Here is an interesting little article:
http://www.gamespy.com/legacy/editorials/females.shtm
"Yes I Code"
As found on AGDC name tag 2002
quote:Originally posted by rezn0r
Maybe he was making a tongue in cheek point about the shallowness of industry perceptions.
That's it reznor. Im bored at work, and being cheeky lightens my day. Communicating on the net is sorta primitive like that i suppose. But if i did offend anyone with my post then all i gotta say is 'it wasnt intentional'.
But in all seriosness though, are there really any super hot chicks playing games? i truly doubt it. So i suppose my first comment has some partial truth to it.
I think what the real question should be however is, 'why do females play games?' For a guy it's understandable. There's the action, the killing, the shooting, the driving. All the stuff that guys like to do. But what are in games that average females can relate to? 'Tomboys' need not apply, there upbringing excludes them from being 'average females'. Instead, im talking about females like your sister, neighbour, school mates, even your mum. The average ones. What would make them play a game, or better yet, what would compel them to browse in the computer game section of the store or shopping centre?
(P.S chill with the attacks, im not here to offened anyone. I haven't gotten personal on you guys)
Shonuff: you start off saying you where kidding then switch back to moron mode and dig a hole even larger for yourself. For your info I know alot of female gamers, some of them are damn hot.
The thing is why do they have to be, it seems in your eyes are women only worthy of respect if they are hot, I pity you friend, you are going to be a very lonely 'boy' for a very long time with that attitude.
Are all male gamers Adonis love gods? probably not but we aren't all pimple faced geeks either, why would women be different?
Tomboys aren't average females? What is average mr Human Physc Expert? Are tomboys freaks or something?
quote:P.S chill with the attacks, im not here to offened anyone. I haven't gotten personal on you guys
I find sexist comments like yours offensive on a personal level because your stupidity helps to create and maintain the superficial social rift between the sexes. You might not have a women you love in your life but I have several and if you attack them you attack me.
BTW: Posts numbering 24 and you're making friends fast.
I will not be responding to any more of your posts on any subject, you just really aren't worth my time.
Leviron: I'm interested in what a women like yourself finds truthful about his post, all my female gamer friends wanted to tear him a new arse. [:p]
Maitrek: I think the internet is as good a medium for communicating as literature is. Tosltoy, Shakspeare, even J.K Rowlings can do it.
I feel its more the lack of communication skills on the part of the author than the mediums fault.
Yourself, Pantmonger, Souri, Inglis ..... many others, are all good at getting your point across on this medium.
To be honest I don't know (on even an acquaintance level) any chicks that play games - or go and buy games, I've never seen a chick in a computer game store (except behind the counter). This says two things - one I probably don't get out enough and don't socialise equally with the two genders, and two, that there is definitely a huge disparity in the level between female gamer participation and male gamer participation. The only chicks that play games are the ones I read about :)
I'm not personally convinced that action, killing, shooting, driving *exclude* general females from the gaming market. I'm fairly convinced the way it is portrayed and experienced does have an effect though on their level of interest. Chicks can easily enjoy mind numbing action movies, which contain passive forms of interactive violence. The same should translate to games, but it hasn't yet.
I read once (I think Stevie Case said something along these lines, I have mixed levels of respect for her) that female gamers tend not to try and try again. Females find it hard to stick at games, whereas a guy sees it as a macho/masochistic challenge. Alot of the fault of games at the moment is still - as far as I believe - inherit in the design/marketing. We market games "as a copy of game x" (generally innovative products don't get published) and hence alot of the games also assume a certain amount of gamer knowledge straight off the bat....a certain level of "familiarity" with concept is assumed.
The failure of games to penetrate the female market speaks quite wholly of the focus of the product at the design *and* marketing level - they are produced for "seasoned" gamers or those with seasoned gamer friends to guide them through it all. Because females are such a small percentage of the market it's not likely to grow in a great hurry.
When games finally start to set out on their own paths and get presented in a far more widely-acceptable format rather than relying on the interfaces/game structures from the past, and the marketing "guru"s start realising games need to be presented on their own merits, and not based on comparisons with other games and/or meaningless objective statistics, then we'll get a more balanced playing field.
p.s. The reason the internet is such an average form of communication is because it takes such a long time for the less literarily skilled to come up with cohesive clear concepts that don't require interpretation (such as sarcasm etc). One could slave away for hours on a post, or could just thrash one out in five minutes but there's a grater chance it was assumed how it was going to be interpreted.I personally take the slaving approach because I have trouble getting exactly what I want to say across, without ambiguity.
