Mentioned in the discussion here (http://www.sumea.com.au/svotes.asp?id=47) that quote:Perception are heading south, and starting to hemorrhage staff I knew a couple of people left but didn't know there were any real problems. A little birdy also told me that Torus was experiencing difficulties. Any truth to these rumours?
quote:Originally posted by mcdrewski
I'd love to think that some high-up industry people here would do a [url="http://crystaltips.typepad.com/wonderland/2005/03/burn_the_house_.html"]burn the house down[/url] style session at AGDC or whatever GDAA conference we end up with next year. Don't think it's in their studio's interests to do so though, more's the pity.
Had a "Burning down the shed" at freeplay. One speaker started with
quote:
Over the years I've said a lot of different things under a lot of different names. Now I'm using my own name. Fire me if you want"
and that's all I'm going to say about it on sumea.
Its no secret that Perception had a falling out with their publisher and that lots of staff left. Its been talked about extensively on the forums here.
The nature of the business is such that most studios work on one major project for one publisher at a time. Its easy to have a "near death experience" between projects or when things aren't working out with the one single project supporting the entire studio. Numerous studios have been very close to the brink only to eventually recover. But its a risky business because you have to put all your eggs in one basket.
pb
quote:Originally posted by lorien
Had a "Burning down the shed" at freeplay.
Does anyone have a transcript of [url="http://www.nextwave.org.au/freeplay/05program.htm"]that session[/url]?
"Over the years I've said a lot of different things under a lot of different names. Now I'm using my own name. Fire me if you want" - quote
Question: How mature are we?
This man has all the right to speak up about anything that he thinks is troubling the industry. I think we all get the right wether inside it or not because its our matter of opinion.... Improving is only done by seeking out and exposing our own flaws and if we put these exposes into the category of 'Hated and not gonna hire" then were just really afraid of constructive criticism..
Put this into example... Ty the Tasmanian tiger. great game. lots and lots of hard work put into it BUT it..has...flaws!
Now. If i say such a thing. Will Krome Studios bar me form ever being employed? Hopefully not. Hopefully them seeing the fact that im not so up myself to believe my work is Jesus gives me a more user-friendly and modest aspect. As said in one of the game art books I have. "You are never better then your next finished product." [Apoliges to krome for using them as the example XD]
There is whinging and extreme pessimism..Granted on that is more harm then good.. But most of the things these guys have to say are far above totally negative comments.
So use your real name. Say what you like and how you feel, and if someone is so immature to fire or not hire you on that basis... then maybe that studio is below your maturity standards XD.
Great Topic ! My name is plain as day for people to see, and I'll start the burn down the house session right now.
I can tell you apart from Perception and 1 or 2 other studios in AU, nobody local wants to know us or anything about what we want to do. 90% of our clients, current work and work backed up for next year is offshore - yet we are critisised ( some are the very same people that dont want anything to do with us ) for taking our work offshore.
After working on Stargate SG1 I wrote some 30 odd personal emails to a majority of the studios based in AU and let them know who we were, as I thought that might be nicer than a cut and paste job and simply changing the title between studios. Only 3 replied at all, not even a 'thanks but no thanks' from 90%. Some are yet to reply after 2 - 3 emails. Maybe my email adresses are marked as spam.... hmmmm [:)]
As a fellow developer - I would love to think there would be more comraderie between each other in making AU stronger as a force to be reckoned with - but it seems a mere pipedream.
Honestly, I have yet to take things to the point where im in AU studios organising meetings, showing up with a studio showreel an giving presentations on why its cost effective to outsource instead of the age old " throw more people at the problem and it will eventually go away " So thats my next step with AU - to start doing this.
Whether or not it will effect / change the nature of our client base only time will tell.
Finally I'm curious - whats your goal in knowing any of this info sleepyhead [:)] ?
My experience is similar to HazarD's. With two exceptions, I have had no response from any local developers to my business enquiries since leaving MF and going freelance in February. I have worked ONE local contract since then.
