General Chat

[img]http://www.sumea.com.au/simages2/69_theman.jpg[/img]

You're the coolest of the cool, and every pose you reeks of pure awesome. Your coolness is uncomparable, and so are you.
You have fat friends who love you and follow you, and others who think you're the greatest thing since creamed cheese. Which you are.

...cant argue with that.

[8D]

same as snowflake, go the master artist ness!

Heh I got Trogdor as well... which would be cool, but I'm a programmer not an artist!!!!! :) hmmm maybe I should shift my paradigm...

"You're the man. You never answer to anyone or anything, and you definitely won't let anyone trample all over you. If anything, you trample all over them. If only you knew how to play Badminton"

Hows badminton relevant.

"You're a crook, a childish and sabotaging plagiarist of a crook. Don't touch my quiz! I bet you're gonna steal it and pass it off as your own! EGAD!"

[img]http://images.quizilla.com/K/Kingy/1078593400_lakidsbook.jpg<[/img]

Why did I get the crappy one? [:p]

PS: On another note i made up this quiz which tells you which StrongBad E-mail you are [:p]...

[img]http://live.quizilla.com/user_images/K/Kingy/1078593400_lakidsbook.jpg[…]

"You're a crook, a childish and sabotaging plagiarist of a crook. Don't touch my quiz! I bet you're gonna steal it and pass it off as your own! EGAD!"

eerrrrrrrr.............ok......... [:o)]

Welcome to my world Makk [;)].

Its ok, atleast we are good at what we do. We are professional plagiarists, atleast according to the test/quiz thing [:)] (Basically a person who passes anothers work up as his for those that dont know what it means or if their dictionary is to far away).

"You're so odd, even you are sometimes surprised by it. Your oddness exceeds all limits, and you're pretty crazy too. Your inspired randomness makes you a curse and a blessing at the same time."

[img]http://images.quizilla.com/K/Kingy/1078592694_azyCartoon.jpg[/img]

Well most Hobo's are crazy or have funky ideas [;)].

Yep, quite a corny joke folks... if you got it that is.

i see none of you can compare to my coolness yet.......[:p] lol

man...reading the details of the Nintendo DS, I really think Nintendo has done it again in the handheld market...that thing is a nice piece of work...[:D]

The DS beats the hell out of N-Gage's sidetalking style!

[url]www.sidetalkin.com[/url]

Not that Nokia are even in the same league here...

Wow that is absolutely nuts. Gives me chills down my spine. Makes me wonder what the new Gamecube will be like since they're hyping up how revolutionary it will be. I'm really glad Nintendo is still in this industry otherwise there'd be no innovation at all.

Zelda looks freakin amazing. Such a surprise. I can't believe they're doing it. I didn't think they'd do it till their new console came out... Right now it's really 'make or break' time for Nintendo, if they can pull this off they really could get back into it. (or maybe that's my biased fanboy thoughts talking there lol)

Good to see Nintendo doing new things rather than just throwing more power to handhelds..

Biased fanboys UNITE!

Good point there jason. Without Nintendo, the rest of the industry wouldn't even know where to find innovation in the dictionary.

When they said the DS would have enormous potential and all these never-before seen features, I thought, 'oh yeh, that sounds interesting'. But this thing looks fricken awesome. Massive potential in so many areas...I can't wait to see what games come out for this thing...

Long live the might N!!!
Zelda looks kick ass!

Wait, so it's cross compatible with GBA games?

well according to the nintendo website:

"Nintendo DS makes a vast library of Game Boy? Advance games readily available"

wowzers looks neat. I wonder if that mario game on DS is something the size of the 64 version (as in no. of levels and such).

zelda looks pretty cool, though i had to point out this screen
http://media.nintendo.com/mediaFiles/c10dadb1-4e8b-424f-99c0-9bfb350829…

*COUGH*LOTR*COUGH* :P still, links the man ;P

Sounds bad ass. I like the touch screen and wireless LAN capabilities.

I want Zelda.................NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

...sorry, couldnt help myself..

;)

Looks like it has potential. Thought the music sounded pretty good in that opening screen - kind of reminds me of some of Matt Uelmen's stuff (Diablo 2 music) and the work of the ubiquitous Jeremy Soule...

Supposedly their business model revolves around people buying the exapnsion packs that they plan to release about 2-3months apart. However it's still possible to play the game without expansion packs, you just don't get access to the new content etc.
If you figure that most people will buy the expansions, then the income from the expansions probably comes close to the income generated from subscriptions.
Might give it a whirl if i get the chance (pity it's only on during weekdays, although with the time difference we might get some time saturday morning :) )
CYer, Blitz

an MMORPG without fees sounds good to me, ive allways been fascinated by the genre but with the price of it all ive never purchased one. I just cant justify paying like that

my first impressoins of guiud wars about 12 months ago at hte last e3 was pretty bland, the animation was blocky and chunky and the graphics looked really dated - the concept could be fun tho, but that was my oppinion based on footage - which was i hope a work in progress.

i might have to check it out again and give it another go [:D]

Okay. They have started the server a day early. You can get on right now and have a play. It seems pretty good. The gameplay feels nothing like i thought it would. Then again, I never have played a MMORPG that much (for reasons stated by MoonUnit). You have to download the levels/missions as you do them. They are about 1-2mb each. i dont mind as I'm on dsl, but a few dial up members may not like it. It seems that once you download the area once, it saves it so you only have to get the updated data (who is there, so on). It runs really smooth. A few areas had bad pings but nothing that effects the game that much. One guy was complaining a fair bit about it. My friend has been playing it a fair bit and said it runs perfectly on his (56k). He just has to wait a fair bit for every new area... Graphics are very simple yet effective. The characters look really nice, but I do hope there is more variation in the full game (it is an alpha after all). The simple graphics also means that it runs really well. You can tell what everything is really easy, so that's all i really care about :) I didn't even realise that I had started playing with other people. You start off doing a single player game so you can get used to it. Once that is done you just run through a portal into the MP area. I still don't actually know how to really goin a group or start a mission. It just seems to do it automatically. It is fun and the people on there so far are actualyl really cool. No real abuse or cracks about my supposed sexuality :) Well, I have only playd it briefly, so I'm going to go back and have a bit more fun. Time to try a Necro >:D If I see you in there i'll say hi :)

I'm playing another MMO for free... World Of Warcraft beta... Talk about CRACK!!!! The game is so good! Definintely the best i've played and it's still in beta!!!! Of course, it's bad news as that means I've turned into a recluse again, only showing my face for work... Yeah I'll probably force myself to stop playing, that's how good it is!

I'm in! Love a good mmorpg. [:)]

Still downloading though..... seems to be taking forever on my dialup - hope it runs okay over a slow connection. I'm looking forward to checking this out.

Maybe I'll see some other sumean's online over the next couple of days?
My character's name will instantly identify me [;)] - lets get a sumea group together for some rpging goodness!
Hope to see some of you in there. [:)]

DaMunkee - I'm hanging out for WOW. Have you played much Everquest? How's it compair to that? I've heard it's going to be much easier to get into without having to spend large chuncks of your life to make progress. [:P] I'm thinking WOW might even be better then EQ2. But then there is also Middle Earth online in development, which looks like a treat for fans of true role playing [:)] I'm keen to try out City of Hero's also, for something different.

/me turns green with envy (or is that green with empathy for the orcs? ;)

I'm heartened to hear that you think it's a good game, but also somewhat worried to hear that it's that good :)

Hehe yeah it's good, we have 2 guys here who played EQ for years and years. They're in the beta and won't be going back to EQ. I have never played EQ but have played Ascheron's Call 1 and 2 and this game is reminicent of those games, only better!

You can totally make progress just playing a couple hours a week (good for those of us who have an outside life...or at least trying to :) ) You can play in a party if you like, or you can progress just as fast by yourself. The cities are gourgeous (all though way to big in my opinion) and the landscape is fantastic.

Essentailly Blizzard took everything that was good with the other MMOs and then took everythign that was bad and fixed it, mixed that all together to get the *Perfect* MMO experience.

Although it's currently beta, the game is highly polished. There are frequent crashes (like once every 4 hours) but I'm confident those will get fixed. (After all, there is still 5 months left in the beta!) But unlike every other MMO, it takes less then 30 seconds to get back into the game after it crashes. FFXI takes what, 2to3 minutes?. Anyway It is definitely "Golden" and should be cherrished by all... well that is until the NINTENDO DS comes out :) hehe, I'm so in love with that thing and I'm serious... any developer that's working on the DS that is looking for an experienced game programmer, drop me a line :)

Is pretty nifty so far. I'll try and put a few hours into it, see if it continues to keep my interest. Brain De La Vega is my name. Yell a hello if ya around @:-)

Wow, I?m really getting into this! Only bad thing is load time on dial-up. A couple of times when I started new missions with a team, it took ages to load up, and when it finally did loaded the new level, the rest of my party was dead, and had exited the level. [:(]

It?s nice to play in an environment that forces team work. I?ve only completed four multiplayer missions so far, but the levels seem very well designed, and usually require teamwork and some strategy to get through successfully. I could see how the full version would become very addictive, as there could be no end to cool stuff to collect, and new skills to attain.

