Gamer or Game Developer

Great topic.

When I look to the state of the industry I can't help but be reminded of what happened to corporate IT only a few years ago.

Not so long ago when IT was booming and there was a lack of skilled labour, it was perceived that anyone that could wrap themselves around a computer would find themselves a stable, well paid career... if not become a millionaire! Subsequently there was an explosion in IT enrolments at universities and the market became flooded.

Fast forward to today and the IT sector is so saturated that the chances of finding that career become laughable.

Having studied IT at uni, I also harbour an uneasy feeling that a generalised curriculum in a restricted timeframe makes most graduates superfluous. Academics have a habit of adding fluff and pomp to a course, sacrificing relevancy. Thanks to my IT course for example, I'm also versed in statute law, psychology, and Asian Pacific trade history!

These issues I feel parallel the world of games today. As games careers are increasingly being shown as more and more viable, not only are more graduates being churned out, but more and more educational institutions are racing to offer game related courses.

The end result is a sea of questionably skilled hopefuls breaking against the industry wall like water.

As a person who has been on the receiving end of game job applications I would have to agree with you HazarD, that the level of skillusefulness is at times quite low. This is where I feel communites like Sumea offer an invaluable service in separating the cream.

Consider the number of entries at the beginning of a Sumea Challenge VS the number of completed works. Over time, this service of distinguishing those that can work to a spec in a given time and finish will become increasingly valuable.

I personally feel that the solution to tightening up the situation lies in the hands of the educational institutions. Restrict course access to those 5-10 who have a chance at getting a job. Those that demonstrate a level of personal effort showing that they understand what they're getting themselves into.

Leave the specialised training to organisations such as QANTM and AIE. Let the universities pollute other realms of academia and leave the course content practical and specialised.

EMPLOY PEOPLE FROM THE INDUSTRY. WORK WITH THE INDUSTRY.

The promise that next gen console titles will require large teams may offer respite from the dilemma, but the workforce needs to have the correct skills to be employable in the first place.

I'll put an end to this book I'm writing by saying that my ideas might be a bit over the top, but that's only my perfect world solution. The talent will always find its way to the top, be it through networking, reputation, or forums such as sumea.

Scott.

I know there is alot more to this topic then what I'm going to write but I just wanted to agree with one thing and disagree with one thing.

First off I agreed that there should be a limit of how many people they enter into 3D courses. With that said its not going to happen, new 3D courses are coming up because there is money in it. Schools want to get people in so they can fill there pockets. As far as I see it they don't care if the people have any skill they just want them in so they can take there money.

Where I did my schooling alot of people got a piece of paper saying they had passed while during the year they had not finshed assignments and when they did it wasn't very good. Its sending out the wrong message [:(!]. In the industry you have to keep your work standard up and have it done on time or the whole project suffers.

Anyways I do disagree that the Industry in australia isn't doing well. Irrational games has just brought out Tribes Vengence, Which is up there of the most top of the line games. The Australian industry is also growing and is getting alot more funding then it used to. I realy see Australia taking alot of the industry up over time.

With that all said.. When I read the topic I thought the topic was going to be a little different. When I was younger I loved to play games and still do but there was a point where I have to say cut down on the gaming and more art work. If I did this sooner I would of been in the industry sooner.

Hazard, I agree with you entirly. I'm a student at QANTM and i found it kinda amusing actually when a lead from Krome told a rooms full of us:

"The top 5-10 students in this room *might* have a chance at getting an interview"

i laughed at the resonse of some people (not out loud cos that would be rude :) ). there are a few of us that have discussed this a lot and long ago realised that NO-ONE is going to get a job right out of the course. so it came as no shock when it was told to my face. still, a large deal of the room did, and i guess that proves your point that most people arnt aware of this.

not to sound offensice to other people in my course, but i see a lot of low quality work (compared to pro standard that is). you just know they're not goig to get a job at the end. i was one of these people last year (i completed the dip screen at qantm) and thought that my work was pretty good. and while i wasnt erxpecting to get a job, i was at least hoping for some interest at the exhibition night. i got next to nothing (in fact the most interest i got was the week before at AGDC). i now look at last year's work and realise how dodge it really was.

