Game Engine

im up for it, tell you what, give me some content (ie. we need a character whos a enemy alien from the planey quock or something) and ill do some sketches and you can tell me if you like em or not.

good luck in your endeavour man :) hope you find the people your looking for and everything works out for you [:)]

I could be your concept artist but im only 15. Im almost 16 in a few months but im not sure if i would be of much help... my scanner isnt exactly great but it gets the job done. I really need to scan some of work in for my profile [;)].

If you are interested feel free to email me by using the little email icon above this post. (Sorry im having trouble keeping spam to a minimum!).

NOTE: My work would have to be submitted via email as i am not in your area.

mate, age is nothing [wouldn't believe what i got up to at 16 -- amazing what you can do with enough styrofoam]. so long as your dedicated, have your head on strait, and of course any good; you've got damn fine chance.

styrofoam,... and gasoline ? [;)]

*gives haz the seekrut hand shake[;)]

LOLOLO mee too - oh many snails and all manner or small insect like things suffered at the expense of my youth. those poor poor creatures...

anyways... sorry to get off topic here... but the insects deserved a mention... i will go as far as to offer a moment of silence in rememberance for them, they gave there lives to further my devious crafts.. .......... .......... ...... ok thats all they get from me.

nah we'd make so much of the stuff - we'd light up the local quarry for parties or more often than not just for the sake of lighting up a big ol' quarry.

anyhoo.. i still need some exp'd code monkeys and 3D artists..

I would like to take this time to say that by inhaling the fumes from burning styrofoam or plastic you lose a lot of sperm [:p].

I've never gotten around too trying petrol putty bombs etc... as the kids at school call it. I think i'll stick to good old firecrackers more then anything. Damn i love the shot ones when they have like eight shots [:p].

As for the mod im sure i would be able to cough up hosting from somewhere like Planethalflife.com besides the fact its plaqued by advertisements for GameSpy [;)].

eazy tigah..

this is a VERY ambitious mod, it will be quite some time until we need public hosting of any sort. we aren't like other hl2 mods that have jumped the gate -- were quietly sitting down playing with the code (sif you don't have the SDK either :P ) and models. when we have an alpha that's fairly flawless we'll start pimping.

for now we need progs and artists..

Sorry! Just me jumping ahead of things [;)]. Usually happens when i get excited.

I'll be your artist [:)]. Just wondering, this is purely going to be a single player mod right? As game developers have recently being saying they are sick of Multi-player mods and rarely any single player ones, if you want experience in the games industry do a single player mod according to them [:p].

PS: Check your email fiasco [:p], just some example work that is kind of old.

quote:I would like to take this time to say that by inhaling the fumes from burning styrofoam or plastic you lose a lot of sperm

It can't be that exciting.

Scott.

To some people it is [;)].

/me still awaits his approval of his example image sent too fiasco [:)].

I got dibs on Lead Artist, that way if i get into the industry i can say i was the lead artist on a mod.

PS: Can i get a copy of the design document to read over please?

Sounds like an interesting project. Keep us updated! The mod scene in Australia/NZ is by no means that large, but it would be cool to have a list of projects/mods happening locally, very much like the developer/independant developers list on Sumea..

tbag: "I got dibs on Lead Artist, that way if i get into the industry i can say i was the lead artist on a mod."

erm whilst a obvious motive its probably not the best reason to get involved in a mod/indy project. You have to have commitment and desire and such, if your doing it simply so you can say you were a part of one, that dosent seem very respectfull to the people who set up the mod/indy project. But thats just my view.

[:p] Its just me being stupid, i dont really care what role i am. It would just be an interesting, fun (Hopefully!) experience [;)].

er.. t [can i call ya t? [^] ] we already have a fine lead artist.

now what's all this dev business mate? this is an amateur project, that means that above all its a work of luv. not too say we haven't assessed certain possibilities and made the project flexible enough to deal with them; we all have pipe dreams -- the best way to achieve your dream is to wake up and get crackin'.

Souri - we'll do, dev journals are always fun ([xx(])

Moon - you should mail me.

email sent from a hotmail address with topic line "concerning FPS project"

T is fine [:p].

No my role is taken! Nah, im fine! [:p]

I think i could keep a private developer log thing easily if that helps [:p].

Is this a single player or multi player mod? I'm looking for a singleplayer project at the moment, not too keen on multiplayer.

for the sake of getting something out there within reasonable time we are looking at multiplayer first (it aint any fun looking at code and a bad alpha for 19 months [|)]).

HOWEVER! each aspect -- from fiction to in game functions has been prudently balanced and revised to enable a clean conversion to single player should the team decide to commit or should we receive the kind of offer you cant refuse.

To put it bluntly, for now this is a multiplayer project -- one whos key concept is "suspense of disbelief". Should we get some support or backing, we will definatly persue a singleplayer version.

[soz 'bout being long winded, still in work mode]

Im going to be away on holidays (Of course) so if i can get a copy of the design document that would be great. Then i can read over it and learn from it etc... on holidays [:p].

NOTE: I dont think i will have internet access on holidays so we will have to rely on trust, or these forums [;)].

er.. no

check your mail t. then get back to me.

Im checking!

PS: Do you have MSN or ICQ?

take it easy t youll do yourself an injury.

your not on the team yet, and snapping at my heels isnt helping. now Limm or i gave you some work to do, we'll see whats happens from there.

did you have your breakfast today tbag?

[img]http://www.uweb.ucsb.edu/~veggetto/ritalin-os.jpg[/img]

(sorry for the OT post)

Nice post inglis [:p]

tbad, it sounds to me like you'd do anything. That's not good, because employers will then offer you the lowest-paid $hitkicker job they can and you'd jump on the change ASAP.

Tone down the responses. It's good to have energy but that's over-doing it alittle. [8D]

LOL.... thats classic inglis....

be sure to keep us all updated with yor project morphine :D

Which project? Edge of Valor?

I haven't started work on anything yet. Still speaking to urgrund about it, showing my work to him and stuff.

Apart from that, that's really all the projects for me. Still working on my CS map though :)

oh whoops... :( sorry man im not with it... in fact,.. i think its cos i ate some of those ritalin'o's up the page there... inglis managed to impulse me into buying some...

F'ROLF

"I EAT THEM WITH BANANAS!"

bahahahahahaahahihihihehehe..eh..ah..ooh...pffftHAHAHAHAHEHEHIHAHAHIHE..and so forth.

s'ok t, stay cool and keep on goin'

How many guys form your arenabattles crew are you still in contact with morphine ? i wouldnt mind catching up with Motze....

BTW its a long hard road, its always good to start off with, but a few months with 0 results and team members start slackening [:D], dont let mean ol me dampen your spirits tho man, go for gold [:D]

tis just bloody hard to find really good help thats going to stick to it till the end.

in saying all of this, could i ask what genre of games youd like to be involved with making most ??

I'm interested and recently moved to Brisbane to look for work... but whats your plan, are you looking to get a small business loan and pay people or are you looking for people just to volunteer?

Not sure at the moment. Just seeing if there is enough interest out there to start one. If there isn't, well there won't be one.

Genres: I'm pretty open to anything. I was really annoyed when Lucas Arts canned the Sam & Max Sequel. I don't think that there is any good strategy game out there at the moment. I enjoyed Monkey Island 4. Should be more of these types out there. Heaps of fun and great for working the ol' noggin (7th hour? and 11th hour springs to mind) [8D].

Hmmm morhpine im sure youll know me if i saw you - i was the guy that always wore the trenchcoat that went all the way to the ground - and massive calf high leather boots with buckles and shit up the sides. not the goth guy tho,..

anyways i wouldnt mind meeting up with you one day see if we cant bounce some ideas off each other... send me an email with your msn or mobile number man and we should meet up at some stage...i wont release my secrets here ..... yet :D

matias id also like to meet up with you man - i see massive potential in your art........

yeah I'd like that HazarD, it would be cool to get an idea of whats going on.

Id be really interested Morphine, but it would have to serious, I know it sounds a bit arrogant coming from a guy with no game dev experience but I am looking for paid employment, I gots me bills to pay!(like everyone else I suppose[:p]). Either way I'd like to meet up some time. I did a small business course(a semester) a uni and am not a businessman(by any stretch of the imagination) but it was putting together a businessplan to show to a bank to get a loan, or get a gov grant(smaller) I can say it was hard work so I wouldn't think it would get easier for real life[:)] I dont want to sound negetive, because I am keen, but cautious!

Matias - what genre of games are you keen in working on ?

Well, I am a fan of rpgs but thats just when I'm playing, I would be open to work on just about anything, I have to admit tho I not a big sports game fan...
I swing both ways when it comes to sci-fantasy![;)]

jeez guys..

/chucks in his 2c

putting a dev company together is a huge undertaking -- especially financially. hardware and lease aside your still looking at a multi-million dollar enterprise.

i don't want to be the ominous voice of reason, but guys, you should think about developing a part-time demo and then try to draw some interest, which will be equally difficult to be sure.

fiaz.

fiasco - im completely aware of the undertakings of putting something together, what gave you an impression that i didnt or dont. im pretty sure every user on this forum has heard every horror story there is about starting something up, and im sure the original post by morphine wasnt placed here based just of a whim or fantasy of HOPING something might fall into place.

http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1545
Here's a link to a thread Barry Dahlberg did about starting new companies. It's very informative, some of you have prolly read it, but it's good.

Anywhu, i think it's great you guys are getting a new one together. There's an enormous amount of talent there, Hazards all round brilliance, Matias's insane concepts and though i've yet to see your work morphine, are you a programmer or an artist. With that much potential i don't see why you can't be the next big thing. Just one thing always keep a character modelling position for me, right guys.

I've also taken the initiative to think of a name for you guys, how about "Hazards allround brilliance, Matias's insane concept art and yet to see Morphines work Interactive" <--------- Catchy hay :)

didn't mean to offend,

i knew a couple of peeps who went down that road and they got burnt. i was one who had to burn them. ever since ive been overly apprehensive.

this is prob some of the best advice you'll find on the net:

http://www.gamedev.net/reference/business/features/legalissues1/
too
http://www.gamedev.net/reference/business/features/legalissues2/

by all means give it one hell of a go.

HAHA thanks for that bullet21 sounds like a pretty catchy name to me :D

well if i WAS forming something,.. it wouldnt be a throw together - and more than likely definately not consist of a group of people who simply want to make something :D

unfortunately it takes a little bit more than just a whole bunch of individual superstars to become a sucess in this day and age.... sorry if i sounded like i snapped fiasco - didnt mean to come across like that :D also you didnt offend - just came out like you assumed we had no idea what we were getting into.

ah s'ok

/cue violins

Sorry about the lack of posts, don't have the internet at home yet. But hopefully I'll be able to get some ADSL happening soon :)

Okay Dokey, I know that starting up a business would be a huge undertaking, with the likelihood of approaching the government for grants and starting on the NEIS program (New Enterprise Incentive Scheme). Not alot of fun, more training yes, and not alot of incoming money (I'm on NewStart atm). I wouldn't be able to pay anyone because I wouldn't have any money to pay you with :(

We would all like money but unfortunately this wouldn't be a possibility for maybe the first 6 months, depending on if we are extremely fortunate to get a deal with a publisher. But, we'd have to have a demo, documentation and heaps of PR stuff (Concept Art, etc), and as HazarD and I definitely know from the Qantm course we've done, that's no easy task within 6 months, especially if you have to be pulling up the slack from people that aren't pulling their weight in the project. The entire Project document from my team weighed in at 500+ pages!! (it sucked doing it but well worth it in the long run).

At the moment, we should probably see if anyone is willing to get together in Brisbane and throw some ideas around and we might be able to get something constructive out of it, and possibly the next EA, who knows!! :)

I don't have work online for you guys to look at, but I do have a website I did for the team I worked with during my Qantm Course. goto [url]www.skumindustries.com[/url] I did the website myself, and it has a few screenies of Arena Battles, the demo we created. We completed the game in approx 4-5 months with 6 people in the team (plus 2 artists).

HazarD, Motze was an awesome artist, 3d and conceptually, but he remains to be as elusive now as he was when we were trying to contact him when we were at Qantm. He'd be great to be a 3d artist on the team. Only prob I'd find with him would be his style is heavily into manga/anime, and I'm not sure how he'd handle different styles. But, I'd be more than willing to give him a go and see what happens.

BTW, what team were you on HazarD? The Goth guy was Adu, one of our artists :) He's cool, his work rocks.

That's all for now, my fingers hurt from typing [:D]

Just thought I'd pop in and say you should consider going to Freeplay: Nextwave's Independant Game Developers' conference. I'm sure the burning question most potential independant developers are wondering is where to start, funding etc. Hopefully you'll find out what your options are there and maybe network with other people who have some experience in that area. If you're serious about getting something started, I reckon it's worth attending. Definately worth the $30 entry ticket.

oh, and if anybody knows anyone who may be interested, please pass this on. I currently have 5 programmers and 2 artists in the team. I'm interested in getting 2 or 3 more people on the team so that the workload is evenly spread.

thanks,

You lucky bastard having 5 programmers :)

usually 2 or 3 artists are required per coder, depending on the scope of your project of course,..

Whats sort of game are you developing. Is it singleplayer or multi? I'm looking for a singleplayer project at the moment.

Single player to start with. We will add in multiplayer at a later stage if the group votes that it will make it a better game.

can i just chuck in my 2 cents - i hope your coders have built a really modulated engine as such.... cos simply building a single player game... then later deciding it will be fun to TURN it into a multiplayer game - is not simply a matter of ADDING it in ;)

I know as i took the " yeah we can change it later approach " and was sorely dissapointed.
So long as your coders allow for this "add in" of multiplayer you should be okay :D

yea i realise that its not simply an "add in" later on. But, the programmers did all agree on that focusing on a single player game to start off with the best approach.

and yes... I have amazing programmers working with me! :)

jee-buz 5 Code Monkeys!?!

Are you using an already released engine or are you starting from scratch. Have any more details about the design/art of the game?

We are writing our own engine. What sort of detail are you looking for? If you are interested, and you are based in melbourne, please email me.

Yeh, I agree, Ut2k4 is visually the weakest out of the three (I wish they worked more on lighting just to make it look more realistic - I think Cliffy B did say they worked on it a little, but it looks the same to UT2k3 to me), but I reckon it has the most potential from a modding point of view too. It seems it could offer so much more different game styles. You can make a long list of games on the market that Ut2k4 can emulate, and another long list of new directions you can take it with scripting (especially seeing what they were able to do in that Assault map). I think this is the key to what will make Ut2k4 different to the others.

Some great netcode, so even dialup losers like me can have fun online. I think Epic have done the right thing by getting Ut2k4 out before the others from a sales point of view, which will mean more people to participate in mods.

However, looking back at the number of decent mods made with UT2k3, I'm not too hopeful on what actually gets done with UT2l4. Entry level to modding is just getting higher and higher with more detailed content required and time spent to do something reasonable. I think the Make Something Unreal competition really killed output a bit - instead of encouraging more people to create mods, current mod groups just stopped showing what they were working on and did things quietly for the competition instead. We still haven't seen any of their work over a year later (it's coming on the Special Edition of the Ut2k4 though).

I'll admit that my level of enthusiasm for Half Life 2 has decreased quite a bit. It's redeeming features are seeming old hat now (the use of physics and environment objects, smart A.I), epsecially when we've seen them to some extent in other games. I'll no doubt get it, but I'm looking forward to the single player experience and the art the most. Valve are doing some weird things with pricing (no online version, subcription version where you pay regularly to receive updates etc).

There are going to be some professional mods with Half Life 2, I'm certain of it (and a lot of crap ones too [;)]). Jump on over to http://www.incorporated-hl2.com/ to see how serious people are taking it. There was another project which absolutely blew me away (the concept art was incredible). The name escapes me at the moment but there were some really professional people working on it. All of them are hoping to get hitched by Valve like Counterstrike and Day of Defeat were, so they're putting some real effort in it. Modding for Half Life 2 (as a level designer and artist) should be a breeze if you're already used to the tools for Half Life. I'm not sure about HL2's potential of offering different, new or interesting sorts of games though. You have vehicles and Havoks to play with, along with a prettier engine, but what more can you do? I just have a feeling that we'll be playing the same kind of mods with Half Life 2.

Doom 3 is a strange one. Only capable of 4 players online, I'm not sure if as much people are willing to put the effort in a total conversion. I'm sure we'll see different maps here and there. I don't think Doom3 will offer that much in scripting to alter different playing styles. Modding and online seems like an afterthought to the single player experience. Editing for Doom will be awesome since you'll be able to preview it straight away, but I'm sure that's just a result of technology rather than pleasing the mod community. Having said that, I'm sure the single player experience is gonna kick ass [:)] Definatley looking forward to Doom 3.

i think UT2k4 might hold the greatest potential for first timers with the special pack DVDs (assuming their good and easy to follow), im so happy someones finally making something like this. I did a bit of mod work on GTA Vice ctiy and to find out how i had to browse over all these forums constantly asking questions, its great that were actually getting taught by the makers.

the ut training dvds are by 3dbuzz.com i believe, not the developers.