This is the first time I think I?ve ever been glad that I don?t have a full-time job! No sleep for me for three days!!! (Only two days left now. I?m gonna have withdrawal symptoms when it?s over).

I just thought I?d let people know that the Guild Wars world preview event is on this weekend (tonight through to Sunday night). I?ve only played the first single player level/tutorial so far, but already I can see some pretty cool improvements since E3. It?s looking polished.

If you?ve got time for games this weekend, and can handle the download, I?d strongly recommend checking it out. Awesome game! [:D]
[url]http://www.guildwars.com/default.html[/url]

I've been playing it a bit today, and I must say that I'm pretty disappointed with the gameplay I've seen so far.

Very pretty, but this induced my first major disappointment soon after - the player is not free to wander wherever they choose, there are quite restrictive bounds to every zone. The first thing I did in the game was try to venture outside of the mission area and was unable to. I'm one of those players who likes to explore, so this was a major turnoff right from the start.

My character was unable to jump off a ledge that had a 1m drop down to the path below, but I guess the fragile bones that she had prevented this action. I'm developing this theory that because there's no food in a lot of computer games, this leads to severe anorexia in characters - what do you think? :)

It seems to me that they have chosen to go for pretty graphics, with all the hassles this entails (like having to load areas separately, and not being able to deal with people wandering off the beaten track). But I do agree the graphics look polished.

Next gripe - your character can learn 150 skills, but can choose a maximum of 8 skills to take into each "mission". The cynical side of me wonders if 8 * (6 party members + 4 monster types of the zone) = all the shaders that they could load at any one time ;)

Then we have stuff like the elementalist spell that you cast on a specific creature, and when that creature dies all other creatures nearby of the same type get damaged. Now perhaps it is possible to dress this up with enough fancy words and provide a reason for it working like this, but it just leaves me questioning the internal consistency of the game world. Area of effect spells are logical within most game worlds, but this just leaves me going "why?" rather than getting on with my adventures.

Mind you, I am suffering severe withdrawl symptoms from the World of Warcraft today (closed beta just finished in preparation for a second stress test), so take what I say on this topic with an oceanful of salt :D However, cut back on the sodium completely when I say WoW rocks :) WoW should have a health warning similar to those on cigarette packets, I think. "This game will kill your life". I can write up some thoughts on WoW if anyone is interested :)

CombatWombat, I?d be very interested to hear your thoughts on WoW. I can?t believe how much the testers are all raving about it; if it?s even half as good as everyone is saying it will be a treat!

As for GuildWars, I think it needs to be taken for what it is. It?s certainly no EverQuest style of game with massive free roaming levels, but what it does brilliantly is give a small group of players a well-designed level with strict boundaries that force the group to play as a team. Countless times today the mission I was playing failed due to the lack of teamwork from some team members. These people are always the ones bagging the game, but they constantly run off on their own and don?t participate in what tactics the team has decided to try. I get the feeling that these people would be better off playing unreal tournament or some such thing. [:P] However, when you manage to get a decent team together, the game is extremely rewarding. It?s very satisfying when faced with a challenge and the team works together to find a solution. Hopefully this aspect will really come out in the final game (and hopefully the solo wannabes will get sick of the game and stop playing!).

With the eight spell/ability limit, I think it works well. It?s supposed to mimic card games like Magic, where you pick a certain deck as a strategy for particular missions. While you may have dozens of spells/abilities learnt, you must carefully choose which ones to equip for certain missions.

I do have a few issues with the game, but I think they are little things that will change with the finished version. This is of course the very first weekend of Beta testing, so it?s still got a long way to go until the finished product. But keeping in mind that the game isn?t aiming for a massive EverQuest style of play, but rather something that forces players to team up to overcome specifically designed problems, I think they?ve done a great job, and the finished title should be one of those games that you could keep coming back to for quick but well designed adventures.

Though despite my appreciation for Guild Wars, I?m pretty sure it?s not in the same league as mmorpg?s on the way like WoW and EQ2.

- Looking forward to hearing some reports of the WoW gameplay. [:)] The only gameplay of WoW I?ve seen is from the machinima:
[url]http://www.archive.org/movies/movieslisting-browse.php?collection=machi…] [:D]

i think to be fair to it, the game is not intended to involve exploration like other mmorpgs. mainly because it isn't an mmorpg, it was made so that people could hop on and play any mission without investing huge amounts of time to roam the countryside. don't forget it doesn't have a monthly fee as well, which should give some allowances in depth of gameplay. finally i think that the small number of spells is a plus as it allows for more thought to be put into tactics and it evens out the game for veterans and new plyers in the group. that said you are right that they can also be seen as flaws, i was just putting a more positive spin on it

Played it all weekend and I liked the changes they made since the alpha (toned down the rangers which was a good move :) ). Combat Wombat. Have a read at their FAQ, they arent aiming for a MMORPG, http://www.guildwars.com/faq/default.html "Is Guild Wars an MMORPG (Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game)? Guild Wars has some similarities to existing MMORPGs, but it also has some key differences. Like existing MMOs, Guild Wars is played entirely online in a secure hosted environment. Thousands of players inhabit the same virtual world. Players can meet new friends in gathering places like towns and outposts where they form parties and go questing with them. Unlike many MMOs, when players form a party and embark upon a quest in Guild Wars, they get their own private copy of the area where the quest takes place. This design eliminates some of the frustrating gameplay elements commonly associated with MMOs, such as spawn camping, kill stealing, and lines to complete a quest. Guild Wars takes place in a large virtual world made up of many different zones, and players can walk from one end of the world to the other. But Guild Wars eliminates much of the tedium of traveling through the world. Players can instantly return to any safe area (town or outpost) that they've previously visited just by clicking on it in the world overview map. Rather than labeling Guild Wars an MMORPG, we prefer to call it a CORPG (Competitive Online Role-Playing Game). Guild Wars was designed from the ground up to create the best possible competitive role-playing experience. Success in Guild Wars is always the result of player skill, not time spent playing or the size of one's guild. As characters progress, they acquire a diverse set of skills and items, enabling them to use new strategies in combat. Players can do battle in open arenas or compete in guild-on-guild warfare or the international tournament. But engaging in combat is always the player's choice; there is no player-killing in cooperative areas of the world. Finally, unlike existing MMOs, all characters in Guild Wars inhabit the same virtual world -- they are not divided onto different servers or shards -- so players can always team up with or compete against any other player in the world." You can actually wonder around the game world, just without other humans. It would be nice if you could do it with humans as the solo areas are fricken huge. On the later levels there were enough people getting completely lost, so making the areas larger may not be the best thing to do. I agree about the spell limit. I would have liked a few more, but then where do you draw the limit? :) I'd recommend actually putting your ideas towards them, they do actually seem to listen. They started changing some of the gameplay rules on the last day (8 vs 8 pvp areas and experience point gains from pvp).

You spelt Magazine incorrectly :)

That would be a good idea, but it would probably be better to get some of the members here to write up a few tutorials first. Make a section on Sumea firstly, and then try approaching a show or magazine producer/publisher. That way, the authors would have the ability to make sure that the tutorials are well written and work well.

It would definitely be a good idea though.

One of the producers of Control Freaks registered on this site.. I can dig up their email if anyone wants to pursue something like this on behalf of Sumea.
Personally speaking, I'm not much of an article writer/editor, or even a decent speaker/presenter, and due to the amount of work already required to keep the site up to date, I'm really limited to doing what I'm currently doing on here.. It would be great if someone who has the experience and the ability to take it much further (I'm sure it would benefit themselves as a result too) does so. I'm all for it.

Yes they will work. There is not difference between a US computer and Australian computer except the power supply. NSTC and PAL have to do the television ratios and do not apply to computers.

quote:Originally posted by Rahnem

Yes they will work. There is not difference between a US computer and Australian computer except the power supply. NSTC and PAL have to do the television ratios and do not apply to computers.

Excellent. That could save me a decent amount of cash. [;)]

No doubt, with the US dollar crash of the past few months (thank you Mr Bush) My funds for relocating to Australia have tanked! But what that does mean is instead of paying $100 AUD for your games, you can buy them from the US at at most $50 USD ($75AUD) Of course, you're only allowed to bring in $400 AUD at a time or you'll be charged import duties. And, shipping is not exactly cheap from the US. But hey, it could be worht a shot especially if you EBay or get used games.

Beautiful, looks like i might be ordering myself UT2004 DVD Special Edition in a few days for the low price of $50 AUD ($35 US). However add $10-$15 or so for shipping [;)] but it still saves me $30.

Quite a few (mostly only online) aussie game shops are starting to sell games a bit cheaper than normal. ie. a game that retails for US$50 is being sold for about AU$80 at some places, which is probably as cheap as you are going to get it from the US after shipping. Of course then there are crazy US stores that sell games for like 2 cents above the price they buy it at haha.
CYer, Blitz

[img]http://www.sumea.com.au/simages2/69_theman.jpg[/img]

damn! we've been found.

just kidding. welcome and all that....

i was shown the way, with help from my friendly universe

Welcome :)

What exactly is happy juice and where can i get some :)

Hey Tykeil, nice to see you here.. enjoy [:D]

G'day TyKeiL! Welcome to the wonderful world of Sumea! [:D]
So what are you into? Are you an artist or programmer?

mmmm, Happy Juice...
... I needs some of that

Shaking fist man never gets old!!! :D

Anyway welcome :)

@ palantir: started out as a 3d artist, moved to programming :O) so both

Just some freindly advice LEAVE! :)

Welcome. By the way, what is the food at Fasta Pasta like? I don't see myself ever being in Adelaide, but just in case....

