Hi poly modelling discussion.

Forum
Artists

Ok, don't want to start any flamage with this thread.. So lets keep the debate (if there is any at all) civil!

I'm new to hi poly modelling(sub d method), and I've had some people tell me that quads are the only way to go, and others say that tri's and 'n' sided polies are fine.

So, are there and major weaknesses/strengths in doing either? Or is it just a matter of personal preference?

What about the other techniques, splines, nurbs etc..

Lets hear some opinions!

Submitted by inglis on Thu, 30/10/03 - 2:02 AMPermalink

quads are best ofcourse, especially in your characters face. good edgeloops etc..
if you can avoid tris you should but if you have placed them well you shouldn't have a problem.

Submitted by Red 5 on Thu, 30/10/03 - 8:31 AMPermalink

As inglis mentioned, Quads generally produce the nicest look in a model, especially if the model is environment mapped in the game... tris will often distort environment mapping.

Submitted by Aven on Thu, 30/10/03 - 9:02 AMPermalink

alright i had a dig through my old models and pulled one out that shows why you should be careful when using tris. you are right though, a lot of artists will tell you to use quads without actually being able to explain why (i haven't seen an actual explenation yet).

this is the first character that i ever made using Maya. man i learnt a shit load about hp modelling from him. mainly why not to use triangles.

[img]http://home.netspeed.com.au/mlanham/tylor_01.jpg[/img]

mesh doesn't look to bad except for the big crack running down his face and the fact that he was my first head job ever (hang on... wait a sec...). he was made with the true form of Sub-divisional Modelling (SubD), not the fake poly proxy way (the way that i use now).

[img]http://home.netspeed.com.au/mlanham/tylor_02.jpg[/img]

now we can start to see that the wire frame is looking rather messy all over. his lips and nose are probably the worst affected aras. the ridge of his nose is also very bad.

[img]http://home.netspeed.com.au/mlanham/tylor_03.jpg[/img]

now with the low poly cage layered over top so that you can see the base. notice that there is a nasty six sided nsided poly on the side of his nose doing some funky shit.

[img]http://home.netspeed.com.au/mlanham/tylor_04.jpg[/img]

a close up view of his mouth and nose area.

[img]http://home.netspeed.com.au/mlanham/tylor_05.jpg[/img]

now this is the SubD model once it had been converted entirely to polys. i dare anyone to tell me that it is one beautiful, easy to understand mesh. it is an absolute mess and looks horrible. although when hp modelling, poly counts aren't the bigest deal, you still don't want to have a mesh with (bolded big red fricken blinking letters)THAT(/bolded big red fricken blinking letters) many extra polys.

tris can be alright as long as you be careful where you use them, they can hav a habbit of creating odd creasing along the corner points. nSided polys (five sided or more) can also be a nightmare if not used carefully. the extra vert (over a quad) should try to stay flat along the edge, or it will pinch and create an odd dimple effect. i can post a pic of that if people really need a diagram as to why.

as Inglis mentioned, it is mainly used for the edgeloop/polyloop theory. your loops should follow the contours of the creatures muscles. this done as it will make it easier to model and once the character has been rigged, they will deform better at the muscular areas. if edge/polylooping has been done well, there really shouldn't be any need for tris or nsided polys. there may be as few occassions when a tri or nsided may be needed or prefered over a quad though. it can come down to personal preference.

there is some really good documentation by the worlds best hp modellers here at www.metagons.com also make sure that you check out the wireframe section. it can really help to show you how you can model and area of the body using quads.

if there are any questions or requests, please ask.

Submitted by Sorceror Bob on Thu, 30/10/03 - 10:51 AMPermalink

*slaps head*

this is in the wrong forum! I was sleepy when I posted this.. :/

Great feedback so far guys :D

Submitted by smeg on Thu, 30/10/03 - 11:29 AMPermalink

I know one thing related to the topic - and that is that i HATE spline modelling (in MAX).

i really hate it.

But on the flipside, i probably just can't use it properly. :)

Submitted by Aven on Thu, 30/10/03 - 7:13 PMPermalink

spline modelling is the main reason why you shouldn't use triangle patches. damn bunching up :/

SubD (true or fake) really does work better. it is quicker and has a whole variety of great tools available. and as soon as Byron releases his poly tools for Maya....