My personal take on the best to mod (FPS engines only).

1:halflife 2, ooh my poor heart.
2:stalker, Dont even know if its possible to mod but I'd love to use their engine.
3:far cry, Ingame editor! sweeeeeeet. If it works as well as the demo suggests then wow.
4:Doom 3, normal map goodness.
5:meh UTK4, great for those wanting to learn but no where near the power of the others.

UT2k4 definitely has the advantage at the moment. Seeing as it is just a slightly better UT2k3 engine, people will already be fairly comfortable with it. We have seen twice now what it can and can't do. Even if total mods aren't made for it, it still does have it's Mutators up it's sleave. It is nice to see that they are supporting the modding community a bit more than other devs have in the past. UT2k3 had both GMax and Maya PLE included, so that opened up posibilities to even more people (as opposed to games that only have Max support). The SE of UT2k4 does have the DVDs as well. Let's just hope that they are worth while. While it's engine may not be as cutting edge as the others, it does have the time behind it.

HL2 sounds a little odd. They released dev kits and SDKs for it a while back so that modders could get to grips with it, but I haven't read much on what it is actually like. They (Valve) keep hyping the crap out of it, but I remain dubious. Keep in mind that there are a lot of Fanboys who love Half-Life, so they will probably try to make mods for it based purely on the franchise. Half-Life did come up from nowhere and really hit the modding community hard though. CS is still one of the biggest 'games', and that was four years ago (give or take). I really do like their character abilities though (decent facial expressions :) )

Doom3 looks and moves very nicely. It's lighting is it's big selling point, and for good reason. Like HL2, there are a lot of id purists out there (I am one), and they will like the engine based around that. id pretty much started the modding community and has supported it somewhat well over the years. Although it's netcode may seem somewhat weak, it may have the ability to be improved on. Maybe it is just locked to four people at the moment due to speed issues with the graphics. Do you really want to run Doom3 with 32 Normal Mapped Marines slogging it out? :) Maybe when systems can handle it a little better, they will release a patch with more player support. Keep in mind that there was Quake Rally. Who would have thought it was posible to change an FPS into a Racing Game? And please don't say Impact :p

I really like the Farcry Engine. It looks cool, and has really bright colours. It just doesn't look like a standard FPS. The level rendering is amasing. Sure there is noticable popup and lodding, but I think it is worth it for the vast landscapes. That and the water is gorgeous. I don't know what the modding abilities of it are like, but the engine sounds quite nice.

Stalker is a mixed bag for me. It has some features that really do look nice (weather effects), and then some that don't look as nice. Then again, that was a while back that they showed it. I will wait on this one before saying yay, or nay.

Max has always been the biggest tool for game dev in the past, but there are now more and more people starting to shift to alternatives (Maya, XSI). Therefore, I think that what exporters and support there will be available, will make a big difference. I would love to have made characters for NWN, but it only has Max support. It will be interesting though, game devs and modders have never been so spoilt for choice with high quality engines. It has always been and id engine or a Unreal engine. Not anymore :)

Aven:
Have seen some of what half life is capable of and its nothing short of amazing, normal maps, amazing shaders, cameras, full facial animation, havok of course and much more.

Doom 3 while looking bloody cool hasn't released anything substantial for anyone to look at (except the leaked version) so I have nothing to go on except a few sreenshots and videos of well lit normal mapped characters (most of the engines I quoted have those abilites also). I'm also not much of an ID fanboy, I like there games but I think they make the technology and other companies (like valve) excel at using it to make better games.

Farcry has some interesting abilities, I touched on the editor, if you manage to get the video of how the ingame editor works you'll see why I'm intrigued. Now it also has decent shaders, normal maps and lighting but I still believe in Valves ability to make more of there engine. BTW, the colours are way to saturated for my taste but thats got nothing to do with the engine, thats a design issue.

Stalker is a strange one I agree, it looks amazing but I don't know if it will be moddable by the general public, I haven't heard of an editor in the pipeline. There are some obvious technologies in there videos that compare with the others, physics engine, shaders, cool lighting and possible normal maps etc. The engine looks pretty impressive.

Oh and UT2004 is most probalby going to be the most modded, its accessable to everyone and really isn't all that complicated. People new to modding can get something up and running pretty quickly and the more experienced modders still have some decent tools to make great mods, its just not one I'm all that interested in looking at.

I just want to clear up a couple of points raised here, I might post more of my own opinions later when I have time. Note these are just the way I understand things, don't take it as anything definate...

quote:HL2 looks like it will have great graphics, but there may be some mean restraints on level sizes. It may require some funky tools (SoftImage?) to develop with. No idea what the development is like as far as coding goes.

In Half-Life 2 most of the restrictions on map sizes, entity counts and so on that plagued modders of the original have been greatly improved. Of course, there will be restraints there, but I doubt they will be the issue they used to be. There is a FAQ floating around the major mod sites with more info.

Softimage is not something you must use, it's just what they are going to be supporting the most in their SDK and they will be providing a free version of it to the community (similar to the trial version already out?). So long as you can get an exporter for your favourite 3D app you should be able to use it, I expect that if Valve doesn't release them for the major apps (3DS etc) that someone in the community will chip in fairly quickly. Valve's move away from 3DS was for a number of rather good reasons though I haven't used Softimage myself so I can't comment.

Coding will be much the same as with Half-Life 1, C++ code compiled into a dll. Apparently if you are familiar with the original code you should have no problems adjusting to the new stuff. Many people think the original code was a terrible mess though apparently the new code is significantly improved. There is of course nothing stopping you compiling something like LUA into your dll to add your own scripting support...

Half Life 2, as it said in PC PowerPlay issue number 98, it will be easy to mod for it, and very easy to get the mods of Half Life now, into Half Life 2.

Half Life 2, as it said in PC PowerPlay issue number 98, it will be easy to mod for it, and very easy to get the mods of Half Life now, into Half Life 2.

As for Doom 3, PC PowerPlay issue 97 said that it will be easy to make new things for it, as they are going to put the programs they used to make Doom 3, like the map making program. Pity the only play is only allowed 4 players, thoe modders will make it better, let us hope.

cody you can just click edit post if you want to addsoemthing you don't need to double post. it's like a pencil on paper icon.

Regarding map sizes in HL2, i brought that up because of an article ir ead quite a while ago comaring HL2 engine to UT2k3, where the maximum map sizes (in units) of UT2k3 where IIRC about 64 times larger than HL2 (4 times larger in each of 3 dimensions).
In the leaked HL2 beta, it also seemed loading screens were not far apart either :(
Anyway, it's hard tor eally judge without playing a map of maximum size etc. I think one person in that article calculates that using HL/HL2 scale of 40 inches per unit (?) The max map size would still be a good couple kilometers or so in each direction, which will be fine for games played on foot :)
CYer, Blitz

Malus - Yeah, I have seen all the movies for HL2 as well. THe shaders are nice, but I don't think that much of it's water shader. It's nice that it has HDRI support (even though it is probably only LDRI), but it is a little wasted on games at the moment. I have only seen one example of it's normal mapping (that rock wall in the 25min demo), and I thought it was just a bump map. As for Havok, most games have that now, but yes, HL2 has the nicest implentation (except for the rag dolls).

I haven't said that the HL2 engine is bad. Hell none of them are bad. They are all strong engines. The only problem is that three of them don't really exist yet (Doom3, HL2 and Stalker). Yeah there have been movies and leaks for the three of them, but I refuse to judge them until they are in an offical form playing on a system in front of me. Come on, how many of us actually believe developer/publisher hype anymore? As for leaks. Well, they may give you a rough idea, but it is very rough.

Seeing as three of those games aren't substantial enough yet, that leaves Farcry and UT2k4. Both have had official demos released (Farcry has two SP demos and a third MP beta that you can't get :(). Which is my fav out of those two? Let's see... Engine wise, I would have to go with Farcry. Modding wise, UT2k4. UT2k4 gets the modding award just because we know what it is like to mod. Farcry doesn't have any tools out yet, so we don't know.

What is my fave engine out of them all? I would like a hybrid engine :D Take Doom's lighting, mix it with HL2's characters, dynamics, and shaders. Add in Farcry's vastness, water and AI. Add a spoon full of Stalker's weather effects and then speed it up to UT2k3/2k4's speed. If i can only pick one, then I'm screwed. HL2 and Farcry are the most impressive overall, but it depends on what type of game you want I guess. Both HL2 and Fracry would make awesome engines for something like Action Quake2/Half-Life. Doom3 would be great for anything that is meant to freak the crap out of anyone (AvP anyone :D). At the moment to me, Stalker would make a nice weather effects engine for the news, and UT2k4 would be great for a UT Rally game. So damn fast.

Considering that I am not into full on mods, it will depend on which ones come with Maya exporters. Farcry says it does. UT does. Doom3 should (as characters are animated in Maya). HL2 and Stalker are still up in the air. UT2k4 seems the best at the moment (as nearly any type of character with a gun could fit in), but I just don't like the game :/

Come on damn you, just release the games....

When it comes to creating mods, its a question of how far you bend the engine, and which limitations you will hit first.

I haven't been following many of these games, but i know from experience that developers build their engines around certain limitations. As an example, Doom 3 is almost guarenteed not to have big outdoor sections (or at least not with the same quality of lighting as the indoor ones). This is simply because they can optimise the living crap out of an engine built to handle indoor environments (read wolfenstein, doom and quake).

When it comes down to it, you want a specific feature that only one engine can provide, or you want an engine that can do it all (which it does by making other sacrifices).

Oh yeah, you also want an engine that doesn't exlude users with lower end machines. :D

cheers

quote:Originally posted by smeg
[Oh yeah, you also want an engine that doesn't exlude users with lower end machines. :D

The catch cry of someone with a lower end machine lol. [;)]

not all of us have massive bank accounts which to empty on new video cards :P or are human ATM hybrids (glares at bullet) :P

quote:Originally posted by Malus

quote:Originally posted by smeg
[Oh yeah, you also want an engine that doesn't exlude users with lower end machines. :D

The catch cry of someone with a lower end machine lol. [;)]

Haha, and how! :D

Dont make the mistake that 95% of people make and confuse the game art with the game engine.

A large part of any complete game engine is the tool set. In that requard unrealis the best at the moment. Given the hl2 and doom3 editors have not been seen. But aren't we comparing whats on the market now and not will becoming out in the indefinite future?

i will be modding Unreal2k4 as soon as i get a new video card :( i have the tutes thanks to 3dbuzz but due to unrealed and mayaPLE running on direct3D (see max gives you the option of like openGL and stuff which is nifty if you ask me, but oh well) and my vid card being out of vid memory. So ill have something to show like.... i dunno probably by the end of the year :P

That kinda sucks that unrealed can't use the software renderer?
CYer, Blitz

dosent give you the option, atleast it dosent before the program closes itself with the error message. If anyone knows an option to change the renderer via an ini file or something thatd be great.

I'm interested. Email me at jpoysden@post.qantm.com.au. Excellent at Web/Graphic/Interface/Concept Design, Music, Levels, etc.

*Warning* Off Topic
In the interests of keeping the history books in line (and hoping that i'm not making this stuff up), the reason for the "backlash" in the previous post was not really to do with not posting info etc. People could really care less whether you post the info or not, however, it is in your interests to post info if you do want people to give a damn :).
The reason for the "backlash" was due to the fact that the person who made the original request for help post was very impatient (bumped the post twice within a week), and then when people offered help on why he wasn't getting any replies, he either ignored them or in some way abused them and complained.
So, in closing, we will not get pissy at you for not including info, but WILL get pissy at you if you ignore and/or get abusive at our efforts to help you :)
CYer, Blitz

Have you received and/or my work yet urgrund? Hope you got it ok, and intact :)

Still need any help?

hey scott...
yeh sure, what is your department?
we're kinda in "critical" need for coders and someone to take on a character model (to model and animate it)

im a programer, you dont want to see whats passes for my art

oh... but coding is an art :P
I PM'd you, so just reply to that and I'll send you more info along with the needing files... etc.

cheers

Hi,

I've experience in C++ and some experience with DirectX 3D, 2D, sound etc plus A.I and 3D math. This has been gained working on my own game projects, currently looking for a project to work on.

I don't have a lot of hour to put into it but get back to me if you are interested.

chris@network-ed.com.au

hey chris... i sent you a mail.

________________________________________

And here's a few more shots of more rescent developments:

[img]http://www.toraconceptart.com/orc1s.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.toraconceptart.com/big_ugly_orc.jpg[/img]

[img]http://edgeofvalour.bittercherry.com/images/ctf1_04.jpg[/img]

[img]http://starwars.web.easynet.be/dungeonrumble/files/screenshots/ctf01_17…]

Woah - id say nice website.. but its so tiny i cant see it..
[img]http://www.roidsofdoom.mine.nu/~alia/small.jpg[/img]

:(

Ahh well, I guess that's a no.

And I guess that it must be still a no, its been a while, heh.

I think the reason you are having problems getting interested parties are:

You are requesting a substantial amount of time from those that you want to join 4-6 hours per day is almost a full time job, not many out there are able to or willing to commit to that number of hours, without pay.

You are requesting a large cross section of people ?We need Coders, Artists, Modellers, Skinners, Mappers ? this gives the impression that your current team is virtually non existent, this turns people away, they think they might as well start their own team if they are going to start from scratch anyway.

Lastly, you have given no information about your intended product, what is it about, what kind game / setting / style / mood. People need to be interested to be motivated especially when working for nothing.

If you address these issues, I think you will find that you have more luck getting people

Pantmonger

I work about 8 hours a day on game projects period. If I did not devote myself with such dedication, it would be useless... and I would expect anyone who wants to make it in the game development industry to work just as hard, either on a personal portfolio project, or with a team on a larger maybe commercial project.

And I do not assume to pretend that we already have a team, stating that we already had coders or modellers, and asked for a select few would be a farce, if people want to work, I would assume they would want to work, wether it be payed or unpayed, I usually contribute my efforts to whoever needs it at any particular time.

We do have a team, but it does not include content developers.
The story creators, a coder, a musician, and the PR have already been chosen generally, and if we give out too much information about the intended project, someone will make it elsewhere.

I've been in a situation before where a similar problem occured and it was not minor, somewhere in the world, an unnamed party are obtaining over US $150 per product for something that I created.

Also... I am not really a great part of this team as such, I am just devoting some time to getting an idea off the ground for a friend who is inexperienced in the game development area, but he has an idea which I believe will push the gaming envelope.

hey mister, is this the same guy that i spoke with a while back about AmpII? ...never heard any replies.

We've made a lot of progress so far. Not interested in that project anymore? A basic license is free now. We mainly need a character modeler, code sound and maps are underway.

(w.i.p shots)
[url]http://starwars.web.easynet.be/dungeonrumble/files/screenshots/ctf1_05…]
[url]http://starwars.web.easynet.be/dungeonrumble/files/screenshots/ctf1_06…]

And it costs $2000 to buy a publishing license, not the many hundreds of thousands for Q3.

I don't remember?

We are sorry we cant provide as much information to you guys as we would like to, solely because we believe the aspects of our game have never been seen before in a FPS (single player and multiplayer mode especially).

We hope that after work is underway, and after a certain production phase has been met, we will be setting up a website to promote this exciting new game.

Our game will be highly action packed, and we are pushing the boundaries of player-map-strategic interaction.
Not only will you be awe inspired by the intense action, and gameplay we hope to create, but our concepts for multiplayer provide a significant leap in solo/team co-operation skills in relation to fighting the bad guys, and interacting with map surroundings to further add strategy to gameplay and outwitting the other team/badguys.

At the moment we are looking for Storywriters, 2D artists, and coders.

An engine is still being decided, as we are not sure if current engines can provide what we need.

If you are interested, please email us with sum reference material of work you have done, or a quick summary.

We'll keep you guys updated.

Thanks
Mortal (Dan)
[8)]

Hrm, unfortunately that sounds like every other mod development team's goal and design out there really... :-(

Would you like to enlighten us with sum examples?

Also.. if you had read my post, you'd notice I haven't explained how we are aiming to implement this within the game.

Similar ideas may be questionable, but it means nothing until it is actually done.

I agree with Daemin on this.
Every time I see a mod team make a recruitment post, they seem to give a broad generalisation as to what their project will do, but without providing specific examples regarding what will make it stand out.

quote:Originally posted by Mortal


Our game will be highly action packed, and we are pushing the boundaries of player-map-strategic interaction.
Not only will you be awe inspired by the intense action, and gameplay we hope to create, but our concepts for multiplayer provide a significant leap in solo/team co-operation skills in relation to fighting the bad guys, and interacting with map surroundings to further add strategy to gameplay and outwitting the other team/badguys.

