Finished school... Now what???

Might sound simple but I find this approach quite nifty. If your torn by two decisions and cant decide what you want. Then flip a coin. Heads one, tails the other. Whatever of the two you get say to yourself "Yes. I?ll do this." then let it ster for a while in your mind. If your having doubts go the other choice.

Both sound like good choices. Just go the one with less doubt to it.

1) As a whole I think the industry is still interested in what you would call generic degrees. If you find that you do a games specific course at a diploma level you may not get many credit transfers where if you were to get a bachlors and then do a game course you'd find you'd get more recognition. I am not saying do one over the other, I am suggesting if you can do both. Just be careful in which order you do them in.

2) Yes there are some boring parts to Uni, however it gives you a solid grounding as a "programmer", puts you around people of similar interests, and gives you time to work on games studies in areas such as graphics later on in the degree. TAFE is good for hands on, but the downside of doing things hands-on in TAFE is you have a learn/do time where as at Uni lectures are learning and tutorials are for doing. So over all, in Uni you will get more "learning time" and this will show. You will also receive a more rounded education at Uni.

3) You will learn very quickly that there are plenty of young people out there who know just as much as you. Junior positions can be quite hard to pick-up and there is generally a rather large application base for only one job. I am not saying do not look, but do not believe that your current skills make you employable. Decide right now to study, and if you apply for jobs and pick one up, great!

All in all, if you have to travel that much just to go to TAFE you could go to uni and use the 3/4 of the time you are not traveling to learn more about games related programming. If you really are keen on a games focused degree, do that after you pick up a Bachlors. But if you use your time wisely, study hard, get good grades, I think you'll find by the time you are done with Uni you will not need a games related degree. Also, if you end up not landing a games job early after graduation you do have a degree that is more recognised in general application development. You will find, too, that a degree will more than likely see you getting paid $10,000 more a year.

For once Jacana we are in complete agreement [:)] I can't even remember the last time that happened... [;)]

Something that hasn't been pointed out is that a degree has 2 purposes.
1)To prepare you for postgraduate research if you wish to do it (and are smart enough)
2)To prepare you for a job.

Diplomas (and vocational training in general) have 1 purpose: to prepare you for a job.

Uni is about teaching you to think for yourself (imho) and coming up with new ideas and original work (I realise it may not seem like that while you're an undergrad, but it really is). Vocational training teaches you (some of) what you need to know for work in an industry.

You do have to do a lot more crap in a degree, but there are good reasons for it. A very senior staff member at La Trobe says that if students don't ask "why the hell am I learning this crap, I'll never use it" he isn't doing his job properly, and that it will be 5 or so years after they graduate that they appreciate it and say someting like "that's what the old fart was on about" [;)]

If you're that keen on AI you should be thinking about aiming to do postgrad research I think. It's a lot more study, but it doesn't have to all be done at once- I think it's smarter to work for a few years after a degree, then do postgrad.

Jacana: you went to TAFE before the AIE didn't you? I seem to remember something like that.

Jacana's comment about needing to be careful about the order you do them in is very true- I think you'll get far more from vocational training if you've covered the groundwork really well first. That's why Carnegie Melon University and others are running rather vocational coursework masters degrees in games.

Also a degree makes it much easier to work overseas.

All that said I personally would have found a normal CS degree far too boring to deal with. If you're thinking about one perhaps hunt for one where you can take games subjects as electives.

Thank you all for your replies.

Well... I did say that the 2 year Diploma leads on to a 2 year Bachelor at the University of Technology, Sydney. A Bachelor of Science (Games) no less... You two both seemed to miss that (No offence) The TAFE has especially setup this course connection with the Uni. I don't forsee any problems with getting the required grades.

I was going to say something about how you thought I wasn't employable... But then I decided it was better not to. But even so... I wonder what else I have to do to prove I can do this work, other than getting a 90+ in my HSC for both my computers subjects (IPT, SDD), getting 99% for my Year 12 major SDD project (OO, wxPython GUI, an entire game dev platform), building and working on computers since the Commodore 64, creating and working on multiple games plus numerous other awards including a 1st place (and perfect score) medal in a statewide competition. I don't consider myself the best and I really do try to avoid being arrogant, infact I'm very critical of my own work yet it frustrates me when people just dismiss what I can do.