that's not to say that no-one will ever get a job though. out of a course the ones that will get a job are the ones that go away and practice for 6, 12, 18, 24, whatever more months until they're good enough. the course can teach you the skills, but you have to get good at them.

this year i'm doing the degree at qantm and from my advance standing from the diploma i finish in may next year. i dont know if i'll be good enough then to at least getan interview. but i do know that i will be good enough sooner or latter - cos i am determined to get i and will practice day after day until i am good enough. and i think that's what most students dont realise -you cant just do your animation assessments, stick them on a demo reel and expect a call. you've got to do wholelot more than that.

at least that's the way i see it.

I'm doing a double degree in IT and Multimedia at uni and I definately know that its not going to get me into any jobs. But what it has provided me with is an opportunity to learn about things I never quite got around to really study. Programming, Multimedia, Web Development, its all helped me tune my decisions into what I may or may not want to do in the future.

I know that I will only get into the industry if I put in the hard yards, and if I don't, I only have myself to blame.

i think a lot of people that are interested in games dev are just big fans of the games they play... kinda how a lot of people will sing their favourite pop stars tune or try to play a simple version of their favourite song...

nothing wrong with that... except their favourite guitarist, and the creators behind their favourite game, have a lot of skill and practice and spends a lot of time developing their craft. I've never done a games course... and I was already under the impression that they'd be "primers" for people wanting to go further with a skill. ...same as a short music course I did. Soo many students were gobsmacked trying to finger chords and learn modes and were even 'annoyed' that you had to learn theory. They just wanted to be instant rock stars...

quote:in my course, but i see a lot of low quality work
...same story as that music course i mentioned. lots of people are bent on quick fixes, thinking a music course will make them the next [insert fav muso]. you cannot become an artist (digital, musical... etc) from a course. ...a short course (in my opinion)should teach you how to wield the 'tool', the artist then sculpts intuitively with it.

quote:Originally posted by Major Clod

I'm doing a double degree in IT and Multimedia at uni

is that the InfEnv and MMDesign course out at UQ Ipswich? :)

quote:From a class roll of somewhere in the 30's to begin with - Only 12 - 15 remained just like he said.

I find this to be very true. Although last year in my class (AIE) we only had one "dropout" (bloody joel leaving us in the lurch to go work for CA :P), there was probably a good half or more of the class that didn't seem to be willing to put in the hard yards that is required. I'm not neccessarily trying to find fault with people here, it's much like you said. People expect game dev to be fun and games, but then when the real hard work starts coming along they find themselves not enjoying it, and you can't really blame someone for not showing to class if they hate it.

quote:Leave the specialised training to organisations such as QANTM and AIE. Let the universities pollute other realms of academia and leave the course content practical and specialised.
Maybe for artistic stuff, but based on last years experience they still have a ways to go before they can compete with university degrees in the coding dept. I think they will improve quickly, but there are still a number of issues they (AIE at least) need to resolve, i won't go on about them here too much though. Certainly the education at these institutes isn't neccessarily *bad*, but i think that for coding students without a previous programming background, there is a lot left uncovered.

quote:Where I did my schooling alot of people got a piece of paper saying they had passed while during the year they had not finshed assignments and when they did it wasn't very good. Its sending out the wrong message . In the industry you have to keep your work standard up and have it done on time or the whole project suffers.

One of my major gripes last year :) These "specialist" institutions will never reach a high standing among employers while they continue to put the good, the bad, and the "was never in the running"s in the same basket.

