I've been privy to hearing a few stories now and then about quality of life issues in the local games development industry, so it's always a nice change to hear someone championing the cause for a better way for our game developers. Chris Mosely, CEO of Red Tribe, has frequently spoken out against the industry norm of pushing absurd hours onto developers, and in a new post on Screenplay, reiterates his thoughts on that idea...
Chris said: "I can't really speak for other studios, we tend to be really insular here, but the stereotypical way of doing things is disastrous. Absolutely disastrous."You pay a top-quality engineer a large amount of money to do a job, and then you get him to work more than eight hours a day, effectively you are turning someone who is really talented and really good into someone who is barely functioning. It doesn't take much to take someone who is really good into someone who is completely exhausted and useless to you.
I think that's excellent to local studio heads speak out about quality of life in the game industry.
Excessive working hours - which Jason focuses on in his blog post - is but one of a host of unethical working conditions we've seen game developers face in recent times. For example, some studios even seem to think that their staff have no right to privacy, taking it upon themselves to read through their staff's email and messaging logs (without daring to state that this is company policy, of course). Any company that spies on its staff like this displays a clear contempt for their talent and deserves no future in a professional creative industry.
Well done to Red Tribe for taking a public stand for ethical working environments in the game industry.
It's not even an ethical issue. These practices makes good business sense. It's that simple.
Having your employees burnt out is not good business sense.
burnt out = cant work cant deliver. Everyone fails
Spying on staff happens in every industry; generally it is related to Corporate Espionage; as an Engineer who moved from the Defence Force I can aprecite and understand. I think the whole point of this article is in relation to burning staff out. I know that where I work it is the norm to do 80-90 hours per week as an Artist (forget the Engineers) without any thought; not even a comment and no payrise mu friend. Sometimes we don't even get paid on time oh but we do have bonuses which do not even come close to what we have actually worked ....and no Next Gen to add to the CV to boot......then you hear the crap that was stated on the 7.30 report last week but most of the studio heads and you would think that Australia was in a games backwater. Stop blaming the Federal and State Governments for bad business practice and profiteering. Start looking after the people that make your Company
Ratbag was well known for having crunch periods occurring multiple times on every project they had.
They even had an award for "The most consecutive number of hours worked" that was given out at the Christmas party each year.
One time the crunch was too much for one poor guy who was so exhausted that he lost concentration and crashed his car late one night after leaving work.
Hmm, I interviewed someone who gave there reason for leaving Redtribe as "working 16 hour days for about six weeks, and as a reward were taken to lunch and given the afternoon off". This wasn't in the last year though so maybe things have changed.
I've been with Redtribe for a number of years. I've never seen anything like that.
No company is perfect but I think Redtribe is on the right track. I hope more companies start doing the same.
This is nice to hear... BUT let's be realistic.. name me a game that has been created which is a AAA title and got over a 90 metacritic rating without one person doing some overtime? Another thing is .. what sort of development time are we talking about for Redtribes games? If you have more than a year in development time to make a game then I think it's possible to not need overtime.. but how often does that happen these days.. I do agree that excessive overtime leads to being non-productive.. BUT I don't think it's possible to make a great game these days in normal work hours when you have meetings and are bothered by people all day... to get in a zone and put some love into your work I feel you need to do some overtime.. I'm not saying that working til 1am every night is a good thing but in this industry 9 - 5 is unrealistic. 9 - 8pm is more like it I feel..
9 - 5 is unrealistic in any industry these days. My girlfirend works for a large city law firm and she generally does 8 - 6 with half an hour for lunch.
just want to clarify, i think Pre-Production phase of development can be 9 - 5. But crunch time can be managed with some 9 - 8pm times.. To be honest I like to do overtime as I feel i can get more done after 5pm.. also I don't want to go home sometimes at 5.. i'm into my work and want to spend longer making what I am doing better.. If your someone that has no meetings all day.. no responsibilities.. just some tasks someone else gave you to do and you have more than a year in development time then your different! that's just my 2 cents.
If you have to work large amounts of overtime either you are not working effectively enough between 9-5 and should look at improving your work patterns, or your employer has set an unrealistic schedule to begin with to which you sould seek a better employer!
I work for a company, large company in Melbourne who now has 4-5 ex Redtribe employees. Each have said its not a place you can escape from without being scarred. One said during their employment there they found they were working redicolous hours, like 9am to 4am and found this article a bit hypocritical of the company.
