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Challenges Facing New Developers

Forum

Caution: Long rambling post!

I'm pretty obsessed with game development and tend to ramble on about it to anyone who will listen, but sadly I still haven't managed to land a job. Often this leads to people asking me why I haven't taken the plunge and started my own team and there are of course many reasons but I thought it might be interesting to analyse some of them in a bit more detail and gather other peoples thoughts. In particular I'd like to discuss money as I think there has already been plenty written about business, leadership, design and the techinical challenges involved with game development.

For the sake of focusing the discussion, let's assume the following scenario which to me doesn't seem to unrealistic for a dedicated person who really wants to get into the industry...

Bob is a programmer who has a decent education, maybe a uni degree, and has spent way to many late nights making games as a hobby. He wants to get into game development but hasn't had any luck with the local companies (I'm sure this sounds familiar to some of you...) so decides to try and start a team. He manages to find 1 or two other people who share his obsession and are willing to dedicate themselves even with the understanding that there will be no pay, at least to start with.

They plan to start by spending a few weeks on a simple game to figure out how they work together and establish some sort of teamwork, maybe a nice polished tetris clone. After that they plan to work on something slightly more ambitious which they can use as a demo project to hopefully secure some outsourced work or maybe even a small publishing deal. They might even want to give the shareware market a go.

Let's assume they have the necasary skills to pull it off, they can program, make pretty art and Bob is a reasonable leader with his head screwed on (OK we're assuming alot but nevermind...). What is it going to take them just to get this far, let's see...

A Work Place

Whether they decide to rent an office or work in Bobs Mums basement, there is probably going to be some rent that needs paying and rent isn't cheap. Note that I am assuming a permanent face to face working environment as I feel working online is not suitable for a serious team of this sort. This is a regular ongoing expense.

Equipment

At the least they will need a computer each and the appropriate software, a desk to sit it all on would be handy too. Software such as Visual Studio costs an arm and a leg as does most things artists use. Hardware costs less these days but is still a big set back for a team with no income. This is a one off expense, if we ignore future upgrades and maintenance...

Living

Bob and the team need to pay their own rent and they need to pay things like the food and power bill at home. While these aren't really related to the team they are definately issues if there isn't going to be any money handed out.

Extras

There's a bunch of other smaller things that might add up also. The team will probably want some sort of internet connection. Bob probably needs to establish a legal entity of some sort to protect himself and the others. No doubt the team will want a little bit of recreation at some stage and even a beer at the local is a big expense when you have nothing!

So what are the options? How does Bob get around these obstacles?

What The Team Already Owns

We're assuming the people involved are dedicated enough to start work with no income. Chances are they already have some equipment of their own that they might be willing to contribute, computers, software etc. This isn't ideal but might help with the initial one off costs. Considering these are young people with little experience I wouldn't expect them to have any money savings worth mentioning.

Work On The Side

Part time work elsewhere is an option though I'm not sure it's a good one. A team that is already stressed from working 2 jobs is going to be distracted and not nearly as productive.

Grants, Investments

To be honest there is very little chance anyone would be willing to put money towards this team until they have some results to show. That's why they are starting small and working up right?

Open Source, Free

This really only applies to software but there are alternate options for development, while Microsoft Visual C++ seems to be the most popular it is costly and there are other options. I'm not sure about the sound and art areas, maybe there are cheaper options there too.

Hmm what have I missed? I am after all a programmer at heart so sorry if I have glossed over the other areas of game development, it's not that I don't care! Once the team finds their feet they would probably look at slowly growing the team and it's assets, where are their feet though? It really doesn't look promising for Bob, unfortunately, and this if probably a fairly good answer to "Why haven't you started a team yet?" as well.

Well that turned out rather longer than I expected, I'd love to hear any of your thoughts on it all and any suggestions as to things I have missed, this is after all just a rough thinking post. Oh and could anyone here see themselves giving something like this a shot?

Submitted by davidcoen on Sun, 14/03/04 - 2:24 PM Permalink

bob's option is pretty much to get something decent finished by himself, and use that the seed interest in other project with people (either to invest time or money)

and anyway, you can get vc7 standard for $180....

Submitted by bullet21 on Sun, 14/03/04 - 7:34 PM Permalink

wow, that was really insightful. I alwaysa sked the question "why don't you start your own studio" and now i know. On ya Barry.

Submitted by Barry Dahlberg on Sun, 14/03/04 - 9:35 PM Permalink

quote:Originally posted by davidcoen

and anyway, you can get vc7 standard for $180....

Oh, I guess I'm a a little misinformed there huh? Anyway the post helped me think through all those issues in my head and sort them out, was an interesting exercise.