But in the end, it all comes down to the person, how badly they want it, and how hard they are willing to work for it. Schooling can help provide direction, resources and many other things, but all of that means nothing without the students own hard work. It's been said time and time again hasn't it!
CYer, Blitz

heh, same in architecture. First design lecture, take a look around, 3 out of 4 of you will not become architects... (cough, programming is more fun anyrate)

well, im in year 10 so this applies to me soon. this is maybe a little off topic but from an artist point of view, i personally am looking at doing a fine arts (3 yrs) type course to widen my options then doing a shorter 3d course. This in theory should allow for work in fields other than pure games ie film advertising and the like, if i need to. So thats what im thinking of doing when i do have to decide,
my question is whether you think this is worth it or if i should close down my options and just go for 3d design type course?

conundrum: that depends on what you really want to get into. i want to get into games, that's it. so that's what i'm concentrating on. i cant draw and i dont like doing it. i can draw well enought for my own idea sketches for modeling, but other than that i dont do it, i just concentrate on my 3d. i have often found that good drawing skills really help 3d art, but i simply cant do it and dont like it (so i could never see a 3 year course through - i didnt like the 1 trimester of drawing this year at qantm!) so i've had a harder time learning modeling and anatomy than my 2d artistic friends. but that's not going to stop me from keeping at it.

anyway back to the game's course: my biggest grip with qantm is that it dosnt teach enough. some of the rubbish subjects we had first trimester i couldnt find anything to do with games in, and their asessments had no relevance what-so-ever. none since have been so bad, but still there is a lot that is useful, such as copywrite law, but not what we really need to be taught. granted the course is an animation major, but it really should be a games major, including into to advanced classes in everything from modeling, rigging, animation, and photoshop & texturing. not to mention classes on lighting, compositing, dynamics and such. we touch on most of this stuff, but not in enough depth. infact most things you have to learn yourself - the tutors are great and we woulddnt be anywhere without them. i know i've bugged them heaps with questions while trying to figure out stuff that was never taught in class. photoshop is the worst example - i had to learn that off another student and my own messing around. thankfully though it's starting to change, a lot of us made quite a fuss about this earlier in the year and we're starting to see results, but unfortunatly any real change is likly to come after i finish.
still QANTM has run a great course, and i've learnt a lot from it, it's just sad that they arnt teaching so much more.

Like I said on MSN, interesting topic Haz :)
CAnt really comment since Im not in the biz nor have I done any TAFE/Uni course.
A good read especially since Im thinking about doing a course.

quote:Leave the specialised training to organisations such as QANTM and AIE. Let the universities pollute other realms of academia and leave the course content practical and specialised.
I don't agree here, universities teach as well as private sector, if not alot better, it may not always be games specific but at Uni you might get a 3 year course in animation compared to a 1 year short course in the private sector, who would you hire as an animator?

Also I went to QANTM and while I'm working in the industry now I wouldn't really attribute QANTM for me getting in, in fact I went in knowing it wouldn't, it actually took a year more of hard slog after leaving and thats when I learnt the most.

quote:EMPLOY PEOPLE FROM THE INDUSTRY. WORK WITH THE INDUSTRY.
Easy enough said but we still have a small industry and in times of prosperity they are all hired, unfortunately for the guys/girls trying to get in that means hiring imports, when you need someone fast you can't be wasting time training them.

quote:The promise that next gen console titles will require large teams may offer respite from the dilemma, but the workforce needs to have the correct skills to be employable in the first place.

Although there may be a need for more employees, its unfortunately going to be people who already have basic games experience, next gen stuff isn't easy to create, there are stricter guidlines and workflows as well as alot of new software to learn, if you couldn't cut it with last gen the chance of getting in now is a hell of a lotter slimmer, shitty fact but true.

But getting to the question, I think there are 2 major problems:

Firstly, people think games development is some hollywood-like cool lifestyle, full of LAN parties and snorting coke off the boobs of booth babes.

EEEEERRR!! Wrong, its bloody hard work, long, stressful hours, with no million $$ paycheck, lack of sleep, lose of social life, you don't see as much of your family and friends compared to a 9-5 job and its resonably unstable too boot.

To be honest unless youre a masochistic bastard like myself you're better off mentaly working for freedom. [:P] lol.

