General Chat

I saw games like tomb raider and DOA and thought "I'm gonna get me some of that" so i took up game programming.
It is my career dream in life to engineer the best boob physics ... EVER.
CYer, Blitz

quote:Originally posted by Blitz It is my career dream in life to engineer the best boob physics ... EVER.

you gonna have a hard time competing with DOA-X :p good luck though. Sexy Beach 2 is a good place to look for breast physics as well :D

i started programming when i was about 15, using BASIC and messing around with Gameboy programming, which somehow managed to totally munt up the family PC...

ive just always wanted to know how PC programs and games worked...so i started learning programming seriously at the start of this year and so far i am loving it all!

i am almost finished making a Battleships game in Java for my TAFE course, and i am pretty happy with it...

quote:Originally posted by Blitz

It is my career dream in life to engineer the best boob physics ... EVER.

That will take alot of research[:D][:p].

quote:Originally posted by Happy Camper

quote:Originally posted by Blitz

It is my career dream in life to engineer the best boob physics ... EVER.

That will take alot of research[:D][:p].

Which male here wouldn't want to do that kinda research?

is that a rhetorical question?

i think i started out with a spline object...

the extended version:

got my first computer when i was in grade 10..started making webpages with frontpage express and graphics in paintshoppro. learnt a couple web languages- started coding websites and using dreamweaver and photoshop. was doing small web/graphic design jobs in grade 11-12. first shown 3dsmax around the middle of grade 12. started using it last couple weeks of school. got into a 3dcourse that i would start after i finish school. course turned out to be quite a waste of money- but gave me a year to teach myself a lot of 3d. spent the first few months of this year working on my skills. got into the industry. completed a contract, was asked to stay on but had to leave for reasons. went back to demoreel. that is where i am now. it is getitng close to complete. then i will look at moving abroad.

reason i picked this..seemed to be the thing i was best at. and would make money at. sure i enjoy it...but its not my "dream" career-
if i wanted that id be an F1 or champcar driver :) but ill just have to settle with my elite gokart skills lol [8D]

Nutshell version

I started drawing in high school
It was when I was at Uni studying psychology that I realised that I really wanted to do something creative for a living.
Over the next few years I studied art and acting. During this time I got a bit of freelance art work (some of which I need digital art programs for hence my introduction to photoshop 4) and was performing on stage at least once a week.
It was not till I got the scholarship with Qantm that I decided to fully dedicate to art, rather then acting. It was also then that I realised that art for video games was something that I might be able to do for a living.
Now I work as an artist for Half Brick.

Pantmonger

I posted a few threads like this before, just in case you didn't know. [:)] [url="http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=733"]Artists[/url], and [url="http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=670"]programmers[/url]. The programmers thread was really interesting!

thanks Souri. i didn't see that when i went browsing through all the forums. thanks.

I got into drawing because of cartoons. Cartoons then lead to games. Games then lead to wasting heaps of time but fortunately school has brought me back into personal development. But now i do more PD than play games.Hopefully in the end it will work itself out.

i was just playing vice city for 30mins myself- i feel like going out on a killing spree now- you better watch out if you ride around on a motorbike, i enjoy shooting from them with my uzi while i ride around the city jumping from buildings and listening to my fav songs...:p

all because some wacko with a shit parenting cant take responsibility for his own actions...give me a break.

Someone should sue the various companies that publish copies of the bible. Makes about as much sense, if not more.
CYer, Blitz

While I agree that games are not to blame for violent behaviour but I wonder how much subconscious influence occurs when we watch violent movies or play violent games? Obviously not enough to want to blow people away - but could a diet of violent games be enough to put 'unbalanced' individuals over the edge? People who have mental issues and draw influence from their favourite violent activity. Any psychos out there want to comment on this?

I want to draw something to people's attention: Tonight we (workmates) were watching Reloaded fight scenes on our break and when we finished to go downstairs, about 4 of the 7 people who watched it threw a 'mock' punch of light kick to someone else. Just as a joke, of course -- we're all well-balanced folk. But I do note the amount of playfighting that goes on after violent content is viewed (we all imitated wrestling as kids, right?). It's all in good fun, but it's something that makes me think.

But I dont think it's fair to blame games, movies OR PARENTS. Hands up if you think your parents were really capable of controlling you. Once you start getting a bit of independence around the age of 14/15 or so, it gets harder for them to make you do what they want. So how can they possibly parent us? So much goes on out of the house when we are with our friends or social peers - parents can't do shit. And of course, with teens being the moody pricks they are (I know I was), parents do have cause to be worried or suspect that kids are up to no good. Did anyone here accept their parents offer to 'talk about anything'?

Just some defence for the parents out there.

i've been playing Halo PC this week, and i have an urge to travel a few hundred years into the future and start killing creatures that don't exict with weapons that dont exist.

as for everquest. phht the people who play that dont even see sunlight, let alone other people.

dick heads. they've been trying this hit since doom 2, and they haven't gotten anywhere really fast. take that as a hint.

people are capable of killing without having to play games, watch movies or listen to music.

just read your post Mr Kerr (i was replyied and then refreshed). i work in a supermarket, and kids may actually listen to their olds, if they started parenting them at a young enough age. parents now, just dont give a shit about their kids. they have sex (w/o protection) and then have some little screaming shit pop out 9 months later. they dont want them and they dont know how to deal with them. im sorry, but i am really passionate about this whole 'parenting' crap that doesn't go on. if parents would look after their kids and teach them when they are young enough, i wouldn't have to spend half my day cleaning up after the little prick... er.. darlings. maybe schools should be sued for not showing kids how to preform good oral sex in sex ed classes?

i do agree that when they reach 14 or so they do stop listening to their parents and start listening to their friends more. so who do these people sue? the entire human race for talking to each other?

as for more violent behavour after watching a movie? not me personally. sure i may want to become some arse kicking white guy carrying a Katana after watching Kill Bill, but i have wanted to do that since i first saw Japanese history in primary school. and that was WAY before i started watching movies (i got started really late on those).

i do agree that playing a violent game may induce more violent behaviour in a mentally unstable person, but so could walking into McDonalds and not recieving enough sauce on their burger.

this is one of the greyist areas of computer gaming. i hate it even more than MP3 debates.

yeah this game violence dance has been done to death before.

in my comment about parents - i was just generalising- im not sitting here going THE PARENTS! THE PARENTS! because really i dont know. im not going to begin to act like i know what makes someone snap like that.

Exactly - it's like you said -- it could even be down to not enough sauce on your burger (best argument ever!). I mean, if you lost your job, got dumped, found out it was with your best mate your (now) ex was cheating with, little shit like not enough sauce or slow service is usually the shit that pushes people over the edge. The straw that broke the camels back, so to speak. Those who are unable to think for themselves or have real trouble rationalising the consequences of their actions are hardly likely to think of coming up with their own ways to kill people if they end up flipping out. I imagine that they'd just draw inspiration from whatever their favourite 'thing' is.

quote:after watching Kill Bill, but i have wanted to do that since i first saw Japanese history in primary school. and that was WAY before i started watching movies (i got started really late on those).

Regardless, seeing something that intrigued you brought out these emotions. These things are cyclical - in my parents days, it was Rock 'n' Roll music is the devil, then it was comic books, then it was hippy music/weed/whatever, then it was violent movies and WWF wrestling or Garbage Gang collector cards. Now it's videogames. People will always point the finger at something.

When I was referring to kids, I wasnt referring to youngsters, they dont really seem to be the ones that get drawn into these game 'shock horror' stories (although I do remember an Arab kid who thought he could fly or something a year ago). I do agree that parents are to guide young kids at a young age and teach them things that will eventually enable those kids to grow into good adults.

Personally, I believe in educating kids (it's happening now, teachers are expected to call a penis a penis, not a 'wee wee' or 'pee pee') so that they can make decisions for themselves. Educate them about sex or drugs or whatever, because the bottom line is (are you listening America?) that banning something is not going to stop people from trying it.

But in saying that, educating someone doesn't mean that they'll always choose the right course of action.

I realise I've been taking both sides of the argument. For one, I dont believe games/media/whatever cause people to kill others, but I do think that there may be some influence drawn from these things if individuals do decide to cause havoc.

In the end, it's always down to the individual and many factors, NEVER just one.

This kind of debate has raged for centuries. I think we should just wake up and realise the violent nature of the human condition and get on with our lives (unless of course, you have been shot dead by some deranged kid with access to the power to kill with impunity, in which case you don't have any life to get on with).

It's not about the games, comics, rock'n'roll or drugs. It's always been about our lack of control over power that we give ourselves. This reflects both on our lack of control in regards to the power to give life (parenting), and our lack of control over the power to take life (killing).

I've probably already said this a million times before though.

However, on the topic of kids being effed up...I remember a time when kids were allowed time to be innocent, to enjoy what life is without the responsibility of telling a priest to go get laid by a prostitute or that a boy should keep his dick in his pants until he can grow hair on his balls.

Sex and violence is ***everywhere*** nowadays - I'm not personally offended by it...but it does irritate me that we force such realities onto kids at such a young age.

As far as games are concerned - I've said this before - but I find it slightly concerning that a very large portion of video games reward violent acts and display little sophistication in regards to problem solving. I think games need to grow in this regard - and I'm sure they will over time. Especially if we start getting forced to put effort into violent content reduction (and don't pretend it can't happen)

What really shits me, is how $246 million dollars is being claimed? Whoever is sueing those companies is clearly a total tosser. There is NO PRICE on a human life - getting money for nothing is the biggest load of bullshit.

Don't get me wrong, I feel for the victims, perhaps they should get free grief counselling and *some* monetary aid if they can't make it on their own for a while or if they are struggling etc.

But to simply greedily demand money to replace the life of another is such effing crap - it's this kind of capitalistic crap that is the cotton from which our society's fabric is woven, and quite frankly it sickens me.

quote:
But to simply greedily demand money to replace the life of another is such effing crap - it's this kind of capitalistic crap that is the cotton from which our society's fabric is woven, and quite frankly it sickens me.

"They talk about how many Communism killed and they talk about how many Fascism killed but they'll never tell you how many Capitalism killed because: a) They wouldn't know where to start and b.) it would never end." -- Julie Burchill.

My new favourite quote of the moment.

quote:Originally posted by Maitrek
As far as games are concerned - I've said this before - but I find it slightly concerning that a very large portion of video games reward violent acts and display little sophistication in regards to problem solving. I think games need to grow in this regard - and I'm sure they will over time. Especially if we start getting forced to put effort into violent content reduction (and don't pretend it can't happen)

that is very true. i have to admit that a lot of my favourite games of all time have had little or no actual violence. Myst, Sim City, Theme Park. and although i do like violence in games, so do take it WAY too far. Solder Of Fortune 2 is a prime example. do we really need to see people with half their head blown across the room and fragments of their brain sliding down the wall? i wouldn't mind if that wasn't there, in fact i would probably enjoy it more.

ther was in interesting article earlier this year in EDGE about gaming and violence. the writer came up with an angle that i found interesting. games have become a lot more violent, but in a different way. if you pile enough blood in there, to me, it loses a lot of believability and just becomes cartoony. ther is another way to look at the level of violence though, how it is done. in the past, games were generally left alone as they were games like Doom, Quake, and so forth, where you ran around and killed bizarre creatures with weapons that dont exist. sure people tried to say this caused violence and high school shootings, most people just ignored them as there really isn't THAT direct a connection. when games apeared where an actual person was harmed though, shit hit the fans. i remember that as soon as Lethal Enfocers on the arcades came out, people really got up about that as you shot reall photos of people. it didn't matter if they were terrorists or not. violence against another human being is still a lot worse than an alien. now we have gone from just wasting several hundred enimies in one go to having a more personal angle to the violence. games like MGS, where you are meant to stalk your enemies and then shoot them in the back of the head, have raised the violence level again. even if you take out all the blood, the act is still there. you dont just walk up and take out five guys in cold blood with an automatic rifle, you now learn to watch someone. see how they move, and then, when the perfect opotunity arises, jump down behind hem and stab them in the back of the neck. violence has become more believable, not more violent. GTA and State of Emergency shows this as well. we can laugh and say that we may never do the acts that are seen in those games, but a lot of americans have that ability right in front of them. they have large domesticated cities and high power weapons available. what is really stopping them from getting a weapon and walking into a shopping centre and killing two dozen people in cold blood? nothing really. as i have said, ANYTHING could bring them to do this, but the game does help to implant the ideas.

and i agree whole heartedly with the money crap. i think that is what works me up so much with this. so many people in life are driven so much by money that they believe that it can make them happy. even when a loved one dies. they need to learn that throwing enough money at something will not make it go away.

also, one last note. i work with a guy that is nuts about guns. has been for most of his life. goes out shooting, and not just a target. he shoots small animals on friends property and even watermellons. the thing is, he loved guns and violence before he liked games. he actually started to like games as he could carry out the killing of people in one form. he does play GTA:VC a lot, but does this mean that he will be more likely to go on a murderous rampage? quite francly, im not too sure. just though about him last night and thought that i would mention him.

a grey area indeed.