Submitted by Kalescent on Sun, 14/03/04 - 9:54 PM Permalink

Bob's sounds awfully familiar to alot of people i talk to Bazza,

And its not something id like to repeat here but i will, to be blunt and honest, a brilliant coder whose name shall remain (*&@$&%*&^ for the time being, has worked in the australian dev scene for 12 years now, been an active hand in starting one of australia's biggest dev teams.

He spoke to me the other day and told me that NO dev team without former "INDUSTRY" knowledge, has ever succeeded in all of his 12 years he has never seen not even a single startup take a project, land a deal, and spit the game out the other end.

He doesnt put this down to lack of dedication, lack of talent, even lack of resources, but simply a lack of experience. THe experience of how to deal with the torrential rush of problems that occur when trying to get payment for your milestone deadline which is fast approaching.

Sure money is going to come into mostly - try telling your team members they are going to have to work 18-20 hour days for the next 4 weeks withuot paying them. and see how long their enthusiasm lasts.

In one way speaking to (*&^(*&)(& made me go " shit, is it really that bad " , in another way it made me go " Bah! ill be the FIRST!!!, i can do anything!! "

At the end of the conversation however he did say to me the reason why he has seen no Inexperienced startup company suceed, is simply because when times get tough - people give up.

Thats where experience and industry knowledge helps out alot. ( or so ive been told )

To conclude, 5 out of 5 bigwigs ive spoken to regarding our industry have all told me - to get a job inside one of the bigger dev teams - gets some exeprience so you can see what its really like to work and finish a project, and then come back in a couple of years and try start something of your own. - whether this was because they fear your awesome competetion or not, eludes me at this point, but i highly doubt thats the reason [;)]

Submitted by Pantmonger on Sun, 14/03/04 - 10:17 PM Permalink

I think the another big problem with the lots of work no pay teams, is management. When working for free you want to work on something you like, its all well and good to work on things you don?t like when someone is paying you to do so but when there is no money you need to be interested in what you are doing.

This makes for a problem, every person in the team will want to work on what they are interested in game wise, they are all contributing their time so they will all want a say. The problem is that this kind of equal work equal voice democratic process never seems to work. There is too much chaos, nothing gets done so a benevolent dictator is needed, someone who has the final say on things. Problem is once creative control has been taken away from you and you decide you don?t like the direction the project is going it is very easy to give up on it, after all its not ?your? project anymore.

Another big issue is skill level. Unless you are making a startup because it is your dream to do so you will encounter this problem. If you decided to get a team together because you could not get work elsewhere and members of your team have joined for the same reason, you risk loosing them to offers of paid work. The more skilled they are the greater the chance of them getting work. This kind of thing means you are forever loosing your most skilled people, and in the end your product will be created by those who are left, this does not bode well.

What it comes down to is like most other businesses, you have to want to start the business, its not something you do while waiting for something else to come along. To start a business you need capital, its just the way it is. If these things are in place you can offer people positions knowing full well what they can expect in return.

Pantmonger

Submitted by Barry Dahlberg on Sun, 14/03/04 - 10:57 PM Permalink

Oh yeah there are definately alot of issues facing Bob, haha, I purposely avoided management and personel type issues in that discussion but they are not something to be forgotten.

Submitted by smeg on Mon, 15/03/04 - 12:43 AM Permalink

It is possible to get something off the ground with a group of, say, 3 key people and no money. But lets face it, its damn near impossible.

The problem is you have to know how hard development is, and how you are going to pick your battles so that you will come out the other side with a good demo, or better yet, something you can sell.

These decisions are almost impossible to make without decent experience (either within the industry, or through failed mods or other projects).

The other problem is commited people. If team is not committed (to quality work, to the project, to its long term goals, to its short term goals), you are doomed. It is that simple.

It is bleak. But there are options open to small development teams. You may want to work on XBOX2 and PS3, but if you (AND YOUR TEAM) can choke down some humble pie, there are opportunities out there.

Good luck.

Submitted by Red 5 on Mon, 15/03/04 - 2:37 AM Permalink

I don't want to sound too negative here but I don't see a bright future at all for small start-ups considering the way the industry appears to be headed.
Even outstanding demos rarely cut it anymore and how many start-ups can afford to finish a game before proposing it to a publisher?
Give me one reason why a publisher would take a huge financial gamble on an unknown over a studio with a proven track record... you can't say because of originality and a fresh approach because that doesn't count for anything anymore. No licence or franchise generally means no game.

Submitted by smeg on Mon, 15/03/04 - 4:18 AM Permalink

It's not just about publishers. In fact, as time goes on, its becoming les and less about publishers (unless of course they change their approach).

i highly recommend everyone read article. It is by no means definitive, but it certainly is a good place to start.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/passfieldgames/1773.html

cheers

Forum

Caution: Long rambling post!