Secondly, people take a 1 or 2 year course in games development thinking they'll be hired straight after leaving.
These courses just touch on the basics of alot of aspects of games but don't define even one properly.

Jack of all trades, master of none sort of thing.

The thing it gave me was the chance to find like minded people, contacts, drive and workflows.

Now that all sounds really scarey if your trying to break in but more and more its becoming a very specialised field, you wouldn't expect to do a 1 year course in lighting and get a job at Weta doing King Kong so why do people think that about games?

In the end its all up to hard work, really hard work, drive, drive, decent contacts, drive, alot of luck and most importantly, the honesty to look in the mirror and ask yourself, can I now, or will I soon be able to create assets as amazingly good as the stuff I see when I play games?

Conundrum: Don't underestimate the value of a good fine arts degree or any other University training, you will get a great base of knowledge to work from and can do a short course later.
That doesn't mean its the only way, I never studied at Uni and I'm working in the industry but I think my chances of getting work earlier would have been higher if I had.

One word of advice, with regards to the 3D artists sending reels in.

If you can't draw but are shit hot at 3D please get someone else to do your concepts for the models you make.
A model thats done well will still suffer if you follow a bad design, too many decent modellers ruin there chances by modelling to the letter from bad concepts.

quote:Firstly, people think games development is some hollywood-like cool lifestyle, full of LAN parties and snorting coke off the boobs of booth babes.
You crack me up Malus.

I agree that most people trying to get into the indusrty is under estimating the workload and how crazy deadlines can get. After all at the end of the day its business and everyones trying to make a buck. Its hard working your skills up to a level where you are employable and once you do get some paid work it doesn't get easier.

When I was working on the intro cg for the e3 dvd this year the last month me and two others were working about 16 - 20 hours a day 6 - 7 days a week just to get it out before game spots version (which in every reveiw said ours was better even game spots review). Yeah I know that's getting a bit hardcore and its not a game dev enviroment, but thats just one of my experience as an example to how demand 3D work can be. So you really have to enjoy 3D, since sometimes thats all you will have time for.

quote:A model thats done well will still suffer if you follow a bad design, too many decent modellers ruin there chances by modelling to the letter from bad concepts.
my biggest problem :( i cant drawn, i can come up with an idea fora cool character, etc. but i cant develop that into a good concept. my best work to date has been off other's concepts.

Quite some interesting feedback generated here !

Thanks to all who have replied so far, but when it comes down to it - there really is no way to get these main points across to students unless they are willing to come along to places like Sumea and read a post just like this one - OR be lucky enough to have a lecturer that is willing to risk his job by saying "This course is going to turn you inside out mentally, the games industry is no joke, if your shoulders arent broad enough to take massive strain - you should probably choose something else for a profession"

USF: I agree with about Australia doing well with the games industry - and I believe its *definately* picking up - but if your lucky enough to get a peek inside the developers production rooms, take a good look at how many imports there are in the team. Thats really what im talking about, youd be surprised at how often the " We need talent and cant afford the time & money to train someone, so get someone from overseas " thing happens.

DavidCoen: I imagined there would be similar circumstances for other professions, thanks for sharing! Im wondering if there can be anything really done about the ignorance factor which is probably built up by the controvesial media and hype that surrounds the games industry.

Now ive worked in several different careers quite different from what i do now - and i can honestly say none of them were as demanding mentally, physically ( drained, tired ) as games dev.

Ill never forget a quote from my Hero, Hironobu Sakaguchi of Square Enix I believe he says it best when he commented " Each member of the staff pushes themselves further than they have ever been pushed, day after day and night after night and when everyone has reached that limit and they simply cannot go any further, we have a result. And I hope it reflects in our work " <--- (Rough english translation) [:D]

I think Steven Stahlberg is on the right path and doing somethign fantastic for the industry in India ( from memory??? ) whereby he is starting a Games / CG school that will contain low class numbers... of say 5 - 10 and the students will be hand selected from the masses to study under these absolute masters of digital and traditional art. These masters are willing to share there secrets and knowledge to people that obviously are at a point in there skills where they have put in many, many hours of practise - that in itself would be the greatest treasure any games artist could possibly hope for.

