Game Engine

what is the unsigned game comp ? [:)]

It's a competition that the AGDC hosted last year (and guess it will host again this year), for games that have no publishing contract and have been developed by 'new' studios (I think they can't be together for more than 2 years, according to last years rules?)

I just wanted to check out what competition our game might have.

cheers

Matt

There'll be at least the two Diploma2 games from the AIE...though we ain't getting any special lovin this year :) (Have to organise computers etc. ourselves).
The games are Deliverance - a racing style game and...ummm can't remember what the other groups is called, but it's a side-scrolling beat 'em up type game, in the vain of golden axe, double dragon style.
CYer, Blitz

Cool,

We're entering 'Antipode : The Insect Isles" a 3D real-time strategy / RPG. Look forward to seeing you there! Looks like it might be Melbourne vs Canberra so far! :)

Matt

I think there may be some entries from QANTM too, but dunno.
I remember hearing about antipode earlier. Was it originally planned to enter into the unsigned comp last year? Or was it at some stage this year that i heard about it? :)
CYer, Blitz

We attended the AGDC last year simply to assess the competition, we didn't have anything to enter. We've been developing Antipode all year though, you probably heard about it on the news page, when I was looking for artists and AI developers to join the team.

Matt

I was planning on having something for the AGDC, but with uni and other things I don't think it'll be anywhere close to finished by the deadline.

Is there any documentation about this competition on the AGDC's website? I can't seem to find any and am very interested. What's the prize? Are you allowed to use external engine technology (i.e. something that you've licensed and are legally allowed to use)?

Switchblade

There isn't really anything on the website about it yet, but last year they only got it up like a few weeks before the event.
Your best bet is to email ponc@agdc.com.au and express your interest.
I don't think there is any prize...? (Was there one last year?) Other than the prestige and publicity for winning. (The winner was announced in agdc coverage article in atomicPC or PC powerplay last year...)
I don't see any reason why you would not be able to use licensed engine tech (after all, a lot of the unsigned games this year will be using the auran JET engine), as long as you fit the "unsigned" bill (you don't currently have a publishing contract for the game).
Also of note (and i don't think this is on the website yet), there aer two unsigned categories this year. One for indie, and one for established developers. We could get some REALLY nice prototypes being shown by establised developers if we're lucky :P
CYer, Blitz

the prize last year was a full licensed copy of 3ds Max 5 :)

Matt

The prize this year is a copy of 3DS Max 6 with CS included, according to Pon. I emailed him and he said they will put up more information on their website in the near future, probably before the end of the week.

Lachie

Pon is female, I believe.

quote:Originally posted by Souri

Pon is female, I believe.

She very much is :)

I talked with Pon last week and was told that their web desinger was ill. I am guessing that it has something to do with why the info was not up any sooner.

If someone notices that the site has been updated with the info for Unsigned Games can you put up a link here?

Hi All,

Noticed the information and form for the AGDC awards for Unsigned Games are up at the AGDC site:

http://www.agdc.com.au/awards/awards_unsigned_form.php

as follows:

Award Categories:
? Award for Best Unsigned Game (Professional)
? Award for Best Unsigned Game (Indie)

----------------------------------------------------------
Rules & Regulations

All game demos must be playable and as bug free as possible.
All games short listed for eligibility in the categories of Award for Best Unsigned Game (Professional) or Award for Best Unsigned Game (Indie) will be on display during the AGDC.

All nominees must be willing to supply and setup their own computer hardware and software for demonstration in the Expo area from Thursday, 20 to Sunday 23 November 2003.

A maximum of three (3) computers are allowed per team and a maximum of two trestle tables (2) will be provided by AGDC.

All delegates who attend the Australian Game Developers Conference will have the chance to test the games and submit their vote on a numbered ballot paper provided in the delegate satchel.

Setup times are from 1400-1800 hours Wednesday 19 or from 0800-0900 hours on Thursday, 20 November 2003. Pack down time is from 1400-1800 hours, Sunday, 23 November 2003.

AGDC recommends that equipment be supervised at all times. AGDC will not be liable for the loss, theft or damage of any equipment.

Unsigned game demonstrators will receive an Expo Pass which offers entry to the Expo Hall on Thursday 20-Sunday 23 November 2003; a name badge and access to the AGD Award Presentation in the Latrobe Theatre, from 1235-1305 hours, Sunday, 23 November 2003.

Teams for the Award for Best Unsigned Game (Indie) will have the chance to "pitch" their game and show off a movie of gameplay for a maximum of 10 minutes to delegates, potential publishers and developers at 1335-1435 hours Saturday, 22 November 2003.
----------------------------------------------------------

Cheers,

Ross.

Oh! My bad :) Sorry Pon. hehe

One of the regulations is that you have to have a computer there displaying the game. My team is scattered all over Australia, with a few members in Melbourne, so I don't think that we will enter simply cause we're going to have about 2 or 3 people there, and I don't think we can stand there all day to display the game.

I do, however, have contacts in Monash's School of Multimedia... they are having a stand there to promote their new game development course. I wonder if it's OK (with the AGDC) for me to display my stuff there, instead of on a separate trestle table? Just to provide supervision, mind.

Lachie

I think thats a question you need to be asking Pon, rather than in here :)
CYer, Blitz

Take it easy on the cross-posting ok?
CYer, Blitz

Switchblade, i am interested!. While i have been working on my demo and recentley looking for colaborators, i still need work, paid work. I have level design experience, although i have been focuesed on programming since early last year.

I'd like to know more about this opportunity, and if you are interested in my work let me know.

Tim

I'd be interested...however i don't have the time to actually be a part of your team :P
I am interested in it otherwise though. Whats the company developing the engine? Website etc.?
I think it sounds like a great deal, although US$100,000 isn't that much. You'll just be able to keep a team of 4 housed and fed for a year on that maybe...but it's still better than $0 and will mean that the majority of the team will be able to focus all their time on the project (and not have to be working 20 hrs a week part time or anything).
"If i was in your position" hmmm, what is your position exactly as far as work/time goes :) If you have the time to do it then hell yes i'd go for it :)
Btw, where are you located? If you plan to set up in an office if you get the contract, you'd probably be better looking for people who were already located nearby. Also, co-ordinating a large project that will require more than 10hrs of work a week from people can be difficult over the net. People are much more motivated when other members of the team are in close proximity in my experience.
Anyway, good luck!
CYer, Blitz

Fuzzmeister: i'm checking it out now, we can chat online if you like :) Can you handle scripting, Ai or gameplay coding? Unfortunately, as I say in the post, it's not paid until Christmas- and that's not a definite, that's just if the company likes the game. But your stuff looks solid.

Blitz: I am not sure if I can release that info on the company or engine, so I won't just yet. Their website is in development now. It's a pity that you don't have time, cause I'm located in Melbourne; if we get funding, then I'll be setting up the studio here. What I plan to do is rent a large house in the suburbs, one with broadband internet, and set up office there. It's much cheaper than office space and is actually quite common where I live (eastern suburbs). With that money, I'm thinking more like a team of 7 or 8 fed and housed for about 4 or 5 months. The game will be smaller in scale than most games. I want to set it up so that we work fulltime for several months, flying people down from around Australia (given how cheap airfares are these days), and if there are any team members overseas, contract out development to them. Thanks for the tips on net work, I agree with you totally.

Thanks,

Switchblade

Hmm, my profile needs updating, i'm actually in canberra at least until the end of the year :)
The house idea is good. You can get really cheap rent on a big house if you're far enough away from the city!
Anyway, once again good luck!
CYer, Blitz

I've done no AI yet (we have covered it during my diploma course, but that's all), scripting, i can't say i've done any, and gameplay programming is pretty much where i am at at the moment... but haven't really written much (i think i'd be alright a it though!)

you have my hotmail address s ye by all means contact me via e-mail or MSN messenegr so we can talk more. I am interested in the idea, being in brisbane may be a problem we'll have to talk.

Tim

So your starting at about christmas'ish then?

I'm in the middle of updating my portfolio but I can send you out a copy sometime.

Wow Switchblade, sounds like a fantastic opportunity. I'm based in Melbourne, but if I wasn't still at uni I'd ask to help... Don't suppose you need anyone to make you guys coffee (as all geeks know, you need caffeine to work), or photocopy anything? I make a mean latte. ;)

Good luck with it all anyway!

I'm interested in one of the programming positions.

msn: gervase@winshop.com.au

add me and we'll talk more.

FlyingMonk: Please do so :) We're starting as soon as the engine is ready, which is probably in a few weeks. Obviously, design and team building has begun already. We have got until Christmas or so to make a good demo using the next-gen engine tech I mentioned earlier. If we succeed in making a good demo, we can get US$100,000 in funding and a publishing deal. So it's a great opportunity, I reckon.

Satyrblood: That's ok that you're at Uni- what skills do you have?

Striker: Done :)

Switchblade

hi switchblade [:)] this deal of yours is pretty interesting...... ill contact u via MSN im located in melbourne as well.

Moved thread!

Sitchblade,
I'm in Melbourne and am currently living in the outter Eastern Suburbs too. I work fulltime so could not be a major contributer, but am potentially available for part time work as a support programmer (I spend most of my weekends working on my own games projects anyway so this would not be a problem). I know this isn't a role you have mentioned above, but having an extra part-time guy may make your life easier close to crunch time! If you are interested I'll send you a more detailed description of my background and skill set.
Cheers,
Damon

Apart from the obligatory skills at from my uni degree (we cover programming/tech stuff, marketing, EC, project management etc), I have just started some modelling etc. to give me some creative relief. I am willing to learn pretty much anything though, to give me experience. here's my MSN if you want to get in contact with me.....

MSN: devourerofsouls@hotmail.com

Oh, forgot to add that I have worked on a few (self-indulgent) mods with my mates. Mainly for fun, but they turned out playable.

thanks Souri for moving thread and putting us on the front page :)

Ok guys, here's an update on how we're going... We've got a semblance of a team; one programmer (Strik3r), one programmer/mapper (Electro), one lead artist (Serpent Warrior) an audio technician (Mister) and myself, designer, manager and biz guy. I'm talking to a few others at the moment but those are pretty definite. We still need more people though, so artists especially if you can help, let me know :)

I've written up a basic design document for the demo and I'm working on one for the full game. It's going to be fairly small, because of the limited funding, but hopefully we can cram a lot of gameplay into it. I'm interested in trying out a few of my new design ideas too, in this game.

[url]http://www30.brinkster.com/entrada1/images/index.html[/url]

Here are a few renders of our first character, the raptor.

Damo: please send your descriptions, that would be good if you can help out on a casual basis for non-core things.

Satyrblood: talk to you on MSN

Take care all,

Switchblade

Very nice, Switchblade. So how is the project going so far?

Hi guys :) sorry for the late reply. Things are going quite well, I'm surprised and delighted at how smoothly everything's gone. We've got a great team, who are working nicely on the project. The engine company and my friend inside it has been extremely helpful and there have been no problems there - they've ensured a smooth adoption of their technology and they've kept us running when things went wrong.

A word of advice to budding team managers and game designers - when you are asking people to work for you for free, make SURE that there will be some cool stuff for each person to do. If everyone's having fun it makes it so much easier to keep team members. Share out the drudgery and share out the cool stuff and you'll find it all gets done so much quicker.

I'm so happy with the way things are going that I greatly look forward to coming home each night so I can get stuck into working on it :) I'll post some cool screenshots when we have them - right now we're just getting levels running in the engine, modelling plants and desks, and such. Soon, tho :) Soon.

Switchblade

hey if your still looking for artist im interested , and i think my brother would be hes got his own engine...

gibbz1@yahoo.com <- email or yahoo!
www.bronson.2ya.com <- portfolio inc. old tech demo with my brotehrs engine

not applying or anything(still in high school)
just saying, this is nice, don't see stuff like this much... Australia needs more activity in the gaming area...

"the engine company didn't keep up with its end of the bargain - we made a good try, but unfortunately we decided to let it slide so that we could keep our sanity. we're still making the game as a hobby, but for fun this time."

This comes directly from the lips(to be more precise, his keyboard) of Switchblade himself. He forgot his Sumea login details and so can post no more... tis a sad day for us all.

There's a link up the top there which you can click if you have forgotten your password..

I'll pass that on to him, thanks Souri.;)

Hey, alright, I'm here now.

Yeah, so things went kinda belly up there. The moral of the story - work on established tech as much as you can and don't take things too seriously.

Also, I've kinda re-evaluated my goals, and decided I don't want to get into the industry any more... lack of stability, lack of creativity, and so on. Haha, i decided that after attending AGDC, finding out what it was really like.

So yeah.

Lachie

I think I may have outdumbed myself here, cause I never read any previous posts, I just got straight in and though, lets do that, but it seems people have already attempted to start this. Oh well. PHEAR.

Well i'm gonna reply to my own post for a third time... after reading what most people are saying around here, I think they're underestimating the power of Australian developers... or themselves, one of the two. We can do this! Like Now!

um... 5 minutes past between your first and third post, you might want to give people more time to reply.
Hope you find some interest, the Aussie mod scene isn't very prolific.

Hmmm... I'm interested except there a few issues for me.
I'm 19 and don't have much experience, if your looking for somebody to jump right in then i guess i'm out but i hope thats not a problem because i can learn fast, i can model with 3D Studio Max and Maya. Im also good with Photoshop and i have textured before but not a great deal. My drawing skills are resonable. I can work 24/7.
how long were you expecting to take on this Mod?

Hi guys,

I'm interested in this, for sure... I'm a designer/biz guy/texture artist, and I'm looking to put together a project team for a game demo to pitch to venture capitalists or publishers. I've got contacts at an engine company that is developing a next-gen engine, one month away from release. It has Doom3-style lighting and graphics, and it's extremely easy to get from 3D Studio Max to the game- I'm a keyboard jockey and even I can make levels and artwork for the game. So I kinda get a free license, cause I've been helping them out a bit. I've got one artist already.

What do you think?

Switchblade

PS: Mick, I checked out some of your music, it's pretty nice :)

I have a few issues to sort out before i can commit to any project 100%, but i'm extremely confident that i can get those issues out of the way. At this point i'm extremely enthusiastic about being involved with any game project.

I'd like to be involved but i guess its up to you guys.

Well interesting. Lets go then! heh
oh, I mean, so what will we do?

And yes, the short amount of time between my original posts was because I posted, then read elsewhere, then posted again, kind of updating my first one because I didn't realise there were other topics related to what I had said already, but of course there was.

I'll try and come up with some game ideas through the week then i'll post them, how many ppl did you want involved? How many Coders and Artists? How big did you want the project to be?

As small as it is or as large as it is, if it takes off great, if its a little project, great, the worst that can happen is that we don't do anything, if we get something done then it can't be worse than anything else coming out in the world. So I don't really mind, I don't intend to be the Project Lead or anything, I would leave the people (us) up to a combined decision as to what should occur in relation to anything? My idea would be to purchase a personal license for AMPII, but I am not 100% familiar with the engine and I do not code 100%, so if coders have any better ideas, go right ahead. I'm willing to pay the US $200 for the AMPII License if interest is ensured.

Thats fine but i'll probably have to get a night fill job at woolies so i can pay for some new things like a new 3D card and a Wacom, and if the project gets started i'd probably want to chip in for the engine license.

BTW, If anyone wants to contact me with MSN or anything to bypass this baton relay olympic forum thingo, MSN = mcuneo@internode.on.net, ICQ = 10554575

I guess i better go sign up for MSN again, but not today, i hope more People show interest in this project.

Hey guys,

sorry for the lack of replies; just sorting some stuff out that could change things... I'll post soon, about what I am working on, ok?

Switchblade

http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=831

This is what I was talking about. What do you think?

Switchblade

cool, sounds like an awesome opportunity.

BTW MSN= bensmotocross@hotmail.com

Mister, I sent you a PM email.

And here is some beta programmes to muck with.

http://nlpr-web.ia.ac.cn/english/rv/demons.htm

I mean Program when I write Programme. Anyway here is another.
These guys have got a realy tight sytem going. Download the avi and think about GOD modes or even dolls houses.
http://www.ar-solutions.de/solutions_sdk_e.htm

For those having trouble downloading the Toolkit from before
http://www.hitl.washington.edu/projects/shared_space/download/
Here also is a start for games applications
http://www.hitl.washington.edu/people/poup/research/ar.htm#artoolkit

Here are some links more for AR with wearable computers:
http://www.csl.sony.co.jp/person/rekimoto/matrix/Matrix.html
http://jaugment.sourceforge.net/ (you may need to search around a bit)

and more generally:
http://www.cc.gatech.edu/projects/ael/

It seems we all missed the dead line to poat our demos for the ISMAR 03
The Second IEEE and ACM International Symposium
on Mixed and Augmented Reality
But maybe next year.

http://www.ismar03.org/
http://www.c-lab.de/art03/
http://www-human.ist.osaka-u.ac.jp/VRST2003/

These are recent Augmented Reality Patents in the U.S.

Recent U.S. patents related to Augmented Reality:

6,356,255: Methods and systems for providing programmable computerized interactors
6,353,436: Graphical user interface
6,349,001: Eyeglass interface system
6,330,356: Dynamic visual registration of a 3-D object with a graphical model
6,326,918: Method and apparatus for geographic-based communications service
6,317,127: Multi-user real-time augmented reality system and method
6,314,055: Range measuring system
6,307,556: Augmented reality vision systems which derive image information from other vision system
6,297,825: Temporal smoothing of scene analysis data for image sequence generation
6,297,804: Pointing apparatus
6,278,461: Augmented reality vision systems which derive image information from other vision systems
6,273,571: Display architectures using an electronically controlled optical retarder stack
6,266,053: Time inheritance scene graph for representation of media content
6,262,711: Computerized interactor systems and method for providing same
6,259,405: Geographic based communications service
6,249,285: Computer assisted mark-up and parameterization for scene analysis
6,241,670: Radiotherapy system
6,222,937: Method and system for tracking vantage points from which pictures of an object have been taken
6,195,093: Systems and method for controlling a presentation using physical objects
6,184,876: Method and apparatus for audibly communicating comparison information to a user
6,176,837: Motion tracking system
6,175,954: Computer programming using tangible user interface where physical icons (phicons) indicate: beginning and end of statements and program constructs; statements generated with re-programmable phicons and stored
6,175,343: Method and apparatus for operating the overlay of computer-generated effects onto a live image
6,167,353: Computer method and apparatus for interacting with a physical system
6,160,907: Iterative three-dimensional process for creating finished media content
6,151,564: Coded object system and code recognition methods
6,151,009: Method and apparatus for merging real and synthetic images
6,124,864: Adaptive modeling and segmentation of visual image streams
6,124,825: GPS based augmented reality collision avoidance system
6,106,301: Interventional radiology interface apparatus and method
6,094,625: Augmented vision for survey work and machine control
6,094,182: Apparatus and method for providing images for viewing at various distances
6,091,546: Eyeglass interface system
6,091,378: Video processing methods and apparatus for gaze point tracking
6,084,590: Media production with correlation of image stream and abstract objects in a three-dimensional virtual stage
6,084,557: System for displaying combined imagery
6,081,273: Method and system for building three-dimensional object models
6,064,749: Hybrid tracking for augmented reality using both camera motion detection and landmark tracking
6,064,398: Electro-optic vision systems
6,064,335: GPS based augmented reality collision avoidance system
6,061,064: System and method for providing and using a computer user interface with a view space having discrete portions
6,049,367: Polarization manipulating device modulator with retarder stack which preconditions light for modulation and isotropic states
6,047,249: Video camera based computer input system with interchangeable physical interface
6,047,088: 2D mesh geometry and motion vector compression
6,045,229: Method and apparatus for displaying real space and virtual space images
6,037,914: Method and apparatus for augmented reality using a see-through head-mounted display
6,037,882: Method and apparatus for inputting data to an electronic system
6,037,708: Field emission display cell structure
6,031,545: Vision system for viewing a sporting event
identifiers that including committing, aborting updating and continuous:
6,148,082: Scrambling and descrambling control word control in a remultiplexer for video bearing transport streams
:

I'm going to put this discussion thread in the mod/game collaboration/game tech forum, and make it a sticky post.. a good resource for Augmented Reality stuff...