That there doesn't say anything about your project.. You're just using a bunch of big words, spaced out with the occasional catch-phrase.

Really the whole thing comes off as a rather flashy advertisement - that really doesn't explain what you are selling. Pitch that to any publisher, and they'll give you a 'ok, what else do you have'.

I recommend putting a website up, outline what your plans are, and why your mod is going to be special. Provide a few examples as to why your game will be different, and more kickass than anything else that has been done. Post it onto news pages - here for example, polycount is also a good one, and people will be less likely to flog your ideas.

Just on the topic of people flogging idea - its important to realise that most groundbreaking game ideas succeed because of the execution. Example: You play a plumber who jumps over barrels. Wha? What the hell is that? That gives nothing away, but it sure is a starting point. Another example is the eyetoy - you interact with the games by waving your arms about. Sure someone could steal this idea and try to beat you to the punch, but it's all in the execution.

Michael / Dan - You probably don't need to set up a website or try to whip up some hype for your mod, but you DO need to treat the people you are asking for help (and yes, that is what you are doing) with the respect they deserve.

cheers

Where is the disrespect?

Exactly Smeg!...

The other thing is that if you think that your idea is brilliant and unique, then the sad truth is that it probably isn't, and numerous people around the world have had it also.

For example: I was in Sydney sometime in pre-2000, and together with two friends we came up with the idea of a taxi driving game where you are pretty much ffree to do anything to get your passengers from A-B... Then a few years later lo and behold crazy taxi comes out. Now I'm pretty sure I didn't really tell anyone about it, and neither did my friends. So unless there's some creepy mind reading instrument that read that idea from my head (then if such a thing existed there'd be no defence anyway!) it is safe to say that many people around the world come up with the same or similar ideas!

quote:Originally posted by Mister

Where is the disrespect?

I didn't say you were disrespecting anyone.

What i mean is that you should give people something to spark their interest. If they are to commit to your project - buy into your vision - you should share at least some of that vision with them. It's all give and take.

There are no hard and fast rules about this sort of thing, no right and wrong way. Recruit however you see fit. It all comes down to how you handle yourself, how you try to woo the talented individuals who are reading you request.

----

Crazy taxi. Perfect example. That idea must have popped up in 10 or 20 development houses over the last 20 years. Why is there only one crazy taxi? Because it is all in the execution.
How do you make it fun?
How do you make it challenging?
How do you keep drawing the player back for more?
The idea is good, but it usually isn't enough (not unless you have an excellent game designer in your pocket..).

cheers

The disrespect is in your lack of information. You are disrespecting peoples *intelligence* if you expect them to get on board a project that a) They know nothing about, and b) They won't be paid for.
And as has been stated, your "hype" for the game abuses peoples sensibilities. "This game is great!" "What game" "I can't tell you but it's great!" is just going to turn people off.
CYer, Blitz
PS. If some other company is making $150 a pop from something you created, why didn't you sue them, or lay criminal charges for theft?
Or perhaps you never actually DID create it??

I think you all seem to have the wrong idea about what is going on around here, basically what you are all saying is, if you were payed to do the work, you would do it without needing to know the intricate details of the game.

But because its a development team that is starting up, you need to know everything? If you confronted an employer with that attitude, wether they were paying you or not, the fact of the business being in a 100% working state, or you volunteering to help the business attain a 100% working state would not be any issue to be discussed, you would still have a Non Disclosure Agreement, you would still be working to a strict deadline.

The hype is meant for the gamers, the end user, the idiot who pays AUD $100 for our game, not our disgruntled employees who feel they need to know what they are working on, the whole Object Oriented structure of C++ maintains that you can give someone a job that fulfils a specific part of your objectives without actually telling them what the hell its ultimate purpose is.

Our team is ultimately asking for employees, not a bunch of whining mod makers, who have their own dreams of what 'their' game will entail, its a team effort, not a bunch of idiots B-Grading their way to stardom. Flaming people with insolent remarks about what they are trying to accomplish just makes you look foolish, especially when you don't know exactly who you're talking to, I could be anyone. and Dan could be anyone.

The motivation to create a game comes from the individual, like I have expressed before, I work on game development as much as my body will physically allow, and I would expect anyone with this idiology to come work with us, if you have a fulltime job and game design is your hobby, then we're not after you, we're looking for dedicated people. The ones that wake up each morning, have a hundred coffees sit at the computer, and work, work, work, Every day. The best games ever made were not made by people just whacking down some part time work for a game they were hyped up about they were asked to work, they worked, and they made a game that sold.

Yay lets all work 12 hours a day, for free, creating assets without knowing what they'll be used for!!

I'm sorry.. But it's hard to be passionate about creating art without knowing what its for.
I've been wanting to join a good mod for a long time, but have found that 95% of the ideas floating are uninspired and dull, I'm pretty sure anyone with any mod experience will agree with me on this.. Which is why I think you're going to have a fun time recruiting slaves.

But hey, it's pretty clear you aren't willing to listen to any point of view other than your own, so good luck with your mod.

If you're an artist, i'd expect you'd work 12 hours a day creating assets for yourself anyway? So why not create them for a purpose? Guitarists don't practise for half an hour and expect to be decent, they put in at least 4 to 6 hours each day wether they have a job or not, anything less and you're a hobbyist, and like I said, we're not looking for hobbyists.

I listen to everyone, but when people don't listen to me, or read what I say correctly, its just useless. You keep saying Mod. Where'd you get that idea? Creating content for an engine like q3a for in house testing, which will be in the future transfered to an in house engine is not a mod. If anyone wants more information all they had to do was ask, but the extent of the information given will be minimal until a NDA is prepared. Simple. I do not know why half of you cannot understand such a simple common understanding, I guess none of you have actually work seriously in the game industry before, so I am wasting my time here.

I'm sorry but this is the way the game development industry works, When I posted here originally I presumed that everyone here knew that.

Over the past few years I have had the opportunity to work for many mod teams, Stage 5 Software in the UK, Antissa Studios in Melbourne, and during this time I have gained my knowledge from working and communicating directly with some of the Quake III Arena development team, an ex Project Manager from Microforte and the Physics programmer from Krome, and I doubt any one of these people would have the audacity to flame a future employer because he didn't give enough information about the projects that the team were working on. That is just crazy.

The last Job I worked on, was a volunteer project, it was posted here... The $100k US Challenge, I don't have the time to work anymore, because my fiance is pregnant, so now i'm just helping a friend start up his project and giving advice, etc. But you people are making it rediculous. If the manager from Microforte had posted the identical post that I did, this thread would have 150 replies.

Mister - Your comment about working long hours for the fun of it is fair enough. Yes, there are plenty of people out there who are willing to do it for their own hoby or even for a purpose, but telling people that they will never get a job because of it is rather unfair. If people don't want to invest that amount of time, then why are you worried? Would you want them working for you anyway? You have said that this is not a mod and is an actual project that you are looking at getting off the ground. It is fair to assume that people would want to be paid for something that is meant to be a little more professional.

The pay/time issue, doesn't bother me, what does is the lack of details. I don't really want to hear all the intricate details, but it would be nice to hear a few more details. The main thing is that you are very general about the people you wish to apply for the job.

You (and Dan) state that you are after 2D artists. What kind of 2D artists? Are you after conceptual artists? Are you past concepting and require texture artists? Do you even need GUI artists, who have more experience with design than art? IF you are after concept artists, then what do you need them to be able to illustrate? Characters? Mechanical designs (Vehicles, Weapons, etc.)? Sets and props? Are you after everything?

What Style, Timeline and feeling are you after? I though that you would have placed that in there to save yourselves. Are you after gritty, techno-industrial characters? or more realistic military based? This would help you out so that you wouldn't have to look at 40 portfolios with cute cartoon characters, when you are after something slightly more realistic.

Yes it would be great to have artists that can do all of those things, but there are very few of those. Hands up if you want to have the skills of Feng Zhu? I literally have both of mine up in the air. Artists like that are not only very difficult to come across in real life, but they are even more difficult to find free. Most Artists that have that level of skill would have a nice job, and even their own line of tutorial DVDs :)

You seemed to get very upset when this was assumed to just be a mod. Perhaps you should re-read your original posts. They are written just like a mod. Mainly because you are very loose with the help you are after. If you were a little more professional with this project, you would have better placement positions written up. Perhaps you should have a look at the Employment section here at Sumea to see how they are written up. The title of this thread also helps the confusion that this is just a mod "Quake 3 Modification Development Team Wanted"

You also made a personal attack on all the people who have posted here by saying that they don't have an idea how the Games Industry works. To the best of my knowledge, over half the people who have posted currently have jobs. If you have worked in the Gaming industry as much as you have said, then you would have a better idea of how a company should be run.

The last one. About Microforte offering jobs without pay. I can sure as hell assure you that you couldn't be more wrong about that. When I finished my course with Maya, John De Margheriti approached the class with a project. It was three years, full-time, without pay. You could have heard a pin drop.

Sorry for the long post.

EDIT: I should add that, no. I don't work in the Gaming Industry, nor have I. You can ignore this post as much as you would like because of that.

I find that your attitude is incredibly conceited, you are preaching to us about how the industry works

quote:I'm sorry but this is the way the game development industry works

And making claims like

quote:I guess none of you have actually work seriously in the game industry before, so I am wasting my time here

does not improve your standing.

A fair few of the people who post on this forum are in the industry, myself included. I know what is expected of me in a paid environment and that is the fundamental difference here. In a paid environment you work to someone else?s vision, that is one of the reasons why you are paid. But you want people to do this for you, for nothing. Why would people want to dedicate time to your product rather then their own? with no information about the product, and with your obvious attitude problems when it come to critique.

My first post in this thread outlined the problems you would have getting people, due to the lack of information you posted. You chose to dismiss the advice I offered you then prophecy like the problems arose. I think your chances of receiving further help from most on this forum are now incredibly low. I suggest that if you are serious about getting together a team for making a game you do some serious work on your interpersonal skills lest all your ?employees? vacate in short order.

Oh and one last thing

quote:You keep saying Mod. Where'd you get that idea?

Um thread title ?Quake 3 Modification Development Team Wanted?

Pantmonger

Firstly; chill.

"You keep saying Mod. Where'd you get that idea?"

This thread under "Mod / Game collaborations, and game technology" and the topic is "Quake 3 Modification Development Team Wanted". I'd say this is a fair assumption. If this in NOT a mod, explain or reiterate exactly what this project is. After all, you do not want people commiting and realising they have bit off more than they can chew.

"if you were payed to do the work, you would do it without needing to know the intricate details of the game. But because its a development team that is starting up, you need to know everything?"

People only want to know something. And yes, plenty of people work on games without knowing the full extent of the project. I'm not saying people work on games without knowing squat, but there are certainly companies who are incredibly strict on their Need-to-know policies.

"The hype is meant for the gamers"

I agree entirely. When it comes to recruiting, leave out the hype.
And as for you comment regarding the end user who forks out $100 for the product, i suggest you edit that post. Comments like that only reflect poorly on you.

"I'm sorry but this is the way the game development industry works, When I posted here originally I presumed that everyone here knew that."

To an extent, this is true. If you go for a job interview with a developer, you will probably learn nothing of the project they are working on. This is not the case with most MOD teams however; they usually try to enlist likeminded individuals to create something they will all enjoy ("hey, lets make counter-strike, BUT MEDIEVAL!"). The mod's i've been involved with were either right up my alley, or sounded fascinating.

Michael. You can either take peoples' advice or ignore it. In the end it's your choice. You also have the choice to reply to constructive criticism with rants. If you would like us (Bob, blitz, daemin and myself) to back down and let you promote you Mod however you see fit, we will (right guys?). But don't be surprised if you get similar responses from others.

Peace.

By the way, when you have people working for you, for no pay, out of the goodness of their heart (well, it can't be because they like the project if they don't know anything about it!), then you should be over the moon that they would be willing to help. Your attitude is more that, for some reason, you have some god given right that people should work for you for nothing, and if they're unwilling, then they aren't worthwhile human beings.
CYer, Blitz
PS. I hope you're not the PR guy, because we're the public, and relations so far are very bad :)

Why dont you at least give us a BASIC rundown of the story/setting/themes etc, you can do that without giving away any gameplay details. I understand you dont want to have people flogging your idea's, but a vague description isnt going to entice anyone, at least try to sell your self a bit.

is the AMP II engine and utilities worth looking at??

no it doesnt... http://www.4drulers.com/ampfaq.html

"Does the engine support terrain?

No. The engine is a indoor corridor renderer. Smaller outdoor areas are possible, but full terrain support is not really possible with AMP II.
"

man....... i could have an entire forum to myself at this rate..

[;)] winks at himself

unfortunately open engines for modding are kinda really pigeon holed in the FPS category - those you have open access to are things like:

unreal tournament 2003
tribes series
battlefield 1942
q3a offshoots like wolfenstein: ET etc

Get the free unreal engine runtime, it has no game content just a demo scene, it would be great for what your looking for

http://udnbeta.epicgames.com/Files/UE2/Runtime/UE2Runtime-22261903.exe

yeh cool... thanks..
i am downloading the unreal runtime now ....

is battlefield 1942 relatively easy to put vertex animation in?

i want to just kind of stick my animation stuff in without too much fuss or staying up till 3:00 in the morning trying to figure out how to use the setting on the export utility....

probably cant excape it though..

thanks guys.

just a little comment on your game, very nice work, having seen top down shooting since the days of GTA1/2 (inspiration?)

Not really inspired by anything in particular, I just had some interesting ideas for map rendering algorithms and what not in my head and decided it would be nice to do something a little different to the norm. There are a few experimental things in there like the lighting system which is a lightmap composed every frame, allowing for dynamic lighting effects at almost no extra cost. I have yet to actually use the lighting much yet though.

I'm still looking for someone to help me out to by the way.

:)

hrmm intrested in hearing how you have done the dynamic light maps each frame?
must have a significant impact on frames i would expect?

quote:Line of site, the player can only see what he should see

looks like large perspective corrected untextured black walls which stretch upwards to me, instead of say something like nox which blacks the area out dynamically - if this is true, then I say good on you for successfully pulling off a good kludge [:)]

just a note, demo dosent appear to work on SiS video card (default onboard card for my motherboard, getting new card soon :P) even though i do have DirectX9

Ta MoonUnit, it does require a few things your on board might not do, such as 2 texture stages to modulate the light map in...

I'll give the condensed version of how the rendering is done so you get the general idea. I don't think it's revolutionary or anything, but I haven't seen some of these ideas around much so I thought they would be a good base for some original demo work.

First we set up to render to a texture and clear it, this texture will become our lightmap. We set the world and view transforms for the player so that our light map texture will perfectly cover the viewport. Now using an additive blend we render each light onto the texture. If you have a look in the data folder of the demo you'll find some textures which are used to render the lights, each light is just a textured polygon rendered on to the light map. With vertex buffers we can render a large number of lights onto the map like this at little cost, note that I'm only using a 128x128 texture for the lightmap for extra speed, filtering smooths it out nicely for me.

We have now created a lightmap for the viewport for this frame. The map is sector and portal based and the map system uses this to clip sectors and list only the visible portions of the map. This has the strange and unexpected effect of looking like "large perspective corrected untextured black walls which stretch upwards", something that more than one person has commented on. I must stress that *everything* is calculated in 2D, all polygons rendered are facing traight at the screen, constant Z. When the floor is rendered I mark it out in the stencil buffer and use that mask to clip the game objects.

Pros:

- We can vary light placement, size, rotation, colour etc with very little cost
- Lights are only restricted to what we can draw on a texture, which is rather alot. Eg if I want a light in the shape of a fish, I can do it
- Artists get absolute control over the final effect
- No calculation or map compile required
- Light mapping that doesn't eat heaps of memory

Cons:

- Clipping dynamically means we can't optimise for vertex buffers. On todays hardware large black walls might be a better solution, but clipping was an interesting programming task
- Lights can't change shape dynamically
- Getting lighting smooth and blended nicely requires alot of work

That about covers it off the top of my head, let me know if it's a little unclear...

:)

So this is clear, the walls look like they are perspective corrected but the "one-point perspective" look actually comes from the lines of site all coming from the player? Its completely 2D even though it looks like it has perspective.

This makes more sense to me now. When I first saw this I could not understand how you planned to use 2D characters in this appearently 3D environment.

One issue I see is that with this top down view there is currently no sense of what the walls are made of, whether you cannot see an area because it IS a physical object or it is simply HIDDEN from your current position. I guess this would change in the dynamic environment. Do you have any plans to show wall textures and how would you do this?

