I'd just like to hear peoples views on the whole issue of gamers and game developers being classed as the geeks of the entertainment industry.
I do realise that there is a kind of sarcastic respect underneath the use of the term but is it time we stood up as an industry and gained the kind of respect we really deserve?
We are a proven force in the entertainment industry, consistantly grossing high sales, we take more money than most industries (except the adult insustry if I'm correct), why do we seem to be the laughing stock?
Is this the fault of the media or are the developers themselves perpetrating it?
And as devils advocate, does this 'Geek tag' help us, making people tend to underestimate what we can do?
This is an open discussion so all points of view are welcome, oh and lets try and be civil. [:)]
Malus, just read your few posts about the topic as the way the industry is seen. Just like to know first off, where did you get the idea about the topic? News or something because it sounds like it hit a saw spot or something because you are talking rather passionatly about it [^]
No one where I work is chubby (Some of the guys I know in the industry are better build then alot of people who arn't), pimple faced, and I think there are only 2 21 years olds (me being one of them). Plus we are all pretty social, going out to clubs and pubs etc. Not sure about others but me and the other 21 year old are open about working in the games industry and haven't been rejected because of it.
If your honest and people see your as normal as everyone else then this "social myth" will go away and we can all live happily ever after... [:D]
I don't think it's limited to the entertainment industry, Malus. I'm sure that everyone's heard people who are "amazed at what computers can do these days" as if the computer itself does the work. Without changing that attitude, anyone who knows how to get a computer to 'do the work' will have a kind of merlin-esque mystique for other people.
The following is one of my favourite stories/analogies, especially since it's about 'Java Monkeys' :)
quote:
Stammbach, Eduard. (1988). "Group responses to specially skilled individuals in a Macaca fascicularis." Behaviour, 107 (December 1988), 241-266
Stammbach worked with a colony of longtailed macaques (Java Monkeys). In the paper cited above, Stammbach took the lowest-ranking macaque out of the society and taught him to operate a complex machine to obtain food. When the 'nerd' monkey was reintroduced to the society, the higher ranking macaques stopped kicking him out of the way long enough for him to complete operation of the machine and obtain food for the community. i.e., society cooperated to create the conditions under which the 'nerd' could toil for them. However, the monkey who acquired these special skills and provided for the society did not achieve any rise in his dominance status.
Though there's something to be said about being considered some sort of magician :-) Although it is usually frustrating when people say "you're good at computers, why don't you do this job or other", when they are referring to a graphical website design job for a programmer. Argh...
I guess if we could better compare ourselved (programmers) to something akin to a carpenter/woodworker. They use basic tools and raw materials to construct all sorts of useful things. We do the same, though more often than not our products are made for outselves rather than the general public.
Yeah, I hate when someone asks me to fix their computer because they think that a programming qualification means that I know everything there is to know about computers [:P]. Of course I don?t mind helping people, it?s just annoying that most people assume that there is only one area of computing: computers.
As far as the geek tag holding us back as a profession, I completely agree that it is. I think the big problem with the general non-game playing public is that most people do not understand games and often perceive games as childish and a waste of time. Many times I?ve had conversations where after telling someone that I?m into developing computer games, they ask questions about games indicating that they think games are only for children.
I?ve also heard many non-gamer people talk about how much a waste of time they think playing games is. This in particular really annoys me, as their attitude is illogical and hypocritical. They may comment on how stupid their son is for example, sitting in front of the Xbox for a few hours each day when he could be doing something outside? Yet they don?t think twice to vegeing in front of some crappy American sitcom rerun all night every night. The other example often used is along the lines of ?people shouldn?t play games so much ? go read a book?. Being addicted to a novel and reading that for hours on end is no better or worse then being addicted to a game! Argh, people are hypocrites?
Sorry, had to get that off my chest; it?s been annoying me for years! [:P]
One things for sure, gamers and game developers fall into the geek category, and in many cases geeks are not accepted overly well in social situations. For example, if I was talking to a lady I wanted to impress, I?d sooner mention that I play guitar then mention I make games! Game development just ain?t that cool to anyone not into games.