@ Aven: suprisingly good, but it depends on which resteraunt you visit,

since the franchise'ing there are like 5 fasta pasta's around adelaide and a few in other cities like brisbane and perth, other places, and theve just gone international with a resteraunt in Kuala Lumpur

but none of them( from customers point of view) come close to the quality of the original pirie street resteraunt( which is the one i work at :O)

i eat the food almost everyday after work- but even with staff discount im spending too much money inthe place, and thats like $5 a meal

@ bulet21: if you have ever seen labyrinth, i liken your kind to the rock faces after they leave the ubliet(<-spelling) but i wouldnt want you to stop working at it, [:D]

quote:if you have ever seen labyrinth, i liken your kind to the rock faces after they leave the ubliet(<-spelling) but i wouldnt want you to stop working at it

Keh?

Hi and Welcome

evenin govna *tips hat* welcome to this ere fine establishment

ti's a fine place you got here for y'r selves would't ye be wanting a sip of me finest happy jiuce.

mmmmm Happy juice....
Who's shout?

Oh, and Bullet, (and I'm hesitant to ask, but) what's with the "friendly" advice to LEAVE? (Just curious is all, I don't want to cause trouble[:)])

lol - i think you should read back to some of bullets other 'friendly' emails palantir. you should find the answer there [:)]

I'll kill you all

EDIT: except for Hazard, he nurtures my craving for pain and bloodshed

here bullet21, have a crusty doll, ive even switched it to evil for you :O).

Ok TyKeiL you've been crossed of as well

quote:Originally posted by TyKeiL
but none of them( from customers point of view) come close to the quality of the original pirie street resteraunt( which is the one i work at :O)

/me ducks downstairs and runs down the street to bang on your windows =]

lol hmm down stairs and down the street, :O) i know where you work!!! let me think, aon building? level 8?

Congrats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Is the job going to leaveyou time to work on your Indi project still?

good stuff morphine :) earn some money , save up some cash , and dump it into an idy project :)

Congrats on ze job!

quote:earn some money , save up some cash , and dump it into an idy project

Hell yeah, that's my plan once i bust outta uni with a degree :)

yay! we have sucess *starts blowing up party baloons*

Good on ya mate, congrats!

Hey maitrek - keep us posted on your exploits into the indy unknown, would be keen on your experiences, what will your position be btw ? ie... designer / artist / code / sound ? or all of the above ?!?!

Well Done. I hope you have fun there, and piss off many a customer :D

Thanks for all the congrats. [8D]
I'll be still working on projects as well as my own work even though the hours I'll be working at my job will be varied (the position is considered 24/7 shift-work basis) so I will definitely not be giving that up. This is of course, only a survival job and I cannot see myself doing this for the long-time. I still want to end up in the games industry, that's where my passion to work lies. [:D]

interesting news, so XMP was a multiplayer add on for Unreal2... so does this mean simply more maps for Ut2k4 or what?

no it means an entirely new game type, where you need to steal the other teams artifacts, your base has power generators that need to be controlled in order to use turrets and vehicles as well as power up your artifact node. Plus its class based as well. I hope they port over all the weapons and vehicles, shit I hope they port everything over exactly how it is, XMP is damn good fun.

I'm very happy with how Epic have been getting rid of CD checks eventually with patches at some point after initial sales. It shows they are very community minded (while still keeping business sensibilities of having checks in the first couple months of release).
UT2003 removed the check with one of the patches. Dunno about unreal2 or the original unreals.
Ahh well, *looks at sig* :)
CYer, Blitz

I hope they fix unreal ed a bit. For me, it crashes ever third time I open it, and when it is open, I can't do much at all since I can't select any brushes!!

Oh, and there's the second official community bonus map pack coming out real soon as well. Nice [:)]

Heh, UnrealEd noob alert [;)]

I'm too lazy to sign up for a free IGDA account :P
So no whitepaper for me.
CYer, Blitz

interesting,

I'll email the paper to anyone who wants a read (it's 500k). I have to say, I'm a statistics junky and this paper is on a subject I feel passionatly about and it's full of stats. :)

Chris

Very interesting reading. Some pretty depressing statistics there really. In truth it kind of makes we wonder why I?m trying so hard to get into the industry. I love making games, but with the industry the way it is, I?d almost be better off keeping game development as a hobby, and seek more practical employment. Maybe. (Man it was painful to type that! [:P] )

I wonder if half the reason for such poor working conditions and quality of life is that game developers are willing to abide by such conditions. With so many people desperate to get into the industry, and willing to work long hard hours for low pay, why should the industry change? Why would an employer look after its staff when there are so many people willing to work slave labour just to be in the industry?

Seems to me like maybe things need to change.

either that or go indy - IMO this is one of the main reasons why so many people are trying to start something up as a hobby first, then maybe get a few smaller shareware games out and slowly start earning a living - rather than brave the frontline fresh outta school / uni.

Don't let the paper scare you off Palantir, there are always the gems amoungst the sand when it comes to developers. I think the biggest thing is if you're aware of it, then you can do something to stop it.

There is no reason to work the ways that are "standard" in the industry. Papers like this will hopefully raise awareness and hopefully the gung ho "newbies" in the industry will start to learn not to put up with it. This is one reason why I think Game Development courses are a good Idea. New members of the industry can be made aware of various issue like this and can be the front line when it comes to changing it.

Our studio kind of had a revolution a few months back. (at least engineering side, the artists haven't wised up, yet). We had an engineer who has a fairly new family and actually had given his 2 week notice to quit due to teh long hours. In a sign of intelligence, management decided that to lose him, would be a serious blow to the team so now we never have pressure to stay long. Due to the actions of one man, there was a shift in our company's culture. So see, the world doesn't have to follow these rules. You just have to be willing to take a chance :)

I personally wouldn't suggest that going indy is going to result in more sensible hours or better pay, most likely you will be working longer hours for little or no pay, if you want to keep your business afloat.

quote:With so many people desperate to get into the industry, and willing to work long hard hours for low pay, why should the industry change?

Thats pretty much what the bigtops paying the bills think, however...

quote:Why would an employer look after its staff when there are so many people willing to work slave labour just to be in the industry?

As i think is suggested in the paper, you may be able to get plenty of fresh faces willing to work to death, but if you don't keep experience in the company you will be churning out crap and the business is going to suffer. Another way of thinking about it is a bit of a vicious cycle...
1 Experienced employees leave because they are sick of overtime
2 New fresh faces are employed to take up the slack
3 Newbies aren't as competent, so project/s start to fall further behind schedule
4 Employees leave because they are sick of being worked even harder now
5 Goto 1
CYer, Blitz

"I personally wouldn't suggest that going indy is going to result in more sensible hours or better pay, most likely you will be working longer hours for little or no pay, if you want to keep your business afloat."

True enough but i was more thinking along the lines of: I think many people go down the indy path to quench the game-creation desires as a sideline hobby, instead of persueing the straight down the line approach, ie build simple things in your own good time - but thats another story and opens up many a can of worms.

Wow, what a great story DaMunkee. It must have felt wonderful :)

quote:that one smile was payment enough

I'm sure the salary was a nice bonus though :)
CYer, Blitz

if your looking for a quick buck i dont think youd be headed down our road :P
nice story, dont mind impulsive posting like that, if you want to share something by all means :D

quote:Originally posted by Blitz
[br
I'm sure the salary was a nice bonus though :)
CYer, Blitz

I took a 10% pay cut to work at Westwood and that didn't even factor in the cost of living adjustment (Tucson is a hell of a lot cheaper to live in then LA), also, if you factor the salary/hours worked, you'd find that the salary borders on slave labor. The only people who actually make good money happen to be the testers. At first glace, their pay seems crap but then you factor, everything > 60 hours a week is payed 2x, everything worked on the 7th day in a row is payed 3x. At least at EA/WEstwood, if you could convince them to pay you hourly, it would turn out to be greatly in your favor even at half your pay rate.

So, no blitz, the salary isn't a factor. If it is to you, then you're heading for the wrong biz.

On the other hand, EA worked us so much, that for 6 months, the only time I spent money was on rent (which was a waste since I was never home) and bills for the place. It's amazing how much money you save when you don't have time to spend it.

Thats a good story there Munkee - i cant wait to be in that position

The money doesnt mean crap to me - ive worked longer and harder hours 90 - 100 + hour weeks on a regular basis for near 5 years, for little rewards before, i didnt like it - but mainly because i didnt enjoy what i was doing, and the only gratification was the ocasional " thanks for finishing that " which had a 95% probability of being follwed up with a " now can you get this done asap ".

Great little story, a bit of inspiration for most ppl i would say, what area of the game inds. do you work in (programming, graphics etc ?)