I think I understand your lighting technique. I presume it will not allow for characters to cast shadows?

quote:Originally posted by jwalduck

So this is clear, the walls look like they are perspective corrected but the "one-point perspective" look actually comes from the lines of site all coming from the player? Its completely 2D even though it looks like it has perspective.

Exactly. It's interesting the way it turned out and some people are immensley confused by it, but it was always intended as an experiment and I think it stands well as a slightly original demo piece.

quote:This makes more sense to me now. When I first saw this I could not understand how you planned to use 2D characters in this appearently 3D environment.

It took me a long time to figure out what people meant when they said it was 3D, it never occured to me as I built it in 2D from day one, from paper sketches right up.

quote:Do you have any plans to show wall textures and how would you do this?

Alot of people have asked this and unfortuntely no I don't. The way the engine is, it wouldn't be a terribly easy thing to add as I never thought it would be needed. In my opinion the ideal solution would be to move to 3D rendering and draw the walls as proper perspective upright walls like they appear to be, if we're going to do that we may as well move to full animated mesh characters and a proper 3D engine and, erm, I haven't got time for that just now.

quote:I think I understand your lighting technique. I presume it will not allow for characters to cast shadows?

Hmm, not proper shadows no. You could do some sort of hack by using a subtractive blend on the light map and predefined shadow texture shapes but I don't think it would look terribly good. The main trouble is that the lights are all in 2D space as well, there is no concept of lights being above or below the player, it is assumed they are an unbreakable 2D column of light.

It has been an interesting learning experience and proven that early testing and prototyping with users outside the project is important as they wont see things the way you do. I'm happy with the engine for now, it does everything it was designed for and more, I'm going to move onto making more of a game out of it.

Oh, and if anyone is at all impressed, I am currently looking hard for game programming work *anywhere* and would love to talk to you...

Demo: http://stingray.ftw.net.nz/BarryDahlberg.zip

Resume: http://stingray.ftw.net.nz/BarryDahlberg.doc

not a bad demo, i noticed that you have some culling problems though (tree's and stuff just disappear when i walk towards them). quite nice looking engine though :)

anyway, i get about 120fps on an athlon 1.1ghz with 512mb ram and a radeon 9600xt

thanks, yeah the culling is a problem beeing fixed, also trying to get light maps working(painfull)

i get 140fps on AMD2400XP 512mb ram 9600XT

ok its been updated(same link) culling fixed

geforce 3, amd 2500, 512mb ram - 50fps

hi, i tried running your demo but it doesnt do much at all on my system...the loading screen comes up then disappears after a second or 2...

i looked in the system.txt file and it spat out the following:

[code]
Creating console
Creating Input
Creating Direct3D device
Vertex Shader 2.0 not supported, resorting to software vertex processing.
ERROR: engineFileMgr.cpp 201
Failed to set Technique vertexSkin.fx (HR: -2005530516).
Loading Texture: splash.dds
Creating a new buffer.
Creating a new buffer.
Creating Audio
ERROR: engineDAudio.cpp 50
Failed to query interface
Creating Collision Manager
Loading Texture: bark01.dds
Loading Material: bark.MAT
Creating Render Manager
POINT: 0.383938 -0.288675 -0.500000
POINT: 0.383938 -0.288675 -0.500000
POINT: -0.383938 -0.288675 -0.500000
POINT: -0.383938 -0.288675 -0.500000
POINT: 0.383938 0.288675 -0.500000
POINT: 0.383938 0.288675 -0.500000
POINT: -0.383938 0.288675 -0.500000
POINT: -0.383938 0.288675 -0.500000
POINT: 38342.109375 -28828.654297 -49932.691406
POINT: 38342.109375 -28828.654297 -49932.691406
POINT: -38342.109375 -28828.654297 -49932.691406
POINT: -38342.109375 -28828.654297 -49932.691406
POINT: 38342.109375 28828.654297 -49932.691406
POINT: 38342.109375 28828.654297 -49932.691406
POINT: -38342.109375 28828.654297 -49932.691406
POINT: -38342.109375 28828.654297 -49932.691406
Creating Input
Loading map: datamapsmedieval.M3D
ERROR: engineFileMgr.cpp 201
Failed to set Technique vertexSkin.fx (HR: -2005530516).
NUM CELLS: 4
Creating a new buffer.
Creating a new buffer.
Loading Texture: castle_brick.dds
Loading Material: castle_brick.MAT
Loading Texture: wood_walkway.dds
Loading Material: wood_walkway.MAT
Loading Texture: castle_black_marble.dds
Loading Material: castle_black_marble.MAT
Loading Texture: castle_rock01.dds
Loading Material: castle_rock01.MAT
Loading Texture: woodplanktiles.dds
Loading Material: woodplanktiles.MAT
ERROR: engineA3DFile.cpp 400
Can't open file: data\models\Line.A3D
Loading Texture: dirt_moss.dds
Loading Material: dirt_moss.MAT
Loading Texture: pine_tree.dds
Loading Material: pine_tree.MAT
Loading Texture: bark_rough.dds
Loading Material: bark_rough.MAT
Loading Texture: tree_side.dds
Loading Material: tree_side.MAT
Loading Texture: rough_stone_wall.dds
Loading Material: rough_stone_wall.MAT
Loading Texture: straw_roof.dds
Loading Material: straw_roof.MAT
Loading Texture: gate_metal.dds
Loading Material: gate_metal.MAT
Loading Texture: woodtiles.dds
Loading Material: woodtiles.MAT
Loading Texture: mouldy_stone_wall.dds
Loading Material: mouldy_stone_wall.MAT
ERROR: engineA3DFile.cpp 400
Can't open file: data\models\Omni.A3D
ERROR: engineA3DFile.cpp 400
Can't open file: data\models\water.A3D
Loading Texture: wood_light.dds
Loading Material: wood_light.MAT
Loading Texture: rope.dds
Loading Material: rope.MAT
Loading Texture: yellow_muck.dds
Loading Material: yellow_muck.MAT
ERROR: engineFileMgr.cpp 201
Failed to set Technique vertexSkin.fx (HR: -2005530516).
Creating a new buffer.
Creating a new buffer.
ERROR: engineFileMgr.cpp 201
Failed to set Technique vertexSkin.fx (HR: -2005530516).
ERROR: engineFileMgr.cpp 201
Failed to set Technique vertexSkin.fx (HR: -2005530516).
ERROR: engineD3DDevice.cpp 321
Failed to lock index buffer
[/code]

my PC is:
Athlon 2600+
512MB RAM
GeForce4 Ti 4200 128MB

check u have the latest drivers and dx9...

the shader that should work it failing for some reason o.0

ok...ill try that

That's pretty damn cool. Is it a uni assignment, or just for fun?

Machine used

P4 2.53
1gb RAM
128mb Radeon 9700 Pro
Latest Catalyst and DX9b

Lowest frame rate was 117fps. Highest was about 260fps (staring at the sky :p). Generally it hovered between 140-210fps. There are a few clipping problem with the doors in the white castle. There are also some trees floating in mid air :)

yeah just for fun,and a job if it helps ;)

yeah the door are to close to another poly i need to fix that, and plant the trees down on earth :P

nice frames

my PC is:
Athlon 2600+
512MB RAM
GeForce4 Ti 4200 128MB

got the latest drivers and worked perfect...

roughly the lowest FPS i got was 60, highest about 250 (again, looking at the sky)...stayed between 70 and 90 FPS most of the time...

looks kool by the way!

this is really Kane by the way...i didnt realise My brother didnt sign out of his Sumea account...damn him

so which one was it, driver or dx9?

ok i read drivers ;) thx for that

I wasnt able to run it until I deleted this line "filter = D3DTEXF_LINEAR" From the ini file, is that a mip mapping thing?.
I got anywhere from 20 to 70 fps on my athlon 1ghz 512 ram, gforce 4 ti4200, latest nvidia drivers (which are lousy) and latest directx

So guys any chance I could get my hands on your plugins and fool around with your engine a little ;) I like it :)

Have you got LOD's working ,portals or other polygon culling methods?

no LOD yet, and my culling needs some work ;)
its the texture filtering method :-/ hrmm strange that
my icq: 70981152
msn: supagu@hotmail.com

Cool well I'm mostly on MSN or in the sumea chat room

sumea chat room?! where!?

irc://irc.uq.edu.au/sumea

Right here

**Note -- moved to the 'Mod / Game collaborations, and game technology' forum; The 'Work / Job positions available' forum is for company posted professional positions, not hobbyist/amateur game collaborations.

I haven't really looked at the site much, but i think my biggest concern would be the quality of the assets that are contributed. I don't know what sort of checks (if any?) etc. they have to remedy this? Obviously you could just not use assets that are crap, but then what is the point of those assets being there!
CYer, Blitz

Blizt do you use BLizt Basic, the program, as in your name Blitz?

What's the incentive for people to contribute (is getting credit enough)? Content takes time to make, especially decent stuff. [:)] What's to stop people from joining and just taking and not giving? And I kinda feel that once there are some decent models up, it's just going to appear in every game development project that takes part in that idea.
It's a noble idea, but it'll depend on people's generosity and willingness to share if it's to be a success..

codyalday:
No, it's derived from blitzkrieg. Blitz is the name i've used when playing games since i started playing 15 odd years ago :P (although in those days it usually had to be shortend to BLI or BLZ :P)

Souri: The incentive to contribute is to get access to the resources that others have contributed. What stops people from joining and not contributing is that you ave to contribute at least 2 assets before you are allowed to join.
CYer, Blitz

Well, what goes around comes around - so I'm a believer that if you can contribute greatly to a cause, then you will reap what you sow.

Im not sure what it is, but that site seems to be not exactly right and it kind of seems to me almost like a bad resource site that scams or something.

Im not sure but it just doesnt seem stable looking too me.

Seems they have a thing going with GarageGames... And the GG community was quite good, lots of sharing high quality assets.

Oh yeah the demo is here:
www.lphpnl.com/downloads

and if you wish to email us, just email me at:
twardlaw@lphpnl.com

I had a play of it at AGDC, not a bad game. I really liked the dynamic lighting. Yeah, I don't know if it was just me, but I didn't like the control system too much, I would have preferred it if you just shot whatever was right in front of you, rather than having to point to it with the mouse, but thats just me. Besides that, I thought it was one of the better games there (I voted for it :) )

The control system is what most people comment on. Either people love it or they hate it. Will probably have to add another control system to it.

I would love to know how it is running on different video cards.

Thanks for your vote dude!

on my radeon 9600XT there were gfx issues, the floor was flickering...
the conrolls were odd also, i suggest wasd as in a shooter, uses a and d as strafe, hence the mouse to turn around

I read about it on Atomic magazine but it dont work on my PC :(. Didn't it get a prize at AGDC.

downloaded it and had a play...i couldnt notice anything wrong with it, and my personal opinion on the controls is that they are fine...

one thing tho was that to shoot the little monster dudes, i had to be in their face basically, i couldnt hit them at all from a distance (maybe its just my poor aim!)

not really my type of game, but fun none the less and the graphics look great! well done!

Gibbz:

This patch should fix any problems with ati cards...
http://lphpnl.com/myoung/archives/xfirepatch01.zip

bullet21:

can you tell me some info about your computer?
Yes we got runner up best unsigned indy

Kane:

Thanks Man. I'm re-writing all the player and bug code now, it should keep every one happy.

no nothing wrong just that my pc is quite shit :(

I've moved this post here, since it's disappearing off the page in the general section..

I think what most people to 'sell' their engines to publishers or others is to make a playable game demo..

My guess would be, setup a webpage detailing your product, post in shitloads of gaming forums about it, try and get gaming websites to write some articles about it, call or e-mail magazines.
Let people purchase it online atc etc. Create a game with it.

Take a look at Virtools http://www.virtools.com
I'm not exactly sure if you can get a version for free, but I have heard of demos being made with their tools and they're supposed to be very good.

Hey, thats really handy! Especially if you want to create something that has little or nothing to do with UT2K3 etc.. No extra useless code, and no need to own a copy either!

http://members.optusnet.com.au/alti3/hellgate.html hell gate site in the works.

Just out of interest, it would seem (common sense?) that the deepest level of hell would be the most fortified/protected/hard to get out of etc., so would starting the game there be a little odd? :)
CYer, Blitz

Maybe the hellish hordes have been burrowing up to the gates of hell since mans birth and thats why all the forces are near the gates? Awaiting judgement day? I wouldn't think hell would be expecting visitors trying to break in anyway.

sticking to dente's version of hell the 9th layer is cold , not alot of action, more like soltiary confinment /frozen tombs etc.
but near the top is where it get s interesting, around level 7 and 6 , "The city of Dis" ie- hoards of murderors roaming about.

quote:Originally posted by Blitz

Just out of interest, it would seem (common sense?) that the deepest level of hell would be the most fortified/protected/hard to get out of etc., so would starting the game there be a little odd? :)
CYer, Blitz

An easier solution would be that you can only enter Purgatory from 'damnation' via a one way gate. A similar gate would be at the 9th level that leads to earth.

Malus' idea about demons burrowing back to the earth is interesting. Imagine if you were to escape and inadvertently unleash hell on earth. It'd make for a good ending twist (if slightly predictable) and a setting for the sequel.

Awsome Idea! Love it! Very original set of levels you have there. But I dont quite understand where the gameplay lies, exactly. Do you fight demons Diablo style through each level? I will go have a browse over your site... Nice idea.

quote:Originally posted by Majeeva

Awsome Idea! Love it! Very original set of levels you have there.

In all fairness, I believe the credit should go to Dante at this stage [:)]

Nice pick there Soul, I was trying to remeber who came up with that theme originally.

quote:Originally posted by Soul
In all fairness, I believe the credit should go to Dante at this stage [:)]

oh well I was unfamiliar with the concept, it was original to me [:)]

Either way, it's still a good setting for a game.[:)]

Not much action here lately, anything new?
This game has a reasonable (if not long overdue) setting but what kind of game are we playing here?

As far as I can tell, this project looks frozen solid - stuck somewhere in Cocytus.

...and another few feet down, beneath the lament of Judas Iscariot,
a small sign bearing the message 'reserved for the authors of AdWare'
;)

WiffleCube

those poor folks from ad-aware.. they do cop a bashing..

Dante's work is cool.

And if you were going to be getting technically picky on the work, what sort of protagonist would be already on the 9th level of hell to begin with?

I think that person would be better to stay there than to allow them to return to earth.

Another pretty popular open source engine is crystal space

http://crystal.sourceforge.net/

(from website)
Crystal Space is a free 6DOF portal based engine (based on the LGPL license). Current features are:

General Architecture:

True 6DOF engine with arbitrary sloped convex polygons.

Flexible plugin system which allows for plugging in other modules including scripting languages. Python and LUA scripting plugins are already included. There are also various other plugins (fonts, sound, ...).

Crystal Space uses SCF for communication between several layers (like between the 3D Engine and the 3D Rasterizer). This allows plug-and-play capabilities and other nice stuff.

Support for 15/16-bit truecolor) and 32-bit (truecolor) displays.
Crystal Space has commandline arguments and can run at many resolutions (640x480, 800x600, ...).

Very configurable via commandline or configuration file.

C++ source (and optional assembler) is available. Crystal Space falls under the LGPL GNU copyleft license for libraries which means that the engine can be used in commercial products provided you can conform to the LGPL license (no, you DON'T have to release the source of your game if you use CS).

cs-config script to make it easier for external applications to use CS.
Textures and Texture Mapping:

Textures can have any size which is a power of two and they need not be square.

Crystal Space supports textures with various formats including GIF, TGA, PNG, BMP, JPG, and others.

It is possible to map a texture on a polygon in various ways (rotated, scaled, mirrored, ...).

Perspective correct texture mapping with interpolation every 16 pixels.

Transparent and semi-transparent textures allowing for see-through water surfaces and windows.

In addition to the usual lightmapped textures you can also use triangles which are gouroud shaded.

Mipmapping to minimize memory strain on the texture cache and to have nicer looking textures when a polygon is far away.

Support for dynamic textures (i.e. texture that you can render on and put on a polygon as well as normal textures).

Support for internal 24-bit textures with a private colormap for every texture or true 24-bit.

Multi-texturing with OpenGL.
Engine Features:

Dynamic gouroud shaded sky dome (half-sphere) for a very realistic and nice looking sky. With very little programming it is possible to have a moving sun which actually modifies the color of the sky in real-time.

Support for multi-layered and animated skyboxes and skydomes.

Landscape engine.

Crystal Space supports mirrors!

With mirrors and alpha mapping you can create really nice shiny or reflecting surfaces.

Static colored lights with real shadows. Lighting and shadows are precalculated before the world is displayed.

Dynamic colored lights with soft shadows!

