GTA: San Andreas Re-Rated AO in USA

Or, in even more summary:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php?date=2005-07-20

This is going to get pretty ranty so bear with me.

I've been following this story and I'm pretty shocked to see that it's been re-rated. Okay, R* was irresponsible for leaving the content on the disc, but really, its sexual content thats been left on the disc of a game thats rated M (that's 17+ in USA) bearing the descriptor, among others, "Strong Sexual Content". Interestingly enough, Leisure Suit Larry: Magna cum Laude is also rated M (in USA) for "Strong Sexual Content". To say that the Hot Coffee material is hugely more explicit than what's acceptable for an M rating is crazy; Remember, M in USA is roughly the equivalent of an R rated movie in Australia. Seriously, some of the shit I've seen in an R rated movie makes this whole debate seem like a total non-issue.

The basic argument is that the Hot Coffee material is pornography. Ergo, it must be placed in the AO category for sexual content (The USA film equivalent to this is the X rating, exclusively used by porn films). Sexually explicit? Sure. Pornography? No way.

quote: Dictionary.com says:
por?nog?ra?phy
n.
1. Sexually explicit pictures, writing, or other material whose primary purpose is to cause sexual arousal.

Don't know about you, but I can't believe that [url="http://elliottback.com/wp/wp-content/gta-san-andreas-sex-04.jpg"]this[/url] (Not Safe For Work) was ever intented primarily to arouse anyone who has the internet connection required to download the mod. Its a cartoonish parody and a joke made for a mature audience. It is not pornography.

It seems pretty likely that the OFLC will now ban, or "refuse classification" of GTA:SA.

Has anyone seen Sin City? Goddamnit, that film was given an MA15+ rating by the OFLC. Strong sexually-based violence including torture, sexual mutilation and dismemberment. What the fuck? A 15-year old can see that but can't play a game with some cartoony sex-scenes? Sure, right. We're being screwed.

Edit: Just for the record, I loved Sin City.

http://pc.ign.com/articles/635/635277p1.html

Great interview on IGN with Rockstar (doesn't say who from Rockstar, but the interviewee is just labelled as Rockstar [;)]). All the important questions asked like why the content was there, why wasn't it taken out, the official statement about hackers vs now admitting what they've done etc. Personally, I think Rockstar should be given a handslap over that last point. Definately a PR screwup.

Also an interesting read at gamecloud.com on some developer responses over the whole situation.. http://www.gamecloud.com/article.php?article_id=771

The aftermath of the whole situation:

quote:The AEMI group, which represents retail outlets including Blockbuster, Circuit City, CompUSA, Kmart, Toys R Us and Wal-Mart, amongst over 130 other retail outlets, comes on top of Best Buy announcing that it won't carry the title, in line with its policy not to carry Adult Only (AO) titles. Best Buy's move will see the game not sold in its stores or on its websites (bestbuy.com, bestbuy.ca, futureshop.ca).

Ouch. I would love to hear what's happening behind at Rockstar management. Someone's definately in a heap of trouble over all this. Unless they really expected no one from the modding community to tinker with their game. [:p] They're estimating this whole incident to cost them at least $45 million.:

The Company now expects $205 to $215 million in net sales and a net loss per share of $(0.05) to $(0.10) for the third quarter ending July 31, 2005.

As a result of the re-rating of the game, Take-Two is lowering guidance for the third fiscal quarter ending July 31, 2005 to $160 to $170 million in net sales

I wonder if the game have been rated AO (USA) if the content had been in there in the first place and not 'hidden'?

In Australia, though -

quote:OFLC

When a distributor applies for classification of a computer game in Australia, they are required by law to provide the Classification Board with access to all content within the game as well as particulars of contentious material and the means to gain access to such material.

Under Commonwealth Classification legislation the Classification Board is compelled to revoke a game?s classification if it is found to contain undisclosed contentious material, whether activated through use of a code or otherwise.

So don't be surprised - based on this - if the game's classification is revoked and new versions required. I guess ebay will be rife with 'old' versions soon enough though.

Interestingly, I'm not sure that (based on the screenshots and complete lack of knowledge I have) that the game would meet the test of "realistically simulated" sex which is the description for R18+. However I'm also not sure that it passes "sexual activity may be implied" (the test for MA15+).

Tough call. Something that will make the industry in general think carefully before just 'disabling' content...