Yes I do wonder if this whole job area is right for me - But what's the alternative? Business programming? Web design? Hardware maintenance? There's lots I suppose - problem is none of them really interest me. That flipping the coin idea sounds tempting...

Bah. I shouldn't be doing this stuff at 1am... But then again - I love my work and want to get this right so why not.

Back to coding I guess... My current AI has emotions, memory, senses and numerous other features. It 'feels'. It'll go on personal vendettas, investigate interesting sounds, follow paths while still laying down fire on opponents, fight realistically... The list is going on and on. Not to mention I'm going to scale it up to beyond RTS levels. ie. I aim for thousands of these guys on the battlefield. Impossible? I don't think so... Even if it is the AI will be quite spectacular regardless.

No, we didn't miss it, we just don't think it's a great idea (sorry if I've put words in your mouth Jacana, just that's how I read your post).

Remember game AI is supposed to be fun to play against. It's not meant to decimate human players. Have a look at Thief 1 and 2 for some very cool AI.

You basically don't have a chance getting a job as a games programmer straight out of HS. You're competing with Diploma and Degree graduates from this year and previous years, as well as the juniors Midway just fired. Sorry. But is it games or AI that really interests you? If it's AI then aim for postgrad I suggest.

Even if you can do it well enough to get a job- and no offence, I'm not saying you can't- that diploma/degree says something about your commitment. A degree in particular tells an employer "this person can do the boring stuff without quitting, as well as the cool stuff".

There haven't been many games made in Aus with heavy AI have there? Anyone?

OS is probably your best bet, that's why I'm suggesting postgrad. A few more years as a poverty stricken student for much higher pay and easier employment for the rest of your life, as well as perhaps getting to put "Dr" in front of your name. You want to really like the subject area though.

Also I'm not a (games industry) employer.

It's ok Lorien :) I do agree with it not being the best idea. I think this may well make front page headlines on Sumea! Cheryl and Lorien agree! First sign that the world is ending ;)

My two basic reasons for ignoring TAFE are as follows
1) The travel time involved
2) If you really are as advanced as you are in programming TAFE would bore you

My impression of TAFE (yes, I did do TAFE before AIE) in terms of programming is it is there to teach people who have had little to no exposure with programming or languages the basics to understand how programming works. My first two weeks were just doing Hello World type pop-up boxes in VB.

What you will not get in TAFE is learning how to better structure your code, optomizing your code, deep level debugging, in-depth understanding of things like STL.

As I see it, if you go to "games" school you loose out on some of the core fundamentals of programming. If you do university you miss out on some of the games programming. Either way you miss out on something and have to make up for it. If you can gain back 3 hours a day by traveling to Uni instead of TAFE, that's 3 hours you can put back into life to learn about games programming. However, if you spend an extra 3 hours to travel to TAFE you can not make that time back learning the fundamentals.

Along with the education benefits, CS degrees are by far more "standard" through out different universities. When hiring people know what to expect of you from the word Go seeing that degree. However, games courses are not in anyway standard and they will not have a clue what you have studied and to what depth you have studied it.

As for saying how you thought I wasn't employable - I did not state you were not. What I stated was that you need to realise you are not the only graduate out there who posseses intelligence, skills, drive, passion, dedication. Plenty of graduates do. And many of them find themselves with out jobs. What I caution is not giving up the idea of study for the change of a job. Take on study, apply for jobs, and then if you find you do get a job, drop studies if you desire. Never put your "eggs all in one basket" as the saying goes.

I should be more specific with my AI description!
Just because my AI is advanced and stuff doesn't mean it'll rape players, get impossible shots, and use a simple vector subtract to work out the target's position perfectly [:P] I've seen the results of crap AI and good AI and what it does to the fun factor of a game, it's not nice at all. I value fun-factor over general 'AI coolness' quite high - I'm adding in those features to make the AI more human, not to give it an unassailable advantage [;)] Look at HALO 2 - By adding something as simple as memory to that AI it became trickable and more realistic. My AI factors in even more aspects such as emotions and a NN/GA based FSM. Anyhow... Enough about that. I'll post a video or something up here 'when it's done'. As for Thief and Thief 2, well, I haven't played em. I don't really play stealth games. But it could be an interesting challenge to work out a 'stealthy' AI [:P]

Hmm... you two are making very good points. After all, this is the first year this TAFE course has been run, and it'll be first year the Uni side of things has been run too. AND I have read that there's a postgrad thing to do with games at UTS! (I can't remember the exact link but this I believe has something to do with it: http://research.it.uts.edu.au/creative/ccrs/) So I could get a generic Bachelor but maybe a more specialised PhD.

