General Chat

oooooh shiny ;)
a removable hard drive? thats what i like to see! :D dont want them to ditch the HD
as for duke nukem forever... even if it does ever come out i dont think it will exactly have been worth the wait

Take a closer look at [url="http://screenshots.teamxbox.com/screen/36060/Xbox-360/"]this pic[/url]. It says 40GB on the side, and I'm guessing that cap/section is the slottable HD expansion?

Firstly, looks like we've moved from black, through silver to white as the 'cool' home entertainment meme for the moment. Ho hum. Where's my black, rack profile version I ask? Plain black, aluminium/steel chassis and fits in with my amp and DVD player - that's what I want!

Secondly, a tech demo of a game (ie: Duke Nukem Forever) is not a complete game. I have doubts they're actually committed to ever finish it. I predit we'll see Halloween Harry Forever before Duke I bet! [;)]

i read somewhere that the xbox360 was going to be revieled shortly before e3, though only a couple of days before.

duke nukem at e3 in 2006! wow, so soon! seriously, who cares anymore?

I'm not so sure I believe this.. it has 2 memory card slots on the front, where I'm sure they will support 4 controllers, so it doesn't make sense. Having the memory cards in the controllers has worked quite well for them so far, so I don't see any need to change.

No controller ports as it's speculated that the controllers will be wireless.

Looks a lot like a small PC to me. I thought the whole point of having an X-box was having a console that was so big that if you wanted to, you could throw at a person and kill them instantly.
Any idea on a price point? Will Bill Gates be trialing the option of simply trading your soul for one rather than paying currency?

Yes they are going to revile the Xbox 360 on MTV, world over before E3 as a way to connect to generation X, there is a preview on Australian MTV. I'm sorry I don't remember the date but google it to find out.
I can't see the preview being any more interesting than the E3 presentation: "Here's the Xbox360 and here's the specs, we do have games lined up for it but we don't have any content to show you. Instead we'll make you cream your pants at the amount of RAM it has. Did I mention the PS3 is the spawn of Satin? That?s why our's is white ...... now"

Sorry I sort of trailed off there but that?s how I imagine the MTV show will be.

Some great inadvertent typos there nick:

"going to revile the Xbox 360 on MTV"

Sony will revile it, I think microsoft will quite like it [:)]

"PS3 is the spawn of Satin"...

So you're predicting a sheer off-the-shoulder design?

mcdrewski - little do people know that Nick and I do a comic strip in the local newspapers, and these interesting typos are a frequent problem. My inspired jokes are often destroyed by this pencil donkey's inability to spell anything but his own name. I think the MTV presentation is far more likely to feature celebrities telling us that Xbox is "the bomb" and that they will be "pimpin' their ride" and "their crib" with an Xbox because it is the "shizzle, my nizzle". I don't think that MTV viewers, who are generally "rad" and "extreme" are going to give two hoots about how much RAM it has. Their main concern is how many Tony Hawk games they can play on it.

meh, you all knew what i was on about.

dont know whats with the overlay/watermark but full pic [url]http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/images/xbox360_gf.jpg[/url]

its very....xbox 1. whatever worked the first time i spose

I get the feeling that that pic's been put together from seperate front, side and maybe top view. Actually I wouldn't be surprised if that's not actually the top of the box.

looks like the [url="http://crystaltips.typepad.com/wonderland/2005/04/yes_please.html"]hello kitty xbox[/url] posted over on wonderland.

Hehe, it's not Tall_Nick's fault that hes illegitimate. [:P]

Scott.

btw, I mentioned in the first post about Prey.. [url="http://finalboss.globo.com/conteudo.asp?conteudo_id=23865"]there are some more pics here[/url]. Looking nice [:D]

i heard its gonna be shown on MTV around the 12th of May, "world exclusive" apprently

Specs for the Xbox 360 [:0]

http://www.gamesarefun.com/news.php?newsid=4844

The Hardware:
1. Support for DVD-video, DVD-Rom, DVD-R/RW, CD-DA, CD-Rom, CD-R, CD-RW, WMA CD, MP3 cd, JPEG photo CD
2. All games supported at 16:9, 720p and 1080i, anti-aliasing
3. Customizable face plates to change appearance
4. 3 USB 2.0 ports
5. Support for 4 wireless controllers
6. Detachable 20GB drive
7. Wi-Fi ready

Custom IBM PowerPC-based CPU
- 3 symmetrical cores at 3.2 GHz each
- 2 hardware threads per core
- 1 VMX-128 vector unit per core
- 1 MB L2 cache

CPU Game Math Performance
- 9 billion dots per second

Custom ATI Graphics Processor
- 500 MNz
- 10 MB embedded DRAM
- 48-way parallel floating-point shader pipelines
- unified shader architecture

Memory
-512 MB GDDR3 RAM
- 700 MNz DDR

Memory Bandwidth
- 22.4 GB/s memory interface bus bandwidth
- 256 GB/s memory bandwidth to EDRAM
- 21.6 GB/s frontside bus

Audio
- Mulitchannel surround sond output
- Supports 48khz 16-bit audio
- 320 independent decompression channels
- 32 bit processing
- 256+ audio channels

Burbenog Tower Defense level for WC3 :P
...can remember many drunken laughs (and raging hangovers) from late nights playing that with mates. I actually thought it was a take on bourban (as thats what we often drank) until I saw its proper title somewhere!

Games are tough to make drinking games out of. Years ago a few friends and I tried playstation drinking games, but didn?t come up with much. Tekken (or any street-fighting game) was about the best one ? quick bout and the loser drinks ? but as you say the loser get the most drunk and keep playing worse. We eventually gave up and opted to play the Star Wars drinking game. [url]http://wso.williams.edu/~rfoxwell/starwars/SWDrinking.htm[/url]

Well, I was bored so I whipped one up. If anyone tries this one, let us know how it works out. Tall Nick and I might give it a go on Sunday night.
I find these games work better with shots, but if you prefer to drink from a glass then you first need to settle on how much the drinker is required to drink. I find the finger system works well and that two for three fingers is usually satisfactory.

Mario Kart Drinking Game

This is a good one to get started with, and it would probably work for most racing games, though this one is especially good because the races are very short and can change results in an instant.
Etiquette dictates that the loser of each round gets to choose the next course, but each course can be played only once (trust me, that?s enough.)
Drinking rules are as follows:

Last Place: Does not drink, but if they lose three in a row he must take either two shots or scull a whole drink.

3rd: Drinks a shot or two fingers.

2nd: Half shot or one finger.

1st: Freebie. Can either choose not to drink, drink if he likes or elect someone else to drink.

If the final standings are the same in back to back rounds, then the winner, and only the winner drinks? in order to bring him back into line with the rest of the field.

Also, if you want to get drunk nice and quickly Super Monkey Ball 1 or 2has a bowling game in party mode. If somebody bowls a strike then any players who fail to bowl a strike must drink.

Strangely, the more I drink the more "at one" I become with my system and I improve... or at least I think I do...

*Gets disqualified for just drinking anyway*

Scott.

Not so much a drinking game, but a great game to play when you are drunk is Donkey Konga, due to slowed reflexes, blurring of vision, and lack of concentration you'll laugh yourself stupid at just how bad you can be at this game. (Actually, it's usually everyone else that laughs)

Microft before they started making the Xbox attemped to buy out Nintendo for what i thought to be a stupid amount of money (20 billion if i remember right). I think that Nintendo may already be regreating the choice not to. I don't think that there is really even room for 3 consoles in the market, and Nintendo seems to be the weakest player at the moment, i can't see them dissapearing in the next few years but i also can't see them lasting another decade.

Once again the power of having an endless suply of cash for marketing will be what wins the war, not which system is the best or most user friendly or even i doubt who has the best games, it will just be who can afford to pay Britney Spears and hords of other celebs to say "play [insert console name here] and you'll be cool like me"

RIP sega, beta video and the 8 track.

Starting up a new console has been tried and tried again (phantom anyone), it?s not as unlikely as one might think. Just look back 8 years when VCD?s came out, back then it was SEGA Saturn vs Nintendo 64.
Then out of the blue came Panasonics 3DO and Sonys Playstation, after a year it was Playstation vs Nintendo.
There?s a case in point, the main reason for Sony?s success is that you don?t need to get their approval to make a game, unlike SEGA and Nintendo.
In a bid to jump ahead in the race SEGA released a do or die console the Dreamcast, what some people don?t know is that before they did SEGA branched off into two sister companies.
?SEGA? was restricted to just producing and publishing games and ?Dreamcast? was the centre for developing hardware. That way when Dreamcast failed and went bankrupt SEGA could still produce games, and has done so ever since.
Maybe the fate of Nintendo?

So developing new hardware isn?t as difficult as it sounds, you just have to have a system that allows cheap and easy development of games.
Plus a huge distribution base doesn?t hurt.

That's all well and good Nick, but the industry was nowhere near as big then as it is now. Playstation is not only a household name, it's almost a household appliance. It would be much harder in today's market to overthrow the current competition now as it was then when the market base was predominately made up of hardcore gamers.
Much like Microsoft, people are so ingrained with the Playstation brand that any other system would need to be a) cheaper b) have an enormous initial line-up of instantly recognisable titles and c) be marketed as the next big thing BEFORE PS3 or even PS4 finds itself a comfortable nook in the lounge rooms* of the world.

*Lounge rooms are often referred to as dens in the US, if you're that way inclined.

I don't think the industry can support another console, and the costs involved with introducing a new console now would be a big inhibitor. The amount of money they would have to pour in, from research, production and marketing, would be in the billions. And that's not even enough yet. Building an infrastructure for online play/patches/support/communication/payment (Xbox Live, Sony's station.com), dev kits support, and other things that the consumer base will expect as standard when the next gen machine specs and services are revealed.

And with game development costs being the concern for nextgen, I doubt developers would want to port their game to a fourth console format, particularly when the new console doesn't have the numbers or support behind it. It's just not worth risking.

Wow. Quite a broad set of discussion points there!

I'm really awaiting the first release of [url="http://www.popcap.com/launchpage.php?theGame=diamondmine&src=findagame"]Bejewelled [/url] for the DS. Stylus is the best interface to play that game as I can vouch for from the [url="http://www.astraware.com/all/default/bejeweled"]PalmOS Version[/url]. A lot of other popcap games are also excellent candidates (Insanaquarium, Dinomite etc)

I can also vouch that it's possible to be completely immersed in a handheld, non-3d, sprite-based game. For example, [url="http://www.handmark.com/warfare/preview.php"]Warfare Incorporated[/url], a classic RTS is fantastic, and implemented wireless PVP well before Nintendo and the PSP "revolutionised" handheld gaming.

And if anyone could port [url="http://www.scummvm.org"]ScummVM[/url], then you could re-release all of the lucasarts adventure games on the DS. Don't tell me they're not immersive! I spent a month of train trips finishing Monkey Island again on my Palm...!

Well...
The RTS genre could be seriously revitalized by the use of a stylus as a half direct, half gestural input device.
I NEVER want to see a FPS game for a portable gaming console (clunky controls anyone?), but I think it's not far off...

Also, I believe we overestimate the merits of 3D. It's a pity that it's so hard to sell 2D games on the merit of their graphics, because they quite often outstrip their 3d counterparts in gameplay. We are still yet to invent an effective and intuative form of 3d control for most game types.

One other thing I've always wanted to do (or at least see) is a 2D, cooperative or team based multiplayer platform game. I don't think nintendo is failing in innovation as much as market share...

It's been difficult to watch nintendo's fall from grace, just as it was with sega. Using their previous backgrounds both sony (electronics, movies, music) and microsoft (computers, internet) are taking their platforms in directions that Nintendo simply can't compete with. So Nintendo are trying to innovate how players interact with games.

i dont like to guess on what's happening to nintendo and where they are going - it seems like they are losing out and will soon suffer a simular fate to sega, but they seem to be hanging on alright. this article from gamasutra in particular surprised me:

April 6, 2005 [url]http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=5250[/url]
particually this point:
"Even so, these huge profits rival those of Sony?s games division and completely overshadow the consistent losses made by Microsoft?s Xbox division ? suggesting that Nintendo needs neither third party support nor even a best selling home console in order to generate enviable profits."

as for the DS, i've got an oppinion about the amount of inovation it offers and how it's been used so far. i intend to post it up as soon as i get some free time - it's kind of a long rant :)

on the subject of immersion, i've been totally immersed in 2d sprite games - recently metroid fusion on the GBA on a couple of years ago. i think there is a big difference between gameplay immersion and audio/visual immersion. and though fusion exceled in the gameplay imersion, the visuals and audio also had their own imersiveness, and it's had to say iof it would have been any better if they were high quality 3d. perhaps a higer resolution screen and better quality audio may have helped, but that's a immersive quality as a result of better technology making the result crisper and clearer, not imersive quality as a result of better technology allowing for 'better' art work'.