Thats cool, I should have thought to put it here too. Sorry

I found a unique company that seem to be developing an even more outthere application for AR. http://marisil.org/

Also, any FMV Artists out there are also welcome to drop me a line - could be a cool chance to show off some of your high-poly pre-rendered artwork in an intro movie :)

Where are you located? I'd be interested in a 3D position. I'm in brissie.

oops.. double post

im on the gold coast, but the majority of this project would be done online anyway.. bar one or 2 meetings just to get to know each other perhaps. drop me an email :)

For a small project to be done under 10 weeks, you could probably do without the FMV intro movie, and get the artistic resources to concentrate on the game art.. [;)]

Yea, i just figured i'd add it in case there were some 3d artists around who didnt wanna do game art, just a movie. It's definately not a necesity.

quick update:

All positions have been filled bar 3d Artist (1 position left) and i'm still after a good 2D artist (i have one, but he's a novice, and would prefer to just do small stuff).

plz email me if your interested in either of these positions.

Hi I'm interested in any of these positions, but I would prefer the 3D Artist one.
Check out my folio:

http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~e_kazzi/PAGES/index.html

My email wasn't workin so I just posted it here> Sorry.

I got it to work again.

Had to move the thread to this section, sorry..

If your after some music/sound you should try my brother. His site is http://artists.iuma.com/IUMA/Bands/Molloch/ he can be contacted via that page I think.

Hi. Im studying for Masters of Music at QUT. Skills of composition, sound design, recently studying algorthimic composition in jmusic. Am interested to herre more, am seeking team to work with for my major project in this field.
Thanks, Craig Gibbons
EMAIL: cr.gibbons@student.qut.edu.au
MOBILE; 0405 761 229

You can sign me up as a beta tester :P

How is your project going, by the way, Strik3r?

Me and some friends have been kicking around an absolutely brilliant game idea which we were hoping to bring to life. Unfortunately none of us have ever done anything to do with games whatsoever yet.

We intend on using the Source engine (Half-Life 2, like duhh :P) because it will enable sooooo much creative freedom in expressing our vision. So, shit yeah! I'm very interested in this idea. I'm sure the guys would be interested in some outside help too.

What I'm capable of? Not a lot at this point in time. But I am churning through tutorials at a fairly high rate of knots. I already have concepts for all of the weapons and would be able to model them. I also have a very good idea of how the interface would look/work and am very capable of making them. I can also do web/graphic design and am quite a good team leader.

If anyone else is interested then I'd certainly be up for meeting up sometime and having a huge brainstorming session.

Weapons aren't that hard to model, even a programmer like myself can do it, making good weapons that have good animations is another task though,

Exactly why I said I'm not capable of a lot at this point ;)

I hate to preach this everywhere (and in this post), but I don't see anything 'absolutely brilliant' in yet another game with guns.

But that's just me, don't let it get to ya.

As far as game design goes I'm generally up to give feedback and perhaps point in the right direction wherever possible.

As a programmer I'm too busy and I'm not a brisbanite so I can't really offer anything there :)

Trankillity
---------------
If you are interested, there is a mod already that i know of that will use the Source engine, it's called roleplay half-life (or world war 3 annialation or something now), i was involved in it's creation (mapping)when it was a hl engine game idea... but it got kinda abandoned then merged with another mod (with a new team mostly... where i left).
Unfortunatley now that they have a site placeholder, there isn't all that much info on the original game concept. but check it out anyhoos :)

but anyway if you are planning on doing something with the Source engine you might want to keep an eye on this mod... or even get involved.

www.roleplayhl.com

Yo, I'm at QUT aswell, also studying IT. Have a year and a half to go, so we have probably been doing some of the same subjects. I'd be interested in a HL2 mod, just as long as it is something different, and is not a CS clone. Also, I'd only be working on it if it was singleplayer, otherwise it would have to be an absolutely brilliant multiplayer concept.

You might want to check out Kezza on these forums too, hes also in IT at QUT.

Maitrek: This isn't "Just another mod with guns"... I'm just not at liberty to talk about it because it is literally such a brilliant idea that it will quite quickly be snatched up by some third party. *HOWEVER* I would be interested in meeting with people who are interested in such a project after which we can talk about the idea.

I am interested in finding out what you guys are doing i am in Brisbane and would like to get involved with the local scene (programmer)

It would have to be an absolutely ground breaking concept, like the FPS, or the MMORPG to really get worried about someone stealing your idea.
Implementation makes a game, not the idea. Worry about people stealing your content rather than your idea's.
CYer, Blitz

I live in Brisbane...this project thing sounds interesting.
What I do is....polish up concepts in the art department of things.

Whatever it is, I'd be interested in it. I can model, animate, and I should be able to code but don't push your luck! :P

Exactly what Blitz said.

What's the size of the project are you looking at? 5 ppl? 10 ppl? 100 ppl?

I sure as willing to work on something coz I'm bored as hell itching to work on something. I've got enough pieces of paper to poke a stick at but my main strengths are graphic/interface design, in fact, design in general. I have little experience in programming, I'm more arty than code monkey. I'm in, depending on what's to eat at the table.

Why not let the people get on with the project instead of raining on their parade :)

I think its great that they are at least trying to get a group together to do something!

Hi All!
Nice to see other QUT IT students around here! I'm in my final year of IT/Comm Design and would like to get into games programming but I don't think I would know what to do, so I just wanted to say hi.
Good luck with getting a group together.

Wow guys this thread is old, I can't believe it?s been dug up. Hmm, final year IT/Comm Design you say; I?ll see you next Monday in 649.

haha I didn't realise it was so old. I'll just go back into my corner now...
Vengeance, do I know you? I'm looking forward to 649, its one of the few subjects that might actually produce something useful for the future!

Nooo, I don't think you do.

My apologies, but this thread should be in the Mod / Game collaborations, and game technology section [:)]

Just thought id add in my 2 cents, hows the group going ? any advancements on the game ??

I'm just wondering if the group actually exists. I am eager to work with people from Brisbane but I haven't had a reply when I said I was interested.

Anybody know if it does exist? Coz I'm willing to join up and lend a hand. I've got degrees in Multimedia and Finished the Dip IT (majoring in soft dev for games) at Qantm last year. I can compose music (10yrs worth of exp), graphic/web/interface design, and currently working on a CS map. PM me if you want some details from me.

morphine whats your name man ? i probably met you last year at qantm...

The name's Joshua Poysden. I was in the Arena Battles dev team. I worked on the SFX, original music, weather, particles and the website. I think it's still up: [url]http://www.skumindustries.com[/url]

Check it out and tell me whatchya think of it. Hope you like [:)]

If you find yourself in need of a composer, Im a brissie-based one. Look me up if this ever gets off the ground :)

-s

By the way, Im also at QUT, studying Ba of Music!

-s

DEAD!

I think most people who are looking to get help on mods have been posting in the general threads instead of here.

How about showing a sticky thread of current mods that are in the works or completed for various games?

Might peak peoples interest.

I will be looking for fellow game developers soon... as soon as i get abit of a foundation of my engine that can be worked with... i'm in no real hurry to request help until i can get enough done so that animators for instance can work to a given format etc... not there yet.

in time i'll be back to ask for interested parties in brisbane (preferably) to join the crew. But time is needed

The interest shown will be interesting as it seems most people want to work with already founded engines that support the latest lighting and such... i don't have this to offer, instead plan to work on game play, may well look battlefeld-esque with more complicated gameplay concepts (trading, upgrading, multiplayer game saving etc). The goal to be a playable game that invites interest and hopefully employment!. The game will be mainly for demo-portfolio purposes for all involved.

so anyway this section won't die as far as i'm concerned.

Hey, would you be interested in doing a small looped music thing? I'm thinking of doing a flash thing for Sumea...

sound effects for my showreel? :)
some engine noises (audi tt in particular :), then the sounds cars make when they speed past the camera :), environment/ambient machinery type sounds..
no worries if you cant. just putting it out there if your interested :)

lachlan inglis
Showreel WIP: http://effectism.com/sample/

quote:Hey, would you be interested in doing a small looped music thing? I'm thinking of doing a flash thing for Sumea...

Hi Souri, Yep, love to. Send me an email so we can discuss what you have in mind.

quote:sound effects for my showreel? :)
some engine noises (audi tt in particular :), then the sounds cars make when they speed past the camera :), environment/ambient machinery type sounds..
no worries if you cant. just putting it out there if your interested :)

Hey Lachlan, I guess I'm not the only one who admires the TT's lines.
the sounds your after should'nt pose any significant problem. I really like your work, has a nice organic feel to it. I also happen to have just the tool for those ambient/machinery noises your after. Drop me a line.

Cheers
Tim

synsonic@iprimus.com.au

"time slows down during combat action"
How do you plan to do this in a multiplayer game? (Sorry to get technical on you :P)
CYer, blitz

that sok blitz.

the gameworld isn't collision based, actions are dermined by stats on attempting the action. eg. as such, fireing an arrow at someone- when you select that action the stat calculation is done to see if you hit, and two spheres of time slowing are created, one around the attacker and one around the target. the closer to the cernter you get in these spheres your animation, movement and actions are slowed down to combat speed.

someone standing nearby is effected, but could possibly move away, or run towards the attacker and go into the same slowdown mode... are my explanation making any sence

//player can set what their combat speed is, but the lowest of combatance is chosen

// the aim is to avoid twitch dependance (buterfly net likes to do most stuff server side) and to merge with the game world seamlessly. the sort of factor i was thinking about was a 0.1 slowdown, with the option to take it back to 1 (no slowdown) might need to reduce some of the action recovery times to accomidat this, or get a better combat solution, so thanks for pointing it out as an issue

DSC

Localized Time Deformation (TM) :P is interesting to be sure. I think it's one of those things that might be difficult to tell how it would go until you've actually got it in the game and can playtest it.
The basic idea seems to be that it is turn based combat, and the time-slowdown just gives you the opportunity to vary your attacks rather than making an attack automatically with whatever weapon is in your hand etc.?
I think this system could actually discourage PvP, if you don't wanna be attacked just put your combat mode on the slowest possible and people will get frustrated before they can kill you haha :)
CYer, Blitz

I think I remember having this discussion with people from Criterion, Krome, Bluetongue, Bull Ant and Microforte... my friend aske why we could not have something akin to bullet time... and the very basic of it all was... synchronisation and Timing issues. Either you have to synchronise everybodies else machines, in which case this interferes with game play (ie: one persone enters bullet time, everybody does). Speed up time play.. err does not work... the two players outside become out of sync with the rest of the server.

Any how not sure how this would apply but it comes down to this, what ever affects the local enviroment has to affect all other players to be in sync.

I played poker with a Tarot deck the other night. I got a full house and four people died.

--Steven Wright.

Well, I'm assuming you'd already have a theme in regards to where/when are set, etc, so getting a few decent ideas that can be floated around could probably be helped along by a bit more info on what you're planning on including in the design already - or at least its style and setting. =)

A couple of the biggies you always hear playing while playing shooters, though, are things like "vehicles you can use" and "character classes". Perhaps you could create a shooter where you play as different characters on different levels, each with their own abilities, weapons, and skills that need to be used to complete objectives? Variety of gameplay is what a lot of shooters currently lack (with "lots of different guns" often being used as a substitute for "variety of gameplay"). That could be worth looking into... it'd interest me, at least. =)

- Grif

well we do have a theme, setting etc.
with the characters, we will have them change through out the story line (like they learn skills dependiing on what you actually do in the game). the story line also will develope with the character (so depending on what you choose to do it alters the story line.)

although we have planned out most of the game already and have plenty of ideas, i still would like to know what people would like to see in it... a few people have said they would like to see co-op in a game (most games today dont have co-op but have things like deathmatch and ctf etc)

Team based games, such as team deathmatch or CTF are co-op. I think you mean not many games have co-op in their standard single-player storyline type game.
CYer, Blitz

co-op as in play through the story line with another person, in singleplayer. like in duke nukem and most of those old games.

Can't say it enough; STORYLINE is the most important thing :) Doesn't matter if your graphics are insanely awesome the thing that's going to get people playing is the storyline and how well it's written etc.. well that's my opinion anyway, I used to go get any aesthetically pleasing game that i thought *might* be cool cos of the purdy pictures but I usually ended up getting a game with a weak storyline that i just couldn't get into so I would end up being bored etc. [B)]

quote:Originally posted by insan1ty

Just a quick note: this topic was created for ideas; ie. what you would like to see in our game.

We have started to create our first game...
we have a couple names for it at the moment and havnt really decided which one to use.
its a futuristic first person shooter.

more info will be provided asap

We are going to start the coding most likly in march... so up till then we would like to see lots of ideas to
improve the game.

in a couple days i will delete this topic if there is no replies.

//Without order nothing can exist - without chaos nothing can evolve. \(anon)

As I said in the "What Female Gamers Want" topic...

Interaction. Either multiplayer interaction or more interation between the player and bots and player and environment.

"Yes I Code"
As found on AGDC name tag 2002

Good point, more options in dialogue and actions, characters should react to eachother in certain unique ways. for example as you play as different races and gender other non player characters should react in unique ways to each seperate character.

quote:Originally posted by Jacana

As I said in the "What Female Gamers Want" topic...

Interaction. Either multiplayer interaction or more interation between the player and bots and player and environment.

"Yes I Code"
As found on AGDC name tag 2002

//Without order nothing can exist - without chaos nothing can evolve. \(anon)

least that's what's happening in my rpg, It's going to be hell programming but I'm up for it, I want all interactions to be unique and all charcaters have their own seperate personality traits from the way they walk to their dialogue interaction and appearance etc. I'm putting in everything I think rpgs have lacked as of late. lol me freak! :D

//Without order nothing can exist - without chaos nothing can evolve. \(anon)

Storyline in the traditional sense is not the most important thing in a game by a long shot. Arguably some of the most popular and most sucessful games of all time have had no pre-written storyline, and have become successful purely on their gameplay (or sometimes other factors). So, by this we discover that GAMEPLAY is THE most important factor in the game!
Just to back up my argument with some product names...
Counter strike
Everquest
The Sims
Sim city (and 2000)
Transport tycoon (at least i think this was successful :P)
UT and UT2k3
Q3A
Some of these games have some background story, but no storyline that is unveiled/unravelled as you play.

I don't care how good a storyline is, if a game plays like crap, i'm not going to play it. If it does happen to be the greatest story ever written i guess i'll have to miss out.
So, in conclusion, with great gameplay your game can be a huge success without any storyline.
CYer, Blitz
PS. If someone could name a few titles that have been successful solely on the basis of their storyline and have had crap gameplay, i'd be interested to know...i can't think of any myself.

There are a lot of cases where a storyline is extremely important to push along a game that would otherwise be rather boring, repetitive and tedious without it. A few games that come to mind are the Resident Evils, Metal Gear Solids, and a lot of RPG's like Final Fantasy.. Metal Gear Solid VR missions is an example where the story is stripped, and you have mission after mission after mission of just gameplay. Yes, it does get boring [:)].. Ever play 100 levels of Bubble Bobble? No story there, and pure gameplay, and trust me, it gets pretty boring level after level! .. A good story would enhance something like that I reckon.. keep the audience interested.. Not that I'm saying gameplay isn't as important eitheer [:)] Mutiplayer games and building/god games don't really lend themselves much to story possibilities.. well, the with the latter, you might be able to do something there.. [:)]

B&W was a god game and had a story! :P
I think in any case where a good story is needed to "push the game along" as you say, there is obviously some sort of flaw in the gameplay. If the gameplay was good you wouldn't need a story to push it along, the story would just make the game from great to fantastic.
In fact you touch on my above point quite well when you said
" There are a lot of cases where a storyline is extremely important to push along a game that would otherwise be rather boring, repetitive and tedious without it. "
If it had good gameplay it wouldn't be boring, repetitive or tedious :)
I think the guy who wrote the game architecture and design book (Rollings?) called this "Frustrated Author Syndrome" where peopel create a crappy game to push a good story...
CYer, Blitz

I'm going to agree with the ladies and say story and interactivity. Interactivity is important for immersion, it helps you feel a part of the world. Variety in environments, choice of play style eg stealthy or guns-a-blazing. I have to say that cliche's and bad stereo-types really put me off. Daikatana pissed me off with these (on top of it being an average game), characters that talk hip etc etc. I can honestly say that I dont know anyone like this, I have seen people like this and they look stupid. Dark humour, a black comedy of a game would be great, put some of this in your game. As has already been mentioned vehicles, gun turrets etc etc.

"when it comes to angry killing machines, nothing beats the Lord Jesus!"

How come like 43.5% of Sumea people in the "what you want to see in games" poll said they wanted more story then?

I think that saying story isn't required is a little bit of a "new generation of gamers" gimmick. Story can always make the experience more enjoyable, and more motivating, even if a game is fun, something "fun" can wear thin very quickly (depending on the type of gameplay, for sure). Story can really glue a game together and give it direction and even alter the gameplay, and can also give the player extra motivation, aside from having fun - the player can also be part of an evolving/intriguing journey. To me, multi-layered experiences are always good, but it must be matched.

If there was one thing I'd love to see in a game, it would have to be better storylines. Me and my brother did a back-of-a-napkin approach a few years ago when we were coming up with a story to support this 3D engine/shooter idea, and it went like this "Aliens have invaded this mining facility on earth, as you get through to a certain point in the game, the military arrives and starts to purge the area of all witnesses and lifeforms to sterilise it (including you) and eventually after escaping all this you travel down further into the mineshafts to find the complex tunnel system from whence these aliens came and you destroy the source of the problem."

Sound familiar? Believe it or not, this was something we came up with in ten minutes just to fill in the idea of a storyline, and we'd *never* heard of or played half-life at the time. This is *not* a strong storyline, and we were basically just patching up a weak/hopeless/boring gameplay mechanic. I agree, putting in a storyline just to motivate the player is pointless, but actually sitting down and thinking about a good storyline, and good gameplay dynamics, although takes more effort cause you have to think about two things, at least you come up with a more solid product at the end of it all.

Snootchie bootchies!
Any off-topic issues send to maitrek@austarmetro.com.au

A good story dose make a good game but not a great game. A good story line will make you come back the next day and maybe the week after to keep playing the game. But I find that after you know the story it isn?t that good the 2nd time around (beside a game which let you play the story a number of ways .eg. Duse Ex)

I have been told by game designer that the main thing you aim for in a game is to make the player fell something. Eg. Happiness, scared, hero ness etc. Which I find to be a good place to start.

But I personally thing the main thing to have is interactivity. Good interactivity means good game play. If you make a game that has an easy to learn interface and a huge amount of interactivity. The play will always have something to do and try.

The MOD that I have mainly design myself has this as the base to it. Then the story came later.

Also multiplayer, adds to a games interactivity having something that the player can interact with that will be different every time you play.

Argh - that's it - I've had it with this public forum garbage.

I didn't say story was the one ****ing element in a game that counts. I said that a story adds to the effect of a game, nor did I claim to know what the major component is. I state it's an underestimated component.

I especially did NOT ****ing say that gameplay wasn't important!!!

If I was to sit here and preach that story is everything, I'd be a ****ing author and I'd write books wouldn't I?

****!!!!

Expect my future paticipation in the forums to be limited, no one gives a crap for my antiquated old-school opinions anyway.

Snootchie bootchies!
Any off-topic issues send to maitrek@austarmetro.com.au

1. Non-linearity: Probably through of AI (think Deus Ex). The days of puzzles, scripted sequences and lock-and-key devices are over; modern game design needs to provide genuine problem-solving situations.

2. Artistry: In the graphical sense. Grass...plains...steel corridors...*yawn*. Do something unique with your visual style. Go crazy over aesthetics. Too many FPSs fall between the gothic look ala Quake and the sterile sci-fi environs of Unreal Tournament. This needs to change real fucking quick.

And then there's other things...balanced weapons, decent story, solid physics model. I would leave out multiplayer for the moment. Also, be modest about your goals.

Cheers!

if you are a programmer looking for a cool free 3D engine try www.twilight3d.com and get the prophecy SDK, its kickass.

Glenn "Gaffer" Fiedler | Senior Programmer | Irrational Games

I'd say build your own engine, but then you'd never really make a game, since creating the *perfect* engine would take up your entire time.

hehe...