Thanks for your suggestions - Sorry for being rather hostile...

Now the choice is an interesting one... I can pick any UTS computers course I want - So which one? I'm after one that's more programming, less business stuff. My bro does a course there that could be cool. He said you can make it as programming orientated as you like, then again, I can pick other courses he couldn't. (UAI is 92.15... Well, for UTS only *evil grin*)

Decisions, decisions... But I'm starting to think more away from the TAFE to Uni path. It seemed so good...

Edit: Yikes! UTS is offering games orientated subject choices! Hmm... Methinks I need to investigate more.

You should get in touch with Yusuf Pisan (just google him). He's the guy to ask about games at UTS.

Don't forget you can move interstate to study. People do that a lot (and my first move to Melbourne- I grew up in hornsby and did electronics at hornsby tafe years ago- was to study). Go where the course you want is.

Yeah that's the dude [:D] Thanks for that info... I'll get in touch with him.

Interstate? Eck... I can't do that for various reasons. I highly doubt I'll be moving out of home any time soon either! I just wouldn't cope with something like that. That's why I really do want a course and job in Sydney so I don't have to move. Couldn't have picked a worse state/city I guess to want to get into the games industry [:P] Anyway... I've got a better idea now of what todo. I'll probably do this course: http://www.it.uts.edu.au/course/undergrad/local/bscitdipitpp.html and then aim for a PhD or something like that.

quote:Originally posted by Rohan
Interstate? Eck... I can't do that for various reasons. I highly doubt I'll be moving out of home any time soon either! I just wouldn't cope with something like that.

That's why unis have on campus accommodation. It makes everything so much easier for people who've just moved out of home and/or interstate. I've lived on campus twice (each at a different uni).

It would be pretty full on straight out of HS- I was 21 when I moved out of home, and it was interstate, and it was a very big step at the time.

It's a good way to make sure you're not still living with your parents at 30- which too many people are doing these days it seems [:)]

On Campus accomodation doesn't sound like my sought of thing either... I value my privacy and the space I have at home. It's not worth the hassle. If I can't find work in Sydney in the games industry the option is simple - I'll find a different career path. But that is definately the last option.

As for living with my parents... Well I don't see any problems with that. I'm more than happy to pay board. I don't go out much (Nowhere to go), have big parties (Noone to invite) nor am I involved in any relationships (I don't want to be either) [:P] Hence there's no real reason to move. I'm rather happy with my current life, I just have to get a job I'll be happy doing and then I'll be set.

I really do wonder about game development as a career path. But what else is there todo? Business programming ain't creative like games programming is and I seriously can't think of what else I'd like to do for a job.

[:)]

On campus isn't so bad actually, and you do get privacy (in Aus it's 1 per room, and big locks on doors). It certainly wasn't as debaucherous as it's made out to be. [:)]

Even if Sydney gets much bigger game dev wise it's highly unlikely you could have a career in game dev without moving state or country at some stage. If you can't do that for whatever reason you're probably best off finding another career imho. The creative programming jobs are in R&D and are next to impossible to get without a phd or research masters. The CSIRO is a pretty cool place to work (so my dad told me), and Canon have an R&D lab in Sydney called CISRA.

You need to get out more, make some friends, and maybe half a relationship or two btw or you'll go crazy! No offence.

Friends and relationships? Nah... No need. I don't require company to be happy. Going out to parties or clubs or whatever and stuff just doesn't interest me, I see no point in doing it. As for relationships, no way. I also don't see the point in having a relationship with someone. Never say never but atm I couldn't care less. As I said, other than working out what todo with this and getting a job I'm happy with my life - I don't want to mess it up.

I've thought about doing academic work, probably at UTS. I wouldn't mind a PhD in something cool like AI and I don't see what could make it different to any other games job, other than your products won't appear on shelves [:P] Considering I do lots of research projects tho currently, it could be lots of fun. Maybe I could end up with a military contractor, that could be cool too.

