Short Film

thats like asking what makes a good painting, theres so many genres and variables that are in place that all can acheive a good film. Ive done a few shorts myself and ive just started filming another (yeh im like that multimedia guy at school, cept i dont do slide shows :P )

Whats your idea? that would help a lot in discussing how to make a good short.

Oh and by the way it costs a lot unless you have access to school/UNI editing studio and cameras n stuff.

I will be doing a fully animated short, so there is no flim cost or anything. I can't tell you my idea for a number of reasons, mainly because I'm still working out how to show it, and this is why I'm asking the question. I'm looking for your opinions on this.

What do you all like to see in a flim? So I can try and work out the common link between all these opinions.

I have found a number of things that I do believe makes the difference between a good film and a bad flim which are found it all the films that have done really well. I'm just seeing what you all think and then I will make a large post about my findings when I get the time.

Doord, how long do you plan to make this short film? 30 secs, 2 mins, 10 mins? What genre will it be, comedy, action, adventure, horror (I'm yet to see a short animated period drama;))? Until we know at least a little more about it it will be hard to give specifics.

Generally though, work on a good solid script to start with, cause if there's no story behind it, no matter how short it is, it will just end up being eye candy. Other things that make good films, memorable, likeable characters, good direction, good shot selection, tight editing, eye catching visuals, originality etc.

Hope this helps.

I like the bizarre and weird, not to mention a bit of horror, Icant really tell you what makes a good film, but my guess is a good movie should be engrossing and atmospheric with attention to detail.

In my opinion it all boils down to either a good story line Eg: LOTR or a shit load of carnage Eg: LOTR or Blade 2 or even freddy vs jason. I also love like army movies, like tears of the sun and black hawk down.

so are you going for something like the pixar shorts doord?

It will be a dark comedy, and 5-7 min long. There is a flim fest I wish to enter it into and I think with that time limit it should fit into many more. Also I do have a little idea I wish to past on to poeple.

I will write up what I have worked out this weekend, also I found out more stuff today from asking the very question.

What I'm looking to work out is what I love in flim and put it into words so that I can make a flim that I'm more then happy with. I find talking to like minded poeple helps a lot.

A twist or an otherwise clever ending.
You want people to show your film to others just to see their reaction.

well im intrigued, might i suggest tropfest? http://www.tropfest.com/

unfortunatly that just happened so youd have to wait till next year, but its one of the most respected and well known short film festivals in the world.

I assume your doing a 3D animation right? or do you plan to use flash or something...
oh and about the black comedy thing, great! :D love my black comedys :P

EDIT: this years comedy section winner was a animated one man piece, interesting ;)

Yeah I think Tropfest would be the one I will be aiming for. I think I would be aim for tropfest 2007, I have a very hi mark I wish to hit with the film and I will not be starting the 3D side until the start of next year, which give me now until then to work out the story, do story broads and character concept/design, all per production stuff.

I?m in the process of writing a doc for what I'm aiming for with the film.

MoonUnit: what have your shorts been about, and what is the latest one about?

well ill run you through my short film short history ( ;) )
there was a assesment task in english to do a short, for fun there was a comp between the groups in the class and then the year level, my groups won it :) it was a basic comedy
after that we made another one for the heck of it, it was basicly the same deal
after that i was asked to make a bit of a propaganda film for this thing school was doing.
im going to be doing another little school film soon but now im working on my personal project, a black comedy about the end of the world. :D

Write it well and plan it out as carefully as you can before you begin development. Even with such a short film you can fall behind very quickly due to bad planning, especially if you have a deadline to enter it into a festival.

I worked with a small group on a somewhat over-ambitious Sci-Fi Kung Fu Action short during Film & TV in high school. It was supposed to be 5 - 10 minutes in length and should've taken about 3 months to complete. Due to poor planning and shit just going wrong it ended up taking about 5 months and went for about 13 minutes. We missed the competition dead-line due to overtime and had to cut the one scene that explained the story. No-one really understood it, but it looked cool so people liked it all the same.

It ended up okay though I guess. I'll put it up on my website when I get around to putting up my website :)

TheBigT: Thanks for the head up I have been making sure of this.

I have had this sent to me, very good rules to follow I think.

---------
Rules of spare time anim development [from Rustboy forums]:
Great topic.
Having made a few short films myself over the last several years, I've learned a few things about the mind tricks I need to play on myself to help me stay focused and finish what I'm working on.