[url="http://cube.ign.com/articles/604/604674p1.html"]This IGN article[/url] has some numbers on how many game units and consoles have been sold for the last month, and the Gamecube is not doing good at all..quote:The first game from Nintendo's Tokyo studio, Donkey Kong Jungle Beat, debuted in March to abysmal sales figures. The bongo-based platformer sold through a paltry 39,000 units for the month, well below expectations.

Both Resident Evil 4 and Star Fox Assault, debuting exclusively for GameCube in January and February respectively, outperformed Jungle Beat, although neither ranked among the month's Top 10 sellers.

"Mario Party 6, NBA Street V3, Robots, MVP Baseball 2005, Dragon Ball Z Sagas, The Incredibles and Super Smash Bros. Melee, none of which sold more than 48,000 units, rounded out the GameCube Top 10 for the month."

Overall GameCube hardware sales for the month were a reflection of software sales: down. Approximately 90,000 GameCubes were sold for the month.

Sony, meanwhile, sold almost 500,000 more PlayStation 2s in March. Microsoft sold about 230,000 more Xbox consoles.

If software sells hardware, Nintendo is sure to be in even bigger trouble in April. There are no new games coming out for GameCube in April.
No new games coming out at all in April? [xx(]

Nintendo have always been at the forefront of developing new and creative gameplay, whether it's at the expense of pretty flashing lights that you game artists so desperately need to flesh out your gaming experience is of no consequence.
Super Mario 64 was the birth of the 3D platformer, and thanks to it's re-release as a DS game, reformed fanboys like yourself have been given an opportunity to discover a game that still holds up against and even puts to shame some of the games being released today.
Nintendo's in house titles are more often than not overflowing with original concepts and quality gameplay, which is more than can be said for Sony's in house titles which amount sweet FA. It's easy to win the console wars, just license your system to every developer willing to pander to the lowest common denominator's obsession with sex and violence and wait for the money to roll on in.
Sure, you find the occasional gem in the Grand Theft Auto or Metal Gear Solid series, but you have to sift through a cavalcade of shite to get to it.
Not with Nintendo. You pick up an exclusive Nintendo title, and more often than not it is solid GOLD! So you can keep your PSP with it's "beautifully lit backdrop, reflections and a soundtrack that rivals blah blah blah". I have a DS because it will allow me to play titles that Sony Cronies can only dream about. And that's games with substance, character and heart.

i agree that many of the titles that nintendo brings out are top quality, but that dosnt change the fact that they need to increase their market share if only to encourage more 3rd party suport. sure yuo might get more crap filtering in, but at the moment if you want both GTA, etc and zelda you need to own two systems.

Don't you think exclusive titles are exactly what's keeping Nintendo alive? If it weren't for exclusive title rights, then we'd all have one generic console and you know what happens when there's no competition... prices go up, and quality comes crashing down. The last golden era of Nintendo was when they had control of RARE... what happened to them after they were lured with great hordes of cash. I think there was a Conker sequel that was largely ignored. Banjo Kazooie never made another appearance. Nintendo look after their children and their fans. If only the fans were as loyal and consistent as the product.

Exclusive title is the only reason Nintendo?s home consoles exist.
Incase your loyalty as a obvious Fanboy has clouded your vision, Nintendo don?t develop any in-house games any more.
Their sports titles are made by Camelot, Pok?mon is made by Game freak, and all Zelda titles are now being done by the folks who made ?The minish Cap?, Just because Nintendo is written on the box doesn?t mean they had anything to do with the idea.
Neither does it stop those same companies from releasing the same type of game under a new name (and different characters of course).

Hyperswivel, reading your first replay its obvious you?re a fanboy, and are really upset at the fact that Nintendo aren?t what they once were.
So I want to clarify some things before you continue in a blind rage.

?Nintendo have always been at the forefront of developing new and creative gameplay?

Yes they have been (past tense), yes Mario 64 was a revolution. I covered the point that Nintendo started a revolution, but name a (Nintendo published) revolutionary game that came out in the Game Cube.
Surely you wouldn?t say Mario Sunshine or Zelda Windwaker, or even Smashbrothers M are revolutionary?
No it seems that that quality about Nintendo has gone out.

?which is more than can be said for Sony's in house titles which amount sweet FA?

You forgot to mention Microsoft, but hey they?ve had enough trouble with launching the Xbox.
The beauty about Sony and Microsoft is the fact that you don?t need their approval to produce a game on there console, as apposed to Nintendo where they breathe down your neck until it?s what they want on there console.
Remember, Resident Evil only came out 6 years after it was released on PS1.
Why? Because the revolutionary Nintendo didn?t want to adapt.
Where as Sony and Microsoft don?t care what you do as long as you pay the dev kit fee?s and so spawn more Innovative games.

This is a long one,
?Sure, you find the occasional gem in the Grand Theft Auto or Metal Gear Solid series, but you have to sift through a cavalcade of shite to get to it.
Not with Nintendo. You pick up an exclusive Nintendo title?

This one?s difficult to retort for the reason that, I know you (the reason I?m picking on you) and you?ve never played more than 2 minutes of either of those games or any of the greats on a PS2 or Xbox.
Fact is that more great titles come out for PS2 and Xbox than Game Cube exclusive titles in a year, I think the ratio is around 10:3.

And to finish off,
?So you can keep your PSP with it's "beautifully lit backdrop, reflections and a soundtrack that rivals blah blah blah". I have a DS because it will allow me to play titles that Sony Cronies can only dream about?

Fact is Sony don?t need to dream up a good idea for a PSP game they?ve provided sufficient hardware for developers to do that, and they have 100+ developers and Publishers ready to get innovative titles off the ground.
Meanwhile Nintendo are still overlooking each title being produced for their system making sure sequels get made and flash games are ported.

I haven?t gone too far off topic have I? I don?t want to turn this into a plug for Sony.
I?ve always been a supporter of innovative games and am willing to buy a console to play something new. But this isn?t about how I feel towards games this is about the fact that because Nintendo are stubborn in their ways they have lost their revolutionary touch and if not changed aren?t going to be around for much longer.
The good news is that the great revolutionary games they publish will be.

A lot of very good points their Nick. While the Gamecube didn't host completely revolutionary games, they did at least try to be a bit more creative with their direction. Pikmin comes to mind, as does Donkey Kong Jungle Beat. I agree as far as Nintendo's iron fist needing to loosen it's grasp... I'm sick of going to EB month after month to find nothing new for my console. I'm not sure, but don't those developers you listed make games exclusively for Nintendo? I'd consider that pretty close to in-house, but I'll qualify my statements in future by saying "exclusive Nintendo property" or "stuff that Shigeru (The Shigster) Miyamoto done did".
Unlike a lot of gamers, I simply don't have the time to invest in multiple consoles. Sticking to a system that I know will deliver me quality titles with generally good replay value (particularly pick up and play multiplayer games that lend themselves to a party atmosphere). When something truly brilliant for another machine comes out that I can't find a similar alternative to on a Nintendo system, or on PC then I will consider purchasing one but until then I just can't justify it and will be sitting tight here in my comfort zone.

I've noticed alot of "nintendo has fallen from grace" comments and although I'm no fanboy of any particular console I'd have to say that for all there cuteness and fluffy, happy visuals they still have some of the most creative titles as well as some of the best gameplay out there.

Is it so much a fault of Nintendo that they have lost favour with the 'masses' or is it a sign that people are becoming overly obssessed with visuals and not content?

Hmm reminds me of something....Can anyone say "Hollywood" ............

quote:Is it so much a fault of Nintendo that they have lost favour with the 'masses' or is it a sign that people are becoming overly obssessed with visuals and not content?

i shouldnt think so. i think the main reason is lack of titles, not people looking only for pretty pictures. i think if nintendo had the same 3rd party support as the other consoles the market shares would be much closer, not becuase you could then get the pretty visuals on any system, but because you could then get a large range of good games on any system. and a whole lot with prety pictures, but you dont have to buy those.

whats interesting to note about nintendo though (and i base this on what i've read and heared not solid fact) is that while they have lost market share, they are still doing just as well finacially, if not more so, than they ever have. i dont think they have lost any gamers so - sony and microsoft have simply gained far more. to me it seems there's a big difference between market share and profits, and it's profits thats going to keep nintendo in the business or not.

That's an interesting point about Nintendo not losing market share as a result of it's competitors gaining ground. This is attributable to at least two facts. One being that there are more gamers than ever before, and also that unlikke ten years ago, company loyalty has dwindled and more and more people are owners of multiple systems which is nothing but good news for everyone... except poor people.

It's a pretty interesting article. From the sounds of it, making an animated film will be cheaper than making a game in the near future. It would also be easier because you only have to craft a single storyline and then storyboard and animate it instead of doing all that extra fangled coding and design stuff.

I just hope that indie games become as good, so far the biggest problem for them has been market penetration and actually finishing the damn things (how many of you know projects online that have never been finished?). Anyways, I guess I should take a look at some indie games and consider purchasing them sometime.

Lanning has got some excellent points in that interview. Definately worth a read.

After reading all this on other news articles, I had the sinking feeling that this is just the beginning of these kind of stories. All the blame seems to lead right to the publishers and their grip on the industry. New distribution models, and peoples acceptance of them, is going to be needed...

quote:Originally posted by Souri

All the blame seems to lead right to the publishers and their grip on the industry. New distribution models, and peoples acceptance of them, is going to be needed...

Valve's Steam system is a perfect example of different distribution methods. Although, publishers arn't all about distribution, they're often a primary funding source as well.. Not every team can fund their own project.

Thanks for the link [:)]

Definately some valid points in that article.

I hate to be the devil - but all this noise about developers having a hard time with making any profit etc is really starting to be tedious. I'm of the strong oppinion that if developers choose to be raped in a publishing deal then tough tim tams.

I have so much to say on this topic I wont bore anyone here with my almost daily writing of thoughts on it.

The short end is basically this. We are the developers. Take us away and there is no game. If you dont realise the power in this - bend over and take the pain with a smile.

I am intrigued by your opinions and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

(ie : are you blogging any of these writings?)

ok, that's awsome!

although you'd think if "Gibby" can afford all that then he could afford a bigger TV!

and wait a sec... are all those systems plugged into the one TV??? i used to get worried about running my nes and snes through the a single tv at the same time! cripes!

Oh my gosh. I want that "The Wizard" poster.

Best movie ever.

Wow, that?s so cool (not The Wizard though :P)! That?s the kind of thing I always dreamed of owning when I was a kid. Except with a much larger TV.

I must admit I can?t identify all of those consoles. Sega Saturn? NeoGeo? Sega MegaCD? Anyone recognise them all?

best movie ever eh? right o then.... (though i must admit it probably is the best game related movie of the lot)

Freakin hell man...check out all those games! [:0]

I'm hoping to do something similar to this one day...when I have lots of money...

First thing I?ll do when I win the lotto!

Damn rich kid, I bet he hasn?t even played all of them?
*me jealous*

quote:Originally posted by palantir
I must admit I can?t identify all of those consoles. Sega Saturn? NeoGeo? Sega MegaCD? Anyone recognise them all?

From top to bottom, left to right...

1: NES, C64, Atari 7800 (could be a 2600, but doubtful)
2: ??? (PROBABLY a Coleco Adam...), Sega Master System, ??? (Intellivision I think)
3: Atari 400 / 800 (or a MSX??), Atari Jaguar, Mega Drive 2 + Mega CD 2
4: SNES, Nintendo 64, Sega Saturn, Sega Dreamcast, Neo Geo
5: Xbox, Game Cube, ??? (Coleco?), ??? (Phillips CD-I?)