Anyhow... I've swapped my preferences around so now that means I am going to UTS rather than TAFE and doing a BSc InfoTech, Dip IT ProfPrac [:)]

Edit: Is UTS the only Uni in Sydney offering games related subjects? I got the impression it was

Afaik UTS is the only uni in NSW offerring games programming, but it is hard to find out for sure. The uni of Western Sydney sponsored IE2005 (which Yusuf organised), so it looks like they are interested at least. The Australian Film Television and Radio School are offerring degree and postgraduate courses for artists.

You should have a look at this too if owning your own work is important to you http://sumea.com.au/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3146

You really should work at developing relationships now. That is a very, very important part of work. When you are interviewed it is not just for your skill. They need to know that you will fit into the team, that you can work as a team, that you can work on a social level as well as professional level with the team, and that you can work with various personality types.

I did say I'm fine with business relationships. I'm also fine with social ones alot of the time too. How can I put this... School sucked for me. The effects that it had on me allowed me to apply for EAS (Which UTS thankfully accepted) I could have gone better than what I did... School has shown me that people frequently bring other people down for the sake of it and that a lot of the time they don't show remorse or mean that they're sorry even when they say it to your face. Trust me... I've had people say sorry and then do something pretty much the same a short while later (Sometimes even with teachers or other adults present) Now do you understand why I don't like relationships and why in alot of ways I consider myself unemployable, why I've already forgotten about all of my school years (thankfully), why I didn't go on schoolies, and why I hope to never see some people again?

I had a similar time at high school... Don't worry, uni rocks by comparison. You'll even find people with at least half a brain there [;)]

My only issue with UTS is they pinched La Trobe's former professor of computer science in 2003. Yusuf's a really nice guy and from what I know of him is likely a very good teacher (though of course you will have other teachers). He's an AI specialist btw, so you're likely to be a student of his [:)]

So now the thread's turned from "The Apprentice" to "Oprah".

I think a lot of people here know exactly where you're coming from with the social stuff - things do get better since at uni everybody doing the course at least has some similar interests (rather than being thrown together purely by geography). Those cuts do heal.

I also think, though, that a lot of people here know exactly where you're coming from with the career stuff too. I was a sh*t hot programmer when I left school too and had written things that I was sure were as good as what I was seeing on "Beyond 2000". I've heard may people say it and [url="http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/TestYourself.html"]the song's always the same[/url]. Would I employ my then-self now? Hell no. Uni and "generic" computing degrees or their domain specific supersets give you a bunch of suff you'll never know you need until you need it.

Perhaps an example will help. My resume says that my first ever project as tech lead was delivered on time and on budget. That's true, but mainly because I worked around 120hours a week for three weeks solid leading up to the deadline. This was the first time I had to design something for someone else to build. My design was actally solid, and the core of it was a distributed FSA using HTTP messaging between nodes.

Three months before deadline I handed my high level design to the other "programmer" I was working with, who was a business degree major with TAFE equivalent programming training. A month later, after being assured that he was on-track, he came and asked what an FSA was and what my state-transition table meant. He fundamentally did not understand what an FSA was, had never seen, built nor debugged one and could not grasp at all why you would write a loop where you couldn't tell before starting how many times the loop would execute. To add insult to injury, my design also used interpreted code which was driven from the state table itself - stored in an RDBMS, and that was just too complex to think about.

I tried to assist for the next couple of weeks, but I also had my own I/O messaging layer to write and so we decided in a pragmatic decision that the core would be a giant case: statement rather than my beautiful, maintainable, dynamic FSA. No need to guess where most of the bugs were (are - it's still in production today AFAIK). Net result - delivered on time and on budget but burnt myself to a crisp.

My rambling and slightly incoherent point is that self-taught gun programmers are fantastic until the day they're asked to do something they've never done before. Employers know this, and they also know that uni "generic" computing degrees at least give programmers exposure to a bunch of weird stuff. Net result - it makes you employable.

We're not dissing your skills, I'm sure they're fantastic (and you _do_ already know what an FSA is) but uni gives you stuff that you just coud not believe.

