tears of intelligent, university trained, hardworking people and god forbid, it makes a lot of money.

No one here has ever said we are the only industry that cops it but we can only relate to what we know....
...so, we feel our industry is unfairly attacked, we vent...as do many other industries, is that unusual?

People are free to air there concerns and I personally like that people are passionate enough to do just that.

Viva la freedom of speech.

Just a thought, I hear China's nice this time of year.

quote:Originally posted by Malus

PB: If builders out there have forums I bet they start complaining like we do when they get targeted, right?

I don't feel that being offended by the constant attacks on our industry is something to be shy about and I don't appreciate being told we should just put up and shut up.

Especially since it seems for some reason you equate this industry with some form of lower worth just because it was built by the blood, sweat and tears of intelligent, university trained, hardworking people and god forbid, it makes a lot of money.

No one here has ever said we are the only industry that cops it but we can only relate to what we know....
...so, we feel our industry is unfairly attacked, we vent...as do many other industries, is that unusual?

People are free to air there concerns and I personally like that people are passionate enough to do just that.

Viva la freedom of speech.

Just a thought, I hear China's nice this time of year.

Oh yeah, the builders blow it up out of proportion too, and there's nothing special about either group.

I never said you have to put up or shut up, I don't know how you read the "lower worth" stuff into my post, I just reckon that we, like the builders and probably everyone else have an inflated sense of persecution.

And its interesting that you bring up China, you might want to consider the citizens of that country the next time you feel that we're getting the short end of the stick.

pb

I like fortune cookies their great yay china now every one have one and smile.

Just a thought how often in the media particularly crime shows do they portray games of the cause of kids kill others I know I saw one just this week on channel 9 on of those C.S.I shows and before that not to long ago on channel 10 SVU its everywhere because people find it entertaining.

We are not going to get rid of it and I can only see it getting worse as the realism of game graphics increases and while game like manhunt are out there on the general market.

Don?t get me wrong I don't want to see games banned but we really need the office of film and literature classification to wake up and create an R+18 classifications for game.

Anyone got the stats on the average age of gamers these days I think its some thing like the mid 20s most gamers are adults governments need to recognize this.

Not really any difference where you get your domain from, although depending on how many you plan on getting, it might depend on the kind of backend management system they have setup.

I register domains and run hosting for alot of clients, and price wise it's so cheap these days. You can get .com domain names for about AU$10 / year min, and .com.au for about AU$40 / 2 years. Hosting varies, whoever you go with try to make sure they have a good offsite or at least daily backup system.

Anything else you want to know, hit me up on email if you want.

thanks for the info.

I pay about $140 for 2 years of com.au domain registeration, and I know it's extremely very overpriced. I'm with MelbourneIT, and I'll definately be changing registrars when the next bill is due.

As for hosting, it's been years since I looked into what webhosts are charging, but from my time spent searching for a new suitable webhost back then, the prices/services/options you get from US webhosts are damn incredible.

I've used http://www.godaddy.com and http://www.gandi.net to register .com domains, have had no hassles with either.

In terms of places for hosting, http://www.dreamhost.com has an excellent setup for the price (US$10/mo I think it was or something around that) - Linux hosting with ssh shell access + gcc, Subversion, Bugzilla, backups kept for each of the last two hours, two days and two weeks.

I've no affiliation with these three places other than being satisfied with their products & services :)

Cheers,

Mark

howdy,

im a southsider, we dont reall accosiate with the northeners. we got better pubs down here :)

Northside is alot more family friendly than southside though :)

I grew up on the northside, and the general rule of thumb is the more 'green' you see (as in the more trees, etc), the more family the suburb.

Places such as Everton Park, Albany Creek, Bridgeman Downs, Newmarket, Ascot, Northgate (stay away from Nundah though), plus suburbs further out are pretty good too, Samford, Banyo, etc.

Im with yug on that one - Ascott is a nice place (lived there for 3 - 4 odd years) if you get a place close to racecourse road youll have access to publice transport really close, daycare centre / schools are just around the corner and on racecourse road you can find pretty much every bank and a woolworths / bakeries / restaurants and cafes.

What can I say!

It really depends on how much you are looking to pay for a house/rental.

I rent in Paddington, a fun and pretty hip city suburb but unfortunately quite expensive.
Its a bit more like something you'd find in Melbourne than what most of Brisvegas offers and its still kiddy friendly, lots of middle to upper income families are moving here lately.

As for southside as long as you steer clear of Logan, especially Springwood you should be fine.
I had the unfortunate horror of growing up there so I'm allowed to say its bad, on a good note I can hotwire your car if you lose your keys lol. [:P]

Thanks for the response guys, it's much appreciated and has helped heaps. Though I guess the next step is to find myself a job.

Yeah avoid southside man (sorry boat) its all flat, there just aren't any trees, and for some reason its always 10 degrees hotter there. Look arounf Paddington, Milton, and Auchenflower, thats where I was living and they're great places.

ahhhh Brisbane... how I miss thy smiling ladies in their light swishy skirts... sniff

Poor Jacky's had his arse frozen in Melbourne lately...

Don't worry, it gets hot in summer, and without the humidity of up north.

quote:Originally posted by Malus
I had the unfortunate horror of growing up there so I'm allowed to say its bad, on a good note I can hotwire your car if you lose your keys lol. [:P]

Hahahaha, I live in Fortitude Valley, so I can hotwire your car AND sell you drugs :)

I've lived in Paddington, Milton, Rosalie, Auchenflower, Toowong, Indooropilly, Albany Creek, Aspley, Hamilton, Everton Park, Nundah, Northgate, Toombul Samford, The City, Fortitude Valley.