Colm

I hope to have that same experience one day! thanx [:D]

quote:Originally posted by doyle

Great little story, a bit of inspiration for most ppl i would say, what area of the game inds. do you work in (programming, graphics etc ?)

Colm

Programmer, heh it even says so in my profile [:D]

yeh, great story...I hope I share that experience one day...[:D]

Great story Damunkee. Getting that kind of feedback from your work is truly priceless. It's similar to the story I read a while back on a writer's commentary on games and their audience.. [url="http://www.sumea.com.au/snews.asp?news=446&related=Krome%20Studios"]The part where he writes about the little girl enthusiasticly enjoying Ty, The Tasmanian Tiger[/url] must've been a great reward for the folks at Krome to read, who I'm sure worked hard on that title as well. I mean, you seriously can't beat that! Creating an entertaining experience for everyone is what it's all about, and for someone that young, it'll leave a life long impression, I reckon. Heck, I absolutely loved The Way of The Exploding Fist around 20 years ago, and I ended up searching everywhere on the net to find a way to contact it's creator [:)]

Yep, great feeling when somebody appreciates ones hard work although I don't believe anything truely compensates for the sacrifices ones family has to make during crunchtime.

I don't want be one to dwell on the negative side of things, especially after such an inspiring story! But in the game industry, what sort of hours are you puting in during crunchtime?

quote:Originally posted by denz

I don't want be one to dwell on the negative side of things, especially after such an inspiring story! But in the game industry, what sort of hours are you puting in during crunchtime?

Hehe, do a search for Damunkee and you'll find all kinds of articles about the long hours :) Actually the white paper post about the Quality of life has a good review of what it's really like in games [url]http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1760[/url]

For me personally, I've worked > 100 hours a week But with the company i'm currently at, we're working 50/week during crunch. So it varies greatly but I have to say my current company is the exception, not the rule.

Chris

From what I have heard public companies pay far less than private companies and the work is more stressful. I also heard that EA contracts most of their development staff and keep very few people on full time.

Privately owned companies don't have to answer to shareholders so they are free to share their profits with the employees.

Thanks for the post DaMunkee. In such morbid times for Indie/Mod Developers in Oz at the moment, there is light at the end of the tunnel. I have always strived to make the client happy, not look at how much I'll be payed at payday, its the end user, the gamer who will be the ultimate critic. They will love it, or hate it, and when you see a beaming smile from just one gamer playing the game you have spent months/years making, I think its all worth it in the end. [:D]

hey thanx for your insight and the link DaMunkee. I'm sure all the long hours are worth being in game dev [;)]

quote:Originally posted by Rahnem

From what I have heard public companies pay far less than private companies and the work is more stressful. I also heard that EA contracts most of their development staff and keep very few people on full time.

Privately owned companies don't have to answer to shareholders so they are free to share their profits with the employees.

Actually Rahnem, my experience has shown the complete opposite.

Public companies typically have more money to pay their clients because they build capital through stock sales. Additionally, public companies will tend to try to keep people around as they need to impress stock holders with good products (to keep getting money)so they'll spend a little more in that respect.

Private companies typically have a fixed source of income (either a publisher/someone's savings) so they're more likely to not "pay" you if their income has dried up.

Oh and I can tell you for a fact, EA is not like you said. Out of 50 developers, we had zero contractors. Now IBM on the other hand :P

Private companies typically don't have enough income when a game ships to share any profit with their employees.

Of course, there's exceptions to every rule, but that is just my observations.

The sims expansions, from what I have heard, is done mainly by contract workers. Then again, it was the same for UT2004.

I should have said private companies that have made their mark like Epic, id, Valve pay their employees more. Some private startup company is obviously not going to have a lot of cash flow.

The head honchos have already downplayed the "leaked spec". Check this out: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?section_name=dev&aid=3364

Interesting nonetheless ;)

Seems kinda bullshitty to me if you think about it...

There's not enough video ram in the box - unless that's *just* ram for displaying the final image to the TV...
The 3 processors would be a bit of an overkill - probably including price wise, and you'd be better off using one or two general processors and then some extra more specialised processors with created APIs for them.

But then again how reliable would a chinese message/bulletin board be?

I think it's bullshitty as well. 10mb of video memory sounds stupid, my old card had 6 megs more and ran like shit. and yeah as Daemin said 3 x 3.5 Ghz sounds way, way, way, way over the top.

AHBULLSHIT!!

I thought they had a deal going with AMD for the x-box2 processor

Sounds pretty dodgy, however, 10Mb of video memory is not neccessarily too little. (Now this is just pure speculation...) That 10 Mb (although being a very strange number, would expect power of 2), may be very very fast "cache-like" memory which the application developer doesn't have direct access too, while the 256Mb of main memory is UMA, similar to the current xbox. 10Mb is a lot of cache, but maybe thats one of MS's features for improved gfx...
Also, the number of cpu's is quite reasonable, it has been stated fairly often that xbox2 would feature a multi-cpu powerpc (G5 equivalent?) architecture. The numbers i've heard previously were 4-6 cpu's.
Fluffy, i think at one stage they were in talks with AMD, but it's been known for a while now that they definitely will be using IBM PowerPC cpu's. They will also be using an ATI graphics processor, i don't think it's decided/public knowledge what chip it will use though??
If you look around you should be able to find some info on hardware/specs sent to developers that contained not the exact hardware, but a "similar" configuration to what might be in the end product.
I hope they up the RAM to 512 though, by the time it is released, the standard RAM in PC's will be around 1024Mb... However, MS don't seem to interested in leading the way as they did with the first xbox... we can only hope.
CYer, Blitz

quote:Originally posted by bullet21

I think it's bullshitty as well. 10mb of video memory sounds stupid, my old card had 6 megs more and ran like shit. and yeah as Daemin said 3 x 3.5 Ghz sounds way, way, way, way over the top.

AHBULLSHIT!!

With any luck the 10mb is missing the 24. Mmmm 1024MB video Ram.

that could be a reasonable assumption Blitz, however that memory would only really be used to store pixel and vertex shaders IMO, and possibly one or two framebuffers, but that's it...

It wouldn't nearly be enough for most modern graphics processes (the numerous different texture maps etc).

However another thing to consider is that the PowerPC processors are RISC in nature, meaning that 3.5 GHz would be much faster than today's processors, however they'll require several instuctions to do the same thing as a single instruction on the PC. Although I guess this all comes down to teh pipeline that they use.

I'm interested in what the cooling system will be like for 3-6 CPU's of that calbire packed into a little black box :P
CYer, Blitz

Sounds like bullshit... IBM are apparently already having enough trouble as it is manufacturing enough viable 970fx's for xServe G5's - and they top out at 2.25GHz. That being said, it was said last year that they hope to hit 3GHz within the next few months. But still - 3 cores? I thought multiprocessor systems, like most things in computers, went by powers of 2?

That RAM you see on the GPU is most probably EDRAM/cache. (Think of something like the PS2's GS or BitBoys' fabled designs.) The future direction for GPU's is resource virtualisation, so it would be used to page in pieces of textures, geometry, code, etc. as needed - groovy stuff.

If anything one of the processors will be the controlling processor, which will delegate tasks to the others as it sees fit. Possibly the developers won't really be able to access all three processors, but just create a multithreaded system where the processor and operating system take care of the details.

And with the GPU ram being just a cache, well I just hope they pack in enough system ram to ensure that the games can actually run. I mean without a hard drive everything will really need to be kept in ram or on the dvd. And dvd reading speeds are notoriously slow compared to ram or a hard drive. I'd say at least a gig would be required.

I'm calling in sceptical on this one...just sounds a bit off, especially 256Mb of RAM and the processors being clocked at 3.5Ghz - multi-general purpose-processor systems aren't necessary for console/pure gaming systems either - of course I realise the PS2 is a multi-processor architecture, but it is actually well thought out (mostly) compared to just chucking 3 G5s into a box.

More Xbox2 spec leaks, possibly indicating that these specs (from first post of this thread) are indeed accurate.

This is what gamasutra had to say about the recent document:

quote:A document has leaked onto the Internet purporting to have been authored by Pete Isensee of the Xbox Advanced Technology Group (ATG). The document seems to contain the technical specifications for the next-generation Xbox and is more believable than previous such revelations largely because of what it leave outs, with many of the components being listed as ?subject to change? and the question of the hard drive as standard remaining unanswered.

Here is a copy of the document: [url]http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=231928[/url]

Sounds like these specs could be true.

Impressive, cant wait to dev on one [:D]

Those specs are detailed enough i'm willing to believe them. It's a very interesting read nonetheless! The graphics unit having direct access to the L2 cache almost sounds crazy, but it seems now that instead of offloading processing onto the graphics unit to free up the CPU, we will now be offloading processing from the graphics unit onto the CPU :) I'll be expecting some pretty fancy graphics on this unit considering the power of the gfx (20 billion vert/pixel instructions per second?!!!) plus the possibility of using the cpu for graphics processing with effectively no extra overhead, or so it seems.
It will still be a pity if xbox2 doesn't ship with HD as standard :(
CYer, Blitz

I don?t think it would really be a big deal if the HD were an optional extra. Most people wouldn?t mind paying the bit extra to upgrade to a HD, while people that don?t care or need it would get by with just a memory card with no worries (and save a few bucks).