Spread the knowledge!!! Down with secrecy !!!

I think .au and .nz need a Steven Stalhberg [:P]

Anyways thats enough from me for now..

I think anyone that goes through the manufacturing process of the education system and expects to get into an industry as specialised as gaming is a little cuckoo.

You're right about the standards not being up to par with overseas... I don't really get it. Sometimes I wonder if it's laziness.

One friend at uni, I told him to look at the stuff online and try to be as good as they are. Don't worry about what the lecturer thinks or the marks you get. That's all superflous stuff that allows you to get the piece of paper at the end, it wont get you the skills.

I think with the internet and growing community presence (such as this site) has definitely helped raise awareness about whats out there and the skills you need.

But yeah at the moment, I think Australia is way too small to have an expert like steven stahlberg setting up such a specialised course. Chances are, these experts are all busily working away in a game companies as it is. :D

Maybe when there's an over saturation of talent to the point where they become jobless, then they will begin specialised schools in an attempt to utlise their skills in some way. Ironically, these schools wont be needed since there's already an abundance of talent. lol.

quote:Originally posted by urgrund

quote:Originally posted by Major Clod

I'm doing a double degree in IT and Multimedia at uni

is that the InfEnv and MMDesign course out at UQ Ipswich? :)

Ahh, no its actually the IT/Creative Industries course at QUT Kelvin Grove/Gardens Point.

quote:Originally posted by HazarD

but if your lucky enough to get a peek inside the developers production rooms, take a good look at how many imports there are in the team.

USF takes a look around, hmm.. we have 2 guys from England and 1 guy from Russia. The rest are Australian. Its been said before.. its been said over and over again its not about where you've trained but on the character of the person.

USF : Fantastic! - You probably cannot say but what roles are the English and Russian playing in the company ? Juniors ? Seniors ? Leads ?

And i have to disagree somewhat with the comment regarding being a likeable chap or having a good character. If thats what Dev houses are hiring then we would have BIG KEV modelling stuff for Tribes [:P]

Your skills matter a great deal to ensure that initial reservation for an interview. ( or im hoping to god that they do otherwise that doesnt bode well at all )

What im trying to pick apart is that where are all the top 2 - 3 students from design schools / games related courses ending up - It can't be in the industry in AU theres simply not enough of us to compensate.

And why is the level of workmanship below sea level here ? I have family back home in Canada and Friends in many countries working in the games industry and ive seen numerous reels from 20 year old students trying to get their break in the industry from these places - they are so far above a good 90% of the reels ive seen here its not even funny.

Im pointing the finger at schooling and maybe a general laziness, unless someone can shed some light on something thats completely slipping past me. Sure there are more people in the US / UK etc but that cant be the only reason.

I am a gamer and a game dev. I am also in the finishing stages of completing my Networking assignments for IT.

I know someone who has a diploma in IT and is working in the vineyards and he dislikes it.

Game development is hard work.

You missed the point I'm not talking about "likeable chap or having a good character". I'm talking about where ever you come from if you put the effort in and try your best you can be as good as anyone. The people who do well at schools are the ones who but in the hours to go past what the teacher is teaching and push yourself.

Are you saying I can't become a Lead artist or Senior artist just because I don't come from England or Russia...

USF : Firstly i think you hit the nail on the head by saying it doesnt matter where you come from as long as you put in the hard yards and push yourself. So the main reason for the average lack of abilities would be that we are just lazy down this end of the world ?

And no I never said that at all, dont take it personally. You can become lead artist no problem if you ( like metioned above ) put in the hard yards.

You've actually sparked something that I think would be a major factor, and that is the industry being so young here, for there to be any hope of catching up to Bioware / Blizzard we need to hire guys from these places so we can drain them of their knowledge and use it as another tool to help us close the gap.

I don't think our youth is really the biggest factor in competing with OS.