Precalculated Radiosity on the Lightmaps!

3D triangle mesh sprites with frame animation. Convertors for Milkshape, Maya, Cal3d, 3DS, Quake MDL and Quake II MD2 formats to Crystal Space are included. Importers for 3DS, MDL, MD2, OBJ, POV, and ASE are also included. The meshes are actually progressive meshes allowing for dynamic LOD (level of detail) changes. There is also support for skeletal sprites.

2D sprites and a particle system using those 2D sprites.

Depth-correct colored volumetric fog in sectors (both software and hardware renderers).

Optional halo's around lights for nice atmospheric effects. Also support for lens-flares.

Support for curved surfaces (Beziers, ...).

Visibility system based on a combination of portals, kd-tree, and coverage buffer.

Hardware accelerated transforms (if available and with OpenGL) for 3D triangle mesh sprites, curved surfaces, and terrain engine.
Portability:

Currently Crystal Space has been ported to Unix (X Windows, OpenGL), GNU/Linux (X Windows, SVGALIB, SDL, and OpenGL), Macintosh OS/X (also with OpenGL), Windows 32-bit (DirectDraw and OpenGL).

Optional OpenGL hardware acceleration on Windows, GNU/Linux, and Macintosh OS/X. The OpenGL port has been tested with Mesa on GNU/Linux and works very well. The other OpenGL ports will also work well.

Optional MMX support for processors that support it.
File Format Support:

Crystal Space can directly load 3DS, MDL, MD2, ASE, OBJ, or POV objects.

Powerful XML world file format allowing you to easily redefine the world.

Levels can be stored in standard compressed ZIP archives so that you can easily make a bundle of one level.

It's possible to make libraries of objects, textures and other game related stuff and put it all in a seperate ZIP file.

A convertor to convert MAP files (from Quake/HalfLife) to CS is also included. You can use this to edit levels with QuarK/WorldCraft or other editors.

Convertors to convert Maya, Milkshape, or 3DS to models or levels is included.

Several Blender scripts (Python) are included to export models and levels from within Blender.
Various Other Features:

Font system plugin to support other font types. Currently CS fonts and truetype fonts are supported.

Moving objects and a (currently limited) script language controlling the movement.

Hierarchical bounding box collision detection system.

Powerful physics library using ODE is included too. It is a dynamics modeling and simulation engine.

Sound support.

Support for 3D sound (DS3D, EAX, A3D, ...).

Support for various sound formats: WAV, Ogg/Vorbis, AU, AIFF, IFF, and MOD (using MikMod).

Simple networking support for Windows, GNU/Linux and Unix (sockets based).

There is also an input/output console (like in Quake) that can be activated with the 'tab' key.
Here are things which are currently in progress:

Work on a new advanced OpenGL renderer which uses
hardware to its fullest including vertex shaders and dynamic shadows.

Further work on Dynavis: the visibility culler.

Here are several things that we plan to do for Crystal Space in the near future:
We will start working on a general LOD (Level Of Detail) manager in CS.

UnrealEngine2
http://udn.epicgames.com/pub/Engine/WebHome/
Big and expensive

Four distinct geometry types allow for highly detailed levels with reduced design time through instanced, reusable content.
Adaptable to several different game types including but not limited to First Person Shooters, to Real Time Strategies, to 3rd Person Action Adventure.

UnrealEd
UnrealEd is a real-time level design tool based on constructive solid geometry, optimized through its use in multiple released games for building real-time 3D environments.
UnrealEd is fully integrated into the Unreal engine: the camera views are What You See Is What You Get. All lighting, texture placement and geometry operations take place immediately, providing extremely fast feedback while building levels.
UnrealEd allows for visual editing of properties of objects.
You are always one click away from play-testing your level on both PC and Xbox.
Tabbed "browser" windows allow fast and easy selection and manipulation of geometry and content.

Licensee Community
The Unreal Developer Network site serves not only as a hub for engine documentation and support, but licensee contributions of information and code as well. Examples of licensee-provided enhancements available:
Macros and syntax highlighting for various editors and IDEs
Enhanced package manipulation, obfuscation and compression tools
Editor improvements such as a new particle system editor, an animated texture browser, a 3D rotation gizmo, view-corrected 3D dragging and more
Sample full-screen video and video texture support using RAD Game Tools? Bink
Sample environmental bump-mapping support
Sample hardware vertex and pixel shader support utilizing ATI?s RenderMonkey tools for fast artist/programmer collaboration on shaders
New skeletal mesh compression code and optimized terrain rendering code
Many Xbox workflow tools that we can?t tell you about
Tons of sample snippets, like root motion, ribbon emitters, camera effects, asynchronous file access, light-averaging player shadows and more!
Active, real-time chat with other licensees for fast, informal assistance with technical and content questions, Xbox and PS2 help, as well as offering private channels for your own team.
"Wiki" editing allows for free-form and structured collaboration with other licensees directly on UDN itself, either working on individual documents and specifications, establishing private webs, or installing the software and UDN templates locally.
CVS repositories provide clean, pre-prepared engine codedrops alongside the official milestone releases, up-to-date with all bugfixes and patches.

Deliverables and Licensing
Full, commented C++ and UnrealScript source code and binaries for everything.
Read/write access to the Unreal Developer Network support site, with documentation on much of the engine, source code and tools contributed by other licensees, and more.
Access to the Unreal technical and content creation mailing lists to discuss questions and issues with other licensees and Epic Games.
All Unreal Tournament 2003 source code for example purposes only.
All Unreal Championship (Xbox) source code for example purposes only (console licensing restrictions apply).
Updates for the duration of the license period.

Portability and Consoles
Highly modular, object-oriented foundation with few hard coded limits maintains portability and allows the Unreal engine to evolve through many generations of technological advances.
Unreal runs well on and is optimized for Windows PC, Macintosh (OS X 10.2.6+), GNU/Linux-x86 PC and Xbox.
Playstation2 and Gamecube source also available.
64-bit Windows and Linux ports using AMD Hammer x86-64 also available.

AI
Built-in state-based AI support for advanced creatures and bots.
Bots know how to use all player movement options, weapons and inventory.
Bots know how to use switches, ladders, navigate past platforms, use doors, snipe and more.
Physics-based AI makes complex actor movement straightforward.
Animation system ties into AI via notification system, with animation playing, blending, tweening, looping, and other triggers, such as footstep sounds.
Pathnode-based AI navigation system supports complex route evaluation, alarm points, and more.
AI properties are exposed to level designers for setting up patrol routes, individual creature moods and more.

Physics
Integrated physics-driven animation eases network programming and animation replication.
Collision cylinders provide highly optimized collision detection for humanoid characters and items.
Convex collision volumes allow for simplified, optimized collision for geometrically complex map areas.
Integrated Karma 1.2 rigid body physics engine by Mathengine allows for ragdoll physics, dual vehicle physics systems and more.
Karma license now included with UnrealEngine2 license at no additional cost.
Optional Karma 1.3 integration also available at no additional cost.

Rendering
Revamped renderer expands upon the proven dynamic scene graph technology of the previous generation Unreal engine.
DSG (dynamic scene graph) is a natural extension of portal technology. A dynamic scene graph consists of a root node, corresponding to the player?s immediate surroundings, and a hierarchical tree of child nodes. Each DSG node has a coordinate system transformation, clipping volume, and other rendering state associated with it. Unreal?s rendering engine constructs a dynamic scene graph on-the-fly as each frame is rendered. New scene graph nodes are generated as the viewer?s visibility propagates outward through portals. Scene graph nodes are the basic building blocks of many realistic effects and special effects, such as:
Mirror surfaces.
Semi-reflective materials, such as marble surfaces which partially reflect light.
Non-Euclidean, redirectable "warp" portal effects for seeing through teleporters.
Seeing through windows into an infinite sky zone in which a sky, planets, mountains, and other objects are constructed.
Skies and backgrounds with independent coordinate systems for independent translation and rotation.
The strength of DSG rendering is that all of the node effects are fully interoperable, limited only by practicality. For example, once a mirror DSG node is defined, mirrors are automatically supported recursively (for hall-of-mirror type effects), mirrors work with skies, mirrors work with warp portals, warp portals work with skies, etc.
Enhanced portal-based visibility system includes "antiportal" occluders, supported as two dimensional sheets or three dimensional volumes, to cull objects or portals within a zone.
Full support for hardware texturing and lighting on modern video cards (ATI? RADEON?- and NVIDIA? GeForce?-class) for the highest possible polygon throughput. In current products:
Real-time scenes of 10,000 to 100,000 or more fully textured and lit polygons in view are common.
Static mesh instanced geometry comprises the bulk of the geometry detail, often representing a third or more of overall polygon count.
Instanced geometry can either be rendered batched by material or not for additional memory usage versus frame rate flexibility.
Skeletal animated characters average 2000-3000 polygons each, driven by some 30 bones, with two to three influences per vertex.
Rendering subsystems include Direct3D, OpenGL, and now RAD Game Tools? Pixomatic software renderer for Windows PCs.
Pixomatic software renderer license now included with UnrealEngine2 license at no additional cost.

Lighting
Static lighting through the use of vertex coloring and light maps for high resolution lighting without the runtime calculation overhead.
Lights can be any color and brightness. Any object in the world can act as a light (static or dynamic).
Multiple light types are supported: directional, point lights, and spot lights.
Dynamic lighting provides vertex lighting for static and animated meshes creating realistic lighting effects.
Numerous light effects (blinking, wavering, etc.) for dynamic lights.
Projected textures allow the simulation of complex dynamic lighting and shadowing effects on all surfaces, including player shadows and flashlights.

Effects
Comprehensive particle system allows for countless diverse configurations, supporting sprites, meshes, lines, beams, all with collision, a multitude of movement, lifetime and texture options, and all manipulatable in real-time in the editor.
Fluid surfaces allow for dynamic water simulation, supporting ambient ripples, targeted oscillations (for player or other disturbances), clamping for realistic wave boundaries, surface vertex alpha blending for texture effects and more, all independent of water physics.
Distance fog provides a greater sense of depth indoors and out, while additionally improving rendering performance in large outdoor areas.
Real-time, in-engine movies (machinima) support through "Matinee" functionality provides comprehensive camera, actor and effects direction.

Terrain
Eight- and sixteen-bit heightmap terrain system allows for fast, complex terrain rendering with smooth gradients and dynamic addition and subtraction of chunks in real-time.
Texture layers allow you to have multiple textures atop the heightmap with variable eight-bit alpha for seamless transitions and easy creation of non-repeating land.
Comprehensive suite of terrain manipulation tools allows you to raise, lower, raze and flower the heightmap in real time.
Decoration layers allow for coarsely sorted flora detail such as grass.
New terrain system optimizations now available further improve rendering time and decrease memory usage.

Textures
Traditional texture mapping support on all surfaces add detail to featureless geometry to increase realism while keeping polygon counts low.
Material support allows a single surface to render multiple textures with various operations, such as panning, alpha blending, modulation and more.
Easy to use mechanism for scrolling, rotating, and scaling textures via artist settings. This feature can be used in a static or dynamic fashion for elaborate animated effects.
Detail textures add extremely close-up details to surfaces, such as fine wood grain, pock marks on brick surfaces, or scoring to metal.
Hardware accelerated, compressed, high resolution texture support allows for individual 32-bit textures of up to 2048x2048 pixels in size, while consuming significantly less video and system memory than traditional RGBA or 8-bit texture formats.
All textures support up to twelve levels of mip-mapping, including mipping down to a solid color.
Texture animation sequences with variable playback rate are also supported.

CSG Brushes
Subtractive and additive geometry allows for rapid construction of level shells on which to hang other types of geometry.
Complex geometry, limited only by practicality, can be imported from DXF or ASC files.

Static Meshes
Hardware accelerated, instanced geometry primitives allow your artists to create batches of detailed, reusable content for level designers to creatively rotate and resize into multiple diverse levels.
Properly designed static meshes ensure consistent appearance across your levels -- without areas looking identical.
A static mesh primitive can be reused throughout a level while only consuming a single instance worth in memory.
Only practical limits on polygon count.

Vertex Meshes
Keyframe-animated geometry useful for animated decorations within your levels.
Interpolation support enables perfectly fluid animation at high frame rates: an animation saved at 15FPS can be smoothly played back at 40FPS.
Tweening support allows smooth flow between disjoint animation sequences.
Only practical limits on polygon count and animation length.

Skeletal Meshes
Hierarchical skeletal animated, smooth skinned geometry ideal for animated characters and complex animated geometry in your levels.
Multiple channels of animation, each with a variable blending percentage, allows for several animations to be played simultaneously.
Hardware-accelerated smooth skinning through a vertex shader is currently being tested for further decreasing rendering time.
Improved skeletal mesh compression now available, offering an additional 50% reduction in memory usage.
No hard coded limits on polygon counts and bone counts.

Audio
Standards compliant OpenAL-based audio subsystem on Windows, Linux and Macintosh, DirectSound3D-based on Xbox.
supports 3D spatialization, attenuation, pitch and Doppler shifting
supports EAX 3.0 effects on compatible cards (exposed to both level designers and UnrealScript).
Ogg Vorbis streaming sound and music support on Windows, Linux and Macintosh, offering higher quality audio with smaller file sizes than MP3, without royalties; Windows Media Audio on Xbox.
includes OpenAL wrapper with 100% software fallback path for utmost compatibility on Windows, Linux and Macintosh.

Networking
Advanced game networking capabilities with years of refinements.
Support both small LAN games and large-scale, server-based Internet games.
Network code tolerates low-bandwidth connections with up to 300ms latency and 15% packet loss.
Gamers can travel between Unreal servers much like browsing web pages, with teleporters providing links between servers.
Automatic downloading of new content (levels, textures, sound, models, scripts) while browsing Unreal servers.
Java-style client-side scripting (simulation) enables high performance even over high latency connections.

UI and Localization
Object-oriented, highly expandable in-game UI and control system.
Customizable, hierarchical subsystem-oriented "preferences" setting dialog for run-time modification of object parameters and other engine settings.
Native support for localization of text to UNICODE via replaceable fonts.
Built-in UnrealScript and C++ support for externalization of all text, enabling non-programmer translation.

Programming
Programming APIs in C++ and UnrealScript, an interpreted, object-oriented language similar to Java:
Garbage collected.
100% portable: UnrealScript code runs on all supported platforms without recompiling.
"Everything is an object."
Safe client-side "sandbox" execution model.
Fully featured set of data types and operators.
Comprehensive script-side TCP and UDP networking support, as well as game-relation functionality such as replication, priority management, reliability and remote procedure calls.
Native language support for hierarchical finite state machines, ideal for AI and complex player code.
Complete four-way calling interface between C++ and UnrealScript, enabling development of complete projects in either language.
Rich, extensible, object-oriented class hierarchy that maps naturally onto game concepts (players, monsters, inventory, triggers, etc.).
Highly modularized and replaceable, with most Unreal game code segregated from general engine code.
C++ interface based on object model similar in style to MFC.
Supports dynamic loading of DLLs and scripts on demand for modularity and efficient memory usage.
Robust debugging environment, with VC++ debugger support, a flexible assertion system, and try-catch call stack display for tracking down errors in the field.
Built-in UnrealScript profiling, as well as comprehensive game, engine and networking performance counters.
Separate UnrealScript debugging application eases testing of complicated scripts, including breakpoints, variable watches and more.

Pricing
The following pricing options apply specifically to games published through normal channels:

Option A - License Fee and Royalty
Non-refundable, non-recoupable license fee paid on execution of agreement: US$350,000 for one of the available platforms, plus US$50,000 for each additional platform.

Royalty: 3% royalty calculated on the wholesale price of the product, less any console manufacturer license fees and/or manufacturing costs. In the case of a massively-multiplayer online game, we add language that calculates our royalty on all revenue (subscriptions, ads, traditional retail game sales, etc.) generated by the game.

Option B - License Fee, No Royalties
Non-refundable, non-recoupable license fee paid on execution of agreement: US$750,000 for one of the available platforms, plus US$100,000 for each additional platform.

Royalty: 0%

Options for mod developers, non-commercial and educational projects are coming soon!

I do like the sound of that. Probably good to put together a demo with it.

SERIOUS ENGINE:
www.croteam.com
1. Complex Architecture

The Serious Engine can render huge distances and complex architecture. It is not enough to just make things big. You need to have both large scale architecture and small scale details at the same time. We can render huge towns, beautiful terrains and complex rooms. Reconstruction of ancient Egyptian temple complex at Karnak (from Serious Sam) demonstrates sense of scale and complexity of architecture.