Rather than rebutting that, I will call upon my nordish heritage and replace the references to chicks with references to Vikings. Now I can imagine how the girls reading this feel. [:D]
"To be honest I don't know (on even an acquaintance level) any VIKINGS that play games - or go and buy games, I've never seen a VIKING in a computer game store (except behind the counter). This says two things - one I probably don't get out enough and don't socialise equally with the two genders, and two, that there is definitely a huge disparity in the level between VIKING gamer participation and male gamer participation. The only VIKINGS that play games are the ones I read about :)
I'm not personally convinced that action, killing, shooting, driving *exclude* general VIKINGS from the gaming market. I'm fairly convinced the way it is portrayed and experienced does have an effect though on their level of interest. VIKINGS can easily enjoy mind numbing action movies, which contain passive forms of interactive violence. The same should translate to games, but it hasn't yet.
I read once (I think Stevie Case said something along these lines, I have mixed levels of respect for her) that VIKING gamers tend not to try and try again. VIKINGS find it hard to stick at games, whereas a guy sees it as a macho/masochistic challenge. Alot of the fault of games at the moment is still - as far as I believe - inherit in the design/marketing. We market games "as a copy of game x" (generally innovative products don't get published) and hence alot of the games also assume a certain amount of gamer knowledge straight off the bat....a certain level of "familiarity" with concept is assumed.
The failure of games to penetrate the VIKING market speaks quite wholly of the focus of the product at the design *and* marketing level - they are produced for "seasoned" gamers or those with seasoned gamer friends to guide them through it all. Because VIKINGS are such a small percentage of the market it's not likely to grow in a great hurry.
When games finally start to set out on their own paths and get presented in a far more widely-acceptable format rather than relying on the interfaces/game structures from the past, and the marketing "guru"s start realising games need to be presented on their own merits, and not based on comparisons with other games and/or meaningless objective statistics, then we'll get a more balanced playing field."
Scott.
quote:Originally posted by Malus
Tomboys aren't average females? What is average mr Human Physc Expert? Are tomboys freaks or something?
Tomboys are different from average girls because of there interests. What tomboys are into are typically reserved for males. That's why i said they don't count, because the interests of a tomboy are more closely related to a male, then they are to your 'average female'. Everyone knows that.
quote:Originally posted by Malus
I find sexist comments like yours offensive on a personal level because your stupidity helps to create and maintain the superficial social rift between the sexes.
MY comments aren't sexist, im just tryna keep my posts brief and 2 da point. Saying tomboy is the quickest way to do that, rather than saying 'females with male interests'.
quote:Originally posted by Malus
You might not have a women you love in your life but I have several and if you attack them you attack me.
good for you, but where does this come into the scheme of things here? We're talking bout games. Maybe you should check out jerryspringer.com for those issues.
Heck, I would've sworn that there were some hot chicks at the AGDC last year, and those are the chicks that make games!, so there's bound to be more hot one's that play games..
Although that really is a one sided view of things. I know plenty of chicks that paly games, but usually they play their brothers games, and usually they're on consoles. Although I've met a few that dabble with some RTS and FPS on PC... Not counting Jacana ;-)
quote:Originally posted by Daemin
Not counting Jacana ;-)
Your just saying I don't count because I'm a tomboy *tease*
Seriously, tho... I would fall into the "tomboy" class. But.... I put on makeup. I do my hair. I love to shop. I LOVE shoes. I can nag. I do whine. I DO cry.
Just because I like what I like doesn't make me less of a female. Stop trying to make me less as a gender because I don't fit into your preconcevied notions of what I should be.
Whoa.. this is going the wrong way really fast.
sho-nuff's posts are not sexist/racist/whatever, they are merely a bit crude. He was mearly trying to identify the asscoiated demographic. I feel people are getting a little too sensitive here. You can't just say "female gamers", the term "gamers" generally means people that spend most of their free time playing games, there aren't that many female gamers, and alot of them (AFAIK) are probably in the "tomboy" demographic, and play all the games that are already there. Also, I'm sure that female demographic will also contain many male gamers, I'm pretty sure that I would fit into this myself.