Damn, I should know this more...stupid home monitor...I'll try again tomorrow when I can see it better :)

Nice work! You did better then me - I've never even heard of an Atari Jaguar or Phillips CD-I :(

wow oh wow, the shots of the shelves just filled with games is what get me. i never really have more then 20 console games in my possesion as i usually sell the old ones so i can afford the new ones! thats just crazy

That is insane! I hope they are insured cause it's priceless.

The bottom right I think is the Neo Geo with the arcade cartridge format but I'm not sure, haven't seen one in years. Left of that I'm fairly certain is a Colecovision. The C64 is an old model, possibly even a VIC 20. The Atari at top right is definitely a 7800, the 2600 had a wood finish. Otherwise I'm in agreement with Gazunta. I'm gonna be like this in my old age - I can't bear to part with any of my consoles or games, even my poor Saturn with the busted controller.

Did anyone catch the Virtualboy in the Playstation cabinet? :D

I get the feeling this guy is more of a collector than a gamer, do you think he has actually played even close to half those games, let alone finished or enjoyed them? What scares me is the way he has SPECTRALLY ORGANISED his games into a rainbow fashion, he seems more enamoured with how they look on the shelf than as to how they play.

Why would anyone want a Jaguar or Virtual Boy?

my guess he works or own a game shop or knows someone who owns one. Otherwise why would someone get the jag or VB.
I have a saturn too. I wonder if it still works.

It doesn't take a collector to organise games in such a fashion, just someone with obviously too much time on their hands who are also slightly pedantic and possibly obsessive compulsive.

And why can't have they finished all the games, play one per weekend, you'd finish around 52 per year. Add in that holiday time and weekday time if you're some sort of student and you'd probably be able to polish off a good 100 games a year easily. Hand helds you could also play while on the bus, being driven in a car and numerous other places.

Hey Daemin, I think collectors by their very nature are pedantic and obsessive compulsive people. Collectors tend to organise and display their collections in all sorts of festidious arrays, it's part and parcel of their hobby.

Sure it's possible he's played them, but do you really think he would do that? I'm not saying he doesn't enjoy playing games, but was pointing out that he probably enjoys collecting them more than he does playing them. I guess I see it that simply owning buckets and buckets of games is no indication to me of how much you enjoy playing them.

It?s quite reasonable to assume that he?s more of a collector then a player. I know several people with massive games collection, and many of their games they have only played briefly once or twice. It?s quite easy to build a big collection when your working ? years ago I had a flat mate that used to buy 2 or 3 Playstation games a week, just buying them impulsively on his way home from work. Sure was good living with someone like that!

So I assume this guy just loves collecting games, but probably rairly finishes a game.

quote:Originally posted by Daemin

And why can't have they finished all the games, play one per weekend, you'd finish around 52 per year. Add in that holiday time and weekday time if you're some sort of student and you'd probably be able to polish off a good 100 games a year easily. Hand helds you could also play while on the bus, being driven in a car and numerous other places.
He has [url="http://www.nescapades.com/stats.htm"]5,303 games[/url] [:0]

Also, you can see the list of consoles he has in his [url="http://www.nescapades.com/collections.htm"]collection here[/url].

Sometimes I think I'm more of a collector than a player. I at least 5 top Nintendo titles sitting there and I haven't even looked at them. I know if I begin, then I have to follow through and finish them and that will lead to me neglecting my girlfriend and thus my own needs.
As such, I find myself buying more and more multiplayer games, which is fine until I get beaten by someone who, until they met me, had never even held a controller in her life.
Makes me wonder what all those years of practice were for.

omfg, thats hardcore.

About 2 years ago, I started getting mail in the post that I needed to renew my domain name and that the domain would expire if I don't pay. It was weird because I had another year and a bit left. About 2 weeks later, I got another one. At this point, I thought maybe something was up, so I contacted my registrar and found that I definately had plenty of time left. I even got a few more letters in the mail which I just threw in the bin. Anyway, the company that sent all these got slapped by the department of Fair Trading for trying to mislead people and companies to renew their domain names with a new registrar..

It's not as bad as a registrar taking your money and running off, but it's definately up there in the scamming list.

After a week long saga - its been sorted out. The website will be functional again at midnight tonight.

What a bizzare week. [:O]

There are a few games that I have played that have had a pretty borring conlusion to the hard effort. But I never really notice that much as getting to the end was really what mattered for me. If I had an awesome time playing the game, the ending wouldn't really matter. But I can see your point.

I?m confused. What exactly were you hoping for?
I always play games for the gameplay, not to get rewarded at the end. Most games usually just offer a cut scene (if it?s story based) and the end credits. That should be enough.

Games are about the journey, not the destination.

-Though I do understand the feeling of disapointment when finishing a game and not getting a cut scene or something else interesting.

quote:Originally posted by Tall_Nick


I want to know if there is a game that you've thought was the best ever, only to receive a kick in the pants?

Oh man, that would definately have to go to Silent Hill. It was a hard slog to finish the game, but when I did, I got the crappy ending. [:X] Apparently I missed a blood syringe that was hidden in a bike in one of the three sections of the town. [xx(] I had to kill one of the main characters in the game who was posessed or something, where the blood syringe would have turned her back to normal.

Of course, I couldn't find a saved game to redo it because I had already rewritten over old saves (the part where you had to collect the syringe was about mid game!). [V] So if I wanted to see the normal ending, I'd have to play the game all over again, but I was borrowing my nephews Playstation and had to return it.

There were 4 basic endings to silent hill 1, good ? bad, and good - bad with saving the police woman from possession. Silent Hill one also had an alternate ending in replay where you can get abducted by aliens about 2 / 3 through the game. Then if you play it a 3rd time you have a ray gun.

For me its Legecy of Kain: Soul Reaver on PS1 and Golden Sun on GBA both for the same reason. You play these great games, have a ball, get to the end a big climax starts and? to be continued. WTF I think that if a game is going to have a ?to be continued ending? the packaging should contain information to this effect, something like part 1 of x

meh

Pantmonger

Completing a game should be the reward for playing it, getting something extra should be the reason for playing it again.
Think Metal Gear Solid, if you collected enough dog tags you could play through the game with infinite ammo or the stealth suit.
This makes the game fun again and encourages you to play it again.
In regards to Mario 64 DS a new level would have been a great reward, even an old level unlocked for multi player would have been great.
In Yoshi's Island the reward for getting all extra bits was a bunch for multi player mini games, even in GTA getting all the extra packages gave you weapons.

Yes playing the game is the point of it. But just as watching a movie is where the fun is: If the reward for watching a movie standing on one leg, is a box of popcorn AFTER the film has finished.
It's not worth putting in that extra effort.

Ah, sorry, I see what you mean. I agree, finishing a game should unlock something making it worthwhile playing through again.

A recent example I can think of is Spiderman 2 of ps2. I enjoyed playing through it, and after the story ends and the final cut-scene plays your told something like ?see if you can score 50000 points?. So I played on, exploring every nook and cranny like in GTA, but when you reach 50000 points it just has a voice-over that says something like ?Wow, I didn?t think you could do it. Well done.? ?and that?s it! It could at least have unlocked some super-power or something. What a rip!

I love your analogy of being told to stand on one leg through a movie for popcorn after the movie!

Unreal. Traded in 3 games that I got for Christmas 2 months before hand, and forked over an extra 50. That game just kept on bloody dragging. Then came the ending... To Be Continued...

Bastards.

Another to be continued 'ending' urge to kill rising.

i rember Blast Corps on the 64 - you finish it (which was tough enough in itself) and the game says: "now do it faster!" and you have to beat each level in a certain amount of time. once you do that it says "now do it even faster!" and you have to beat each level again, even faster! i never beat it 'even faster', though i had fun trying. but in this instance i think i would have been happy with a simple 'congratulatiions' afte doing it. anything else unlocked wouldn't have been nesessary - i'd have played enough of it by then and to 'do it even faster' would have meant i compelted the game 100% - nothing left, nadda, done and done. all i would have required was confirmation of that, not a reward in the form of more gameplay.]

i agree that no reward for finishing a game is kinda disapointing (i had the same feeling with the original Mario 64), but i thought the above example is an interesting point to make too.

The game ending that got my panties in a bunch was Arcanum.

In it, you could get the good ending or the evil ending depending on whether you sided with the final boss. As it turned out, I picked the evil dialogue option by mistake then defeated the boss. The ending for the game then showed how we destroy the world together and then he betrays and kills me. The annoying thing too was I saved my game AFTER that dialogue so no matter how convincingly I kill the boss he still wins in the end.

Grrr.

Scott.

I didn't really have too much of a problem with the ending of GTA San Andreas. I guess they could have worked in a few more things to keep running around the levels interesting, other than just trying to find hidden packages and missions. But hey, there was so much content in San Andreas that I don't really mind. I spent a good 6 weeks playing through the missions in San Andreas, rather than spending a few days of constant play. In the end I had enjoyed the game so much more because of this, I really got my moneys worth.

There does seem to be a stigma attached to finishing a game in record time, I remember the day hl2 was released. I brought the game 2 days later and already so many people where talking about the ending.

How long they played for I have no idea - maybe 10 - 12 hours per day some maybe even played it nonstop.
But what do you do with a game that offers nothing more than 20 odd hours if there are no multiplayer tweaks, or worldbuilding features to create new worlds and missions to complete.

Everythings becoming so vast and its not a choice - market *almost* deems it necessary that for a FPS of any kind to do well, it would need the latest bells and whistles + xyz modes of deathmatch + level design capabilities as a bare minimum.

We are so demanding as consumers [:O] at maybe 200 - 300 titles a year across all platforms, each developer churns out maybe 2 if they are lucky. The competition is so stiff, and the critique by the consumer is tougher and tougher. Somethings got to give - and i think youll find that *despite a majority of DEVELOPERS feelings* the cut comes out of the actual finished content, In favour of publisher demands ( who pull the figures from market research )

Evil, evil circle.

I should have specified, I have no complaints about the bonuses in GTA it?s just the storyline that sucked.
You spend the entire game reclaiming the hood and then building a huge empire for yourself taking down the Italian mafia in the process, all in the name of freeing your brother.
When you finally get to release him and tell him what you have done for him he ignores you and wants to sit in his house like so many hermits before him.
I?ve always disliked the way the GTA story line disregards your previous achievements, But that?s a completely different topic altogether.

I?m glad I saw the ending of Half Life 2 rather than play through it myself again a huge story that builds to a dramatic point then flushes it down the toilet.
When buying games now I almost it?s almost always because of the multiplayer aspect, having the extra 20 hours of a single player campaign is a bonus.
With the infinite choice of FPS?s out in the market it?s the multiplayer modes that will make the game sell, people still play Counterstrike.
Playing a game that has a compelling storyline and real-time physics on the characters fingernails is all good and fun, but having two (or more) real people fighting against/with each other will give the game added lifespan and replay-ability.

Now I?ve gone completely off topic.
Since multiplayer has such a huge replay ability it should be natural that a bonus for doing something outstanding be the ability to play with/against another human.
In my case of Mario 64 DS unlocking a bonus map for multiplayer would mean that everyone I play against would congratulate me for giving them something extra and give the game added life.

Hope this makes sense?

quote:Originally posted by Anuxinamoon

There are a few games that I have played that have had a pretty borring conlusion to the hard effort. But I never really notice that much as getting to the end was really what mattered for me. If I had an awesome time playing the game, the ending wouldn't really matter. But I can see your point.

I agree. A few examples of mine:

Deus Ex - The end of the game got pretty poor (definately looked like the budget ran out). Admittedly, this left a "sour taste in my mouth", but overall, the game was excellent. Even knowing it had an average ending, I ended up playing the game through 3 times - discovering more each time I played it.

Doom 3 - Everyone knows the initial hype, but there were many disappointed people once it had been released. Okay, the ending sucked, but many elements of the game were good. True, it dragged out at times (okay, another dark corner... let me guess what's coming), but on the other hand, there were some really awesome parts to it. Attention to detail in many areas was great.