The PS2 has a HD as an optional extra, yet hardly anyone seemed to bother getting it. Yet the PS2 was still kinda successful. :P Though maybe the HD is important for online gaming?

The other thing with the add on hard drive, is that article says that it has USB 2.0 for external devices. Meaning that if you have an external HDD, you could just plug it into the xbox2. That could prove to be quite useful. A hard drive that isn't only intended for the xbox. That is of course depending on file formatting options and so forth :)

I don't know if anybody has said this already, but I think it is very unwise of Microsoft to leave out backwards compatability with Xbox games...

Here?s an interesting article about how MS rushing to next-gen could backfire catastrophically.
[url]http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?section_name=pub&aid=3635…]

He makes some good points. I particularly like this sentence:

quote:Herein lies the arrogance; Microsoft isn't used to making decisions as an industry small-fry, and it's trying to act like an industry leader in an industry it simply doesn't lead.

MS seems to be so concerned with the Xbox2. What about the xbox1 and all the players who bought one? what a shame they dont seem to care anymore. First in with the new console wont necassserly mean they will win.

Technology wont win the console war, great games will.

edit: should have typed win, not in

tis Microsoft, they will and always have 'run with their fastest horse' so to speak.

That will never change, which is a shame.

Getting a jump will help them in the short term, but I think theyve got a little more sense than to just pump out a premature shitbox, that wont stand a chance against sony / nintendo next gen.

At least they bought up the Dreamcast, how it failed with it's lead release. A shame as it had some really kick arse games.

It hasn't actually been said that the Xbox2 will not have backwards compatability, so hopefully Microsoft will see how pissed people are getting that rumor and include backwards compatability. I don't think that backwards compatability is a major thing for me, but I was looking at getting a PS2, just so I could get all the re-releases of the Final Fantasy games on PS1.

I don't really like the idea of pudhing it out roughly two years earlier than the other for reasons they stated in that article. The only way Microsoft will be able to manage it is if they can actually sign some good early exclusives and have them released either at, or very close to launch. The Xbox had/has some fantastic games, but not enough of them and not enough variety. With any luck, Microsoft will stick some people over in Japan, watch for some small RPG developer to do something really cool, and then offer them a shit load of money to make something for the Xbox2 :)

The other bad thing about this, is it sounds like the Xbox is going the way of the N64. All the decent games towards the end didn't do well, as people were hanging off for the Gamecube. It does sound like Microsoft have some good games coming out this year, and news of the Xbox2 will only cause people to wait off on purchasing games in case a better version or sequel is released for the Xbox2.

I also agree with makk about the first console out not beeing the best. Tak a look at the dreamcast, it was an absolute flop compared to the other consoles of that generation. But yet Sega was the first to release it.
All this excitment over the Xbox 2 (or is it called the Ybox?) might just lead to the downlfall of xbox 1, which would be a pitty as i just got one ;)

"Xenon" is the working name for the Xbox 2. I sure hope they think of something better then ?Xbox 2? or ?Ybox? or whatever. They may as well just call it the ?MS Shitbox?...

The thing about releasing it early, unlike Sega, MS have the ability to properly support it (because they have lots of money!), so it should do a hell of a lot better then the Dreamcast.

Good call on the Xbox/N64 comparison. If the "Xenon" is out next year, I wouldn't expect developer support for the Xbox to last much beyond 2005.

And although I totally agree it?s the game quality that's important, it's usually the graphics quality that sells games. So if they bring out a handful of visually stunning games on the "Xenon", then it could do very well. I'll probably buy one, anyway.

Though from the specs document, it doesn't look like it will be much fun to develop for!

Many developers have said that the power involved in ANY of the Next gen consoles is basically void. They'll all be so fast/powerful (or pushed to be) that you could hardly tell the difference as long s the hardware is used properly.

I think the big thing for Xbox 2 that makes there focus interesting is XNA, and how well Microsoft has setup Xbox Live. I'm hoping the former is a way to allow developers what Microsoft say it is, a tool to allow for more creativity in gaming rather than to spend half the time in tech development. One can only hope :)

My only fear is it will just allow for MORE crap games. I'm a big fan of the xbox, it has some great games and I'm a big supporter of it. And how they have gone about things seems to be pretty solid so far, although they seem to be shifting a LOT of their ideas now that they are 'in' the race.

PC compatibilty for one, with the first one they tried to steer clear of it like the plague, now I believe they have embraced it with open arms. This could be a good thing. Imagine the amount of players in a MMORPG quadripling due to it's PC base as well etc.

But just the IDEA that they were so willing to go back on their process is intereesting. Hopefully it works out for them.

by interesting did u mean piss poor :P, i'll probably see it for angelina though :)

I think "Sky Captain & The Crud Of Yesteryear" would be a more fitting title [:p] but hey you never know it could turn out ummm......................ok

is it just me or did they totally rip off the theme from Star Gate [?]

I'll probably see it mainly because the art style reminds me of the "Rocketeer." The story looks crap though and angelina? Yeah, she can act? That's news to me :)

Well my first impressions where that it looks like a very fun movie.. It?s got a classic sci-fi fantasy, comic book look to it that seems very original. The style reminds me of those old sci-fi TV shows from the 50?s (like flash Gordon).

Actually, it reminds me of something from Star Trek voyager. There was a black and white holodeck program called ?Captain Proton?, that Tom Paris played in some episodes. It was great stuff ? very original.

quote:angelina? Yeah, she can act? That's news to me

Well, she can act sexy anyway! [;)]

Anyway, I think it?ll be kinda cool. [8D] Not overly serious, but it should be a fun ride. [:)] I for one am looking forward to it.

i think id go see it mainly for the cooky old style sci fi theme (done with a 21st century technology and budget) and jude laws acting. If your not really familiar with him go rent a couple of movies, gataca's a good one.

As i mentioned i think id mainly see it for Angelina Jolie :P

*sigh* you have the internet at your disposal, go do a google image search -_- :P

hehe Palantir, so true :) (about angelina)

Now, for truly classic feel story, check out the trailer for this bad boy :) I can't wait!
[url]http://www.sonypictures.com/movies/thelostskeletonofcadavra/[/url]

I just finished watching the preview of The lost skeleton of Cadavra. Hmmm.
Well it?s certainly a classic feel sci-fi! And it looks very funny! [:D]
But it?s really just a comedy in a classic sci-fi setting, where as Sky Captain is a real action/adventure in a classic sci-fi setting.

It looks to me like The lost skeleton of Cadavra is basically paying out on classic sci-fi, where Sky Captain is honouring it?

Sky Captain is actually an example of a home brew film development. If my memory serves me it was developed single handedly by one guy using consumer 3d and film compositing software. After six years he only had about 10 mins of footage, but it was enough to get someone in Hollywood interested, they poured in cash, sped up production and got some headline talent for it.

I understand that the original footage used in the pitch is still in the film. Also that they created the whole film with stand-in actors and dummies, edited the whole thing together, _then_ shot the big name actors and composited them in as a the final step.

It has a similar story to Rust Boy in development terms, though it has obviously gone mainstream.

As for the story, acting etc I have no idea. On the surface it plays homage to the 1930's futurist vision.

------------------*SPOILERIFIC!!*-------------------
yeah i thought it rocked aswell, probably better then the first. Pai mai was the most clechei(sp?) character but he was still awesome, that beard stroking thing he did was actually really funny for some reason. Bud was a awesome character compared to the likes of the vernita green (i think that was her name... black girl) and bill was just great. Acted really well. The final piece to the story was done extremely well (yer i thought it was gonna be a sword fight to the death typa thing aswell). Also loved when she took out elle drivers other eye, that was so unexpected yet funny. There was a lot more in the way of black comedy in this film and still some nifty fighting (love how driver could never get the sword out of its sheath because the trailer was too small :P). Top stuff

______________NO SPOILERS :P__________

I thought the best part of KBv2 was the preview at the beginning for Hero. Man that looks sweet!!!! from what I understand, the movie is pretty old but Terrentino paid for the dubbing of the re-release.

As for KBv2 and v1 for that matter, I though it was just Ok... Whether Uma's acting was horrible on purpose or not, really detracted from the movie in my opinion. I'd give it a 7out of 10. Good to see, a few laughs, and not really to in depth.

Chris

I really enjoyed the film but I think it would have worked better if the second film was edited down and released as the single film it was intended to be. I just thought that some of the scenes were too long, causing it to drag in many sections and leaving the film without a real high point.

Well, here are my rambling thoughts on Kill Bill. Read at your own risk.

SPOILERS, of course.

I was surprised by how much I enjoyed both movies. They really made me feel like I did watching the early Tarantino flicks. It was something new, seeing all these different genres mixing together around a central action/dark comedy story, but done in the classic Tarantino style.

I saw Kill Bill 2 on Thursday, and I was mildly disappointed by the lack of action, but that?s just because the 1st one was so incredible. There is still plenty of action to be had in Kill Bill 2.