There are 2 types of overtime Jojo.
1) The type of overtime you're talking about where you take pride in your work and want to put in a bit of extra time for your own personal satisfaction. As this is a free country, you are well within your rights to do that.
2) Mandated overtime that comes because the publishers cant decide what they want or because management don't know how to properly design or schedule or plan a game, but they still have to hit both a street date & a required budget.
The second type is the one that people are pissed off about, and is one that happens far too often to be accidental. What's happening is that many companies (not all) offset the risk of the project - both in terms of time & money -onto the employees with little to no reward. Know anyone who's been promised bonuses for doing crunch? Know anyone who's got them?
Also, AAA games don't come about because of individuals working overtime. While I acknowledge that sometimes overtime happens on those projects, quality games come about because of strong creative direction, competent production, and reasonable budgets. Also, pick a bunch of crap games - I reckon most of them did crunch too, but that didn't do anything to improve the quality.
Like I said though, if you want to do overtime, feel free, nobody is going to stop you, but if other people don't, then why should they be forced to by management or peer pressure from other members of the team.
No.7 Though its common for people to exaggerate their crunch time stories. If its true that people have been doing 16hr days 6 days per week then thats just crazy. With 24hrs in a day that leaves 8hrs, then take out travel time, shower, getting dressed, shopping etc... leaves less than 8hrs sleep.
The most I ever worked were 14hr days 5 days per week plus usually half a day on Saturday and sometimes Sunday and I was barely getting 8hrs sleep.
There are over 60 of us here in this office that you're defaming #14. I suppose you think all of us are in on some huge conspiracy right? Ridiculous!
I think 60+ people would know if they were working more than 8 hours a day or not. You're insulting all of us with your dumb ass comments. Some people do work longer hours from time to time. I work 8.5 hours on average but I choose to. There's no pressure to do so it's up to the individual.
There were some guys let go here, but I never saw any of them do more than 7 hours a day. I can write a list of the guys that were let go if you like. I can understand why they were given the boot and we're much better off for it.
Can we get back to the constructive comments please? This isn't a popularity contest. Red Tribe has been trying a different approach over the last couple of years and it's working.
It's very sad when a company like Red Tribe is trying to do the right thing and you get comments like #14. It's a real bloody shame.
The Tribe Rocks ;)
Here in BigWorld most people work regular hours. Some folks do work extra hours, but do it out of their own choice. I've noticed that management do tend to value those employees over people that work 9 to 5, but you've got appreciate their reasons.
We may work longer hours on the weeks before a trade show or other important deadline, but that's the exception and not the rule.
Maybe we can be like this because we are in the middleware business.
In reponse to #14 there is a reason why these guys dont work at Redtirbe... Go work it out. 60+ people cant be wrong and we also get and extra three weeks of leave every year at Christmas. Do you get that?
13.. in a perfect world 9 - 5 in the video games business is possible. As stated by some here there are many types of overtime. The ones caused by crazy scheduling are unfortunately common in this industry.. but i understand why.. it is difficult to schedule the type of tasks in games development.. if it's something that you have done before and your basically doing exactly the same thing then your pretty sure your estimates are right.. but in many cases , especially now with Next-Gen estimating a project exactly is almost impossible.. basically we all have a deadline and we try the best we can to get it done. To go and say that 9 - 5 for every company in the games industry is possible if they are all very efficient with their work patterns is a stretch in my opinion.
Oh bullcrap that Redtribe have been doing something 'different' for the last couple of years. And don't you dare claim that some people were 'let go', because there were plenty that quit due to the terrible conditions. Plus, I think it's rather funny that someone labeled as 'employee' offers to make a 'list' of people who were let go...sounds like something a CEO would say...
Maybe Redtribe have changed, maybe they do have 60 people now, but every studio goes through crunch time, overtime, weekends, etc. It's part of the job so get over it. It's always been like it, and it will always be like it.
another thing I think is interesting.. I feel some people are assuming that those that do overtime are doing it because of bad scheduling and bad working patterns which is sometimes not the case. I like to work ahead of schedule and do more than what is asked of me.. in the end by putting in the extra hours I move on to other areas and help out the team to finish the game. I am valued highly at the company because of this.. and I feel every company needs people like this.. if they were all 9 - 5er's I don't think the game would get done on time or maybe at all..