Well. what do you know. i just went to grab a link to his site and... it has just been released. i'll have to buy it on the weekend :D http://www.visualboo.com/%7Ebyronimo/mainpage.htm

Submitted by Ionized on Tue, 11/11/03 - 4:39 AMPermalink

Sub divisional surfaces all the way. I tried modelling with Patches and Nurbs and they just seem too restrictive in what they can allow you to create.

As I understand it, there are two schools of thought when you are modelling with sub divisional surfaces. Those that try to avoid poles (verticies that comprise more of less than 4 edges) and those that try to use only quads (four sided polygons).

I think the two are mutually exclusive and it would be inherintly impossible to model something whilst adhering to both methods. If you did, you would end up with something that very much resembled a patch anyway and that would kind of defeat the purpose of modelling with sub-D's in the first place.

I prefer to model whilst adhering to the quad only method. Good results can come of either and I think it really is up to the artist as to which he feels more comforable with.

check this post for a better explanation of the two
[url]http://www.izware.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000313.html[/url]

Theres also the importance of edge loops which in my experience are the most relevant thing when modelling a good clean mesh. They are basically an unbroken loop of edges that help to define the primary forms of the model and serve as a method of selection aswell as a point of reference when you want to uniformly add and subtract detail from your mesh.

This is a head I did a while ago. You can see highlighted the major loops that define the eyes cheeks and mouth. It's certainly not the best example of edge loops out there, but it should give you an idea of what I'm talking about.

[img]http://www.ionization.net/loophead.jpg[/img]

Submitted by Aven on Tue, 11/11/03 - 5:21 AMPermalink

The best resource site I have found is www.metagons.com Go to their wireframe section and there are a lot of good pics to help you out with shape and form. Plus they have material from Bay Raitt, and let's all face it, it doesn't get much better than that.

Submitted by Aven on Sun, 25/01/04 - 12:38 AMPermalink

I decided to post this as I noticed that a few people are raising questions about quads vs tris and pents.

I have done some reading and it seems that modelling with pents is quite alright, as long as you are careful with your UV Wraps. Maya has a problem where relaxing the UV set will cause some odd occurences on the smoothed mesh. I am unsure if Max would have this problem, but just be wary.

http://cube.phlatt.net/forums/spiraloid/viewtopic.php?TopicID=23

Forum
Artists

Ok, don't want to start any flamage with this thread.. So lets keep the debate (if there is any at all) civil!

I'm new to hi poly modelling(sub d method), and I've had some people tell me that quads are the only way to go, and others say that tri's and 'n' sided polies are fine.

So, are there and major weaknesses/strengths in doing either? Or is it just a matter of personal preference?

What about the other techniques, splines, nurbs etc..

Lets hear some opinions!

Submitted by inglis on Thu, 30/10/03 - 2:02 AMPermalink

quads are best ofcourse, especially in your characters face. good edgeloops etc..
if you can avoid tris you should but if you have placed them well you shouldn't have a problem.

Submitted by Red 5 on Thu, 30/10/03 - 8:31 AMPermalink

As inglis mentioned, Quads generally produce the nicest look in a model, especially if the model is environment mapped in the game... tris will often distort environment mapping.

Submitted by Aven on Thu, 30/10/03 - 9:02 AMPermalink

alright i had a dig through my old models and pulled one out that shows why you should be careful when using tris. you are right though, a lot of artists will tell you to use quads without actually being able to explain why (i haven't seen an actual explenation yet).

this is the first character that i ever made using Maya. man i learnt a shit load about hp modelling from him. mainly why not to use triangles.

[img]http://home.netspeed.com.au/mlanham/tylor_01.jpg[/img]

mesh doesn't look to bad except for the big crack running down his face and the fact that he was my first head job ever (hang on... wait a sec...). he was made with the true form of Sub-divisional Modelling (SubD), not the fake poly proxy way (the way that i use now).

[img]http://home.netspeed.com.au/mlanham/tylor_02.jpg[/img]

now we can start to see that the wire frame is looking rather messy all over. his lips and nose are probably the worst affected aras. the ridge of his nose is also very bad.

[img]http://home.netspeed.com.au/mlanham/tylor_03.jpg[/img]

now with the low poly cage layered over top so that you can see the base. notice that there is a nasty six sided nsided poly on the side of his nose doing some funky shit.

[img]http://home.netspeed.com.au/mlanham/tylor_04.jpg[/img]

a close up view of his mouth and nose area.