Half Life 2 - Okay, I haven't finished it yet. Not because I didn't like it, and not because it bored me - I'm just too busy at the moment. I've heard about it having a reasonably average ending, but I don't think that'll change my opinion. I still remember the first half hour to an hour of the game - I was completely awe-struck. Doom3 had pretty graphics, but HL2 had immersion. I remember stepping out of the train to see the drone fly towards me and take my photo. I remember looking at my surrounds - just turning the camera and looking. I remember walking towards the guard, having him strike his stunstick against the train and rushing towards me... and that was just the first 5 minutes.
Watching people actually have physical expression as they talked - you could almost see fear in their eyes. Walking around the town... looking off to the distance and wondering what that great structure was. There were other points in the game that drew me to it, but nothing like the beginning. Regardless of how poor this game might end, it still rates highly on my list for that initial experience.

i really liked the endings to deus ex (dx2 on the other hand....) - they fit the story well and were all plausable conclusions to the story (though the ai and dark age one could have been set up a litle more). what i didnt like was the way you got the endings: no matter what you did throughout the game it made no difference: simply hit button A for ending A. i guess it worked with the 'make your own choices' theme - if i want to change my mide at the last minute then i should beable to, but i kind of takes the meaning out of how you played through the rest of the story. oh, and my favorite was the illuminati one, just so you all know.

ok, enough of me going off topic.

here's one Jurrasic Park on the snes - kinda crappy game but i liked it. problem was it took many hours to finish (with no way to save) and in the you get this cinimatic of a flat green island (with great big JP logo in the centre) spining and panning away in what is supposed to be your view form the helicopter (and for some reason the sea around the island is surrounded by mountains). fade to black. that's it. GARH!

not a game (yet), but The da Vinci code had the worst ending ever.

***PARTIAL SPOILER***

They run all 'round europe trying to save a shadowy consipracy from gaining access to a monumental mystery which could ruin the entire catholic church - and find out it's always been safe anyway and there's no problem.

***PARTAL SPOILER***

What a freakin' waste of my time.

edited to add "SPOILER" warning [:)]

Guess I don't need to read THAT book now...

Speaking of books, anyone else read a book called 'Snow Crash'? Written by Neal Stephenson, fantastic sci-fi/cyberpunk book, buy it if you see it.

[:D] the story's just as good if you know that bit of the ending - I'm sure...

Hehe, it's no big deal, wasn't ever planning on reading it anyway, it was a rather tongue in cheek comment as you didn't really give away anything specific, just a vague notion of the plot.

I was actually planning on reading it soon ? it?s sitting on my ?waiting list? bookshelf. Think I?ll still read it, despite the fact that I now having a slight idea of how it ends. LOL.

I won?t continue this off topic subject, but someone should make a thread about general (non-games) reading, since we seem to all have similar interests around here?

quote:Originally posted by mcdrewski

not a game (yet), but The da Vinci code had the worst ending ever. They run all 'round europe trrying to save a shadowy consipracy from gaining access to a monumental mystery which could ruin the entire catholic church - and find out it's always been safe anyway and there's no problem.

What a freakin' waste of my time.

That reminds me of the movie [url="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0264395/"]Basic[/url], with John Travolta and Samuel L Jackson. It's one of those investigation/court movies which I saw in the cinema, and I concentrated pretty hard to remember all the information/evidence and who was saying what for the entire movie to figure out who was telling the truth, until the ending revealed that...

**SPOILER**

..none of it was true. It was all made up by both parties. *Everything* they said didn't happen at all. [:X]

**END SPOILER**

Anyway, the Da Vinci Code - I only read the first 40 pages before giving the book back. Just didn't have the time to read it all. There were some interesting things about the Mona Lisa and other tidbits in history though.

ah! ...it was all a dream :)

Now to take this completely OT, I just read a great book by [url="http://www.simonsingh.com/Big_Bang.html"]Simon Singh called "Big Bang"[/url], and in that, he talks about a movie called [url="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0037635/"]Dead of Night[/url]. The plot is basically a horror story which turns out to be all a dream, which, upon waking, starts the story all again. It had such an impact on three British astronomers that they were inspired to create a model of the unverse in which everything was cyclic (Major competitor to Big Bang, yada yada yada).

Now, this was not in itself particularly fascinating, but while I was reading I thought to myself that these days the all a dream/cyclic thing would never fly as a mainstream game/movie plot. I remember doing the Queensland QCS (Tertiary Entrance Exam) practice and using that concept myself - then hearing some teachers talk about this awful story they had to read. Come on! you try writing a well structured and creative piece from scratch in 3hrs!

Calming down now [:D]

Anyway, all these ideas, plots and endings were unique and fresh once, no matter how bad they may now seem.

Deus Ex: The endings were alright. I remember the first time I played through the game, I saved in the middle of the last level. I don't think I touched it for a good year or two before finally coming back to see what happened.

The game itself was bloody awesome, I've played through it again and again. I love just walking around talking to people, figuring out things and playing through the different side missions.

Halo 2: Didn't even have an ending. Get to a cutscene, go upstairs to get a drink and some chips, come back down and the credits are playing.... WTF???

Doom 3: Didn't really expect anything else.

Half-life 2: The ending didn't annoy me so much. Fair enough if the Gman takes Gordon back, but not learning anything about what the hell has happened on earth, that sucked!

I think a lot of developers have cliffhanger syndrome. They end their stories like a two part episode of Stargate. Unfortunately the next game doesn't come a week, two weeks or six months down the track... its usually 3 to 5 years.

How hard could it be to focus on a single story in each game. Sure, they can have a story arc that spans over 3 titles, but don't just stop the thing halfway through.

the doom 3 endig confused the hell out of me (no pun intended), mainly becuase i couldnt keep track of which bald guy was which!

Back on topic - I just finished Half-Life 2 (finally) and I immediately want to play it through again from scratch with the weapon you get just near the end of the game.

...but you don't. :(

theres a mod or cheat or something somewhere that allows you to do that mcdrewski, have a look around halflife 2 dedicated sites like http://halflife2.filefront.com/

Gee Nick, whatever game you're working on right now better have one kick ass ending, or you might be labelled a hypocrit.
Even though I'm speaking from outside of the industry, I imagine that when it comes to creating an ending for a game it is an afterthought more often than it is a planned piece of a cohesive narrative and as such is thought up at a time when the production is being wrapped up and most everyone can't stand the thought of rendering that same god-damn character again in a cutscene just so the player can have some closure on something they've invested a fraction of the time in playing as it did to make. We gamers are unappreciative bastards.

The textures! The textures! [:o]

Such a cool looking game! :)

YES!!!
Just finished it the other day, fantastic game.
Stunning art direction and my fav aspect was the levels, such atmosphere!

...and when are you going to play Metal Gear 3 Troy!

quote from rezn0r - "the whole game looks like a cutscene"...

sounds like the excuse I needed to buy a GC.

Makk: LOL! Soon, Soon!!! Devil May Cry 3 & Shadow Hearts first...
Mcdrewski: It *is* the excuse - you are most certainly excused [:P]

Aven brought it over during Easter and it looked really nice :) I can't say it's really my type of game but I Joel was sold on it.

"The whole game looks like a cutscene"tm.

T'is a champion game indeed. When our household got it we decided to have a night with the lights off playing resident evil 4 over a few (read many) drinks. We had a hoot.

This game has sold me on the cube (just like Jade Empire will sell me on the XBox).

Scott.

Heaps of fun :D

Awesome visuals (the lava room in the castle dropped my jaw flat to the ground). Sweet little details (water spray on Leon's shoulders during the rainy parts, Leon twiching his head to look at the crossbow bolts as they fly past his head).

Ada.... [:I]

All the little easter eggs (shoot Del Lago's lake several times before hopping into the boat :p)

The only thing is, it isn't anywhere near as scary as the others, and the puzzles are piss weak :(

Fantastic game overall and my fav on the Cube :D

I'm with snsonline.net and haven't had any problems.

I guess the only thingis that if you're hosting big content like reels, maps, mods and so-on you should ask about how you can cap the downloads in a given month (or so). Most providers give you a certain amount of downloads in a month, and bill after that. Just in case you get slashdotted or insanely popular for some reason, it'd be nice if your provider could gracefully deny people access rather than send you a bill for $x000 dollars for a month...

I've used [url]www.smartyhost.com.au[/url]'s services for a while and I've never had a problem with them. They offer a great deal - A decent amount of web space and a good 20GB/month bandwidth. They have a pretty decent set of site admin tools, so its possible you could set up something along the lines of mcdrewski's suggestion, but I would contact them to make sure before signing up.

I'm using www.hostdome.com

They are reliable and affordable.

It's $2.95 US / month for Bronze Plan - 1 gig download + 250meg storage.

erm, the scan?

[url="http://inlandempirestrikesback.net/v-web/gallery/albums/IESBGAMES/gamei…"]Oops [/url][:D]

very interesting read. i wonder how much of it is fact though, like the "Xbox 360" and other information tht i havnt seen or heared anywhere else on the net. and i should think that if it became know that the revolution will use a touchscreen it would be all over web gaming sites.

still, it seems likly, and i know i have suspected a touch screen for some time now based of what i've read elsewhere and comments by nintendo.

i both like the sound of a touchscreen and worry about it. some great gameplay inovations could come out of it (i have one idea in particular which i'd love to do, but of course can't), but it might not be recieved by the masses very well, and i'm thinking we will see even less cross platform ports to it that the GC.

Well.... it'll be easier to clean.

we had this topic at work the other day, it was all interesting until one of the programmers pointed out that a touch screen only detects one point at any given time.
The only way to replace the buttons is to have mutable touch screens.... oh wait that?s what buttons are!
As this info is coming from third hand sources I'd like to know if someone misinterpreted that the revolution can use the DS as a controller (like the GBA-GC link)?

most current touchscreens work that way on things like palmpilots etc, but that's not to say that multi-zone or multi-touch pads aren't feasible and practical even with current tech.

[url="http://games.slashdot.org/games/05/04/27/2137243.shtml?tid=234&tid=10"]Real-time 3D projection[/url] for Nintendo Revolution? [:0]

"At the core of the theory sits how Revolution will display games: through a form of real-time 3D projection. That's right folks, along the lines of a classic 50s monster movie. Nintendo itself has stated that what it plans to use on Revolution isn't all that unique, only that it has never been applied to videogames. Taking that into account, plus recent patents filed by Nintendo, and it doesn't sound all that far fetched, argues Burgess."

It sounds cool, you'll see the 3D by wearing special glasses, but I'm still waiting for virtual reality headsets to make a comeback. [:(!]

(ok, it seems this speculation has been debunked already, but the idea was pretty cool, I think)

You can get like 1G (or so?) memory sticks for it though, which is only half the size of a UMD disc anyway (but rather expensive). Being able to create your own UMD's wouldn't be that fantastic for your average consumer after you take into account you would have to buy a special hardware to create the disc. The number of people who would buy that is probably small enough to push the hardware over the $1000+ mark, which makes the memory sticks look a little mroe attractive :P
(What am i doing defending the PSP anyway?)
CYer, Blitz

I found out the other day that there are 2GIG Memory stickDUO's available, if the demand is great enough than they'll create bigger sizes. If only it had at least 10G then it could compete with iPod.

Thats my 2 cents

Some info about the version 2.0 Firmware upgrade on the PSP..

From July, 27th, 2005, the new system software update will start. This update will upgrade your system version to 2.0. Changelog:

Main function updated in system software version 2.0
- Network
Internet browser added
* Macromedia Flash is not supported. A part of the web pages might not be displayed correctly
* The startup of the internet browser can be limited.

- Video
Jump function added (UMD Video & UMD Music)
A-B repeat function added (UMD Video & UMD Music & videos stored in Memory sticks)
"4:3 mode" added to Video mode (videos stored in Memory sticks)
Sound mute function added (videos stored in Memory sticks)
MP4 (AVC) format playback support added (videos stored in Memory sticks)

-Music
Can accept music tracks in Atract3 Plus format from "Sonicstage" under version 3.2 (now for pre-order)
MP4 (AAC) & Wave (Linear PCM) format playback support added (music stored in Memory sticks)

- Photo
Wallpaper function added
Image receiving function added
TIFF, GIF, PNG, BMP format supported

- Settings
"Korean language" added to "system settings" -> "System language"
"Character set" added to "system settings"
"Theme settings" added
"Internet browser startup limit" added to "Security settings"
"WPA-PSK (TKIP)" added to security method in "Network settings"
Keyboard now support web input.
* All the setting before the upgrade will be preserved.