Anyway, I think the current attitude about geekdom is slowly changing. Possibly due to the fact that most children of the 80?s are still playing games, and as the gamer demographic ages, the attitude towards game developers improves. There are less and less people who do not understand games, and it?s only a matter of time until interactive games is generally considered as professional an industry as any other entertainment industry. But unfortunately we are not there yet, and I think the geek tag is indeed holding the industry back.
(Would this thread better belong in the Industry and Education forum?)
quote:Game development just ain?t that cool to anyone not into games.
Sorry to completely disagree here, but compare "Yeah, I write computer games" with my job, which is "I write the software which does your phone bill" and see how cool you guys are. (Woohoo! Ask me about the privacy requirements of Mobile Number Portability in Australia and watch the time just fly by, or for a riveting three or four hours, just let me explain North American taxation rules to you!)
As you might guess - I don't talk about my job at parties. :)
Hey everyone, well that got a quicker response than I thought lol.
To put my angle on it, I can handle the tag (and quite often use it to describe myself) when its applied to me personaly as a games industry employee.
What I was more interested in learning is what people thought about its use in a more general sense, how does it impact on our industry as a whole, will it have negative impact for the future of our industry or will the informal nature of taking the piss out of ourselves and what we do bode well for keeping us a little less insular and self-righteous?
Big J: I'd actually point the finger more at developers than the media, I think we propergate the whole geek thing more than anyones else, its like we revel in it. [:)]
USF: God knows what got me onto it, just reading Palantirs post on age and it got me thinking about how we think about our industry, was curious what others thought, I'm also passionate about what I do and I want my field to be as respected and challenging as possible. [:P]
As for the chubby part, that wasn't my take on my fellow game developers, we're all gods! lol
I just noticed that when I tell alot of the people I meet for the first time what I do I get the whole "Wow, you don't look like you are a geek, wheres all the zits and pizza stains"? lol
MCDrewski: Oh I believe its a common problem in alot of industries but I work in this one so that why I was curious. lol.
Palantir: "One things for sure, gamers and game developers fall into the geek category."
This is the sort of thing I wonder about, do we really fall into the geek catagory?
This is probably a bad description of a geek but all I could find:
1. A person regarded as foolish, inept, or clumsy.
2. A person who is single-minded or accomplished in scientific or technical pursuits but is felt to be socially inept.
3. A carnival performer whose show consists of bizarre acts, such as biting the head off a live chicken.
I for one don't see this industry as any of those, maybe number 2 if by single minded you mean committed and passionate [:P].
Thanks for the replies guys. [:)]
Maybe most people consider geeks to be intelligent but socially inept people who are into ?geeky? things, like games, animation, D&D, Lord of the Rings, that kind of thing? At least that?s the feeling I get of what people generally consider to be a geek.
I think the public image of game developers is definitely that of geeks, but in reality, I think most of us are generally pretty cool. [8D]
After all, if we were all true geeks, wouldn?t Sumea be full of ?L337? speak? [:D]
I?m not sure if it?s our own fault though. We do tend to perpetuate it, but possibly the geek image comes from the origin of computer games, in the 80?s, and the image has just stuck with people? Or maybe it just comes from the comic book store guy from the Simpsons.[:P]
I think that the ways the game industry is hurt when it's viewed as a geek playground (or especially as a 'boys club') is when it's trying to attract professional talent. It doesn't make it a very desirable place to work in for female talent when it is viewed as primarily a boys club, and I'm sure the industry could do with much more of a female percentage. One can only imagine the difference if females had taken on the game industry as enthusiastically as other professions like graphic design (where their contributions as creative and talented individuals is unquestioned).
Perhaps, on why computer games development as a profession isn't as elevated as film making etc, is probably because, comparitively, production costs and art quality aren't as high and thus as polished, stories are an afterthought (they're simple, uninspired, or simply not there), and the target is catering to a smaller niche of people (predominantley young males)... And I dunno, to me it just feels like computer game development has always been the little brother to movie production in all aspects.
quote:Originally posted by palantir
For example, if I was talking to a lady I wanted to impress, I?d sooner mention that I play guitar then mention I make games! Game development just ain?t that cool to anyone not into games.