Mario makes me want to jump on all your heads!! Games don't kill people... anal debates kill people.

quote:Originally posted by JonathanKerr

But I dont think it's fair to blame games, movies OR PARENTS. Hands up if you think your parents were really capable of controlling you. Once you start getting a bit of independence around the age of 14/15 or so, it gets harder for them to make you do what they want.

Sorry but parents are easy to blame here. Who should have been teaching those kids common sense! Shooting people like they saw in a video game proves they had no common sense.

Common sense is something you should be learning from a -very- young age. This has nothing to don with being able to control the kids.

I also blame parents for not taking an active role in their kids lives. They see pc's as the ultimate babysitter so they let their kids use the pc's for what ever - but the parents know little about the computers themselves.

I play Vice City and it does not make me want to shoot people or beat up hookers in real life. And that is because I learned common sense. I was taught to understand what reality is. I was taugh common sense.

99.9% of people are reasonable enough to distinguish games from reality and not start doing bad things. If you are already a bit loopy then a game might trigger something in your mind, however like Aven was saying, not enough sauce on your burger could have a similar effect on someone (crazy) and set them off in some way. "Crazy" people are affected by many influences in their lifes everyday, some of which never play games. Games are just something easy to blame the problem on.

"I see you just killed 20 people, do you play violent videogames by any chance?"

From a personal perspective, I would say that violent video games are - if nothing else - one of possibly many contributing factors in some cases of extreme violence. Not that it is the only one, but it certainly can be a factor.

Computer games will *not* on their own, drive people to violence. People get driven to violence by frustration, anger, envy, fear, hatred.

Computer games contribute to the possibility of actual violence in many different ways, each unique to the individual. There's the possiblity of developing the realisation/actualisation process in the mind, turning the mind's thoughts into a semi-real situation. Then there's the desensitisation towards violence, there's also the ability for the consequences of violence to seemingly be forgotten and dismissed. Then there's the idea that generally speaking violence doesn't get solved by more violent acts, it's fuelled by it's own byproducts - playing computer games could easily drive an unreasonable individual into a more mad and enraged (possibly) psychotic.

All of these things won't do anything to someone who can tell what is real and what isn't - but fear, hatred and emotions in general have great power in their ability to confuse the mind (anyone ever been in love, depending on the relationship, it can get very confusing!).

My biggest problem, is I've never played a game where violence has had any *actual* consequences. People never see the horror that is murder (even in a good vs. evil situation). In some ways, I'm glad that fatally wounded soldiers don't beg and plead for their life, or say a final prayer or wish for their loved ones. Computer games tend to avoid the whole gravity of the concept of death.

In other ways, I wish someone would make a game like that as a wake up call to other developers to make them realise *exactly* what it is they are doing by simply solving every problem in a game with some clever way of murdering a portayal of a human being, or a living being in general.

p.s. I don't really mind violence in computer games, I guess I'm just bored/sick of it! What we really need to do is develop a better society so people don't feel such angst towards others.

p.p.s Nice quote JonathanKerr :)

quote:
Sorry but parents are easy to blame here. Who should have been teaching those kids common sense!

Common sense is something you should be learning from a -very- young age. This has nothing to don with being able to control the kids.

The only problem is that common sense is not very commmon.

I think you may have misconstrued my meaning though. This debate usually is represented by two sides: 1) - the Moral Minority who say 'Games are doing this to our kids!' and 2) Gamers who say 'Bullshit. It's the damn gun laws and bad parenting'. I don't really know if anyone gives a shit about these articles except gamers and parents/moral activists. Just as the moral activists point the finger at games, gamers easily point the finger back at parents -- it's a kneejerk reaction.

I probably didn't word it properly -- but you can only only teach someone common sense. I've found a lot of common sense comes from experience. Just because someones told you 'not to go and sleep with girls' (or drink too much or whatever) it doesn't mean that it won't happen. As kids, how many of us stopped what we weren't supposed to be doing when our parents walked in the room? Even though I dont have any kids yet, I can imagine parenting getting pretty tough when children hit their teens.

Most people have some degree of common sense (sometimes ;) ) but it's impossible to exercise it all the time. That's why mistakes happen. We'd be perfect otherwise. Of course, we're talking about shooting people here, so I suppose that my point doesn't count as much.

We'd have to look at what causes people to become unstable -- the Columbine killers were harrassed like nothing else, that's always gonna put your back up.' Then, they got served alcohol at 16yrs of age and the looseness of the US's gun laws made things all fall into place.

To Maitrek: As for game developer attitudinal changes towards violence, Hideo Kojima is one such developer. MGS2 enables you to go through the game with just the tranquilizer gun (M9) and actually rewards the player for less kills and less 'alerts'. Guns a-blazing is fun, but sneaky stealth is better.

quote:I'm glad that fatally wounded soldiers don't beg and plead for their life

The do in MGS2 - 'dont shoot'. Although I imagine that a more heartfelt pledge would be more harrowing.

quote:My biggest problem, is I've never played a game where violence has had any *actual* consequences. People never see the horror that is murder (even in a good vs. evil situation). In some ways, I'm glad that fatally wounded soldiers don't beg and plead for their life, or say a final prayer or wish for their loved ones. Computer games tend to avoid the whole gravity of the concept of death.

Imagine if for an ending in a game, you got a montage of shots of the funerals of all the people you killed in the game. Kids/wives/husbands weeping at funerals -- all in black and white and moving from place to place.

But I suppose the whole point of videogame violence is that it's supposed to be the 'last resort' (although this isn't emphasised enough) and thus, becomes the justification for violence (think Max Payne). Given how people view the world (based on their own principles of right and wrong), it's possible to justify nearly anything...including violence.

quote:Originally posted by JonathanKerr

This debate usually is represented by two sides: 1) - the Moral Minority who say 'Games are doing this to our kids!' and 2) Gamers who say 'Bullshit. It's the damn gun laws and bad parenting'.

I don't point the finger at the parents for being completly responsible, however even people with the lowest of morals should know its not right to kill. Even if these people were mentally unstable I still believe bad parenting would still have to be a main factor (among many factors, no doubt). If they were mentally unstable a good parent would see this and the incident would have never happened. If Sony, Take 2 and Rockstar never made GTA there is a good chance the incedent would have happened. Legal Gardians are required to provide a safe environment for their children, this includes ensuring their Physical and Mental Health. Someone mentally ill should not be expossed to violence (in this case games). Someone mentally ill shouldn't be allowed out in public untill they've been treated.

I don't blame the parents alone, there are definetly others factors but the other factors aren't being sued for $246 million.

As for game companies they have resposibilties as well. I hope the industry moves away from the violent games but unfortunitly humans are violent by nature and there are those who crave violence.

I rarely play violent games anymore, I have lost the taste for them. I still play Halo, Splinter Cell, Battlefield and CS but they're not that violent. I've only ever really played racing games being a car and dirt bike nut. For every Shooting/fighting game I buy, I buy 2-3 racing/simulatiom/sports games. The best level of any game of any genre in my opinion is the FBI level in Splinter Cell were you're not allowed to kill anybody, only knock them out otherwise it's game over. I would love to see more of this in games, Specifically FPS games.

I'm Glad to see some new arguements and perspectives raised in this topic. Not the same old Blame Game.

Please excuse the rant. This is a topic that has bugged me for a long time.

Everyone is making some good points but that doesn't solve the fact that.......

....Mario still makes me want to jump on all your heads.

Ooh my tormented mind, Get out you troublesome plumber!!

Hang on....is that a pipe over there? I might go jump in it....arghhhhhhhh!!!

I think Malus has had one too many magic mushrooms[:p]...

maybe he ate Toad....

I played DOAXBV and it made me want to go shopping and watch girls play volleyball.
So, you see it's all true. GAMES OWN YOU ALL!!!
CYer, Blitz

Our acceptance of violence is becomming less and less. I can remember 1970's stuff that would make my Mums hair turn white and today I just laugh. I suppose it gets down to what you can handle and how you handle it. Personaly I think violent movies/TV/Games are realy bb b boooooooring so I steer clear of them unless the violence is used to enhance the story eg Reservoir Dogs.

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Complete load of rambling crap to follow...
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quote:Given how people view the world (based on their own principles of right and wrong), it's possible to justify nearly anything...including violence.

Another interesting statement, that kind of leads me on to another 'beef' I have with computer games. The villains are often presented as having no justification for their violent behaviour, they are just 'evil' like some kind of demon manifestation. Developer's are, again, over-simplifying the concept of violence. I mean for example, in your average counter-terrorism game, at what point do you question the motivation of these religious extremists?

(for example say Al-Qaeda)
Do you ever think "Hrm - at one point, the USA funded these guys to fight against the invading Russian army, then we turned against them and deposed them from any power over a country that we handed to them, so why should I kill these terrorists when we infact betrayed them".

It never happens. The 'bad guys' have no motivation, have no reasons, they are simply 'bad' and must be punished by death. It's a very simple view of the cycle of violence.

Presenting this concept of "fundamentally evil" people that cannot be reasoned with seems a little pathetic. Plus it doesn't really make for a very interesting enemy.

Not every game is like this, but there aren't that many well defined villains that display realistic motivated behaviour. Again, it's just me getting annoyed with the simplistic nature of violence that games demonstrate. If we actually showed what violence and aggression was made up of, then we'd probably have less popular violent games, and violence would be less glorified (in general).

Again, just for the record, I'm not against violence in games, I'm just tired of seeing it everywhere in the same over-simplistic form. We keep saying 'games are for adults' and we aren't marketing them to kids -> but it's not like we make many 'adult' games.

quote:unfortun(ately) humans are violent by nature and there are those who crave violence.

There are 'interesting' statements coming from everywhere in this thread. I would be surprised if there are many people who actually 'crave' violence. Sure there are some nutcases that do, but the nature and context of that statement seems to imply that you believe that a large portion of gamers have violence issues.

For 99% of people, no matter what, there is always a difference between real life violence, and simple competition/survival of the fittest games in a fantasy/computer game. Even if the competition is represented via a simulated violent activity. Craving some form of competitive survivalist activity is due to the sedate nature of our lives and I don't think it's because we 'fundamentally crave violence'.
I believe that we fundamentally don't want to be trapped in this arsed-up 'system' (sorry for sounding like some angst ridden anarchist, I'm not, it's just a point I'm making) and that it doesn't supply everything that the human psyce desires.

I think the biggest problem with this computer game violence issue, is it takes away our perception of violence for what it is, and replaces it with this sedate, easy to accept view that does not challenge us, nor does it provoke us into dealing with our inevitable fear of the reality of violence.

Computer games aren't the only medium where this is done on a regular basis, but seeing as it's what we are talking about, I'll stay with it.

As far as I'm concerned, we (as a society) lost our ability to deal with the fear related to violence, and from that lack of fear-control, we cultivated paranoia which leads to people getting defensive and accusative and creating exactly the sort of atmosphere that leads to more animosity, hatred and inevitable violent behaviour.

If we confronted violence in all it's reality, and dealt with our fear of it, perhaps then we could understand it and learn to live in peace.

(/rant)

Alrighty, that's pretty much that. Back to chillin'...

Malus -> don't let anyone take away your right to jump on their heads, or get stuck like a cork in a plumbing pipe waist deep in human excrement ;)

MGS2 SPoilers.

I think that MGS2's villain 'Solidus Snake' was not over simplified -- he was kind of a grey area. He wanted to take Manhattan Island offline to break away from the control of the Patriots. The fact that we (the player) stood in the way was moot. He believed in the ends justifying the means.

Interesting point about Al Queda. Back to MGS series -- the first game of the MGS series dealt with 'what is passed on by our genes'. The 2nd dealt with 'what ISNT passed on by our genes and the control of information'. Now to my point - MGS3 deals with the idea of how peoples perception of our enemies change with time. It used to be Germans, then Russians and now it's Al Queda. As Maitrek said, it wasnt long ago when Iraq and Iran etc were 'friends of the west'.

How times change.

Personally I'm a fan of education over censorship.