And damn, the white psp looks nice [:)]

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20050721/scei09.jpg
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20050721/scei10.jpg
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20050721/scei11.jpg
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20050721/scei1.htm

And today is the day for 2.0, hooray for everyone who has a Japanese PSP (me).

Here's the download page for PSP Japan:
download here:
http://www.playstation.jp/psp/update/ud_03.html

translate here:
http://babelfish.altavista.com/

But this morning They had not updated the downloadable version yet :(
Keep checking for Online PSP goodness, If anyone besides me gets the update, post on what its like.

http://dj01.psp.update.playstation.org/update/jp/2005_0727_62f6d3d18038…

get it here, it works for both US and Jap PSP's and keeps your system in english.
I'd post more but I guess I'm the only one here with a PSP?

My friend has a PSP, but he's steering clear from the firmware update. Doesn't want to give up the homebrew and snes emulator stuff.

That seems to be one of the only things that the new update doesn't offer that Homebrew does, I figure I can live without a snes emulator that runs at half speed.
Isn't that what a GBA's for (only at normal speed)?

Thought this would be the appropriate place to put it, discovered this competition being run in australia for film makers. Essentially its just a short film contest with a PSP logo on it but the premise is that you make a film (under a few different categories like "music video" "documentary" and some other more vauge headings like "artistic" ) to be screened on the PSP. The winners go up for download. Seems like a marketing tool but also a neat way of promoting the product, as it means we'll have some interesting home made content to look at when the competition concludes. Linky: http://www.pspexpose.com.au/

I'm tempted to buy a PSP, but I'm a little cautious forking out so much money for something I know little about. Sure there's the tech specs but the limited choice in UMD movies and games at the moment makes me a little hesistant to buy this just yet.

Probably a few months down the track when its cheaper (and when v2.0 firmware is cracked) I'll look at buying one.

The funny thing is when the PSP launched there were plenty of games to satisfy (allthough is was a very sony roster, ie mostly sports and racing orientated) but now theres a real drout. However theres also a whole handfull of games slated for "fall" release (which translates to what spring here?) so about the time PSP is actually released in aus, the games should start flowing again. Personally im thinking of picking up one for christmas, gripshift looks like a awesome title to start with.

Anyone else here looking to pick up a PSP?? There doesn't seem to be much hype for it at the moment. No subliminal Sony PS2-style TV ads, posters, movie trailers, newspaper ads, and whatnot so far, and it's getting released in 2 weeks. I wish I had one but like Moonunit said, nothing really stands out in the game library (apart from Luminous) for me. Homebrew has got me interested, but Sony seems keen to keep locking any of that stuff from happening. [:(] (wants C64 emulator action happening).

sonys launched a aussie PSP website www.yourpsp.com.au but really its everything you can expect from a official website, lots of flashy graphics and not a terrible lot of information. However it does have a release list there but who knows how reliable it is, it dosent even have twisted metal on it :S

quote:Originally posted by MoonUnit

Personally im thinking of picking up one for christmas, gripshift looks like a awesome title to start with.

Thanks for the local support :)

We should be announcing an Australasian release date for GripShift soon (there will be a trailer doing the rounds soon too).

Woowoo, I made the front page, thanks again Souri. Room is still available.

...or driving a revolution toward developer distribution rather than publishers?

i hardly get games these days, im still playing DOD in the afternoons because i simply cant afford to buy them. A price increase could stop me playing all together.

I wonder if publishers are digging their own grave with their increased prices? How much would piracy increase when the RRP rises by 20%?

The price for a new release game in NZ for xbox / ps2 can reach up to $109.95 - 119.95 as well. So I imagine that they would cop some additional heat probably pushing it up to 140 - 150 bux for a new release [:O]

I was going to post what I think about the price hike, but [url="http://www.cliffyb.com/"]Cliffy B[/url] sums up pretty much my thoughts...

quote:NO!

Videogames need to be CHEAPER! They need to get down to the $19.99 price point you fucking morons! Damn. I do decently here at my job and fifty bucks is still too much of a barrier for me to spend as an impulse buy on a game. But... twenty! Sign me up! Perhaps if we focused on figuring out ways of growing our audience and making our games more accessible we'd sell more units and finally arrive at the magical new price point instead of shooting ourselves in the damned foot by RAISING PRICES?

FOOLS!

And I agree, if there's one thing that could lead to a games industry crash, it's when games cost way too much...

In anycase, with the terrible markup of games here, it's probably cheaper to just import the darn thing yourself from America.. [:p]

Maybe it's a chance for indy games to become more mainstream :)

The industry?s based on the ability of people to spend $100 on games, but what would happen if the economy takes a turn for the worst (as many economists predict it will in the years ahead)? If people are struggling to make ends meet, less people will buy games and the high-end games industry will go into a financial tailspin. The only developers that could keep making games in those circumstances would be indie developers.

Less advancing in complexity and stunning but costly graphics, and more advancement in productivity to make games more affordable is what?s needed. The focus should be on gameplay, not endless content creation.

unfortunatly the casual gamer wants more content. at leas that's how i see it anyway. i have friends who only recenty got into games and are only casual gamers still. and what they get excited by are the latest visuals, etc. just like i used to be when i started playing games way way back when. now i want something more than pretty content, but i think a lot of the new gamers that came in with the PS and PS2 are at the stage i was back with the nes/snes when i first started playing games.

It's a cleft stick alright. I mean, look at the difference between the last couple of Prince of Persia games? One was universally acclaimed by hardcore gamers as revolutionary, beautiful, great content, etc.; the next pandered to the "more bling" market with hack-em-up/last action hero dialogue. (Try [url="http://www.edge-online.co.uk/archives/2005/02/prince_of_persi.php"]This article[/url] or the ever tactful [url="http://penny-arcade.com/news.php3?date=2004-12-04"]penny arcade[/url])

...but which one made more money for the studio, I ask?

Given that [url="http://www.lunabean.com/news/000889.php"]Warrior Within outsold Sands of Time 2:1 in only the first two weeks[/url], I think we all know what the answer to that is.

Investors want results, not art.

Games should be cheaper, shorter and more compact. Lean more towards a movie, tv time model, rather than trying to create 20hrs of entertainment for US$50. It would be better to create 5 x 4 hrs of entertainment for US$10-15 each (the price of a 1.5-2hr DVD). The biggest obstacle to this is of course the console giants (charging their flat? rate license fee) and the publishers fear.
The other major issue is producing the content 1 20 hour game, but having to make the revenue back off 5 games, instead of one. This would be a problem for games where most of the content/assets required for the game would exist in the first release, however it could also be a boon to companies that can either create the content incrementally for each episode, or can spread the content creation among a number of series. That way you can put out say, 3-4 5hr games, and only continue sequels for the ones that don't flop. If it's done right there is a lot less risk involved in each game.
Also, if you look at the sales charts, the highest selling games are sequels, to me this says "Produce a great game, then produce as many great sequels as possible". Making more sequels with shorter time frames will keep audiences in suspense over your next product, rather than 3 years between sequels.
People are starting to turn away from watching TV and playing videogames more. Give them the episodic model that TV entranced them with for so many years.

...aaand i thiink thats your lot. I don't think these are new ideas, and i think it is mainly the publisher/console manufacturers who are preventing some people from trying it. Or maybe there is some other flaw in my otherwise brilliant plan >.>
CYer, Blitz

I know I'm gonna get flamed for this but as mentioned in the GDC keynote developers and publishers need to find other sources of income, think about how a movie is funded do you really think the budget of a $200mil movie comes out of one companies pocket no they find other outlets to raise funds.
I'm all for tasteful product placement, While surfing the other day I saw a MOD for GTA that placed real adds on billboards instead of the generic "rockstar" one's.
Games like Grand Turisimo should be getting paid to include real cars, even Rage Racer featured Yokohama tire?s I didn't hear anyone complaining.
Sorry for getting a bit off topic but games has always been expensive, I remember paying up to $100 for a SNES title.
The prices have never gone up through the generations; you?re still paying $70 for a DS game.
At this stage we can only speculate, but having two competitive products will keep things in check e.g. If an Xbox2 title costs $60US, do you really think that Sony will increase their price?

Interesting topic,

Prices are on the rise, costs on all dev fronts seem to be on the rise in some way too, the problem I see is most gamers keep wanting better graphics, and more content in there games, and are never satisfied with whats offered, reguardless how impressive we as developers see it too be, and realy why should they think otherwise?

They have been trained into this thought, after a decade or more of rapidly advancing technology within the industry, developers striving to build the bigger faster prettier game each time, eventually we had to reach the limits of what the majority of developers could achieve with the money and skillsets within there company, so the only way to keep it afloat is to raise prices eh...

This is bound to continue to spiral out of control, to where a handful of developers/publishers have complete market control over everything but maybe the indie routes, and you all know what that means :P The only way to fix it is to stop winging and ranting about the situation and invest some resources into fixing it, or just go indie ;)

Ultimately the age old rules of supply and demand control the cost of a product. If they raise the cost of the product will they still make a greater profit taking into account the amount of people who will cease to purchase the product due to it being too expensive? If the answer is no then such a price rise is unsustainable and will drop again in short order. However if it is sustainable, if the market can support the increase then it is logical that they will do it.

This is how commercial enterprise works, why is anyone surprised by this. There is no ?morality? involved in the pricing of a video game. We are not making games to be handed out to your poor and homeless in soup kitchens. Games are made to make money, that is how and why they receive funding and no matter how altruistic the average game maker no matter how much they claim it isn?t the money its making games that?s important. I don?t see them taking a pay cut so that the game they are working on can be sold cheaper. So why would people and cooperate entities further up the ladder behave any differently.

Ultimately if you are truly outraged by such a price hike, for whatever reason, then to quote captain planet ?The power is yours?, boycott the products, and if enough people do then the price rise becomes unsustainable and comes back down.

Pantmonger

Some interesting points have been made, some of which are really about the greater topic of how the industry is (or is becoming) structured. Not surprisingly things seem to be following the Hollywood cinema formula of creating stunning 'blockbuster' titles that are increasingly expensive to make, and aim to pull in big dollars. Sounds like lots of people here think things should go more like the Hong Kong and Indian cinema industries - much higher volume at lower costs - an industry model that has many good points for both the final customer and industry its self.

I guess ultimately Pants is right though - if I learnt anything from Captain Planet, it is that the power is ours! the only repercussion that the price of $120 per unit in the Aust market may be required for a predetermined profit margin. If it can't be met the titles may be pulled entirely from the Aust market. Is this a problem? those of us with credit cards who can join larger markets via the internet, not really.

Maybe this would be a blessing in disguise! With no 'blockbuster' titles on shelves here retailers might look at filling the void with cheap locally made titles. The death of the old might giving birth to a new section of the industry!

Hmmmmmmmmmm? ya know.. I kinda buy a game thinking on how much I?ll be paying for it an hour.

Example wise.. Average game takes 20hours to complete. $100 so $5 for an hour of play.. I myself try to find games that achieve 40+ hours? 9/10 times though these games don?t have the best graphics but have some really nice game play to them.. (thus why you?d play it more then 20hours)

Dark chronicle is a good example. A solid game with LOTS OF DIFFERENT REWARDING THINGS TO DO. All up the game lasted 80hours.. Don?t ask how. It just did O.o $1.20 per hour of fun play.

I think we as customers are getting to demanding of games in terms of graphics (or belts and whistles however you look at it) and that demand is taking an economic toll on the industry.. Then again because that?s the one sure-fire why to please the lowest common denominator of buyers the trend wont change.. Not in the next two to four years anyway.

I wish we lived in a world where excellent game play was the focus and not the belts and whistles that have to go with it if you want to impress Joe somebody.

quote:Originally posted by Caroo

I think we as customers are getting to demanding of games in terms of graphics (or belts and whistles however you look at it) and that demand is taking an economic toll on the industry.. Then again because that?s the one sure-fire why to please the lowest common denominator of buyers the trend wont change.. Not in the next two to four years anyway.

I wish we lived in a world where excellent game play was the focus and not the belts and whistles that have to go with it if you want to impress Joe somebody.

I think that's being a little hard on the consumer. After all, why should Joe Average expect to see parallax corrected normal mapping with dynamic lighting and shadows and full scene anti-aliasing without the developer having first included it in the first place. In that respect I don't think anyone is to blame but the incredible pace of the advance of technology. As a programmer, I'm thinking, "Now that I've a few more clock cycles free, I can implement proper Fresnel light diffraction rather than use the horrible approximations I've had to put with until now."