Admittedly, I have probably severely limited my prospects by focussing on concept art and 2D stuff and not providing modelling and texturing services, but I figured Kalescent had more than adequately filled that domestic market need.
One the positive effects I have noted when doing contract work is that managers get a hell of a lot more specific about their needs when you are charging them by the hour[:)].
quote:" throw more people at the problem and it will eventually go away "
Yep, been there, done that. What yanks my chain is the producer who sees this as prefereable to 'plan well, track the project, do it well and on time'. I think we've all worked with a producer who used to be a gung ho programmer who thought nothing of 20 hour days and thinks that thats how you manage a project.
So apart from two of the (no offense) smaller game-industry business owners getting a unanimous cold shoulder from the rest, are there any other studio high-ups that read here? I'm guessing based on Haz's experience that it's pretty hard getting *any* response from most studios in Australia, let alone anything honest and deep about the problems they might be experiencing, even anonymised as "industry trends".
What about the student IGDA/GDAA movers-and-shakers? Anyone at QANTM/AIE/uni involved in their student industry body got any success talking to studio high-ups? I remember being part of the QUT Electrical Engineering club, *and* the student IEAust chapter where we had wine-and-cheese industry nights for students to meet and chat with industry people.
quote:Originally posted by mcdrewski
So apart from two of the (no offense) smaller game-industry business owners getting a unanimous cold shoulder from the rest, are there any other studio high-ups that read here?
Well, I'm not from Australia, but perhaps NZ is close enough?
What would you like to know?
Mario: yeah, go ahead.
quote:What about the student IGDA/GDAA movers-and-shakers? Anyone at QANTM/AIE/uni involved in their student industry body got any success talking to studio high-ups? I remember being part of the QUT Electrical Engineering club, *and* the student IEAust chapter where we had wine-and-cheese industry nights for students to meet and chat with industry people.
when the IGDA did their master classes earlier this year it was very successful - it was mostly attended by students, but there was a number of people from the industry there aswell, so i wouldnt say that studios are completly closed off. Still you get a lot from networking at AGDC, and it would be good to get that kind of thing i brisbane aswell. Also, tat reminds me, i've got to post someting in the IGDA forum...
quote:Originally posted by Mario
What would you like to know?
Choice*! Thanks!
Simple question - What do you see as the local industry's biggest problem or risk? What can we do to avoid it or turn it to our advantage?
And feel free to rant - we probably really need to hear honest (and possibly scary) words. After all - most of us are grownups here [:)]
*no offense meant - only intended as good natured trans-tasman ribbing...
Okay, well, how about I start with Sidhe Interactive, just so I'm not slinging mud at others exclusively :)
What We Do Well At Sidhe
* Good team and workplace environment
* Capability and projects across multiple platforms/genres
* Never, ever had to let anyone go because of a project cancellation or running out money etc
What We Don't Do Well At Sidhe
* We suck at responding to job applicants in a timely manner (sorry to any here reading this)
* We haven't eliminated unpaid overtime
* We are limited to a couple of key clients currently
The main challenge I think the Australasian industry faces is the apparent infighting. Lots of badmouthing companies and products, backstabbing, and poaching. And that creates people who aren't very happy. And thats a bigger problem than any technical or business challenges.
However, I don't think its just limited to the commercial studios themselves. Many aspirational developers such as those found on these forums are just as guilty of spreading rumour, over the top complaints, and generally creating a cynical environment.
Game development is hard to get into, and its hard when you get there. Every studio in every country has their share of problems. Australasia is not especially dysfunctional in this regard.
The reason it is such an issue is that its so hard to get ahead in this industry, especially with the challenges of next gen and the need for scale and shared resources, and pulling in different directions as a community just isn't very productive.
Its great to see companies come together for events like E3 where the Australian stand for example presents a strong, unified front with great capability (the GDAA does a great job with this each year). Turn that camaraderie and collaboration into a 24/7 year round affair and the Australasian region will become a sum which is greater than its parts and a force to be reckoned with.