I'm pretty obsessed with game development and tend to ramble on about it to anyone who will listen, but sadly I still haven't managed to land a job. Often this leads to people asking me why I haven't taken the plunge and started my own team and there are of course many reasons but I thought it might be interesting to analyse some of them in a bit more detail and gather other peoples thoughts. In particular I'd like to discuss money as I think there has already been plenty written about business, leadership, design and the techinical challenges involved with game development.

For the sake of focusing the discussion, let's assume the following scenario which to me doesn't seem to unrealistic for a dedicated person who really wants to get into the industry...

Bob is a programmer who has a decent education, maybe a uni degree, and has spent way to many late nights making games as a hobby. He wants to get into game development but hasn't had any luck with the local companies (I'm sure this sounds familiar to some of you...) so decides to try and start a team. He manages to find 1 or two other people who share his obsession and are willing to dedicate themselves even with the understanding that there will be no pay, at least to start with.

They plan to start by spending a few weeks on a simple game to figure out how they work together and establish some sort of teamwork, maybe a nice polished tetris clone. After that they plan to work on something slightly more ambitious which they can use as a demo project to hopefully secure some outsourced work or maybe even a small publishing deal. They might even want to give the shareware market a go.

Let's assume they have the necasary skills to pull it off, they can program, make pretty art and Bob is a reasonable leader with his head screwed on (OK we're assuming alot but nevermind...). What is it going to take them just to get this far, let's see...

A Work Place

Whether they decide to rent an office or work in Bobs Mums basement, there is probably going to be some rent that needs paying and rent isn't cheap. Note that I am assuming a permanent face to face working environment as I feel working online is not suitable for a serious team of this sort. This is a regular ongoing expense.

Equipment

At the least they will need a computer each and the appropriate software, a desk to sit it all on would be handy too. Software such as Visual Studio costs an arm and a leg as does most things artists use. Hardware costs less these days but is still a big set back for a team with no income. This is a one off expense, if we ignore future upgrades and maintenance...

Living

Bob and the team need to pay their own rent and they need to pay things like the food and power bill at home. While these aren't really related to the team they are definately issues if there isn't going to be any money handed out.

Extras

There's a bunch of other smaller things that might add up also. The team will probably want some sort of internet connection. Bob probably needs to establish a legal entity of some sort to protect himself and the others. No doubt the team will want a little bit of recreation at some stage and even a beer at the local is a big expense when you have nothing!

So what are the options? How does Bob get around these obstacles?

What The Team Already Owns

We're assuming the people involved are dedicated enough to start work with no income. Chances are they already have some equipment of their own that they might be willing to contribute, computers, software etc. This isn't ideal but might help with the initial one off costs. Considering these are young people with little experience I wouldn't expect them to have any money savings worth mentioning.

Work On The Side

Part time work elsewhere is an option though I'm not sure it's a good one. A team that is already stressed from working 2 jobs is going to be distracted and not nearly as productive.

Grants, Investments

To be honest there is very little chance anyone would be willing to put money towards this team until they have some results to show. That's why they are starting small and working up right?

Open Source, Free

This really only applies to software but there are alternate options for development, while Microsoft Visual C++ seems to be the most popular it is costly and there are other options. I'm not sure about the sound and art areas, maybe there are cheaper options there too.

Hmm what have I missed? I am after all a programmer at heart so sorry if I have glossed over the other areas of game development, it's not that I don't care! Once the team finds their feet they would probably look at slowly growing the team and it's assets, where are their feet though? It really doesn't look promising for Bob, unfortunately, and this if probably a fairly good answer to "Why haven't you started a team yet?" as well.

Well that turned out rather longer than I expected, I'd love to hear any of your thoughts on it all and any suggestions as to things I have missed, this is after all just a rough thinking post. Oh and could anyone here see themselves giving something like this a shot?


Submitted by davidcoen on Sun, 14/03/04 - 2:24 PM Permalink

bob's option is pretty much to get something decent finished by himself, and use that the seed interest in other project with people (either to invest time or money)

and anyway, you can get vc7 standard for $180....

Submitted by bullet21 on Sun, 14/03/04 - 7:34 PM Permalink

wow, that was really insightful. I alwaysa sked the question "why don't you start your own studio" and now i know. On ya Barry.

Submitted by Barry Dahlberg on Sun, 14/03/04 - 9:35 PM Permalink

quote:Originally posted by davidcoen

and anyway, you can get vc7 standard for $180....

Oh, I guess I'm a a little misinformed there huh? Anyway the post helped me think through all those issues in my head and sort them out, was an interesting exercise.