Funny, I haven't met anyone who doesn't think I'm "heaps smart" and cool when I say I make games for a living. I'd sooner say that I program Playstation and Xbox games than that I play guitar (I don't play) because for every game developer out there, there's at least 100 people who play guitar.
quote:Anyway, I think the current attitude about geekdom is slowly changing. Possibly due to the fact that most children of the 80?s are still playing games, and as the gamer demographic ages, the attitude towards game developers improves. There are less and less people who do not understand games, and it?s only a matter of time until interactive games is generally considered as professional an industry as any other entertainment industry. But unfortunately we are not there yet, and I think the geek tag is indeed holding the industry back.
Of course it's changing. The vast majority of kids now have consoles and use the Internet like it's nothing... just watch how your average 16yo conducts a lot of their communication via IM. When I was 16 it was geeky and nerdish to chat on the net, now it's normal. Gaming went mainstream with the PSX.
Frankly, who cares if people think we're geeks? That's their problem.
entering the late years of my schooling theres been a lot of the "what do you want to do when you leave school" and i must admit ive been hesitant to give a full response. Its actually suprised me though how my friends (who have as much to do with gaming as they probably own 4 between them) have actually been really interested. And since everyones talking about it, a girl i met at a party recently was really fascinated by it all (and i later discovered she was also an x-men fan!).
anyone watch the 60 minutes story on the games industry recently? besides the none-too-subtle marketing of the guy from Bugie:("it's the greatest and most anticipated game ever and everyone will be taking a sick day when it comes out, i know i will"), there was one part where they walked into a room of testers. first shot we see normal looking people, including girls, and the repoter goes on about how all sorts of people are in the industry, not just the stero types of 20 years ago. But who do they chose to interview? none other than the biggest, geekiest, gaming nerd sterotype they can find (and ironicly the only one in the room). thanks channel 9.
Moonunit: Score!
quote:Originally posted by Shplorb:
Funny, I haven't met anyone who doesn't think I'm "heaps smart" and cool when I say I make games for a living
Hehe ? cool [8D] I?m not a professional game developer yet, so I?m coming from a different perspective. I?m sure it would seem cool to people I meet if I was a professional, but as a hobbyist, game development isn?t something generally considered to be very cool (IMHO). Most people tend to categorise people into stereotypes, and the game dev enthusiast falls into the geek category a lot of the time. I think the attitude would be different if I had a job to back my claims of game developer! As it is, I personally don?t advertise that I?m a geek. [:P]
quote:Originally posted by Shplorb:
Of course it's changing. The vast majority of kids now have consoles and use the Internet like it's nothing... just watch how your average 16yo conducts a lot of their communication via IM. When I was 16 it was geeky and nerdish to chat on the net, now it's normal. Gaming went mainstream with the PSX.
Yeah, gaming is certainly mainstream but I was specifically talking about the general public opinion and perception of game developers. A career in games is still far from mainstream and I think that possibly the stereotypical image of a game developer that people imagine (geeks) is an image that is slowly changing ? and changing not so much because gaming is becoming mainstream (as we all know it?s been mainstream for many years), but changing because more people are taking the industry itself (as in the people not the products) as a serious industry.
LiveWire ? I saw that story (made me want to buy an Xbox [;)]). It was good to see that the public is starting to see game development as a serious industry and not just the domain of stereotypical geeks, but channel 9 did their best to keep the stereotype alive! [:P]
speaking about media coverage, remember a while back that someone from current afair dropped by to ask for our opinions and everyone said take a hike cause they were just gonna plaster it with "video games are evil and make kids violent", i saw the add for that report a while back ago and yeah that was the angle of their report. Didnt bother to watch it.
quote:Originally posted by palantir
A career in games is still far from mainstream...
Interesting. What do you consider a mainstream career then? If you simply said that you were a programmer, or an artist, or an animator, would that be mainstream?