[img]http://home.netspeed.com.au/mlanham/tylor_05.jpg[/img]

now this is the SubD model once it had been converted entirely to polys. i dare anyone to tell me that it is one beautiful, easy to understand mesh. it is an absolute mess and looks horrible. although when hp modelling, poly counts aren't the bigest deal, you still don't want to have a mesh with (bolded big red fricken blinking letters)THAT(/bolded big red fricken blinking letters) many extra polys.

tris can be alright as long as you be careful where you use them, they can hav a habbit of creating odd creasing along the corner points. nSided polys (five sided or more) can also be a nightmare if not used carefully. the extra vert (over a quad) should try to stay flat along the edge, or it will pinch and create an odd dimple effect. i can post a pic of that if people really need a diagram as to why.

as Inglis mentioned, it is mainly used for the edgeloop/polyloop theory. your loops should follow the contours of the creatures muscles. this done as it will make it easier to model and once the character has been rigged, they will deform better at the muscular areas. if edge/polylooping has been done well, there really shouldn't be any need for tris or nsided polys. there may be as few occassions when a tri or nsided may be needed or prefered over a quad though. it can come down to personal preference.

there is some really good documentation by the worlds best hp modellers here at www.metagons.com also make sure that you check out the wireframe section. it can really help to show you how you can model and area of the body using quads.

if there are any questions or requests, please ask.

Submitted by Sorceror Bob on Thu, 30/10/03 - 10:51 AMPermalink

*slaps head*

this is in the wrong forum! I was sleepy when I posted this.. :/

Great feedback so far guys :D

Submitted by smeg on Thu, 30/10/03 - 11:29 AMPermalink

I know one thing related to the topic - and that is that i HATE spline modelling (in MAX).

i really hate it.

But on the flipside, i probably just can't use it properly. :)

Submitted by Aven on Thu, 30/10/03 - 7:13 PMPermalink

spline modelling is the main reason why you shouldn't use triangle patches. damn bunching up :/

SubD (true or fake) really does work better. it is quicker and has a whole variety of great tools available. and as soon as Byron releases his poly tools for Maya....

Well. what do you know. i just went to grab a link to his site and... it has just been released. i'll have to buy it on the weekend :D http://www.visualboo.com/%7Ebyronimo/mainpage.htm

Submitted by Ionized on Tue, 11/11/03 - 4:39 AMPermalink

Sub divisional surfaces all the way. I tried modelling with Patches and Nurbs and they just seem too restrictive in what they can allow you to create.

As I understand it, there are two schools of thought when you are modelling with sub divisional surfaces. Those that try to avoid poles (verticies that comprise more of less than 4 edges) and those that try to use only quads (four sided polygons).

I think the two are mutually exclusive and it would be inherintly impossible to model something whilst adhering to both methods. If you did, you would end up with something that very much resembled a patch anyway and that would kind of defeat the purpose of modelling with sub-D's in the first place.

I prefer to model whilst adhering to the quad only method. Good results can come of either and I think it really is up to the artist as to which he feels more comforable with.

check this post for a better explanation of the two
[url]http://www.izware.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000313.html[/url]

Theres also the importance of edge loops which in my experience are the most relevant thing when modelling a good clean mesh. They are basically an unbroken loop of edges that help to define the primary forms of the model and serve as a method of selection aswell as a point of reference when you want to uniformly add and subtract detail from your mesh.

This is a head I did a while ago. You can see highlighted the major loops that define the eyes cheeks and mouth. It's certainly not the best example of edge loops out there, but it should give you an idea of what I'm talking about.

[img]http://www.ionization.net/loophead.jpg[/img]

Submitted by Aven on Tue, 11/11/03 - 5:21 AMPermalink

The best resource site I have found is www.metagons.com Go to their wireframe section and there are a lot of good pics to help you out with shape and form. Plus they have material from Bay Raitt, and let's all face it, it doesn't get much better than that.

Submitted by Aven on Sun, 25/01/04 - 12:38 AMPermalink

I decided to post this as I noticed that a few people are raising questions about quads vs tris and pents.

I have done some reading and it seems that modelling with pents is quite alright, as long as you are careful with your UV Wraps. Maya has a problem where relaxing the UV set will cause some odd occurences on the smoothed mesh. I am unsure if Max would have this problem, but just be wary.

http://cube.phlatt.net/forums/spiraloid/viewtopic.php?TopicID=23