That trailer fight scene was pretty full-on! And I really liked the whole oriental martial arts training scenes. That was kind of like the old martial arts classics. [:)]
Also, I loved the part near the beginning, when she lost the sword and got shot and buried, and I was like ?Oh no! No more martial arts!?, but of course there was still plenty more to come. Great use of the time mismatched story-telling style the Quintan loves.

Anyway, I?ve decided Kill Bill volume 2 is a great movie, and I?ll give it a 4 star. Though I think the first volume deserves a 5 star.

-They better make a special edition DVD box set - Put me down for one!

Sounds awesome, wish I could go. You'll give us a report on all the e3 shenanigans, won't you? [;)]

btw, Sony did a stuff up on their E3 website, so all their E3 announcements/new titles making an appearance have been revealed. [url="http://gamesradar.msn.co.uk/news/default.asp?pagetypeid=2&articleid=298…"]Take a look here[/url]. Some interesting titles to say the least [:)]

[url]www.umart.com.au[/url]
[url]www.gamedude.com.au[/url]

a coupla decent brisbane based places

www.thedishop.com.au isn't bad either.

Gamedude and Umart are pretty cheap, but they suck with customer service ;)

Edit: I have never bought a laptop of these guys though. I would go as far as to say go with Dell or Toshiba if you want to get a laptop (all flames welcome ;))

www.cws.net.au

I have been using CWS for a long time now. Good prices and reliable.

I found hardware in Oz to be roughly 2x the price as in the US. After the exchange rate I would be paying 3/2x the amount as here. So, if I was you, I'd just compair prices with the oz sites and your local sites as it might be cheaper to pick something up before you go to Oz. (I just picked up a SFF system :) I can fit it on as my carryon luggage!!!

http://www.centrecom.com.au

thats the cheapest and best place i know. An example i can offer is that you can get radeon9800XT Saphires for $588.50 and those cards usually retail at around $660. Ive been to them a few times for various things and ive never had a problem. They deliver via online orders or they have stores located in Melbourne and surrouding Victoria areas (hit site for addresses)

CenterCom are sometimes cheaper, sometimes more expensive, same with most "cheap" stores really. They do seem to have a fairly extensive range of laptops though.
I just bought a couple things from centrecom in elsternwick last week, and they were very helpful, the opened up a few different keyboard boxes so i could have a look/feel of them to make sure i got one that was comfortable etc.
CYer, Blitz

hey thats my local centrecom store, i was there today (my sisters overheated her computer somehow and we cant figure out what but the whole thing smells like burning metal n plastic :P ).

[url]www.computeralliance.com.au[/url]
[url]www.surpass.com.au[/url]

These two Brisbane stores are good as well. Surpass's customer service sucks really bad but computer alliance isn't too bad.

I've heard dodgy things about gamedude, btw.

Hi guys, thanks for all the feedback. From the look of these websites it looks like I am going to be better off getting my laptop in the USA or Europe before I come. These ozzie sites all feel a bit 'retro' to me! I'm surprised to find they havent got an Amazon.com.au yet?!

I've bought desktop systems (in pieces and whole) from:

www.auspcmarket.com.au
www.cpl.net.au

Both seem pretty competent, when I was last shopping (July last year), CPL did seem to have better prices than the other on-line mobs.

I have also bought hardware from www.cworld.com.au, but after getting a P2 350 system from them I wouldn't go with them again (no major problems, just "philosophical differences" :)

The others in my list of places (have not verified these URLs recently)

http://www.ht.com.au
http://www.eyo.com.au
http://www.techwarehouse.com.au/
http://www.scorptec.com.au/
http://www.cougar.com.au/

YMMV,

Mark

computer world are in lamens terms, morons. They advertise things on their websites they dont have and havent even heard of when you talk to a person in store. Infact, its not even on their list of things they can order from other stores and such. This has been my experience

CPL have good prices, and are generally good about having things in stock, or letting you know. They have no online ordering system though, they only sell direct from the store.
I just bought (almost) all the parts for my new system there, and everything seems to eb fine, except the power supply they sold me was quite underpowered for an athlon64 system, and they said it would be fine, thats my only real gripe. They are very very busy both times i went down there, so i would say that perhaps they don't always have the highest level of expertise on the desk selling you stuff, particularly when it comes to newer gear (like athlon64 etc.) some of the sales people may not be the best people to ask "is this compatible with this" etc. :)
They were quite reasonable when i returned the power supply, since there was nothing actually wrong with it (it just didn't supply enough amps to power a decent athlon64 system), and gave me store credit without giving me much trouble.
CYer, Blitz

Blitz, Just out of interest, are you seeing much of a performance difference for compiles with the Athlon64? :) I imagine VC++ is IO-bound, but just wondered :)

MoonUnit, yeah actually now that you mention it, I do remember buying a switch at computer world, rang up, checked the model number with them, going all the way down there and then finding that they didn't have that model. But they were quite flexible in being willing to deliver my beloved 21" trinitron :) Or maybe it was the weight of the beast that made them flexible... hmm not sure [;)]

Haven't even got a compiler installed yet!
I don't imagine there would be mountains of difference over the equivalent athlon 32-bit if thats what you're wondering (other than the 64's have double the cache i think, which may help...)
Unfortunately i don't have an athlon 32 3200+ to compare against, so the best benchmark you could get out of me is cfomparing it to an athlon 600 (i think the 64 might be a wee bit faster!).
I'd also suggest that the compiler may not be that I/O bound (unless you're working with a MAMMOTH project). Once the files are loaded once, they'd pretty much stay in memory (as long as they don't get paged out). Depending on memory size, theres probably a good chance the linker might take an i/o hit from the compiled .obj files...
Probably gonna come down to how much RAM you have. A mid-large project can use upwards of 256 meg of memory to compile...
CYer, Blitz

www.razorprices.com

its an aussie website and it lets you compare prices of stuff. you just search for it and it will give you the shop with the best price.

www.ausprices.com is similar, unfortunately neither of these sites cover most of the stores in australia.
This thread on whirlpool contains pretty much any decent pc shop in australia with a (even minimal) web presence.
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=131657
CYer, Blitz

Here's a link to a comment on that Pyrogon article. Gives some reasons why Pyrogon failed as a business. Interesting insights! I never knew those game portals made that much money at all, although it's much too late to jump on that ship now. [url="http://www.asharewarelife.com/2004_04_18_archive.html#108276107361227120"]Link here[/url].

btw, originally found from Scott Miller's blog - [url="http://dukenukem.typepad.com/game_matters/2004/04/pyrogon_gone_a_.html#…"]some good discussion about it there[/url].

Very interesting indeed, he makes some pretty valid points. certainly changed my viewsa bit.

Yeah, do make sure you take a look at http://www.asharewarelife.com/2004_04_18_archive.html#108276107361227120 (referenced in Scott Miller's blog that souri links to) in combination with Brian Hook's article tho.

Have you tried both opengl and directx?
I have an mx440 and i get like 5-10fps in bf1942, although thats more due to my lack of RAM (and possibly cpu).
I assume by "lags" you mean framerate :)
Does it lag more offline (with bots) or online? BF1942 has settings to drop the amount of AI processing done, which might mean dumber bots, but at least you'll be able to shoot them...Also remember to turn down any graphics settings that may not run so well on the mx440 (environment mapping etc. maybe)
CYer, Blitz

would this be becase the GF4mx440 is just an old gf2mx chipset?

It is, but bf1942 is also an old game. It should run fine on geforce 2's or GF4MX's (maybe not with full detail of course).
CYer, Blitz

it ;ags when i play with, directx on the lowest settings. on singleplayer to. Im just asking how to play with opengl

What CPU have you got in your PC?

a P4 1.5 GHZ

Hey BULLET21, By the sounds of it, you've upgraded your old system by adding a new Video card, yes? If your card is AGP8X and your motherboard only supports AGP4X, it will still work but you need to update your AGP or chipset drivers. I also had this problem. Games still work but have really crappy fps. I just updated my drivers and that did the trick.

My card is AGP4x as well. The problem was that my hard disk just needed a defragmnent

Ohh, so its all fixed now, thats cool! Its weird that all it needed was a defrag.

Ha, it looks better than most 1GB+ games, and takes less time to load.

Yer, runs ok on my system. I got upto the invisible barrier that blocks a door in the large room. I think thats the end of the game, but from what I saw I was very impressed. Those guys are pretty hardcore =]

Yeah, very impressive. Performance could be significantly better though.

1) it's 96kb
2) it's beta, so why are you expecting performance to be great?
3) it's 96kb

Obviously the work of someone whos into the demo scene. [:)]
Pretty impressive, amazing compression, I've seen a few scrolling demos etc but nothing you can interact with.
Industry programmers could take not of the compression techniuqes lol.

I'm sure if you add decent A.I., more varied textures and higher resolution meshes as well as the multitude of other assets needed to make a game really good it would soon reach a few hundred meg. [:P]

I like the precendent something like this sets.

Instead of downloading huge games (more so on portable devices than PC) you can just download small executables that unpack and setup when they're required, or when they have space...

have a read through the readme, they briefly discuss their compression techniques.

cheers

its all red on my computer.

I didn't mean to sound too harsh. My comment on performance was based purely on their recommended specs. My machine is much faster but it still couldn't maintain a smooth framerate in most areas.

looks amazing indeed.

wish the video was a better quality-

Yeah... it's... o-kayyyy... I guess.