Im afraid i cant really contribute to the discussion of uni/tafe studies but i want to add im in the same boat as you right now (just finished final year) and mcdrewski's right, most of us here have lived similar experiences. I did wonder where the place was that the people like me came out on top and in i think about yr 10 i went to a uni open day and i remember seeing and meeting the people there... long story short, ive been painfully waiting for uni ever since :)

Better be careful what you say to these impressionable young men Jacana [;)]

Mcdrewski has a very good point- I'm a partly self taught programmer, and in late 2003 was introduced to one of my supervisor's old friends as "the department's new whizz kid" (it had been a long time since I'd thought of myself as a kid at all- I was 30). I figured out what he meant later, and it's pretty much what mcdrewski described. There was a lot of stuff I simply hadn't come across because it had little relevance to my area, and I had to sort it out very quickly after being accepted into a research masters in comp-sci.

Incidentally it takes one hell of a programming portfolio to get accepted into comp-sci research after having studied music and music technology- which is also where the "whizz kid" came from [:)]

******

Why not go then Moon? Edit: oops, I misunderstood. Your Elite rating makes people think you're older than you are.

I suppose my point about not being employable has escalated. I held a slight hope I may be employable but not a definate one. Yes it'd be great but even so... I'd like to do things properly. I believe I've made the right choice with going to UTS.

I'm not saying Uni would be a bad thing either. It would give me the oppertunity to work as a team, something which never seemed to work at school as I seemed to do all the coding when doing group projects... Nor do I really want to go straight into a job now. I can see why I wouldn't be employed now and I do understand that. But the social stuff is something that I don't really see a solution to yet.

I also get what you mean about self-taught programmers. I know I can most likely do better with my designs and ideas - I have been corrected with much simple solutions before to my code and I *want* to learn how to code properly rather than just hack stuff so it works.

a comment by lorien, Vocational training teaches you (some of) what you need to know for work in an industry

I would have to disagree with this comment, being a teaching in Vocational education myself for 5 odd years, my students learnt all the that they needed to learn. Then again I can see why lorein and I would not see eye to eye on this, he works at La Trobe's.
Just because people go to uni does not always mean that they get the best training.
(by the way I am not bagging out La Trob, just saying nothing is wrong with Vocational training

Nothing personal, but I strongly disagree, and I've been through TAFE, The Australian Institute of Music, The Canberra School of Music, La Trobe uni, and the AIE. I've been through both sorts of education is my point, and that comment is a personal opinion.

The name "vocational training" says what it's about imho: dictionary.com has the following on "vocation"
quote:
1. A regular occupation, especially one for which a person is particularly suited or qualified.
2. An inclination, as if in response to a summons, to undertake a certain kind of work, especially a religious career; a calling.

Training for a particular vocation is training for a job, and there's a lot more to the world than work (though some game developers may disagree) [;)]

From my point of view I see University and Vocational training as filling two different roles. University teaches a lot of raw theory with a bit of practicality, where Vocational training is about teaching you the basics of what you need to do for a job and the roles you will be filling, but only a bit of theory. The disparity is in that some jobs really don't have a lot of theory or technical knowledge required for them and others do.

A University games course will teach a lot of theory, but leaves out a lot of industry knowledge about the jobs and industry function meaning a University graduate should familiarise themselves with the culture and practical aspects of the industry in their spare time. On the flip side a Vocational course will tell you most of that, but is light on the theory, so a Vocational student should be broadening their technical skills and experience outside of class time.

A whole lot of the theory taught at University is not necessary for most research / jobs, but it will be relevant to some. Maybe courses targetted specifically to games narrow down and remove a lot of the useless theory? (I don't know).

In either case it is the student themselves that determines how good they end up. Neither a University course or a Vocational course is going to make a student better than their innate talent - but a disciplined student would reach their potential even if they didn't attend an educational course (but its a lot easier if they do). Both provide the student with learning resources and both leave a lot to the student to learn in their spare time.

quote:Originally posted by Dragoon

From my point of view I see University and Vocational training as filling two different roles. University teaches a lot of raw theory with a bit of practicality, where Vocational training is about teaching you the basics of what you need to do for a job and the roles you will be filling, but only a bit of theory. The disparity is in that some jobs really don't have a lot of theory or technical knowledge required for them and others do.

