I saw it last night.
I thought it sucked.. big time.
I knew it was never going to match up to the first film in regards to the story, so I went in without huge expectations. But, boy, I was pretty disappointed. There were some parts of the movie which I thought were just downright embarrassing (Morpheous's speech at Zion, the guy with the strange French accent at the restaurant for example). And all the action sequences - technically amazing as they were, just weren't intense or adrenaline rushing.. The highway car chase action sequence didn't do much for me - it hardly touches the car chase scenes in movies like Ronin. The story itself was pretty uninspiring.. some techno babble that went way too long at times too..
Wow i would have to dissagree on that one, i thought the movie rocked.
Although to be honest i was a little dubious at the start because it seemed like a totally different movie than the original but once it got going it was alot of fun.
The highway scene was awesome and despite what everyone is saying the fight scenes didnt seem to long to me but maybe im just easy to please.
Will agree with you that Morpheous's speech seemed a little "gay" but as i said to my girlfriend while we watched the whole zion party scene was to illustrate what they are all fighting to the death for ... theres some epic battles ahead and up to that point we had no emmotional attachment to zion other than the 1 or 2 lines of script in the first movie where they talked about it.
However, my prediction for the 3rd movie is that Zion is part of the matrix...
It seems this is one of those movies you either love or hate. I thought it was really good, although I do realise there were some really bad moments of filming/scripting in it. Overall if you were prepared to just have some fun and enjoy the ride the movie was great. However if you expected it to be similar to the original you were going to be bitterly disappointed if not left angry.
There's plenty of other over-rated movies out there. Take x-men 2 for example...people loved that but there were plenty of weaknesses in it too (I thought it rocked by the way). I think people just scrutinise the matrix sequel more than they probably realise they do. It was good fun! The action scenes had plenty of adrenaline if you were still accepting the movie at the time.
I think alot of people got too pissed off at the start and then made it their personal crusade to dislike the whole movie.
I think the plot was more than just techno/psycho babble. Alot of what the movie was carried on from the original. Power of beliefs - misguided beliefs, sheltering yourself from the truth or accepting the truth. Then there is that stuff about pre-determinism and choice etc. It wasn't just babble, alot of the characters actions and motivations were guided by these principals that they clung to.
I will say this for sure though, it wasn't as good as the first one.
Morpheous's speech just seemed out of character to me. Most likely due to him having to yell, whereas you're used to seeing him calm and soft spoken. The edge of the action sequences, I feel, have been taken away.. There wasn't as much sense of urgency or consequence to the outcome of the scenes. And the ideas for the action sequences seem to be the same as the last, just bigger. Rippling building explosions, sparring, sparring with weapons.. the ending with Trinity made me cringe.
I have to constantly remind myself that this is really half a film (the other half being Matrix 3), which explains why some of the new characters don't do anything, and why some segments of the film make no sense whatsover.. I'm guessing they'll expand on it in the next one. The kissing scene in the bathroom with Neo? What was with the cake eating scene? For me, personally, if they cut that part of the movie out, I wouldn't have complained. Don't tell me that French/German speaking guy didn't babble on! :) Same with the segment with the architect at the end.. Seemed way too drawn out, I thought. I felt that the twins were a bit of a let down too, playing a pretty minor role in the movie. No idea who they are, why they can do what they can do.. (**ok, did a bit of reading, and I should have gathered that they're just like agents for that rogue program).
A small thing I did like was Neo seeing the dependance and burden of being 'The One' that's been put onto him by those in Zion. That was pretty touching, but it didn't last for more than about 30 seconds total.
We know Neo is the one, we know he can kick arse in the Matrix. Everytime we see a Neo action scene, we know he is going to win hands down, so thats why that sense or urgency isn't there anymore. The french fella just went on and on... it was a bit pointless. The architect was too drawn out too.
That dance party/orgy in Zion didn't need to be in there, what was with that. It didn't seem to really work too well with how the rest of the people are portrayed there. One minute Zion is all these serious techy people and old beggars, next thing it is a bunch of primitive teenage cave people getting it on in the masses.
The CG doubles were really bad at points too... especially in the Neo vs 100 Agent Smith scenes.
Overall, I didn't mind the movie... but yeah it could have been a lot better.
If the ideas for the action sequences were the same as the last - what made the last ones not crap? And of course the action sequences had less edge, it was like pitting a hundred little kids against an adult kung fu monk dude, how often do little kids win?
Morpheus character I think was a little better explained. I mean you think about it - this guy is basically a fanatic - *even* in the original, I guess they just over-emphasised it in this one. (Fanatacism)'s what gives him his calm and confidence, but it also makes him a total fruit-loop sometimes.