:0~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Each character has as much detail as one level from Unreal 1 :D

I found some pics of the demonstration...its even more impressive in high quality, i would love to watch it like this.
Im suprised not many people have commented on this thing.
[img]http://www.airliedesign.com.au/images/post.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.airliedesign.com.au/images/unreal3.jpg[/img]

err. Nice... art?
I feel old and cynical, but honestly, all it takes nowadays is another texture pass, +2000 polys, and a scary monster to make people wet themselves. Then another company repeats the procedure the following year.

err..man.....they are in realtime.

if you watch the video...youll realize how good those pictures look.

The vid shows a few brute force enviros, some pretty shaders on cubes, some lighting effects, and the before said scary monsters with more polys and another texture pass.

Yes, it all looks lovely; nice and moody, good art, but my point is that this trend is getting old. Just a personal thing, but it doesn't work on me anymore.

edit: just wanted to add, that this is my personal feelings towards this trend - I know it won't go over well, but the hyping of "The Next Big Thing" just doesn't work for me anymore. It's just gotten old.

There is a lot more going on there than some more polys and better textures. While I was working at Epic I saw the engine first hand. We are talking completely dymanic per pixel lighting here. The game look better than most prerendered stuff I have seen.

No doubt someone will come along in a few years and better it, but I don't think you will see such a damatic leap in visuals for a while, considering just how time consuming it is to make a game with that level of visual quality. You see that fountain at the start of the vid? It took one month just to make that model! Some companies may well drown because of this technology.

I think that the technology that is being created now will give people extra things to think about when deciding what engine to use. it will be no longer what kind of technology does it use, but how long will the art take to create so that the technology will be utilised.

Right now I hope that Epic create some damn good tools to use with the latest engine, because if they don't then it will be horrible!

I couldn't agree more.

nothing shows of realtime high poly rendering better than a cool highly detailed scary monster or and an awesome higly detailed enviroment...the whole games industry(and movie as well) is all about having the "Next big thing" to showcase, because technology can only get better, and it is was is keeping the games industry growing. Its sad if your not excited about where it is going, especially if it is your career.

I personally love every new thing.

Thankyou for proving my point Rahnem [:)]

I am a cynical prick. I've been burnt as both a consumer and a developer on this same thing for the last 4 years.

Obviously I was over exaggerating with my comment of a few extra passes and poly's -- but my point stands. Of course it's a shit load more through-put, of course it has a better more physically accurate lighting model, of course it affords how many ever times more complexity assets to be spit out. It is a lovely technical demonstration for the geforce 6. I look at this stuff as both a consumer and a developer -- as a consumer I go "yeah, cool, looks awesome, it'll be good when it's available" and as a developer I think "aww shit, not another 2 years tacked onto development because the hardware and market demand the content."

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a great job they're doing, it looks awesome, but I'm cynical of the trend it presents.

quote:Originally posted by J.I. Styles
as a developer I think "aww shit, not another 2 years tacked onto development because the hardware and market demand the content."

From a business point of view that is a bad thing, the hey days of the games industry have passed, but from an artist/design point of view it should be exciting.

i was just blown away by the art....
its not so much "i can put normal maps on my wall texture now" its how these new technologies have been intergrated into some amazing artwork.

Indeed.

This is most impressive.

Meh, I like my games to look like games. Yes, thats right, I dont care if you think thats stupid, but there is somthing I like about low poly models with a nicely painted texture wrapped around them. I dont care if the lightining isnt mathmatically correct or that it doesnt look life like.
As a piece of art it certiantly looks good, but I guess Im just old fashioned.
Production time and costs are going to go through the roof as well.
Better put on my flame protection suit.
[/rant]

actually makk i understand where your coming from. I remember in PSone 64 days and the characters and enviroments in those games were far from photoreal and i just loved it. Dont quite know why but theres actually something cool in a total realisation that its not real. I dont go against the above photoreal type technology though.

Cripes indeed!
Simply, that was the most awesome game thing I?ve ever seen! [:D] Just think of the possibilities with an engine like that? revolutionary stuff.

I am sooOOoo looking forward to the future of computer games! It?s stuff like this that reminds me why I love games and want to work in the industry so much.

*tries to ignore negative comments*
(err.., no, I can?t resist responding)
*Puts on flame retardant suit*
[;)]

It?s just that I don?t think we have to worry about losing other types and styles of games just because the latest technology has been developed. Personally, I?m a fan of various games from various eras. Some of my favourite games were made 20 years ago! However, I?ve always enjoyed the new technologies that come along, they have always been fun new aspects of gaming to explore, but I don?t think they ever completely replace the old stuff.

Yeah, it will probably be a massive venture to produce a title with this technology, but I guess that means many teams will continue to develop titles on a budget (as with all new technology ? not everyone uses it). And the few projects that can afford the time and the technology will create an exciting new realm of computer gaming!

I don?t see how any gamer could look at this demo and not be awestruck and excited. This is the future of games. Though don?t worry, we?ll still have low-poly gaming.

Of course I have never worked in the industry, so I am certainly no authority (and this is just my opinion), but I do love games. I just hope working in the industry doesn?t diminish my enthusiasm very much when/if I eventually make games professionally.

hehe, just like half-life 2 promo stuff running on the latest radeon was the future of gaming, making "a reality more real than this one". And before that, Farcry, which "revolutionises the way we play games". And before that Doom 3 which "brings games to life with a truly cinematic experiance".

It's all very nice to look at, but it doesn't really excite me in the way the hype used to around the quake 2 and 3 days -- I'll be excited when I have zbrush 2.x, a Geforce 6, and a copy of Unreal 3 running on my home system.
The way I feel about it, is we haven't even seen doom3 or half life 2 yet, which used to be the "Next Big Thing" to be excited about, and now there's a replacement to look forward to in the distant future. Now hl2 and d3 is old news, just like unreal 3 will be when the next big thing is previewed well before its release. Yes, the future is looking bright, but I'd prefer to be rooted in the present. Maybe I'm a cynical prick, but I'd prefer to be excited over something I have here and now [:)]
or maybe I've been influenced too much by a certain realist... [;)]

god damn. When I saw this I was impressed to see how far realtime rendering has come and it is a taste of the next generation of video games, but it is also overwhelming, the amount of art content that will have to go into these games. I don't think many developers are going to be able to handle the load of artwork that will be required to take advantage of this technology.

One interesting thing Carmack said at the GDC relating to this explosion in art content, is not mking all new art content for every game, but sharing lots of common items. The exapmple he mentioned iirc was things like barrels or crates. Are they so specific to a game they need to be done all over again?
He mentioned that iD is sharing quite a few "common" Doom 3 art assets with Raven (Quake4) to help reduce workloads.
It's entirely possible (especially with the "5 major studio's that will do all the games" theory), that studio's might have dedicated art teams that produce common art to be used in the various 50-100 games that the studio is working on at any one time.
There are already plenty of independant companies i believe that do things like this, although i'm not totally sure about what i'm goign to say...but things like SpeedTree, VirtualMechanix (is that name right? :P). I mean, how many ways are there to model a porche 911 if you want it to look realistic. ONE! Because all porche 911's look the same (except for pain, accessories etc.), well, i don't know a lot about cars so please don't execute me if i'm wrong and there are 10 different 911 porche variations or something :) But you get the idea.
CYer, Blitz
PS. Haven't watched the video's yet, but those images don't really look anything better than Doom 3...please excuse any ignorance.

more art = more jobs

am i wrong?

More jobs = more money spending for develepors though.
Not only that, but due to high production costs there maybe some developers who wont take the risk to make something fresh and new, and instead use the tried and true gameplay mechanics they know that poeple like.

Ok, Im being really negative arent I!!!

more art = overworked artists? :)

If companies do start sharing assets, you will probably see a dramatic drop in the originality of gaming worlds. Why create a game on the planet Zeebunger 6, when, for a fraction of the cost, you could set your game in a warehouse full to the brim with 60 different types of crates?

This is an exaggeration, of course. In reality, this probably just means that photorealistic games will become the norm (which would be a bloody shame).

Interesting to hear that Doom3 and Quake4 will share assets... i guess that means they will look kinda similar. Not a surprise really.

cheers

But I mean how many models of a shutgun do we need smeg?

quote:Originally posted by Makk
there maybe some developers who wont take the risk to make something fresh and new, and instead use the tried and true gameplay mechanics they know that poeple like.

Exactly - the tried and true methods of makeing games will stay around, as everyone here has pointed out, there will still be plenty of room for "traditional" games (as opposed to photorealistic games) in the market place.

Yeah, but what about new styles of games. Innovation in gameplay, not graphics, that sort of stuff.
Meh, I think I have derailed this thread enough [:o)]

The problem will be for smaller developers, or an indy developer. There's no place in the market at the moment for 'non-blockbuster' style of titles. Especially on the PC, every game has to use the latest tech, otherwise you might as well be making a console game. What can an indy developer hope to achieve these days? I think the escalating costs will dramatically change the expectations that a small/indy developer will strive for and I guess with all this 'professionalism' the industry has been gravitating towards this all the time.