But I've never lived on the Southside ... too scary :P

quote:Originally posted by Malus

As for southside as long as you steer clear of Logan, especially Springwood you should be fine.
I had the unfortunate horror of growing up there so I'm allowed to say its bad, on a good note I can hotwire your car if you lose your keys lol. [:P]

Hmm... just jump across the highway to woodridge and its even worse :P

I am on the southside, however I am on acerage on the logan river out towards Redland Bay. Technically I'm still in Logan, but if you walk 500m down the road you are in Redland Bay, so I consider myself exempt from the Logan Bogan status! [:)]

I find the Northside extremely confusing to navigate if I'm over there.. its all a bunch of main roads going in lord knows what direction, its a crazy mess!

Im with Major Clod on this one..

ive lived both sides

Southside is where it is at..

Its actually way more relaxed in my opinion than the north side.. at least in terms of traffic.

try suburbs like bulimba, manly, wynnum, even out as far as cleveland.. (where i am kinda from originally)

although one of my friends does have the wynumm post code tattoed on his nuckles... :) . enough said

as long as you stay coastal in my opinion... your sweet

SOUTHSIDERS SCREW THEIR COUSINS!!

yes .. but never on the first date

quote:Originally posted by Major Clod

[quote]
I find the Northside extremely confusing to navigate if I'm over there.. its all a bunch of main roads going in lord knows what direction, its a crazy mess!

Tell me about it! ...Brisbane is by far the most difficult city in Australia to navigate.

Yeah I agree with that actually, I've been lost a few times around my own neighbourhood, but once that's sorted I do prefer the hills and the winding roads to the efficient straight grid system where everything looks the same, its a better walk/drive, and its closer to the city, no river's to cross so meh.

If you have Kiddies stay away from Geebung and Zillmere not the nicest of "HOODS"

quote:Originally posted by tojo


try suburbs like bulimba, manly, wynnum, even out as far as cleveland.. (where i am kinda from originally)

although one of my friends does have the wynumm post code tattoed on his nuckles... :) . enough said

yeh i lived around those areas for a few years too.
in Thorneside. Where did you live?

Spring hill! 15mins walk to the CBD wooo

*jealous*

AJ from AustralianGamer.com got a chance to do an exclusive interview with Gus and Jason of Red vs Blue fame at the ACMI event actually, you can read it here, it's pretty funny I recon :)

http://www.australiangamer.com/feature/105/red_vs_blue_interview.html

heh we both interviewed the same pair, thats interesting. i suppose other like burnie and matt were doing the "big time" interviews. I'll post a link once ours is online

Hmm wish I'd been able to make it this time... Got to spend my time recovering from some hefty dental surgery instead [:(]

If people missed this it's likely to happen again: Helen (boss of the acmi games lab) is a machinima fan and there is some friendship between selectparks people and red vs/blue people.

It says next to the box where you register with your email address:

"** NO FREE WEB-BASED EMAIL ACCOUNT (e.g Hotmail, Yahoo, Gmail etc). Your email address will remain confidential. Visitors can send you mail, although they won't know your email address unless you reply to them.
You will not receive an account or email notification if you enter a free web based email account!"

So register again with a proper email address and I will enter you in!

Ok, thanks!

Hello, welcome to the site!

If you haven't already, register for a Sumea profile at http://www.sumea.com.au/sregister.asp?register=member (make sure you enter a legit email address from your isp, and not from hotmail, yahoo etc)

Things seem pretty quite here lately, not much news in the build up to E3, I'm sorta preoccupied with finishing off a site desgin, but please wipe your feet, take a seat, and don't mind the mess!

Ahh yes, just to clarify, parka is my younger (and much more talented) sister. She is going to be studying and QANTM and is looking to get into the game industry, so I suggested she should look at Sumea.com.au and if she has any legitimate questions, the people on the boards here would definately be able to give her good advice.

Best of luck. Keep your dreams alive. I remember thinking the same things way back when I was in school and eventually I got my foot in the door. Now I've been in games for 8 years and I'll never look back if possible.

Good luck.

Hey, thanks for your comment.
8 years! That's awesome.. How did you start yourself off in games? I'm really interested to know how you really do get your foot in the door. Any advice?
Thanks again, cya!
-Parka

I got started, like many, by playing heaps of games, then learning to program because I thought I might like to create experiences like this too.

I got a Computer Science degree at university then started biz programming which I did for 7 years. During that time I was still coding games and graphics stuff at night and eventually I thought I would submit my examples and a resume to a game company.

It ended up they acccepted my application and I never looked back from there.

I interview alot of programmers still today and I think nearly 95% of them don't seem to prepare very well at all. Rarely do you find someone that has really thought about the role they are applying for in any detail.

As you are an artist then I would say you need to prepare a great reel and think of some ways to really impress people with your work. Make sure you have a website setup that you can refer people to as well. I'm not that familiar with artist interviews having never attended one myself but I know that the people with strong portfolios and focused experience are the successful candidates.

Good luck.

hey there, thought I say hello as I have sort of recently joined the industry. 2d artist though, I think the most important thing is to have patience and work HARD! :) always works the best and you'll be doing what you dream in no time. cheers, Min

Hi Min,

How are you feeling today? ;-)

hello Adam,
:) well "not bad"! and yourself? I guess I could just lean over the desk and ask you personally. hehe.

You errrrrr missing a link there Mick?

www.linkedin.com maybe?

Really great tool for anyone in the industry. Joined up a few weeks ago.

Damn you for not letting me know earlier!

Damn. Missed out. Wasn't at home to get the message earlier : /

Might have to arrange an IGDA meet or something soon :D

Damn. I live in south australia!