The ending with trinity was poorly executed, the orgy scene - well what do you expect, I think it was trying to make a point about the whole "is the matrix so bad?" because people go after the same things inside and outside of the matrix (links up with that french guys' babble). But it was definitely a crap scene. As was the Orgasmirator cake (anyone else here seen Orgazmo? Damn funny at bits).
Obviously the twins were two constructs, I picked that one fairly easy. The architect segment was alright, but it was poorly edited and kind of removed some dramatic impact from the individual scenes that it was going on about.
For sure the movie could've been better. But there are lots of movies that could've been better, it just depends whether we are prepared/want to tolerate some movies faults in order to appreciate fully it's qualities.
Hell yeah :)
I just feel people are taking apart this movie like no other. I mean no one hates star wars because luke skywalker says "But I was going to go down to (wierd name) station to pick up some power convertors"...I mean that's weak dialogue with s*** acting, but hardly anyone gets upset about it - the movie was still fun.
Obviously arguing whether a movie is good or bad is pretty futile, since everyone has different tastes and opinions, but of course, you wouldn't expect me to say a movie was crap without pointing out what I didn't like about it :) Those things I mentioned were the reasons I couldn't escape and enjoy it, and trust me, I did try!
Maitrek, try using episode 1 of Star Wars with Jar Jar Binks as an example, and you might get a different reaction ;). And the action sequences the first time round were better because they were original. Doing the same ideas the second time around (even though they were more fancier) takes away some of the surprise I guess.
I do agree with pretty much everything that's written in this thread - the difference I guess is that you were able to get over the flaws to enjoy the movie, but for me, they were what brought it down. I don't think I picked the movie apart too much at all. You should read some of the negative reviews of Matrix Reloaded on the web. :)
I'm with you malus I enjoy the movie for what it is and try not to get to bogged down with all the "why did the chicken cross the road" stuff.
Hell I even enjoyed Arnies Collateral Damage, sure it was crap but it was WATCHABLE crap :)
Souri: the Cake scene was to set up the "WHY" for frenchys wife to betray him... ie, he gives this hot chick an orgasmo cake.... she goes to the bathroom .. he follows and we assume gives her whatfor, later on when the wife sends the bodyguards/old agents to go get him she sez "You will find him in the ladies bathroom".
The twins are agents from a previous matrix, remember that the current matrix is the 5th version (according to the architech dude) and neo is the current "One"
And don't forget the lipstick that wasnt on his face :) Oh I picked up on that as soon as she said it and started to laugh. It took most of the others in the cinema about 1 more second to get it...
I liked the movie. I thought it was amazing - but I wasnt a real Matrix groupie with the first one...
The one part of the movie that I just can not stop laughing about is the fight scene with all the Hugo cops. It so reminds me of that Mad Onion benchmark test with all the same guys running around the screen shooting each other and falling down.
First time, I thought it was great but lacking in places but after seeing it a second time, I think it's much deeper than the first but it's pacing is a little off. It doesn't flow as well as the first one. It is a little less urgent as well - we know Neo can take anyone.
The theme for this one is different. The first movie was about "What is real?", this one is about "What is choice and do we really have a choice?". The speech with the Merovingian perfectly illustrates an age old question of whether we have free will or not. The Merov believes totally in causality (universal causation) where as Morpheus believes in choice.
Merovingian - "It all comes down to action, reaction. Cause, effect".
Morpheus - "No. It all begins with a choice."
I liked a lot of the subtle hints - and trying to work out why people are called what they are. For the record, the Merovingians were a line of Kings who believed they were directly descended from the line of Christ. Persephone was the (un)willing wife of Hades. Niobe is the character personified by arrogance and loses her 14 children etc...
I also thought that Zion is a part of the matrix, but then you have people who can't get into the Matrix (no plugs) but who knows?
Hmm. I can't really decide which one I like better so I'm gonna say that I like them both the same. There's some very cool bits like when the various Neo's all shout "Bullshit!" at the architect, the carchase, Morhpheus dealing with the twins and the fight INSIDE the car. I also liked how there's far more 'factions' in this movie.
Great stuff. Much deeper than the first one but the weirdness and pacing pretty much means it's as accessible.
Its all good to say that people shouldnot be a critic and just go enjoy the movie, but it can be hard to do that if the movie simply doesn't do anything for you. It may be that we simply don't enjoy the movie for what it is.
I don't see anything wrong with people criticising a movie. Its fine if people talk about how good the movie was, but it should also be fine if someone wants to talk about what they didn't enjoy. You can't force people to like something.
