I have seen this from quite a few people using this workflow for their entries into the Sumea comp.
The method I?m talking about is building their low poly model, an asset that is going in game and as such is built towards animating correctly, then bringingg it into zbrush to produce the high poly lastly.
Why do people do this? The only possible benefit I can think of is speed factor of it. Building a low poly base that subdivides well and building a low poly in game asset are two different kinds of philosophy/method. The two really can?t be
combined IMO.
The workflow I, as well as a lot of others use, is build the high poly first. Building a low poly base in MAX/etc, that is specifically designed to be later subdivided and brought into zbrush for finer details (or even JUST subdivided) create the high poly source model. THEN create a low poly in game asset based
around the high poly from scratch.
The benefit to using this workflow is as follows-
*The high poly source*
- The placement of a row of edges effects how it will smooth out when subdivided; EG- To create a sharp edge, place multiple loops of edges close together.
-Creating each of the characters objects as separate meshes eliminates the "moulded plastic toy soldier" effect. EG- Each of the characters objects looks like a separate element and not joined/moulded onto the character. Plus "floaty bits" are just easier/more convenient.
-No need to worry about building it for animation since it won?t be animated. This makes it easier since you don?t have to build it to deform.
-A focus on building it out of quads and possible the odd N-gon. NO TRIANGLES PLEASE! Since they usually result in a pinched look when it?s subdivided.
-Building a high first allows for a bit more experimentation in terms of the characters design. If you?re well into building your high or even finished, you can see what the end result will look like (since the high will closely resemble your normal mapped character when completed). You might spot a flaw in your design. No worries just delete whatever is bugging you and build something else. However if you've built the low poly first then brought it into zbrush, it would require a lot more reworking to fix the design problem.
*The low poly, in game asset*
-Triangles are allowed! Since you don?t have to worry about subdivision you can throw in a triangle wherever you want. This can help lower your polycount, so more polies could be distrubed to more important areas
-Poly flow is now important! Stuff like making sure the model will deform well and its topology is nice and clean. This didn?t matter in the high but is obviously important in the low poly in game model.
-Building around the high poly source is very helpful since you can use the high as sort of 3D referance guide.
-IMHO Zbrush is best used as a finally pass and not solely used to create a high poly model. Now this is more open to personal opinion then anything else, but a 3D program with its full repertoire of tools to build a high poly model, would be easier to use then Zbrush's more limited tools.
Some of this is just subject to personal preference I know but this is something that has been on my mind for a while now and I felt like ranting/bring it up. Maybe some people just weren?t aware of the pros/cons of either methods, but as I mentioned its something that I?ve seen a bit lately.
I?m open to hear people?s opinions that are against this workflow, by all means enlighten me! :)
Well, that brings this (most likely) long winded, confusing rant to an end. If there is something that someone would like more of an explanation I?m happy to do so. Also, other peoples input is more then welcome so don?t be shy!
all about pro's and con's, and the fastest way to get the best looking thing -- normally I try and get a single mesh to a middle area and then branch it into two assets (nicely subdividing source for high poly, then create my low using that same base). This gives me a middle point to work from with both high and low so I can get the best asset to use in the right situation. Also means I have a starting point for my low that I can match to my high since I have both assets readily available.
Also don't forget that zbrush and mudbox can be quite handy in moving mid-res geometry around, not just high. Since you can work retro-actively and go back down to subd-1 you can always re-export that and use it as a low base to start working from again.
Wow, my formatting on my original post has gone. Oh well, hopefully its still readable :P
Neffy, yeah I thought that it was mostly likely an inexperience thing. ZBrush interface isnt tooooo bad, keep at it :)
Styles, yeah i forgot to make mention about having a mesh as a middle area. Lol, i hate using zbrush (never used Mudbox :( ) to move/edit anything dramatically. But Im not that experienced in the app so far.
you can avoid that "plastic mould" look by masking and using the alpha grabdoc to stamp detail onto the surface.
the first normal mapped character i made was for a mod and i was asked to model/uv the low poly first so the animator could have something to rig and fudge around with. i also didnt have ZMapper then, so i thought that was the only way to get a normal map out of zbrush
i ended up modelling/UVing the low poly character for the animator then duplicating that model and changing it slightly to work with zbrush. it wasnt that painful and it turned out to be quick. of course the problem with that is the normal map wont fit the original low poly exactly, but it was better than subDing a partly triangulated mesh
i had polyboost for a while and that made it 100 times easier to make the low poly last.
now i just use the really simple base mesh from zbrush and optimise that. i really wish max had a shrinkwrap modifier though :(
- David
shika2006-09-21 02:32:14
Hey Makk,
Shika pretty much hit the nail on the head with the reason we here are almost always in a position where we must get the low polygon model signed off first. Production environments and tight deadlines often dictate that the low needs to be sent to the animators for animating as soon as possible.