Does a simple adjective in front of those titles change their connotation so much?
quote:remember a while back that someone from current afair dropped by to ask for our opinions and everyone said take a hike cause they were just gonna plaster it with "video games are evil and make kids violent", i saw the add for that report a while back ago and yeah that was the angle of their report. Didnt bother to watch it.Guess she (I think it was a she) didn't take the advice about compiling a well researched objective report...
As for this whole geeks debate, talk about bringing one out of left field! I don't know what to say about it really, I mean it's not up to us to change how we are perceived, it's up to others to change their perceptions. I can't say that we are really doing much to help it though, with the way games are! Things are changing so fast at the moment that one minute we could be kings and the next we could be jesters, what matter is what we do and that we don't reciprocate the judgement by labelling everyone else as 'normal' and labelling ourselves as 'geeks'. It's just not healthy to look at it in the wrong way.
To quickly clarify, when I say 'with the way games are' I'm referring to the fact that alot of the big name developers behind blockbuster games, are pretty much focussing solely on various forms of violence-based aggressive, objective gaming.
Maitrek: Yeah it was kinda left field to me too when I started writing it. lol. [:P]
quote: I mean it's not up to us to change how we are perceived, it's up to others to change their perceptions.
Except that the games industry itself actually purpertrates it alot on its own, even without the media involvement and pidgeon holing.
For example look at the way we market our games and ourselves to the world, young red blooded male alert! booohaw!! Lock up your daughters if they look like Lara Croft. lol
Now I'm not saying any of what we do as developers is necessarily good or bad, I for one wouldn't want to wear a suit to work or anything, but I truly do think we have a large role in how others percieve us and that perception has real concequences on how we are going to be treated by the likes of publishers, other professionals, parents, the media etc etc. [:)]
Meh I just say be comfortable with who you are. Unless you are some kind of uber-rad cyber dude who feels that being associated with 'geeks' is dragging you down :)
Plus it's just marketing, I mean the assumed audience for games is pretty much young red blooded males and we make games for them so what else do we expect...for every Myst (for a broad audience) there are 20 Doom 3s (for the young dudes). We could call for revolution, but the games industry - although rapidly changing - is only slowly evolving it's market and audience.
I don't feel that the geek tag is holding back the games profession, or the people associated with it. If anything it's become a term of endearment.
I strongly believe that you are who you are, not what you do. Perhaps one mistake "geeks" make is their perceived zealousness for their profession. In the past I've found people lose interest when I start babbling about games, though I don't think thats due to the geek stigma, rather the fact that I assault them with irrelevancies. Nobody really cares how an accountant balances his books, or how a Sanity employee arranges cds.
Also, I don't fully agree that game marketing is overtly aimed at the "counterstrike generation" of red blooded young males anymore. Flicking through my PC Powerplay I see ads for games such as Sims 2, Myst IV, Final Fantasy XI, Roller Coaster Tycoon 3. In my experience, these games are enjoyed in equal shares by both sexes, and all forms of gamers. There may be more Doom 3's around, but the variety exists. Now more than ever there's something for everyone.
Look at what we're making. Ty 2 for example wouldn't tilt the kilt of many young red blooded gamers. [:P]
To sum up, the people I know in the games industry are pretty switched on, well balanced people. If you want to see the real geeks, look to the uninspired world of corporate IT; that's where our bad name comes from!
Scott.
I think its a bit of a misconception that the majority of sales are to red blooded males.
Maybe the majority of Mod chips for the XBox yeah, [:P] but not of all sales.
Maybe the hardened uber-gamer would fit that mould more but most sales fall into a wider category.
Blitz: you basically said what I have noticed myself, I wouldn't definately call the people I work with or game with geeks.
I think eventually it will be strange for someone not to play games. As games get better game developers will get more respect. The way things are now with gamers and game developers being classed as geeks is not doing any good for the industry. I dont let this get to me though, I have pride in my work and tell anyone who is interested about what I do for a living. They can think what they want I know what I am.