Maitrek -- you would have enjoyed 'Bowling for Columbine' I take it?

quote:Originally posted by Blitz

I played DOAXBV and it made me want to go shopping and watch girls play volleyball.
So, you see it's all true. GAMES OWN YOU ALL!!!
CYer, Blitz

here you go then http://www.tecmoinc.com/store/bikinis.asp :D

i would absolutely hate to see a game that REALLY showed the extent of violence. someone crawling around with half their lower body hanging out pleading for forgiveness and the mercy of god, would really get to me. the only reason why i can manage to play violent games is because i have the ability to tell the difference between violence in real life and violence on a screen. i know the difference between what blood is in reall life and what a set of little squares powered by a certain heat (or wattage) is. adding in the whole psycholigical reprocussions of violence changes it from death to murder. that would raise even more problems.

that is the thing that i also hate about movies and games. villians without any story or feeling behind them. that is one reason why i thought that Knives from Trigun was a really good villian. he had a reason for what he was doing. it was little extreme, the point he took it to, but there was still a reason.

Maitrek and Mr. Kerr's comment about hating different enemies was interesting as well. i was born in Germany and moved over here when i was 2. all through school i recieved idiodic remarks from people (not just kids) about being a Nazi. it was good to see that even though i was born nearly 40 years after the main Nazi threat dispanded, people were still stupid enough to make comments like that. ah childhood memories. i think i'll go and find a gun now.

quote: As kids, how many of us stopped what we weren't supposed to be doing when our parents walked in the room?

lol. brought back a lot of memories. mum walked into my room when i was in year 9 and busted me with a hustler. said she never wanted to see that filth again. i have always kept to her word. she has never seen one again :p

meh, These things happen all the time, someone attempts to take someone to court, the violence argument comes around for another pass. Some old thing again.

Just remember that the case has been put forward, and will probably be summarily dismissed as most often happen in these situations. Anyone can attempt to have anything go to court, but most of these things are just dismissed on the spot. To me the funny thing is that it becomes news. For me it isn?t news until the case has been to court and won by a member of the ?moral? fringe.

?Member of the ?moral? fringe supported by lawyer desperate for publicity, make yet another bogus suit, that will be laughed out of court, in a desperate attempt to make society conform to their conservative moral and social views?

Just don?t cut it as news in my book.

Pantmonger

Maitrek: I phrased it wrong but I get your piont.

The thing is; GTA drive bys were inspired by real life -- not the other way around.

you gotta buy the DVD playback kit. kinda retarded hey?

yes...i think retarded is the word...[^]

I disagree. Consoles are for games...

... DVD players are for DVDs[:p].

Happy Camper hit it straight on. well ecept fo the DVD player part. i tend to use my PC more as it is nearly always in front of me.

I use my PC as well but my DVD player usually gets preference since its got the better sound system, Leather reclining chairs and Large Screen.

MS split the DVD unit from the Xbox because they wanted to give gamers the choice of buying something with the DVD software in it. PS2 launch suffered from gamers not being able to buy the PS2 for games because consumers where buying them for DVDs (hence the low software ratio attachment with the PS2 sales).

It's probably just a money making venture but I think it was a wise one. The demographic who buy the XBox probably already have a PS2 so why bother charging them for extra? Besides it could have pushed the price up more -- it's already got things other consoles dont have built into it. Mind you, the hardware in there is activated by the software in the remote pack, so perhaps I'm wrong.

yeah MS wanted to make sure that their console played games and that was it. they said that their market research showed that most people who were looking at the Xbox seriously, already had fairly decent home entertainment systems. they had dvd players, big tvs and good suround sound setups. thats why they pushed their full 5.1 sound and ability to hook up with all sorts of tv inputs (with the right cable package :()

You can play DVDs without the remote if you mod your Xbox.. but with the remote is much better.

Don't you have to buy the remote for the PS2 as well?

no. u just use the controller.

the XBox *does* come with DVD playing capabilities, but the only way to use it is to buy a DVD remote for. that is why it is retarded.

it is an obvious money making scheme, and it is a wise one too. Charge you for the DVD playing capabilities, but don't allow the consumer to use it unless they buy a remote control.

MS did not want people whom do not play DVD's to pay for the licensing codes required to do so. (To have the DVD logo and DVD playback license fees must be paid to the owners of such IP.)

The "dongle" that comes with the IR unit contains the codecs, and in purchasing it you are paying for the right (license) to play DVD movies.

It is not so much a money making scheme as a cost per unit reduction scheme.

Cheers,

Ross.

that is he same reason why TMPEG Mpeg Encoder (Tsunami) now costs money. it started out as a free app made by a guy as a self test. he released it for free, but the MPEG corp wanted royalties for using their codecs. he told them that he couldn't pay royalties when he was giving it away for free. i think you guess how the rest goes. if you are after an EXCELLENT MPEG encoder though, this is the one.

i saw it last night,
and i gotta say that the japanese must be SUPER stressed, because their blood pressure has to be insanely high to pump that much blood

Very good movie which pushed all my buttons. I didn't like the switch to B & W during the House of Blue Leaves fight - I hear that the Japanese version is full colour all the way through that one (or apparently for their DVD cut). I liked the brutality of the fights which appealled to my bloodlust (psycho!) but my only grief is that it really feels like half a movie, with no real closure. Even Reloaded and the LOTRs movies had better conclusions to them. The twist at the end was nice tho'. Don't think anyone really saw it coming.

The chronological placement of scenes is very Tarantino and I look forward to the second part which is supposed to have more witty bits in it. Soundtrack was pretty cool, but a bit jarring. Loved the tune on the motorbike - the same one from the trailer.

The House of Blue Leaves (now referred to as HoBL) is a great set piece but I think I like the burly brawl of Reloaded that little bit better. Even tho' the CGI detracted from the scene, I liked the camera shots and the crazy 'spectacularness' of it. But as someone else mentioned, Reloaded and Kill Bill are two very different kettle of fish. KB is unashamedly revelling in it's own brazeness -- it's Tarantino's film the way he wants it done. Fine by me.

It was kinda easy to spot Uma's stunt double at times (apparently the same double for Lucy Lawless' Xena) -- she's a little bulkier in the ass than Uma's frame allows.

Costumes and sets were amazing - and those swords! Oh. My. God.

Great flick - 8.5/10. Can't wait for the second part.

Aven -- are you a fluent Japanese speaker?

heh, saw some of it with a fluent japanese speaker, and while my japanese is not so good, could understand a lot of what Lucy Lui said and her japanese acent seems as grating as mine....

each seat on the plane having space for a samurai sword was about my favourit.... and the fight stopping for the kid to come home from school...

Geezus! I got a shock when I saw the topic of this thread... I thought there must be a terribly upset game worker out there in a certain area of Melbourne ;)

Well not being a fluent Japanese speaking person I really couldn't give a hoot if its the wrong dialect Lucy is speaking. [:P]

As for the film, I thought it was great, just the right blend of violence and violence. [:)]

My favourite part..maybe the fight in the blue leaves joint or when Uma is talking to the french bird in the trunk of the car.

Out of curiosity does this film officially have the highest count of mutilated body parts?

alright i was thinking of giving it a full review style thing in my original post, but i didn't for some reason. i will do one now.

Pros.

. Violence
. Awesome style. the 60s theming with the music and design worked really well. considering that it had a large part set in Japan, they often have 60s influence with their music, so i had a massive grin on my face :) i thought that the best music though came courtisy from when O-Ren and her gang was walking into HoBL.
. The limbs. soooooooo damn many.
. The fight scenes were quite good. a good mix of serious fighting and blantently obvious wire work. once again this helped to give it that 60s feel.
. More violence.
. The Camera Angles. Tarantino did well in using a lot of cool camera angles when he could have quite easily have just used all the ones that a popular now (bullet cam, and the slow pan into a quick one in the space of 1/10 of a second). The history of O-Ren had some sweet angles in it. Infact that whole scene was just brilliant.
. Have i mentioned the violence and limbs yet?
. Tarantino's unique way of doing a really serious part, and then making you smile at the end because of his unique sense of black humor.
. His shock ability. i wanted to kill that prick of a surgin (i could use more appropriate words, but probably shouldn't) in the hospital scene.
. It was a hell of a lot better than Jackie Brown. there wasn't any crap where a character would walk into a room, stand there for 10mins doing NOTHING (with camera focused squarely on them), and then just walk off. the pacing was great.
. The Katanas and costumes were very cool. i really hope that they release a replica of Hattori's katana :).
. And it of course has Chiaki Kuriyama in it. not quite as psychotic as in Battle Royale (if you have not seen this film then buy a copy off ebay), but still very disturbing. the giggling part just made me feel uneasy.
. And of course, the violence :D.

Cons.

. Yeah, the ending was a little abrupt. that could have been to keep up with it's 'in your face' style though.
. The stunt double for Uma was very obvious. they didnt even try. hair ALWAYS covering every inch of her face. still the fight scenes were cool, so this is forgivable.
. Release part 2 damn it.

I don't by any means, mean that Lucy Liu was crap, i just said that Uma Thurman sounded better. i can sympathise with her completely. she knows what to say, and how to say it, but she is afraid of pronuncing it incorrectly, so she holds off and ends up pronouncing it incorrectly anyway. My Japanese is FAR (so very far) from being fluent, so i do feel for her. i always did the same thing in Japanese class. her american accent didn't help out too much either, as americans roll their vowels too much. i easily thought it was her best role to date though.

Overall i would give it 9/10, with a quote along the lines of,

'Just go and see it.'

quote:
i wanted to kill that prick of a surgin (i could use more appropriate words, but probably shouldn't) in the hospital scene.

His name was Buck. He was there to fuck. Crass but funny.

He may not have fucked, but he did get fucked (poetic justice in full effect).

I've been whistling that damn tune all the time too.

Saw it last night. Loved it!!
Saw brutal but soo fun!
The score was good and I liked the way it was shot. Interesting set of characters aswell.
I do agree that it didnt feel like it had much closure.
When I saw the "charlie brown" guy, I thought the the same thing and when the guy said it on the film I laughed. All the guys who were moaning after they had been hurt in the HoBL scene was funny. As for a fav scene, it was probably when the lady cut out the lights and all you could see was the silihouttes fighting agianst the blue backdrop.
Looking forward to volume2.

*me wants a samurai sword*

i just wished that Charlie Brown's wife slipped at the end of the HoBL scene. i was waiting, and it didn't happen :(

there are a few Katanas available through ebay... pity customs will probably hold them up. i have never ordered a weapon (real or replica), but i know that customs does not like it. i wanted to get a Shi replica Naginata a few years back, but it wasn't available outside of the states.

Yes yes i too loved the film, a mate of mine at school on the other hand thought that Uma did not potray the fighting style of a true samurai. To that i say " ur full of s***, how can u say that when ur only reference to samurai is bloody kenshin and that shite in the animatrix. On top of that, the last time i checked, there are no real samurai's left except for schools who practice the art, but not the act".

Yeh i got a little pissed at her comments because i thought Uma was great, the sakki was great and that whole meifumado thing they had going on in the film was great as well. ( I know my samurai and this holds up nicely in our modern pop culture, along with the classics seven samurai and lonewolf and cub).

One thing i find troubling though is the rumor that they might be taking the movie off the cinemas as it's rated the most violent film in cinema history. If this happens then what's gonna happen when they release the 2nd?

At the cinemas down here, they have people at the entrance to the theaters(right at the door) playing the film, to stop under agers from getting in.

Sucks to be young I say :)

thats a good thing. im sick of going to movies and having little shits there that just wont shut the hell up. thats the reason why i dont go to movie marathons any more. why would you want to bring your pajamas and a sleeping bag to it? morons i tells ya, morons.

another thing that i remembered about KB that made me laugh, was the dagger that O-Ren and GoGo use. it had the typical Japanese girl strap dangling off it ^_^. the only way that could have been better is if were to have Hello Kitty on it.

Sho-nuff, just ignore her. kenshin may be very good, but it is still anime and far from being 'true' to the Samurai heritage. Animatrix... last i knew that was far from being real, or can it get away with it because it is in the matrix and it is meant to be false? the Lonewolf and Cub movies are quite cool though ( i have only seen a couple of them though).

Alot of people seem to really love this flick, but I personally thought it sucked. I don't necessarily dislike Tarantino, I can certainly see what he's trying to do, but there is a difference between paying 'homage' to movies that you like, and flat out copying scenes/shots from them.

Also, what *happened* in Kill Bill? There was alot of ranting about some character development, and two bitches got killed and plenty of blood was shed in the mean time...it seemed to drag on and on when it's just a very VERY basic revenge story. And I could see the 'twist' at the end coming from a mile away.

It did some things right, Wo Ping Yuen (?) did his usual good job of fight choreography, but the fact that Uma could never be seen executing a single stunt was a bit dismal.