I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting a faster computer, or wanting to make your game look as good as possible. And I think the consumer is more discerning than a lot of developers give them credit for. Personally, I won't even look at buying a game until I've read a couple of reviews or got a recommendation from a friend.

What needs to be remembered here is the power of marketing. Would Halo 2 have sold even half the number of units it did without the Microsoft marketing behemoth behind it? IMNSHO, not bloody likely. How many little gems of gaming goodness can you think of that quietly sat on the shelf constantly being overlooked for the "blockbuster" title sitting next to it?

I don't mind paying a little extra for quality. I object to paying extra for marketing hype.

Firstly I have to mention that I recently bought a copy of Rome Total War (It came with Meidval Total war + the expansion) for about $79. Now that's kept me going for about 2-3 months easy of gameplay. It doesn't have the best graphics, but it's got a tone of gameplay - if you like that sort of strategy game - and I do. :-D I'll probably be playing it for the next several months or so easy.

Secondly in response to Blitz's comment (that games should be shorter and cheaper) I have to bring back up the issue of episodic games, much like episodes of sitcoms or dramas. There have been several discussions on this topic on these forums already. Making many short games of about 3-5 hours of gameplay wouldn't be too hard since the same world could be reused for each successive game just like an episode on tv. We could use CD's again for distribution, with a single CD per episode (as opposed to the multi-CD installs that we're currently faced with). Things like steam would also make this relatively easy to implement (though I shudder in saying it).

Now imagine the first Deus Ex game in an episode format (though the original game would be like a feature film that starts the series). Then imagine having a new adventure each quarter, possible a new location to explore, new characters to encounter etc. In theory all that would be required would be a few level designers, artists, and a writer or two to construct such games (once the initial coding has been done).

But finally, I do think that the games are more expensive than they should be, especially in Australia. Realistically the prices should have dropped since the Aussie dollar has been performing better against the US dollar. Though I think part of it must be that stores have gotten people used to paying ~$100 for a game, and they're reluctant to drop their prices and make less profit.

I also agree with the quote that Souri posted, finally Cliff_B has said something intelligent.

quote:How many little gems of gaming goodness can you think of that quietly sat on the shelf constantly being overlooked for the "blockbuster" title sitting next to it?

to many.. and it's very sad indeed. its not very fair to both the cunsumers and developers who are making some awesome games that we'll never know of. i own dark cronicle.. by far one of the best PS2 games ive ever played. And over here it sold horrably.

quote:I don't mind paying a little extra for quality. I object to paying extra for marketing hype.

that i agree with.. i think no one can disagree with a statement like that. theres nothing worse then feeling like a consumer whore.

i was told that EA has a marketing deal with retailers to ensure that their products a placed on the top and center shelves at stores. i think it was the marketing head for Oceania that told me that, or someone similar. his way of telling us (a class a qantm) "if you want your game to sell, you have to get published by us"

quote:Originally posted by LiveWire

i was told that EA has a marketing deal with retailers to ensure that their products a placed on the top and center shelves at stores. i think it was the marketing head for Oceania that told me that, or someone similar. his way of telling us (a class a qantm) "if you want your game to sell, you have to get published by us"

.... is there nothing EA wont do.. there like a cheep whore mixed with godzilla.

They may be a cheap whore mixed with godzilla - and although I dont agree with alot of the recent crap about working conidtions etc - alot of the marketing I simply couldnt agree more with.

If the public wants a new Icehockey, Basketball & American Football game every year ala NHL '96 thru 2005 then give it to them. Build the foundations for a good system, and then focus on churning out new content and only updating the 'engine' for many years to come. Cha Ching Mooooooo.

Whilst I barely agree with the mentality - EA is the one with shitloads of money.

I put EA in the same category as MicroSoft ? I think it?s more marketing then software engineering prowess that put them on top. They both made some great business moves and focused on getting a large portion of the public to believe their hype, and now they almost have a monopoly. Meanwhile little known development companies could have the best software in the world but that software doesn?t make it to the light of day because they can?t compete with the marketing giants.

Can anyone else see a problem with this system?

whilst on EA (again!) ...I came across this - thought it sums up the current attitude toward them ;)
http://www.subliminaldissonance.com/eanazi3tm.gif

I'm not sure if this has any basis in fact or not, but when I was in the US, it seemed that just about EVERYTHING was cheaper... not just games. Could it be the fact that seeing as the games are made there, and thus massive import costs etc. are not a factor that they are able to keep the prices down?

hyperswivel: You're right, *almost* everything is cheaper in the US than here in Australia. Even if you count in the exchange rate things are still cheaper by 25-30%. It's probably due to the fact that we're just (less than) 20 million people, of whom only 10-12 million actually have enough money to buy things, therefore we're not a big market and thus the cost is higher to bring things here.

*(teenagers ~5 million in Aus, working population of ~9 million are the statistics I'm working from, allowing for some overlap)

Is anyone aware of the estimated price point for the next-gen consoles themselves? It's my understanding that companies lose major dollars just to get the machines in peoples homes, and it's the software that recoups this money. One wonders how much the console manufacturers reap from each game sold and how that compares to the publishers and developers slice of the pie. Anyone know?

I'm throwing a guess that consoles generally launch at around $700-$800 (PS1, PS2, Xbox)? That doesn't mean that new consoles will be introduced at that price range, but that seems to be the trend so far.

I remember reading a magazine from the old Amiga days which showed a pie chart on who received how much from each game sold. The distributor/publisher got a hefty slice, the retailer got the largest slice of them all, and the game developer got an extremely small percentage (something like 5-10%). It was quite alarming.

10% is about standard percentage for larger publishers such as EA. Also they try some other nasty tactics to try and trap you into a bad deal.

I think many developers, including the one I work for, are exploring alternative means of financing as opposed traditional to publisher funded titles. There are many reasons for this aside simple percentages. Having publishers along for the ride while developing a title can be painful in more ways than one, I'm sure other devs will agree.

If you have a title that is already developed you have a much better foothold when cutting a deal with publishers. For instance if I spend 4 million developing a game, your going to spend 6 million marketing the game if you want your 60% cut. More importantly developers can make games that they are happy to put on the shelves rather than getting pressured into releasing a title before it's ready.

wow. awsome read. there was a lot of good stuff at GDC this year, i so wanted to go but i couldnt get a passport organised in time (or find the money, which was another problem)

Bloody hell that was a good read...

I read this a week or so ago on Indie Developer, and whilst I agree, the only problem is how many are willing to put money where their mouths are and start the revolution.

I wanted to hear more from Warren Spector.. That dude went off! [B)]

Thanks for the link, I hadnt had a chance to read Brenda Laurel's rant in full.

Greg Costikyan got pretty harsh but he's more or less on the money (although as a Paranoia fan I'm biased ;D). The hard part of course is someone actually doing the work, but he had a few things to say about that on his blog - http://www.costik.com/weblog/

While I understand your looking for help, please dont spam these boards. All 5 of your posts are the same message in different sections, completely irrelevant to the topics.

Regardless, Good luck with finding the help you require.

This might sound stupid but have you thought about teaching yourself?
Many here have all started with the included tutorials of any given program.
I found the best way is to buy one of those learn studio MX books.
They have what any course would teach you and is readily available; you can even go to your local TAFE library and borrow one, to photo copy.
The main reason people join these courses isn't to learn everything about the software (that would take too long and be pointless) but to receive a certificate or diploma at the end.
Your not gonna get that from being taught by some guy.
My advice is to get a book and work through it, if you have any questions forums like Sumea and 3Dbuzz will help you out.

I myself have just started a new job using a program I'd never used before (MAYA) and the first thing I was given was a "learning MAYA" book, and was told to work through a few tutorials.

Flash is a real easy program to pick up, its interactive tutorials that it has bundled with the package are great. I used them plus a few tutorials online to learn most of my flash experience.

If your looking to get into actionscripting more, try www.flashkit.com Its a good place to get examples of implemented actionscript and figure out how its all put together. They also have alot of tutorials there too.

Mmmmmm another step closer to my dreams when I was about 9 years old. I'm on the edge of my seat [:D]

"Keep in mind that all of this information is based off of alpha development kits and current projections for the final hardware"

none the less it sounds like a feakin' beast!

SO..... The first XBox had allot of stuff in it and is the size of a coffee table. This one has more than twice as much; does that mean it's going to be the size of a single bed?

hope it looks like a big shiny X like the first one was supose too [xx(]

man... if you could use the Xbox as a bed base and then just throw your matress and sheets n stuff over it, sif you wouldnt :P

in all serious though i think microsoft got the size bashing the first time around, im willing to bet its a lot smaller

I need a cigarette now.....

not quite xbox stuff, but i read an article on ibm and sony's cell processor (the ps3 is going to have 3, i think) in a science mag and it looks quite interesting. im no computer whiz but it seems that it is quite revolutionary in terms of engineering, and there is talk that it may give amd and intel a run for there money once it reaches the pc market or possibly through apple. it should be interesting to see what its like in the ps3 though as it is particularly suited multimedia tasks.

Sony promises it'll be [url="http://gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7352"]easy to develop for[/url] though [:D]

In other news, it looks like Nintendo Revolution will be [url="http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/36085"]backwards compatible with Gamecube games[/url], which is a good thing. Plus it'll have wi-fi capabilities. Will be interesting to see what Nintendo have up their sleaves.

" I think it's actually 9. Sony promises it'll be easy to develop for though "

Mmm just like the PS2 [:P]

Sounds good... but I've got a few problems with some of the specs etc.

quote:
# CPU - Xenon's CPU has three 3.0 GHz PowerPC cores. Each core is capable of two instructions per cycle and has an L1 cache with 32 KB for data and 32 KB for instructions. The three cores share 1 MB of L2 cache. Alpha 2 developer kits currently have two cores instead of three.

Hokay, judging by the fact that the alpha kit has 2 processors, and the final is slated to have 3, it implies that it will internally control processor scaling (e.g. evenly distribute threads across processors). I'm intreguied to see their system of controlling this - whether it's the simple case of "we've got lots of power, so we can just distribute as we please", or whether it's something more advanced (e.g. the ability to run physics calcs on one CPU etc).

quote:
# GPU - Xenon's GPU is a generation beyond the ATI X800. Its clock speed is 500 MHz and it supports Shader 3.0. Developers are currently working with an alpha 2 GPU. Beta GPU units are expected by May and the final GPU is slated for a summer release. The final GPU will be more powerful than anything on the market today; in game terms, it would handle a game like Half-Life 2 with ease.

See end rant.

quote:
# Memory Units - Xenon will use 64 MB to 1,024 MB memory cards. 8 MB is reserved for system use, leaving a 56 MB to 1,016 MB for user data.

Sounds like Microsoft are again going down the path of using specialised memory cards. Such a large variation means we're likely to see some games requring a minimum of xxxMb to play (similar to some games on the GameCube requiring the 251 block memory card). At least if they utilised USB-based flash disks, people would be able to afford large-sized cards.

quote:
# Hard Drive - As many have speculated, Xenon's hard drive is optional. 2 GB of the drive will be used as game cache. The final drive size is still being determined.

Optional? So what happens, with regards to cache, when you don't have one of these? Slow access times as it has to continually spin-up the DVD drive? Surely if it's being used for something like cache it would be mandatory.

The thing that gets me most is the "if we make it powerful enough, games will be awesome" philosophy. For the moment I'll forget the actual game-design element, and concentrate on the nuts-and-bolts aspect of game engines.

Even now, having been out for many, many months (not sure on the exact timeframe, so I wont quote figures), Shader 2.0 hasn't reached its full potential. There aren't really any game engines out (yet!) that truely revolve around completely programmable graphics pipelines (Doom 3 and Half Life 2 still have fallback to GeForce 4 hardware, and as a result, have compromises). Many tricks are still yet-to-be discovered, and a lot are still in the research-paper stage.

Yet, we're about to have a system n-times more powerful thrown into the market - multiple systems in fact. Photorealism is the dream, but it will be interesting to see how long it will take before we're truely close.