As for the comment on Mark Hamil's acting in Star Wars, I think the reason no one complained about that was the whole concept of the movie overshadowed it. Nothing like that had been done before. People weren't interested in seeing Mark Hamil whine, they wanted to see the space battles and lightsabre fights. By the time the second came around, people wanted more action plus something new, and they got that in the form of better writing, a good director and an awesome twist. Unfortunately it started to go downhill from Return of the Jedi.
The same was with the Matrix. No one went to see Keanu Reeves act or anything like that, it was all about the effects and style. The other parts of the movie didn't matter so much. With Reloaded they didn't do too bad a job, its just that the pace and some aspects of the store weren't all that crash hot. Sure it had the plot twist thing at the end, but its not quite as cool as say Agent Smith being Neo's Father :P
For sure it's fine for people to critique a movie - I'm just surprised that people fail to find anything good from the movie at the same time. It gives me the impression they are out to not enjoy the movie, and they aren't looking for the positives. Kind of a glass half empty style of critiqueing (negative) rather than glass half full. I'm not saying they are necessarily *trying* to dislike it, but they aren't really giving a huge effort into appreciating what it does do right.
I'm perfectly capable of talking about what made the matrix reloaded good and bad, I know there are some pretty bad moments in the movie and that's why I would be careful to say that it's a "great" movie, but it was certainly enjoyable anyway...
Souri - you're right, I think some people stomach average/poor movie making better than others.
I know average film making when I see it, and Matrix Reloaded had plenty, but I would never say that the movie "sucked.. big time." I can stomach the bad moments and enjoy the good parts (and there was plenty of good too in the Matrix Reloaded). From a purely critical/negative point of view I could point out alot of weak moments, but I've ruined so many movies for myself doing that - that I've realised movies are to be enjoyed, not intellectually digested like some kind of machinated process that must be crafted to perfection.
I found that the action scenes didn't leave you a moment to think, but the parts that required thinking didn't leave you a moment to think either... :P That's fine by me though, as I do most of my thinking of a movie after the movie, and the conclusions that I came up with were that the action sequences were better but the plot wasn't as good (except for the meeting with the Architect).
I think the movie was quite bad compared to the first one (dialogue reasons). The story flowed ok and it wasn?t hard to understand (main themes). It was just a big disappointment nevertheless but not a really movie.
The fight with the Smiths, first half of it was fine. Then Neo started to do the pole thing, that looked really bad as he looks too liquid and his clothes - wrong colour. It was too CG and that was crap. The why they rendered the coat; it was very heavy and thick for a while and then lighter; it was just inconsistent. (I observed that because I was bored with the fight as it was too long.) The good thing about them, nice choice of clothes.
Morpheus - this time, less hole filler make up and too many close ups of his face. For god's sake they shouldn't use a green background to film something that is for warm light...like that cave speech scene.
The sex scene...well the only good thing with that was the sweat looked real enough to convince me. Overall it was really too long...made me think I was in the middle of a boring game and then suddenly started to watch a porno. That scene showed me too much of Keanu Reeves and I didn?t like it.
That French guy, he?s only thinking of how to get laid more but he goes on and on about how he does it. A new meaning to date rape drugs ?I wrote that program?and it does?.
The Architect guy has the most interest and boring lines at the same time. I liked that scene. Maybe it?s the screens at the back; they were cleaver.
They have really bad music too...it kind of didn't suit the mood.
There are lots things that I don?t understand in the plot.
Bane, he looks like Smith with a beard but why did he cut his hand?
Smith seems to want to take over Neo but why? So he can fly or be The One?
Homophobes :P
Picking apart special effects still seems a little harsh - I've always believed that if you can't stand special effects looking somewhat unrealistic (and can't just use your imagination), then don't go to the movies until 2010 when we have the computing power to make things look photrealistic :)
I think its fine to critic a movie and if you really disliked then go for it but I find most people nowdays go into movies with their critic goggles on super bitchy, "If I did it it would be much better" mode.
Maitrek I have to say that we do have computers cabable of making CG look realistic.
I did find the CG lacking in alot of areas and I wasn't trying to look for it either. There were some really shoddy parts that just jumped of the screen at you, probably because they did too many slow motion shots on CG characters, thats always a risky choice as it gives the viewer enough time to scan it properly.
The robot looked badly animated and his head was mr rubber ken doll man.
The agent crushing the car was also Ken doll rubber guy, he also looked like he had no weight and was made of rubber (bad lighting too).
In the big Neo/Agent smith fight Neo looked very rubbery in some areas (great in others though).
All in all most were great but some areas looked rushed and unfinished especially certain animations, lighting and cloth deformations.
Having said that, I didn't care, it didn't spoil the movie for me and I only noticed that because I'm trained in CG stuff I didn't go looking for a 'fight' as the case is with alot of movie goers. I enjoyed the movie immensely.