My major problem with the flick is that the black humour is very much lost on me. I can never figure out whether Tarantino is just simply being ridiculous about his portrayal of violence, or if he's trying to make some message about the ridiculousness of violence. I can't really make my mind up about how to approach these films, they seem to take themselves so seriously sometimes, and then at other times they take themselves as a complete joke.

When I watch a movie I usually expect either to just sit back, switch off, and watch a mentally devoid 100 minute long hollywood dumbass fest, or sit back turn the brain on, and watch a reasonably clever story-telling experience with meaning, allegory and depth. When a movie can't seem to take itself either seriously or not, I just struggle to get into a mood for it.

The start of the movie was great, I really thought it was going to go places and explore some dark themes, I guess I was let down by the rest of it.

i think that tarantino does try to have messages in his violent tellings, and that is why he tries to take it more seriously. then however, critics have a shot about the level of violence in his movies, so i think he makes it more cartoony to keep them happy/quiet. that may just be his way though, he is a very goofy guy.

i may be too generous with this movie because Jackie Brown has such crap, and this returned him to his more trusted roots.

i do honestly feel that you are being a little harsh about it Maitrek, but thats cool. you didn't really like it, and when you spend $15 to watch something, you want something you will enjoy.

yes, unfortunately hollywood has its way of making very witless movies, but where do you go then? european movies are all about some woman who cant find love or some guy coming to grips with his sexuality. as soon as hollywood does that, they are criticised and called unoriginal. go for asian cinema, and you usually end up with movies that are too in depth for most people. most people really dont want to think when they watch a film, so this aims at that. the most difficult part is tarantino's usual non chronologically corret order of storry telling. if people would just sit down and wtach it without asking qustions, they would realise that it is really simple to follow. i found it to be a really good light entertainment film. the only serious thing about it is the violence, which i still found to be highly cartoony. then again, i find most violence to be cartoony.

I can generally enjoy crap movies, as long as they don't take themselves seriously. I can easily laugh with them (or at them) and just try and have 'fun'. Hell, I even managed to sit through Bulletproof Monk and get a few laughs and a bit of enjoyment from it - and that was Yun Fat Chow's worst ever movie by far.

There were some things I did like about Kill Bill - the scene in the snow in the garden was excellent, up until the 'Hannibal'-esque scalping of Oren Ishii. As I said the start was good as well. The use of swords instead of guns is always a good 'stylistic' choice of violent material. There's plenty of history and respect placed upon the ol' sword, and it generally makes for a more interesting show than a gun fight (except in the case of John Woo's old Hong Kong flicks).

One thing I don't really like about Tarantino is his disjoint approach to time in films. He does alot of out-of-sequence flashbacks, and tells bits of the main journey out-of-sequence. Is this a bad thing? Not entirely - it can be grating - but it just seems indulgent and in some ways, unnecessary. It seems he can't keep intrigue and mystery in his movies without cutting up the story into fragments and showing them in an odd order.

I'm really not sure whether the anime/cartoon style telling of Oren's past was a shit-hot decision either. Obviously it's part of the Tarantino style of story telling, but when I was sitting in a cinema, and the movie switched into cartoon mode, it threw me quite a bit. It's obviously visually out of place, and Oren's past seemed out of place and completely irrelevant as well. Okay, they built up Oren's character, but did it mean shit? Aside from learning about her past she spoke a couple of lines during the main "journey" parts of the movie. The movie could have easily had that entire section cut out, and I probably wouldn't have cared. It just seemed like an excuse to show some some more violence.

I guess I'm just bored of violence :) Tarantino goes out of his way to highlight the violent nature of us, but I don't think he executes it quite right for me.

I still have a measure of respect for Tarantino, but I'd definitely like to see him try to use his own original shots and scenes instead of copying other directors previous efforts. He also needs to stop wasting so much film on things that aren't entirely pertinent to the rest of the flick.

you are right about O-Ren's past being fairly irrelevent, except to show that she was a really cold hearted bitch. i thought that the diner with the Yakuza bosses did show that better, especially since she was very disrespectful when she cut his head off and then didn't clean the Katana before sheathing it.

i also don't mind Tarantino's arse about face way of telling a story. makes it a little more interesting.

don't worry though, i think that the Matrix movies are very overated. we all have different tastes. that is what makes us unique.

Yeah I just added my 2 cents - too many glowing reports for one thread :)

Saw it on the weekend. The action was great, but I just got a bit bored of it after a while. The directing was nice (there was a part where the camera panned for 10 minutes without a cut), and the pacing was good too.. But Uma's character just seemed to kick a lot of ass, and didn't seem vulnerable whatsoever. She was like a female superman, and no matter what was thrown at her, you knew she was going to make it through. I didn't feel any sense of urgency or danger. The final fight with O-Ren felt so anti-climatic since it came right after the House of Blue Leaves massacre. The story was pretty thin, and like Maitrek said, it's pretty much a basic revenge movie. A better story would have propelled and give better purpose to all that action.. at least something more interesting than having people on a list to kill, then going out and killing them!
Anyway, it's a movie where you either loved it or just thought 'meh!'. [:)]

(There was this bit in the trailer which didn't appear in the movie. I'm guessing it'll show up in part 2. Uma was fighting some guy with a white beard who somersaulted and landed on her sword, then did a flip and kicked her in the face.)

My movie-of-the-year currently goes to Pirates of the Carribean. That movie was hilarious, and the acting and sets were awesome. [:)]

i haven't seen Carribean yet :( i wanted to, but none of my friends want to see it (LotR all over again).

i also thought that LXG was a rather good movie, but that is either a love or a hate movie. no real in betweens.

haven't seen the italian job yet. i'm not expecting a story though, just cool car chases :D

I'm going to have to be a bit 'lame' by some people's standards and say that I thought Matrix : Reloaded was the best film so far this year...but I reckon Return of the King, or Revolutions will most likely take the crown for best movie of the year for me.

Pirates of the Carribean was great, Johnny Depp was freakishly good in that role, he's been very average in some other recent movies.

i have a playstation 2 with grand tourismo 3.

Xbox - Halo - Probably change to Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic once I get it.

yeh...Knights of the Old Republic looks sick

PSOne and Ps2 although my ps2 just died one me,.. only 1 month out of warranty,.. so sony lost a few points in my oppinion,.. time to buy an xbox.

Massive fan of all RPG's , final fantasies, Baldurs Gate : Dark Alliance rocks too,.. got a few fighters eg dead or alive series, tekken series etc,..
all of the Gran Tourismo series,.. all of the resident evils and parasite Eve series,.. also a quite rare RPG called Koudelka which was a pretty dark / evil but wayyyyyyyyyy to easy rpg,. took like 8 hours to finish after i brought it [:(]....

the list goes on... i spend too much time playing games damnit...

I own the mighty triumvirate plus the GBA(but not SP...yet) because I'm a gaming keeno.

Im still a bit fan of epic rpgs and survival horror, so the last game I played that I realy liked was The resident evil remake on Game Cube, But Silent Hill 2 on PS2 was also fun.

Pantmonger

as for me, I have a GameCube with:

Metroid Prime - very good game for its genre but not my cup of tea
Ty the Tassie Tiger - wicked game but a bit kiddie and easy
Super Smash Bros - need I say more
Lost Kingdoms - good game, too dark and dreary for my liking
Starfox Adventures - wicked game
Enter the Matrix - too easy on easy, too hard on anything else
Kelly Slater's Pro Surfer - addictive
Rogue Squadron II - cant remember which one

i might look at getting grantourismo4 for ps2.

Games I currently have on Xbox:
Halo
Tom Clacy's Ghost Recon
Dead to Rights
Tom Clacy's Splinter Cell
The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind
Dead or Alive 3
NFL Fever 2003
Jet Set Radio Future
Mx Superfly
Sega GT 2002
Wreckless: The Yakuza Missions
RalliSport Challenge
Project Gotham Racing
Midtown Madness 3

Games I plan to get when released:
Star Wars KOTOR
GTA double pack
Sniper Elite
Halo 2
Fable

i own an xbox with the following

Halo (awesome)
Jet Set Radio Future (one of the best games evaaa. awesome style)
DOA Xtreme Beach Volleyball (for the gameplay... really :) )
DOA 3
Project Gotham
Shenmue 2
Gun Valkyrie

would like to get Knights of the Old Republic, but i will get the PC version instead. I love RPGs and FPS'. i will give any game a go if it looks or sounds promising though.

also own a GBA:SP, but i dont know if that really counts as a console.

am I the only one here with a GameCube???

quote:Originally posted by Kane

am I the only one here with a GameCube???

No, if you noticed I said I had the lot, got the Game cube second incase you where curious.

Pantmonger

Gamecube + zelda + metroid + monkey ball + mario sunshine + some less cool games.

Also have a dreamcast, but i could never find decent games for the thing ... :(

cheers

um, i own one n64 game and one playstation game, but no consoles :) (do own about 5 pc games though, and finially found a combination of difficulty setting on 'dark reign2' to make it difficult)

PS2 - MGS2, Ico, Onimusha, THPS3, Baldur's Gate:DA
Xbox - JSRF, Halo, Shenmue 2

Wanna pick up an NGC when the price drops like it has overseas: First up - Viewtiful Joe

Still got my old Megadrive around at my parents house too, plus a few others that dont work anymore.

What did you think of Shenmue 2 Aven? I personally loved it -- I wish there were *real* confirmation on the making of the third one. Apparently the Sega restructuring means that Yu Suzuki's team is working on the VF series as well as Shenmue and other established franchises. Or something.

i loved it. then again i am a massive fan of Sega. i thought that Microsoft and Sega did a great job releasing it with the dvd movie for the first game. that way people who hadnt played Shenmue could know what was going on. unfortunately i never got to complete Shenmue as i had to return my friend's Dreamcast to him (one of the best consoles ever). the only way it could really be improved is that it has a lot of interaction and it is a living world, yet it is so linear. the story is really good in it though, so that makes it okay.

i also forgot to mention that i own Panzer Dragoon Orta. damn hard game. awesome graphics though :D

It would have been nice to have an option of playing through the game disc in Japanese like how the movie could be watched in subtitles. The voice acting in the game was inconsistent at best and was probably the worst part of the game. Some characters like Lishao Tao were done very well, I thought.

overall i thought that the voice acting wast that bad. it wasnt that great either, but compared to a lot of other games it was gold. just look at the early Resident Evils :D, Vampire: Masquerade, and Never Winter Nights. Lady Aeribeth had to have THE single worst voice i have EVER heard voice acted. i would have loved to have seen an option to have it Japanese dubbed though, especially if it would have had WAY off lip synching :p.

Try www.burn.com.au, they stock import versions of most games. (If they don't have it in stock already though, forget about it, i've been waiting for animal crossing fomr 2 months already)

I had a news item on this.. [url="http://www.sumea.com.au/snews.asp?news=319&related=Industry"]Gameplanet Store[/url].

there is no reason why emulation should be illegal,
it's just the trade of rom versions of commercial games that are obviously a case of software piracy.

I think its a funny issue(not ha ha), For the most part I can see why having emulated versions of old games that no longer sell anymore, are no longer turning their creators a buck, can be seen as harmless, and for the most part is. But what it comes down to in the end is, someone (or a group of someone?s) created the game, they own it and everything to do with it, its does not belong to the public. So if they decide for what ever reason to keep it to themselves and not make a free public version, then that?s their business. I think that any law that changed that would be infringing on their copyright in a big way, and I am so not cool with that.

Pantmonger

I would say that there should be some kind of limit on how new-a-piece of hardware you can emulate should be. Emulating old hardware to play old games is pretty much okay in my books, but I always feel that a true (rich) gamer makes it his own responsibility to pay for what he plays (and the hardware to play it).

The whole industry would probably be alot cheaper and more competitive if people had this kind of attitude. :)

Nintendo, Sega, Capcom etc obviously hate emulation because old games from the 16bit console era can still make them money. I generally don't like it when they repackage old games, slap some retro tag on them, and ship them off on GBA for a price that I consider well overcharged. These games have had their run, made their profits, and are *old*.
When the PSP or nextgen Gameboy arrives, the hardware of which supercedes PSX etc so that 16bit titles can't be rehashed anymore, I'm hoping that those companies have a bit of heart and release them for free distribution, much like a lot of companies do for their 8bit (C64, Spectrum, Amstrad) game titles.

I dunno why certain companies are so tight about their old games. They should take a leaf out of [url="http://www.ausgamers.com/?news=1898910"]Illusion's[/url] book.. [;)]

Nintendo rehashing their SNES titles is a very good example of why a company should NOT make their games available. There are plenty of people who will buy those games because they are still up to scratch (by GBA standards at least).