What's this Dom? I thought you were all for getting a game done and not stuffing around with low-level stuff! (I wish I was like that for sure!)

torgue engine (tribes 2) from Garagegames:

http://www.garagegames.com/pg/product/view.php?id=1
going for $100us..you make the game, then when completed they will publish it..

i haven't read over everything- just found it off bigkid.com.au.

Building a decent engine, especially by yourself, takes a lot of time, and you have to go back and change things after a while.

The only other engine I've had experience with hacking around in was the genesis3d engine, before being bought by WildTangent, and then back to some other owners and now I think its destiny3D. From that one engine there are now several including Genesis3D, Jet3D, and Destiny3D.

www.jet3d.org
www.genesis3d.com
www.destiny3d.com

I think...

That AMP2 engine looks interesting. I guess the whole bump map texturing, light casting real-time shadows thing is the next big thing now, but with those screenshots (and I've noticed it with Doom3 as well), everything looks like plastic or rubber. It's probably not as noticable when everything is moving, but with still screenshots, that's what it looks like. I guess it's because every bump map surface is reflecting the same amount of light in return, and there's little or no colouring in there. Of course, real world objects don't reflect the same amount of light, and I wonder if it's possible to control how much is reflected from areas of bumpmaps..

i know what you mean with the rubber look-

i played that leaked version of doom and it did look like that.
the characters the most. good thing every room is very dark and you cant see much :)

Plus the leaked version of doom ran slow as... even on a very powerful computer.

I am sure carmack will get around to optimising it heavily sooner or later.

I agree with you on the plastic look souri. When I get a hold of the engine I want to find out what its like for outdoors or just more colorful scenes. I think it is possible to control the reflections.
Also it turns out a playable demo will also be put out sometime in the near future, I'm told that it looks so much better when you can see it in motion.

"when it comes to angry killing machines, nothing beats the Lord Jesus!"

From what i've read the Doom3 engine only runs at acceptable levels in reasonably small enclosed spaces...so outdoors probably won't be much good.
CYer, Blitz

i dont know about that.
but there was no outdoor areas at all in the playeable leaked (e3) version of the game.
i dont know if doom really has outdoor areas :)

According to Joel, the guy who owns 4D and is making the demo:

"It won't run on a TNT2, Currently it only Runs on GeForce 3 or 4 Ti. If things go well we will have it working on all GeForce cards by release. Framerate is nice and fast in the testmap I built, on a GeForce 3 PIII 850 running 640x480, probably in the 50's most the time. If I raise the res to 1152x864 I still stay above 30."

So thats pretty reasonable.

as for the doom3 leak, I thought it was only optimised for the ATI radeon 9700 at the time which is why it sucked on anything else

"when it comes to angry killing machines, nothing beats the Lord Jesus!"

"on a GeForce 3 PIII 850 running 640x480, probably in the 50's most the time. If I raise the res to 1152x864 I still stay above 30"
Correct me if i'm worng but this has nothing to do with the engine, and is only dependent on the fill-rate of the graphics card? :)
CYer, Blitz

Probably. I cant say I know a hell of a lot about video cards

"when it comes to angry killing machines, nothing beats the Lord Jesus!"

Oh, and I want to write about my take on Flashback [:)] I absolutely loved that game.
The easiest way you can describe it is as a Prince of Persia clone. Remember that game? It was a 2d platform kind of game where you could use swords, jump, hang off, and climb ledges. Some of the puzzles were very creative (and some infuriating). The same can be said for Flashback. Flashback however had AWESOME art (all the levels and the character animations were drawn beautifully), was set in the future, and you had a gun, and can do rolls. It also had vector animated cut-scenes, which were pretty cool for their time. It also had a very cool story too.
I said it earlier, but Tomb Raider was pretty much Prince of Persia/Flashback in 3D.. Another World was the first in the series, then Flashback. The third one was called Fade to Black, and that was in 3d. Unfortunately it didn't do too well, I think.

Have fun down in Melbourne, and good luck with it all @:-)

Chris Bowden
http://brain.gamekey.com/

Good luck with sponsor, Souri :)

Need me to "pimp" anything else for you *grin*

"Yes I Code"
As found on AGDC name tag 2002

Cheers, Souri... that sort of setup sounds like it'll come in handy. =)

As for heading down to Melbourne, hope the sponsorship discussion goes well, and hey, if you have some free time we oughta maybe hook up and play some pool. I'm a Melbourne lad m'self, so if you (or anyone else who's reading this and is going to be in the vicinity, of course) would be up for that be sure to let me know. =) Would be a good chance to have a bit of fun and a good face-to-face rambling discussion about anything and everything. =)

Going back in part to talking about Flashback (he says, going into "jaded gamer" mode), I actually have to admit that I'm liking that idea more and more the more I think about it. In terms of a "first project" it would certainly be probably the most easily doable out of anything that's been suggested thus far, and, moreover, it's so easily accessible in terms of gameplay, theme, and interface. This is me thinking about things from my own "I'm having less and less patience with obtuse gameplay concepts and interfacing these days" perspective, of course... I certainly don't have a problem with being ambitious (Origin are still my all-time favourite development company for their sheer ambition, after all), but it might make for a pretty decent (and relatively quick) "testing ground". Any thoughts? =)

- Grif

Hmm... how end of the month Souri? Hehe :) We might miss each other in transit. I am in Melbourne now but need to get up to Canberra for school. I don't think I'll be here any later then the 24th of Jan.

Hey Grif I am not so big on pool but I do love my coffee! Might be cool to try and meet up with anyone from Melbourne before I head off.

Besides - always good to know who you are working with even if you don't see them daily (ie mod).

"Yes I Code"
As found on AGDC name tag 2002

Sounds like a plan, Jacana. =) How about it, Souri? Would that sort of time frame fit in with your visit?

- Grif

I think I might miss Jacana.. I'm roughly going down there late January/early February, and that may be pushed a bit later too. So you're going to Canberra, Jacana? That for the AIE studies?? Have you found a place to stay yet? How long's your course going to be?

Length of course: 2 years unless I can get someone drunk enough to give me a job at the GDC this year
Going for AIE: Yup - fully funded spot
Place to stay: Not yet - I need to start looking

"Yes I Code"
As found on AGDC name tag 2002

quote:Originally posted by Grif


Going back in part to talking about Flashback (he says, going into "jaded gamer" mode), I actually have to admit that I'm liking that idea more and more the more I think about it. In terms of a "first project" it would certainly be probably the most easily doable out of anything that's been suggested thus far, and, moreover, it's so easily accessible in terms of gameplay, theme, and interface. This is me thinking about things from my own "I'm having less and less patience with obtuse gameplay concepts and interfacing these days" perspective, of course... I certainly don't have a problem with being ambitious (Origin are still my all-time favourite development company for their sheer ambition, after all), but it might make for a pretty decent (and relatively quick) "testing ground". Any thoughts? =)

A 2d game like Flash back would be very suitable for Gameboy Advance. Speaking of which, I've posted info up on Nocturnal Entertainment's Catapult demo comp.. Now there's a plan! [:)]
http://nocturnal.proboards4.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&…

what course you doing at the AIE?
I'm going there next year (my parents aren't happy about it either, reckon it's a waste of money and also pissed that they have to pay [:D] so they are making me pay everything back, which is fair enough)
I'm doing cert IV animation for games and film
i guess seeing as you say it's 2 years that you are doing the next one up from me?
Anyways i might see you there
what days are you there?

It is infact ants who are the true rulers of this world!!!

I thought Cert IV animation and films led to the diploma? Or do you have to do a year of the diploma in Max first?
Anyway, i'm surprised your parents think it's a waste. Just take them to see LotR and point out all the special effects computer animation to them and tell them what kind of $$ budget that movie had :)
CYer, Blitz

Mmm, even by doing that people can think it's a waste of time. My advice Meatex is to absolutely work your arse off the entire time you're there. Cut your social life down hugely and work work work.

Chris Bowden
http://brain.gamekey.com/

quote:Originally posted by Meatex_Salami

what course you doing at the AIE?
what days are you there?

I am in Year 1 Diploma of Computer Game Development (Software Development). Not sure what days I am there yet - still trying to find a place before I register.

Can't miss me tho... girl coders red hair american. *shrugs* :)

"Yes I Code"
As found on AGDC name tag 2002

Well... I am not sure what you guys are intending to do.... I can help you in one way or the other. At the moment my self I am programming for the PS2 ^_^.. I was PC based working on an Engine.

I can help in coding but that would be taking my time away from PS2 Programming (if the heat is not already) and possibly my own little project.

Any way, I can offer some help, programming/Code (if possible due to IP issues), contacts if you need it, just ask ^_^

I played poker with a Tarot deck the other night. I got a full house and four people died.

--Steven Wright.

quote:Originally posted by Souri

I'm planning to go down to Melbourne at the end of the month to meet a potential sponsor, so hopefully that'll work out and I can offer heaps of webspace for files as well..

Hey - have you been down yet? How'd it go? *wants details*

"Yes I Code"
Shirts for AGDC 2003:
http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/ladies/5b3d/
http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/ladies/38f0/
http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/ladies/38ed/

quote:Originally posted by Jacana

quote:Originally posted by Souri

I'm planning to go down to Melbourne at the end of the month to meet a potential sponsor, so hopefully that'll work out and I can offer heaps of webspace for files as well..

Hey - have you been down yet? How'd it go? *wants details*

"Yes I Code"
Shirts for AGDC 2003:
http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/ladies/5b3d/
http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/ladies/38f0/
http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/ladies/38ed/

No, haven't been down there yet [:(].. my contact person has been out of office until just last week, and I'm sure my email has been lost in a swamp of his other emails. I should email him again to follow it up.

several thing i have dreams of making, and variously started writing code for

1. a GURPS implementation robust enough to allow magic combat.~ ie scripted game rules (turn air to stone, shape earth. mixed with having a sprite engine with z depth support)

2. Supermodel foodfight, a procedual FPS. You either decrease or increase other peoples weight to terminal extremes, with a characters weight effecting movement speed and reload time, as well as character model. Some thought to lego style weapons that you build ingame from bits you fid to get different attacks.

3. Have quite a few thoughts about MMORPG with procedual models (stats change geometry) and changing gameworld from the inside~ but working with some people on it and can't be more percific at the moment.

~ i'm just a 3d artist who claims to program and likes comics too much....
sample work
http://www.websamba.com/davidcoen/best.htm

_edit, also found 'princess maker' the other day, strangly addictive and could well serve as a interesting scope game to clone.

david - you have very strange tastes indeed, but I should've known that from the conference ;-)

@Daemin, hey, i didn't describe any of the hentai games i have thought about making, consider yourself lucky. ('hentai' derived from japanes word for 'deviant', gomenasai)

you where describing wanting to make a auran engine (whatever the name) RTS, and i was trying to get you to have a stronger concept, and sugest the joy of 'procedual' models which you could quickly design ingame and allow some more creativity on the part of the players if done correctly....

_edit
anyway, what do you expect me to do while draginf polygons around for several hours a day, i want to see the end of this stupid contract work. ARRGH. sleep, go make more LODs, bye

_edit again. don't want to sleep, as that will mean i need to wake up and do more work. anyway, some theory.
from evolution people like to build things, and to destroy things.
things which get into our 'run away' primitive responce also see to cause excitment.

the old MUDs allowed increasted editing of avatar based on game experence, extending to moderator status and ablity to create new areas in a world once l33t status had been reached. Myself, i enjoy powering up character in RPGs, 'princess maker' was the first nurturing game where you raise a child in a fantisy setting with a myriad of options.

_snip, next point was a bit too perverted, other than sounds are important too

David: I've deviated a lot from the design spec that I initially suggested to you at the conference. Take a look at it a tad later when I upload the document.

What did you mention about the procedual models? That sounds interesting, but I don't quite get it now? Do you mean procedually generated - like fractally generated trees - or like super-high detailed models that are procedually culled down on slower machines? - or something else?

in the MMORPG game by procedual models i guess i should say morphing models, where you have several target mesh shapes (neutral, strong, charasmatic) and as the stats change, you lerp to the other models. since i can make a model in under a day i tend to push for things like this. basically an aspect of avatar customisation. (or for perverts, getting measurments about female charaters you have spent too long powering up)

"1. a GURPS implementation robust enough to allow magic combat.~ ie scripted game rules (turn air to stone, shape earth. mixed with having a sprite engine with z depth support)"

Ahh, good ol' GURPS... kind of the "holy grail" of computer game design in a way, isn't it? =) I guess it really depends on just how flexible you try and make the underlying systems. We had a lot of (what I magine to be) similar problems on FF - namely, having to come up with a group of powers (or elements of powers) that could be tinkered with in a formula-based way. I think something a lot more robust COULD be done, but it would really need to be done from the ground up - that is to say, essentially allow the players to have a similar level of control over power construction and methodology as the developers do. That's where you hit a snag, though, I guess - either you wind up being TOO flexible (ie let the player create powers/spells that shoot the game balance to hell) or, alternatively, you lock down some of the options that some people will need for legitimate reasons (NWN's editor's "item level limits" spring to mind).

"2. Supermodel foodfight, a procedual FPS. You either decrease or increase other peoples weight to terminal extremes, with a characters weight effecting movement speed and reload time, as well as character model. Some thought to lego style weapons that you build ingame from bits you fid to get different attacks."

Haha... I dig that. =) Gotta love the odd zany idea... one of my personal favourite ideas I still toy around with is a game tentatively titled "John Hughes High", where you have to make your way through the school halls (starting out as an 80s nerd) and keep doing "cool stuff" until you either become "the unpopular guy who becomes popular" or "the 'ugly' girl who takes off her glasses, shakes out her hair, and turns out to be gorgeous". =)

"3. Have quite a few thoughts about MMORPG with procedual models (stats change geometry) and changing gameworld from the inside~ but working with some people on it and can't be more percific at the moment."

The procedural models thing is certainly an interesting new direction (I'm assuming you, like me, are probably keeping eager tabs on the game "Fable" to see how their taking a crack at it goes =)). Massivley multiplayer stuff's another interesting possibility - some of my prior experience has actually been in working with similar systems - large scale net distribution and commercial multiplayer gaming based from a central server. My "dream game" is actually probably very, very close to being a MMORPG... and, again, is something I toy with from time to time when the mood strikes me. =)

One aspect in particular that I find interesting about MMORPG gaming is that people willingly devote so much time to it (though I occasionally wonder if that's not really exploitation of the players to some extent in a very "slot machine-addicted" sort of way). That's something I'm not sure is really - well, here's that ugly word - exploited enough. A MMORPG is something that has a lot more potential than any other game when it comes to crossing over into someone's "real" life, which is something I'm actually pretty keen to explore at some point. I'm not thinking so much along the lines of that game Majestic (the EA "conspiracy theory" game that I think might've folded a while back), but more just in terms of actual learning of skills in a real sense.

F'rinstance, if you wanted to play a hacker in a MMORPG game, would the player be prepared to actually sit down and study up (through "fake" websites) on how to be a hacker in the game, and have to actually LEARN vital skills for the task at hand in order to do something in the game, rather than just click on a "hack" button? Would they be prepared to have to remember to use a Mark 3 Ice Breaker on a Supra-2000 security system, and know where to connect the wires to the terminal? Or would they find that totally annoying? Would the prestige of being "the best hacker in the game" be greater if you had to actually know your stuff, rather than rely on a numerical representation and repetition of a skill for somewhat more vague improvement? Would the information pass through the channels a lot quicker to the point where it was almost worthless, or would people hoard and guard their private collections of knowledge to retain an edge?

That sort of thing could make for really, really addictive gameplay in some respects, but in others it could be a real turnoff. It's something I'd dearly love to explore, though... there's still not really enough scope to "be yourself" within current MMORPGs, I don't think, and the first product that truly taps into that mentality - in terms of appearance, of skills, of Machavellian little player-based schemes, and of "way of life" for a character - will probably reap big rewards. =)

I still don't know if now'd be the time to try it, mind you. =) Any thoughts on that? =)

- Grif

** Firstly I'd like to apologise to Grif for taking his thread for this time **

Ahh yeah, I get that sort of procedural morphing of models, basically something that was done with Black and White in other words. I get that, and it would be interesting to implement, although in a more scientific fashion IMO. As in defining a model with bones, and then when a character uses their muscles then those muscles grow away from the bone resulting in a larger more muscular frame. Or when they use their right arm more then it grows bigger leaving the character slightly lob sided. Doing this with pre generated models wouldn't be enough I don't think, since you'd (being the modeller) be making several hundred different models (slight exaggeration).

Oh well, I think that's it. Good idea though to include, since morphing isn't generally that hard.

Hey guys, I'd like to show my interest as a level designer/world builder. I've released a couple of maps for Jedi Knight II - created many more which were only halfway completed, mainly experiments...

Technology wise I don't have much input as it isn't my field. As long as there is room to breath for 'creative expression' when designing the levels then that's ok with me :) I do like the idea of procedural morphing though, thats something I really enjoyed in b&w.

Before Christ has my interest, the dinosaur age... cavemen. Combine the two and you get a game which hasn't seen the light of day so far (to my knowledge). I've recently started work on a Dino-Riders mod for Battlefield. Swap all the tanks around with mountable Dinosaurs, with lasers and missiles and you've invoked some childhood memories for many of the people playing that game.

That wouldn't be original enough for a stand-alone game. Though if you put yourself in the shoes of the villagers in Black and White, remove the gods and give each side a Dinosaur to raise - you could have something quite unique. Villagers would be able to select a role they wish to partake in, i.e feed, water, bathe, poopie-cleanup(humor is lacking in a lot of games lately...) and when their dinosaur is fully grown, they'd be able to take them into battle. There would be bases to capture, which would donate a dinosaur to the side who captured it, which then, would also need training up - and protection from other attacks.

May not sound like fun being a villager, but its possible to make it a very enjoyable experience :) Give the dinosaurs weapons of some sort and you have something similar to Dino-Riders, that alows player interaction and control over the dinosaur. Each player would be in charge of an area on the dinosaur, dependant on their role as a villager.

Probably gone into it a bit too much, coulnd't help myself :) But overall, collaboration rocks - I can't wait to see what comes out of this thread.

Project Ego (or whatever it's called now) changes your players model as you play, lots of fighting will give him big muscles etc.
Don't know what technique they use to do it though.

If you're interested in Cavemen + Dinosaurs game, check out B.C. (also from Molyneaux AFAIK). Don't want to create something to similar to something that, based on the designers past feats, will probably be a hit :)
I like the idea of having to raise your war-beasts to take into battle, rather than just building them in a factory, battle-ready etc.
Reminds me a little of a book i read years and years ago where people raised dragons to battle in arenas...no, not like pokemon :P

On the subject of the complex hacking stuff, there are at least 2 things i think about that. I think it would be good, however, if you make hacking complex, then you need to do similar things to other character classes. This will possibly lead you into the realm of needing very fast servers to enable twitch-based fighting for fighter classes. Magic classes could benefit in a very cool way from an interface similar to B&W spells, people playing the game would have to actually learn and remember thr proper hand motions for doing spells. All this comes with a lot of complication that doesn't invade the average MMORPG atm :)
Also, making a game that complex may have a bad effect on mass market appeal, and MMOG's can live or die based on that. When the average player only has a couple hours a week to play, are they going to find the complexity a very large obstacle to playing the game? You would need a very well tweaked learning curve i think.

David, do you have the nudie hack for princess maker? Oh yeah, the demon dress (i think it's called) is really...nice :) *ahem* i'll try not to pervert this thread any more.

CYer, Blitz

Just quickly about procedural modeling at this point - I agree that it's an interesting prospect, but we need to bear in mind here that we shouldn't be building a game as an excuse to demonstrate a cool technological feature (I don't think anyone's really suggesting that, I should add =)). Red Faction and its Geo-Mod tech would seem to be good examples of how this sort of thing can go a bit awry. If we can come up with a cool game concept that would easily have such a feature slotted in, of course, then fantastic. =)

As for Black and White, I have to confess I found it a little vague and, in some respects, really poorly designed. That's a whole other rant for a whole other thread, though. ;) As for the dinosaur-rearing game, though, off the top of my head I could maybe see that working in three different styles:

1) The "Nintendo" style - Something almost Pokemon-like in its aims and combat style, and somewhat cartoonish and simplistic in feel - something you can "tinker" with.
2) The "mech" style - basically a Mech game that uses dinosaurs instead of gigantic armoured robots. Fairly full-on violent and somewhat strategic - perhaps the most "realistic" of the lot.
3) The "strategy" style - The game's style would basically be almost RTS in nature, except as viewed from a single unit's perspective. Think "Sacrifice", perhaps? Probably the most B&W-ish in its nature.