Something like that anyway :)
quote:Originally posted by Mario
However, I don't think its just limited to the commercial studios themselves. Many aspirational developers such as those found on these forums are just as guilty of spreading rumour, over the top complaints, and generally creating a cynical environment.
[:)] Staying well away from what companies say about each other I'd suggest having a try at what some have been through (not talking about myself btw) before making that call.
Conference sessions with the topic "angry game developers vent their spleen" don't materialise out of nothing. Nor do Game Dev Grads Tell All panels and wonderful quotes like that one of Kipper's I quoted in the political games thread.
I'm going to quote Cynical Fan's list of hobbies from his profile
quote:
Slandering local industry studios for their mediocre second-rate efforts and illogical game development views effectively undermining their inflated sense of self importance, by revealing not-so-well-known industry "gossip" whilst utilising the super-hero identity of "Cynical Fan" so as to protect my true identity from death-threats and character assassinations.
Cynical is actually quite a friendly guy.
Might as well point it out seeing as mcdrewski posted the link to the program. The "Over the years I've said..." quote was Katharine Neil, who I've known for almost 8 years, studied music with, and have one hell of a lot of respect for.
Thanks though Mario. I don't agree with some points but I do with others.
quote:Originally posted by lorien
Conference sessions with the topic "angry game developers vent their spleen" don't materialise out of nothing. Nor do Game Dev Grads Tell All panels and wonderful quotes like that one of Kipper's I quoted in the political games thread.
Negativity breeds negativity, regardless of whether someone has actually been hard done by or not.
To reiterate, there may be many shortcomings of many individuals, studios, and training institutions in Australasia, but these are issues faced by the industry the world over. The industry overseas is not a utopia where these problems don't exist.
We need less whinging, pointing the finger, and kicking people when they are down, and more proactive action and constructive thinking.
quote:Originally posted by lorien
[:)] Staying well away from what companies say about each other I'd suggest having a try at what some have been through (not talking about myself btw) before making that call.
I know many feel they've been especially hard-done by in the industry, but I can't help but agree with Mario. As they say "worse things happen at sea", and many [url="http://www.sumea.com.au/sprofilepic.asp?p=A&news=1515"]as-bad or worse things happen in other industries[/url]. We learn, try to be constructive if possible and otherwise move on, 'cos after all life is too short.
Thanks very much for your thoughtful comments Mario - although I sense that there's an unvoiced wish that the GDAA here on the West Island could do more to include NZ. I for one think that Shed 5 is a good enough reason to include all of Wellington, but Auckland's another story [:)]
quote:Originally posted by mcdrewski
although I sense that there's an unvoiced wish that the GDAA here on the West Island could do more to include NZ.
Not at all. The GDAA has been very welcoming and accomodating of NZ developers with NZ being included in AGDC events and awards, GDAA GDC events, and have allowed us to join as a member if we wish etc. Couldn't ask for more really.
We have our own association to take care of the fundamentals in any case - www.nzgda.com
Mario makes good points, especially on negativity breeding negativity. You only have to see the annual spleen-off that takes place in the AGDC poll to see some evidence of this.
It is important to discuss negative industry trends or practices, but (as with most things)it's only really constructive if hyperbole and unsubstantiated rumour is avoided.
I'd like to propose something. Mario has set an excellent example with his pros & cons of working at Sidhe. I propose that anyone who wants to raise some issues in this thread does so in the same format and limits it to his/her own first hand working experience. That seems to me to be the best way of getting some meaningful data.
Whatcha think?
Speaking from my own experience it really takes some determination and guts to say things publicly that may not be popular with powerful people.
I think when people do it it means there are things that need sorting out. Particularly when students and graduates do it. Some of my students gave me a good flaming a while ago (they put it up on a very visible noticeboard too). I refused to take it down, and told them that if they were upset enough to do that then issues obviously needed sorting out- I also pointed out that it would have been smarter to wait until after marking was finished, but that it wasn't going to cost them. They took it down themselves.