Put up any arguments you like, but most of these developers/publishers know what they've got - almost complete games waiting to be rehashed (even Blizzard are getting in on the act).

And the cycle keep going as each new platform comes out (just look at the PSOne -> N-Gage craze starting up).

cheers

I think the games that ran on consoles a few years ago, PS1, N64 etc will be able to run on hand helds in a few years time, so there still is incentive for companies to hold onto their source code and game assets. Plus there is a market on these new hand held games to be able to play the classics.

Yes. Your playing a commercial game without paying for it.

Another use for emulators is to develop you own games. I've used GBA emulators and now I'm getting s flash kit to run my programs on the actual hardware. So its not the emulators that should be illegal but just the commercial roms.

Awf, that's right on the money :)

i'd rather play on a console anyday. roms always seem dodgy qwuality and are terrible to play with a keyboard. i bought a cheep joypad to play some snes roms, and then game up anyway and went back to the real thing. bugger this emu rubbish, gimme a tv and a comfy chair.

You could buy a [system name here] controller to USB converter from somewhere like liksang... but it would probably cost you more than a [system name here] from the trading post. :D

cheers

but they still look better on a big tv with beefy speakers and from a comfy chair. you're up too close to the pc screen to enjoy them at their propper resolutions. and it's just not confortable to play a console with a joypad at a desk.

that is the main thing that makes emulation crappy. PC gamepads are either crap or they break very easily. thats also the reason why a lot of console games arent ported to a PC. i would love to have a decent high res fighting game on my PC. my computer sits 2 feet from my bed so comfort isnt THAT big a deal. as for buying a second hand console. they may be cheap, but the games... look at Chrono Trigger on the SNES on ebay. damn. i really wanted to buy a Saturn, but you can't play import games (Japanese)on it :( i am still kicking myself for selling my Genesis (Mega Drive) when i was younger.

i reckon itll die a quick death, but ive been wrong before...
personally i wouldnt touch it with a ten foot pole, but then ive never really been into portable gaming

additionally, one of penny arcade's latest covers the midnight launch

[url]http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2003-10-08[/url]

I won't get it, I would've, but some downright unfavourable reviews put me off...

I would've thought that it being a game system it would make putting games in and out easy and quick - not so. Also shoulder buttons should've been automatically in there, but they aren't. Also it has had poorish reviews as a phone, so no, I won't be getting one.

I think for the same amount of money I'd rather get a nice PSX system that will come out a bit later, or make my own TIVO like computer system.

if you saw their press release at E3, it was one of the most amaturish presentations i have ever seen. i dont think that they even expect it to do well. just something about making a mobile phone a gaming system doesnt sit well with me.

i actually bought a gba:sp today (just for final fantasy tactics advanced). the PSP may be a very nice contender when it comes out next year.

so to sum up. the ngage is something i wouldnt waste even 5 cents on.

Havent read any reviews or anything on it.
But I still wouldnt get it. As a phone it looks awkard to use and as a gaming system, well I'd rather get a GBA:SP

There'd be nothing wrong with a mobile phone gaming system in my idea, it would work well, if done well, unfortunately Nokia have stuffed it up majorly.

I don?t know about the whole game and phone thing myself, from my experience people are constantly out of power on their mobile phones just through standard use and neglect. Add games to the picture and whoops I?m un-contactable because I got bored and played games.

Pantmonger

If you're in Brissie, head to the city EB in Queen St Mall, as they have one on display. Kinda funky, but I played one level of Pandemonium and my thumbs were crampy. Wouldn't want to be playing it for longer than I did. Screen's larger than I thought, which is a bonus. But really... from my point of view, I'd be using it either as a games machine OR a mobile, not both. Just personal preference.

In the age of shrinking mobiles too, it's fairly big.

Nokia should just team up with Nintendo and cram a few phone components into a GBA SP.

Hmmm... alot of negative responses. The thing that got me interested in it was the multiplayer bluetooth capabilities but then again if I really wanted to play multiplayer thats what my Xbox, PC and Internet connection are for and if I were desperate Internet Cafes. However I would have like to have seen some decent competition for Nintendo in the portable gaming market.

"Nokia should just team up with Nintendo and cram a few phone components into a GBA SP"

They already tried that and failed. So they made the n-gauge instead :P. And nintendo now have teamed up with motorolla to do wireless (not mobile phone) gaming for the GBA
http://www.gamedev.net/info/news/FullStory.asp?StoryID=5521

CYer, Blitz

wow that IS interesting. in an E3 interview with Sigeru Miyamoto, he had great disaproval of Nokia making a mobile phone/handheld gaming device in one. he said that they should be kept as seperate components. it's amasing how money can change people's opinions though.

i definitely agree with Pantmonger's comment about battery power. i couln't see a mobile phone lasting too long when playing red faction on it.

its not that interesting, the only thing the Motorolla add-on will do is enable wireless multiplayer on your gameboy, _not_ make the gameboy a phone/handheld gaming device in one, such as the N-Gage which Miyomoto didn't like.

quote:Originally posted by Aven

he said that they should be kept as seperate components. it's amasing how money can change people's opinions though.

Yeah, looking on it now I agree that a gaming system and a phone should be different systems, and now I guess you can use both on a train etc :-)

Yeah I agree, phone these days have too much crap in them (do you really need a camera in a phone?), making them big and not fit in my pocket properly.

i want to upgrade my mobile, but i dont want to spend $600+ plus so that my phone can take photos and play games. the cameras are horible on them and the gaming systems dont seem much better.

the only thing that i wouldn't mind seeing is that when the PSP is released, it would be nice to have a memory stick slot so that you could listen to mp3s. that would just be usefull.

Yeah, a mobilephone mp3 player would be cool, and you'd know when you have a call even if you're listening to music :-)

Personally I don't agree that cameras should be on mobile phones, even if it will allow face to face communications, because it will allow people to take pictures that aren't so nice of other people. There's a lot of room there for misuse.

Taken from here [url]http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/33405.html[/url]
go there for the full story

"Figures from videogame retailers around the UK are showing an extremely low sell-through of Nokia's new N-Gage game deck in its launch week, with fewer than 500 units sold by the 6000 game stores polled by Chart-Track."

500 from 6000 stores how about them apples.
Pantmonger

the sales figures don't count mobile phone retailers though, however I doubt that they sold that many either.

Made me laugh. looks like i'm not the only person who thinks that it is a worthless piece of crap. the only question i now have is, have they learnt their lesson, and will they discontinue it?

Just think how much money they wasted. The cost of R&D must be huge and then there's the marketing campaign that was simular to the PS2 and Xbox before they were released.

go to www.penny-arcade.com they tear the n-gage to shreds.
You should go there anyway... comics are really funny and tell you the truth about the industry

The two things that the N-Gage had going for it was bluetooth, and that it's a mobile phone as well. They've lost/will lose the wireless advantage since GBA will have that soon, and the PSP will have it also. That leaves the phone capability. But who are Nokia targetting though? I don't think many parents would buy their children one, since it's so expensive compared to a GBA SP, and children (8-12) wouldn't need a mobile anyway, would they?... And younger adults, I would say, are a bit more tech savvy and have read all the reviews about the numerous problems (design, game titles) that the N-Gage has and wouldn't touch it with a stick.
Oh, and I got sick of Tomb Raider quite a long time ago. [;)]

i had an EDGE E3 DVD (unfortunately some bastard stole it :(), that showed the launch of the N-Gage (sooo many homosexual jokes could be made with that). they said that they were not aiming this thing at 'suzy 8 year old' (their wording, not mine), but at the more gaming savy audience. my question is, is that audience REALLY that stupid?

the main problem with it though, is that it was realeased at a really bad time. Nokia just released all their new mobile phone that have LCD screens and all their other crap, and then they try to flog this off straight after it. they should have released it at the same time as all their other phones, so that people would know the choice they had. plus the GBA and GBA:SP are out and have a great selection of games available for them (better then the N-Gage at least), plus Sony have anounced their PSP and there are another 5 or 6 handhelds in developement. they just timed it really badly.

and Souri, as bad as what Tomb Raider is, do you really want to play Tony Hawk on it either? that pretty much tells you the audience they were aiming for. 16 year old males with no hormone control, no brains, and parents with too much money :/

I think its important to look at the N-gage in a slightly different light to the PSP and GBA; Nokia are essentially introducing a new feature to their line up of phones.

The N-gage is really just the first. I'd say that for the next few years, most of Nokia's phones will be equipped with cameras, bluetooth and the same gaming capabilities as the N-gage.

Keeping this in mind, its easy to see what Nokia are thinking. Cameras and ringtones can only go so far and java games are pathetically limited. So, the N-gage is really a long term investment (in my opinion). But after the poor sales, Nokia might reconsider their position.

I wouldn't say Nokia launched at the wrong time; with so many handheld systems looking to launch soon, there is not really anything that could be done.

What baffles me, is that Nokia launched the a mobile phone like a console. Consoles sell well because you buy, plug in, and play. People buying phones are much more restricted by things like how good the phone is, whether it supports particular functions, whether they can get it on the right plan at the right price and whether they are already stuck in a contract...

Nokia would have expected mediocre sales at best.

Check out this thread on game dev courses in Australia:

[url]http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=652[/url]

"but apparently lack what employers are looking for in the work flow management and priority recognition areas".

That situation is probably the same with any occupation, not just game dev. IMO, its really something you can't directly teach in a course but could probably get as a side effect.

Example, I'm currently doing an advanced software engineering project in a team of 14 people. Basically, we have a client which the uni found for us, and we spend the whole year building a piece of software. There's no real guidance, we are left on our own to decide on how we will go about elliciting requirements, what SE model to follow etc. We're basically on our own. Put in a situation like that, I think i've learnt a lot about what happens in real life and have hopefully gained skills which employers are looking for (hopefully :| ), but I know people who have gotten through such projects as well who really didn't get much out of it, and just complained that there was too much work, no help etc. So really, what skills you get from a course is in some way reliant on what you put in.
Hope i'm making some sort of sense...

Yeah I know of this thread.

I just want to hear more of the examples you included in your reply.

Having done a Masters and been a lecturer at Uni I understand the process of self directed learning quite well.
I think its all very good to a degree but it isn't real world ( Profit margins economy of scale etc.) I have worked for a few games and multimedia developers and found the issues with workflow and autonomy a real burden when it came to getting small tasks finished on time. I also noted that creativity in all areas was stifled by the dreaded deadline. So I was asking if any students out there are given any guidelines when it comes to organizing there own workflow. Not strictly speaking ( Spreadsheets etc ).

When I was at Qantm we did have a few classes on time management, setting mile stones, how to lay it all out, how the timeframe of asset production needed to work and what to do if something goes wrong.

I think that a lot of the time this stuff just never gets done because most of us want to get on to the business of making stuff. This is why I am an advocate of there being a dedicated project manager who knows what they are doing, what is reasonable and how to deal with people when they are not pulling their weight, in short having true managerial and interpersonal skill.

Note: When I was at Qantm the course was made up of 3 parts, basicly Code / Art / Project Management.

Pantmogner

I'm a student at qut... the amount of game related stuff available there in their IT soft eng major is near nonexistant.

However there is a new subject i'm doing (we're ginuea pigs!! yay!!) which is like the quantm course... compressed into one subject. It be awsome... but only runs for 6 months

however if you're tricky, you can do a project of your own choice... i tried to make a game
as one... got good marks, but it's nothing great.

err... it's just another forum

But WHAT a forum!......
.....maybe....
CYer, Blitz

Yeah Yeah I now its a bloody forum,
I dont have the greatest stuff to make a website,
It is a start.
When I do have the stuff I will make a better one I will, but I dont!
So come on.

Im very interested in doing this competition, however I have absolutely no experience programming games. Im an intermediate C++ programmer, so I dont know if I will be able to participate.[V]

Hi, sounds like fun. Would like to find out more about whether the entry
must publish source code to it or not (I have my own game library/mini engine
that I'd probably want to use but that I don't want to publish). Happy to
publish the actual game code tho.

Role: Programmer

I'm still learning but could give it a go.

Role: Artist

Stu

Normally I would be up for this and all, but I'll have a boatload and then another boatload of work to do for Uni these coming weeks, then exams, and then the agdc, so I don't see any time for a competition. And then I want to work on my own projects if that is possible.

Pretty new to it all, but im keen to give it a shot!