1. Don't allow yourself to start anything new until you finish what's on your plate. (I call this my "No Dessert 'til You Finish Your Peas" rule). If a new idea flashes into your head while in the middle of a project (and that's when the good ones come!), allow yourself one day to do whatever you need to do to capture that new thing. In that day I'll usually write what there is to the story or situation, draw a few concept sketches, maybe start a 3d model if I know what I want, grab some reference JPEGs online, take some notes on the style. Then, I take all that and put it on a shelf, and I don't touch it til I finish this current idea.

2. Remember, this thing was a really cool idea long, long ago. If I've gotten this involved in it, then it's passed muster on several levels (story, characters, style, etc). It's worth finishing, even if I hate it right now and am totally insecure about how it'll turn out. You gotta trust your initial instincts and the results of your due diligence in making sure this was something worth starting wayback when.

2a. Don't start it until you know for sure it's got legs. This stage for me usually occurs when I'm writing my script. I'll do an outline, then a full screenplay for the film. If I can't solve my major issues in Word, no amount of work in Maya is gonna fix it.

3. Make an inspirational clip. What I do, fairly early on in the production stage, I'll make a clip that is taken all the way out to final render & post. This step usually requires that at least one character and one location be finished and the Look of Film exploraton stage has been pretty well worked out. I then will animate this one character in this one location, light it, render it and post it all the way til it's final quality. I then keep this clip on my hard drive. When I'm losing a sense of purpose or focus on the project, I pull this little clip out and remind myself that when I'm done I'm gonna have 3-6 minutes of a film and every frame of it will look this cool when it's done. It's a great pick me up.

4. When you're really burnt, walk away for at least 2 weeks. This was a real problem for me on my short film "Evelyn". At one point I was so frustrated with the software and the computer, the story felt sappy and manipulative and not sincere, the poigniant moments had been blanched to feel like a cheap Vegas showgirl and it was starting to affect the quality of the work. When this happens, take a minimum 2 week break. I am just now coming off of a 2 month long break that I imposed on myself on my current short. I had just finished my location modeling & texturing and character rigging as well as scripting an entire workflow pipeline in MEL & Maxscript and was starting into my 3d animatic when I knew that my camera choices were all wrong and my sense of composition was not working. So I took a break to give my mind a rest and allow it to defocus from the very techie stuff I had been working on for months. During that 2 months I did a bunch of animation tests, something new and fresh and different, and best of all, each one very short and focused. I also did some writing, a little designing, reading, etc. Now that I've come back to the film I've got a fresh eye and a spring to my step that was lacking before.

5. Know what you're good at and design a story/premise/film that takes the best advantage of your preferences and strengths. If you hate to model (that'd be me) and find character rigging & skinning is a chore (guilty as charged, your honor) or if you find yourself in a glassy eyed stupor whenever you start messing with particles (who me?) then make sure you don't do something as elaborate as Doug Chiang's "Robota" or that really well done 12 minute student work "f8". Design to fit your prefs and you'll better avoid feeling trapped by a story/film that is more work than fun.

6. As soon as you can, cut together as much finished footage as you have. This for me usually occurs somewhere in the middle of animation. I'm tired, I've been working piecemeal on different components for months. I have lost the sense of wholeness in all the prop modeling, texture painting, lighting tests, animation, rigging, 3d layout. It feels more like a giant pile of spare parts than a film. So I'll take a week or so to light and render what animation I have finished, and then cut it together in Premiere with the music and a few sound fx. Next thing you know you've got 30 seconds of cool stuff that's finished and you can see the light at the end of the tunnel. This has really helped me get some second wind for the home stretch.

Anyhow, that's what I try and do. It's helped me finish 5 short films (altho the first two barely count, being only 55 & 200 seconds long) and it's helping me to keep going on my 6th. And yes, the inklings of an idea for #7 are starting to stick up through the soil and I may need to take my day off here soon to try and capture that.

The thing I need help with is promotions. I have to say I envy Brian's ability to promote his project. I just find myself wanting to be done with it, so I've mostly let the films die after completion. Submission to fests, keeping up a regular website, cranking out sneek peek renders... I need an intern.
----------

MoonUnit: hee hee my flim is 'kind of' about a new start to the world.

sounds interesting, be sure to keep us posted :)

Thats an excellent set of rules to follow. I think #1 caused us the most problems, plus lack of organisation between the group (one guy should be doing one thing so that another guy can get his job done, etc). I assume your working on this individually so you thats one problem you won't have to worry about.