Remembering that each day they wait while you build your high poly model they could be making 1 or 2 animations for that character. 1 week late - could mean most of the characters animation list complete.
Having said that, I've used both ways now and Ive found almost ALWAYS youll need a final pass on the low tweaking the normal map and tweaking verts / UVW's to ensure its the best looking character possible, regardless of which way you get there.
So I'm at a moot point with regards to whats actually better. Weve been exposed to similar pipelines involving getting Low's done first so we are pretty comfortable with that method - its pretty much natural.
Weve come to know that method of workflow fairly well and understand the areas in design and concept that will come through tricky or require extra attention, so I just carry that through.
I guess ultimately what it comes down to is practise and repetition with the method that most suits you.
even when im not considering animators, i still am just more comfortable doing the low poly first. im not using Zbrush. i make a low poly, in all its glory, getting more and more practise every time i do it, then i duplicate it, and subdivide the hell out of it, making the high poly.
then i unwrap the low poly after making any changes that were invented whilst doing the highpoly, the extract the normal maps in the usual way.
regardless, if i wanted to make a highpoly mesh first, id have to start by making a low poly(ish) mesh to base it off, thats just how i work. so with that in mind, i might as well just make it a full on low poly mesh, as clean and as topologically perfect as i can manage.
we each have our preferences, but i just cant see myself ever doing it any other way than low poly first. nothing else make as much sense to me
That is my exact work process currently, I still have yet to use Zbrush on a finished piece so I find it simpler in max to work like that.
I am thinking the next model I do I will switch it around and do highpoly first in Zbrush or mudbox just to try something different and learn more.
I have read briefly about the poly boost method for doing the low poly and I realy want to give it a shot... ahhh just so many options and techniques to try I guess.
Great thread Makk, My 2 cents, Always try to keep an open mind and be on the look out for techniques that you can use. (like this thread)
My work flow:
-Low Poly Modelling
-UV Unwrap
-Mid Poly then export .obj to Zbrush
-Paint Masking texture for Zbrush
-Zbrush Modelling then export normal map with Zmapper -Texture Painting and Rig
Usually there's a lot of hiccups and tweaking along the way. But that's just me, I'm sure there are better ways.
Hmmm...The best workflow- in an ideal world... i,e the one that gives the best results is definately build high model-low model.
Fitting a hi-res model to a low res model is time consuming and inhibits art direction, and can ultimately choke an animation pipeline, since work may need to be done over if changes need to be made. If you want control over art direction and quality I highly recommend not signing off a low model before the high- you get a bad raycast and something has to be revised- so your going to edit, remap and re-export. Thats cash bleeding out and poorer results.
I recently saw a project loose enough money to buy a small house through this sort of workflow recently. Not pretty.
That said, the high model doesnt have to have every detail added, it can be about 60 to 70% there, but you need to have all the masses in place- things like where bucklestraps, guns and holsters meet. Studs, buckles and surface details do not need to be in place.
Ultimately though, your workflow may not be perfect, but it will get you over the finish line, which is what counts.
noodles
I go about the same way as you except I don't use zbrush, mudbox then I grab the mid poly and high poly change them into .obj then of to xnormal if it's for a character and I'll just end up continuasly tweeking my normal map till I have it just right
I am someone that still
I am someone that still exports the low-res into zbrush instead of a mid res version(or what ever should be exported for better results). I am assuming that is why the quality of my normals are not great.
I really want to learn how to do it the mid res way as it may help with more defined areas but I am worried about losing my UVs, or is it that as long as you have unwrapped the character it should not cause any issues? I have never done it this way so I am just curious.
If I had known what I know now I would have started with my high poly first. I didn?t do too much searching for the proper way to do a normal map I just knew I need a high poly and I needed a low poly and since I love doing low poly work I started with that. It didn?t help when I asked one of my tutors what should I start with that they ummmmed and ahhhed for awhile and then told me to do what I liked best first :P /sigh
I was unable to use Zbrush it just hurt my brain but I have seen the plastic mould effect and I?m quite happy that some pieces of my high model I made separate from the body in max, which eliminated that problem for me. Even just reading what you said now if I had known a few of the pros and cons I would have had a much nicer workflow in the end. Ah the dilemma?s of a student well there?s always my next normal mapped model!