There are probably at least a couple more obvious styles, but those are the three that instantly sprang to my mind - feel free to add any I'm just plain overlooking, naturally. =)

Out of those three, though, I'd say that the simplistic Pokemon-style one would probably appeal to me the most - both the accessability and target audience would be greatest if it was pitched at this kind of level, I think - plus, admittedly, it's probably just what flat-out appeals to me the most in terms of prospective gameplay. The downside would, of course, be that the market for games in the "train a creature and use it to fight, then collect MORE creatures" category is pretty crowded right now - whether or not it would be compelling enough or different enough to stand out from the crowd would be pretty dependant on just what features we could squeeze into it without sacrificing its ease of play.

It's probably a bit late for me to be trying to think of such things right now, so I won't bother, but I'll throw the idea out there so other more concious folks can do the thinking for me - what sort of gameplay could be put into the "being a villager" aspects? It sounds as if that would be where the majority of time would potentially be spent, so we'd need to come up with a way to make sure it wasn't too dependant on repetetive tasks - if going the aforementioned "Nintendo" option, f'rinstance, a "toybox"-style of village with a bunch of little things to muck about with in a really freeform sort of way would probably make for a great way to go. =)

Those are my initial thoughts on the subject, anyway. =) Everyone else, fire away! =)

- Grif

Blitz: "Reminds me a little of a book i read years and years ago where people raised dragons to battle in arenas...no, not like pokemon :P"

Hehe oh well, guess you won't much like the example I used above then, eh? =P

"On the subject of the complex hacking stuff, there are at least 2 things i think about that. I think it would be good, however, if you make hacking complex, then you need to do similar things to other character classes. This will possibly lead you into the realm of needing very fast servers to enable twitch-based fighting for fighter classes."

Yeah, absolutely (in regards to doing much the same for fighting classes). =) That's where it gets tricky, of course - the twitch gaming method is certainly one way of doing it, but twitch gaming in a MMOG is notoriously sucky, as I'm sure we all know. =) My thoughts on how to work around it boil down to its simply being unavoidable to have some things that aren't based on stats (this is me thinking about a specific game concept I've toyed with, admittedly, with combat that revolves around an RPG system and tactical gameplay). In terms of how you could make "learning" applicable to a fighting class, that could boil down to things such as combat manoeuvres that can only be "learned" after completing a test or achieving a goal of some kind that requires other prior knowledge being used.

Hrm... that sounds a little vague and ropey, doesn't it? =) I'll try to be more specific - what if you wanted your squad to learn to "slice the pie" (that is, use a combat-effective method of entry) when bursting in through a door? it's certainly within the realms of possibility that you could let a player "create" entry methods before a mission that could be quick-selected during actual combat. That's one example of how it could potentially work - making sure that techniques are what are learnable and utilised, I suppose. Needs more thinking about and fleshing out, of course, but the possibiliy's there. =)

"Magic classes could benefit in a very cool way from an interface similar to B&W spells, people playing the game would have to actually learn and remember thr proper hand motions for doing spells. All this comes with a lot of complication that doesn't invade the average MMORPG atm :)"

Yeah, that's one feature of B&W that I thought was really well-done, and could certainly be used in a lot of different and interesting ways in other games. =) I've actually toyed around with a couple of brief concepts that involve elements of that mouse-wiggly stuff for execution of combat and whatnot - always thought it could go really well in an RPG franchise where each game focuses on a single class (think "Thief", but more Ultima 9/Morrowind than shooter), each of whom has to "learn" their own particular method of fighting using that kind of technique. Could potentially be very cool... or, on the other hand, a total nightmare. I'm yet to figure out which is more likely. =)

"Also, making a game that complex may have a bad effect on mass market appeal, and MMOG's can live or die based on that. When the average player only has a couple hours a week to play, are they going to find the complexity a very large obstacle to playing the game? You would need a very well tweaked learning curve i think."

Yeah, very true. It's sort of dependent on whether you make that the ONLY focus, I think. If you give the hardcore players the option to be "all that they can be" and then give the more freewheeling players the ability to pick out their own funky character wardrobe, buy an apartment, and furnish it how they see fit while gaining experience at their own leisurely pace... ...that would strike me as a decent way to kill an afternoon, for certain, particularly if that wasn't nearly the only goal available to me (a la The Sims Online). That's sort of how I picture it being counterbalanced, at least. =) Also, certain "classes" would be inherantly easier to just "get up and go" with - it doesn't take a lot of study to be able to pick up a pistol, slide a clip into it, and fire it, after all, but it's probably a lot harder to plug a laptop into a bank's security system and bypass it. That's the other nice aspect of this sort of system - it would bring more of a "real world" balance to proceedings, where not everybody is just "the most useful class" right away. =)

- Grif

quote:Originally posted by davidcoen

several thing i have dreams of making, and variously started writing code for

1. a GURPS implementation robust enough to allow magic combat.~ ie scripted game rules (turn air to stone, shape earth. mixed with having a sprite engine with z depth support)

2. Supermodel foodfight

3. Have quite a few thoughts about MMORPG

1) GURPS is good stuff :) Currently I am working on a MUD (for myself) more or less to use as a demo. I have been following D&D rules and have come up with my idea of races, classes, and alignment. Trying to set up 2 lines of alignment into 1 is quite fun! I am following D&D from the point that its not the concept thats new but how the implementation of the rules into a game make it unique.

2) Not sure I could bring myself to work on a supermodel food fight ;)

3) MMOG's I am very interested in. From playing and beta testing I have a fair idea of the MMOG market.

While I have a very wide interest in games I would say RPG's and MMOG's are there most of my knowldge lies. And as I have already started to nut out some race/class and alignment ideas I would be happy to put those into something.

"Yes I Code"
As found on AGDC name tag 2002

"Magic classes could benefit in a very cool way from an interface similar to B&W spells, people playing the game would have to actually learn and remember thr proper hand motions for doing spells. All this comes with a lot of complication that doesn't invade the average MMORPG atm :)"

Arx Fatalis does this very well - it also uses a method similar to B&W though it requires more than one animation to build up spells. You can memorise up to three spells, but once you use one, you have to memorise it again. These sorts of methods are great, a lot more interaction, beats clicking on a button. Would be good for those with a drawing tablet too ;P

Refering to your 1, 2 & 3 Grif:

1 isn't really the games nature I had in mind. Combine 2 with 3 and its almost spot on. Not sure if you've played Natural selection or heard about it, but if you have then consider something like that but based more on unit building than building construction.

The jist of the teams is that there would be four (or more/less) tribes to choose from. Each would have their own technology/knowledge of weaponry, armor and overall building - similar to how RTS games have differen't attributes to set apart their races. Their knowledge in the above attributes would be displayed on the dinosaurs they build for. If its a tribe with good armor technology then the "saddles" they build for the dinosaurs would appear bulkier, if weaponry - they may have more weapons displaying or more powerful weapons. Other things like tribe powers (AOM God powers) could be put in place too, where players receive some form of bonus if there is more than X amount of them around one another.

What would being a villager entitle? Chores around the village, wood, twine, food, water collecting. What ever tools are needed to create the arsonel/armor on dinosaurs. Villagers would also be able to make weapons for themselves, spears, throwing boulders, anti-dinosaur weaponry etc. At the start they'd have nothing other than a few tools around their camp, a stone axe, pick axe, a beating stone - which would be used to chop down trees and shape wood, mine stone for boulders/better tools and for breaking twine/creating rock dust (smoke bomb? ;P). How fun this would all be for the player, not sure - it's possible to make it fun though. It resembles the start of any RTS game where you have to build up your base/units before mounting an attack.

Should the two tribes start with one dinosaur each? Or should they be required to craft tools which could be used in capturing them? Tribe attributes could come in to play here, x tribe has a better alliance to meat eaters, or flying dinosaurs where as y tribe doesn't. Tribe powers where x amount of players are around each other would definitely play a part in capturing dinosaurs...

Combat methods, villager vs villager wise - I'd like most of it to be close combat and low on ammo. If we have spears, make them cover some distance, but not too much. Keep their numbers low and encourage close quaters combat. Think of Jedi Knight and how well their saber fighting came off. When I think of this I think of two cavemen facing off against each other, dancing around in a circle with spears in hand trying to hit one another making monkey noises ;]

Last but not least, maps could contain 'landmarks' where they would find special types of wood/stone/twine/water. Each differen't type of resource holds its own valuable attribute and requires the other tribe to scout to see what the opposite side is gathering so they can counter it. If only one type of special wood is placed in the map, then villagers would require weaponry to protect themselves from the other tribe whilst hunting there.

@Jacana. it's not sexist if you degrade both genders, then it's just equal opurtunity. Sumo wreslers and muscle bound beefcakes work just as well. though after that mentioning that your 'sheild' material would be sillicon might not be a good idea.

@Gif. Daggerfall had some very nice ablities to change ablities and edit spells ingame. one loved rpg was old 'dungen master' on amiga, first person dungen crawl, 4 people party, practicing activites improved stats. for magic you spent mana points to write runes (first one determining power of spell, you got choice of about 6 and longest spell was 4 runes long) and if you got it right and you skill was high enough it would work when you cast it.

anyway, this thread is for game sugestions? yes?

a RTS. Giant robot fighters. all players get same increacing flow of resources. (interest on unspent) aim is to destoy other player's construction plant. you choose how many points to put into range, speed, armour. choose type of weapons and type of movement, type of brain and sensors... (~record designs for reuse) and then select a spot around the plant to construct the robot at. build speed is divided by how many things you are making~ and make robots that cant move to defend the base.

WARNING: This is going to be a loooooong post. ;)

Jacana:

quote:Currently I am working on a MUD (for myself) more or less to use as a demo.

Good stuff! =) I actually got my start through working on a commercial MUD for local BBS systems... very addictive things, those. =)

In regards to D&D, here's a question I always find interesting to ask: are the rules and classes in 3rd Edition perhaps TOO balanced? And if so, at what point does game balance become a bad thing?

Kris: Hrmm... I have to admit, I'm still not quite sure where the gameplay as a non-combative caveman would come from. It's generally easier to accept doing something that's essentially a "menial task" in a multiplayer scenario because you're building on something as part of a real team, rather than the simulated one you'd be working with in a single-player game. I agree that there's got to be a way for it to be made fun we're just overlooking. =) Perhaps by making getting to "resources" and back something of an adventure in itself... but I still worry about the potential repetitiveness of it - the tendency to make the dinosaur rather than the player the primary focus of the game's attention could be risky.

I have to admit that I'm also a bit unsure of how well dinosaur games are being received at this point in time. Is it a theme that has broad appeal? I seem to recall some earlier Jurassic Park titles (and certainly the Turok ones) having some issues with sales, but I have no idea just what proportion of that was due to the games themselves just being poor. =) Anyone have any idea on those?

================================================================
A Couple of Personal Ideas
================================================================

Just thought I'd throw these ideas out there, most of which I've at least tinkered with design-wise from time to time. Feel free to pick, hack at, and generally dissect to your heart's content. =)

1) The "Adventurers" RPG Series, Game 1 ? ?Ranger?

This game would be intended to be the first in a series of RPGs with a bit of a difference. Each would focus solely on an individual, pre-determined character of a set character class (my personal preference being the class of "Ranger" for the first such game). The lack of flexibility in character creation (ie nearly none outside of clothing, accrued damage, and fighting style) would be offset by several factors - a stronger narrative and the ability for all game mechanics in each title in the series to be geared at providing each title's given class the best possible gameplay experience and options. Gameplay style would most likely be third person and the platform of choice would vary depending on which combat system style was implemented.

Narrative-wise, most of these games would be aimed at starting with character background - that is, each character would begin each game as a child, with gameplay events conveying how it is they managed to learn their own particular profession. Certain set "events" would need to be completed before the character would "grow up" somewhat - maybe with one or two "teen years" portions of the game between childhood and eventually being "grown up" with the whole wide world to explore. Events in these formative years would also determine just what transpires to drag the character into more epic conflicts - a best friend's death as a child, for instance, means the character won't exist later on - will the adventuring guild he would have founded to protect their home town then still exist? The aim would, in some respects, be to go about showing a player-driven story of how the world around them reacts to the choices they make, and how those choices can lead someone who started out as "a regular person" into becoming someone who is in some respects quite extraordinary and important in the scheme of things. There should really be no "right answer", in other words - just realistic reactions to events that transpire, with real-world consequences. "Events", incidentally, would be done via gameplay (to some extent) rather than externally - think of the game Another World and its set pieces that required user interaction for storytelling, rather than Warcraft 3 and its story being basically external to gameplay concerns.

In terms of the world itself, a sense of exploration and wonderment would be by far the most important thing to convey. Semi-stylized in terms of appearance, perhaps - still realistic-looking, but really "classic fantasy". The world wouldn't be so much a massive treasure horde with wonderful creatures everywhere as they would be Tolkien-esque, to my mind - still fairly Earth-like, the kind of place that's very ancient, and that holds quite a few secrets. Magical items would be truly rare and a true wonder, and certain races are truly reclusive or openly hostile. Some things should simply not be explainable by anyone within the game world and are taken as things that "just are", with a somewhat romanticised "some say that..."-style legend to accompany them. The general aim would be to make the world feel like a big and wonderful place to someone who's come from humble beginnings - not simply a place where hugely magical and wonderful things occur on such a day-to-day basis that they're mundane. The events surrounding the player being drawn into anything "epic" would hopefully therefore take on a truly grand feel - something bigger than the player, and something that conveys a true sense of "this will be a large chapter in this world's history, and this kid I've helped grow up from humble beginnings, and who's now seen many wonderful things, will play a major role in it and become a true hero/villain of epic proportions".

Combat as I see it could be done one of four ways: Soul Calibur-ish in style (when a weapon is drawn, combat simply takes on a "one on one" approach, even if there's more than one combatant on-screen - they patiently wait their turn or jump in when their pal gets knocked down, perhaps), a more complex "learn to fight" style (think of the aforementioned Black and White "mouse swipe" system, except used for swordplay), a button combo system akin to the Dynasty Warrios series (fairly simplistic, but fast-paced - ideal for a console) and possibly just the usual simplistic RPG style of "click on whatever you'd like to hit and hope for the best". My personal preference would probably be the first option, which, in turn, would make the game a likely candidate for a console release.

In terms of the game being used as a launch pad for a franchise, future games would be fairly straightforward to explain - the same world, possibly the same time frame, using a different character of a different "class", and with events potentially being reactive to those of the previous game. There's also always the prospect of "multiplayer addon worlds" - that is, adding a game world where friends can play cooperatively through various quests. There's quite a bit of potential for a solid series here, at the very least.

ADVANTAGES OF THIS CONCEPT: It's probably going to be the best concept of these three for simply conveying a specific "feel" of gameplay and demonstrated proficiency at creating a more complex title in a demo form. It would also tackle some decent new areas of gameplay and storytelling (not to mention actual style and flair), hopefully to the point where it would create enough impact for people to truly sit up and take notice - particularly as it becomes more apparent that their choices are actually having an effect to the extent where the gameplay experience might be totally different from someone else's. The fact that it's pitched at being a franchise can't hurt, either.

DISADVANTAGES OF THIS CONCEPT - There'll be a lot of work involved in all the cause-and-effect style of gameplay this would entail - a lot of chances for things to "break" that will need to be predicted and countered in advance, if we want such things to be truly meaningful. Also, the more impact-laden we'd like the storytelling elements to be, the trickier it's going to be to maintain out-and-out quality at all times - these elements could become somewhat hit-and-miss if we're not careful.

2) Gang War

Gang War is, in some ways, my ?dream game?. A team management, squad-based combat, and strategic game rolled into one, the aim of the game would simply be to raise a gang of semi-futuristic street thugs and turn them into the kind of criminal organisation who can rule their home city by taking over sections of ?turf?, and using their individual reputation, the overall rep of their gang, and the reputations of their individual heroes to exert influence. Threaten someone into giving over a local power station, for example, and you can shut down the power to any nearby enemy bases, thereby shutting down their base's security systems. Being sneaky and Machiavellian, too, would come into fairly hefty play ? do you meet with an opposing gang leader in good faith, or set up a sniper to pick him off? What happens if you get caught out? Will any other gang leader ever trust you again? And, perhaps most importantly ? will you sacrifice body armour for the sake of simply making your character look ?cool?, thereby giving him access to certain reputation-based class types like ?the gunslinger? that he mightn?t have otherwise been able to get at?

The real name of the game in Gang War would be customisation ? gangs could be named, given their own in-game logo, given their own organisational chart, and even change to other organisation ?types? based on how they handle events. A gang that deals with opponents and general obstacles by trying to ?convert? people to their cause could get enough of a reputation for it to change into a ?religion?, for example, with the gang?s ?misc. thugs? being assigned the player?s own choice of religious robes and the gang?s various higher-up ?hero? characters being able to be assigned individual titles as the player sees fit. If your characters spend all day wandering around and threatening shopkeepers into paying protection money, meanwhile, you might want them to become an ?Organised Crime? gang ? be that ?family-based? or ?businesslike?. Of course, this means the game?s general tone and mood would be more ?mature? than most existing titles ? drugs, theft, violence, and all other aspects of crime should be at least an option to the player.

This level of customisation would really extend to everything in order to ensure that people always had something to tinker with ? base design down to individual security layouts and the type of software run on vital systems would be customisable by the player, or simply ignored in favour of figuring out which shoes best match their new leather jacket for those wanting a more simplistic ?way of life? for their gang. Internal "gang" emails would be able to be sent and hacked. Intelligence-gathering through ?recon missions? and contacts/informants would be important in knowing how best to take on an enemy emplacement, but not vital ? the guy who just wants to drop a bunch of heavily-armed thugs into his opponent?s courtyard and hope for the best is still free to do so, and will get a fearsome reputation to go with it if he succeeds.

In terms of general ?feel?, the game?s vibe as I picture it would really be very Shadowrun (the pen-and-paper RPG) minus the magic. The graphics technology behind it, meanwhile, would need to be fairly dynamic in appearance ? that is to say, we?d need to counter the ?Oh, it?s a strategy game ? it?ll therefore look pathetic? way of thinking, and do it in great style. Your own individually customised gang has to look damn cool on-screen, after all ? not just be some stats on paper.

Combat would be tactical and mouse-driven ? a free-roaming camera with a three-tier pause system. Space bar once for slow-mo, space bar twice for full pause, and space bar again to go back to full speed. The interface would be as intuitive and mouse-driven as possible (and hence a PC game, obviously), with most options selectable from tiered menus. And for those wondering about how you'd handle more specific combat styles and attacks, yes, I've thought about it already and have something of a decent system for handling it - it actually *does* seem workable, but I won't bother going into it here yet. =)

In terms of missions goals, in some ways this game would be very much like the GTA3 rendition of ?The Sims? ? that is to say, the aim would really primarily be to give the player enough stuff to tinker with that they won?t get bored with it in much the same way that the ?Sim? games do, except there?ll be guns involved for when they want to do something besides put up wallpaper. ;) Naturally, though, there?d still be mission goals ? people offering jobs would be the initial way for a gang to pull itself off the streets, for instance, with larger-scale self-motivation missions being able to be undertaken as more and more resources are made available.

In terms of multiplayer, there would be issues with turning the single-player campaign into something two players could have a go at due to time-management issues (what if player A?s team launches an attack on player B?s stronghold at the game time of 5:05 on day 34, but player B is already involved in something else?). However, there *is* MMORPG potential there ? in fact, the Machiavellian aspects would be a lot better suited and engrossing to such a platform. It would also allow for the aforementioned ?actual learning?-style of character knowledge, which could be something that?s a lot of fun to play around with.

Admittedly, this is just scratching the surface ? more specific design details would obviously clarify things a great deal, but I?d rather not babble on too much more at this point. Suffice to say, though, that it?s the type of game that I could easily see myself losing great gobs of my life to, and a great many people I?m discussed the concept with seem to get pant-wettingly excited about the idea of such a game being made, too.