2. Realistic Rendering

Pictures from Serious Engine may look awkward, different from what you can see elsewhere. That's because they are filled with bright, natural colors. Serious Engine has powerful lighting and texturizing abilities, so we can avoid dark, gray, nihilistic colors. Ability to create bright, realistic scenes does not imply that dark and moody atmospheres cannot be achieved. On the contrary, Serious Engine has ability to create moody scenes at least comparable with competitive engines.

3. Both Indoor and Outdoor Environment

Today, supporting both indoor and outdoor environments is a must. Serious Engine was designed so that there is absolutely no difference between indoor and outdoor settings. Picture demonstrates both settings.

4. Loads of Enemies

Serious Engine has highly optimized physics and very advanced LOD. That combination allows tons of enemies at the same time. Recent rapid development in the area of 3D gaming has yielded lots of astonishing games. But none did reproduce the massive fight experiences so usual in 2D arcade gaming. Serious Sam takes advantage of engine's LOD algorithm and optimized physics, creating furious action in good old arcade fashion.

5. Powerful and Intuitive Editors

Both model and level editing utilities (Serious Modeler and Serious Editor) are standard windows applications. That means that you will work within known interface: standard menus, toolbars, tool tips, data tips, drag and drop, context menus, clipboard operations, multi-document environment, windows and split views, ... Employing 'What-You-See-Is-What-You-Get' paradigm and intuitive interface, Serious Editor is easy to use but powerful and professional application, what makes it a strong reason to license Serious engine.

6. Real-Time CSG Operations

Almost all 3D engines of today use CSG (constructive solid geometry) operations as main editing tool. They are very complicated mathematically and therefore processor intensive. It takes some time to perform CSG operation. Serious Editor handles CSG operation in edit time and you always work directly on the final level. That means that you don't have to compile your world and wait to see how it looks like. It is always up to date.

7. Real-Time Shadows

The Serious Engine has shadow rendering algorithms so powerful that it calculates shadows as you move lights in editor. That is extremely important when decorating interiors. You do not have to wait any more to see how your world will look. In the Serious Engine, shadows are always up to date. If you add a column, it will immediately cast shadows.

8. Embedded Game Testing

This feature confirms that Serious engine has true real-time editing tools. Embedded game testing enables you to play currently edited world in-place, inside window where you edit it. All components (textures, sounds,...) needed for game testing are already in memory and the game starts immediately. Started game is rendered using rendering preferences chosen from the Serious Editor. You can play in wireframe, with or without textures, shadows, models, etc. Embedded game testing, CSG and shadow casting in real-time save a lot time in the game development process, shortening the development cycle.

9. Multi-Direction Gravity

Advanced 6 DOF (degrees of freedom) physics of Serious engine (never seen before) introduces influence of few gravities in same time. Gravity can have variable angle and value so you can expect weirdest death-match levels (with players running across ceilings, walls, inside spheres, around cones, ...).

10. Full 6 DOF Physics

Without support for 6 DOF (degrees of freedom) and accurate rotating physics, an engine is not able to create any other gravity than standard, top-down gravity. Object cannot usually turn upside down, nor fall to the side. Physics in Serious Engine enables realistic movement when standing on rocking object (ship), multiple angled gravities, catapults, rotating platforms and similar.

11. Portal Technology

Portal technology overrides 3D space, introducing worm holes and four dimensional spaces. This cutting edge technology feature allows effects like displaying huge valleys inside tiny boxes in a room. This effect is ideal for displaying teleports or magic mirrors. Portals are not fixed, they can move or rotate. Also, in the Serious Engine, portals are not limited to a single polygon, but can also be applied to entire 3D objects.

12. Reflections

Besides simple surfaces made of stone, wood, metal and similar, Serious Engine supports reflective and semi-reflective surfaces of all kinds. Interior of a gothic chapel can be reflected in marble floor. Lake water can reflect medieval castle and surrounding scenery. Mirrors don't always have to be static, they can move and rotate.

13. Volumetric Fog

Layered fog is a must-have feature for a modern 3D game engine. Serious Engine extends this to provide fully dynamic and customizable layered fog. Fog can move, rotate, change color or density etc. in real time with no performance penalty. It can be used to create layer of fog in a room or to cover bottom of a valley with morning mist. Dynamically moving fog and vertical walls of fog are unique features of Serious Engine.

14. Haze

Haze is a natural phenomena caused by light being reflected from particles in atmosphere. Use of haze greatly contributes to reality of rendered picture. Pictures rendered without haze look synthetic and unnatural, whereas proper use of haze gives a photo-realistic look. Haze also removes difference between world and background in a way that transition between them cannot be determined.

15. Object LOD

The Heart of the Serious Engine is advanced level of detail (LOD) algorithm. With up to 32 levels of detail per object, its power allows hundreds or even thousands of objects in a scene while still maintaining a playable frame rate.

16. World LOD

By being able to manually create LOD on world, you can easily define trade-off between detail and speed based on distance. This technique is used to render buildings that are detailed in close up views, yet not eating up the speed when viewed from far away.

17. Reflection Mapping

Reflection mapping (also known as 'environment mapping') is technique that simulates reflective materials. From Serious Editor designer can create environment map that will exactly reflect certain area of the world. Combination of reflection mapping and specularity makes metallic and glass objects look the way they should, at last.

18. Specularity

Specular highlight is an effect that light creates on surfaces of shiny reflective objects. Serious Engine enables designer to define custom specularity values for material. This beautiful effect greatly improves quality of rendered pictures. It is used for metallic, plastic and glass objects.

19. Bump Mapping

Bump mapping is used to add detail to textures. Visibility of these details changes as light angle is changed. Bump mapping looks good on stone statues, wooden objects, rusted metal, etc. Serious Engine uses multi-pass emboss algorithm that can reproduce bump mapping even without dedicated hardware, and gives specular bump look, instead of ordinary diffuse bumps.

20. Split Screen Support

Up to four players can play simultaneously on same screen. They can play cooperative or deathmatch game. By extending that feature and combining it with network system, up to four players per computer can play in a network game. 'Screen in Screen' feature allows player to see actions of his teammates or to view trough camera that can be placed anywhere inside level.

21. Custom Backgrounds

Backgrounds in Serious Engine are completely custom. You can create separate part of world that will be your background. It is very easy to create realistic 360 deg. background, stormy sky background, stars traveling at high speed, backgrounds with moving objects (birds, comets, sun), etc. Only designer's imagination is a limit for background creation.

22. Lens Flares

This is a well known effect today, but yet still very beautiful. When looking in direction of a light source, eye notices lens flares or corneas around it. Lights cannot appear like lights without proper lens flares.

23. Lens Reflections

This is actually an effect caused by film cameras and photo-cameras which have multiple lenses. Modern humans are accustomed to seeing it in movies and on artistic photographs. The effect looks nice and creates convincing feeling of huge power of light source that emanates lens flares. Effect is usually seen as a series of circles and rings in spectral colors emerging from a strong light source. This is procedural effect so it is highly modifiable to create custom effects for different light sources.

24. Glaring Effect

Glaring effect is simulation of eye response to bright light. When eye looks at bright light source, biochemical mechanisms in it react in such way that the entire picture appears brighter. That happens when you try to look at the sun. It is painful and you cannot see anything but white shining. With the combination of lens reflections and this effect in Serious Engine, sun is not just a circle in the skies. It shines so strong, you can't look in that direction. This is also a procedural effect so it is highly modifiable to create custom effects for different light sources.

25. Procedural Particle System

Particles are used to create smoke trails, 3D waterfalls and many other special effects. Flexible procedural particle system implemented into Serious Engine enables you to create wide range of your own effects.

26. Directional Light

Directional light (known also as 'distant light') is light that has parallel light beams. Sun and Moon are examples of directional lights. Worlds lightened with directional lights appear very realistic and open spaces just cannot look convincing without it.

27. Model Shadows

Serious Engine can calculate shadows of models taking in account texture transparency. This it is extremely powerful tool for interior decoration. You can create model of a lamp with semi-transparent drawing on lamp planes, place light source inside lamp and drawing will produce very complicated shadows on surrounding walls. When model (like a statue) casts shadows onto world, it looks like it is part of a world and not inserted object.

28. Illuminating Polygons

Lighting engine can be told to let only beams from certain lights trough certain polygons. Skillful usage of this feature results in feeling of sun shining trough a window. It can be used for lava illumination or vitrajes.

29. Illumination Maps

This feature of shadow engine creates an effect of illuminating area on a wall. With it, believable futuristic lighted architecture, buildings and spaceships covered with thousands of tiny bright light sources can be crafted.

30. Day-Night Changes

By modifying light color in real time, having sun travel across the sky and changing the background, Serious Engine can reproduce convincing feeling of night falling. Daylight atmosphere can smoothly change into golden sunset and finally into moonlight.

31. Animating Lights

This is a classic feature implemented by all decent engines. Serious Engine has intuitive color animation editor that allows you to create your own color animations. Animating lights can be used for torch flickering, neon light pulsating, sun color changing, disco lights, etc.

32. Dark Lights

Dark lights work inverse from normal lights. Long known as a valuable tool for 3D graphics designers, Serious Engine brings this classic industry effect to the 3D gaming. Because they subtract light inside range of influence, dark lights are used to create moody atmosphere that is hard to achieve by other lighting methods.

33. Light Transition Smoothing

Special type of light is used to create smooth transitions between sectors with different ambient lights. This effects eliminates sharp transitions where two environments of different ambient intensities (like indoor and outdoor) meet.

34. Layered Texturing

Serious Engine allows up to three texture layers on each polygon. Each texture layer can be stretched, sheared, rotated and translated. One layer can, for example, be used as a hyper-texture so texture will look good from huge distance. Another layer can be used to show detail when close. Stains texture applied over base texture will completely eliminate annoying tiling.

35. Multiple Layer Mixing Modes

Texture layers can be combined through several functions. Mixing textures with different functions results in completely new look of textures. This way you can use two same textures in many combinations and produce different results.

36. Texture Coloring

Each of three texture layers can be separately colorized. Along with previous two features, texture colorizing creates a very strong texturing engine. When you mix layers with different functions, stretch them and colorize, you have feeling of creating new textures. This way you texturize whole level with few textures without getting the feeling of texture tiling or repetition.

37. Procedural Mixing

Mix function between two layers is controlled from game code. That means that you can create custom texture mixing functions and produce all kinds of texture pulsating or smooth transition from opaque to transparent. This feature is used to create special effects (room transformation, futuristic flickering, etc.).

38. Hierarchical Multipart Objects

Skin models can be combined and procedurally controlled. That way, animation of running legs can be created and attached to upper body with numerous animations. Upper body is then separately rotated around handle. Hierarchical multipart model system allows changing body parts or weapons.

39. Object Morphing

Serious Engine implements skin models with hierarhical linking. Skin models enable object morphing. You can create all kinds of enemy transformation: enemy can drop from ceiling, rise from the floor as in 'Terminator 2', transform from rock etc.

40. Animation Smoothing

The Serious Engine automatically calculates inter-frame positions for animation smoothing. This technique results in perfectly smooth object animations, while still maintaining low memory usage. Objects can switch between animations automatically at the right moment to produce continuous motion.

41. Multiple Rendering Types

Model rendering engine supports many rendering types. Designer can define polygon groups (surfaces). Each surface can have its own rendering attributes. Surface can be transparent (palms, windows), translucent (glowing signs), add (emanating objects, explosions), multiply, etc. Each surface can be full bright or double sided, can have colorized specularity, reflections or bump.

42. Texture Patches

This feature is ability of the Serious Engine to place many little textures (patches) over model's base texture. It is used to create blood stains on enemies, cracks on vases, animated patches, etc.

43. Terrain Generation

Terrain is one of primitives used for world generation. Terrain can be raised manually or can be displaced using height map. When texturized with appropriate texture map it produces believable and beautiful outdoor environments.

44. Projected Mapping

This kind of mapping seamlessly applies texture over displaced polygons. It is used when texturizing terrains (when is projected from above), caves or arcs.

45. Projective Texture Scrolling

Serious Engine supports procedural texture scrolling. Any kind of texture movement can be programmed. Projected texture scrolling enables scrolling of tiled texture over displaced surfaces. You can use projected texture scrolling to create traveling of cloud shadows over mountains and castles.

46. Water FX

This is a procedural effect that simulates movement of water. Physics of water particle movement is extremely complex but this algorithm perfectly emulates nature. As in nature, water movement is never repeated (looped). That is why water looks so different then usual repeating animations, and much better.

47. Fire FX

This is another procedural effect. It simulates physical behaviour of fire particles. Result is a convincing, non looping fire, with blazes and sparks outbursting from it in a natural fashion.

48. Plasma FX

This procedural feature can be used to create wide range of effects: lightning, burning, waterfall simulation, dancing particles, fountains, etc. Procedural system allows programming of new effects if needed. Creative designer can produce spectacular effects by using different plasmas.

49. Variable Friction

Friction is a physical parameter of a surface that enables or disables sliding. It makes a difference between walking on firm ground, skating on ice or suddenly stepping on a banana skin. Custom friction parameters are defined for any surface (ground, ice, stone, sand etc.), and each polygon then uses one of those.

50. Force Fields and Contents

Content types are usual in today's engines. But Serious Engine is not limited to a given set of predefined ones. Force fields are used to create areas where definable virtual force affects you. Some areas of a level can have different contents (lava, water, etc.).

51. Event Driven AI Language

Complete new language has been created for easier AI programming. It is C++ based language with incorporated event handling system. This language enables easy programming of complex AI behaviour.

52. 32 Bit Textures

All textures in Serious Engine are stored in 32 bit color, but the rendering engine supports both 16-bit and 32-bit rendering, and 16-bit and 32-bit textures. This enables user to balance between picture quality and speed. Special 'optimal mode' for texture quality is used by default, which uses 32-bits only for those textures and shadows which will actually benefit from it, while still maintaining performance much better then in full 32-bit mode. That is specially suitable for middle ranged accelerators that can render 32-bit textures, but not fast enough to have it all in 32-bit.

53. Still Frame Effect

You can freeze action and watch it from different angles (just like in famous 'Matrix' movie). Examine all the details of paused frame: projectiles in the air along with smoke trails, freezed explosions, enemies stopped in moment of attacking, grenades in the air,... The feeling is impressive.

54. Powerful Sound Support

Serious Engine features a high quality custom sound engine. It supports: HRTF (head related transfer function), IID (interaural intensity difference), ITD (interaural time difference), doppler effect and speed of sound. Only when you first hear a rocket whizzing past your ear you start to enjoy real 3D sound experience. Speed of sound is a unique feature of Serious Engine. When a rocket explodes very far away, you first see the explosion and then you hear the sound.

55. Load/Save in Multiplayer

For the first time in world of 3D engines, Serious Engine is able to save multiplayer game and continue it afterwards. This feature along with multiple angled gravity, 6 DOF physics and split screen results in complete new multiplayer experience.

56. Level Transition

Serious Engine implements smart level transition system. It enables multiple level entrances and exits. When you exit world, situation is freezed so it will be continued when you return. Using this feature you can create complex world connection structures.

57. MP3 Music

Serious Engine can play MP3 music files using Amp11lib player library. This is better than using CD tracks, since music can be controlled during the game and the files are much smaller in size. It cuts down the developement cycle for musicians and at the same time allows interactive music changes.

58. Multi Language Support

To support world-wide distribution, Serious Engine is enabled with localization support. Text is extracted directly from code and worlds using a custom tool and then translated. It supports incremental translations after code or data changes or updates.

59. Dynamic music

Serious Engine can change music according to certain events. For example, peace music is played when there are no enemies in sight, but when they attack, it switches over to more adrenaline pumping music. You can define several levels of music dynamics that are switched according to enemy count and their strength.

Skeletal animation.

Quake and Quake2 engines.

Free from Id software.
http://www.idsoftware.com

can be downloaded from above site.
Rather primitive really, 8-bit colour pallettes errr there both 3d and there are some very nice engine mods available built on top of these, the previously mentioned tenebrae being one.

Auran Jet
http://www.auran.com/jet/

DirectX 8.0 and OpenGL Support

Jet's rendering architecture abstracts the hardware and API to include support for Microsoft DirectX 8.0 and OpenGL 1.2. This allows applications to be written to Jet's rendering API without concern for the underlying hardware API ultimately used.

3D Studio Max v2.5-4.0 Mesh and Animation Exporter Plugin

Provided with Jet are 3D Studio Max plugins for exporting meshes and animations into Jet's native format. The mesh exporter supports exporting standard indexed meshes and progressively reducing meshes. Separate plugin versions are provided to support 3D Studio Max versions 2.5 through 4.0.

Alias | Wavefront Maya v3.0-4.0 Mesh and Animation Exporter Plugin
Provided with Jet are Alias | Wavefront plugins for exporting meshes and animations into Jet's native format. The mesh exporter supports exporting standard indexed meshes and progressively reducing meshes. Separate plugin versions are provided to support Alias | Wavefront Maya versions 3.0 through 4.0.