And his comment was "super hot chicks", which of course means models and porn stars.
It is my understanding that "female game players" (i.e. females not already associated with a male demographic) tend to play more involved and intellectual games, something a little more involved then "It moved! Shoot it!". I was just reading in gdmag that The Sims was very popular among "females game players", and is in fact largely responsible for an increased number of "female game players" as well as online gamming.
On a lighter note I know what female gamers want... ME. Yeah baby!
(Sorry, I just had to ;)
quote:Originally posted by redwyre
sho-nuff's posts are not sexist/racist/whatever, they are merely a bit crude. He was mearly trying to identify the asscoiated demographic.It is my understanding that "female game players" (i.e. females not already associated with a male demographic) tend to play more involved and intellectual games, something a little more involved then "It moved! Shoot it!".
I mentioned this at the start of this debate, I will repeat it now and after that people can continue to ignore it and I will ignore them. This post is not directed at redwyre specificly, but rather anyone who falls into this catagory.
Dictionary Definition of Sexism (adj Sexist)
a) An attitude that Stereotypes people according to sex, b) Any descrimination based on the supposed differences between the sexes.
Simple isn't it. So when you say "Girls like/don't like x" You are sexest. You can be comfortable with that, there is little I can do about it(Other then forming the opinion that your understading of human psychology is very limited oh and that you are a bigot). But don't hide behind the "Im not Sexist statement, the definition is clear, and if you breach it, then you are Sexist. Deal with it.
Pantmonger
(who has more female friends that play violent computer games then male friends that do.)
quote:Originally posted by redwyre
And his comment was "super hot chicks", which of course means models and porn stars.
Yup, thats it.
I think i should start posting longer ones cuz peoples conceptions of what and how i write can really miss the mark.[xx(][xx(]
quote:]Originally posted by Jacana
Just because I like what I like doesn't make me less of a female. Stop trying to make me less as a gender because I don't fit into your preconcevied notions of what I should be.
No it doesn't make u less of a female, and i didn't mean to imply that, if that's what you interpreted from my post, then it was misread.
So to all the girls who feel like ripping me a new one, go easy on me cuz the last thing i wanna do is upset women. I lurv women, and i think it would be good if i could even get my girlfriend to sit with me and go a round on the box or whatever. But with the way i see it, average girls just don't see the point to playing games. Which is why i said....
quote:]Originally posted by the one sumea females hate (apparently)
What would make them (average females) play a game, or better yet, what would compel them to browse in the computer game section of the store or shopping centre?
Everytime im at the store - EB, Target, Big W or wherever - %99 of the time i will not see a female within the gaming area, and when i do, it's not just me that does this, but everyone! in the stores will turn and look at the girl checking out the games. In Australia, it's the equivelant of seeing a guy with a 'monsta afro' on the streets. U just gotta look cuz it's out of the ordinary.
Now be honest, most guys here would agree on this right? so what's the problem!? Why hate on me, when i am simply stating the obvious?[?][?]
quote:Originally posted by sho-nuff
'Tomboys' need not apply, there upbringing excludes them from being 'average females'.
quote:Originally posted by sho-nuff
No it doesn't make u less of a female, and i didn't mean to imply that, if that's what you interpreted from my post, then it was misread.
My last response on this. You did try to make me - or any other "tomboy" out there - less.
Maybe its that the "average female population" has shifted and we don't need to be Holly Homemaker anymore. That we are finally breaking out of the "girls play with barbie and boys play with hot wheels" mold.
What I do for entertainment, what I wear or more so do not wear, what I say... Those things do not define me - nor should they define any female - as a female.
I think I already said quite a bit about what female gamers want. A bit part of it is interation in the game. Either with other players or with bots (MMOG's or Sims). I think co-op is also high on the list. I play Battlefield and love it. At least in team vs team mode there is still an amount of co-op in the team itself. I liked Doom and Quake because it was co-op. Its too bad most of the FPS like that went to pvp as the main game play. It lost me on the whole genre really. Games that involve some amount of strategy are good. Keeps you thinking about things.