Oh dear god. This whole GTA: San Andreas mod fiasco has opened up the floodgates for the "think of the children" people.

"Miami attorney Jack Thompson claims cheat codes make EA's life sim a pedophile's paradise by showing genitalia; calls for ban on T-rated game."

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/22/news_6129609.html

Rediculous. [:(] It wont be long before all these old cronies are out of office and the gamer generation start to invade office. Until that point, we will just have to put up with the odd outburst every so often.

Next we will have an outburst regarding sharp objects, I can see it now....

" To arms men !.... To Arms!!! The orcs are invading! [:O]"

*Spearmen equip themselves and charge into battle... with marshmellows covering the pointy ends of their spears*

/sigh.

well yes. It's obvious really... in a game, or in movies, it's ok to commit any number of crime, be it homicide, arson, theft, etc. And of course to dismantle people limb from limb, with gouts of blood and gore inhumanly possible (unless say, people where pumped up with an extra gallon to maximum balloon-bursting pressure). But sex. Oh no... can't show the kids that. Just think! Their fragile impressionable minds may start to think people have sex for recreational pleasure, not just on their wedding night to have a child. Sacrilege.

This article is worth a mention. Consider this a must read! [:D] http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=ticket_to_hell

Great marketing, man they are smart..

pop

i dont know about great marketing. the game has shot back to the number 1 slot in the US becuase of this (with people buying them before they are pulled of the shelves or from retailers not taking them off), but rockstar still stands to lose a lot of money over this, well, not lose money but make less than they would have if this had not happened die to the cost of recalling the games then re-releasing a fixed version. it certainly created publicity though.

Well I myself went and bought it yesterday just in case it got pulled off the shelves. It was discounted to $60 at gamerush as well, maybe they are trying to get rid of as many as possible in case they do have to pull them off the shelves. I guess the clever marketing got to me lol.

Today, whilst on a game hunt looking for a new rpg for my partner to lose herself in, I noticed a price difference from $54 to $99 on GTA:SA. The $99 going up from the previous $89 charged earlier on in the week.

Jack Thompson just so happens to be the man who compared Douglas Lowenstein (ESA president) to Adolf Hitler:

"When Hitler invaded Russia, opening up an Eastern offensive on the eve of winter, Britain's Prime Minister Winston Churchill noted that "Hitler must have been rather loosely educated, not having learned the lesson of Napoleon's autumn advance on Moscow ."

Your Doug Lowenstein is similarly "loosely educated" about the United States Constitution. I have never, in my eighteen years of public interest law practice against the excesses of the entertainment industry, run into an individual more devoid of even an elementary understanding of the meaning and scope of the First Amendment."

Thats from a open letter to the ESA (availible here: http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/633/633763p1.html ) where he also makes other stupid remarks like how video games are designed to train children to kill (you might think americas army (the game) would be a prime example for that argument, he chose to go with DOOM) and personal remarks aimed at Douglas Lowenstein. I personally don't give a damn about anything he has to say.

85 year old Grandmother is [url="http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/050727/video_game_lawsuit.html?.v=2"]sueing Rockstar over GTA: San Andreas[/url] because the copy she bought for her 14 year old grandson contains a sex mini game. Said Grandmonther needs to realise what the "M" rating means. [:(!]

"She sought unspecified damages on behalf of herself and all consumers nationwide, saying the company should give up its profits from the game for what amounted to false advertising, consumer deception and unfair business practices."

hmm, asking a lot isn't she?

let's see:
> she bought the Mature rated game for her 14 year old grandson
> though the game contains the content, the child has no way to access it in normal circumstances, meaning there is no real 'deception' involved because when purchasing the game.
> where "unfair business practices" comes from i don't know.
> reading into the article it seems that the child has not seen or played the hidden material, and the grandmother has simply heard about it and is not happy it's in there, dispte what i've stated above
> and then we can go into parenting and watching what the child plays and downloads (since he would have had to download the mod to play it in the end, or search the web for the action replay codes to unlock it), but that's a whole nother area.

surly "giving up their profits" is a lot to ask for this. sounds like a money grab to me, dispite her annoyance at rockstar.

In other news - expect Rockstar to counter-sue the grandson for violating the EULA and modifying the game.

-d

Does anyone know of a case where mod makers were sued by the games creators? it seems to ring a bell but i cant think of anything specific.