Role: Artist

Sounds interesting, I'm in. [:)]

This is certainly 'interesting' news, there's definitely not much precedent for this kind of thing. However, I imagine the source code is intellectual property of Valve and it can only be used through license so anyone who cracked it and released it is in for a very assed up ride, and anyone who downloaded it would also technically be using it illegitemately (I'm pretty sure just d/l it would be a breach of licensing stuffs)

From a personal point of view - this is why I'm planning on setting up a secure (as possible) linux server for all the source code storage and network access for any collaborations I get myself into. Using Outlook is a bad idea.

I feel very sorry for Valve, it's a fairly harsh thing for a bunch of weenie crackers to do - but I guess Valve
a) didn't expect this sort of thing to happen and
b) were a little ignorant/naive.

yeah that is a bit of a kick in the ass.

But on an other note fuck that is a lot of posts, over 1200 now.

The source for Steam was in their as well as far as I know. The code will be very usefull for cheaters etc
But why would you keep your source on a computer connected to the internet, when everyone works in the same office?

From what I've read, it contains Valve's entire source tree. From Half Life 1, Counterstrike, to Half Life 2 (including that lip synching technology, all the licensed stuff like Havoks physics, radgametools), the new worldcraft, Team Fortress 2..

Damn. Thats disgusting.

It sounds like a coldy calculated attack.

Poor Valve. :(

holy crap.
i wouldnt want to be the guy sitting at or near that computer in at valve.

it's scary... but then again, i would like to read that source code
*getting tempted towards the dark side*

C'mon fess up, who here has it :) I bet a lot of people do.

all i'll say, is it's a damn good read :)

im guessing it all got taken down by the time i got around to finding out.

HL2 has been [url="http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=3568878"]delayed till April 2004[/url].. Argh! *shakes fist at hackers*

noooo!!!
:(

I've been saving cash to upgrade my comp specifically so that it'll run HL2 to kick arse standards.. Now I have to wait!!

:(

[url="http://halflife2.homelan.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11450"]..and things go from bad to worse[/url]!

quote:As most of you in IRC and on the forums already know, a pre-release version of Half-Life 2 has found its way onto Peer-to-peer, IRC, and web warez networks around the globe.

Valve have always been a community aware company, if it wasn't for Halflife then the mod scene would be relient on the quake 3 engine, not to mention CS wouldn't exist etc.

These ridiculous script kiddies who have no reguard for the industry need to be strung up in my opinion, now we all have to wait until next year for half life 2, argh the humanity !!!

April 2004!?!?
Those little bastards! I (along with millions of others) was looking to playing HL2
:(

I have to admit that hearing it was very bad news. But this sin't the first fps in recent times to have had it's code leaked when it was anounced to delayed (again). There was also UT2k3 (which was nearly thw hole game) and Doom3. I don't condem or support the act of releasing hacked pre-releases (nor will i dl it), but maybe game developers and publishers should stop hyping their games to such proportions and then delaying them by so much.

I have to admit that the anouncement of a slip until april 2004 was also rather frustrating, and that i am starting to lose a little faith in the game. I guess that i will just have to wait for Halo PC in the meantime (yes i own and have completed the xbox version).

Bah the delay is only for a few months, thats nothing. I've been waiting for Duke Nukem Forever for years. At least HL2 has current screens and movies, the only news about Duke lately is that the engine tech is complete.

I have absolutely no interest in reading the code whatsoever, just fyi.

I'm suprised how nonchalant some people are about this. This is very serious property theft - and I don't want to blow the situation out of proportion -> but it's not like this will be the last time it happens and it's hard to say what impact this will have on the game developer community if these actions by 'fans' become more common.

Secondly, from the point of view of a developer, this would be gut-wrenching, heart-breaking stuff. I've never worked in the industry, so I doubt I could understand how it feels, but I can sympathise. HL2 contains alot of very VERY evolutionary technology that has been carefully researched and crafted by number of very knowledgeable people in various fields, to some of those people it would be like their magnum opus. Although I'm all for sharing of knowledge, fiddling with a final refined product is way beyond ethical.

Think it tough having to wait another few months for half life 2?

Think how shit it must feel to be Valve having to work on it for another few months after probably a good twelve or so of 'crunch time'.

I'm with you Maitrek, Valve lost or is going to lose alot of money because of this moronic script kiddie.
Valve has always been a community minded company, modding owes alot to there open mindedness and hard work.

The reason they have to delay is not to penalise the likes of you Aven, its to rework alot of key elements of the code, elements that may have contained important pieces of info such as ....hmm I don't know, the copy protection?!

If they had released the game before the leak or now without any changes then everyone would most likely be able to use the leaked code to build perfect copies of the game, no flaws, no cracks, just the game without the areas that prevent piracy.

I regret having to wait til april for HL2 but by no means can anyone honestly have an issue with Valve for this, if you don't like waiting for it go find the fool who released it and take it out on him.

I just hope Valve can bounce back from this, the community would suffer alot if they didn't.

I've been reading some of the forums of Half Life 2 websites to keep up to date with what's going on.. and the mentality of some of the HL2 fans is quite confusing. Here we have the hacker who claims that "Valve lied to us, the game isn't complete", and then goes on to release the source, and beta - which in itself is so absurdley worse that it grossly overshadows whatever argument he's trying to give. Then there's the community flack on Valve because the beta apparently has some scripted parts (soldier kicking down a door as seen in the E3 demo), which contradicts what Gabe said at E3 that there are no scripted events. The point is, why are they even judging a game on a beta release that was stolen from a developer.

when it comes out it comes out. even when it comes out i probably wont get around to seeing it for a couple months.
i understand why they have delayed it and everyone should support that. it would be crazy to release a game with a fully leaked code, imagine the amount of hacks etc.

and its only april, thats not that long away at all. damn, dont they have anything better to do than bitch about having to wait a little time? they are creating what looks like will be a very good game for them to play.

/end rant lol

According to gamesindustry.biz, vavle still hasn't endorsed that april date.

I'd type it, but ... just read. http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?section_name=ret&aid=2387

cheers

Sounds fun. Still might have difficulty with ground rules for the programming, but perhaps if the challenge is simple enough then it will be as easy as "start from scratch" same as the artists?
CYer, Blitz

Sounds pretty fun. Could also be a good way for some of us unemployed/students to get some good stuff for a portfolio.

Stu

start from scratch might not work with programming... not unless alot of time was set aside before hand as "pre-programming"
maybe having the teams form, then a general version of the goal is released (so the programmers can develop their stuffs) so when the full goal is released then the artists and programmers have material to work with.

I love the idea of mini games. Nothing too complicated, and a big emphasis on gameplay and fun. Maybe we'll see some really ingenious game ideas as well [:)]

the problem is, do we allow for premade engines? which could unbalance things alot...
or do we give a starting period with a vague project description, so that everyone can make mini-engines for their games before the full challenge details are released?

What about games for mobile phones?

or for the GBA maybe, they require little programming, some art etc

Hmm, I'd prefer just to go with pc.
I don't know how many people have experience in programming on those platforms, it could be too restrictive... also some of us don't have the hardware for it.

That's what emulators are for, I wasn't expecting people to have all sorts of mobile phones...

Heck even I don't have a mobile, but I have still programmed stuff for it.

I just think it'll be a nice even level playing field if we are all to start from scratch to make a game in teams...

Two quick ideas to throw into the mix:

* make it a comp rule that you need to use a specific engine/lib (eg crystalspace) or choose one of several options
* look at making a "sumea comp engine" - there would be 1-2 independent code integrators, who come up with a spec
for the module interfaces (eg audio library subsystem, graphics subsystem, scripting system) - then each team
is assigned one of these modules, and is rated by judges on how well they implemented their module. This would
probably have to be done as a separate comp though (or maybe do this bit as a collaborative exercise first)

People seem to have alot of ideas about how we could do this, which is a good thing (I get afraid when people agree with me).
The problem is, no matter how we try and level the playing field... there's always going to be people at a disadvantage, from lack of experience with paticular harware or software... or the amount and reusability of pre-prepared code they have.

Here's my proposal
- Teams would consist of two to four people, no more than two programmers to a team (this is just cause I expect we're going to have a programmer shortage)

- The actual competition topic won't be decided until 3 weeks into the competition... only a vauge set of limitations and gidelines will exist till then (which will be true for the rest of the competition as well). This gives teams time to do their pre-development work (make a small engine, rough ideas, designing an art style and generic resources like fonts & lovely high-res crate textures [:D] )

- The competition would run for three months.

- Judging would be done by a selected impartial group who did not take part in the competition.

if you're wanting to take part... go here ( http://www.sumea.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=977 ) and say you are.

We need to figure out if we have enough people.

Holy crap. Thats a VERY interesting read. I certainly wouldn't be in a rush to sign a contract with terms like that.

I hope they find those "non-compete clauses" to be illegal...

I think their stupid for signing a contract like that.
Also who the hell comes up with a clause like that anyway? Its pretty rediculous

Sounds to me like it is an attempt to prevent poaching of employees.

I might be wrong.

Some of the well known developers here in Australia have an agreement where they won't poach staff from each other, and they are very diligent in sticking to it which is great.
The issue with this Ubisoft/EA battle sucks imo... sure the staff are to blame for signing a ridiculous employee contract binding them to a single company, but they should never be put in a position where they have to choose between having a job (and signing to those conditions) or being out on the street.
It seems to be a universal proplem in highly sort after industries where the general thought is everyone is dispensable and can be replaced very easily by the countless people trying to get in (especially artistic positions)... you either accept our terms (however ridiculous) or you don't have a job.

I'd be interested in finding out the roles those 5 employees had at Ubisoft. In seven years that Ubisfot had that clause, this time it was worth taking action? The artwork in Splinter Cell was nice, but I'm sure Ubisoft could replace the employees if the people who left were artists. Programmers? Well, Splinter Cell ran off a next gen Unreal Engine. I'm not sure how much of a set back it is from losing some programmers working with that, but I'm guessing it would be much less than if they had their own engine..
But yeh, I totally agree. A clause like this is absolutely absurd. If you wanted to leave Ubisoft on your own accord (you weren't poached at all), you'd still have to wait an entire year before you were allowed to work for anyone else in the local industry. A clause like that doesn't do anyone any good.

According to a news item at gamasutra, Ubisoft have won the court case.

That sucks big time.
Well I suppose the moral is, "read what you sign"

Pantmogner

Anyone who signed that contract deserves pretty much what they get...I mean, they are either prepared to sacrifice their freedom or they aren't. If they sign away that freedom to leave the job without consequence, then they need to be prepared to commit to that choice.

(sorry - I'm a bit of a hard-liner sometimes).

However, I do sympathise with them (the employees), when there is so many people knocking on the door to get into some of these jobs, sometimes having a s****y job contract is better than no contract at all. Perhaps they should seek a better industry :(

There is no doubt that the computer games developing industry is a very hard task-master, and a job in the industry would be right up there with the 'suckiest jobs in the world' if it weren't for other perks.

This is probably more damaging to Ubisoft in the long run. Knowing that Ubisoft can do this to you would sure turn off some talented potential employees, who'd likely go straight to EA instead, rather than contend with this potential mess in the future.

I remember reading in one of those articles that they had never enforced that clause before. What concernes me is that so many people who (presumably) read their contracts agreed to the term... were they all verbally reassured or did they just not read it through?

"Just sign here.... Now." :)

I mean if they didn't enforce those clauses before doesn't that mean that you can'e enforce them now?

I think that's what the rule is with copyright / trademark infringement, if you don't sue once you can't anymore.

Yeah, check your contracts guys.

I am getting pretty slick with it... Ive had twelve or so contracts in the last six years. Some of these contracts are not legally binding because they have illegal clauses. One of my favourites signed away all previous agreements with the company... it was cool!

It doesnt cost you much to get a lawyer to check over them just to make sure.

err... site down!
either that or check the link

HEhe ill definately buy that FF:Advent children [:)]

SC 2 and DoA3 are pretty even for me. They're unique enough that I'm not going to judge them on features that are lacking in one but present in the other. However my preference is with SC 2 and thats really only becuase I've had DOA3 for nearly a year and SC 2 is still new. Either way they're must have games to me, I've been a fan of both since I played it on dreamcast.

too ture,
They are both must have games.

I'm just thinking maybe the hype over SC2 was a bit much, Anyway I can't wait to play more and get a few more hours into it and then see what I think.

DoA3 has better boob physics, so it's obviously the better game!
CYer, Blitz

Blitz: Using that logic, DOA: Xtreme Beach Volleyball must be the greatest game ever :P

Getting back on topic... I've never really thought about comparing the two games as they do play quite differently. Visually, DOA3 probably does have the edge (especially if you look at the faces on the characters in SC2, they just don't look right), but I can't really decide which one I like better in gameplay terms. Both are definately worth getting though.