20# I'm sure there are MANY reasons why those people don't work at Redtribe anymore and each individual case would be different. Also, one or two posts can hardly sum up the overall opinion of 60+ people as you claim. Even if it did they COULD still be wrong. You're generalizations make you sound very ignorant, even naive. I'd expect a more rational, open-minded train of thought from an 'Old Hand'. ;-)
Hey 22 Of course Redtribe are doing something different; we make next gen. Do you? ahahahahahah
To #22. You just sound like an angry guy. You don't have any of your facts straight which probably means your just making it up as you go.
Red Tribe have done something different and it worked. I know because I've worked in two other Melbourne studios. It's not just the working hours either, there's a lot more to it.
You can spread whatever lies you want. Doesn't change the facts ;)
#26 - I'm an ex-employee who quit
#25 - Do you think Red Tribe is the only studio in the world making 'next gen' (as you call it)?
Employee and Old Hand seem a bit suspicious to me. Most companies in Oz are doing next gen now.
Why have the posts from ex-Redtribe staff just been deleted? They have most certainly made their staff work 80+ hour weeks frequently in the past, wether or not they do now, I can attest to that from someone I know who was most certainly not let go, but resigned in extreme frustration after giving them 2 years of hard work.
I find this sickening. I really think Chris should try using his real name for a change instead of posting under multiple aliases.
Even for a CEO, this is bad behaviour.
From what I have heard of people who have worked there, are still working there, or just know the studio well. Saying that RT are the pinnacle that the local community has to offer, are the most ethical, and are working on "next-gen."
Well... that sounds like BS to me quite frankly.
Judging by the response this news item has had. I think someone has stepped right into their own bull-sh*t. :D
I think it's great to be having these debates. Let's try and make them constructive.
It's true that when we first started the company that we worked some crazy hours. We didn't hide that fact from anyone. We lost a very talented artist during that period. We gave him his break into the game's industry. We still discuss this period in the office quite regularly. A lot of the guys from those early days are still with us today. We have not had to work like that for a number of years and it was this experience that made us start looking for a better way forward. The debate continues.
In the very early years we were not in a position to compete with the salaries and conditions being offered by our competitors. We simply didn't have the resources (money or people). We did however offer a unique opportunity for people that wanted to break into the industry. You don't really have much more than that to offer when you are starting from scratch. Today we are the ones that are able to offer the better conditions and salaries.
Having worked crazy hours in the past doesn't mean that is the only way forward. There is still much more that can be done, we still have a very long way to go. I can tell you that during those long hours in the early days of Redtribe I was also in the office working alongside my team. That's one of the reasons I have tried to reduce working hours. It's just as painful for me as my staff working longer hours. Nobody wants it.
Redtribe has been in operation for around 4.5 years. We've had 9 people leave us during this period and we've fired 4 people. Its very painful and difficult letting someone go, we don't take it lightly and it costs the company a great deal of time and money. It's very unfortunate when people leave or when people are let go but it's a necessary part of building a cohesive working team. We now have 68 staff and growing with another 10 people joining the company.
We have achieved much better results by limiting working hours. It's not a hard and fast rule. We don't tell people to go home (unless they are working crazy hours). But we do what we can to limit working hours. As has been stated by others, it makes good sense.
The way we have achieved this is a discussion for another day. You could probably write an essay on it. It involves every aspect of our business. We talk about improving how we operate on a daily basis. We're always looking at ways of making things better and we have a positive message for the local industry. There is a better way.
Chris Mosely
Jason Hill (who is unquestionably an excellent journalist), has given Red Tribe free public endorsement as a desirable employer to work for:
"if Screen Play was a young programmer or artist looking to get into the industry, I'd be inclined to send my resume into Red Tribe."
If Red Tribe is in fact not the good employer they've publically claimed to be, they're not only doing a disservice to their current, former and future employees, they've made Jason look bad as well.
If you take the public moral highground, be prepared to accept public scrutiny.
Just bare in mind I wasn't discussing an ethical issue at all. I believe it's actually much better working less hours. Better for business and better for quality. It's not an ethical issue for me at all. It's simply a better way of doing things. It's not about morality. We believe it's the difference between making a good game and a great game.
I think Jason was right on the money. Of course our appraoch will open a floodgate of debate and no doubt we will have our detractors. Let's have a constructive debate on the issue.