As for the AGDC thing- I've said all I'm going to on that. If people want to keep their heads buried in the sand that's their own business. The AGDC is dead anyway imho- though this year it is undead... [:)]
I note Cynical's reference to "character assassination attempts". Those have been tried on me plenty of times. Does nothng at all to improve matters- doesn't work too well either when other areas (and countries) are in many ways more attractive than making fee for service games in aus for me.
I agree that negativity is not a great thing, it's quite a problem. But just asking it to go away isn't going to do much. There have been some very pissed off people coming to freeplay. Maybe the core of the problems needs to be solved?
Good to see the blind taking the initiative to lead the blind. I mean, if you guys didn’t stick together, and cling to what you know to be safe and well in your comfort zone, who knows where the hell you might end up!?
Perhaps somewhere new and maybe even better come to think of it ;).
As for negativity breeds negativity, I agree with Lorien. Sure negativity used wrongly will only breed more negativity, but not facing reality, but buying into something false, a pipedream of a façade, doesn’t help either. Only by having the courage to face these issues, will they be resolved, and the longevity, sustainability and growth of the local industry be assured.
BTW Mario, I think facing such issues is being “proactive” and “constructive.” I also think that so far you guys really didn’t understand what Sh*tHead’s intentions of this thread was, or what intentions others have in using it ;).
quote:cling to what you know to be safe and well in your comfort zone
Cynical Fan, if I'd done this, then I'd still be AP at MF, earning a regular salary. I wouldn't be running my own business. I definitely wouldn't have made a stand about the issues that were bothering me and resigned as a result.
I'm in absolute agreement with both you and lorien about the need to courageously and resolutely address negative industry trends and issues, such as quality of life, career development, industry development and fair pay. I just don't think that emotional hyperbole and anonymous flaming is the way to do it.
quote:Conference sessions with the topic "angry game developers vent their spleen" don't materialise out of nothing. Nor do Game Dev Grads Tell All panels and wonderful quotes like that one of Kipper's I quoted in the political games thread.
Well, if you remember the story of the Orson Welles radio broadcast of 'War of the Worlds' in the late thirties, a significant proportion of the listening public were apparently convinced an alien invasion was actually under way and reacted accordingly (hiding, looting and mass suicide). There was something behind this conviction and it was a fiction. Game developers are not immune to group hysteria, spin doctoring, blowing things out of proportion or just plain fibbing.
Yes, there are issues that need to be resolved. Blog and forum rants ain't gonna do it.
I'd just like to butt in and say that this is the reason I answered my thread in a 'action - reaction' type style, I think more of that is needed here.
We are barely getting responses by calling, or emailing, sending a digital 'portfolio & showreel' to potential AU based clients. My reaction to that is to up the anti and start turning up on doorsteps, presentations, conferences, pretty much everything and anything to get the name of our studio out there and in circulation.
What I was hoping for was studio's with a deeper and more gnarly set of roots to perhaps offer advice - Is there anything else you think that Kalescent Studios could do aside from the current action plan above that could bring on board alot more respect, anchor our name firmly in the minds of au developers - or just generally increase exposure.
quote:Originally posted by Simon
Game developers are not immune to group hysteria, spin doctoring, blowing things out of proportion or just plain fibbing.
Everyone has a different sense of proportion. Mine is different to studio employees and management- I work with students every day and I am one. And after getting completely ripped off and burnt myself I'm rather protective of students in general. Particularly where the games industry is concerened:
How many people does the aus industry actually employ?
How many games courses are there?
How many games-specific graduates are there each year?
How many are there from past years that are still wanting to get into the industry?
How many of those that get a games job have been laid off within a year and haven't worked in another studio since?
What happens to all the students who go deep into debt because they really want to make games, only to find the chances of that are so astronomically low it is really quite a joke?