ADVANTAGES OF THIS CONCEPT: It would be as addictive as... err? a really addictive thing, I suppose, if done right ? customisation and ?building something cool? is really what pulls the players in. Couple that with the more mature themes of GTA3 and it?s a potential large dumpster o?money. And finally, it?s a concept that you can generally easily manage to get people excited about, which is absolutely something we shouldn?t overlook. As a MMORPG, meanwhile, the odds would be good that people would forget to eat, sleep, and perhaps even die from lack of eating or sleeping ? it would provide for a pretty engrossing world.

DISADVANTAGES OF THIS CONCEPT: This would be a truly mammoth undertaking. The art assets alone would constitute some monstrous hurdles in terms of technical issues as well as sheer volume. Also, its gameplay (even if done right) will most likely be very hard to demonstrate as ?really cool? in an initial incomplete demo. Plus, if done WRONG, its gameplay would just begin to resemble a bunch of truly overwhelming options coupled with a pretty nifty gangland fashion design simulator. The MMORPG design option adds more issues to these, of course ? there?d need to be a certain level of true developer-end maintenance for the Machiavellian aspects to truly flourish, for instance.

3) The Updated Flashback

This one?s short and sweet: we could create an updated version of Flashback. Who didn?t like Flashback? Nobody, that?s who! ;)

ADVANTAGES OF THIS DESIGN CONCEPT: It?s short to write out as a concept. Err? and in terms of actual workload, it would be comparatively straightforward and probably quite easy to show our capability to complete it. It would also work on basically any platform.

DISADVANTAGES OF THIS CONCEPT: The primary disadvantage is obviously that it?s simply not anything new under the sun. That might make it harder to sell ? publishers can be very trend-based thinkers, and if it?s not a ?fully 3D? game, then we could be hard-pressed to convince them of its being worthwhile. it might also not be complex *enough*, in some respects.

==============================================================

Well, I guess those are my three not-so-quick-after-all ideas. To break down my thought processes on all three quickly, though:

Ranger ? probably the best combination of ?doable? and ?contains innovativenessism ??.

Gang War ? The hardest of the lot to actually make, but also the easiest to get people a bit excited about.

Flashback Clone ? We?re going to be most likely to be able to complete this in a timely and effective manner, but it mightn?t allow us to escape the shackles of ?simple game development? when we want to at a later date.

Feel free to pick them apart and have a bit of discussion on ?em, obviously. =)

- Grif

I have yet to find anything that is truly balanced :) Someone at some stage will always

quote:Originally posted by Grif
Good stuff! =) I actually got my start through working on a commercial MUD for local BBS systems... very addictive things, those. =)

In regards to D&D, here's a question I always find interesting to ask: are the rules and classes in 3rd Edition perhaps TOO balanced? And if so, at what point does game balance become a bad thing?

complain that something else has more of an advantage than another - such is human nature. IMO if D&D was ever truly balanced they would lose a lot of money *grin* Who would need to buy 89659th edition player and DM books if they got it all right in 3rd.

While not a programmer as such I have spent over a year as an admin on a game based off Legend of the Red Dragon :) Now if that doesn't take you back to BBS days I don't know what will.

- Very much a side note but Derek Sanderson who is working on the MF Xbox title got his start into the MMOG world through Gemstone.

quote:Ranger ? probably the best combination of ?doable? and ?contains innovativenessism ??.

The idea of Ranger sounds very appealing - but then I am very biased. I grew up on pen and paper. Tho with the invention of things like MUD's I lost touch with a lot of the D&D rules...

So in talking about the world changing around you as decisions are made - Are you talking about an advanced Choose Your Own Adventure? [:)]

One of the negatives I have always had with BioWare's RPG's is that it is such a scripted adventure as everything seemed to tie into the main story plot. Morrowind broke the mold with that by allowing for so many different quests to be followed. The downside - for some - of Morrowind was that it was too open and could take too long if one tried to complete as much as they could - and I thought that was called getting your moneys worth from a game.

As for fighting styles - it could be a pain either way. The point and kill style can very much get old. The other side is to use movement or keystrokes to represent the battle - one of the hardest things I found about Everquest (Bard song macros) - after a while of hitting keys over and over again it really took a toll.

Maybe the idea would be to have a character first learn a few basic combat stances and then allow them to marco them somehow? In a sort of pre planned battle attack. Or have a few premade ones that work in defensive, offensive, ranged etc (similar to the scripting with Baldur's Gate).

Just to add to your disadvantage of the concept - people can be very unforgiving of RPG's that have very thin storylines. Even before cause and effect is worked out I think a storyline would need to be very fleshed out. The idea of RPG is to immerse yourself.

"Yes I Code"
As found on AGDC name tag 2002

I just skimmed through this, but gang war sounds like someone has played too much Necromunda :) This s actually a game i'd be very interested in co-operating on, but i highly doubt i'd have the time to work on it because i'm way to lazy and will be working on 2 large and 1 largish project come february already :(
The MMOG aspects of this that i considered when thinking about this game type, was that players would have their own gang, but they would also be part of a larger organization/race/whatever. When you took over territory, they would become your factions territory and anyone in your faction could defend them, you would get a bonus if you were the gang (or one of the gangs) that captured the territory etc.
I think if you run it as a MMOG you have to limit the resource "gathering" potential a fair bit, particularly if the resources go directly to your gang. Everyone would be trying to build stuff everywhere, and people would be disappointed because other gangs in their faction had already built the best spots. However, resource management would still work fine if the resources were allocated from your faction. You would be allocated resources consummate with the work you've done for the faction (buildings built, territories won, enemies beaten, etc.) There'd still be plenty of choices to make with those resources.
The main idea of using factions is so that popping your gang in and out of the game (your gang would just dissappear or something, similar to most MMORPG's) would not be a large problem, the rest of the people in your faction can defend the territory you've won etc.
Anyway, just some ideas.
CYer, Blitz

I LOVED FLASHBACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [:)]
Heavily influenced Prince of Persia type of game, which the current 3d type of game that Tomb Raider and it's sequels were the natural progression of..

quote:IMO if D&D was ever truly balanced they would lose a lot of money *grin* Who would need to buy 89659th edition player and DM books if they got it all right in 3rd.

Very true. =) In regards to 3rd edition, though, they've made it all very "even playing-field" - even EXP charts and very even levels of power progression, for the most part. I personally agree with the folks who say it feels almost like it's been geared towards attracting a video game audience who expect "balanced classes" rather than potentially more realistic missmatching at various levels. =)

quote:So in talking about the world changing around you as decisions are made - Are you talking about an advanced Choose Your Own Adventure?

Hrmm... in a way I suppose I am, yeah, but more open to freewheeling tinkering... certainly not just a bunch of "either/or" options. =)

As another example, I'll go back to the "starting as a kid" point. The first thing that could happen in this game might be that you and your best friend go poking around in a cave you're not supposed to poke around in, with the result being you get chased down by a troll. There might be two ways of "solving" this problem - one being to distract the troll away from your friend, diving back into the cave, and then finding a seperate way out where the troll can't follow. If you try to out-and-out run, though, the troll might give up on you and chase down your friend, killing him (and then in turn being killed by the people of your home town for it).

Thus, you'd wind up with two "future" options for when you hit your teen years - in one representation you'd still have a teenage best friend but there'd still be a troll out there, and in the other you wouldn't have a best friend but the troll would be gone.

Naturally, this form of gameplay would preclude certain aspects from being too "tied in" to the main thrust of events, but the illusion could certainly be built up that all such subtle changes in the world around you had a wider impact. =) There are more complicated examples of how such a thing could work, of course, but this sort of methodology would provide for some interesting options when it comes to dealing with obstacles - cutting off the supply source for a fortress, for example, could weaken its defenders over time, making them easier to deal with on your own as a single swordsman. =)

quote:One of the negatives I have always had with BioWare's RPG's is that it is such a scripted adventure as everything seemed to tie into the main story plot. Morrowind broke the mold with that by allowing for so many different quests to be followed. The downside - for some - of Morrowind was that it was too open and could take too long if one tried to complete as much as they could - and I thought that was called getting your moneys worth from a game.

Most of the criticism I heard was about its being very cookie-cutter in execution in regards to NPC conversation and such... though the "too open" one came a close second, for sure. =) That tended to come from people who loved Deus Ex and cited *it* as having "open-ended gameplay", which I found interesting. =)

quote:Maybe the idea would be to have a character first learn a few basic combat stances and then allow them to marco them somehow? In a sort of pre planned battle attack. Or have a few premade ones that work in defensive, offensive, ranged etc (similar to the scripting with Baldur's Gate).

The stances idea is certainly one I wouldn't mind, but I'd want to be careful about reducing player interaction in combat to too low a level. To be taken on-board in a more mainstream way, I think the combat would need to be fairly dynamic but still user-controlled... though I'm still thinking of it as a console-based title, admittedly. =) Perhaps that's what we're differing on. =)

quote:Just to add to your disadvantage of the concept - people can be very unforgiving of RPG's that have very thin storylines. Even before cause and effect is worked out I think a storyline would need to be very fleshed out. The idea of RPG is to immerse yourself.

In that regard, my hope would simply be that we can do as good a job of conveying a story through player actions and choices as the aforementioned Another World did. =) That's not to say there wouldn't be an overreaching theme, of course... I just don't know exactly how blatant it should be made. Certainly I think the prospect of having the player led along to a small extent would be better than his simply being put in a "here's the big problem, now you need to save the world" position right from the get-go. The growth of the plot from humble beginnings (say, the player's being taken away to go to war as a regular soldier on behalf of his country after his "teen years" were over, or even simply his investigating local occurrances that lead to deeper things) would seem a lot more natural to me than BioWare's chosen "the lord of the land asks you, miscellaneous adventurer who I've apparently heard of, to fix his kingdom by slaying a mega-demon" storytelling method. That's kind of a pet peeve of mine, though, I've gotta admit... not a huge BG series fan (outside of Dark Alliance on the PS2, at least). =)

This is all just hearsay for now, of course. =) I'm quite sure a solid plot can be built along with the modularity of various events - in fact, I think it would be enhanced by the combination in a lot of ways, if we could nut out a way to do it decently. =)

- Grif

Hehe dagnabbit... make one post and two more are there before I'm done. =P

Blitz:

Yeah, you raise some valid points (though I haven't ever played Necromunda, actually... know of it, of course). =) That faction territory stuff's really good thinking, I've gotta say... good stuff! =)

In regards to the MMORPG bit, I was actually simply thinking that players would just take on the role of an individual character, much like most current MMORPGs... sorry, I was rambling on there, so I obviously missed a few things in the explanation. =) That takes a lot of the worry out of team management etc, though, and combined with AI-controlled security measures it brings in some decent incentive for teamwork. The real reason guilds and such things don't seem to work very well in a game like EQ is, to my mind, simply that there's not really a whole lot for a guild to DO aside from things they organise for themselves. If the game's built with guild issues in mind, though, and provides a lot of options for them to play with, I've no doubt they'd be well-used. =)

Souri:

quote:I LOVED FLASHBACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

Hehe ditto! =) Actually dusted off my old copy a week or two ago, and it's made me a bit wistful. It's just SO simple and elegant, though... and the disgruntled and jaded old gamer in me would love to see a repeat of it. It's still a load of fun to play to this day. =)

- Grif

?Kris: Hrmm... I have to admit, I'm still not quite sure where the gameplay as a non-combative caveman would come from ... I agree that there's got to be a way for it to be made fun we're just overlooking. =) ?

Well that?s what this thread is for isn?t it?

I think we need to take a look at a couple of non-game related issues. The main one being that we?re going to be spread all around Australia, what happens if we do get a demo up and a successful pitch? Do we move into an office somewhere? Are we all willing to move? This also plays a big part in how large the project we take on will be. Most of us don?t have commercial gaming experience behind us, if we take on a project, it would probably be best not to be too ambitious about what we want to achieve.

I think a MMORPG is out of the question. Especially for the PC anyway, as there are far too many in the making / already out. With big names like World of Warcraft, Star Wars Galaxies, EverQuest 2 and Horizons all due out within a year / year and a half ? ours would want to be somewhat the best game ever created in order to pull people away from a fan base that was built long ago.

The Dinosaur / Cavemen may not be the best idea gameplay wise ? but it?s different in both game genre and appearance. Other dinosaur games beforehand may have failed ? but was it because of the age it was set it? I don?t think so.

Whilst we don?t have many members at the moment, I think we need to sort a few things out before hand so we can work out exactly what we will be able to achieve. Then we can move on to creating a game design / story etc? that will be easily accomplishable in order for us to stand on our own two feet.

quote:Originally posted by Kris

I think a MMORPG is out of the question. Especially for the PC anyway, as there are far too many in the making / already out. With big names like World of Warcraft, Star Wars Galaxies, EverQuest 2 and Horizons all due out within a year / year and a half ? ours would want to be somewhat the best game ever created in order to pull people away from a fan base that was built long ago.

To argue the other side of this - Yes they all have fan bases and that can be quite a big issue. Not everyone likes Warcraft, Star Wars, EverQuest, or Horizons. EQ and Horizons are very much a fantasy RPG. While they are popular not everyone likes them.

The way you point that out is because they have established names or genres then they are going to be great games and people are going to be playing them no matter what. And that is very wrong :)

One of the main reasons people play MMOG's is the community. Not all titles will have that community. You really have 3 different player bases in MMOG's and its quite hard to cater to all three. You have power gamers, gamers, and casual gamers. Because a lot of games are still about level advancement and attainment of items they fall into the power gamer games. The other downfall about games that cater to power gamers - the rest of the community will never see the whole game.

Recently Earth and Beyond was released. This was quite a good game setup. They seems to be able to balance the power gamer down to the casual gamer. Just in the beta test I think I saw most of the game and my character was level 50 at highest. You actually had to travel around and through some higher level zones to complete fairly low level quests. I was tempted to continue to play EnB after gold but the reason I did not was the community. A great game and nice people I just found the community odd.

Also from the pitch about the MMOG here it really has more of a sci-fi cyber sound (sorry I skimmed over it). Right now the only game that really fits into that is Anarchay Online (and maybe Shattered Galaxey). So there is still an opening for a cyber type MMOG to work and run well. Its still an untapped market :) Not everyone likes fantasy based games or the space of Star Wars.

So I guess the Readers Digest of my post (I can go on for days about MMOG's) is that while there are a lot of games in development there are still untapped markets out there.

"Yes I Code"
As found on AGDC name tag 2002

Perhaps i don't know any better, but i'd take a guess that a large majority of sci-fi fans, and particularly sci-fi fans that play computer games, or itnerested in star wars. I haven't met one yet that isn't as far as i can recall :)

The best way IMO to target the casual gamer for MMOG is to develop a game that actually relies on some skill, rather than just time spent. As far as i know the only MMOG around atm that uses a reasonable degree of skill is planetside (correct me if i'm wrong).
There is actually a brilliant way to get rid of the "time spent" gameplay that runs rampant in MMOG's these days...BUT hardcore MMOG'ers tend to absolutely hate it. Simply make death permanent. When you die you lose all your XP skill etc. Now, this will suck, you spend ages building up your little dude, and then he dies and you lose everything. Answer: Rapid skill advancement. You can create a very powerful character with only a few hours/days of gameplay. This naturally lends itself more to a PvP type game rather than a PvEnvironment game, as there will come a point where a character can easily get very powerful and just pick of computer enemies easily. However, in a PvP style game, you will find that as you become powerful, people will start gunning for you to try and take you down, simply because you are a bigger threat.
Just some ideas again.
CYer, Blitz

quote:Originally posted by Blitz

Simply make death permanent.

Then you are punishing the player. A bit hard to do that when in a group setting. There are people in EQ who actually get mobs to follow them and run into areas of people just to see those mobs then attack the crowd. Also known as training. Perm death would be so abused that it would not be funny. Stupid mistakes happen - power goes out, kids hit the keyboard, you spill a drink on your keyboard.

You want to develop a following not kill it.

Also with Sci Fi I think there's two totally different genres lumped in the one. There are the Star Trek and Star Wars type stuff. Its just stuff in space. Then there is more of the Matrix type. That's more cyber then space. *shrugs* I really see them as quite different.

"Yes I Code"
As found on AGDC name tag 2002

"One of the main reasons people play MMOG's is the community. Not all titles will have that community. You really have 3 different player bases in MMOG's and it?s quite hard to cater to all three. You have power gamers, gamers, and casual gamers. Because a lot of games are still about level advancement and attainment of items they fall into the power gamer games. The other downfall about games that cater to power gamers - the rest of the community will never see the whole game."

One of the reasons I pointed out the names I did, was because they already had a community established. Maybe not Horizons, but WOW has Diablo, Warcraft and Starcraft behind it - all of these have their own online community, it isn't mmorpg environment but it is one where they mingle with others of the same interests. Going to WOW will establish a community that they can relate to due to previous games and player personalities. The same with EQ2, they already have a community from a previous MMORPG - they're focusing on the good and bad aspects of that game and are building upon it. Although it is possible to see it all going wrong in terms of gameplay, I'd vouch that it is unlikely.

These companies have huge development teams behind them. Is it something we would be capable of? And if so, how far could we take it? If we're to reach out and pull people in to our game, we'd need something very solid and intriguing to people. The gang MMORPG idea would probably be able to do so, if executed correctly - but then it comes back to the size of the team working on it. Not to mention the fact that they're spread across the whole of Australia and not in an office for easy collaboration / file transfer with one another.

I hate to be negative about the whole process, mmorpg or no mmorpg - we need to tackle something that we know we'll be able to pull off. I do not doubt our ability to create a game design document on something that would most likely interest a vast number of gamers; I doubt the final result given our working predicament.

ok, i will bite. what is FLASHBACK.

@Grif. re. gangwars. funny, my concern is getting good concept art~ with good concept making the model and texture are quick/easy (and animation isn't that hard). it is just when the 'boss' see the model in the game and doens't like it you loose 3 weeks or more of work... loose that feedback loop and work is quick, just need to get it right first go or be happy with it.
http://www.websamba.com/davidcoen/3d/3d_75.jpg
is something of my own IP which could be used~ grungy, somewhat realistic and animated.

re: death in games (MMORPG). how about having a constant 'karma' and 'skill' rating. so if your 'karma' goes down from killing people and not being nice, when you die, you might not get to come back as a human. (you are now an ork, go get some good karma and get killed) having them all in the same environment could be interesting. (imagining rather slow character powerup to go with preserved skill)

quote:
re: death in games (MMORPG). how about having a constant 'karma' and 'skill' rating. so if your 'karma' goes down from killing people and not being nice, when you die, you might not get to come back as a human. (you are now an ork, go get some good karma and get killed) having them all in the same environment could be interesting. (imagining rather slow character powerup to go with preserved skill)

I still don't think that would be a popular option. MMOG's tend to focus on character development. Either by stats in the game or throught the player community. It would upset a fair few people if they "lost" this character they put so much time into working on. Even changing into an orc.

Not sure how many others have played MMOG's (other then Grif). And no a very big Counter Strike server does not count in a MMOG :) MMOG's tend to feed to one extent or another peoples addictive nature. Some people become to addicted - one player in the guild I was in lost his job because of the game. The time put into a MMOG is quite different to a standard pc game. In MMOG's people put in 1000+ hours in a year. For most of the MMOG's that are out now thats almost a requirement to keep up with the growth of a game. Once you start getting into "uber guilds" you then have people who spend 2000 a year.

Thus far the best MMOG's for death have been either Earth and Beyond where your ship is actually disabled and you can get it fixed by a player or towed back to your last docking station (for a cost) or Asheron's Call 2 which you start back after death with say 2/3 of your normal hit points and through combat and experience gain you work yourself back to full hit points - all that experience for that time goes into getting hp back you do not gain new experience on your tnl(till next level) until you have worked off your "hp debt".

quote:
Q2, they already have a community from a previous MMORPG - they're focusing on the good and bad aspects of that game and are building upon it.

Yes EQ does have a following. It gained that from the original EQ. When they first started development of EQ they did not have a following. Lineage did not start with a following. You have to build that following. One of the great things about MMOG's is you can build up a huge following before you even really open the doors to the game. You can get so many ideas from the community. Have you looked at MF's Citizen Zero page? They have people already developing stories and such - and the game has never been released.

Oh yea - I totall forgot about Eve in the list of MMOG's coming up. I know Eve has quite an following and interest as a scifi MMOG.