Good question. I think that most people don't even know how big gaming really is. For example, that thing on 60 minutes the other night about how big the gaming industry really etc.. I had some visitors over and they didn't have a clue it was that big, quite a shock to me. Anyways about the "geek" tag yeh ummmmm I think people think geeks are the same as computer nerds or something :P. lol.
Be proud of being a geek, nearly every person has a geek within them. Hell, even when somebody calls me a nerd they often say stuff like 'Go and play some Battle.net' to which i reply 'You call me a geek yet you obviously know what Battle.net is?' and they also go on about games etc... yet i guarantee you go to anyones house and i bet there will be either a console or a PC with games on it, these days people cant really say shit and as for a profession, they cant say much either [:p]. Everybody geek now!
Pointless fact: Actually i dont really need to worry about being called a geek because a lot of people are scared of my height (Getting close to 6.5ft), im the tallest kid at my school and if someone bags me out i can generally scare them off easily [:)].
I think maybe the fact that most people's perents right now were born and raised in a world where games was a minority or games didn't exist. So the majority of society is ignorant partly becase of this fact. They just dont know any better!
Wait till the gaming generation start to have kids and I think gaming will be HEAPS more mainstream.
Also you have to hand it to the developers. They are a really secretive bunch, especially in Australia. It's hard to find out anything about them save the games they made.
I came out of school 2 years ago and I was an avid gamer, but I didn't even know that you could get a job making games. I don't remember what I thought back then but it was definately something totally out of the question as a career for me and the closest career I could get, that the teachers told me was graphic design!
Gaming as a profession just isn't well known enough, especially in out of the city schools like where I came from.
Anyway I think geekyness is holding the industry back, especially with funding and government support. Everyone just thinks we play games and thus making games is all fun and silliness when it is really hard core work! They think that because games aren't serious, then the gaming industry is far from serious.
Its like how most Americans used to think back in the day, that just because we live in Australia we all speak like Steve Erwin and there are kangaroos living in everyones backyards! (I don't know how many times I have been asked that!)
Its just ignorance on there part and the same goes to society in respect to the games industry.
I thought of this when reading the ?EA creates disgruntled spouse? thread; could the geek tag be partly responsible for the quality of life in the games industry? Could the perceived image of developers being geeks passionate about games directly relate to the often poor treatment of game developers? Maybe if game developers were perceived as being more professional the treatment might improve?
"Computer Science is as much about computers as astronomy is about telescopes." - Edsger Dykstra
Its a part of human nature to generalise other people into groups or categories. How a person understands another or their profession affects the group or type in which that person will be cast.
I think there are lots of reasons for it. Firstly, there are a lot of people out there who have little or no knowledge of computers and related technology. These people stuggle with the most basic computing tasks while we are able to create fully interactive virtual worlds using our computers. To these people this process would seem unfathomable, and they would most easily cast us as "computer" people because of it. 3D Artists/Animators in film and multimedia suffer from this problem also: Because you've created something complicated with your computer, you must be a computer genius. While this may be true in some cases, the computer is not the focus, its the tool. Dykstra said it best.
Secondly, I think the general public doesn't see enough of us and what we do and how we do it. This is a perfect opportunity to lay a finger of blame on the media. The limited publicity the industry gets in the general media usually focuses on meaningless topics like violence in games. Few people question the artistic or creative ability of a film director or screenwriter because of the amount of behind-the-scenes footage we have seen in our lives. Some people even study film in high school or university without having any real aspirations in the field, simply because of its obvious creative nature. I do think this will change though; TV producers will begin to recognise the untapped TV watching gamer market and run prime-time videogame shows with developer interviews and behind-the-scenes footage.
I think another area of blame lies in education. Considering the fact that the game industry is larger than hollywood, and is growing faster than any other entertainment industry, schools and universities should do more to incorporate game studies into film/writing/media courses. I think this is also simply a matter of time.
I wouldn't say the geek tag holds us back as a profession, although I think for some of us it does hold us back in our social life. I'm completely comfortable and happy being a game developer but I feel that because of the reasons above, you just can't discuss games with non-developers the way filmmakers can discuss and analyse films with non-filmmakers. This also will probably change over time.