Fair enough, but uni has more practical stuff than you may realise I think.

quote:
A University games course will teach a lot of theory, but leaves out a lot of industry knowledge about the jobs and industry function meaning a University graduate should familiarise themselves with the culture and practical aspects of the industry in their spare time. On the flip side a Vocational course will tell you most of that, but is light on the theory, so a Vocational student should be broadening their technical skills and experience outside of class time.

No argument there at all. I'm curious about what proof there is that "replicating industry conditions in the classroom" is a good thing for students though (of course I can see why industry likes the idea).

quote:
A whole lot of the theory taught at University is not necessary for most research / jobs, but it will be relevant to some. Maybe courses targetted specifically to games narrow down and remove a lot of the useless theory? (I don't know).

Things that seem useless in the present to students have a habit of becoming relevant later on. I've experienced it myself over and over. Also people change careers. Compare La Trobe's Bachelor of Computer Science in Games Technology http://www.latrobe.edu.au/handbook/scitech/sbcsgt.htm#P1872_49680 with the normal Bachelor of Computer Science http://www.latrobe.edu.au/handbook/scitech/sbcs.htm#P1629_42703

for an idea about some differences at my uni.

quote:
In either case it is the student themselves that determines how good they end up. Neither a University course or a Vocational course is going to make a student better than their innate talent - but a disciplined student would reach their potential even if they didn't attend an educational course (but its a lot easier if they do). Both provide the student with learning resources and both leave a lot to the student to learn in their spare time.

Of course. Also uni/college is a way to fast track that innate talent. A uni degree (no idea about QANTM) with honours can open the door to postgrad research i.e. a degree is more open-ended than a diploma.

fast track the innate talent, with a postgrad reasarch, come on if you have the tallent, go get a job, u learn a lot more when you are in the industry then staying in school.
I can only talk about the art side of things mind you, but at the moment an artist in australia just neededs to have a kick-ass demoreel, to get a job.

this is not having a go at anyone, but i know some people that only stay in study, they have this so called skill, but never get a job, they say things like, the more study the better I would be for it, but for me with art, you can only get so far with study, once you get into the industry the industry will teach you what is needed.

quote:Originally posted by spudbog

fast track the innate talent, with a postgrad reasarch, come on if you have the tallent, go get a job, u learn a lot more when you are in the industry then staying in school.
I can only talk about the art side of things mind you, but at the moment an artist in australia just neededs to have a kick-ass demoreel, to get a job.

Hope that's not coming after me- I'll take it as though it isn't for now. Postgrad research is a choice, and it's one that few students are even offered. I said above that I think it's smarter to work for a few years before attempting it- it seems the older you are when you start the better the chance you have of finishing (massive generalisation which has plenty of exceptions).

This is getting to the heart of the training v/s education debate- you are talking only about getting a job now (suitable for the impatience of youth imho). I'm talking about long term personal benefits as well.
quote:
this is not having a go at anyone, but i know some people that only stay in study, they have this so called skill, but never get a job, they say things like, the more study the better I would be for it, but for me with art, you can only get so far with study, once you get into the industry the industry will teach you what is needed.

[;)] The industry will teach you what is needed for that industry. I agree with the repeated comments at freeplay about the apprenticeship model being most appropriate for that. It's tried and tested and doesn't seem to make many people angry.

I don't think it's so good for private college's income streams though...

People choose to do more study for all sorts of reasons. In my case several studios had told me "you're top of the list" and "we have tons of work for you" (and I saw my CV on the top of the pile at a surprise visit to one of them in 2003) were advertising for jobs with "contracts off in la-la land, waiting to be signed by the publisher fairy"- which was actually Kipper describing some of my games job hunting experiences (several studios apologised to me profusely long ago over it btw).

Not getting hired whilst having a really good demo reel was part of why I decided to do more study- and it took around 8 months for one of my programmer classmates with 1st class honours in software engineering and the AIE's dip comp game dev to get a games programming job.

Some companies took over 6 months just to reply to an email for jobs they'd advertised for. At least they replied, but really what's the point if you're going to take that long?

I'd been planning on doing research for years before that and I plan to do more- ideally I'd like to do a phd at the MIT Media Lab http://www.media.mit.edu/ working on Hyperinstrument systems http://www.media.mit.edu/hyperins/ some more (La Trobe's defunct music department had loads of hi-tech instrument design and construction going on). It's not going to be easy to get into MIT at all...