MMOG's have quite a unique player base. The loyal will help develop the game for you in ways you never exected (Ultima Online). But you also need to make the people feel like people or they might come back to bite you (Ultima Online has ex guides suing them).

I would suggest people really do go out and research the communities behind the games. If you have not really played MMOG's or ever looked into the communities then its a bit hard to understand the player base that the game could be presented to.

A note on that - NeverWinter Nights has an amazing community! I would say one that rival's a MMOG community. I even mentioned to Ray at the AGDC that I think its the first stand alone game to have built up a community to that level.

"Yes I Code"
As found on AGDC name tag 2002

I still have a _lot_ to read here in this thread, but thought I'd post my game idea:

The high concept: You build combat or explorative vehicles from available materials to achieve set objectives or win battles.

The PR spin: It's kind of like Junkyard Wars meets Interstate 76 meets Robot Wars.

The game design document: http://www.gazunta.com/fun/junkyard.rtf

Basically, you're given a car frame which has several slots on each side. Each level has a number of parts you can attach to the slots. The neat thing is that the parts aren't just conventional car parts, and you aren't limited to what parts can go into which slots.

For example you can put a rocket in the slot underneath the frame, missile launchers in the wheel slots and a giant umbrella in the roof slot. You just made an instant flying missile launcher rocket thingy :) Or you can put a rocket on the back and battering ram on the front and make a giant missile that would be destructive but not very easy to steer. Of course you can just make a conventional I76 style car with guns and a beefy engine, but you get extra points for creativity...

Each level has a set objective, such as find an object before a CPU vehicle does, or go on a land (or sea, or air...) race, or build a vehicle that can (for example) fly up to 250 metres in height. Creativity is the key. I also think multiplayer would be essential, since then you can have people around the world trying to build the best vehicles from parts they find in the single player game.

Anyway, if anyone wants to read the game design document, please do. I really, really like it (and I'm not a car person at all) and I honestly think it's a goer.

OK, now I have about 30 posts on GURPS and MMORPGS to read. Rock! I'm glad everyone is so hyped :)

Just regarding death in MMOG's, i think you need to think broader about it than trying to fit it in with the current crop of MMORPG's. Of course it doesn't work in MMORPG's where character development takes months and years. I'm not saying that at all. I'm talking about a game where you can become the most powerful character in the game in a matter of several game hours...IF you can stay alive! To give a very basic example, think of counter strike where, if you are still alive at the end of the round, you get, say, a health upgrade or an accuracy upgrade. Now add a persistent universe and your partway there. Everytime you kill someone you get an upgrade. As you gain in power, so does your avatar, so people know who the tough guys are.
Thats the basic idea.
Now, interestingly, i initially introduced this idea as a way of targetting the casual gamer, as current MMOG's take way too much time for the average person to really do well/whatever. You replied with an argument that MMORPG's "In MMOG's people put in 1000+ hours in a year. For most of the MMOG's that are out now thats almost a requirement to keep up with the growth of a game. "
This is exactly what i'm arguing against! People shouldn't need to put 3+ hours a day into a game to enjoy it. This is not the way to attract casual gamers! (Although you may attract some casual gamers initially and get them hooked :) )
Permanent death gives some sense of resolution to a sessions play. How often have you played a game, and given it a rest the next time you die? I have plenty. It's an obvious place to stop playing. Now you may suggest my game isn't "addictive" enough as the current crop try to be. But to target the casual gamer you're not trying to get them to play every spare hour. If you can get them to play a couple hours a week, and keep the subscription fee you've done well.
Not all MMOG's have to follow the mould of the previous ones. Theres thousands of options to explore, don't hold yourself back just because of what is popular now! :)
Anyway, thats my rant for tonight.
CYer, Blitz

quote:Originally posted by Blitz

Blitz wrote a lot of stuff just above

Ok :) I didn't see anywhere about taking a few days to reach a "max". So yes if you are building a game up where a character development is short then there should a very equal and opposite penalty.

My experience with MMOG's is that most of them get you addicted by the long term character development so thus has been my assumption of what was being discussed in terms of such a genre.

So if you start a game that follows this idea how do you reward the players? If they keep alive at a certain level for X number of days do they get Y? Some name mention somewhere? There still has to be something to keep everyone interested (I realise for some it will just be creating the biggest and baddest character).

"Yes I Code"
As found on AGDC name tag 2002

I would tend to disagree with you, by far the most popular way to get into the game industry is to create a mod for a game. For that generally you would need programmers but there are several on Sumea already. Still if you can make a mod for a game, a good one, and show it to the game company that made it, and they like it, chances are that you'll be most of the way to getting a job there.

Sure the cinematic thing would be cool, but that would require a lot more time IMO, especially to craft the story of the cinematic, get the camera angles, panning etc correct and all the other things necesary to make a good cinematic.

The best thing to do is to actually get something done!

"I would tend to disagree with you, by far the most popular way to get into the game industry is to create a mod for a game."

True, it's popular. =) I don't think that really equates to its always being the best option by default, though. It's certainly probably the best way of applying for a DESIGN position, I'll grant you, because that's a notoriously difficult field in which to demonstrate a proficiency, but outside of that, MODs tend to be fairly behind the 8-ball in terms of showing truly "currently applicable" game development techniques. 'Sides which, if every man and his dog's submitting a MOD and a showreel, it could be a good idea to submit something that goes against the grain, right? =) A game pitch (of sorts) would be a fine way of doing that, to my mind. =)

"Sure the cinematic thing would be cool, but that would require a lot more time IMO, especially to craft the story of the cinematic, get the camera angles, panning etc correct and all the other things necesary to make a good cinematic."

True, that can be a pain in the butt, but it's still only scripting. That's a lot simpler than sorting out buggy netcode and reshaping whole chunks of game code into a whole other game right off the bat by a long ways. =) The fact it could be done without having to alter existing game code in any truly significant way for the "trailer" portion is a time-saver that can't be ignored, either, to my mind.

"The best thing to do is to actually get something done!"

I think the implication that this wouldn't count as "getting something done" might be a bit harsh. =) Besides, it wouldn't simply have to be "just a cinematic". As I said, it would probably make for quite a nice bridge into creating a gameplay demo of some kind, if it came to the point where people were so inclined. =) If it would make you feel any better, maybe think of it more as a "game pitch" than a simple cinematic - could put together a pretty spiffy pitch kit and all... again, if people were so inclined. =)

- Grif

By the last quote "The best thing to do is to actually get something done!" means that everything is all well and good, the cinematic, the mod, a game etc, is all well and good as long as it can be completed within a timeframe and polished too.

It's not finished until you're done the first 90% followed by the last 90%, meaning that to get something done in that sense requires tremendous effort to get all the gfx, menus, options, finished, and all the bugs ironed out.

quote:Originally posted by Grif

Howdy, folks. =)

This is my first post 'round these parts, so I'm admittedly a bit unsure as to how my making this suggestion will go over. Thought it might be worth bringing up, however, so here goes. =)

Hey, that's what this forum is for [:)].. everyone's opinion (as long as it's constructive) is always valued on this site..!

You do make some very interesting points. I never knew industry types looked so poorly on those who participated on mods, although I can understand that they can't spend too much on playing any given mod supplied when there are hundreds of other applicants work that needs to get looked over. But hey, with the mod backed by this website, I'm sure they can find some extra time for it! [;)]
An animation/trailer like what your suggesting does make sense, especially when there are no programmers on board as yet. Mods are just more interesting to do though when you're able to play and have fun with your results. The net code isn't going to be touched at all for what was planned, and game code would be really small (I hope!), since the gameplay talked about would be a minor change to the UT2k3 game modes..

Anyway, having said all that - I have got to say that I won't be able to participate in the mod anymore unfortunately. I'm going to be heavily involved with a startup, working on a game content.
I know there's only a small handful of people interested in doing a collaboration, and I do hope they can get something off the ground and get some work going!

Souri - so you're working with a start up eh? Can you give any specific details?

Daemin: "By the last quote "The best thing to do is to actually get something done!" means that everything is all well and good, the cinematic, the mod, a game etc, is all well and good as long as it can be completed within a timeframe and polished too."

Ahh, okay. Sorry, thought you meant something a bit different (obviously). =)

Souri: "You do make some very interesting points. I never knew industry types looked so poorly on those who participated on mods, although I can understand that they can't spend too much on playing any given mod supplied when there are hundreds of other applicants work that needs to get looked over."

Yeah, it's a bit scary given the amount of time most teams sink into such a thing. The mainy problem is that unless the MOD is quite heavily modified, it's sort of "the game it used to be with different graphics". The only people I know of who were hired on the basis of a viewed MOD while working in my old position were a couple of designers. In terms of art and programming, though, it was always viewed as more important to have done your OWN work - showreels seemed to be deemed more effective than in-game MOD work by the higher-ups in our art department, that's for sure. Programming work was generally considered more impressive if it was on a small game done from scratch. 3D work is important, of course, but I think the main problem there is that it can be a little obtuse as to just what (if anything) was touched in terms of actual 3D engine code when you create a MOD. If you can manipulate Direct 3D or DirectDraw on your own terms, though, as opposed to using someone else's base code, it seemed to be deemed a bit "better"... or that was my impression of how the programming guys thought about such things, anyway. =)

"Mods are just more interesting to do though when you're able to play and have fun with your results."

No denying that. =)

"The net code isn't going to be touched at all for what was planned, and game code would be really small (I hope!), since the gameplay talked about would be a minor change to the UT2k3 game modes.."

It all sounds decent and comparitively simple compared to, say, Natural Selection, yeah. =) I'm admittedly viewing this from a "folio piece" viewpoint, admittedly... just trying to think of what would make people in the "hiring" situation maybe take a bit more notice than they otherwise might. Not meaning that in a bad way, of course... the "guy who's seen too many bad applications" mindset that a lot of hiring types have can be a tough hurdle to overcome, is all. =)

"Anyway, having said all that - I have got to say that I won't be able to participate in the mod anymore unfortunately. I'm going to be heavily involved with a startup, working on a game content."

Good luck with it! =) Hope it goes well. =)

- Grif

Perhaps we should look at just making an 'add-on' package for UT. As we have no coders, yet a handful of artists, it shouldn't be too hard to set a theme and create some models & levels based around that.

We do have coders
and we don't have to change much at all for it to become greatly different to the original
Also i dissagree, most games companies know there is alot of talent in mod teams and alot of jobs now ask for development or mod experience. Sure they may be seen by the pros as rookies but would you put more trust in a rookie or someone with 0% experience?
The cinematic would be alot harder to do and take more man power and hours as well. Otherwise you end up with just an average trailer (which won't impress anyone) not a good one.

It is infact ants who are the true rulers of this world!!!

"Perhaps we should look at just making an 'add-on' package for UT. As we have no coders, yet a handful of artists, it shouldn't be too hard to set a theme and create some models & levels based around that."

Could work, sure. =) I'd be cautious about maybe going a slightly TOO simple option in some respects, though, I should add... I guess it sort of depends on how complex you think you can make the added art assets. =)

"Sure they may be seen by the pros as rookies but would you put more trust in a rookie or someone with 0% experience?"

Well, that's a bit of a no-brainer, I'll grant you. =) It wasn't really the point I was trying to make, though. =)

Anyway, I guess it's sort of a moot point in some respects... I can only say what I've seen and think personally, after all. =) If the MOD's indeed still going strong (which it sounds to be) then I wish those involved good luck with it... look forward to hearing more about it as things go ahead. =)

- Grif

quote:Originally posted by Daemin

Souri - so you're working with a start up eh? Can you give any specific details?

Not really.. they're some programmer friends of mine who have spent a good year or so working on an engine.. I'm redesigning their website too, so you should hear something about it soonish.

I know Damien has some ideas about working on this.

Might be worth while to get in contact with him. Also I think he's talked with David Coen about doing some of the art work... :)

"Yes I Code"
As found on AGDC name tag 2002

Yeah, Blitz and I are in the midst of doing design right now. I've spoken to David Coen at the conference about doing some of the art, but he didn't really swing with the design idea I had then so he isn't involved with us atm. We do have a different idea to what we had then, and we still need a fair amount of artists to join up, but more details will be put up later once we have the design idea pitched to Auran and we have the engine.

Don't get too enthusiastic though, because I would want to keep the team small, of a maximum of 6-8 people including the 2-3 that we have now. However if there are enough people on this site that want to make their own team they are more than free too, competition is a good thing, since there is more than one prize up for grabs ;-)

Well i would certainly like to be in a team. Winning one of those p4 comps would also mean i would actually be able to play ut2k3 as well as mod for it. [:D]
Anyways i gots an idea which (if we have some good coders) would be a sure shot at 1st place if we can pull it off in time and have the coders who know their stuff well enough.

That which makes us human will inevitably destroy us.

Everybody has ideas, its the problem of sorting through them, culling them down and then implementing them that will get most people. Also THe programmers will have to get familiar with the Auran Jet engine and its limitations (doesn't have an in built scripting system for one thing) etc.

True but most people have the "wouldn't this be cool" ideas and haven't thought through the other aspects of a good game idea.
The idea i have is more aimed at appeasing Auran, although i think it would be heaps fun as well [8D]
Think about why they are doing this comp, mainly so they can get a whole hell of a lot of varied demos to promote their engine at half the cost and time. They are after demos to shift units of their engine to developers so i modelled my idea around that fact.
Say the word if your interested in hearing about it. [:D]

That which makes us human will inevitably destroy us.

I don't believe the judges are actually all from Auran, although they are selected by auran (i think)
CYer, Blitz

We're fine with the ideas thing at the moment, we've looked through several different game types and genres as possibilities and selected something that we like, and can create, and we are in the midst of writing our design document.

There's no doubt that Auran are promoting their engine in this competition, but its better than having a lot of people make their own engines and barely get any sort of gameplay done, with the engines being of various quality and with plenty of bugs etc.

Anyways as soon as we submit our entry to Auran, get accepted, and have our Auran Jet Engine Disks sent to us we'll reveal our concept / design, and start looking for some artists. I figure that we'll need about 2 or so modellers, about 1 or 2 texture / 2d artists, and possibly a level designer later on.

Time will tell.

Well thats kewl
i'll be happy to help if i can [:)]
that is if i like the idea [:p]

It is infact ants who are the true rulers of this world!!!

If you guys (Blitz, Daemin etc) need a forum to chat about your collaboration for the Next Years Game comp, and I can make a private section up here for those involved to chat privately amongst yourselves about your project.

Nah, we have access to an IRC channel, and we chat regularly on ICQ.

Although you could expect an announcement from us in the first week of the new year about what we are doing.

Things are going a bit slow on the mod front - you're free to come up with some concepts if you like. I might sit down when I'm free and do some concepts for anyone to model.. or if anyone else wants to draw some concepts, feel free..

Well good news for me, i finished school yesterday (i spent today doing as little as possible of anything) so i'll be able to start on things. I'll try to do some concepts in photoshop and maybe crystal mesh or tariq could make them... well good [:D]
I suck at doing concept and that kind of thing in photoshop and my drawings aren't really that great. I would love to have a scanner so i could get my scribbles onto computer.
Also i think i'll fire up the word processor and work on a treatment for the mod useing the few ideas that people have submitted. That may go up in the sumea mod section of the webpage depending on what souri does with it. It will be mainly my ideas and will be fairly basic, a foundation if you will which i really hope people will contribute to.
If crystal or tariq reads this can you get in touch with me over ICQ if you have it (too slack to look you up [:p] hey i only finished school yesterday)

Bloody hell its a giant harmonica!

quote:Also i think i'll fire up the word processor and work on a treatment for the mod useing the few ideas that people have submitted. That may go up in the sumea mod section of the webpage depending on what souri does with it. It will be mainly my ideas and will be fairly basic, a foundation if you will which i really hope people will contribute to.

Post it here and I'll chuck it on the mod page..

For the hunter vs hunted mode, think of a tweaked Version of the AvP2 hunter mode for reference

100% chance of PAIN, in the GLAVEN

When I finish my model, I will put up the mesh for anyone who wants to try and skin it. The best ones will be chosen for the mod, I guess. There are quite a few really talented skinners on this site, so hopefully some really cool stuff can be done. I'll be putting up the mod section REAL SOON (just been busy recently), and when that goes up, I'll do a call for a coder/scripter on the main page..

Hey meatex, Have you shared your "Preyers" Idea with everyone. If you don't want to fine, but i think it's appropriate for what we are trying to do

100% chance of PAIN, in the GLAVEN

Thought i would try to resurect this thread and see if anyone is still really interested in doing the mod, cause it takes a lot of time and effort to organize and plan a mod so i will do it if there are still people interested.
I wacked UT2K3 on my machine and had a little play (got from 3 - 7 frames per sec so i think you can imagine how much fun i had[:p])
However i did see its potential. I also tryed out upaint and that is an awsome tool. I have no idea what that kat thingy was cause i couldn't get anything to work in there in the 2 mins i used it for [:D]
So what im after is a quick show of hands of who wants to see this mod continue and who wants to be involved.

It is infact ants who are the true rulers of this world!!!

I'd like to be involved as a level making chimp, possibly textures also. I think it would be great if it were to go ahead - its not everyday you have a forum in your own country playing host to people from all fields of game development.

I'm still keen on doing it. Most of me time, however, is being taken up with a lot of things at the moment (the website, and some other design related work) at the moment. I'm definately going to do what I'm set out to do, it's just taking a bit longer..
Having said that, there's nothing stopping anyone else from doing something.. if you want to do a map/level, just make it futuristic and design it to be playable.. you'll have to use the UT characters in the meantime, but once I have a character done and set up or Meatex does, you can use that..

Can i Help in anyway? i could do some concept sketchs, Bah, S0rry i r n00bish

~z e r 0

im still keen, ive started some weapons tho there mostly just for the hell of it.

and i dont have unreal either yet so... if someone would want to send me it... ?

?

email me plz !

Uhmm.. please refrain from using the forums as a way to share programs, please. [:)] not good! hehe

Sure, you're most welcome to do concept sketches.. If your ideas are good, I'm sure someone will model it.. It doesn't matter if you don't think you're very good.. the purpose of the mod is to at least get some practise/have some work to show of.. and have some fun..

Okay well i think i may as well go and do a docco for the mod.
If anyone does concept art email it to me at araluen@netspeed.com.au so i can stick it in the docco [:D]
Also i'll be happy to model some things cause i have alot of free time and little to do (even though i should be looking for a job[:p])
Now would be the time to kick off the random suggestions and ideas for any aspect of the mod you can think of [8D]
Just remember the general outline of the mod and keep the ideas relevant to it. Otherwise go nuts. [;)]

It is infact ants who are the true rulers of this world!!!

I was kind of thinking the same thing from the start, I didn't say anything cause i really didn't mind either way (although i do prefer playing FPS)
There are lots of different mods which we could borrow ideas.
I like what i have seen of ut2k3 engine however i am doomed to never be able to play it as no matter what i try i can't get my new mobo/duron 1300 to work [:(]
Anyways i agree with you totaly. If we could get a coder (check out gamedev.net; flipcode.com and gamasutra) i think we should try a multiplayer style oni (play that game it's kewl, only 3d anime game that is still like anime)
FPS is the way to go and will be for sometime, the genre just provides more imersion and atmosphere.
Anyhow i think we should go FPS, i'm interested in hearing what the others have to say on the matter [8D]

Bloody hell its a giant harmonica!

I like the idea of an fps, unfortunatly I'm busy with other mod work, but I'll help out with ideas

Lead paint: delicious but deadly!

I like the sound of Melee mod, Different weapon classes with certain abilities, sort of like rune but with special moves, blocking etc etc, slightly technical while still being fun.
I've always also wanted to make a street fighter style beatem'up, but those games suck on a keyboard and not that many people have control pads

Lead paint: delicious but deadly!

quote:Originally posted by Fluffy CatFood

I like the sound of Melee mod, Different weapon classes with certain abilities, sort of like rune but with special moves, blocking etc etc, slightly technical while still being fun.
I've always also wanted to make a street fighter style beatem'up, but those games suck on a keyboard and not that many people have control pads

Lead paint: delicious but deadly!

I've got a control pad.

Well if a fighter is in the works, count me in. Alternatively, maybe there should be a brainstorming thread for what sort of FPS to go for. If you need some concepts...