Every few years or so we all end up using the same new tech, new procedures, new software etc anyway, more its a lack of drive and self belief.

Australians are a pretty relaxed bunch and while thats a good thing as a society I find it impacts a bit too much on us proffessionally.

And we don't really take ourselves that seriously internationally, just read some of the comments posted here, too young, too small, too stupid, its none of that, its more a belief that you can stick it to the goliaths out there.

The only other factor is that these bigger companies have a good financial base behind them, but even they started from small companies.

As for our lack of new skilled juniors, unfortunately I've noticed it too when portfolios come thruogh.

But in fairness its getting harder to make competetive assets, it also takes longer.

I do think schools do need to up the ante, but people need to take the initiative and learn for themselves also, hell we have the internet, its not like the yanks and poms have a secret source of information they aren't letting us know about. [:P]

quote:What im trying to pick apart is that where are all the top 2 - 3 students from design schools / games related courses ending up
Centrelink

and as for quality of student work, i put it down to training. at qantm most of what i learn in terms of real practical modeling skills is what i learn myself. we dont have any classes to teach us exactly "what is polyflow", "how to construct a face for lipsyncing", "how to rig a freaking sholder of rcorrect defformation" (i'm still perplexed about that one). the tutors are a great source of help for these problems, but the problem is it's not taught in class in the first place! they have into like "this is how you extrude a polygon, great, not you know how to model a character". there is a difference between teaching how to use the tools and how to realy model.
texturing i wont even start on cos that's not even mentioned in the course outline :?
animation is not so bad, as seeing as though that's what the course is based on we have a fair bit of lecturing on that.

Why Australian game dev students are bellow par is in an interesting question. I think our small population plays an important part, as our top few percent of students is only a fraction of the size of the top few percent of students from OS.

However, the problem seems to be that too many students who aren?t the top few percent, are not motivated enough to take their skills to the necessary level. Many students don?t understand the need for massive self-motivation, and therefore do not gain the necessary skills for the work place. And it?s not just in games but also across the whole IT sector and probably other industries also.

I think the main reason for this could be the antiquated (paramilitary) school system?
Many students straight out of school aren?t able to fully commit to a career, and with something as specialised as games, it?s only the most determined and dedicated students that will succeed.

I suppose that many game art graduates end up in some area of digital design apart form games. And maybe the top game programming grads that don?t get straight into games find alternative programming work?

don't agree, saw lots of crap demo reels while in canada. (we would watch them while eating lunch and then place in large garbage bag)

Perhpas we have a figment of human observation. We notice the local crap as it is easy to find, but tend to only get access to the better stuff from oversea (either it is more difficult to send casets overseas so jimmy-retard doesn't bother, but joe-godlike-skill does take the time/money to send it)?

or, ok, as a generalisation, the security of wellfare breeds lazyness.

re. palantir: I know of a few programmers that would like to make games, but sick to database maitanace type work as it pays 4x as much....

quote:
re. palantir: I know of a few programmers that would like to make games, but sick to database maitanace type work as it pays 4x as much....

..and lots of programmers who know well what it's like to put in an 80-100+ hour week when it's needed, and would rather do it on a game than a database system any day, (even assuming the pay really varies that much)

lazyness, when australian workers are amongst the hardest workers in the world? i guess it maybe younger people, i know i can be pretty lazy i guess...

It may be to do with trainning, i know at highschool art class was a what we called "bludge" subject then the last 2 years of highschool your pressured into the math/physics stuff and not many goto art side of things!

I know personaly its hard to get a job, ive been looking for about 7 months now, i can't even get work experience. Work experience woul dbe great then i can see what im doing wrong and improve what im doing, but Aussie companys seem ot dislike work exp. for some reason?

I would expect also that the best of the best would get employment overseas where theres more money and more games companys?(the brain drain as they call it).

i remember my bludge subject at highschool: drama. me and a mate spent most of the time 'rehersing' a sword fight scene from romeo and juliet. we broke so many brooms and bent so many polls the props room was virutally empty by the end! loads of fun!