Extensive Animation System

Jet provides a skeletal key-framed animation system supporting additional features such as:

Queueing - Animations may be buffered for playing one after another;
Interpolation - Bone positions and orientations are interpolated between keyframes to ensure the animation is smooth, regardless of the framerate;
Blending - Two or more animations may be blended together, either to transition from one animation to another, or simply to create a new animation;
Sub-bone Animation - Animations may be selectively applied to specific bones (and their children) enabling, for example, a character to wave while walking, running or riding a horse; and
Event Syncronization - A variety of event types may be attached to selected animation frames to synchronize attachments, sound effects, code, and similar.
The Animation example, as seen here, demonstrates the sub-bone animation where the arm crosses the chest whilst the character is running, these animations seemlessly blended together at run time.

Object Attachment Support
Objects in a 3D scene may be attached to other objects at pre-determined attachment points. For rendering and animation purposes, attached objects are considered child objects. Thus, the movement of a sword attached to a character's hand is relative to the movement and animation of the character and its hand.

Hardware Transform and Lighting
Jet's renderer makes full use of any hardware texture and lighting (T&L) support detected.

Bump Mapping Support

Jet's renderer provides support for bump mapped materials on appropriate hardware. The Bump Mapping example demonstrates the Auran Jet logo protruding from a blue sphere. In this example the effects of a parallel light or omni light, as shown to the right, can be observed.

Cubic Environment Mapping Support

Cubic environment mapping is supported by Jet on appropriate hardware. The Cubic Envrionment Mapping example, as shown to the right, demonstrates a sphere that reflects its environment inside a textured box.

Dynamic Lighting Support
Jet's scene management provides support for dynamic lighting. Numerous types of light; including ambient, omni, parallel, and spot; may be added to a 3D scene. Optimized routines are used to determine and calculate the dynamic effects of these lights on objects in the scene.

Particle Effects System

Jet's particle effects system provides classes for managing particle emitters and dynamic modifiers. Individual emitters and modifiers are implemented as plugins promoting extensibility and reuse. The point, disc, rectangle, and ribbon emitters are provided as defaults, each of which may be modified using the color, field, swirl, or custom modifiers.

Multi-Texturing Support

Jet supports and abstracts multi-texturing extensions to DirectX and OpenGL. The Multi-texture example shows an object which is made up of two chunks. One chunk, the red end, is a simple NoTextureMaterial. The rest of the capsule uses a gloss material, which has three textures. A base diffuse texture, an alpha map texture and a reflective (in this case a spherical map) texture. The alpha texture is used to mask where the reflective texture will be applied. In this example, half of the alpha texture is full value and half is zero, therefore creating the appearence of the reflective texture only being on half of the chunk.

Progressive Mesh Reduction Support

Jet uses progressive mesh reduction to provide level of detail (LOD) support. Appropriate meshes can have their detail dynamically reduced in code. Progressive reduction can be setup to occur according to a mesh's distance from the camera, as a result of dynamically balancing an entire scene, or directly in code.

Projected Texture Support

Projected textures are supported by Jet on appropriate hardware. The Projected Texture example demonstrates the Auran Jet logo projected onto a teapot. Projected textures could also be used to cast "light" of an arbitrary shape, for example, dynamically casting light from a stained glass window onto other objects.

Vertex Program Support

Jet supports the use of vertex programs (a.k.a. vertex shaders) on appropriate hardware. Vertex programs enable custom 'programs' to be executed on vertices in the graphics hardware. The Vertex Program example demonstrates some animated grass and a flag in simulated wind.

Volumetric Shadow Support

Jet's lighting manager supports the generation of volumetric shadows. Thus, objects can cast their own shadow onto other objects. This can be seen in the Dynamic Lighting Manager example, where the green ball's shadow falls onto the white box.

Physics and Collision System Extension

This extension system provides an implementation of a functional physics and collision system. It will not be suitable for all applications as efficient physics and collision handling is very application dependent. The source code provided with this implementation illustrates how such a system might be built onto Jet when custom handling is required. The Collision example uses this system to create a box containing spheres which collide with one another and the box's walls.

Primitive Objects

A range of primitive objects are provided for rendering geometric shapes; line, plane, box, cone, cylinder, ellipse, ellipsoid, circle, sphere, etc. These are very useful for visual debugging. The Primitive Objects example demonstrates some of these classes which can be displayed in wireframe or solid and with different colors. The Primitive Objects example also demonstrates how to create custom geometric objects that are textured and lit.

Sprite System

The sprite system allows developers to create custom interfaces, overlays and other 2D elements. The Sprite example uses the Auran Jet logo to demonstrate the movement, rotation, sizing, and priority ordering of individual sprites.

Multiple Viewports
Multiple viewports can be created and positioned, sized and ordered by the developer to create, for example, a split screen for multi-player games or windows-on-windows. Simultaneously, each viewport can render from different camera perspectives or from cameras in different world
Price: USD$ 136.50 (Non-Commercial)
US$30,000 (commercial)

I realise that not everyone wants 3d or fps type games so I will dig up some info on other types of technology :)

http://catmother.sourceforge.net/

I havent looked over this one much, but basically catmother is a game dev company that went bust so they decided to release their tech, free
I'm not sure of the exact license, I'll get back to it tomorrow.

http://www.ca3d-engine.de/

This looks great and runs really well, still a few bugs though and still a lot more features to come,

Features:

Ca3D-Engine
High-quality, real-time 3D graphics
OpenGL hardware-accelerated rendering
BSP, PVS and Portal-based rendering
Naturally aligned textures
Cube-mapped skies (environment maps)
BMP, TGA, PNG and WAD file formats for all textures
MipMap application and linear filtering for both minification and magnification
Transparency (for glass, water, fences, grates, ...)
Particle Effect Engine
Resource management for efficient sharing of common textures, models, data, ...
"PreCaching" of resources for stutter-free animations

Multi-player network support
New, amazingly fast internet network code!
Optimized for minimum bandwidth requirements
Integrated tightly into Ca3DE (no unnecessary overhead of general-purpose network libraries)
Full client prediction (for movement, events, and weapons)
Delta compression for network packets

State-of-the-art lighting technology
First engine ever to combine LightMaps with dynamic lighting effects!
Radiosity-based, physically correct(!) lighting
Dynamic, shader-driven, per-pixel lighting for both worlds and models
Stencil buffer shadow volumes (everything casts shadows on everything!)
Support for diffuse-, normal-, bump-, specular-, and luminance-maps
Support for ATI and NVidia programmable GPUs and shaders
Shader-driven, multi-textured or 2-pass LightMap rendering
Soon: Spherical Harmonic Lighting...

Skeleton-based model rendering

Can hierarchically combine sub- and super-models
Can blend animations (e.g. the mixing of different upper and lower body animations)

Sound and music support

Employs FMOD
3D stereo sounds
Doppler effects
Can play MP3 and ogg-vorbis music files

Command Console access for in-game configuration
Display resolution and mode (full-screen or windowed) can be changed "in-game"

Realistic physics modeling for all world entities
Natural player movement
Accurate collision detection
6 degrees of freedom
Acceleration, Friction, Gravity, Water, Ladders, ...

Great portability, flexibility and easy extensibility
Well designed and documented C++ source code
Cross-platform and cross-compiler portable
Runs on Windows 95, 98, ME, NT, 2000, and XP
Runs on Linux
Dynamic link libraries (DLLs) control the engine
Simple to use interfaces make it easy to create entirely new games or applications (MODs) with Ca3DE
Development kit is freely available, including all tools and detailed documentation

Naturally, this list is not meant to be complete. The Ca3D-Engine is under constant development, and as such, it is best to regularly download and try out the latest demo.

Map compiling tools
The Ca3D-Engine operates with "worlds". Worlds are preprocessed input files, generated by a sequence of programs. Among these, are the three compiling tools, CaBSP, CaPVS and CaLight. To a large degree, these are responsible for the Ca3D-Engine's power, and each has interesting features of its own. Here is a very short overview from a users perspective:
CaBSP
builds the BSP tree,
removes outer parts of worlds, and
runs optimization passes for an ideal geometry.

CaPVS
pre-calculates the Potentially Visibility Set (PVS): one of the key features that makes Ca3DE so fast.

CaLight
Lightmap calculations are based on physically correct principles, thus adding a high degree of realism to the worlds.

[url="http://www.cubeengine.com/index.php4"]Cube Engine[/url]

Allows in-engine editing of geometry in full 3D (you fly around the map, point / drag stuff to select it / modify it), which can even be done simultaneously with others in multiplayer (a first!). Has simplistic but effective fine grain vertex lighting that looks like lightmapping and can do dynamic lights & shadows. Doesn't need any kind of map precompilation, even lighting is done on the fly. Has very simplistic quad-tree world structure that can do slopes (heightfields with caps) and slants, water, does decent collision detection & physics, has client/server networking that goes a long way in giving a lag-free game experience, and features a Doom/Quake-style singleplayer (2 game modes, savegames) and multiplayer (12 game modes, master server / server browser, demo recording) game with some uncompromising brutal oldskool gameplay.

Cool Engine by Novadex... responsible for the physics engine currently used in the Unreal engine..

[url]http://www.novodex.com/[/url]

http://student.ci.qut.edu.au/~n4675215/misc/NovaDex.jpg

Little DivX movie here
[url]http://student.ci.qut.edu.au/~n4675215/misc/NovaDex_DivX.avi[/url]

http://www.devmaster.net/engines

For a list of pretty much every engine (both low and high budget ;) ).

Finally, I remembered to include some non 3d engines:

ADVENTURE GAME STUDIO

http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/

Designed for making 2d point and click adventure games

So, is AGS for you? Well, that depends what you want to do. It is designed to create adventure games, in the classic point-and-click style. It is not designed to make platformers, straight RPG's, or any other type of game (although simple arcade sequences are of course possible).

As an overall summary of the features, we have:

Windows-based IDE for creating your games as quickly and easily as possible. For screenshots of the IDE, have a quick browse of the beginners' tutorial.
Native Windows, Linux (x86) and MS-DOS versions of the game engine, to maximise the number of people who can play your game.
Powerful "C"-style scripting language if you don't like point-and-click. But don't worry, most stuff can be done with your mouse in the editor instead if you prefer.
In the graphics arena, 256-colour, 16-bit colour and 32-bit colour are all supported - either go for that retro feel, or enjoy the benefits of no palette! It's up to you. Alpha-blended sprites are supported in 32-bit colour games.
Screen resolutions of 320x200, 320x240, 640x400, 640x480, and 800x600 are supported. Your game can be run full-screen or in a window.
For sound and music, you can use OGG, MP3, WAV, MOD, XM and MIDI files. Ambient location-dependant sounds, automatic footstep sounds, multiple sound channels and crossfading between music tracks are supported too.
Easily create talkie games if you like - speech is compiled into a single data file, which you can distribute as an optional download.
Point-and-click setting of reactions to game events, or a powerful C-like scripting language if you so prefer.
Easy inventory management - just define all the items in the editor, then use simple Give and Lose commands during the game.
Almost everything is customizable, from the GUI you use to the mouse cursor graphics. A standard Sierra GUI is supplied, but user-made templates of other GUIs can be downloaded.
Have up to 150 characters roaming your world - they each have their own inventory and can be smoothly scaled and lit in different areas. 2, 4 and 8-directional walking animations are supported.
Multiple player characters, such as in Maniac Mansion and Day of the Tentacle, are possible too.
Scrolling rooms are supported by simply importing an image larger than the screen resolution.
Lucasarts-style conversation system should you want to use it.
Translations of your game to other languages are easy to make, and can be distributed seperately as add-on packs.
Plugin system which allows more advanced developers to add extra functionality to AGS.
Compile your game into a single EXE file for distribution. Digital music and voice samples can also be compiled into seperate files to allow for optional downloads. You can of course set a custom icon for the produced EXE file.
The game script is compiled to byte-code when you save the game, to maximise the speed of the engine.
All the standard things you would expect, such as game Save and Load features, automatic pathfinding, sprite mirroring, walk-behinds, hotspots, objects, cutscenes, animations, timers, and so forth.
If you decide that AGS is for you, then visit the Download and Tutorial pages to get started.

Game Maker.

http://www.cs.uu.nl/people/markov/gmaker/index.html

Cool for making 2d sprite based games like in the days of the SNES, I downloaded it and it seems easy to use, havent given it a proper bash yet.

Game Maker is fantastic.. i have gone leaps and bounds since using this tool.. also the community is enormous.. i recommend it to anybody wanting to make an arcade game especially but you can use it to make much, much more than simple 2D games (but yes, it makes them very well!)

version 6.1 is the latest & best version.. DON'T BE PUT OFF THAT IT NEEDS REGESTRATION.. the tool comes 99% complete, it is more than enough to do almost anything u need to do, the reg version just unlocks extra eyecandy and CD accessing etc..

A GREAT TOOL FOR BEGINNERS ALSO (uses drag n drop commands AND code)

if u get it.. just add me to msn and i will help you [B)]
>> flavour_injecter@hotmail.com

me109 - that linked image is now prompting for student login... :(

*gasps in shock*

No one mentioned Ogre!
http://ogre3d.org
LGPLed and EXTREMELY powerful - easily comparable to commercial engines and it has been used in commercial games. I've used Irrlicht, own Auran Jet, looked at Crystal Space and also Ca3D, but if you take a good free physics engine (ODE) or use an existing game framework based on Ogre's graphics you really can't go wrong.

Ca3D didn't seem that special - the GPL engine QFusion is better IMHO, or just use Quake 3 ;)
Irrlicht was ok but Ogre is much more powerful in the long run and faster too.
Crystal Space looked complex - I stayed away from it as a result
Jet would be great if Auran finally got around to releasing a newer version... Jet 1.1 is easily eclipsed by Ogre or even QFusion or Quake 3. It most definately wasn't a good purchase which is unfortunate :(

btw, QFusion is based on Quake 2 but is nearly a clone of Quake 3 and it has new features too. It came out before Q3 hence my enthusiasm towards it - Q3 development is progressing rather slowly unfortunately.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/l33t/
If you're after a 'ready to go' engine - not much beats this one or Quake 3.

quote:Originally posted by Rohan

*gasps in shock*

No one mentioned Ogre!
http://ogre3d.org
LGPLed and EXTREMELY powerful

You've hit a big problem with OGRE. It's VERY cool, but to comply with the LGPL you have to make all your object code publicly available.

If anyone feels like making some trouble try asking Bioware for all the object code to NWN- the Linux and Mac versions use SDL (which is LGPLed). Legally they have to give it to you, but I doubt they'd want to very much at all.

AFAIK, *L*GPL [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGPL"]does not require that at all[/url].

quote:Originally posted by mcdrewski

AFAIK, *L*GPL [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGPL"]does not require that at all[/url].

See the preamble
quote:
If you link other code with the library, you must provide
complete object files to the recipients, so that they can relink them
with the library after making changes to the library and recompiling
it. And you must show them these terms so they know their rights.

and section 5
quote:
5. A program that contains no derivative of any portion of the
Library, but is designed to work with the Library by being compiled or
linked with it, is called a "work that uses the Library". Such a
work, in isolation, is not a derivative work of the Library, and
therefore falls outside the scope of this License.

However, linking a "work that uses the Library" with the Library
creates an executable that is a derivative of the Library (because it
contains portions of the Library), rather than a "work that uses the
library". The executable is therefore covered by this License.
Section 6 states terms for distribution of such executables.

When a "work that uses the Library" uses material from a header file
that is part of the Library, the object code for the work may be a
derivative work of the Library even though the source code is not.
Whether this is true is especially significant if the work can be
linked without the Library, or if the work is itself a library. The
threshold for this to be true is not precisely defined by law.

If such an object file uses only numerical parameters, data
structure layouts and accessors, and small macros and small inline
functions (ten lines or less in length), then the use of the object
file is unrestricted, regardless of whether it is legally a derivative
work. (Executables containing this object code plus portions of the
Library will still fall under Section 6.)

Otherwise, if the work is a derivative of the Library, you may
distribute the object code for the work under the terms of Section 6.
Any executables containing that work also fall under Section 6,
whether or not they are linked directly with the Library itself.

It's not quite as harsh as I made it sound, but you have to be very careful about the header files you include from an LGPL lib or you could wind up in lots of trouble.

IMHO the LGPL needs revision to make it friendly for commercial use.

most LGPL use I've seen uses dynamic linking, meaning that that clause is moot. if you can drop in a new (compatible) .dll you satisfy the requirements.

lorien:
I think you have managed to confuse LGPL with GPL. LGPL means you only need to release your changes to the original code. eg. If you change the Ogre engine you only have to release those changes - not the rest of your code. Ogre has been used in commercial games this way as the LGPL allows for commercial use in closed source projects. GPL however *does* require you to release all your source for whoever wants it regardless of how little was changed. It's also difficult to circumvent as you have to put your code in a DLL that isn't required for your program to function. IMHO I can't see any problems with that license, share and improve I say.