Thats some of what I - as a female - would like from a game.
I wish that there would be more games where you can play co-op campaigns, this would rock for lans, as at one of my lans we played through all of Serious Sam the Second Encounter in a 4 way coop, starting from about 3 am, and it was hell fun, even though it was just shoot and click (we were that tired too :-).
I think it's kind of an untapped market, having a co-op campaign that can be played with up to 4 people.
quote:"To be honest I don't know (on even an acquaintance level) any VIKINGS that play games - or go and buy games, I've never seen a VIKING in a computer game store (except behind the counter). This says two things - one I probably don't get out enough and don't socialise equally with the two genders, and two, that there is definitely a huge disparity in the level between VIKING gamer participation and male gamer participation. The only VIKINGS that play games are the ones I read about :)
This is ridiculous, I'm not saying anything for *fact* in my post (which you have modified accordingly) - I was giving a perspective based on real experiences, it's a perspective, get over it. - I honestly don't know what you are trying to say here - pls explain...
Sure there is plenty in my post which implies there is some difference between female gamers and male gamers....that's not the case, anyone playing games is still just a gamer, regardless of their gender. What I'm trying to alude to is that we aren't accomodating the general female market (that is not yet playing games, and hence not a gamer per se) in our games....the "female gamer" probably more refers to a general section of the market that we ignore because we make our games too elitist...
Honestly, it's frustrating to have such unintelligible crap thrown my way. You could've made your point in about two words, and that would've been suffice to show your points' real worth.
And pantmonger, I have to disagree - dictionaries don't define everything perfectly. If you want to stick by your wording of sexism, then you'll have to realise that not all cases of "sexism" are bad. Stereotyping is only 'bad' when negativity is associated with it - no one here is saying anything negative about chicks, it's well known that there isn't as many female gamers as male - there is good motivation to have "sexist" debates to figure out where we've gone wrong with this....it would be something of an ironic twist if you were attaching a meaning of negativity to the word 'sexist' which you claim to be fundamentally "stereotyping"...if you follow what I mean. Labelling people is an unfortunate fate for us all.
If it were truly the case that people were people and females were exactly the same as males (and I'm not talking about chicks being better or worse than guys or whatever, I'm talking about characteristics) then there would be a far more even number of males/female gamers.
Stereotyping is inescapable - it's part of how we operate as humans...we try to define and categorise, it's how our brains work. Forming negative attitudes based on those boxes is when things go wrong, not when the 'boxes' are examined/sorted.
There is a time and place to debate prejudice/stereotyping, and then there's a time and place to debate "what female gamers want" which i believe is what this topic is about - it's not about whether or not we are forming sexist attitudes.
quote:Originally posted by Maitrek
[quoteIf it were truly the case that people were people and females were exactly the same as males (and I'm not talking about chicks being better or worse than guys or whatever, I'm talking about characteristics) then there would be a far more even number of males/female gamers.
There is a time and place to debate prejudice/stereotyping, and then there's a time and place to debate "what female gamers want" which i believe is what this topic is about - it's not about whether or not we are forming sexist attitudes.
You are reading a fact and drawing a false conclusion. The Fact is that male gamers outnumber female games. However this does not mean that males and females must be different. (Just because you stick feathers in your butt does not make you a chicken) All it means is that society has treated differently and forced into different roles the different genders.
As for the time and the place to discuss this (leaving asside that you rebutted my statment then tried to say "but lets not hear anymore about this") The thread is "what female games want", thus the sexist and bigoted attitudes that get in the way of giving women what they want, ie the same thing as men, are central to the issue. Women want to play the same games as men, but they do not want society to treat them as unusual or Tomboys for doing so.
For god sake look at this thread, look at the negative sterio typing terms that have been used to describe women that enjoy the games on the market at the momnet. People are basicly saying,
"What is it you want from a game, female?"
"I would like a violent FPS"
"Oh you are one of those female gamers, but what do you think real females, you know normal, average females want from games"
If you can't figure out whats wrong with that go get your head checked.
I am sick of this tread, I am sick of the old bigoted arguments being re-used to back up wrong assumptions generated by misreading data. People are varied, stop pigeon holeing them.
Pantmonger
quote:"What is it you want from a game, female?"