DOAXBV is the best game ever....
CYer, Blitz

I've had limited experience with DOA3, but I've had lots with the previous incarnations of the series to know that the game rewards button mashing on a scale unseen in fighting games.

Soul Calibur does to an extent as well (as does Tekken) but not like DOA series does.

General opinion at the moment is that the first SC was so good that it left very little room for improvement.

I know I find the DOA character designs uninspiring. SC designs are much more interesting, even if some of the new characters in the sequel are just old characters in new clothing.

Soul Calibur has more depth in gameplay than DOA, features such as delayed moves, GI(guard impact), etc. It depends on if ur a hardcore fighting games fan or not i guess, I've been playing Tekken for nearly 5 years now, as well as a bit of VF and SC lately.. DOA really has nothing on the 3 aforementioned titles in terms of deep gameplay.. but i guess boobs and masher friendliness is also important. :D

Jono: I would have to that the character design in DoA 3 is much better then CS 2, I really hate the look of the character in CS 2 none of them cry out I look cool use me. I did find that DoA 3 did reward button mashing when I first played it, but now I open cans on button mashing player so the problem isn't that big. Button mashing win are only bad when the better play gets beaten from it more times then not. And don't get this with DoA3 or CS2.

TequilaBomber: I don't think you have play that much DoA3 both these features are in DoA3 but not only these look at the environment in DoA3 they are interactive, from trees, slipping on ice, getting hit but coconuts, using walls in other object to do move from. Were CS2 has there level edges, wall and ground (which are all in DoA3).
I'm also a hard core fighting game fan, from the time of Street fighter 2 (no no before that I had a few amiga fighting game I play a hell of a lot.)

Anyway, I have been playing CS2 more and I'm find that the two games are very different, CS2 had a very attack, defend, attack, defend feel to it. Were DoA3 is more attack, counter, attack, counter. Which make DoA3 has more flow or anyway a different kind of flow. So now it comes more down to the type of mood we are in to which one we will play.

quote:Originally posted by Doord

Jono: I would have to that the character design in DoA 3 is much better then CS 2, I really hate the look of the character in CS 2 none of them cry out I look cool use me. I did find that DoA 3 did reward button mashing when I first played it, but now I open cans on button mashing player so the problem isn't that big. Button mashing win are only bad when the better play gets beaten from it more times then not. And don't get this with DoA3 or CS2.

I find the designs of DOA3 very generic. The costumes are well detailed but so many of the designs (not models) seem tokenish. None of them break new ground and like many fighting games before it, they have the typical:

Old man = Gen Fu
Cool black dude = Zack
Hot chicks = Tina, Ayame etc...
Wrestler/Fat guy = Bass
Bruce Lee dude = Jan Lee

The thing is - so many other games also have these designs, but do them better. While DOA3 look techinically very impressive, they lack personality. Compare the originality of designs in SC with say, Ivy (cool whip sword), Voldo - weird but cool, Nightmare and Astaroth. Personally I find Mitsurugi very well done. Not as impressive technically, but nicer design.

To me, DOA3 designs have too much emphasis on 'sexiness'. These guys look like lovers, not fighters.

quote:TequilaBomber: I don't think you have play that much DoA3 both these features are in DoA3 but not only these look at the environment in DoA3 they are interactive, from trees, slipping on ice, getting hit but coconuts, using walls in other object to do move from. Were CS2 has there level edges, wall and ground (which are all in DoA3).

These features have all been done before DOA3. Virtua Fighter 3 did the whole 'undulating terrain, high and low areas, interactive environments' thing before any other 3d fighter. It's proof that these are gimmicky -- VF4 has gone back to simpler arenas to get that fighting game purity. While using the terrain to your advantage is an aspect of fighting games, I believe the emphasis should be on the fighters themselves. Of course, the comparison is between SC2 and DOA3, I guess.

quote:I'm also a hard core fighting game fan, from the time of Street fighter 2

Aren't we all?

I find the DOA games to have an easier learning curve which in the end prohibits the amount of depth you can get once you've scratched past the initial apparent surface. I think the depth of such games like SF2/3 (Shoryuken.com), Tekken (Zaibatsu) and VF4 (see Japan for religious following -- I cant remember the main site for fans) is reflected in their communities. Check those places out to see what real fighting game nuts are capable of.

Although this is off topic; for me 2d fighting is epitomised by the Streetfighter 3 series (old school combo mechanics with new school additions) and 3d is epitomised (depth wise) by VF4 Evolution.

I will agree with you that SC2 has not advanced enough considering how long it took for the home versions to reach consoles after the arcade release.

yeah, I do think that most fighting games have a hard time getting away from the generic characters, and SC tpyes to and comes up with a few good weapons, but I think the artist haven't come up with very cool looking character but the ideas from them are cool.

I find the DOA games to have an easier learning curve. I think there is a alot more to DoA3 then there is in game play then CS2 so far of what I have play of both game.

quote:Originally posted by Doord

yeah, I do think that most fighting games have a hard time getting away from the generic characters,

I think this may be due to the fact that the 'character archetypes' form the basis of game balance (probably the most important thing in a fighter).

ie - Fat guy = strong but slow.
- Chick = Fast but weaker. etc..
- Ryu type character = all round proficiency.

And so on, with variations in the different categories.

Havent played either yet.
However, I have Soul Calibur on DC and it kicks ass. I love the character and art style on the game.

quote:Originally posted by Makk

Havent played either yet.
However, I have Soul Calibur on DC and it kicks ass. I love the character and art style on the game.

well Soul Calibur 2 is no different, so you really just haven't played DoA 3.

quote:Originally posted by JonathanKerr

I've had limited experience with DOA3, but I've had lots with the previous incarnations of the series to know that the game rewards button mashing on a scale unseen in fighting games.

I played against a button masher today. He was easily delt with by using blocks, quick attacks and counter attack. Button mashers usually only ever win by luck. We were playing teams(5 vs 5) so his luck rarely lasted long enough too take out my entire team. I guess if we were playing a normal vs. game it would have been different, i probably would have only won 3/4 matches.

I have to agree with the designs being generic comment. It has a "its been done" feel to it and not just becuase I've played the previous versions.

I tried playing this game at harvey norman for 2 minutes. I ended up running along a set of train tracks toward an oncoming train...

I really hated the experience.

I feel for you - Turok on the N64 was a similar experience, that game drove me nuts...

Well that leads me to an interesting question. If repetitious jumping isn't fun, why has repetitious shooting lasted so long in the industry?

well, one of the few game i have ever finished was 'space station silicon valley' (n64) which was interesting and fun, and halfway through was a large and amost impossible level where -step or fall in water = death. it would take over 15min of careful play to get to the end of the level, where you had to navigate swinging vines which ultimatly went over the same water. took quite a bit of practice...

this is perhaps the positive argument for 'occasional extreme difficulty', it took me a few days to beat the level, and was able to finish a few different levels rather than finish this difficult one (that mario64 style multiple level options), but in buffy it is just sounding annoying. wonder if there is an easier way to finish that level...

Indiana Jones and the Emperors Tomb had a LOT of jumping action. Thankfully, not all the time you died if you fell off, but then again a lot of times you did.

The jumping parts weren't too bad, and jumping with the whip was actually fun. However, there was one level towards the end, where you are running through a large aqueduct, and you are being chased by a tank. Basically the whole level, you had to keep running and jumping across pits, if you stopped you got run over. Add to that consecutive whip swings, where there will be three pits in a row that you have to swing across. Very hard to let the whip go and have enough time to swing your whip again while in mid air, so you can go across the next one.

It took me over two dozen tries to finish that level, it was extremely frustrating. The rest of the game I had barely any problems with jumping puzzels, it was just this one level that suddenly got insanely difficult.

The awesome hand to hand combat system made up for it though. Damn it was great, and spot on to the fighting in the Indiana Jones films.

I totally agree Pants, I haven't played Buffy but jumping puzzles nearly ruined Half life for me and that was a A+ title.

If its not a cute little plumber then quit it with the jumping already.

If repetitious shooting was as critical as jumping puzzles, for example, you died everytime because you didn't hit your target, then the genre would definately die a pretty quick death [:)].
I'm sure most game designers are aware that no one has the patience for precise jumping puzzles + death as the penalty. I read somewhere that Shigeru Miyamoto made an effort to tone down that kind of thing in Mario 64 and Mario Sunshine, so instead of dying, you just fall back down a bit of the level.

Speaking of cheap games, I just bought Tony Hawk 3 on PC for $10.. [:)] (yes, it's a legit copy). Pretty nice deal if you ask me!

whats the difference between tony hawk 3 and 1? besides an improvement in polycounts etc.

New tricks and new maps...
CYer, Blitz

Most of this proves the amazing ignorance of some of today's leading developers. You'd think after several decades, things like cheap death and frustrating difficulty levels would be firmly entrenched in the design process as a universal no-no. Dodgy cameras never case to amaze me. It's been, what...seven years since Mario 64? How fucking hard is it to get it right? Aesthetic quality in graphics is also lacking. Stilted, robotic characters now look pretty much like the stilted, robotic characters of yesteryear; the only difference being a higher resolution. Too many developers are willing to replace old game engines with new ones instead of improving their drawing skills.

Makes me wonder if...1. Developers actually play games, 2. Their QA testers aren't doing crack. Perhaps there's hope for the future.

I think people tend to forget that developers want to build games for the public but answer to publishers not the buyer, the developer generally will have a much better game in mind until the publishers marketing department get their hands on it.

If a developer has sole control of a title and is self funded then you have a case to be annoyed with them but most generally have little choice, make it our way or find someone else to pay your staff.

As for bad design such as mentioned above, well thats mainly certainly the developers fault and alot of these isssues that keep reappearing, invisible wall that look like you can pass them, insta-death puzzles etc shouldn't be in modern games, it just plain laziness in my opinion.

You have to understand that there are MANY publishers (and developers) out there who have no interest in delivering new (or refined) gameplay. They are driven by the $. People keep buying "franchise X", so why would they change their approach.

I'm not saying this is wrong. But as a gamer - i hate it.

In a perfect world, gameplay and innovation would drive sales. Which would essentially mean that Nintendo would rule the world, not EA (and its ilk).

cheers

Smeg: I absolutely agree its not actually 'wrong', publishers are in it for money after all, but I will say I think they would make more cashola if they actually listened to consumers instead of imposing there will on us, they are short changing all involved with their creative(hehe right) input.

Like I said before the gameplay issues on the other hand are just plain lazy design and testing.

Have to disagree that Nintendo would rule the world, I always look forward to Nintendo titles/consoles as I've always had a soft spot in my heart for them but time and time again they don't deliver. Except Zelda titles, I'd buy the console for those alone.

BTW how much are they paying you to be their number 1 fan. [:P]

The problem is that consumers don't realise what they want. Consumers may say they want good games, but sales figures often say otherwise.

Gaming is becoming so mainstream that games now appeal to demographics or existing fan-bases, rather than relying solely on being a good game.

Nintendo are clever because they combine the best of both approaches. They take their incredibly strong franchises, and build new gameplay into them. Sure, they are often guilty of thrashing their franchises to death, but they are at least concerned about the quality (and appeal) of their games.

I cant comment on Nintendo not delivering... I'm not sure what games you mean. And as far as getting paid - i have to keep forking over money for blood must-have games... =D

cheers

quote:If repetitious shooting was as critical as jumping puzzles, for example, you died everytime because you didn't hit your target, then the genre would definately die a pretty quick death

Have you ever tried to get your dad to play "shooter x"...the games really *do* die a pretty quick death in their minds. My dad struggled like all hell to overcome the interface (he mostly just plays Grand Prix Legends and Freecell). There is definitely punishment for failure in killing games.

It's not just punishment that is the issue. It's about superflous interface, 'reward structure' (as I call it when I'm toying with game design), and player motivation.

I think the reason shooting isn't as boring for most of us, is because
i) We aren't challenged by the interface.
ii) There is a reward, you kill/destroy the obstacle (I think there's something psychologically rewarding about that for most gamers).
iii) You are motivated to do it again by a sense of displaying power.

(ii and iii vary depending on the game. For example, some games the motivation is more story based, objective based etc etc. Some games the reward is the exhilaration of a well executed strategy blah blah...you can fill in the blanks)

Whereas, when you jump over something

i) the interface can be challenging. It's not very naturally/superfluously expressed by the mouse + keyboard or gamepad controllers.
ii)There is no reward, only punishment for failure.
iii)And the only motivation is that if you finish that fuxing jumping episode, you won't have to do it again.