Like I said before, I got my $7 worth.
Leviron: This is my take on the things you found confusing.
Bane: This is agent Smith in a human body (he has managed to imprint himself on people) in my view he cut his hand because he wanted to experience the human feeling of pain, programs don't hurt in the matrix.
Smith: Wants to kill Neo because:
A. He is the only threat to his yet untold and unexplained plans to be the only one to alter the matrix and destroy Zion/humans. He was imprinted with some of Neo's "human' qualities and can now choose his fate unlike programs which are governed by rules in the Matrix. Remember he also feels humans are all virus's like cancer.
B. Hes just nasty. [:P]
C. he is still in some ways programmed to do it.
quote:Maitrek I have to say that we do have computers cabable of making CG look realistic.
I did find the CG lacking in alot of areas and I wasn't trying to look for it either. There were some really shoddy parts that just jumped of the screen at you, probably because they did too many slow motion shots on CG characters, thats always a risky choice as it gives the viewer enough time to scan it properly.
To me that second statement seems almost to be defeating the first statement :P
I definitely think although we can make still shots look good, we are miles behind on getting things that are moving to look realistic.
The creators of the Spider-Man CGI model spent a lot of time building it with proper anatomy, muscle structure, and made sure the limbs never went beyond their physical limit.. and people still put down the Spider-Man CGI, saying it was unrealistic. The CGI guys put it down to the fact that people have never seeing a human jump as far or swing that way before, and I think that applies here too. The human brain just isn't used to seeing guys jump on cars causing incredible damage, or spinning around a pole and doing some incredible things against a hundred clones before..
Maitrek: I said we can make it realistic, didn't say they did.
Souri: Spidermans lighting made him look off in my opinion, not the animation.
Realistic CG can be done, Golem/Balrog for instance. It just isn't done regulary.
I don't think the human brain not seeing it before has that much to do with it when it looks like rubber. That mainly bad lighting.
it was the lighting, facial detail and cloth simulation that clued me in whenever they used cg keanu or cg agent smith... surprising, because they apparently used image based lighting (IBL), which *should* have made the lighting extremely realistic
just goes to show how sensitive the human brain is to spotting fakes in human anatomy, especially faces...
Gollum (is that how it's spelt? Can't remember read the book a long time ago) did not look realistic. It was a very good effort though, but he's not expected to do so many things in slow motion as Neo is - Gollum was in motion quite alot.
Also, Gollum isn't human so we don't have such a pre-conception about how he moves and looks (and emotes) whereas we see people everyday and have very specific knowledge of how they look.
Having said that, the balrog was definitely awesome, but probably had better conditions to work with (dark cave etc) and most of the light in the scene was from the balrog and the associated firestorm rather than from a sun or other lights in the scene:)
Heh - I can live with that :)
One thing I didn't quite figure out in the movie is how do they restart the matrix each time the destroy Zion? Also, how long does one matrix last for? Little nit picky things I know, but hard to figure out the consistency.
it does make sense to have a time limit on each matrix, because it's suppose to be set in the 90's and obviously the 90's don't just keep re-occurring.
whats everyone think about the architect ?
was he a program or a human plugged into the matrix
cos if he were human there shouldnt be any problem to smack him around
Peter Gillespie
www.3dluvr.com/eagor
yeh thats kinda funny, but i think she was named oracle for other reasons. Its just a coincedence i suppose. I seriously doubt the Wachowskis are trying to prove a point by naming the 'nanny' the 'oracle'.
And BTW i thought they did a good job on the film. Besides the obvious nit picks everybody has mentioned here , i think that the Matrix series tells a worthwhile story, for in some way or other, there is a lesson in it for everyone.
Im looking forward to finding out what part Agent Smith plays in the big scheme of things, and seeing whether or not Neo delivers on the prophecy.
It would be cool if by some strange messed up 'matrix-ism', all 6 versions of Neo somehow returned to fight for Zion in the end. And to do so, they would have to focus on becoming specific body parts, then join together to form "neotron". Neotron then uses the matrix to transform Trinitys RSI into a tritan, which Neo then uses to destroy the matrix once and for all.
O.K that was just me talking s*** there, but on a serious note, does anyone get the impression that the Oracle is implying to Neo that the only way the war will end, is if the robots, programs and humans learn to live together? Maybe im looking into it too much, but if it proves true, then i think the film will end with them all beginning to build a new future, and then they will release the Matrix MMOG which allows people to help bring that new future to fruition. Eg waking up sleepy humans, destroying bad programs etc. Hmmmmmm....
I bet it was the hammy dialogue!!