I'm more than happy to discuss all these issue in an open debate if requested :)
Chris Mosely
Studies have shown that pushing insane hours is actually counterproductive in software development. The status quo in the games industry where people are forced to work long hours for fear of being replaced by the many others (most often juniors and new graduates) that would be happy to take his job, has got to stop. Churning and burning out new young talent screws the entire industry where experience is extremely valuable.
I think most everyone expects there to be some overtime at the end of the project. Nobody's going to complain that vocally about putting in some extra hours every day and a couple of weekends for a few of weeks around a beta milestone. In fact, most people I've met are more than happy to do it. It's when it drags on for months with no end in sight that it's a real problem. I've been fortunate enough to be largely spared that sort of overtime, but many friends at other companies have been drowned in a seemingly never-ending string of lost Saturdays and late nights. In some cases it simply seems to be bad planning - in others it just seems like their management is unwilling to hire the staff they need, and would prefer to bleed loyal employees dry instead. The sad thing is that most of these people don't just quit and go to another company - a lot of them leave the industry for good. And it seems that too many industry people are complacent about this issue, feeling confident that those who 'really love it' will deal with it, and that frequent overtime is just a fact to be dealt with. Isn't this the real reason why everyone keeps complaining about having trouble finding senior staff? And yet you have no trouble getting eager juniors with no family commitments willing to work themselves to the bone just for a chance. Why doesn't that crowd of juniors ever make it to senior positions?
Crunch period shouldn't ever be more than a month. It's well-known that after that, the productivity of the employees will drop to the point where overtime just won't do any good anymore. Problems crop up in a projects and sometimes its hard to estimate how long something will take, of course. But maybe instead of just slogging through using the overtime card, maybe the folks in charge should try adjusting their strategy when they hit those roadbumps. Overtime is like a brute-force tactic for dealing with production problems when a more elegant solution would be less painful.
Dear god. Don't talk to me about that three month death march.
It takes a great deal of guts for a company to come out and say this stuff in an open forum. Great stuff.
I don't have any idea if this stuff about Red Tribe is true or not so won't comment on it, but I will say that Krome is fantastic regarding working hours. Sure extra is needed sometimes, but those times are the exception, not the norm.
The working hours are excellent. Don't listen to some AC. It's just pure fantasy. Dribble. Garbage. Nonsense! Good to hear your working conditions are good. It would be great if more companies adopted these practices.
Tribal Person,
Your own COE has already admited that some of these comments are true.
I work for Krome as well. Have to agree with 39. As regards to the posts from Chris Moseley, I know a few red tribe guys who had bad memories of the early days, but at least he's owning up to them.
There will always be overtime in the creative industries, if there wasn't then they would cease being the creative industries.
Creating an original work that defines itself from others requires striving that extra mile, and if the creative mind discovers they have extra time on their hands and find value in what they're doing, will naturally search that extra notch to try better it. It comes down to those who love the job or project they're doing, and those who just happen to love something else just that little bit more. Neither is less or more valuable than the other.
Striving for one thing will always come at the loss of another, and just as those who leave work on time to be with families or another passion miss out on the accomplishment of the current project, those who remain back and focus on the work will miss out on the social experience and refreshment that human beings crave. Those types therefore will soon find their work on future initiatives stagnating, and this is regardless of whether they've been forced to stay back or not. Neither should be made to feel as if they're doing something wrong, they just have different priorities, and those who do strive find just as much worth in their accomplishment of being promoted than the others find in the time they spend with their other pursuits.
It comes down to the individual to decide whether or not that is worth the loss that comes in its place, and up to employers to realise that both personality types are as valuable as the other. Someone who dedicates completely to something becomes blinded by it, and loses focus of the public perception. When I finished one of my novels a year ago I had written it in present tense because in my mind it worked regardless of how I wrote it, but when I had it assessed by someone else who was detached from it they pointed out the flaw, and they were completely right. Even a dream production staff who spend all their time on the project will produce a flawed game because they themselves will not maintain the perceptions of the public.
However, the day the games industry finds itself NOT doing any overtime will be the day individuals stop striving to better it, and the day that games as an entire medium will bottom out and be replaced by something else. Both personalities are needed.
ya your right jackydablunt... totally agree with you. I also think creative industries would cease to exist if everyone did 9 - 5.