I guess that with having systems with those levels of processing power, the software development emphesis won't be on efficiency, just trying to get-the-code-done. I'm just trying to compare development times of great engines like Doom3 and HL2, to the time developers are going to have to release products on these new platforms.

With the power available, and the changed design goals (hell, why not go for photorealism finally?), I don't believe it's a simple case of "scaling up" current engines.

Which brings me to another point - and that is game media. One of the main elements that made HL2 so great, was the excellent game media (textures, sounds, models). The more realistic we try to make these games, the more difficult it is to provide this information. Consider 1024x1024 textures for most surfaces that are specular mapped, horizon mapped, glossiness mapped etc - how long will it take to actually produce and collate all this data. Then, they've got to be put into a useful form (i.e. levels).

I'm not trying to be a Doom-sayer (no pun intended), but it seems like now, more than ever, we need to draw a line in the sand to let the software catch up to the hardware. At least, for the sake of software development for these consoles, one does not have to worry about backwards-compatibility, which makes life a little easier.

And to end, I'll be interested to see when user-interaction systems are developed to even a tenth of what the grapihcs/processing industry has. At the end of the day, it's all well and good to have a game which looks and acts realistic, but if you're still inputting to it via a stick on a pad, it dulls it significantly.

Just my 2c (which probably makes no sense - it's been a long day).
- Tim

There's some surprising (or perhaps not so surprising) news on the format of games on the Xbox 360. You could say the Xbox 360 is paying the price for jumping the gun a bit early and not having the chance to use a HD format at launch, and that it'll be making some serious limitations on the kind games expected for the Xbox 360.

[url="http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=12661"]Xbox 360 games will never use HD-DVD[/url]

Considering that Microsoft wants developers to make games for high defination TV, therefore requiring higher resolution textures and movie files, does anyone think that this was a huge lack of forsight by Microsoft? Games spanning multiple DVD discs on the Xbox 360? Not good. [:0]

Perhaps it might be wise not to get too excited, wait and see. I've heard some rumours that they ran out of die space for this multicore CPU, and that in addition to sharing cache they share registers, which means massive stalls with multiple threads.

If its true, far from being 3 CPUs it's likely to be much more like 1 in terms of performance: for the non-programmers registers are really, really fast memory where the most commonly used variables are stored. Sharing them between multiple cores means each core will often have to wait for registers to become free, or use slower memory.

People are saying wait until the second generation of games to see something more representative of the capabilities of the machine, and I agree.

[url="http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=27359"]Why the Xbox 360 has three cores[/url] (according to The Inquirer)

quote: It seems that flat out, the graphics pipeline takes two cores, both threads from each, to 'fill'.

If you code things right, that will leave you with a single core for the 'game' parts, basically everything but graphics. According to another MS person, a single core is more than sufficient to make a great game, and you have effectively double that if you are exploiting every last drop of GPU capability.

I've read elsewhere that this doesn't really make any sense, so take it with a pinch of salt. [;)]

I remember attending a talk from a Euro PS2 optimiser at AGDC ('02 or '03) where he mentioned that only the 3rd or so generation games started using the PS2 to its capacity. Previous games just woefully under-used the PS2's available hardware.

Now if that's the case then I think it might even take more than 3-4 generations of games to get decent usage of the XBox 360's hardware. The only way we'll get to see decent usage of the resources for games within the first few generations is if some company creates an engine that is near optimal and other companies actually buy it. Though I would imagine that creating such an engine would take about two years in itself.

Personally I think I'll just get a PS2 now and some fun games to muck around with occasionally.

Ah, interesting. [url="http://www.xbox-scene.com/xbox1data/sep/EEFyukAFAZgurkTXZB.php"]External HD-DVD drive coming for the Xbox 360[/url]...

quote:Xbox 360 Leads the Way in High-Definition Entertainment

Just a month after the global launch of the new Xbox 360 video game and entertainment system, Gates discussed the product?s strong momentum in delivering high-definition hardware, games and digital entertainment experiences. Xbox 360 is on track to be the fastest-selling video game console ever, forecast to ship between 4.5 million and 5.5 million units worldwide by the end of June 2006.
Gates noted that Xbox 360 has also become a powerful application for high-definition television, adding that nine out of 10 Xbox 360 owners currently own or intend to purchase a high-definition television set.* He announced that more than 50 new high-definition Xbox 360? games will be available by June 2006.
Building on Xbox 360 leadership in high-definition experiences, the company announced plans to deliver a new Xbox 360 external HD DVD drive in 2006. The new drive will offer millions of Xbox 360 owners the ability to easily enjoy HD DVD movies and will provide consumers with even more choices for experiencing high-definition content, in either physical or digital form.
Using Xbox 360 and the Xbox Live? service today, consumers are already able to access high-definition entertainment such as Xbox Live Arcade titles, game demos and high-definition movie trailers. Consumers can also use their Xbox 360 system to access high-definition television and movies from their Windows XP-based Media Center PC.

Gates? keynote also showcased the momentum behind Xbox Live, announcing that more than half of all Xbox 360 owners are already connected to the online games and entertainment service, which boasts a worldwide community of more than 2 million members. He demonstrated Electronic Arts Inc.?s forthcoming EA SPORTS? ?Fight Night Round 3,? scheduled to be available in February 2006, and announced that a free, playable high-definition demo of the game is now available at the Xbox Live Marketplace, a one-stop digital download center where consumers can access high-definition games, music and movie content from leading industry partners
[url="http://www.microsoft.com/events/executives/billgates.mspx"]CES 2005 opening presentation with Bill Gates[/url].

quote:Originally posted by Souri

Sony promises it'll be [url="http://gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=7352"]easy to develop for[/url] though [:D]

After having developed for ps3 this makes me cry [:(]

lol yeah. Ps2 is a pain to develop for but I think that we will all still run out of memory really fast on NextGen!

yeah it sounds like they have a lot until you realise you have to cater for HD res

I was thinking about the possibility of these things ages ago. They would be quite cool in that its going to give you a much more realistic, interactive environment. I'd definately love to see proper fluid simulation. I can see this card being used for two purposes. To add pretty extra effects to games, and to really improve the gameplay in others. The first will not necessarily require the card to play, as its just improving the immersion of the world. The second is definately going to need a card, otherwise there would be too much trouble trying to implement both a hardware and software side of the physics. If the card is going to be relatively inexpensive ~150 then I think it could take off quite well.

Another option would be to integrate it into new motherboard chipsets.

I can also see this one being used heavily in later gen consoles.

Time will tell...

Slashdot has a [url="http://slashdot.org/articles/05/03/08/1827239.shtml?tid=137"]news story on it[/url]. It sounds like the beginning of something really good! Just hoping game developers use the potential of this to make better games rather than trivial stuff!

On the downside - it's another card to upgrade [:(]

I question the point of it actually: if the Cell lives up to the hype and a single one delivers 256 gigaflops (that's 256 000 000 000 calculations per second involving numbers with decimal points for you non-programmer types), and people are using 4 of them in a single machine (a terraflop) then there is PLENTY of horsepower for quite a while.

An athlon-xp 2500 does around 2 1/2 gigaflops btw.

I'll be much more enthusiastic about this chip when I find out if it is programmable, how easy it is to program, whether or not it is possible to program it without signing an Evil NDA and similar considerations.

Something that pissed me off straight away was some marketing linked to from slashdot where it talked about "completing the triangle: CPU->GPU->PPU". They've forgotten about the need for an APU (audio processing unit), and anyone that calls the chips on mobos APUs hasn't looked at them properly. Even the chips on Creative's Audigy 2s are really crap compared to what's happening in the GPU and CPU worlds.

Something that I'd be interested in playing with on this PPU is using it for physical modelling audio synthesis.

I remember Maitrek & Co talking about something like this a long long time ago, I think they also mentioned something about a dedicated 3d graphics card even before 3DFx.

But yeah, any decent SIMD processor now a days, including MIMD and Multicore systems would be able to do physics easier anyways.

I still think that the games industry needs to hold up a bit and wait for the content development people and tools to catch up to where technology has gotten to. I hate seeing incredibly detailed but short games. I think that better development tools and pipelines need to be created and invented for that to occur.

I'm with Daemin on the pipelines & tools development notion.

Lorien : Good call on the Audio side of things, although strangely enough in the paper a couple weeks back I did read a review of a new soundcard up in the $800 - $900 price bracket with extremely impressive signal to noise ratios & other bits and pieces.

[begin off topic audio freak rant]
It's not S/N ratio, it's the whole idea of simply playing back samples with some very fake 3d positioning algorithms and a bit of listener position dependent reverb slapped on.

Samples are like sprites (a sample is simply an audio bitmap), and as long as they are used game audio is going to continue to suck.

I suspect the only way the audio people are going to get the required cycles for doing realtime synthesis (when they have to compete with AI and physics) is to have a dedicated APU.

Creative really don't help things at all: not only do they buy out and close down anyone with better tech, but they have crazy conditions on using the EAX SDKs past version 2, eg people aren't allowed to discuss anything technical about EAX 3 or 4 as a condition of using the SDK. At the same time they love saying "EAX is an open standard".

EAX is a dodgy hack: it's impossible to do a decent acoustic environment simulation with simple reverbs and filters. What is needed is wave-propagation or wave-tracing where the level geometry and material descriptions are sent to the soundcard which calculates how the sound waves bounce around.

EAX material presets are just filter characteristics (tone control parameters), and EAX has no geometry support: you are supposed to use collision detection to figure out how to muffle sounds.

IMHO it's the worst designed system I've ever seen.

Added to this their cards only do 64 3d voices, when for decent realism you really need 512.

Ever wondered why soundcards don't have onboard RAM or huge heatsinks like graphics cards? It's not because they don't need it to do the job properly, it's that game audio is still in the dark ages, when there is no need for it to be. What's more, studios and publishers either don't realise or don't care.

Brett Patterson (the main fmod guy) agrees with me whole heartedly btw. That's one of the reasons firelight are putting some basic synthesis and geometry in the software side of fmod 4.

In short currently game audio hardware is so bad it makes more sense to use software. Or do audio processing on a GPU.

[end off topic audio freak rant]

It seems a little strange to me personally, especially with the hardware industry apparently moving towards multi processor systems. The big examples at the moment being the PS3 with it's Cell architecture and the XBox 2 which will apparently have 3 CPUs all faster than my current PC.

Is it worth continuing to confuse developers with more and more hardware standards or should we be looking to see how we can best utilise the extra general processing power being made available?

disclaimer : I did Electronic Engineering at uni, so I have torn out my hair on audio and image signal processing algorithms for many a sleepless night...

I would have thought that by it's very nature, true audio occlusion and propogation calculations would be more complex than graphics calculations by a factor of O(N) : O(N^4) at best. Light at least propogates roughly linearly and instantaneously, while soundwaves propogate spherically and with measurable time delay. Add to this the possibility of multipath effects and you're talking about an almost astronomically complex multivariate problem to solve in realtime. My brain's bleeding just thinking about it.

Now, I can certainly see that there's the possibility for static precomputation of audio propogation, but using that in-game would actually only require large numbers of voices with plein-air 3d modelling... However this would be like exporting all the BSP and collision detection logic to the GPU...

Add to this that when a large chunk of your gamers are happy to use any old headphones they find lying around, while most of the rest have the low-range turned way up high for kickarse bass, there'll be quite a struggle to get a real commercial driver for "true" audio hardware.

The secret to realtime audio propogation indedependent of the number of voices is to use cellular automata. An honours student at La Trobe did it last semester. It's still very processor intensive, but easily made parrallel (he's used some of my SIMD code already).

Also Aureal's A3d featured simple wave tracing in hardware. You did send low poly geometry to the soundcard.

I think the expectations in listening devices (speakers/headphones) is improving, that's why Creative went 24-bit linear PCM and Intel are hyping 32-bit for future systems. Also the sampling rates are already up to 192 kHz on Audigy 2 cards.

I think increasing bit-depth and sampling rate is the Wrong Way (tm) to improve game audio: the biggest change will come from using synthesis rather than simple sample playback.