"I would like a violent FPS"
"Oh you are one of those female gamers, but what do you think real females, you know normal, average females want from games"
I just like to say that if you'd been paying close attention to what I have been saying on this thread - I've never implied that there is anything to suggest violence is what is detracting females from playing - INCLUDING females not currently playing games (I think in some cases it can be a factor) - although I have implied that females may be interested in other subject matter, I haven't excluded males from that idea either (I'm very interested in less-violent games myself). Nor have I ever implied female gamers are different from "average females" ... all I've said is that there is alot of females out there who are not playing games because we don't design the way our games work (and not their content) to be more beginner friendly. I never said that this didn't apply to male gamers either, however I did refer to someone else's idea that females often don't pick up games because they may not be persistent enough - I'm sure there are plenty of males out there that are in this category as well...I generalise more than I stereotype - to say that a particular group of people tends towards a particular type of behaviour is different from saying "that person is part of that group, and hence they must display this kind of behaviour"
Once again I have to be specific about my interpretation of why there is not such a large percentage of female gamers in the market, because people are too excited by the prospect of arguing over small details.
"Games at this point in time are designed with a certain amount of assumed knowledge, a familiarity with the content - and the ways to interface with that content. Too many games follow the same interaction mechanisms, that work for a core audience. This reliance on familiarity and 'skill' from the player makes our games non-beginner friendly. At this point in time, there is a small number of females playing games compared to males. Games that aren't 'beginner friendly' require persistence, help, and a network of support to hold a player's hand while they learn the ropes. Most often females closest friends in their early teenage years are females, due to the number of female gamers out there, it is less likely that a newbie female gamer who wants to play games will have help and support around them in their social group to guide them through the early days. It's more likely for males on the other hand to have friends or close family that can help them out, or even talk with them and converse on the subject of computer games. Guys will struggle as much as girls with the early days of gaming, but however - they will most likely have broader support for their hobby. For this, girls often get alienated if they do stick with games, whereas guys don't suffer quite the same fate. Games don't need to create female-oriented content, they need to create smoother neater interfaces and gameplay that assume less from the player at the outset, and allow for a far broader audience (male and female) in general to play them."
I hope you are happy now, I only wish I didn't have to say things twice.
There are other factors I think that are involved - there will always be differences in the ways a girl and a boy are brought up, this is probably also pertinent, but will only spark more cries of 'sexism' even though I'm referring more about parenting and what they perceive to be the 'right' and 'wrong' things to encourage in the different genders...I don't think, however, that this would be something constructive to talk about/debate - however talking about how **** our games are for beginners is definitely useful.
On top of that - I still stick by my assumption that we focus too much on a style of literary conflict that appeals *less* to females than it does to males - regardless of the sexist implications of that statement. I'm not saying that this makes females that appreciate that style of conflict less "female" I'm saying that it is one of the factors that makes them a ***gamer***, and not a ***non-gamer***. There are guys *and* gals out there that are begging for different styles of game who may or may not currently be gamers themselves.
Females and Males ARE different. From (most obviously) anatomy, to more complex stuff like hormones and chemicals in the brain and body and other stuff that I'm not qualified to talk about. There are times when treating people based on sex is wrong, and there are times where it is right.
Noone here is saying anything bad about females. We are just tring to figure out why they play less games then males.
Have a look at these:
http://www.gamegirlz.com/articles/ion_001.htm
http://www.gamegirlz.com/articles/quakewomen.shtml
http://www.magespace.net/rat/female.html
http://www.digital-girl.com/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=8 (I actually beta tested for EVE, and I was kinda shocked to find a female-only corp with quite a few members)
Here's one for you Pantmonger: http://www.womengamers.com/articles/allfemtour.html
With regards to co-op, internet gaming killed it off (co-op over the net is more complicated), but these days it seems to be starting to make a come back...
quote:There are times when treating people based on sex is wrong, and there are times where it is right.
With the exception of birth and pregnancy I disagree. But I have also had enough. This thread is one big flame pit, (due as much to me as anyone else), nothing changes.
I will not be posting in in this thread again. Sorry to anyone I ticked off, this is a subject I feel strongly about and I have been fighting it that same way I would if someone tried to tell me some racist comment was justified.
Pantmonger
Shonuff: You really are a little simple aren't you.