On the flipside however its wrong for companies to think less of others because they leave on time. I remember hearing of one of the big places up in Brissie where there was one guy leaving regularly on time when most were staying back, and he was basically reprimanded for it. Now it may be just me, but the moment an employee is no longer being paid for their efforts then well it's their choice if they want to focus upon another aspect of their lives and so be it. Where do these employers get off demanding interference into someones personal life when they offer nothing in return? "Ohh you'll get pizza" or some crap like that, hardly a worthy substitute for an individual's social life.
Yeah its good when people want to willingly stay back and help out because they know something needs to be done, but if employer is reprimanding and not offering anything in return, then thats just childish, it's like some spoiled rich kid stamping his feet. When are these people going to learn how human beings work? When the time comes around the people who put in the yards should be rewarded for doing so, and that alone should be an incentive for others to follow suit. If you get pissed off at people for leaving on time well freaken grow up and pay em then, its not rocket science.
Don't want to be negative but we'll see if the current employees at Tribe have the same attitude once they ship a game. Hope for their sake that everything is on time and and to quality because once the publisher gets a sniff that it ain't, set up a desk for the sit in!
As my old CEO once said 'whatever it takes'!
I dislike overtime that gets to the stupidity point though Jacky. When it gets over a month due to bad management and you feel oblidged to pitch in, but you getting near the point of exhaustion and you have your producer asking you do yet another weekend it becomes the breaking point.
Yeah a month is ludicrous, if a company needs a month of overtime from their staff then there's gotta be something wrong surely. They mustn't be allowing for sick leave or buffer periods when they schedule, or trying to book a next gen game on a prev-gen budget and staff, or they just don't care. A big problem is what the Publisher's expect as well, and those who get asked for an addition by their Publishers and just say yes straight away without any consideration of the cost.
I don't get why that happens, the Publisher's I've dealt with have all been generally nice down to earth guys, and are capable of taking no for an answer. Sure they play the business role and they try to get the most they can for their money, but business men aren't stupid, you can't get to that position by throwing money away, and any with exp would not expect to somehow pull off a next gen game on current gen resources. The only way they'd expect that is if there are a series of yes men in the dev company bowing down and licking their feet on even their slightest spur of the moment suggestion they make. And it can only make it worse surely.
Put yourself in the Publisher's chair, you're spending millions, you ask for a feature, "Yep cool we can do that no problem" ... you think, cool okay well, since that was so easy maybe my money's not being fully used, i'll try them for that idea I came up with in the shower last night, now I'm not so sure of whether it'll work or not, in fact it probably not bring much to the game at all, but I guess i'll put it out there just to get my dollar's worth... "Yep sure we can do that, no probs" From that moment I can only see two options happening, either the Publisher cotton's on to the bullshit and starts becoming suspicious, or they think "Well these guys seem to be having no trouble spending my money, and they're wasting it, I'm gonna start making them work" Then the poor ass production staff get a months overtime.
I agree whole heartedly with this. Managing the publisher's expectations is a very important part of the process. More features doesn not mean a better game. It's the developers responsibility to be responsible and communicate the pros and cons effectively to the publisher so better decisions can be made. Often this is not done well at all.
There's an article I recently read by Chief Marketing Officer Steve Allison (Midway Home Entertainment) that puts it quite well. I quote.
"
The key to good game development is to prove out what is both fun about your game and critical to its success--but let the rest go. One or two elements, done spectacularly, is exponentially more likely to yield a blockbuster than fifteen average features. Look at last holiday's hit, Gears of War. Its feature set is not very deep at all, but it does what it does exceptionally well: stop-and-pop gunplay with use of cover, executed to perfection, with best of breed in visuals and core technology.
If you do this type of pre-production correctly, the actual production process should be shorter; major levels can be built efficiently via outsourcing to specifications determined during pre-production; and the development schedule can be projected with less error, making your game's time-to-market more of a known quantity. And when you've got the concept and timing in the bag, thanks to your well-engineered pre-production process, everything else about your game's development now comes down to good old-fashioned execution, based on things that you've already proven with your vertical slice.
"
Although I don't agree with everything here I definately would agree that 20(percent) of your efforts will yeald 80(percent) of your value. So you can be smart in the way features are selected and created. For example, all stakeholders should be involved in a decision about a new feature or a change of a given feature. It's the only way you can manage it responsibly.
I can send Souri the entire interview with Steve if requested. It's a good read. Chris Mosely