And I warned that I'm an audio freak [:D]

[url="http://science.slashdot.org/science/05/03/15/0124218.shtml?tid=152&tid=…"]3D Raytracing Chip Shown at CeBIT[/url] [:0]

so to speculate about realtime dynamic audio, and not using samples anymore:
Is that to say, I could create cymbol, define its material properties... then the cymbol would either 'ping' or really 'crasH!!' depending on how hard the cymbol is hit in game? And, this sound would vary depending on the defintion of the stricking object? (wood, metal, felt)

...and a stereo in a room, say, would be muffled in real-time as the door opened/closed?

similar to the way physics have been introduced to realtime games... where initially breaking walls were pre-animated sequences and you could maybe 'slide' a crate around - whereas now objects react naturally in a scene.

Perhaps this could spawn a seperate thread in the programmers section discussing the best way to implement a really good audio system?

urgrund, you've just described "physical modelling synthesis", which is what many, many synthesisers do these days.

There are many other ways to synthesise audio that aren't quite as cool, but much less CPU intensive.

There are also programming languages specifically for synthesising audio like CSound http://www.csounds.com/ , JMax http://freesoftware.ircam.fr/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=14 , Supercollider http://www.audiosynth.com/ and loads more, and the field is far more developed than using computers for graphics- Max Matthews wrote the first audio synthesis language (Music 1) in the late 1950's and research has been going on ever since.

And yes, if people want to talk more imho it should be in the programmers section.

Why don't we have hardware synthesized sound in games?
1) Current methods are "good enough"
2) Content creation for synthesized sound is going much more time consuming. This will most likely change over time as the model becomes more real, but initially I expect this to be too complex to be viable in games.

Why don't we have hardware synthesized sound in games?

That sort of attitude is a big reason... No offence, but have you really looked into it? And so what if the conent creation takes longer, making a game with the inverse kinematic characters takes longer too.

Current methods are not "good enough", they are completely lame (don't just take my word for it, ask anyone who has really studied digital audio). This push for "cinematic" games has mostly forgotten cinematic sound and music.

Synthesis in games would take a different kind of sound designer, mostly the people who use these custom synthesis languages are classically trained composers, not audio engineers.

I bet no one on sumea plays games much with the sound turned off...

Better make this clear: I've been synthesising audio since I was 11 years old (and I'm 32 now).

i like games that stream in their loading. as pretty as some of the newer games look it's a pain in the arse waiting half an hour for them to load.

The visual scripting stuff sounds fantastic - but I'm always skeptical of tools that claim to simply programming immensely. They always need to hide huge numbers of details from you - and especially where performance is involved this just moves the problems from the development phase to the testing and debugging phase.

Joel Spolsky describes it as[url="http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/LeakyAbstractions.html"]The law of Leaky Abstractions[/url], one of the most succinct explanations I've ever read.

I find truly visual programming environments (like JMax http://freesoftware.ircam.fr/rubrique.php3?id_rubrique=14) more frustrating than productive. I've just spend so long coding... Loads and loads of musicians really love them though.

I think the point of scripting in games is to give more expressive power to the people who need it eg designers and sound designers, and tools to make programming easier for content creators are likely to lead to better games.

That said there is a line to be drawn between what gets done by professional programmers and what gets done by others, and imho a large part of this line is determined by performance requirements.

This is actually one of the core points in my masters thesis.

Visual scripting in Unreal Engine 3 seems to be for setting up gametypes and shaders etc, stuff that should be handled by artists and designers anyway. You programmers get to concentrate on AI and other nasty heavy programmer stuff. [;)]

[url="http://www.1up.com/do/download?cId=3138759"]Some movies of UE3 at work from the GDC[/url].. pretty impressive stuff.

I would say those first things with the characters, texture and lighting that were show about a year ago were impressive...but this is just mind blowing stuff! when this comes around i might actually give Unreal a chance....and I cant wait to see what else will be made with this engine either...

Scorcho : Neverwinter Nights 2 Maybe [:P] *hopes*

HazarD: I was actually thinking with that whole city shot...along the lines of Elder Scrolls V :)
But yeah with this kind of power i can just imagine how much detail could go into games like neverwinter nights.

thats looking really neat, itll be great to see where developers take that. ive actually got my fingers crossed for a platform game with clever puzzles of some kind after seing that demo video of the series of physics demonstrations that ended with the car explosion.

Hey, check this out..
quote:
COLUMBIA, SC ? Interactive Data Visualization (IDV) today announced that SpeedTreeRT?, its hardware independent foliage solution, has been integrated with Epic Games? Unreal? Engine 3. Unreal Engine licensees will now have access to SpeedTreeRT?s advanced content creation options, enabling them to quickly and efficiently populate game environments with highly detailed trees and foliage.

SpeedTreeRT delivers low-polygon, highly realistic trees and plants, with adjustable wind effects, seamless LOD transitions, and a library of hundreds of tree models from more than 100 species. SpeedTreeRT also includes SpeedTree CAD, which will enable Unreal Engine licensees to create and edit animated trees in real-time.

SpeedTree technology has also been integrated into the Unreal Engine?s decolayers, so forests can be painted directly onto the terrain, eliminating the need to place trees individually. Although the trees appear at unprecedented detail, thanks to the efficiency of the SpeedTree technology, any foliage will have a minimum impact on frame rates.

[url="http://www.idvinc.com/html/image_browser/UE3_images.htm"]Here's their website[/url]. You definately know it's a sign that times are a-becoming-quite-different when there are companies out there doing middleware for trees! (And they look great, btw)

i've seen a bit of that speedtree thing and it sounds pretty damn good. bethesda are using it in elder scrolls 4 and thei're forrests look amazing. that's awsome news that it comes with UE3!

Here are some new pics/magazine scans of the next Unreal Tournament game which is using the Unreal Engine 3.

http://i136.exs.cx/img136/8277/ut11qd.jpg
http://img195.exs.cx/img195/7864/ut27fi.jpg
http://img121.exs.cx/img121/6959/ut36eg.jpg
http://img121.exs.cx/img121/7223/ut46jy.jpg
http://img211.exs.cx/img211/7170/ut58zw.jpg
http://img103.exs.cx/img103/4605/ut62my.jpg
http://img218.exs.cx/img218/2628/ut76wp.jpg
http://img211.exs.cx/img211/8189/utstats2zf.jpg

wows, cant imagine a massive frag match running with that kinda detail! but hell id like to see it happen :D

PHWOOARRR! man I cant wait to start building some content for that engine.....

Just to be sure you're asking how to connect them up to the computer physically right?

If your LCD supports DVI, connect it to the DVI port, and your CRT to the d-sub. Otherwise you will need to connect both LCD and CRT through d-sub. You'll need to get a DVI to d-sub adaptor if it didn't already come with your card, so that you will end up with two d-sub ports on the back of your 9600XT.

it takes me a while to figure it out too when setting mine up with my 9700 (during the short moments when i have 2 monitors to hook up). most of the fiddeling is in the display properties. i'm sure there's a seeting in there to say 'extend desktop to other screen' or something. i still cant figure out how to watch video in ful screen on the second screen though.

woot woot woot!!!!
i got it working, thanks a million and one clod.
[img]http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/attached/MoonUnit/2005351443_Dualscreen.j…]

interestingly enough my LCD does support DVI and i did attempt to connect it soley by its DVI connection but it only diplayed the windows start up images (like the XP logo with the loading bar) and tinted purple. My card did come with the adaptor so i discarded the DVI and now both monitors are connected by d-sub. I shoulda come here first isntead of messing around with ATI customer service :P

thanks again, now... onto modelling with my fancy new setup ey?

here's a tip: if you drag the toolbar in max over to the second monitor (which is a stupid idea cos it then takes ages to move the mouse over to it anyway) make sure you drag it back again before you get rid of your dual screen set up. if you dont, as i found out the hard way, when you load max the toolbar will not be present and you have to re-load the UI setting everytime you start up max! garh! (it's all fixed now though so dont worry people).

OH! I spot an AGDC squishy ball! did you go around nicking all the freebees too?

heh heh yeah thats the speechworks ball, me and cam went on a freebees hunt one session when we had nothing better to do :P
10 points to the first person who can tell me the name of the movie character who appears twice in that photo (thats right i got two toy thingys, im a merch whore)
and no worries livewire... i use maya :P

C'mon Moonunit...We know why you really wanted the dual screen set up!

DOUBLE THE HOFF!!

[img]http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/attached/souri/2005359202_HOFF.jpg[/img]

Souri, the fact alone that you had those two pictures to comp onto moony's photo to start with scares me enough, then there's just how scarey the pictures are... he HAS to be wearing a chest-wig of some description... and let's just not talk about the one on the left.

youd think id have learnt after last time.... and you still did it even after the free advertising in my photo :P

allthough that does bring up a point, anyone know a program that will allow me to have two seperate desktop background for each seperate monitor?

With an Nvidia card all you need do is download Nview and set it up through there, I would assume that ATI would have something similar you can download/install to enable seperate backgrounds.

thats quite possibly that horrible catalyst thing that intsalled itself and i had to uninstall to get the whole thing working

Souri : ROFL [:)] it seems inglis's spirit lives on amongst us.

Moony : Nice setup dude [:)] but loose the hoff desktops [:P] Cant help with the dual background - we run NView like Wiz mentioned, which is for nvidia based cards.

OMFG!! What is he doing to those poor dogs!!

hahah everyone i know has that atari sticker on their box.

HOFF HOFF HOFF!!

LMAO Souri [:p] Those poor poor dogs...

I have like 5 of those atari stickers :D I thiink they are covering some card in my wallet with all my 'usefull info' on it [:)]

found a good program basicaly for anyone with dual screen (whatever your card): http://www.realtimesoft.com/ultramon/ for whoevers interested

the gamecube has an external power supply, so you can easily buy a more suitable one. The only problem would be if your TV doesn't support NTSC.

Have a look at http://www.burn.com.au

You could just grab an action replay disk which allows you play PAL / NTSC games. Its legal, but means youll have to do your games shopping online unless you live near a "burn" store.

I'm not sure what you mean by "replay disk" and "burn store". [?]

Action replay is a product designed primarily for cheating on games. A quick google found me this page: [url]http://www.planetgamecube.com/hardware.cfm?action=profile&id=125[/url]

As palantir graciously found the link - you can use the freeloader / action replay disk to load up other regions games. Burn is the name of the store thats near my house - they stock this cd. It would be alot cheaper alternative to importing a gamecube just for the sake of playing different regions titles.

I moved here from the USA and brought my GameCube, I just slapped a step down transformer on the power supply, I have a multisystem TV and it works without any problems what so ever. plus i have access to like 10x more games :)

Thanx a lot everyone. At least now I know more about the options =)

Here is a link to Freeloader from DVD Boxoffice

http://www.dvdboxoffice.com/start.asp?class=gme&path=gme&id=CDD0412C-40…

I bought mine from them last year and had no troubles (PAL system). Their games are quite cheap, free postage. All good :)

how long before the first Today Tonight link I wonder? [:)]

(not a joke, but I wish it was)

Thank god I don't live in Macquarie Fields... :/

Thank god I don't live in Sydney anymore [:)] After living in Enmore and Marrickville and getting woken up every morning by my neighbors projectile vomiting after shooting themselves full of heroin even Canberra was a nice change. Only for the first few months though.

I've lived all over Sydney, not just those particular shitholes.

Dang!!

Ill be relaxing on the NSW coastline - im not due back until the 9th - looks like I miss out on this one [:(]
Keep us posted on all the fandangled nights that pop up at QANTM would you man ?

No problem, When it comes across my desk I'll let everyone know whats happening.. Whats up and whats not :D

Haha, I wish i was taking a holiday to NSW, or Melbourne.. Tis a good excuse! I hope to see you at the next one.

Just remember guys / Gals, this is an open invite to anyone, well anyone who RSVP's..

Heh, thats pretty neato. I couldn't 'vunderstand va man berry vell' but for what I could make out it does look cool :)

I'm not getting a vid and that site sure seems to collect porn links...

Here is what one of my old friends (Rod Berry) has been up to in augmented reality http://www.csl.sony.co.jp/~poup/research/agroove/

You have to save the video, not just try to view it. And it is quite different to that Augmented groove. Things have advanced quite a bit since 2000 and it is actually merging realtime 3d into realtime video.

And Rod has been merging realtime 3d into realtime video for quite a while. I was a consultant. He calls it "playing peek-a-boo with reality" :)

His proper homepage is http://www.mic.atr.co.jp/~rodney/ though some of his links are broken now.

I did try saying it btw. I'll try again