Submitted by Kalescent on Sun, 14/03/04 - 9:54 PM Permalink

Bob's sounds awfully familiar to alot of people i talk to Bazza,

And its not something id like to repeat here but i will, to be blunt and honest, a brilliant coder whose name shall remain (*&@$&%*&^ for the time being, has worked in the australian dev scene for 12 years now, been an active hand in starting one of australia's biggest dev teams.

He spoke to me the other day and told me that NO dev team without former "INDUSTRY" knowledge, has ever succeeded in all of his 12 years he has never seen not even a single startup take a project, land a deal, and spit the game out the other end.

He doesnt put this down to lack of dedication, lack of talent, even lack of resources, but simply a lack of experience. THe experience of how to deal with the torrential rush of problems that occur when trying to get payment for your milestone deadline which is fast approaching.

Sure money is going to come into mostly - try telling your team members they are going to have to work 18-20 hour days for the next 4 weeks withuot paying them. and see how long their enthusiasm lasts.

In one way speaking to (*&^(*&)(& made me go " shit, is it really that bad " , in another way it made me go " Bah! ill be the FIRST!!!, i can do anything!! "

At the end of the conversation however he did say to me the reason why he has seen no Inexperienced startup company suceed, is simply because when times get tough - people give up.

Thats where experience and industry knowledge helps out alot. ( or so ive been told )

To conclude, 5 out of 5 bigwigs ive spoken to regarding our industry have all told me - to get a job inside one of the bigger dev teams - gets some exeprience so you can see what its really like to work and finish a project, and then come back in a couple of years and try start something of your own. - whether this was because they fear your awesome competetion or not, eludes me at this point, but i highly doubt thats the reason [;)]

Submitted by Pantmonger on Sun, 14/03/04 - 10:17 PM Permalink

I think the another big problem with the lots of work no pay teams, is management. When working for free you want to work on something you like, its all well and good to work on things you don?t like when someone is paying you to do so but when there is no money you need to be interested in what you are doing.

This makes for a problem, every person in the team will want to work on what they are interested in game wise, they are all contributing their time so they will all want a say. The problem is that this kind of equal work equal voice democratic process never seems to work. There is too much chaos, nothing gets done so a benevolent dictator is needed, someone who has the final say on things. Problem is once creative control has been taken away from you and you decide you don?t like the direction the project is going it is very easy to give up on it, after all its not ?your? project anymore.

Another big issue is skill level. Unless you are making a startup because it is your dream to do so you will encounter this problem. If you decided to get a team together because you could not get work elsewhere and members of your team have joined for the same reason, you risk loosing them to offers of paid work. The more skilled they are the greater the chance of them getting work. This kind of thing means you are forever loosing your most skilled people, and in the end your product will be created by those who are left, this does not bode well.

What it comes down to is like most other businesses, you have to want to start the business, its not something you do while waiting for something else to come along. To start a business you need capital, its just the way it is. If these things are in place you can offer people positions knowing full well what they can expect in return.

Pantmonger

Submitted by Barry Dahlberg on Sun, 14/03/04 - 10:57 PM Permalink

Oh yeah there are definately alot of issues facing Bob, haha, I purposely avoided management and personel type issues in that discussion but they are not something to be forgotten.

Submitted by smeg on Mon, 15/03/04 - 12:43 AM Permalink

It is possible to get something off the ground with a group of, say, 3 key people and no money. But lets face it, its damn near impossible.

The problem is you have to know how hard development is, and how you are going to pick your battles so that you will come out the other side with a good demo, or better yet, something you can sell.

These decisions are almost impossible to make without decent experience (either within the industry, or through failed mods or other projects).

The other problem is commited people. If team is not committed (to quality work, to the project, to its long term goals, to its short term goals), you are doomed. It is that simple.

It is bleak. But there are options open to small development teams. You may want to work on XBOX2 and PS3, but if you (AND YOUR TEAM) can choke down some humble pie, there are opportunities out there.

Good luck.

Submitted by Red 5 on Mon, 15/03/04 - 2:37 AM Permalink

I don't want to sound too negative here but I don't see a bright future at all for small start-ups considering the way the industry appears to be headed.
Even outstanding demos rarely cut it anymore and how many start-ups can afford to finish a game before proposing it to a publisher?
Give me one reason why a publisher would take a huge financial gamble on an unknown over a studio with a proven track record... you can't say because of originality and a fresh approach because that doesn't count for anything anymore. No licence or franchise generally means no game.

Submitted by smeg on Mon, 15/03/04 - 4:18 AM Permalink

It's not just about publishers. In fact, as time goes on, its becoming les and less about publishers (unless of course they change their approach).

i highly recommend everyone read article. It is by no means definitive, but it certainly is a good place to start.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/passfieldgames/1773.html

cheers