EDIT - where did my Psycho Mantis avatar go?

I've made designs for one of the characters .. I'll scan it in and put it up probably on thursday night or something.. I could finish it in 5 minutes, but I am in dire need of an eraser, and I don't have one in the entire house! [:)]
I've never played Rune, but as long as it isn't a deathmatch type of game, then I'm happy. [:)]

FPS ideas... well, a baby i have adopted is procedural game play.

for instance, game play variable effect game play. (simple i know) but from moving slower when you are dammage to more interesting things like the following

"super model food fight"
can do 2 types of damamge, remove health or add health. you die when you become too thin (0 health) or fat (200 health).
the health determins speed of movement (low health, move faster) and time taken to reload weapon (high health, reload faster)
sheilds where sillicon, and it reduce the amount of health change from dammage.
had a piece_meal weapon system here you could find different weapon bit to be assembled together to produce different effects at cost of reload time and ammo.
(even wrote up a design document detaling all this and more, on cd somewhere)

DSC

well that does sound technical

maybe a futuristic counterstrike ?

ewwwwww, no more tactical anti-terrorist shooters!!!!! :)
A fighting game would be more original.
As for Rune, its a third person adventure, you play a viking out for revenge, you get swords clubs and axes and do a lot of dismembering of monsters right out of norse mythology, It didnt really sell too well but it was kind of cool.
Epic is planning a mod competition in the coming weeks, if the sumea mod gets of the ground, it should be entered

Lead paint: delicious but deadly!

quote:Originally posted by Fluffy CatFood

ewwwwww, no more tactical anti-terrorist shooters!!!!! :)
A fighting game would be more original.
As for Rune, its a third person adventure, you play a viking out for revenge, you get swords clubs and axes and do a lot of dismembering of monsters right out of norse mythology, It didnt really sell too well but it was kind of cool.
Epic is planning a mod competition in the coming weeks, if the sumea mod gets of the ground, it should be entered

Lead paint: delicious but deadly!

I agree - if we do a FPS, we might as well do something different. a 4 player co op level for example.

As for a fighter - you'd have to have a control scheme in mind. PC's aren't really cut out for them - at least not with the sort of complexity that console/arcade fighters have. Or do something really old school - like a scrolling beat em up or shoot em up but with some 3d graphics. Maybe even a platform game?

NOT a fighting game like MK or tekken or anything like that
YUK!
An Oni Style fighting game would be great if we do a fighter and the control system for it is easy to use and good (would of been better if you could of changed the controls)
Anyway i think we can easily rule out a CS clone
We could do a AVP2 hunt mode style mod
That is soo much fun [:)]

Bloody hell its a giant harmonica!

id like to give a vote towards a side scrolling and another to "the hunt" :)

Hmmmm, co-op is an area that hasnt been as exploited as some other things, sounds good.
A theme I dont want to see is WW2 crap, everyone seems to want to make one, bah I say.
I like horror. Horror FPS are rare, undying and systemshock2. Anybody seen dawn of the dead?
Its a zombie movie thats a cult hit, its pretty good. I like like the sound of cutting down legions of the un-dead cannon fodder with various implements of destruction. Of course that ideas limited.
HMMMM curse this mental block of mine!!

Lead paint: delicious but deadly!

The undead idea would be fun for a couple of minutes
Also why a 2d scoller?
If we are going to do that we might as well do a mod for a game like space invaders (okay an exageration but you get the point)
Has anyone here played Oni?
Also co-op would be kewl but we can't really do that without doing a single player game as well :)
You do get a kind of co-op game if its like 2 hunters against 8... well hunted especailly if we could get the ut2 AI to work in our mod (shouldn't be too hard to get them to be hunted characters depending on how similar they are to current bots)
Anyways i gtg so i'll put my vote on the hunters idea

Bloody hell its a giant harmonica!

I'm in strong favour for a futuristic look, mainly, as I mentioned earlier, it encourages creativity.. Personally, I love Counterstrike, but I do know why you'd cringe if there was ANOTHER Counterstrike clone out there.. but I think that gametype is pretty cool, and not too complicated to get into.

I do like the idea of 'the hunt' too (unfortunately I haven't played Aliens vs Predator.. I haven't played Oni either)..

So what I'm suggesting is that this mod have perhaps 2 (or maybe 3) game modes.. Counterstike has 2 game modes.. (hostage rescue and defuse)

I'm rooting for a team-based shooter ala Counterstike for one of the game modes... we'll have our own original ideas in that though. I'd be keen to keep the double jump and shield, and adrenaline that UT2k3 already offers in it.. just make it more slower paced, have some vehicles etc.. UT2k3 is perfect for it.

.. about the scrolling fighting game - they do sound like fun, but as my reasoning was that it might not be as lasting in terms of gameplay as compared to a FPS..

Anyway, check out my robo design. [:)]

Doesn't CounterStrike have:
Hostage Rescue
Bomd / Defuse
Escape
Assault
Gameplay modes? even though the first two are the most popular.

i wouldn't underestimate 2d games. and you could get some great effects with 2d gameplay in a 3d engine. but anyway, 'futeristic counterstrike' brainstorm... well, how about something where each time you die, you are reincarnated on the loosing side in 2way battle.
still like the procedual design stuff, and having peicemeal weapons is part of this concept. either r_type hold down and charge for bigger attackes, or add on bit of weapon that modify the effects (add this bit for x2 damage, x2 reload tim and x4 ammo) though then again, hear hints of dukenukeem having great DM as of creative weapons (freeze, shrink, noise)

DSC

quote:Originally posted by davidcoen

i wouldn't underestimate 2d games. and you could get some great effects with 2d gameplay in a 3d engine. but anyway, 'futeristic counterstrike' brainstorm... well, how about something where each time you die, you are reincarnated on the loosing side in 2way battle.
still like the procedual design stuff, and having peicemeal weapons is part of this concept. either r_type hold down and charge for bigger attackes, or add on bit of weapon that modify the effects (add this bit for x2 damage, x2 reload tim and x4 ammo) though then again, hear hints of dukenukeem having great DM as of creative weapons (freeze, shrink, noise)

DSC

David's got a point. Have you seen what Contra:Shattered Soldier looks like? It looks fantastic.

The benefit of 2d gameplay in a 3d engine is that you don't get camera control issues (although these probs don't really occur in 1st person games, mainly 3rd person).

If we did something like Contra - there would still be room for plenty of creativity. Nice fx, animations, models, bosses etc.. these would still have to be done. One thing's for sure, it look waaay different from most other mods out there and everyone enjoys the old school flavour. Throw in a 2 player co op mode and voila!

Platform shooters are cool, but even with co-op play modes, we're talking about a limited replay value when you compete with AI and when the game actually has a goal. [:)].. what happens when your co-op mate dies off? What's driving you to carry on by yourself (especially after you've already finished it)? I love Contra, Metal Slug etc but I couldn't imagine playing it over and over and over again. It just doesn't have that lasting ability comparatively to a FPS team based shooter where you're up against human opponents.

quote:Originally posted by Souri

Platform shooters are cool, but even with co-op play modes, we're talking about a limited replay value when you compete with AI and when the game actually has a goal. [:)].. what happens when your co-op mate dies off? What's driving you to carry on by yourself (especially after you've already finished it)? I love Contra, Metal Slug etc but I couldn't imagine playing it over and over and over again. It just doesn't have that lasting ability comparatively to a FPS team based shooter where you're up against human opponents.

Yeah true. But if we did a FPS mod - it'd be a couple of levels at most, so I suppose you could say there is limited replay there but the final decision is yours I guess. I'll go along with whatevers decided[:)]

I've always thought a good way of getting around the 2p Co-Op death is to have shared credits. That way you usually die at the same time.

quote:Originally posted by JonathanKerr
Yeah true. But if we did a FPS mod - it'd be a couple of levels at most, so I suppose you could say there is limited replay there...

Who says we are limited to only a couple of levels [8]?
Sure we will probably only have a few average levels to start off with but when ppl get used to UT2 mapping there will be more maps that are better quality.
We need a hunt mode cause if you ever played that on AVP2 you'll know how much pant exploding fun you can have (with taunts and stuff)
That could be teamplay too
Then we could have another mode which is like CS on acid (thats the impression i get when you talk about it souri) If you go out and get desert crisis that a similar kind of idea. Its like CS but weapons are taking from movies like aliens and others.
So this is what i suggest
Seeing as there are ppl who like the "cs on acid" kind of idea and others who like "the hunt" idea rather than trying to choose lets just do both! [8D]
Maybe we could also do maps with 2 LODS so people who don't have top'o'the line computers can still play it
Cause i'll probably have to wait till around 2005 till i can play ut2
Everything i would do i would do at AIE
anyway im really annoyed atm so im going to go

Bloody hell its a giant harmonica!

+

quote:Originally posted by Meatex_Salami

quote:Originally posted by JonathanKerr
Yeah true. But if we did a FPS mod - it'd be a couple of levels at most, so I suppose you could say there is limited replay there...

Who says we are limited to only a couple of levels [8]?
Sure we will probably only have a few average levels to start off with but when ppl get used to UT2 mapping there will be more maps that are better quality.
We need a hunt mode cause if you ever played that on AVP2 you'll know how much pant exploding fun you can have (with taunts and stuff)
That could be teamplay too
Then we could have another mode which is like CS on acid (thats the impression i get when you talk about it souri) If you go out and get desert crisis that a similar kind of idea. Its like CS but weapons are taking from movies like aliens and others.
So this is what i suggest
Seeing as there are ppl who like the "cs on acid" kind of idea and others who like "the hunt" idea rather than trying to choose lets just do both! [8D]
Maybe we could also do maps with 2 LODS so people who don't have top'o'the line computers can still play it
Cause i'll probably have to wait till around 2005 till i can play ut2
Everything i would do i would do at AIE
anyway im really annoyed atm so im going to go

Bloody hell its a giant harmonica!

It's good to aim high, but if it's our first mod, like Souri said, it's better to aim for a realistic goal. That's why I reckoned with a couple of levels. From what I remember from the AIE dip II game last year, it took them about 8 months to have a couple of levels, 10 or so characters (?) plus the actual gameplay up and running. It seems to take longer than it looks. That was them studying full time. We are doing this in 'spare time' which varies from person to person.

I haven't UT2, so can you explain these hunt modes or whatever?

So what sort of a art direction/theme are we looking for?

I was hoping for a futuristic look. I've pretty much set my goal of doing *at least* one character model, and one level. If it turns out that no one else contributes, I can offer something playable with that. [:)].. I think you've all played Counterstrike before, and that shows that you don't really have to have many, many levels for people to enjoy it. A few really good ones is all that's needed, the rest is all bonus. Heck, I'd say we could pull it off with 3 good maps, and 2 character models for that game mode.. and a few more maps for the hunt mode..

bimbos vrs jocks (hey, if it is a mod, then it is free licence to be sexsist and or politically incorrect)

the earth has evolved to two enclaves, either hunting the others down. the beautiful, fast moving bimbos and the slower heavly armed jocks.

will be back as soon as i find a good beer idea, but did have one where you where chasing waitresses who where carriying beer, the aim was to capture the waitresses but you are too slow, as you drink beer the waitresses look better and you move faster but loose control...

DSC

AIE dip2 2001 (febuary - december)
20 ppl in art team produced;
-basically one complex level in the end
-around 10 playable characters, couple of non playables
-animations
-textures
-scenery
+more

4 programmers
-UT engine & c++
-ai
-lighting
-integration of characters and items into engine
+more

not all of the 20 artists pulled their weight though... a core group of 10 or so were the harder working

so thats it then ?
a futuristic CS clone with diffent play modes like "the hunt" ?
sounds great to me :)

Well don't forget UT characters are 1/4 animation 1/4 model and the rest is calculated by the engine (mmmmmmmmmmm)
Anyhow i reckon i could do a character and a map (just take me like 1 month to compile and i won't be able to test it)
Anyhoo
To Kerr man the hunt mode from avp2 has one "team" as the hunter/s and the other as the hunted/s (bad grammar i know)
You can set the ratio of hunter v hunted and you can choose which race is the hunter and which is the hunted. When one hunted kills a hunter they switch characters with the hunter (only the hunters get points for kills)
That is the jist
it is fun doing multiple marines versus a lone predator (cause of all the 1337 guns and ammo he has and his strength and marines being not so strong)
I also vote for futuristic (i think we can set that much in stone right now)
anyway just some short colour commentary from me and im off [8D]

Bloody hell its a giant harmonica!

quote:either r_type hold down and charge for bigger attackes, or add on bit of weapon that modify the effects (add this bit for x2 damage, x2 reload tim and x4 ammo)

That is an absolutely brilliant idea.. we should definately implement that.

quote:Originally posted by Souri

quote:either r_type hold down and charge for bigger attackes, or add on bit of weapon that modify the effects (add this bit for x2 damage, x2 reload tim and x4 ammo)

That is an absolutely brilliant idea.. we should definately implement that.

Yeah - it'd add a fair bit of strategy. What would stop people from walking around with a charged gun and getting loads of one hit kills? Or are there shields and stuff? Bear with me, I haven't really followed the UT2k3 hype.

the way of stopping people walking around with a loaded supercharged gun could be if it when off: (randomly/ if you got hit/ if you moved too fast/ whatever)

perhaps i should stop flooding people with ideas (as it leads to "wow, thats cool, lets add it") and listen to sugestions for the game situation. (and then add appropriate things on)

so far we seem to have "futeristic" and "hunting".
are we in a war torn world? technology running rampent? aliens? genetic modifications? polution causing posioning and starvation? capitalism? religion? moon colinist rebelling?

though anyway, the following was the weapon description from my 'supermodel food fight' game design// basically working backwards from q3
WEAPONS------------------------------------------
can drop weapon bits.
can only carry one of each bit.
shots start from in front of player (on edge of collision object) at 1m height, same as the camera object for the player's view.

There are two base weapons, both zero range and no need for ammo. acquiring these weapons does 50 points damage of their type, drop them to get it back);-
food 'gain' 'contact hamburger' (picking one up the player gains 50 food points...)
food 'loss' 'lyposuction unit' (picking one up the player losses 50 food points...)
so if you begin the game on the super model side, you get a 'lyposuction unit' and start with 50 food points
'base' (0.5m radius sphere, 1/12 second reload, 1 damage, 0 ammo) can't gain splash without range

There are 3 weapon power ups; -
'Range' (0.1m radius shot)
'Blast' (1m radius shot, x10 (ammo cost, damage, reload time) but shot travel a step slower, and gains splash if ranged)
'Supercharge' (x2 radius, x4 (ammo, damage and reload) can be changed before hand for x2 (ammo, damage), which cost the full

reload time before, and once supercharged has a 1/100 chance of detonating the attack each second including all of player's ammo ('changing' weapon releases the shot) splash goes off on hitting first player but shot continues through players)

two damage flavours;-
'wet' speed step 1, 1 damage, cost 1 ammo, reload 1/6 seconds
'dry' speed step 2, 2 damage, cost 2 ammo, reload 1/3 seconds

speed step 1. instantaneous cylinder shot through world, stopped by players. (for recoil treat as speed of sound, 380m/s)
2. 'rocket' travelling at 20m/ second (plus player velocity), splash 0.25m, (detonate after 10 seconds if it hasen't hit something)
3. 'grenade' travelling at 5m/ second (plus player velocity), %25 effected by gravity, splash 2.5m, detonate on contact player or hitting object at > 45deg angle of incidence, or after 5 seconds)

can equip both 'loss' and 'gain' base weapons for the BFG equivalent, x4(damage, radius, splash area) but player takes 1/8th the damage each shot. the second equipped 'base' weapon is considered secondary (does not effect damage type) unequipping the primary 'base' weapon moves the 'secondary to 'primary'
nb. just need a 'base' equipped to have a attack, can combine a 'base' with 'blast' or 'supper charage', just don't get splash without 'range'.

if splash damage, the shell does half, and the splash the other half of the damage. (if you get hit by the shell, automatically get the splash)
Can't begin to fire unless you have the ammo (for supercharge this means you can't charge the weapon unless you have x2 cost, but can normal fire)
Can't fire again until you have finished reloading.

Basic 'wet' range attack is instantanious bullet travel (speed step 1), each shot is 1 cost ammo does 1 damage, 1/6 seconds to reload.
Basic 'dry' ranged attack is 20m second shell (speed step 2), each shot cost 2 ammo and does 2 damage, 1/3 a second to reload, the shell does 1 damage and the splash of 0.25m does another 1 damage.

quote:

so far we seem to have "futeristic" and "hunting".
are we in a war torn world? technology running rampent? aliens? genetic modifications? polution causing posioning and starvation? capitalism? religion? moon colinist rebelling?

Why not have a normal future? I'm for anything as long as it's not cyberpunk. That's been done to death.

Actually, I'm joking about a normal future. But the cyberpunk thing still stands.

This is a link of great maps and mods I have come across.. They're for Unreal Tournament 2004.

[url="http://www.streamline-studios.com/goodies"]AS-Confexia[/url] - Great assualt map by Streamline Studios. Very detailed, and requires a more higher end machine..
[url="http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=387013"]Ons-ToonCountry[/url] - Zelda/Wind Waker inspired onslaught map. Fantastic looking!
[url="http://www.unrealplayground.com/maps.php?mapid=6078"]Ons-Aliens[/url] - very nice Aliens inspired onslaught map. Includes the nuclear reactor station, and some samples from the movie.

[url="http://www.planetunreal.com/cbp/"]Community bonus maps[/url] - The Community Bonus Pack 1 and 2
[url="http://www.blackcatgames.com/swarm/"]Alien Swarm[/url] - above view, co-op teamplay orientated mod with Aliens-like theme
[url="http://redorchestramod.gameservers.net/"]Red Orchestra[/url] - WW2 mod

Ok, So Im kinda new to the making a Ut character thing.
I "am" in the videogame industry and i do make video games for a living so i would like to beleive that i have a fair ammount of knowladge as far as 3d packages go.

My main questions is... How can i take a .psk file IE a UT Character Raw Skeleton and import it into maya, so i can bind my character to that skeleton and not have to create my own animations.

So far i have found only one skeleton in maya's format and its for a male... and a friend got it from some unknown source. that is all and well, but i need one for a female or it will look very odd. So far the only way "theoreticaly" i can do it is to import the .PSK file into Lightwave... and then export that as an OBJ... and THEN import that into MAYA. The only thing is... does the OBJ format include skeletal bone structures or rigs for that matter?

I know there is ActorX for MAYA and MAX, but it can only EXPORT a psk from my knowladge...

If anyone can help... I have scoured the internet for information on this and i have been beaten into submission!

Please HELP!

quote:Originally posted by KeepItEvil

Ok, So Im kinda new to the making a Ut character thing.
I "am" in the videogame industry and i do make video games for a living so i would like to beleive that i have a fair ammount of knowladge as far as 3d packages go.

My main questions is... How can i take a .psk file IE a UT Character Raw Skeleton and import it into maya, so i can bind my character to that skeleton and not have to create my own animations.

So far i have found only one skeleton in maya's format and its for a male... and a friend got it from some unknown source. that is all and well, but i need one for a female or it will look very odd. So far the only way "theoreticaly" i can do it is to import the .PSK file into Lightwave... and then export that as an OBJ... and THEN import that into MAYA. The only thing is... does the OBJ format include skeletal bone structures or rigs for that matter?

I know there is ActorX for MAYA and MAX, but it can only EXPORT a psk from my knowladge...

If anyone can help... I have scoured the internet for information on this and i have been beaten into submission!

Please HELP!

I assume that the ActorX tool can do this. If not, it's likely that you can create the skeletal structure so that it can use the existing character animations in adition to those you make on your own.

to reuse the game animations all that matters is the bone names. obviously you'll want the default pose to be simular to avoid ugly deformation though. so either re-position the male one to look like the female ones (and add any extra bones such as ponytails) or create a new one with the same names. if you've got access to 3dsmax you can use the game bipeds for reference (links above)

in my experience keeping the bones positioned exactly as they are has been really important. some strange things have gone wrong when i made a character once and when i reskinned it by scalling, moving etc the character to fit the skeleton as apposed to the other way around things went smoothly upon importing.
If your using maya a nifty feature (which no doubt max has, i just dont use the program) is it set the preffered angle of the bones as you find them (assuming you get a hold of a "official" skeleton as apposed to making your own with simply the same bone names) and then rotate joints to fit your character (say you positioned the arms differently when modelling) then once youve bound the skeleton to the geometry, assume the preffered angle (both of these features can be found through right clicking on the bone or through menus).