Is it ethical to use the same marketing techniques that sell games for ~$100, to sell training/education for often 200 times or more that amount?
If I've told any untruths I'm unaware of how they are untrue. Kipper doesn't lie much either btw. When I want to read a pack of lies I just have to visit a few websites that are quite well known here.
Simon, to me that seems like yet another character assassination attempt.
End of thread for me I think.
Let me first off say Simon, congratulations for taking it upon yourself to take the big leap and strive to make things better for yourself, by leaving MF and starting your own business – good luck with all that, honestly :).
Now, I don’t know where you get off on accusing those of us that have spoken out against the status-quo as being: hysterical, spin doctoring, blowing things out of proportion fibbers. I mean, who really started that cluster-fuck of a pole comment thread, which side of the “flame-war” started the flame war. I know that I didn’t initiate an attack to silence individuals from speaking out, of talking about their experiences of working in the industry.
You say that blog and forum rants aren’t the way to do this, but is most certainly is a good starting point, to get your message out there so that others can know that they are not alone in their experiences and in their thoughts about the industry. I mean really, why is it that you think we are getting a new conference next year other than the AGDC? Does it have anything to do with individuals speaking out, perhaps “ranting” as you put it?
As for anonymous, well, not everyone posts on these threads with the aim to promote and / or to recruit. So they see no need to show who they are, and to make contrived statements about themselves, especially since I wasn’t joking about the “death-threats” and “character-assassinations.” I’ve had my share of both, and while neither one daunts me as I find them pathetic, they are an irritation and waste of my time. Anyway, anyone with half a brain can figure out who I am, and I do not feel the need to reveal myself as I find it far more amusing not to ;).
BTW: I don’t know where you get emotional hyperbole from, I have been quite calm in all my posts to date :).
Sorry Lorien, it wasn't meant to be a character assassination and I certainly wasn't accusing you of lying. Hell, I don't even know you. I was merely pointing out that what large numbers of people believe to be true is not necessarily the truth (witness the interest rates scare during the last federal election), which is why quantifiable evidence is so important in building a case for change.
Once again, I'm very sorry if you felt I was making a personal attack upon you. I wasn't.
I don’t think Lorien really took offense if it was or wasn’t meant, rather, he is just a little tired of this routine and has more important ways at the moment to use his time - I'm sure he would say the same if he hadn't decided to leave this thread.
Anyway, post-ya-later folks, I’m off to a meeting!
I wasn't actually calling anyone hysterical or a liar, just pointing out (not terribly well as it turns out)that unsubstantiated hearsay is not as useful as substantiated evidence.
Yep, blogs and forums (fora?) are a good place to start, but not a good place to finish if you see what I mean.
quote:As for anonymous, well, not everyone posts on these threads with the aim to promote and / or to recruit. So they see no need to show who they are
Fair enough. I prefer to let people know who I am and have done so since I signed up here (pre-self promotion phase). Mind you, I haven't suffered any death threats.
I very rarely write to the forum for fear of becoming involved in a flame war as I know I'm a fairly good target. But I needed to answer the claim that a number of schools are churning out game graduates without caring whether they get jobs or not. I can only speak for AIE Melb but last year over 70% of our students found jobs in the industry with 4 in the U.S and U.K. This year over 50% of our students have been offered game industry work prior to graduation.
I just wanted to set the record straight on that point.
Thanks
Good luck getting any "secret studios business" there sleepy, most people seem far too professional to give facts that they know, and those who mention rumors and hearsay are mostly just reading between the lines.
Of course, I'd love to hear this sort of discussion. What dangers is the industry facing? Is it outsourcing, next-gen ramp-up? licensing? I'd love to think that some high-up industry people here would do a [url="http://crystaltips.typepad.com/wonderland/2005/03/burn_the_house_.html"]burn the house down[/url] style session at AGDC or whatever GDAA conference we end up with next year. Don't think it's in their studio's interests to do so though, more's the pity.