Don't get me wrong, the new tech looks awesome. But much like every movie can't have Matrix-esque special effects, not every game will be able to look photo-realistic. Here's hoping distributors/publishers/marketers can get their heads around it.

My biggesr worry is with all this technology, tech might become the focal point of the games industry, instead of gameplay it will be about graphics. As far as im concerned, i agree with makk. Just give me game play and non-photorealistic GFX and im happy.

EDIT: unless you can get both, then i'll be permanently smiles [8D]

With regards to technology....on the film side, Lord of the rings set a new benchmark with technology, and it was a huge acheivment. They showed that you can do that, without degrading it, and still tell a great story. I think it depends on who is making the game(or film) and their dedication to the story...alot of companies just rely on the tech to sell the game.

Examples of upcoming games that will have a good story, plus pretty graphics: Half Life 2, STALKER.
Example of an upcoming game that will be relying on the tech, thus pretty graphics: Doom 3.

Half Life 2's story will have to be about forty times better than Half Life's story for it to qualify as 'good'
:P

got the latest patches?

yeah i got 1.02, and all the required map packs.

It's working for me - I can see servers no problem. I can only recall one patch for the game (and a few more server patches), and I don't have any map packs. No idea what could be happening at your end.

I got it working lads. it was Norton Internet Security, it had the firewall enabled. All i had to do was disable it. It's quite a lot of fun. Especially the Panzerfaust

oh another 'Revolutionary' and 'Blazingly Fast' video card.

but with zbrush2 coming out. it may be a good idea to think about upgrading my geforce 3.

What happened to 5? or was the FX series instead of that...

Yeah, FX was the fifth GeForce series. Maybe they forgot that they would have to name a sixth.

I read some of the benchmarks on anandtech, some where damn impressive, I forget which tests were the ones where it doubled the frame rate of a radeon 9800xt, some of the other tests werent that impressive, but doubling a 9800xt is pretty good

I hope that they fix up their image quality a little. Have a look at the FarCry screens from off Tom's Hardware :/ If it is just a driver fault then it looks like it may be quite a nice card. As long as you have a power supply to support it :)

I imagine that ATI have a similarly powerful card in the pipeline with the R423 (PCI express). Graphics tech is just getting ridiculous, most programmers/developers can't keep up with it. Look at FarCry for instance, it already runs bloody smooth on a 9800XT, yet in six months time or less it'll look 'dated' compared to what is possible with next gen graphics tech.

I imagine the NV40 is going to cost a mother-load too. I mean, 512 registers, 16 pipelines or something like that? Were are talking gazillions of transistors here which is going to cost $$$.

It has about 50 million more transitors then the latest P4. About 220 million or something like that. I'm sure it'll cost a pantload.

bah if you absoluetly must stay up with the latest graphics cards as soon as they hit the shelves then kudos to you, just hold off a couple months after release and youll pretty much loose 15-40% the original release price.

A couple months... or a couple hundred bux,.. meh.. following maitreks comments - if youve got a geforce 4/fx or radeon9800 or thereabouts you probably wont notice MUCH difference at all when playing games, as the graphics tech is way way ahead.

i know you people are probably interested to see this so:

Graphics Core 256-bit
Memory Interface 256-bit
Memory Bandwidth 35.2 GB/sec.
Fill Rate 6.4 billion texels/sec.
Vertices per Second 600 Million
Memory Data Rate 1100 MHz
Pixels per Clock (peak) 16
Textures per Pixel* 16
RAMDACs 400 MHz

[img]http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/nvidia_geforce_6800_ultra/images/ut…]

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/nvidia_geforce_6800_ultra/page20.asp

makes saving up to buy a radeon 9600 seem really pointless...

Exactly, you can pick up 128Mb 9800 Pro's for ~400 these days. I'd definately save that $300 and go with the Pro rather than the slightly faster XT.

400.... where and what manufac?

Radeon 9800 Pro (Powercolor - 128MB) - http://www.pc-express.com.au (VIC) ($386.10)
Radeon 9800 Pro (Powercolor - 128MB) - http://www.i-tech.com.au (NSW) ($379) ***NEW***
Radeon 9800 Pro (Powercolor - 128MB) - http://www.cpl.net.au (VIC) ($465)
Radeon 9800 Pro (Powercolor - 128MB) - http://www.bluefiretechnology.com (VIC) ($455) *Delivery Only*
Radeon 9800 Pro (GeCube - 128MB) - http://www.ticomputers.com.au (NSW) ($428)
Radeon 9800 (GeCube - 128MB) - http://www.below-0.com.au (QLD) ($429)

So they are not Asus or Hercules or some big brand like those, but the performance differences are extremely small. In some cases the GeCube cards have proven to be quicker and enjoy being overclocked quite a bit. There are heaps of benchmarks of these cards on the net. I see no reason to pay an extra $100-$200 to get a Sapphire or other big brand. Quality is not an issue with the cheaper cards either. We sell plenty of GeCube 9600-9800's at work and never get any returns.

This is quite a good link that is kept up to date with the latest in video card prices around Oz.
[url]http://www.atomicmpc.com.au/forums.asp?s=2&c=7&t=153[/url]

Why not show the stats at 1280 x 1024 x 32 & 1024 x 768 x 32, that would be the most frquently used resolutions id say, i think the differences there would mean almost nill to the human eye, in terms of frame rate anyways. i think prettier and more texture layers / pixel shader capabiilty etc is awesome - but i honestlyu dont see the point in getting a higher and higher res + 100's of frames per second,.. when the most the human eye can see is around 60 - 75 fps.

I remember way back when the TNT 2 ultra came out and it was pushing something like 50-60 fps on quake @ 800 x 600 / 1024 x 768 - which made it easily playable - imagine what some of todays graphics cards will run @ .. like 500+ fps - given that obviously quake is pretty old tech nowadays
still,..

GFORCE 15 WOW 89237487 fps 15gb onboard ram only $4995!! WOOoo now if only i could get a 42" monitor that runs at 16384 x 12288 @ 100Hz! so i can see some of the goodness! [:D] or perhaps a game that actually uses 128 textures per pixel !!

/winge

Except that quake is such old tech, it gets very little (if any)performance gain running on newer GFX cards :) I'ts mianly your processor speed thats gonna improve your quake frames. :)
CYer, Blitz

The main thing is that very few benchmarks show the minimum fps on games. I don't care if a card can display HL2 at 1600 at 80+ fps average. I want to know what the minimum peaks are and how frequently it hits them. The most anoying aspect is playing a game and having it all of a sudden crawl to a 5fps lul when you turn to a certain angle :(

ah now i understand the 400ish price tag, most of them are powercolours (which apparently have a habit of breaking).

Actually the human eye can only pick up 25 frames per second. The reason that 25fps looks so bad is because when we see something real we are actually seeing the total light over a 1/25th of a second period. Meaning we pick up motion blur and various crap like that. If you pause a video, you'll notice that one frame is *heaps* blurry because a video camera picks up light over a reasonably comparable time frame (depending on shutter speed of a camera), meaning it also picks up artefacts like motion blur. However a computer renders something in it's instantaneous state (more often than not) so it only shows the image in an infintisimally small time frame.

We can't tell the difference between 70fps and 170fps because the screen doesn't refresh much quicker than 70Hz (70 times per second). This doesn't mean that the human eye sees 70fps. 70fps on a 170Hz screen would look noticeably 'fake' next to 170fps running on the same screen. This doesn't mean the human eye can pick up 170fps though, it just means that more frames are picked up by the eye over a 1/25th of a second period, meaning the brain will receive a more smooth/realistic image.

sorry - yeah your right maitrek i understand that just got caught up in thw whole big wow over 300+frames per second video cards...

I just felt like making a Publis Service Announcement :)

I'm surprised that they (tech guys) aren't doing more to 'sacrifice' framerate and improve image 'believability' with modern graphics cards. I know that 3DFX attempted to do this with it's Voodoo 5 graphics cards, but they were mistimed - now that we have ridiculous shaders and very believable 'still' rendering, we should really move onto making things look good in motion.

question, is a "GeForce FX 5900 w/VIVO (Leadtek - 128MB)" for 400 bucks a good deal, from the previous graph it looks like that that card might be better then a 9800XT (which are like 650 minimum)

My friend bought his 256mb 9800TX at the local computer fair for $600. I can't remember the actual brand name, but he hasn'y had any problems so far (after 6 weeks).

I think i read somewhere that the GFFX cards are faster at anti-aliasing than the radeon 9800's, but other than that the 9800's tend to be faster...
Maitrek, i'm interested what you mean by sacrificing frame-rate for believability...particularly with the programmable graphics pipeline now, higher framerates mean being able to squeeze more shader instructions in which if all goes well == more realistic graphical/lighting effects...
CYer, Blitz

There's very little speed difference between the 5900 and 9800XT. From what I can remember, the 5900 has a faster memory clock and higher fill rate.

Awesome stuff.

Any guys here won any console game competitions?

Yeah, I've won a few. Most notably a Southern California Street Fighter II tournament on the SNES wayyyyy back in the day. Surprisingly, I played my brother in the finals :)

-Wes

[url]http://www.weslouie.com[/url]