[url]http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=4939[/url]

ooooh yeah, the nude mod. The big difference here is ofcourse that that was a Xbox game and this incident started with a PC mod. Then there's the action replay thing... which has been considered entirely legal untill now atleast.

i can see the whole mod comunity or games in general to come itno question here - i'm sure an overwhelming majority would be pro-modding, but no doubt there will be a few though, ol' Jack Thompson for one, that will want all modding to be made illegal and there to be laws expressily prohibitng devs to supply tools and resources with their games for modding purposes. i would hate to see that happen, and likewise i would hate to see devs do it themselves for fear of retibution brought about by explicid 3rd party mods. though i would consider such an occurance to be very unlikly.

GTA4 been pulled from sale in Australia:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/breaking/game-off-shelves/2005/07/29/1122…

If modding becomes taboo it could just swipe a whole chunk of the game industry out of existance, a modder myself i would hate to see that happen. Someone whom id actually like to hear their opinions on this (bad english, you get me) is cliffyb, being the huge supporter of mods that he is and being one of the few to actually release the tools that his company used to create the game with it (ofcourse this is not just his iniciative but rather that of the entire company, but cliffyb seems to be the vocal one at epic).

I can't see modding dying - after all, if no new moddable games were released ever again we'd still have a lot to mod with.

The issue has to be R* making the purely expedient business decision to 'disable' the content while still shipping it and not to notify rating organisations. That was greedy (meet their shipping date without rework or extra QA), and now they are paying the price.

I just wonder if [url="http://gtadomain.gtagaming.com/images/sa/secrets/wanker.jpg"]any[/url] of [url="http://gtadomain.gtagaming.com/images/sa/secrets/cokopops.jpg"]the other[/url] [url="http://gtadomain.gtagaming.com/images/sa/secrets/wanking.jpg"]easter eggs[/url] were mentioned...

an open letter to Senator Clinton from Steven Johnson is author of "Everything Bad Is Good for You: How Today's Popular Culture Is Actually Making Us Smarter"

well worth you time to read it:

[url]http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/…]

Aside from the question of what might come from this event, something here confuses me a little.
GTA is a game where players are somewhat encouraged to steal cars, beat up padestrians and kill prostitutes with rocket propelled grenades (before gleefully dancing over to their corpse and looting them). I find it a little odd that the rating system considers that this is all ok for "M17+", but heaven forbid that the game contains a sexual scene.

Secondly, the thing I don't like that is all this game bashing stuff is flavor of the month again without a better argument than "it influences children". I'm dissapointed that despite using (nearly) the same rating system as for films, games made for adults and only sold to adults are being critisized for being "harmful to children".

quote:
I'm dissapointed that despite using (nearly) the same rating system as for films, games made for adults and only sold to adults are being critisized for being "harmful to children".

The game bashing crowd are of course not game players themselves and do not understand that games are to a large extent for adults. They associate computer games as entertainment for young children, so when they see a violent computer game they just think of children being exposed to the violence.

I think it?s a similar situation to when rock and roll came out and the parents didn?t understand it and so tried to ban it. The hypocritical thing is that those children that fought for their right to listen to rock and roll are the same people today fighting to ban violent computer games.

And I think the sexually explicit nature of the hot coffee mod is just an excuse to attack what some consider amoral. They aren?t really trying to stop the sexual content; they are just using it as an excuse to attack violent and immoral games.

Here?s an idea for the Americans leading this game bashing: if you want to stop violence, don?t worry about banning computer games, worry about banning firearms.

its been happening since the dawn of time or atleast since the dawn of civilization, the older generation dosent understand the younger. an article which tells you essentially what most of you would allready know but also spends a bit of time on that problem (has this been linked here allready?): http://economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=4246109

btw has anyone tried contacting jack thompson? because ive seen one or few make the attempt and well... its like IRC banter. He comes back with much of the same talk id expect from some public chatroom. Cartoonist Scott Ramsoomair of VG cats is talking rather infomally himself but ive seen other examples of Thompson acting the way he is here in response to other more formal emails if they come from essentially any member of the public talking against his views. linky: http://www.vgcats.com/jack.php

some examples of things thompson has said from that link:
"Get a name and a life"
" uh,no. i don't have time for twits"
"HOnestly, are all of you gamers on drugs, or what?"
"dear idiot:"

as i said i beleive this because ive seen multiple examples of him behaving much the same to other completely unrelated people. There was on example where he accidently emailed a letter for someone else to someone who was having a similar debate with him, anyone got the link for that?