What makes a good short film?

Story.

Its not within my powers to help you there. Because its somthing im learning as well. Id suggest a copy of Robert McKee's book 'Story' its a book on how to write screenplay.

If your looking for helpfull feedback here is an exerpt.

"A writer secure in his talent Knows there's no limit to what he can create, and so he trashes everything less than his best on a quest for a gem quality story"

Somthing ive found particulay interesting, is his decription of "writing from the inside out"

Basically he says that the strrggling writer tends to have a way of working that goes somthing like this.
He dreams up an idea, noodles on it for a while, then rushes to the keyboard, and he imagines and writes, writes and dreams, untill he reaches 120 pages and stops. He then hands out copies to freinds and back come their reactions.

"I liked the scene with the kids and the paint, that was soo sweet. The beach scene was so romantic, and when the car blew up, exciting. But i dont know... theres somthing about the ending... and the middle... and the way it starts... that dosnt work for me."

So the struggling writer goes back and does a re-write, clinging on to those few good ideas and trying desperatly to make it fit. Again the reaction from his freinds are the same, so he does a thirddraft, and a forth and fith, but the process is always the same. Cling onto those few good scenes retelling the story, trying to make it fit.
Untill one day he burns out, declares the story finished, and releases a flop. Blaming the philistine tastes of the audience.

that is the "Writing from the outside in"

what he suggests is "writing from the inside out" which is

these writers typically spend the first four monthes writing on stacks of 3by5 cards: a stack for each act. On the cards they create a step outline.
Using one or 2 sentances, the writer clearly describes what happens in each scene, how it builds and turns. for eg "He enters expecting to find her at home, but instead discovers her note saying shes left for good" On the back of each card the writer indicates what step in the design of the story he sees this scene fulfillng
He confines himself to stacks of cards for months on end for this critical reason: He knows that 90% of what he writes is mediocre at best, regardless of his genuis, he is not affraid to toss a good idea away.
Day after day the huge stac grows, they are biographies, the fictional world and its history.
Finally after months, the writer discovers his stories climax. Whith that in hand, he reworks, as needed, backward from it. At last he has a story.

Now he goes to his freinds, but rather than asking for a day of their lives reading his script. He asks for ten minuts of thier time pours a cup of coffee. Then he pitches his story.

Without showing the step outline, he pitches his idea, and studies their reaction, seeing if thier eyes wander, and that he is holding thier attention, all the way up to the stories climax, did it get the reaction he was hoping for. Untill a good majority respond with enthusiasm, there is no point going forward.

Just a reminder from the [url="http://www.sumea.com.au/scalendar.asp"]Sumea Calendar[/url] that the locally made 22 minute clay-mation short film "Harvie Krumpet" that won the Academy Award for Best Short Film (Animated) is going to be on SBS on Monday 8 March at 9.00pm.

I'll make a news post on Monday as a reminder for everyone.

please do, ive been dying to see that, theres a banner thing out front of the vic colledge of the arts saying "well done on the oscar adam" (or something to that effect) :P and damn right to! (i would never have thought someone like a small time melbounrne claymation animator could win a oscar!!)

"i would never have thought someone like a small time melbounrne claymation animator could win a oscar!!"

Dont assume that just because its australian its small, or that it is somehow the underdog.

Especially when Adams uncle, Geoffrey Rush, is lending voice talent.
along with other notable aussie icons as Julie Forsyth, Kamahl, and
John Flaus.

This is not Adams first success either. The trilogy, Uncle, Cousin and Brother are also award winning. I woldnt call that small time.
Harvie Krumpet would have been alot of grueling work. And I know that $377,000 compared to the multi-million dollar productions of the other contenders isnt much, but its no chump-change.

Harvie Krumpet is a great short, and it really was my favorite of the ones that where nominated.

But i dont like the mentality that australians are less likly to find success or recognition abroad. Or that just because it is australian it must be small time.

I agree if you havnt seen it, you must watch it tonight. And even if you have its worth a second veiwing.

storyboard everything! and I mean Everything! planning is the most important part... remember it dosent matter how good your story is.. but how you deliver it, use narrative techniques whereever possible! I wouldnt start work until your storyboard flows as your want and actually works to deliver the content of the story!