You do postgrad research because you love what you do, otherwise it's very hard to get finished.

Seen as this course leads onto Uni from TAFE (UTS no less, most likely being taught by Yusuf) and you come out with a Degree AND a Diploma, then surely I'd get the best of both worlds? eg. all the practical 'fun' and projects of TAFE and then the theoretical work in Uni. Not to mention it's 4 only a 4 year course and the TAFE has games industry connections.

quote:
This is getting to the heart of the training v/s education debate- you are talking only about getting a job now (suitable for the impatience of youth imho). I'm talking about long term personal benefits as well.

While I have applied for the UTS course, I'm just getting a bit confused by all these conflicting views. I'm a long term thinker so the UTS course appeals to that because it means I could for example work for the military (which would be a heck of alot of fun IMHO) either directly or through a contractor (fyi I'm kinda thinking more long term than my parents [:P] they say go to Uni or whatever then figure it out, I'd like to have a goal for motivational reasons however). The TAFE course though still holds some attractions - I've learnt alot from actually coding things and seeing what stuffs up and what works. And as for being impatient - yeah maybe but i'm getting better at not being that way [:P]

Now this decision may be made for me too, Uni results come back next week. I may not make it into the UTS course directly - which means the best alternative IMO is TAFE then Uni.

If you can, choose the learning style that appeals to you the most. If your goal is more research than to be working in the industry then Uni is a must.

In either case if you want to succeed you must put in a lot of effort outside class time. After all if you know more that your classmates, you'll get picked for a job over them ;-)

quote:Originally posted by Rohan

Seen as this course leads onto Uni from TAFE (UTS no less, most likely being taught by Yusuf) and you come out with a Degree AND a Diploma, then surely I'd get the best of both worlds? eg. all the practical 'fun' and projects of TAFE and then the theoretical work in Uni. Not to mention it's 4 only a 4 year course and the TAFE has games industry connections.

It's the first time Hornsby TAFE are running it you said. That means there are going to be plenty of unforseen issues (it's unavoidable). Here is a little info on some 'fun' uni projects my students have done over the past 3 years http://vssec.org the students have made all the simulation software for fake "missions to mars", "missions to the ISS", and this year they've made galactic mapping/super light travel simulators. That's from a normal software engineering subject (not games tech), and the systems they've made will be in use by high school kids from all over Vic for years to come after the building opens. VSSEC have provided summer scholarships to the top students who then start from scratch (because VSSEC want to own the IP they have to pay the students).
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This is getting to the heart of the training v/s education debate- you are talking only about getting a job now (suitable for the impatience of youth imho). I'm talking about long term personal benefits as well.

While I have applied for the UTS course, I'm just getting a bit confused by all these conflicting views. I'm a long term thinker so the UTS course appeals to that because it means I could for example work for the military (which would be a heck of alot of fun IMHO) either directly or through a contractor (fyi I'm kinda thinking more long term than my parents [:P] they say go to Uni or whatever then figure it out, I'd like to have a goal for motivational reasons however). The TAFE course though still holds some attractions - I've learnt alot from actually coding things and seeing what stuffs up and what works. And as for being impatient - yeah maybe but i'm getting better at not being that way [:P]

Two somewhat similar views are coming from programming graduates the AIE gave scholarships to (Jacana and myself), and neither of us are working in the games industry. I know the AIE were saying lots of nice things about Jacana, and she's presented at the AGDC. I somehow think she would have tried for games jobs.

Only one of the four classmates I'd actually call programmers (see mcdrewski's "pointers and references" thread in the programmers section) works in the games industry (Hi Paul!). We'd all been to uni first.

Times have changed though, and I hope it's for the better, but really I can only see things getting worse with next-gen (though we'll probably end up with lots more American owned companies here for a while until they set up shop somewhere cheap in Asia).

Getting a uni education (and particularly postgrad) is likely to insulate you from it somewhat I think.

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Now this decision may be made for me too, Uni results come back next week. I may not make it into the UTS course directly - which means the best alternative IMO is TAFE then Uni.

With you being a programmer who's really interested in AI I personally think you'd be wasting your time starting at TAFE.