There's been lots of discussions on this topic at QuakeSrc.org especially regarding GPL, LGPL etc

quote:Originally posted by Rohan

lorien:
I think you have managed to confuse LGPL with GPL. LGPL means you only need to release your changes to the original code. eg. If you change the Ogre engine you only have to release those changes - not the rest of your code. Ogre has been used in commercial games this way as the LGPL allows for commercial use in closed source projects. GPL however *does* require you to release all your source for whoever wants it regardless of how little was changed. It's also difficult to circumvent as you have to put your code in a DLL that isn't required for your program to function. IMHO I can't see any problems with that license, share and improve I say.

There's been lots of discussions on this topic at QuakeSrc.org especially regarding GPL, LGPL etc

I'm certainly not confused between the two. Those quotes are from the LGPL 2.1, as come in /usr/portage/licenses on every Gentoo Linux system.

I agree mcdrewski- that clause doesn't make much sense, which is why I think the LGPL needs revising.

The key point in that clause is inlined code. If your c++ LGPL lib has user written templates in it then you have lots of inlined code from an LGPL lib in your object files, and those object files will be covered by the LGPL is how I read it.

Grover is very concerned about this aspect of the LGPL too (calls it "LGPL Hell" I seem to remember)

Heh... ok. It just sounded like you were refering to the GPL. Anyway... I'm going off what I know and what I know says that people have used it commercially - Why would they risk open sourcing a closed source game just because of some technicality?

I reckon you could download the precompiled Ogre SDK, make a commercial game and still be compliant. If not then go bug the makers of those commercial games for their source [:P]

From the site linked by mcdrewski:

quote:The LGPL places copyleft restrictions on the program itself but does not apply these restrictions to other software that merely links with the program. There are, however, certain other restrictions on this software. Essentially, it must be possible for the software to be linked with a newer version of the LGPL-covered program. The most commonly used method for doing so is to use "a suitable shared library mechanism for linking". Alternatively, Statically linked library is allowed if either source code or linkable object files are provided.

Ie. LGPL does not extend to dynamically linked software if that software also works with other (newer / modified) versions of the library if they are binary compatible. API changes to the LGPL library would mean it is effectively a "different" library for these purposes. It does not extend to statically linked software if you provide a re-linking mechanism or source code for compilation.

You can use an LGPL'd engine with a your own project provided that it is dynamically linked. That is the intention of the LGPL. That is what it is for. You can argue technicalities in wording all you like however.

If you however modified an LGPL library for your project and dynamically linked it, then you are obligated to release the source to only the LGPL library.

The Ogre team make specific comments about this on their license page:
http://www.ogre3d.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Item…

No need to go spreading false information.

Another comment that should be made is that obligated to distribute source (to the modified LGPL library) does not mean to ANYONE. Only to people to whom you have distributed derived works (though you can distribute to anyone if you like). In the case of a commercial bought boxed game, this is only to those people who have obtained the box (ie a copy) via legal means.

Sorry Dragoon, I disagree, and accusing me of spreading false information when I posted the exact text of the license is not a way to make friends. There aren't too many people that are fans of python and bigworld, and that have used swig and/or boost to extend python in a games context btw, and I find the complete lack of info in your profile rather interesting.

That OGRE link you provided on the LGPL also says quote:The above is a precis, please read the full license agreement before downloading any source.

The interaction between open and closed code is a nightmare. Normally what matters is what the authors say you can do with their code. But the GPL and LGPL give rights to everyone, and this object code thing is one of those rights.

Sure it's OK to use LGPL code in commercial products, but you had better know what you are responsible for when you do so imho. I think most of us have seen what happens to companies that breach the GPL- I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of that sort of thing is what I'm saying.

Geez get over the personal attacks already. Why should I post information in my profile? Is it a rule of Sumea that I do?

Where do you derive "your" expert knowledge on the LGPL license from - have you had a specialist software copyright lawyer explain it to you? Do you know why the LGPL was created (intent is very important in law)?

From the history of the GPL link below:

quote:
"New library license We should by now have finished a new alternative General Public License for certain GNU libraries. This license permits linking the libraries into proprietary executables under certain conditions. The new library license actually represents a strategic retreat. We would prefer to insist as much as possible that programs based on GNU software must themselves be free. However, in the case of libraries, we found that insisting they be used only in free software tended to discourage use of the libraries, rather than encourage free applications. So, while we hope the new library license will help promote the development of free libraries, we have to regret that it was necessary. We will also be releasing a version 2 of the ordinary GPL. There are no real changes in its policies, but we hope to clarify points that have led to misunderstanding and sometimes unnecessary worry. "

Heres a list of reading for you:
http://www.free-soft.org/gpl_history/
http://www.intevation.de/pipermail/freegis-list/2003-August/001480.html
http://www.winehq.com/site/history

No I'm not a lawyer but a search on google regarding the LGPL provides countless examples of software using it, licensed under it and their interpretation of the LPL, and the purpose and history of the LGPL.

Telling people not to use Ogre for example because of the LGPL is doing the people who wrote the Ogre engine a great disservice. Sure you need to understand your obligations re the LGPL licensing of it, but those don't include making your source code available if you link to the Ogre libraries dynamically and fulfill the obligations of the LGPL.

In reality people can use LGPL software in their programs without too much worry is all I want to say. It isn't such a big problem as some are making it out to be on the web (a vocal minority).

PS: why hijack a thread about possible game engines with licensing issues? why not start another thread. Souri should come in and clean out the cruft from this sticky.

Edit: perhaps I should clarify the misinformation, you said:

quote:
You've hit a big problem with OGRE. It's VERY cool, but to comply with the LGPL you have to make all your object code publicly available.

If anyone feels like making some trouble try asking Bioware for all the object code to NWN- the Linux and Mac versions use SDL (which is LGPLed). Legally they have to give it to you, but I doubt they'd want to very much at all.

Ogre is dynamically linked to your app (unless you change it) hence you do not have to make object code available to allow relinking. All you need to do is allow them to drop in a new binary compatible Ogre DLL, a matter of simply copying.

Is NWN statically linked to the SDL? If so then they do by the license, if not they don't.

quote:Telling people not to use Ogre for example because of the LGPL is doing the people who wrote the Ogre engine a great disservice. Sure you need to understand your obligations re the LGPL licensing of it, but those don't include making your source code available if you link to the Ogre libraries dynamically and fulfill the obligations of the LGPL.

Amen to that! Ogre is quite well licenced, especially in comparison to other languages of it's quality. There's a site that lists game engines (http://www.devmaster.net/engines/) - Ogre is at the top for free engines, while the Torque Engine tops the other list. Is Ogre up to the quality of the Torque Engine or even Epic's Unreal Engine with regards to graphics? I believe so - the problem is Epic can afford artists todo kickass art that shows off their technology better [:P] While graphically Ogre hammers Torque quite convincingly - You have to pay for Torque yet it doesn't support the latest technology unless you shell out extra for it.

Want a free engine comparable to Epic's one or Torque then?
Graphics/Input : Ogre (or Irrlicht - it's really easy to use)
Physics : ODE (Only open source physics I know of)
Sound : OpenAL (There could be alternatives to this too)
Networking : RakNet (I think you can get a free commercial use licence) or HawkNL

Anything missing? That engine would be compatible on a wide variety of platforms too, you could even port most of it to a console or an entirely different platform given that those libraries are open source.

quote:If anyone feels like making some trouble try asking Bioware for all the object code to NWN- the Linux and Mac versions use SDL (which is LGPLed). Legally they have to give it to you, but I doubt they'd want to very much at all.

Bioware don't have to give you anything - They may have used SDL but so do many other commercial games. I doubt they'd use a library that required them to release the source to their games [:P] They probably have a horde of lawyers to back em up with this too [xx(]

LGPL can equal OK for commercial use - Games like Ankh or Supremacy: Four Paths To Power prove that. They use Ogre yet are commercial, closed source games.

I'm not flaming here - just presenting the facts. You don't have to spend heaps of money to get a good engine, most of the time it's the art of the 'superior' engines that makes them look better. Give an artist an engine and I think you'll find they'll make just as good stuff with a free one as they would with a pro engine. Even something as technically old as Quake 2 or 3 look great when in the right hands. Naturally looks aren't everything and IMHO the libraries I mentioned above form a pretty dang good complete, free, commercial quality engine.

quote:Originally posted by Dragoon

Geez get over the personal attacks already. Why should I post information in my profile? Is it a rule of Sumea that I do?

Of course not. But you're the one who started with personal attacks and you've come close a few times before. Makes me start thinking about who you might be. We met in Canberra didn't we? Having used Jet too is a bit of a hint.

quote:
Where do you derive "your" expert knowledge on the LGPL license from - have you had a specialist software copyright lawyer explain it to you? Do you know why the LGPL was created (intent is very important in law)?

Long years of using open source software. I've been using gcc since 1996 for example, and I compile my entire OS from source(gentoo). I was thinking about intent shortly after posting actually, imho the major intent of both the GPL and LGPL (and a major intention of the Free Software Foundation itself) is protecting free software.

From the history of the GPL link below:

quote:
"New library license We should by now have finished a new alternative General Public License for certain GNU libraries. This license permits linking the libraries into proprietary executables under certain conditions. The new library license actually represents a strategic retreat. We would prefer to insist as much as possible that programs based on GNU software must themselves be free. However, in the case of libraries, we found that insisting they be used only in free software tended to discourage use of the libraries, rather than encourage free applications. So, while we hope the new library license will help promote the development of free libraries, we have to regret that it was necessary. We will also be releasing a version 2 of the ordinary GPL. There are no real changes in its policies, but we hope to clarify points that have led to misunderstanding and sometimes unnecessary worry. "

Which is why they are working on version 3, and hopefully they'll clear up this mess in the LGPL while they're at it. I think the "strategic retreat" wasn't far enough.

quote:
Heres a list of reading for you:
http://www.free-soft.org/gpl_history/
http://www.intevation.de/pipermail/freegis-list/2003-August/001480.html
http://www.winehq.com/site/history

No I'm not a lawyer but a search on google regarding the LGPL provides countless examples of software using it, licensed under it and their interpretation of the LPL, and the purpose and history of the LGPL.

The purpose of the LGPL is to encourage use of free libs, while protecting open source software. That doesn't make it a free ride for commercial developers. I've never seen an LGPL lib used in a Microsoft product for example (but please let me know of any).

quote:

Telling people not to use Ogre for example because of the LGPL is doing the people who wrote the Ogre engine a great disservice. Sure you need to understand your obligations re the LGPL licensing of it, but those don't include making your source code available if you link to the Ogre libraries dynamically and fulfill the obligations of the LGPL.

I didn't say "don't use Ogre", I said "you have to be very careful about the header files you include from an LGPL lib or you could wind up in lots of trouble."

quote:
In reality people can use LGPL software in their programs without too much worry is all I want to say. It isn't such a big problem as some are making it out to be on the web (a vocal minority).

PS: why hijack a thread about possible game engines with licensing issues? why not start another thread. Souri should come in and clean out the cruft from this sticky.

And I suppose you were wondering why I got annoyed with you... Here's a hint: trying to discredit someone of > 400 posts who is using their own name and has lots of info in the profile doesn't work too well if you're staying anonymous and have 30 posts yourself. Common decency would be to let me know who you are.

As for talking about licensing in a thread about engines IMHO it's completely on topic. Personal attacks are not, and mine was a reaction.

As for your other comments I also said that I'd been a bit harsh about the LGPL, and corrected myself when I posted the actual text. I would talk to a lawyer before using LGPL code in a commercial app myself.

PS I can't believe I'm getting hassled for suggesting that a major license could do with a revision to make it friendlier to commercial developers!

Well, I was perhaps a bit harsh in my reply. My apologies. I don't see how the LGPL is commercially unfriendly, only that the terminology is not 100% clear and open to interpretation, and hence unfriendly. Microsoft have policies against using the GPL/LGPL internally I believe, but they do make some of their software interoperate with JBoss (LGPL) and release Interix under the GPL, and have sponsored projects licensed under the LGPL. Microsoft is only one commercial company, Sun Microsystems and IBM are major players that do use many LGPL libraries however.

From the Ogre point of view, I can imagine the LGPL providing an ideal license type. A more liberal license (BSD) would allow commercial companies to use Ogre and modify it without releasing anything back to the Ogre dev team (Microsofts TCP/IP stack was originally ripped from one of the BSDs), and a more restrictive license would prevent any interest at all from commercial companies and even hobbyists who feel that they might some day want to commercialise their projects. Under the LGPL a hobbyist or developer only has to release changes to Ogre if they eventually distribute it, their source and project can be released under a licensce of their choice, and if they don't want to do that they could negotiate a seperate license type with the Ogre team.

I still believe this thread isn't the place for a licensing discussion re engines. The license should be noted, but adds a lot of posts to wade through when someone is looking for the engines. A discussion of licences should be in a separate thread.

Quake 3

ftp://ftp.idsoftware.com/idstuff/source/quake3-1.32b-source.zip (GPL)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quake_III_engine - more info here then on the idsite - so have a read and see if its what your after.

quote:
Engine features

The Quake 3 engine loads 3D models in the MD3 format. The format used vertex movements (sometimes called per-vertex animation) as opposed to skeletal animation in order to store animation. The animation features in the MD3 format were superior to those in Quake 2's MD2 format because the animator was able to have numbers of keyframes per second be lower and higher than 10 keyframes per second. This allows for more complex animations that are less "shaky" than the models found in Quake 2.

Another important feature about the MD3 format is that models are broken up into 3 different parts which are anchored to each other. Typically, this is used to separate the head, torso and legs so that each part can move independently for sake of procedural animation. Each part of the model has its own texture, though you cannot use multiple.

The character models are lit and shaded using gouraud shading while the levels (stored in the BSP format) are lit either with lightmaps or gouraud shading depending on the user's preference. The engine is able to take colored lights from the lightmap and apply them to the models, resulting in a lighting quality that was, for its time, very advanced.

The engine is capable of two different kinds of shadows. One is able to cast a detailed shadow based on a specified light source and the other just puts a circle with faded edges at the characters' feet.

Other features included a high-level shader language and a method for rendering fog.

Ritual Entertainment added support for the MD4 model format for use in the game, Heavy Metal: F.A.K.K.?. The MD4 format featured full skeletal animation support. In the GPLed version of the Source-code, most of the code dealing with the MD4 format was removed, though it was added back in by someone who used the pseudonym Gongo. More information about the MD4 format can be found at his site.

I must add too, for any1 interested I have personally tried irrlicht and OGRE3D, irrlicht is very well structured and suitied for begginers into programing and gamedev, its quite powerfull too and open source, great learning place to start off from. Ogre I have been using for about 4-5 months now and this as probably everyone already knows is extremely powerfull, fast and very OOP structured graphics engine, well suited for the intermediate to advanced programmer.

I quite like OGRE, but like all 3D "graphics engine" it is designed around a traditional First/Third Person Shooter pipeline.

OGRE's 3D tool pipeline (exporters) is good. A large portion of building a game is art tool related.

Panda3D is pretty good too. A little heavy on the Python (less flashy) and more suited to the ToonTown like networked games than FPSes.

Hi guys, it seems that most of you are developing on PC?
______________________________________

If you are developing on mac, and at this stage are more keen on single player games rather than multiplayer, you should check out unity3d.com.
______________________________________________

If you use maya as well, your pipeline is seamless. It outputs both pc and mac games, though console dev is slow/possible/a maybe due to licensing I believe.
_________________________________________________
I brought a Unity indie license(yeehaa) and recently a game I made for a comp earned me an additional 8month license. I intend to sell my 8month license. So if you are interested in an 8month unity indie license, have a mac, like the look of unity, Im selling my license.(I'll never sell my lifetime license)________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________I posted some work here-some of you might have seen my other post______________________
____________________________________________________________________________________http://rapidshare.com/files/10212723/TheOasis2006.zip.html
For a MacOSX Universal Binary Build

http://rapidshare.com/files/8988908/TheOasis2006WindowsXP.zip
For Same as Windows XP Build

Or

http://rapidshare.com/files/11371804/Online_Gallery_.html

To see the work in Art gallery style. please note, if you want to view the gallery, you will need the UnityWebplayer plugin. The gallery works on mac and PC.____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________In my game the car is badly moddeled and the physics doesnt work too well, the intro is unskippable, and it requires some patience. This is my first 3d game, and its a solo effort(some models are supplied with unity)__________________________________________________________________________Hope you consider thye unity engine as it makes life easy, the support forum is legendary too
AC