Hey, I did the characters for Unreal Tournament 04- If your stuck I could export the biped rigs as boxes in .OBJ format for you- that should give you a good start I imagine. (We did the characters entirely in 3dsmax so there isnt a 'maya version' to my knoweldge.

Drop me an email and I will see if I have the rig you need.

You Rock Mr King!

I would love to see any of the UT2K rigs you may. Feel free to spam my email address with them if you find any.   

Is this thread dead cause maybe it could be resurrected for Unreal engine 3 links. I got a couple, does anyone else have any?

Roboblitz Unreal engine 3 wiki
Hourences Unreal engine 3 tutes
Some kismet stuff
   

I'm not even sure if it's possible or even easy to make the cars glide like they do in wipeout on UT23k, so wheels it'll have to be. Saves us less problems mucking with it. You can still do your trailing lights, flares though!..

If you're out of ideas, try modelling some concept cars.. there are tonnes and tonnes of those designs on the net. Having said that, I'm planning to design a futuristic vehicle of my own after the lexus is done..

i sure hope getting stuff into the engine will only be a few nodes and an exporter plug-in, i get enuf headaches :/

Edited by - lostsanity on 24/09/2002 09:43:30

I clicked on the link, but did not see any "vehicle shots." I think that I like vehicle shots, and want to know more about them.

The vehicle shots are under the "Screenshots Added 23/09/2002:" date..

cant wait cant wait :D

UT has allways been my preffered online shooter thingy (like CS, UT, BF1942 etc), so im interested in UTs advancements

you could say the whole vehicle thing is a bit of a halo grab but i still prefer UT for plain shooting so its all good to me

well, i'm currently bussy on a small wrestling game with a programmer in canada...

how small did you have in mind for your mod (have been (ahem) atempting to design poker machines of late) Personally im interested in procedual gameplay where gameplay variables are controled from withing the game world (simple example- you loose health, you can move as fast) either as secondary or primary effects (drink more 'beer', do more dammage, have less control)

think yoou may find aquiuring a design and artistic resources are not as difficult as getting a programmer to implement all the 101 silly dame design thing you may end up thinking you want...

best of luck.
DSC http://www.websamba.com/davidcoen

Well, personally, I want to do something with the Quake 3 engine.. it's so heavily supported, and everyone has Quake 3.. and it's a darn nice engine.. but we shouldn't do another FPS shooter. I mean, there are so many FPS mods out there, it's ridiculous.
What I had in mind is something like Quake Rally - it's a car racing game using the Quake 3 engine. Maybe we could do a sub-mod for that?
The reason why I think we could pull it off is that at the worst, we should be able to do at least one map with a few cars. We'll have something to play with at least. I think we can do much more of course, so the more we add, and build upon it, the better it'll get. And it's not dependant on one persons productivity. Anyone can add as much or as little as they want, in terms of cars, models of people driving those cars, maps etc.. I also think it's a great idea because you're not limited to a particular theme either..
So no programming required, and Quake Rally has all the SDKs on their site for mappers and modellers.. Maybe they'll be kind enough to compile a special version for us with our menus which we can distribute, whilst giving full programming credits to them, of course. We'll have to ask them how they feel about this and if they're willing to do it. Just looking at their forum, I see that they're pretty much winding down the production of quakerally (they have only 1 modeller who's moved on, and one coder), so I think we can boost some life into this mod.
Download quakerally at http://www.quakerally.com .. So, what does everyone think ?

Incidently, from the Quake Rally site,

"Quake Rally was a mod for the original Quake created by Impact Developments, namely Ryan "Ridah" Feltrin and Rowan "Sumaleth" Crawford. Both hailing from Australia, but never having met, the two of them set out to do what many people thought would be impossible, turn Quake into a fully fledged racing game."

I've known Rowan from way back, and he knows of this site. .. should get him involved somehow, although he's quite busy. maybe for general artistic feedback.. anyway, let me know what you all think.

I'd like to help out but I don't have much spare time so I can't promise anything. David is right, programmers will be the hardest to recruit but on the plus side you don't need too many for a mod.

As for engine, I'd have to recommend going with something newer, especially given your timeframe. This isn't going to be finished within the near future, and there's at least two engines on the way that will be easily mod-able. Unreal2 is just around the corner, and Doom3 isn't that far off if you want to wait. You can always start on art while you wait for the engine.

Actually, having just downloaded and played Quakerally, I didn't think it was much fun. .. they've done an incredible job, but it's still pretty much a hack. There are more suited engines for that stuff, like this one.. http://www.racer.nl/ ..
I think Bunny is right also.. I didn't realise how aged the Quake 3 engine is until I installed it again last night.
I still would like to keep everything small scaled, so an idea I had was something like a 3D Super Sprint (remember that game?).. small tracks, cars not so detailed, fun to play.. if there was a game like this that we could mod, then that would be ideal. anyway, just an idea..

HMMMMM, I've started(about 2 weeks ago) writing a very basic outline for a mod I wanted to make, it is a single player title, I was planning on using the UNREAL engine for it, (UT2003 or U2) It is planned to be a first person game. although I guess you guys probably want somthing more simple. Its still a long ways off though.
but a community effort mod is a great idea, I'll support it.
(By the way, I'm actually one of the rare people who doesnt have Quake3, I never liked it)

Lead paint: delicious but deadly!

I think the Doom 3 engine would be more better for a singleplayer game, although the Unreal 2003 engine looks pretty nice. But yeh, I think the amount of effort to put in a mod for those engines will be quite a lot.. Textures and skins being made for Unreal 2003 are 1024 x 1024 large.

http://www.fierceworks.com/ut/ for some unreal 2003 pics.

heyas
if were looking for something easy that requires virtually no programming (im thinking racing game here), we could use blenders engine.
of course, its fairly restrictive in terms of special effects etc. and doesnt run all to well. but then again, we are all content designers, so we all prob have very decent vid cards that could get good fps outta anything.

blenders built in physics stuff is why little programming would be needed for a racing game, just need tweaking basically. the only thing that might require some programming is the menu, but there used to be some tutes on that, seemed simple.

getting files into blender should be alright, as there are plug-ins for importing/exporting the .x format, very universal. we could either build our own racing levels, or all create bits to compile into a map.

one requirement was that it was multiplayer, thats 'in the works' for blender... so its anyones guess.

after reading the article on the front page, this was the first thought that came to my head... hmm... i should have slept on it ;(
hmm.. whres the spell check ;(

Do you have a link? I only know of a Blender 3d, which I think is just a modeller? http://www.pablosbrain.com/blender3d/ (seems they're reaching enough money to go open source)

Hey, wow.. I thought Blender3d was just a modelling program. ..
This guy made a small racing game in 8 hours (you can play blender games with a plugin for your browser) http://www.ualberta.ca/~nwy/blender/race_against_satan.htm .. of course, we can do something much better.. anyway, pretty cool!

well speaking from experience of doing games over the net we would want to do a mod with an engine which is well established and has lots of stuff out that that we can use. Like quake3. Indeed the graphics aren't that great nowadays but developing for ut2k3 or doom3 will pose numerous problems as no one will have any knowledge with the engine. There also won't be any resources to exploit for some time after its release. That and those engines are just too advanced for alot of computers.
Also stay away from the UT engine it's really quite horrible.
We could of course mod jk2 as it has a beefed up Q3 engine.
Also developing from scratch for an engine will prove more troublesome than you would think. When moding you at least have reference material which you just change to suit the needs of the project. (hang on can you get source for jk2??)
There was a much better freeware engine though with support for good specail FX but can't remember the name.
We could try using serious sam (which comes with everything including a modeler)
Ah check out www.radonlabs.de --> nebula device
thats if you want to dev for an engine from scratch, which means more coding for which ever poor guy we get. :)
Also why do we have to do a racing game? They are pretty much done to death and anything new that you could do won't get many peoples interests as racing game fans generally are after realism. Hence why GT3 was so popular.
There is nothing wrong with FPS genre as there is still alot you can do with it. It also allows for more imersive experiance (i know my spelling sucks)
I can't stand racing games for the most part (i like ones like extreme G and kind of wipeout) as racing games lacks the fundemental things which makes a game - interesting choices. The only fun thing in racing games is turning around and going the wrong way while trying to destroy as many other racers as possible.
However i do have an intersting idea to do something different with the racing genre. How many people have played star wars ep 1 pod racer?? Well there are a couple of bits where you go into a "zero g" tube like thingy and race through dodging large and small rocks.
We could use that kind of thing, have racing in 3D, this adds the element that racing games are missing, interesting choices. When you can go left or right or up or down around an obstical thats interesting. Also i think it should be REALLY fast lots of rocks and debris (if we set it in outer space in like a force feild tube or something we could have more to dodge than just rocks like space debris, fly through a space ship wreckage and stuff) and be able to have realistic damage like you can have you wing (or something like it) ripped off. Give each ship a laser which you can aim manually at the expense of being able to steer so you can knock out guys engines. Crashes should also be kewl like if you have your wing ripped off cause you hit a bit of a ship wreckage you would go spinning into an asteroid or something. I think it should be REALLY damn fast and you don't get sheilds, so you can die pretty easily but no lives so dieing just takes like 2 seconds of your time. You can shoot asteroids to blow them up and stuff to reveale secrets. Also there should be different size asteroids and with the REALLY big ones if you can fly close to it (with gravity) for long enough you can get a boost when you leave "orbit" kinbd of like slingshotting around the moon.
Anyway i got a bit carried away there to say the least :)
Maybe we should look into doing something different with the FPS genre.
It doesn't matter what we do even if it is a standard racing game i'll still help out. Just giving my opinion and showing you some other choices.
Hehe im so proud i got my name in the news :) hehehe lol
I think i'll shutup now.
Don't mind any spelling or bad grammer mistakes that i made, unless you really can't understand what im saying. :)

Bloody hell its a giant harmonica!

maybe having a look at torque's community project, realm wars, for ideas.
http://www.garagegames.com/mg/projects/realmwars/

urgh. torque. they charge money and it is a pain in the butt to work with (worse than getting stuff into UT)

hmmn, i understand why people don't think q3 has impresive graphics, but a. do you have lightmaps turned on, and b. it runs on my crap machine, don't think q3 would be that bad a choice. (is quick, and can get nice effects with shaders which can be seen when lightmaps are activated)

@Meatex_Salami, if choices are all you are after then take it into the design. (takes a leaf from 'dork tower' style games)example. you get 3 points to spend on a your cars stats, (say speed, attack, sheilds)(sheilds includes brakes)
aim is to finish the track several times (alternativly 'motorball' from 'battle angle alita' could be interesting, but will save that to another message)
perhaps take from mariocart64 the attack levels (lv1. missile ahead, 10 sec to get another, lv2. can hold up to 10 missiles, still fired ahead, get one more each 10 sec, and lv3. 10 homming missiles which take 10 sec to reapear)
if you get hit by more missiles in a 5 second period than you sheild level, your car is stoped, likewise if you hit a wall too fast (get thrown from can and have to run back to it or find another car?)
and the attack level just increases speed....

just some ideas...

DSC

yeah those sound like some interesting ideas
The car points or watever you want to call them could be quite interesting. Maybe a system like in pod racer where you get money (and maybe like bounty for taking out other racers) to spend on upgrades and stuff.
I have never really liked sheilds though as it makes it too easy. Most racers with sheilds you can pretty much hold down accelerate and thats it. Takes the sheilds out and you raise the stakes. The quake 3 engine is still being used today for a reason :) It's probably the most accessable (i know my spelling sucks) engine and it's graphics are more than enough.
Weapons could be nice but we have to decide (if we end up doing a racer) if we want to focus on weapon usage or racing skill.
Without sheild a simple laser is all you'll need and it'll be interesting trying to pick the right time to fire (if we use the idea of sacrifising ability to steer in order to fire)
Well we got quite a few good ideas from people coming in, lets get some more. Lets get all the options on the tables. Lets show our cards. (okay maybe one metaphor too much but hey)
There is nothing wrong with the torque engine (or tribes 2) for doing outdoors stuff. Although admittedly i haven't played around with it much except for botting all the T2 maps.
hmm but i still believe it will be alot easier to do a mod. I have been involved with a couple of attepmts to make a game for an engine over the net. It didn't get very far :(
so i think forst and foremost we most decide what we'll be developing for. So lets hear it.

Bloody hell its a giant harmonica!

I agree a racing game isn't as immersive as a FPS, but we've gotta look at what we're able to do and maybe try a small, and fun project to start off with. And yeh, a bog standard racing game is pretty boring, but it'll much more fun with some elements to make it somewhat more fun (jumps, speed ups, *small* modifications etc) taken from Super Sprint, and simliar to the ideas David mentioned.. also elements from Mario Kart, WipeOut etc.. Although I'm not sure if it's possible to do with Blender3D, but we'll have to find out first.

My rationale for a small racing game is it that it's relatively simple to do.. If someone wants to make up a car (perhaps with a 300 polygon limit.. not super detailed), then it's easy to model and texture in a few nights. A racing track is going to be a bit more work (and we have to be creative here too. I'm thinking fun maps with huge canyons like in Powerslide, and other maps with jumps and hills and tunnels... and someone's inevitably going to do a track on a computer desktop ).. and seems ideal to suit what we can do at this time, seeing as about 4 or so people are interested, with no programmer.

Uhm.. I think a racing game using the quake 3 engine would be just too much for a programmer (if we even get one). They'd basically have to rewrite the physics engine for it and do many, many kludges. It's pretty much the reason why the developers abandoned Quake Rally (for Quake 3). Since we don't have a programmer, blender3d might be the way to go. I've seen some pretty cool stuff with it, and it's got a few things going for it for us which is that it doesn't require a programmer, it's free, I'm sure it can import Max/Lightwave objects, and you can play the result on the web (which means anyone can play it). But one major con is that there aren't any lightmaps/no bsping so it won't look as good, and no multiplayer (although you can set it up to play against may computer players)..

If there's any other game types / ideas that you can come up with that is simple and fun, and doesn't require too much work (programmer and content wise), I'd love to hear it. I'd love to work on something with a FPS, but to do something special with it, we'll need a few programmers, more people involved, and a lot of time and effort.. with a racing game, we can have at least a few maps, and plenty of cars. Although if we're constantly and gradually adding content for it, then we could have a kick ass little game.

I dunno about blender3d (seeing as i was unable to check that link out cause my internet is soo frikken bad)
I have some programmers which i could talk to and see if they are interested.
Also if we are just going to do simple modification then why don't we do an FPS as it would be very easy to play around with the numbers in the existing code. Then we could slowly ad more to it.
i spent many months of my life looking at different engines when i was involved with an indie project and the best one we found was the Nebula Device at www.radonlabs.de
I know a coder whos has experience with that engine. Dunno if he has much spare time though.
If we do a racer we are doomed to have to do a fair bit of coding :(
Red faction you can mod without much coding experience. It also has the benefit of having geomod technology. We could do a very interesting FPS mod with that i reckon.
Is there a link to the blender3d engine home page??
anyway we are going to have to make some decisions soon.

Bloody hell its a giant harmonica!

Could always do a rehash of an old C64 or Amiga game like Stunt Car Racer. =-)

.sgurd od t'nod srenniw ,krowemoh ruoy od ,stnerap ruoy yebO.

I'm downloading this Nebula thingy right now , from the looks of the screen shots it seems rather good

Lead paint: delicious but deadly!

secure a programmer, and get them to chose the engine.

if thats not possible, we need to look for game design for non-programmers. blender is the most non-programmer friendly engine ive seen yet.

WTF. thought the base line concept for this thread was making some resources for q3 rally (some cars, a track) There is an engine, it would not require any programming, and you get to see it work. This could be a potentially effective development step...

could work on a concept, wipe outwas mentioned and that was a tight game, both graphically and gameplay (the speed penelties of not driving well (hitting halls brought you to a stop)) also mentioned was 300 polys cars, and that is way more abstract than you I can design good concepts for (irony is that given a complicated concept i can get it to work in 300 polys thanks to n64 work) and having very free form levels (sandhills? dune buggy sort of thing)

A lot of projects seem to fail due to lack of design or bitting off way more than they can chew, and most programmers you will find are quite dangerous (programmer by heart are optimist... and that is a good way of killing a project too (when is it going to be done- two weeks- 6 months latter, when is it going to be done- two weeks...)

nb. sheilds not being gameplay effective. well, make them useful, they don't allow the user to bounce off walls and maintain velocity (as speed is something im thinking of as quite imporrtaint) but they do allow you to asorb wepon dammage and brake faster...

hmmn, liking the sandhills idea...

Quake Rally was merely a suggestion, which I recanted when I actually downloaded and played it. Download it and have a look. (David, you said you wanted to work on a Quake 3 engine because it'll run ok on your low spec machine ? well, the maps in Quake Rally are large out door maps, so they won't run too well)..It seemed like a good idea - taking something exisitng, and using that as a base so that we wouldn't require a programmer. Anyway, the developers have abandoned it, and for good reason to. You can see them contributing to www.racer.nl (which looks awesome, but is a bit boring to play).

The maps you guys have mentioned - free form sandhills, incredible tracks like those in stunt car racer.. there's no restriction to what maps you want to make, if we want to make a car racing game..

Anyway, to maybe get the ball rolling, can we see a show of hands on who wants to do what kind of game? Hands up if you want a FPS, or a Blender racing game? Or any other?

If we vote on a FPS, please persuade someone to program it for us.
If we vote on a racer, I'll post something at http://www.elysiun.com/viewforum.php?f=6 . There are many talented Blender programmers there who, I'm sure, would love to make a game and let us work on the content.. or one of us can figure out the blender..

I think keeping it simple is best, A racing game would be good but have things more interesting than cars, say tanks, hover bikes, a guy in a wheelchair, someone on roller blades with a fan strapped to their back, a dolphin with legs(these are just a few ideas)

So my vote is on a racing game.

As much as I love FPS games, it would be too complicated.

Lead paint: delicious but deadly!

i vote for the racing game

i reckon blender could do some pretty decent stuff if we make it so u cant see very far ahead of you (ala wipeout) without killing the fps.

you guys should really check out Red Faction
man i could probably code a mod for that.
I really don't care im interested in doing either but seeing as my favourite games are FPS i'll go with that.
just in case i have sent a call out to some coders i know to see if they are interested.

Bloody hell its a giant harmonica!

Actually redfaction isnt that bad an idea, It wouldnt be that hard to make a racing type game since it already has vehicles.

Lead paint: delicious but deadly!

If it's easy to make Red Faction into a racing mod where we can have those ideas mentioned earlier, then it definately sounds interesting (Programmer required though, remember!).. although, I hope it does some distance culling, and doesn't require too much kludging..
Although, I think one thing that Blender really has going for it is that it's free - so everyone can edit with it and play the game too.. Definately good for a small project like ours to get a maximum audience, and won't hinder participation from those of us who don't actually own Red Faction..

err um red faction isnt mod friendly at all
it has as few scripts
not even scripts that you can change
and doesnt support dynaic downloading of anything
it would be a bad idea

but id like to be part of any mod that comes out of Oz
id like to be a modeler

i cant really come here that often but please email me if anything comes up

mitchell@hot.net.au

:) regards

mmm... GeoMod racing game... the potential is huge, but I've also heard the engine is a bitch. Pity, I love the idea.

Well i have looked into it and it seems very easy to mode
majority of code thats used in the game like entities, weapons etc. All that is required is to edit tbl files
Although you could be right as i haven't screwed with it that much.
However i do think a racing game with it would be quite easy with only some lines of coding :) Seeing as it already has lots of vehicles all we would need to do is change the speed variable.
Also i have no probs with RF engine, it works great on my machine even with lots of craters in the geometry and the graphics are fine (not fantastic).
And it doesn't matter if you don't have Red Faction, thats why burners were made :) hehe lol.

Bloody hell its a giant harmonica!

:) no
rf uses table files
there just tables
there is no code u can change
there is no way to make it a race with winners cos u cant code anything

and there is no cars alowed in multi
and no u cant code them in cos u dont have access to any code.