I agree that jumping obstacles/puzzles are stupid - however not entirely because of the punishing nature of it, but because of the obstacle's poor genetic make-up - it fails my three 'tenets' of good game design.

The biggest problem is that game design more often than not, forgets about player reward, and just adds in a "punishment structure" instead.

quote:it fails my three 'tenets' of good game design

That sounds interesting... any chance of an elaboration? =D

I'll admit my dad isn't a big fan of Shooter games but I showed him Diablo once and he's been hooked ever since. Diablo didnt really revolutionise gameplay (click, click, click, drink poition) but it was interesting, random, had a decent story, and had replayability. In other words it didnt bore him which is why it the only game (apart from possible minesweeper and freecell) that he plays.

Stu

expected that.

totally expected that LOL

good, will give me time to save up for a nice video card so i can run the thing

That's incredible, they've been working on that game for at least 4 years...and they still couldn't predict when it would be released or finish it on time.
*sigh*

I hear reports that valve actually are on the september 30 deadline, but the publisher is pushing it back to christmas in the hope of more sales...
CYer, Blitz

I just assumed it had something to do with them trying to offer HL2 as a downloadable package through steam... which has been having its share of problems, it seems.

I would be surprised if the _game_ is not yet finished.

Maitrek: Rule one in the game industry: Its out when its out.

I thought the media blockout regarding HL2 by Valve for those 4 or so years was pure genius. They should have kept at it until the release date. [:)] After 4 years of development, they'd probably have a pretty good judgement on how long the game had left in development. I'm guessing that the delay is perhaps Steam related. Of course, that does beg the question why they just can't release the box copy anwyay. Nevertheless, I'm pretty good at waiting. [:)]

I do like the Idea/setting of warcraft, and I have always loved the art. So I think that if there was one game that I would play as a MMORPG it would be this.

I want to be a ghoul.

Vote 1 World of Warcraft as the offical MMORPG of Sumea.

Pantmonger

It's a blizzard game, so we have to play it ;)

What's this "undecided" thing? I don't understand it, inglis ;->

I'm interested in checking out the beastmaster or hunter or
whatever the class is - recruiting big pussycats to fight for
you sounds like fun :)

Hopefully blizzard will release the full soundtrack to it like
they did for D2 - heck I'd probably buy the game just for the
music (good for writing code to :-)

Cheers,

CW

i have only played WarCraft 3/Frozen Throne out of the series, and they is cool...so this out to be wicked...

I'd much prefer to play Warcraft as an RPG/mmorpg than just an RTS, the world has alot more possible depth that this game will hopefully open us up too.

I second that vote Pants and the ghoul thing, they look excellent.

I see dead people.

WoW looks like it will rock. I'm a big fan of Warcraft 3, the whole warcraft universe roxorz.

Sumea clan for world of warcraft!!!

I'm not an RPG fan but I'll definitely get this.

I'm with inglis.. I dont particularly want to put my money into something that could potentially be another Star Wars Galaxies.

Though its Blizzard, and it'll probably have superb gameplay.(not to mention being finished.)

Still would have to be awesome to justify me spending a bunch of money each month for the privelage of playing it.

Yeah I cant wait for this, I'm a big fan of the entire Warcraft series.

Stu

I'm hanging out for this. The Troll seems quite interesting especially.

I've been playing the Warcraft series since Warcraft:Orcs and Humans came out all those years ago, and finally a chance to interact in the world! This game will definately be worth the cash.

The hero system looks good anyway, but the only downside that I have noticed (that personally I don't like) is the faction system.

hi and welcome....

Yo. Welcome.

A good way to start here is to show us some of your stuff. Doesn't have to be your best or even finished -- we have respect for everyones work.

yeah, welcome man.
Show us yer stuff!!

Awesome!

yeh...it seems pretty kool

they are apparently making adapters hat can support XBox controllers and old Atari joysticks, USB devices, PS2 devices and all sorts of stuff...definaely worth a look i think!

testing my avatars...please ignore

I wonder if you can emulate it soon. [:)]

there are demo games there that run in an emulator..

testing avatar again...[^]

Hi Mark.

This is the first I've heard of Lanthrax so I can't say I'll be attending. I am interested in meeting Melbournites who are passionate about games, art etc though.

Rarely will I knock back an invitation to enjoy a brew, but I'm flat out over the next month or so and can't reliably say I will be available. So consider this just a registration of interest, for now.

I've just moved house and plan to get a new internet account soon. Once thats sorted I will frequent #sumea on IRC. Until then feel free to [url="mailto:adrianjrose@hotmail.com"]email me[/url].

Cheers

hehe same goes here, it would be interesting to meet people that have the same passion. [:)] im always frequent in IRC #sumea as well. U getting into 3D too AJ ? you have have good drawing skillz [:)]

Melbournians!!!! I'm not exactly a UT veteran, tho I do enjoy UT2003. Not sure abt turning up to a LAN marathon at the moment. However, I'll be very happy to meet other game ppl in Melbourne. I'm currently learning how to draw. :/

Thanks ninja :)
I do 3D too but I find myself in photoshop or painter most of the time for work and hobby. I plan to step up my 3D soon.

Ahh, you'll miss me by a bit over a week. I'm going over there from the 24th - 27th for the australian taekwondo championships. (if anyone wants to email me any ideas on cheap accomodation near the brisbane entertainment centre - feel free, just don't hijack this thread :))

well, I'm of course in :)

There is also Redwyre and Kez from chat :)

If I have time free, I'll try and be there.

Pantmonger

if im able to ill be there..

We never had our Brissie meet up (unless I wasn't invited, which I wouldn't discount) so that could be an opportunity @:-)

get into chat of a night's and discuss if you're interested with Jac' and I - should be good. We've got a heap of meets lined up so a large sumea group would be groovy [:)]

Indeed, we need to get the brisbane crowd together for some serious... err
whatever game developers do when they have gatherings

Sounds like this should be happening sometime next week. Drink a schooner for me, will ya [;)]

Kezza: Game developers generally talk about our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ when we have gatherings, that and bake muffins. [:P]

I make really good peanut butter cookies!

mmm-mmmmmm! ^_^

yes you do :)

*salivates at the thought of peanut butter cookies*

The city is packed on friday night...

Ok. Getting close enough to the time now....

The best time for me is going to be Sat afternoon/early evening. Just wondering if people want to get together for a late lunch or early dinner? I thought something like a half decent sit down pizza/pasta joint might work best.

Unsure of locations etc so I can use some help from you guys that are already up there!

Also - what times suit people best? I thought maybe early dinner would be best then maybe some entertainment?

One option is to grab a bite at the Pizza Hut restaurant in the city (Queen st mall) wheather dine-in, or get take away and eat at King George Square (if the weather is dry and there isn't some big event going on there).

Afterwards if it's early enough (ie before 7pm) 'The Basement', also nearby in the city centre, in the Hilton hotel basement) there are cheap drinks and entertainment later usually (heavy and/or alternate bands)... but once they start playing talking is out of the question due to the volume!.

Just a note,

Cheryl and myself will be down in New Farm, and can easily bus up anywhere in and around the valley, so best to meet up somewhere near there. I'm fairly newish to Brisbane and this is Cheryl's first time here too, so don't send us tripping all over Brisbane on the bus system ;)

the basement..yeah you wont hear yourself speak lol

The places i've mentioned are all in the city centre so all you'd have to do is get your butts into the heart of the city and go from there.

The basement is pretty quiet and empty at around 6pm usually... and it's a short walk from that pizza place too. (not sure actually when they open.. haven't been there for months)

Gilhooleys (next to QANTM) is also just a short walk from the pizza hut.

The Valley is by far a more interesting place to meet, unless your into irish pubs and sports bars, meh.

quote:Originally posted by Malus

The Valley is by far a more interesting place to meet, unless your into irish pubs and sports bars, meh.

Any suggestions then? :)

Fat Boys in the valley mall, next to Ric?s.
Easy to get to (a block away from the train station)
Good food, including $4 breakfast, all day.

Just my 2 cents
Pantmonger

Oooo all day breakfast :) Sounds good to me. Unless anyone has a better suggestion that sounds as fine as anything. Easy enough to access etc.

So what time? Plan for 5:00 and assume some people won't turn up to 6:00?

valley mall meaning next to warner street running off brunswick?

The Valley eh......................
*cough*

Anyway if you want somewhere to go with some light entertainment may i suggest the following:
* Dinner at the restaurant in the casino - buffet for $19 all you can eat + drinks - followed by gambling in the casino - followed by or at the same time checking out hot chicks in the casino.
* Few drinks at PJ O'Briens pub on Charlotte St, Irish joint lots of space usually live band good for some chatter
* Alternative to that is the sports bar next door.

If you then wanted to goto "the valley" or "the shithole" (please select your definition - i select.. 2) its a very quick trip down ann st.

The nightlife, entertainment, fashion, cusine, clubbing centre of Brisbane is a shithole now....ooo kay.

Yeah lets go to a Irish bar thats much more cultured lol. [:P]

Ricks in the valley is not a bad place (if you can find a table)... just don't eat at that kebab place near there.

Around 5 - 6 suits me fine.
Rics cafe is next door to, and part of Fat Boys. Together they form a titan called "Fat Rics" (I kid you not).

bradb, get some tact. If I suggest a venue and you dont like it, thats fine but by saying its a shit hole and implying that the idea was a stupid one comes across more then a bit insulting. You could have just said that you were not personaly fond of the valley. Just as I am saying, I personaly don't like the casino.

Pantmonger

Saturday the 11 at 5pm at Fat Boys it is.

If your coming along email me at: jacana_s@yahoo.com.au
Can do mobile number swap!

I might go... I have two assignments which still require a lot of my attention if I'm to complete them on time, but an hour or two spent meeting people from Sumea can't hurt. Put me down as a "maybe" [:)]

What time ya reckon you'll all loiter about for? I don't finish work until 6, so prolly wouldn't get in there til 7-ish. @:-P

If you can affort ADSL, then go for it :)

Hey Malus, I got ADSL earlier this year. I researched a lot of providers and two that stood out were netspace and inet... I went for netspace.

I'm with netspace.

i just signed up with tpg which is a pretty good deal.

Thanks for the replies everyone,
I was checking out iinet also Red5, my friend has it and said its pretty good.

Netspace and Tpg hey, I'll check them out.

Thanks again.

Netspace and internode were looking good last time i checked. But that was about 8 months ago. Check www.whirlpool.net.au for broadband pricing guides/news etc. very good website. Also, broadband is 10193849327492349 times better than 56k, so if you can afford it i say go for it. I'd love to get it here, but i'm too far from the exchange or some shit so i'll move at the end of the year :)
Just the fact that you're always online and don't have to dialup (no disconnections, no busy signals) is great, and online gaming experiences are fantastic! :) Btw, in general ADSL plans are much better than cable plans, and adsl services are usually just as good or better...unless you';re with telstra :)
Last thing, i've heard TPG have really bad customer service (as bad as telstras).
CYer, Blitz

Cheers Blitz, I had checked out whirlpool earlier, good site.

I have just come off my Telstra cable plan that I have been on for about 2 or 3 years. I'm not going back to Telstra as I'm sick of the download limit and general highway robbery they partake in.

I'm looking for a good DSL plan too, only this time I want unlimited download. There is a 512/128 unlimited download plan from [url]www.dart.net.au[/url] but I've missed out on their free installation offer, now its $140 install for 6 month plan or $60 for 12 months.

Can anyone recommend a DSL modem?

I've had good experience with internode, very friendly customer service and good prices. I've also heard good things about oz forces.

I'm like you I don't download much or play games, so I'm sitting on a 256k 2 gig cap plan with internode for $60 a month, and rarely use up all 2 gig.

I would definately go for DSL, it works out about the same price as dialup anyways after you take into account all the extra costs involved with dialup like the connection fee ( i was using about $15-20 a month just dialing in =) and any extra lines you would probably have so you could use your phone at the same time (another $20 or so a month for me).

I'm not too sure if people are interested in DSL plans, but I too am with Netspeed. I have the 'All You Can Eat' 512/128k deal, and it is faaaaaan-tastic. In the first month I dl 50gb :P They didn't have a cry at me either.

At the time I was looking at Internode as well, but i didn't like their limitations to their unlimited packages. Where once you had dl 30gb, you were throttled back to dial up speeds.

I have said my piece now, so I'll be off.

Is anyone using their cable connection for phone as well? Do you get charged extra, apart from your calls out (e.g phone service fee) ?? What are your costs? I'm paying $80 a month for phone, which includes a $26 phone service and equipment fee (they haven't even given me a phone) + many local calls due to dialing up the isp, so I'd probably be better off going or a cable/phone deal..